Note to Ron Paul fans: Don’t make your own currency

It doesn’t matter how loyal some of Ron Paul’s fans are — if they start making their own money, and then put it into circulation, some nice federal agents are going to pay them a visit.

Federal agents on Thursday raided the Evansville, Ind., headquarters of the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve Act and Internal Revenue Code (Norfed), an organization of “sound money” advocates that for the past decade has been selling a private currency it calls “Liberty Dollars.” The company says it has put into circulation more than $20 million in Liberty Dollars, coins and paper certificates it contends are backed by silver and gold stored in Idaho, are far more reliable than a U.S. dollar and are accepted for use by a nationwide underground economy.

Norfed officials said yesterday that the six-hour raid occurred just as its six employees were mailing out the first batch of 60,000 “Ron Paul Dollars,” copper coins sold for $1 to honor the candidate, who is a longtime advocate of abolishing the Federal Reserve. The group says it has shipped out about 10,000 silver Ron Paul Dollars that sold for $20 and about 3,500 of the copper $1 coins. But it said the agents seized more than 50,000 of the copper coins — more than two tons’ worth — plus smaller amounts of the silver coins and gold and platinum Ron Paul Dollars, which sell for $1,000 and $2,000.

“They took everything, all of the computers, everything but the desks and chairs,” the company’s founder and head, Bernard von NotHaus, said in a telephone interview from his home in Miami. “The federal government really is afraid.”

That last quote actually speaks to the predictable reaction — that the feds’ raid is part of some kind of conspiracy. Indeed, the WaPo noted that reports of the raid offered Paul supporters “a new source of outrage and motivation.”

I realize that not all Ron Paul supporters are going to defend selling a private currency, or printing coins with Paul’s picture. For that matter, the campaign itself was quick to emphasize that it has “no affiliation” with Ron Paul Dollars.

But the fact that campaign backers were troubled by this at all is kind of odd.

…Paul’s supporters said the seizure of the coins is sure to further stoke support for the campaign.

“People are pretty upset about this,” said Jim Forsythe, head of the Paul Meetup group in New Hampshire, who said he recently ordered 150 of the copper coins. “The dollar is going down the tubes, and this is something that can protect the value of their money, and the Federal Reserve is threatened by that. It’ll definitely fire people up.”

Von NotHaus said agents also raided Sunshine Minting in Coeur D’Alene, Idaho, a company that makes the organization’s coins. He said agents seized huge pallets of silver and gold, worth more than $1 million, that the organization says back the Liberty Dollars. Sunshine Minting did not return calls seeking comment.

The Indianapolis bureau of the FBI referred calls to the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Western District of North Carolina in Charlotte. That office’s spokeswoman, Suellen Pierce, declined to comment. But bloggers at the libertarian Reason Foundation posted online a 35-page copy of the affidavit for a search warrant filed last week in Asheville, N.C., laying out the government’s case against Norfed. Pierce said the search warrant had been accidentally made public and has since been sealed.

In the affidavit, an FBI special agent states that he is investigating Norfed for federal violations including “uttering coins of gold, silver, or other metal,” “making or possessing likeness of coins,” mail fraud, wire fraud, money laundering and conspiracy. “The goal of Norfed is to undermine the United States government’s financial systems by the issuance of a non-governmental competing currency for the purpose of repealing the Federal Reserve and Internal Revenue Code,” he states.

Apparently, the “undermine the United States government’s financial systems” seems to strike a chord with some folks in this crowd.

I vaguely recall some of Howard Dean’s most fervent supporters pushing the boundaries a bit in 2004, but I can’t think of any comparable group of supporters to Ron Paul fans. Ever.

and the slew of paulbots overwhelming this thread to defend RP 1, 2, 3……

  • “…copper coins sold for $1 …”

    Is that 1 US Dollar or 1 “Liberty Dollar”? ‘Cause wouldn’t it be, uhm, hypocritical for Norfed to accept the former?

  • Ron Paul and his campaign apparently have nothing to do with minting or printing “Ron Paul Dollars,” so it isn’t fair to blame them for this fiasco.

    However, Ron Paul does have this “thing” about the Federal Reserve, so no doubt there is a lot of crossover between fans of an alternate currency and fans of Ron Paul.

    I expect that we will be hearing from them. Lots of them. Soon.

  • I ran across this article earlier. Too funny. It would have to be in southern Indiana too. Them’s my homeboys!

  • I believe you’ve mischaracterized what was going on here. Liberty Dollar did not pretend to create actual currency, but merely measures of copper/silver/gold stamped with the likenesses of various individuals. They’ve been doing it for years, but have only managed to create a few million in “currency” almost none of which is used for any purpose other than collection. While the coin has some value in the metal, which I suppose one could see as an investment, the true attraction has always been in the novelty of having coins with popular people on them, like Elvis, which I believe is another image on Liberty Dollar products.

    What has made some people cry “conspiracy” (wrongly in my view) is that Liberty Dollar has been doing this for years and only gets shut down on the eve of their first shipment of Ron Paul collection coins. The government’s very thin, very shabby pretense (followed by the obligatory laundry list of infractions that they trot out anytime they seize people’s property) probably adds to that perception. A few million in precious metals that are minted in such a way as to clearly denote that the coins are not currency cannot possibly “compete” with or “undermine” the trillions of federal reserve notes out there anymore than uncle Bob swapping a calf for a few stacks of wood would undermine the paper currency system.

    Of course its not a conspiracy, its just a plain old fashion abuse of power that the government is famous for. This is why the Founders didn’t put any authorization for “federal police” into the Constitution. They didn’t want the Revolutionary era equivalent of storm troopers busting down your door and seizing your property in the arbitrary enforcement of a legal code run amok. We’ve ignored that and this sort of thing, or worse, is the result.

    As an aside, your comparison of Dr. Paul’s supporters to Howard Dean’s supporters (which as I recall primarily consisted of the mainstream news media hyping him up) is without merit. I suspect the author of this piece realizes that since the comparison is slipped in with no supporting arguments in the most prejudicial way possible. Nice try at trying to leave a negative impression with your readers without having to exercise any intellectual effort, but no cigar, as the saying goes…

  • “…said agents seized huge pallets of silver and gold, worth more than $1 million…”

    Once again, whose Dollars?

    Also, if we’re talkin’ about silver and gold, how many “huge pallets” were seized? I don’t think it would take many pallets of gold to add up to $1 million(US).

  • Yeah, Ron Paul is a nutjob, but what exactly is illegal about this? It’s not like they were counterfeiting fake federal reserve notes. They used copper and silver to make coins that are not duplicates of real U.S. coins. So what? Places like the Franklin Mint do that all the time. What crime was committed?

  • I’d be very surprised if the FBI’s case rests solely on making round pieces of metal because that ain’t a crime. You can’tmake and use coins for legal tender (you can make paper money). A friend who has been following this case said these guys were careful to make sure they weren’t crossing any legal lines and the coins weren’t being used as legal tender so unless we say this is an example of extreme FBI bungling, what’s the basis for the raid?

    And, I’ve always heard Evansville, IN is a hot spot for militias.

    Or put it another way. If these people weren’t also Ron Paul supporters I don’t think anyone would say it was a conspiracy.

    My money’s on illicit weapons being somewhere in the mix.

  • The feds are going to lose this case.

    Erik, how is Ron Paul a nut job? Because he favors a humble foreign policy and sound money? Look a little deeper and you’ll find the real nutjob’s are the one’s calling Ron Paul a nutjob. Those are the guys who think our rapidly falling dollar is “ok” and also want us to spread the war into Iran. NOW THAT IS NUTS!

    Our troops and economists back Ron Paul. Who backs you? Fox News and their paid pundits? Move along sheeple!

    Learn a little before you open your stupid mouth or post your ignorant comments!

  • “Those are the guys who think our rapidly falling dollar is “ok” and also want us to spread the war into Iran.”

    Can you say “Strawman”? I knew you could.

  • They aren’t serious….Ron Paul dollars at the food store….Give me a break…why is the government so paranoid? You can change the currency without without the cooperation of the elected government who trades in their national currency. This raid is just stupid…they can claim replacing the federal reserve but this isn’t going to do it unless all the banks agree to give it out as currency.

  • Bernard von NotHaus

    Really?!? That’s a name out of a Mel Brooks movie.
    “NOT haus, not NUT house… Headly, Headly Lamar”

  • “…your comparison of Dr. Paul’s supporters to Howard Dean’s supporters”

    Uh, that’s Dr. Dean, Pliny.

  • shnooky,

    I used the same referencing scheme to refer to both Dr. Dean and Dr. Paul. My first reference to each man was by full name and then my second reference was by last name with the “Dr.” modifier. Of course, I only mentioned Dr. Dean once in my original post so there was no opportunity to add the “Dr.” modifer. This is a fairly typical method of construction which has no connotation of favortism. While that was a nice try at attempting to imply I was slighting Dr. Dean it was not the case. I’m not sure whether you acted out of legitimate concerns for Dr. Dean’s reputation or merely as a lazy attempt to discredit my post as the workings of a shill by attacking something so transparently superficial, but in either case it wasn’t really necessary.

  • Yeah, I was just trying to yank your virtual chain. Also, as I recall, Dr. Dean’s supporters weren’t “the mainstream news media hyping him up” but rather a grass-roots effort spearheaded by the internet. Kind of like… uh… Dr. Paul.

  • shnooky

    I remember Dr. Dean’s campaign quite well and it was always characterized as a grass-roots effort, but for a considerable amount of time Dr. Dean got the “top tier” treatment from the mainstream media. I remember countless stories, on the nightly news no less, about how he was dominating the internet, raising big money, polling well in early primary states, and the “frontrunner” for the nominee. John Kerry, the eventual nominee, was almost written off during this period when he had to mortgage his home to raise cash for his campaign. While Dr. Paul has received some media attention most of it has been on the internet or at best on cable personality shows like Tucker Carlson. Dr. Paul has gotten much less mainstream coverage, even after his upsurge in support, than Dr. Dean or even than Senator Kerry got during his doldrums. Each article reporting on Dr. Paul is usually prefaced and concluded with a reiteration of the media’s overriding point: he cannot be elected. I have a feeling that no matter what Dr. Paul does the media will be reporting on his overriding inability to be elected up until the day he’s taking the oath of office. In any event the comparisons between Dr. Dean’s campaign and Dr. Paul’s are scant; pretty much ending with “they both had an internet following of some note.”

  • bjbotts-

    “…they can claim replacing the federal reserve but this isn’t going to do it unless all the banks agree to give it out as currency…”

    Then why this from the cited article?
    “The company says it has put into circulation more than $20 million in Liberty Dollars, coins and paper certificates it contends are backed by silver and gold stored in Idaho, are far more reliable than a U.S. dollar and are accepted for use by a nationwide underground economy.” (emphasis added)

    Seems to me that Norfed(though maybe not the Paul coinsthemselves) is a tax dodgin’ scheme. You should read the Constitution. Specifically, Article I, Section 8, which contains clauses such as:

    The Congress shall have power
    to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States

    and

    To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures

    and

    To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States

    and, finally

    To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.

    And if Norfed is acceptin’ US Dollars fer their underground currency, they’re nothin’ but con-men.

  • To all the Ron Paul fans (like myself) that want to see him get elected, please please please read this:
    Keeping the Love in rEVOLution

    In regards to the Liberty Dollars, no-one ever claimed that they were “legal tender”. Those words have a very specific legal meaning, basically that if someone owes you money and they offer to pay you in legal tender, you MUST accept it, by government decree, and it is the only form of economic value by which the IRS will accept income tax payments.

    In the spirit of the volunteerism underlying classical liberal thought, private “money” like Liberty Dollars is tradeable for goods and services only if people agree to accept it voluntarily. But many people these days do accept it, because it is 100% backed by precious metal. That is you can redeem a note for the specified amount of gold or silver, and that’s how it retains its tradeable value.

    Fiat notes like the US dollar however are not redeemable for anything except another US dollar. The only reason it retains its tradeable value is because
    i) the government has backed it with coercive laws, including the need to pay income taxes
    ii) we the people do not really understand the nature of money and economic value, we are happy as long as we are all fooled enough to think this paper will retain its tradeable value, and/or
    iii) there is faith enough in the Treasury and Federal Reserve to manage the supply of money and credit in the economy (which has no limit but what is decided upon) so that the ones that we already hold/are earning do not lose their buying power.

    Economists will readily admit that modern fiat money is in many ways one big confidence trick, but most will say it is also enacted for our own collective benefit. It is therefore little wonder that people that have trust in their own ability to effectively manage the affairs of themselves and their community, tend to get cheezed off at fiat notes and the fatal conceit they represent.

  • It’s interesting timing that this totally legal fundraising enterprise should be busted by the Feds just as Kuchinik’s article of Impeachment against Chaney comes through and miraculously survives the vote.

    Bush’s empire is crumbling at the foundations. How predictable that they should try to squash it with a tighter fist. What fear they must have of people like Ron Paul and Dennis Kuchinik, who don’t fall for their BS.

    In response to this: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/11/8/123533/273 , I’d wonder if the Speaker isn’t trying hard to not look like she’s pushing for Impeachment, since she’d inherit the position of VP if Chaney were impeached.

    Yep, crumbling at the foundations…

  • The Gone Paul people have known about this for some time; funny they look to put distance between themselves and the funny-money-makers—now that they’ve been caught.

    And the argument that these “Paul Dollars” weren’t meant for circulation is completely ludicrous. There wouldn’t be a need to back the currency with gold and silver if the currency wasn’t intended for circulation—and Norfed itself claims that “it has put into circulation more than $20 million in Liberty Dollars, coins and paper certificates it contends are backed by silver and gold stored in Idaho, are far more reliable than a U.S. dollar and are accepted for use by a nationwide underground economy.”

    Those three words—“accepted for use”—is a bona fide confession that the currency is, indeed, being placed into circulation.

    This is just too funny. Some Gone-Paul-esque paleo-twits try to print their own money and put it into circulation, get caught, and thecampaign THEN denies knowledge? If Gone Paul himself is found to be implicit in this, then I think he’ll be trading his campaign for a prison cell.

    Even the thieves at Bu$hCo aren’t THIS stupid….

  • JT-

    Sorry to burst yer bubble, but the only connection between Paul and the raid is that Norfed, a.k.a. Liberty Dollar, issues the Paul coin. The investigation went on fer two years before the warrant was issued.

    I just read the FBI agent’s affadavit(pdf. here: http://www.johnlocke.org/site-docs/meckdeck/pdfs/USAVLibdoll.pdf ) that was used to obtain the search warrant, and while the uttering and publishing implications are present, it seems to me that the main case will be made fer wire fraud. It looks like the Norfed/Liberty Dollar folks are usin’ an appeal to anti-Federal Reserve “patriots” sense of non-compliance and rebellion in order to separate those “patriots” from their US Dollars.

    If I were a Paulist- and I’m definitely not!- I’d be takin’ a very close look at my fellow travelers. To use an old saw, lie down with dogs and yer apt to catch fleas.

    ps- KuciniCH and ChEney.

  • JT-

    “…since she’d inherit the position of VP if Chaney were impeached.”

    That statements wrong in a few different ways.

    First, an impeachment is simply an indictment by the House of Representatives. Cheney could only be removed from office if then convicted by 2/3 of the Senate on the impeachment charge(or if he were to be otherwise incapacitateded- by, say a stroke or a car accident- or by his death).

    Second, if Cheney were to be removed from office, Pelosi wouldn’t become the VP. Yes, she would be first in line to replace Bush if he were to leave office early- but she would devolve back to second in line when a new VP was nominated and confirmed by a majority in both houses of Congress.

  • I thought that “currency” and “money” meant legal tender which Liberty Dollars are not. But we’re so used to the counterfeit Federal Reserve Notes that are manipulated by a cartel of druglord banksters in secret that we’re supposed to believe that “fractionalized interest” inflation and the outright creation of money out of thin air is sound monetary policy and that the Liberty Dollar is somehow a threat to our economy.

    As Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution states unambiguously, “The Congress shall have Power…To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin.”

    How does not the participation of “quasi-private” central banks in the pyramid scheme which regulates the value of Money–the legal tender of the United States, the U.S. Dollar–violate the Constitution?

    I don’t need a degree in economics to recognize intentional obfuscation and cloaked control.

  • This is ridiculous. No one said this was ‘money’. It’s gold like everyone else buys and sells and the gov’t is being Nazis to confiscate it and try to smear Ron just because his face was on one of the coins.

  • JKap-

    Ya should read the pdf I linked to in my comment @ 24^^. It cites the statutes the FBI is claimin’ may have been violated. This story isn’t quite what the headline of the OP makes it out to be.

  • NH-

    Once again, the case has little to nothin’ to do with Paul. The headline here may be a bit, uhm…deceivin’…but that’s on TCR, not the Feds. Follow the links provided in the post and you’ll see what I’m talkin’ ’bout.

  • Quoting the Constitution here doesn’t seem to make sense.

    The question is, why would this be illegal? Article I section 8 of the Constitution does not outline any laws whatsoever—it enumerates the powers of Congress.

    In fact, it explicitly states that congress must exercise its powers by…passing laws. So if the government indeed has any current constitutional power to stop someone from minting a toy currency, you should be able to point me to an actual law.

    Again, why would it be illegal to mint a custom non-US currency? Andy why aren’t Ithaca Hours or eGold equally illegal?

  • If the Paulies were 10,000 times smarter than they are, they’d be stupid enough to be supporters of Ayn Rand.

  • Lionel:

    Fiat notes like the US dollar however are not redeemable for anything except another US dollar.

    Tell that to all the people I’ve ever purchased goods and services from in my life. Seems to me that the US dollar is very redeemable. In fact I’d say it’s the most liquid currency in the history of the world, considering all the transactions made with it today.

    It’s simpleminded to measure a currency’s value against one arbitrary yardstick, like gold. Gold has no “intrinsic” value, any more than dollars do. The value of gold is as much a matter of fiat as anything else.

    What matters is not how much gold I can get for a dollar. What matters is how much food, shelter, clothing, heat, electricity, travel, etc. I can get for a dollar… and how many dollars I get for my labor… and how many dollars of interest I can earn, or must pay, in financial transactions.

    Helpful further reading:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect

  • Xcott-

    Okay, I’ll cede ya some ground here. The affadavit beggin’ the search warrant cites US Code Title 18, Sections 1341, 1343, 1956 and 1957 as the reasoning behind the search. These sections all deal with wire fraud.

    Also cited in the affadavit- but NOT as the reason fer the search warrant- is Title 18, Section 486(here’s the pdf of the affadavit again, citations of Section 486 are on pages 22, 33 & 34 of this document: http://www.johnlocke.org/site-docs/meckdeck/pdfs/USAVLibdoll.pdf ).

    Section 486 deals with Uttering. Here’s how it reads:

    Sec. 486. Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal

    Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title (!1) or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. AMENDMENTS 1994 – Pub. L. 103-322, which directed the amendment of this section by substituting “fined under this title” for “fined not more than $2,000”, was executed by making the substitution for “fined not more than $3,000”, to reflect the probable intent of Congress.

    The US Mint, at some point prior to 10/28/2006, issued a public warning to Norfed/Liberty Dollar and it’s potential “customers”, citin’ this piece of law (pdf pages 33 & 34), but the company persisted.

    I’ve gotta stop at this here to point out that the Feds aren’t arguin’ a case of gold standard versus fiat currency. That’s an interestin’ argument, and I think it needs to be addressed. The confidence of the US Dollar has been built, fer decades, on the back of petroleum, and that isn’t the safest commodity with which to build right now.

    But that’s not the case here. If yer a student of US history, ya may recall when the nation functioned uneasily under the Articles of Confederation. One of the major drawbacks of the Articles was that they allowed fer states to issue their own currency. It was horrible fer commerce, both interstate and international, because the standards of the separate currencies varied and fluctuated greatly. That is why the Constitution was written to include a centralized control of the money. Competin’ currencies screw with commerce, they screw with the ability of the Congress to levy taxes. And if Paulists have a problem with that, I have a hard time acceptin’ them as the Constitutionalists they claim to be, and I can’t accept at all that they’d be Constitutional Originalists at all.

  • So apparently the manufacturing of metal coins of original design intended for use as current money is illegal. Wow. I would like to see that one go to court.

    I guess that the legality of Ithaca Hours would then hinge on whether it’s printed on paper or minted as coins? This seems like an arbitrary distinction. And casino tokens? I guess they are only used for exchange within the casino, which isn’t broad enough?

    I doubt the courts today would hold a strict interpretation of the meaning of current money. Surely if someone intended to fool you into thinking their Elvis Dollar counted as real money it would fall under the law. But to sell medallions that customers can voluntarily trade or exchange, with no claims of value in the US currency system?

    Finally, I bet 20 fake dollars that the wire fraud claims rest upon the other claims of utterance. I.e., that it becomes wire fraud because I sell you toy currency that the feds think is illegal.

  • Maximus wrote:

    Tell that to all the people I’ve ever purchased goods and services from in my life. Seems to me that the US dollar is very redeemable. In fact I’d say it’s the most liquid currency in the history of the world, considering all the transactions made with it today.

    It’s simpleminded to measure a currency’s value against one arbitrary yardstick, like gold. Gold has no “intrinsic” value, any more than dollars do. The value of gold is as much a matter of fiat as anything else.

    Yes that is correct, but you must also understand that the dollar is subject to the laws of supply and demand just as much as gold is. Now how easy is it to issue gold coins and how easy is it to print new bills and notes?

    Go find the charts man – dollar is down vs oil, down vs euros, down vs wheat, loonies, silver, gold, pounds, yuans, etc..

    The dollar’s going down. Are your wages going up? Do you have investments in dollars? Are the value of those investments sinking with the dollar?

    The Federal Reserve no longer lets us know how much money is in the supply, they don’t publish the M3 statistic, and they’ve also severed food and energy as measurements of inflation.

  • U.S. Constitution, Article 1, Section 10, Clause 1:

    “No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts; pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, or grant any title of nobility.”

  • Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal […]

    I can’t help but wonder… What is the Feds/FBI’s official position vis the character in one of the Brothers Grimm fairy tales who uttered not just gold and silver coins but also pearls and diamonds? Legalese really is the worst kind of assault on the English language.

    Also, it’d be interesting to follow the fate of all those “pallets of gold and silver” seized by FBI. Were they properly receipted? Will they be returned, *to the owners*, eventually? It’s really the word “pallet” in conjunction with something valuable which I find intriguing. Seems to me I remember pallets of dollars, which had nobody could account for properly, somewhere in the sorry story of Iraq invasion…

  • Xcott-

    ” I bet 20 fake dollars that the wire fraud claims rest upon the other claims of utterance. I.e., that it becomes wire fraud because I sell you toy currency that the feds think is illegal.”

    Didjya read the pdf? ‘Cause the FBI agent spelled out, quite explicitly, how he came to the conclusion that the Norfed/Liberty Dollar people were manipulatin’ the value of their “currency” fer their own financial gain.

    And, again, from the WaPo article cited in the OP:

    “…The company says it has put into circulation more than $20 million in Liberty Dollars, coins and paper certificates it contends are backed by silver and gold stored in Idaho, are far more reliable than a U.S. dollar and are accepted for use by a nationwide underground economy.”

    Norfed/Liberty Dollar is pushin’ the fact that they are issuin’ a competitive currency! This isn’t Monopoly money we’re talkin’ about.

  • Damn, I paid $19.95 to Parker Brothers a few years ago for $15,140 in Monopoly money. Was I ripped off? Should I expect the feds to come a calling?

  • Ron Paul is a throw back, grounded in rural southern politics. Doesn’t trust government in particuliar Federal, cares not for international warfare and certainly not to defend corporate interest around the world. In many ways the surprise that Paul is doing this well says more about the change in the Republican Party as the core ideology moves from Wall Street towards the regional South. The southernization of the Republican Party has also created some tension in the Democratic party as it embraces the Republican Wall Street crowd, their money and desire to export jobs and manufacturing overseas. The latest campaigan money raising shows the Democrats way ahead of Republicans in money from the Wall street. Will be interesting to see how the big tent Democratic Party is able to combine the Unions, Wall Street and the left into a coherent party platform.

  • Regarding the comparisons to Dean’s campaign above, there are similarities and major differences.

    Dean did have a significant number of dedicated supporters using the internet–many more than Paul has. Another similarity is that some did spam blogs and engage in behavior which reflected badly upon Dean as is now happening (to a much greater degree) with Paul. The Paul supporters, although smaller in numbers, are more fanatic, and have many more tools now than were present in 2003 to track down every reference to Paul within moments of being posted.

    There is one major difference. The Dean campaign realized that if the goal was to increase support, some behavior on line was counterproductive. Joe Trippi and responsible Dean supporters took efforts to get the problem supporters to behave. So far there is no evidence that anyone associated with Paul has any understanding of appropriate netiquette or how they make Paul look like someone that no reasonable person would support.

    As the Paul supporters are unable to control their actions, there is now a bipartisan effort to rid the blogosphere of this problem:

    http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2378

  • Ron Chusid:

    I’m not sure how you came to the conclusion that Dr. Dean had more internet supporters than Dr. Paul currently does. If amounts of money raised are any indication Dr. Paul has the most support of any candidate thus far in terms of online activity.

    I’m also perplexed as to how you’ve come to the conclusion that Dr. Paul’s supporters are somehow crude, to synthesize your sweeping generalization into a succinct term. It is a bit ironic that you’re complaining about some nebulous group of people’s manners by using pejorative terms like “fanatics” to describe them. Fanatic, of course, is a word that comes from a latin term meaning one who is mad, generally in a nonconformist religious sense, which was also later used to mean “insane person.” Maybe you’re just being sloppy with your language here, but if your point is that people should be civil in their discussions with each other then perhaps calling the opposition insane, or even “uncritically zealous,” isn’t the way to open the dialogue.

    This brings me to my next point, which is that there is a great deal of caustic, venomous remarks being levied from those who oppose Dr. Paul which is recieving no attention. Apparently it is acceptable to characterize Dr. Paul’s supporters as unstable, rude, crass, and “insane,” but not worthy of your time to note such behavior coming from Dr. Paul’s detractors. Now you haven’t provided anything in the way of evidence to support your contention that the vast majority of Dr. Paul’s supporters lack “netiquette,” but I will point you to such behavior on the other side.

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1927363/posts
    Many posts on this website (some of this is in other threads besides the one directly pointed to) talking about Dr. Paul needing psychiatric medication, photoshopped pictures of him wearing tin-foil hats, pictures portraying his supporters as nerds, ugly hippies, and other similar things.

    http://moralauthority.wordpress.com/2007/05/17/ron-paul-is-a-crazy-nutbag/
    Headline: Ron Paul is a Crazy Nutbag; photoshopped imagine of Dr. Paul wearing a tin-foil hat and shaking Michael Moore’s hand. Dr. Paul’s supporters are called “lunatic-fringe” too stupid and tiny to be worth “educating.”

    http://www.brendan-nyhan.com/blog/2007/10/ron-paul-still-.html
    Headline: Ron Paul, Still Nutty; a handwritten letter by Dr. Paul to his supporters is disparaged as “unabomber-esque” and his supporters are characterized as “fringe.”

    I could go on, but I trust my point has been made. The other side is every bit as mean spirited and inarticulately rude as any supporter of Dr. Paul that I have ever seen. These detractors support others, by the way, like the rest of the field, Republican and Democrat. Freerepublic posters are big supporters of Rudy and Thompson as near as I can tell (for example), but no one ever sees anyone complaining about rude Rudy supporters harming their candidates image. This brings me to my final point and our one point of (almost) agreement. There is a bipartisan movement afoot to shut up Ron Paul supporters. The message of liberty is powerful and no one currently on the public dole of power and influence wants it getting out there. If Dr. Paul wins then those who want to usurp government authority for their own aggrandizement lose.

  • Some of you folks clearly believe that making coins is illegal. Are you saying that if I make “Martian Dollars” out of silver or gold, complete with an image of the planet on one side and a cartoon alien on the other, that it would be technically illegal? That makes no sense, at least no common sense.

    It seems like the Constitution allows Congress to make coins, but doesn’t prevent anyone else from doing it either (provided that you are not engaged in counterfeiting.)

    What a joke!

  • I don’t see what U.S. Constitution, Article 1, Section 10 has to do with this matter at all.

    That section does not outlaw the making of one’s own currency; it only prohibits what STATES can do, not people.

    Again, the constitution is the wrong document to read to decide if something is illegal. The constitution outlines the powers and duties of government entities, and says (almost) nothing about what actual people are allowed to do.

  • Maxi, Maxi, Maxi…….

    It seems you’re confusing the redeemable value of gold and silver certificates with the trading value of your fed-notes. Redeemable value is fixed, by linking a denomination of an instrument to a specific quantity of a commodity (e.g., gold, silver, or anything else universal value — unlike Confederate dollars or Pokemon cards). While it’s true that you can trade your fed-notes for a fluctuating and every declining number of Walmart’s made-in-China gumballs, fed-notes have zero “redeemable” value. Sorry to burst your bubble.

  • 1. The US Constitutions defines money as gold and silver.

    2. Federal Reserve Notes are accepted as money, although they have no fixed value in either gold or silver, and have been steeply declining in trading value against real money (as defined by the Constitution) ever since there initial issuance, but especially since their backing transitioned from fractional to fictional.

    3. The Fed has the balls to accuse a group issuing certificates backed by gold and silver (real money, as defined by the Constitution) of “counterfeiting”? And a bunch of dupes holding fed-notes (backed by nothing more than the bad faith and over-extended credit of a corrupt gov’t) are actually cheering this? The world has gone completely mad.

  • Hmmm…It is comical—to the extreme, of course; Gone Paul tends to be that way, so his groupies should be no different—that while some of the GP maniacs argue that GP had nothing whatsoever to do with this little tidbit of a felony, and other GP maniacs argur that Norfed isn’t actually issuing a currency, yet still other GP maniacs argue that Norfed’s “it-ain’t-money certificates” are, indeed, a legitimate currency—and that the USD is counterfeit.

    A simple litmus test is called for. Congress has the power to issue the national currency. Congress holds the authority to establish the various departments of the Government, and the authorities/liabilities of those departments. So I would ask if Norfed ever got around to registering these “it-ain’t-money certificates” with the SEC—a-aaaaaand they probably didn’t.

    Here’s another clue you GP folks need to get—you cannot have it three different ways. When the defenders of an activity that, at the barest of minimum glances, appears to have violated numerous laws, and cannot get their story-telling on the same page, that usually denotes a level of complicity commonly referred to as “guilt.”

    In the end, I will be extremely curious as to whether the recent cash run-up for the Paul campaign—oh, I’m sure all you “good little GP groupie-children” know what I’m talking about here when I bring up the issue of the one-day influx of donations via email—might have been, shall we say, “promoted and funded by the Norfed folks.” Because if it was, and if the GP campaign was involved—two substantial “ifs,” I’ll cede, but one can only guess at what lies within all those confiscated hard-drives and boxes of paper records—I could imagine the need for a great many people to suddenly find themselves in need of some really good criminal defense assistance.

    So you self-righteous little GP wankers might want to start thinking about “lawyering up.”

    It’ll be interesting….

  • I wasn’t going to vote for Paul, and I did vote (mostly
    ) Democrat in 2006… largely because of my disgust with George W Bush and his neo-con/theocrat buddies. But the more I see lefties really going after after Paul (HE’S CRAZY!!!!!) and his supporters (THEY’RE NUTJOBS!!!!) the more I’m seriously considering supporting him. I’ve never voted for a Republican for POTUS, but the more I talk to Paul supporters, the more I think they’re informed, mainstream Americans.

    Hillary is creepy, and John Edwards is shady. But I’m definitely open to Obama. But the more I read of crap like this, the more I think that liberals still haven’t had a long enough time-out.

    Here’s the deal liberal dudes… you lost several elections to really weak candidates supported by mostly far right wing extremists. There’s a reason for that. People don’t like you. At all. Don’t get too cocky.

  • It all seems a little Nazi-ish to be producing this alternative currency connected with conservative politics and apparently trying to promote it as far as possible… Why the bailout? Why not have policies to strengthen the US dollar instead of abandoning it? Seems to me this is the type of thing that revolutions are involved in. And a conservative revolution is definitely the worst kind of one.

  • So is a platinum “Ron Paul dollar” worth $2,000 American currency of goods in the “underground economy”? Because if not, then if someone gave me a platinum Ron Paul “dollar” for a $1 comic book, I might just laugh my sane, liberal ass off at him, and then sell it for $2,000 on e-bay.

    Wow, precious-metal currency– great idea since our dollar is so weak… I’m sure that’s the real real reason behind it… not…

  • When I posted about this yesterday morning I got a rush of Ron Paulites all critiquing my post because I used the word “counterfeit”. They contended that since counterfeiting money involves an element of deception, my ultimate point that if a candidate’s supporters issue illegal money it really detracts from the attractivenes of their positions.

    These folks really lack a big hunk of common sense. My gut tells me that since Ron Paul did not always have a online, raving army of cult-like followers, it’s more likely most of these people are the ones who snuck out quietly in the night with a razor blade to remove the Bush/Cheney ’04 stickers from their bumpers after losing faith in their idiot savant political leader.

  • If Ron Paul wants to get a lot of new supporters, he should look to Christian 20-somethings who believe their fascination with computer-stuff and pop-culture bountifully translates into instant brilliance and wisdom at any subject or endeavor they are faced with.

    They are like a 2000s version of naive ’60s New Age idealists. They will do anything for him on the basis of a few superficial assurances and buy into it hook, line, and sinker.

  • Swan wrote:

    “It all seems a little Nazi-ish to be producing this alternative currency connected with conservative politics and apparently trying to promote it as far as possible… Why the bailout? Why not have policies to strengthen the US dollar instead of abandoning it? Seems to me this is the type of thing that revolutions are involved in. And a conservative revolution is definitely the worst kind of one.”

    You tell us Swan. We’re not the one’s debasing the currency like mad!!

    I would argue that a conservative revolution is what would safeguard us from this problem. Being that conservatives are (supposed to be) from the school of free market capitalism.

    Are you going to solve the problem of central banking and planning, with MORE central banking and planning? What was revolutionary was the passing of the Federal Reserve Act which allowed all of this to happen. It doesn’t matter whether you sever the ties of the currency from gold, silver, or whatever other commodity you come up with.

    You can loan out however many 1’s and 0’s you want, but if the money supply does not grow in proportion to real economic growth, then you end up having a mess on your hands. A huge mess with big winners and big losers.

  • Christian 20-somethings who believe their fascination with computer-stuff and pop-culture bountifully translates into instant brilliance and wisdom at any subject or endeavor they are faced with

    Hey, I get to be just like the hackers from the big city! Neat! / conservative computer-nerd poseur

    Mike wrote:

    You tell us Swan. We’re not the one’s debasing the currency like mad!!

    It’s conservatives who are behind this scheme to abandon our currency. You’re just not making the connections between how what you advocate is what’s necessary to solve the problems you see, either. Seems like just another excuse for wackiness, to me.

    Why not get a life and do something useful with your time? Go to medical school and learn to save lives, and use your money to buy a bunch of DVDs to donate so a small, modest town can have a free, public DVD library. That type of thing.

  • Swan wrote:

    It’s conservatives who are behind this scheme to abandon our currency. You’re just not making the connections between how what you advocate is what’s necessary to solve the problems you see, either. Seems like just another excuse for wackiness, to me.

    The scheme to abandon the currency is bi-partisan.You can read all about it in the paper titled “The End of National Currency” by the bi-partisan think tank group the Council on Foreign Relations.

    http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20070501faessay86308-p0/benn-steil/the-end-of-national-currency.html

    You act like realizing that the U.S. Dollar is losing its value is some kind of crime. Its just business, its how markets work. Why would anyone want to hold onto a currency that doesn’t hold its value? It’s a bad investment.

    The rest of the world is waking up to this fact and they’re trying to get out of our system right now.

    Look, I’m not too pleased about this. I’m not wishing that the dollar goes down in value, I don’t stand to gain from that. I don’t have any control over the money supply or inflation.

  • Pliny,

    Those of us who observed both the Dean phenomenon in 2003-4 and the current Paul support on line are really not very impressed. The support for Paul appears to be far more a case of a small number of highly dedicated people who spent in inordinate amount of time on other blogs, making noise far beyond their numbers. Paul supporters are, to their credit, also willing to put their money where their mouth is, but that does not change the view of their relatively low numbers.

    “The other side is every bit as mean spirited and inarticulately rude as any supporter of Dr. Paul that I have ever seen”

    There is a major difference between the examples you provide and the behavior of Paul supporters spamming other blogs. These are examples of of what people are writing on their own blogs, which is quite different from the behavior of comments going to other blogs.

    In many cases the negative comments on Paul supporters are a direct result from the behavior of the Paul supporters who spam other blogs. While I’m sure you don’t see it, the impression Paul supporters give by their conduct is that they are a fringe group of kooks who are out of touch with reality. Fairly or not, this often extends to a question of whether someone who attracts such supporters is a kook himself.

    You might protest this, but it won’t change the view of Paul supporters. You ultimately need to decide if the goal is to win on debating points (in your minds) or if the goal is to portray a positive view of Paul throughout the blogosphere.

  • I doubt that anyone is impressed by the arguments on Disney Dollars above, but in case anyone needs clarification, Disney Dollars are actually gift certificates which can be redeemed at places such as Disney Parks, resorts, and stores. They are not at all similar to what is being discussed here.

    The argument on Monopoly money is even weaker as this is used purely for a game.

  • Steve-0,

    The fact that Ron Paul supporters aren’t all goose-stepping to the same drum beat isn’t an indication of error, as you seem to be “suggesting.” It is evidence that we are a diverse group of INDIVIDUALS, who don’t take our marching orders from headquarters, and aren’t all singing from the same sheet of daily talking-points memos. I’m sure this an alien concept to you, but cope with it.

  • Ron Chusid said: Those of us who observed both the Dean phenomenon in 2003-4 and the current Paul support on line are really not very impressed. The support for Paul appears to be far more a case of a small number of highly dedicated people who spent in inordinate amount of time on other blogs, making noise far beyond their numbers. Paul supporters are, to their credit, also willing to put their money where their mouth is, but that does not change the view of their relatively low numbers.

    I’ve observed both phenomenon and I’m impressed; just who is this “us” you speak of? On what basis have you concluded that Dr. Paul’s supporters are small in number or inordinately dedicated to “making noise” disproportionate to their numbers? All I see you doing is coming to conclusions with no facts or reasoning to support them.


    There is a major difference between the examples you provide and the behavior of Paul supporters spamming other blogs. These are examples of of what people are writing on their own blogs, which is quite different from the behavior of comments going to other blogs.

    Classic goal post moving. Your original complaint was a lack of “netiquette,” but now crude “netiquette” devoid behavior is fine, its really “spamming” other people’s forums that is bad. However, your new argument, much like the old one, is without merit because Dr. Paul’s detractors also “spam” (its not really spam, but we’ll use your word for the sake of ease) positive blog entries regarding Dr. Paul. Not to mention that “spamming” negative blogs full of crude remarks is actually worse than merely replying to those crude remarks. Not that I’m defending such behavior on either side, but let’s get some perspective and quit pretending that its just Dr. Paul’s supporters who are out there being uncivil.

    http://www.reason.com/blog/show/123555.html
    Headline: Barry Goldwater Jr. Endorses Ron Paul
    Comment: Edward | November 16, 2007, 12:07pm | #

    The son of a wingnut endorsing a wingnut. How fitting.

    http://digg.com/2008_us_elections/Student_Support_for_Ron_Paul_Grows
    Reviews linked to from a news alert on Dr. Paul’s campaign website:
    Comment: Ron Paul = Ross Perot.
    The good part is that dumb people who would have voted from a Democrat will vote for him and the Republicans will win!

    http://digg.com/2008_us_elections/Ron_Paul_on_Face_the_Nation
    Reviews from another news alert on Dr. Paul’s campaign website
    Comment: So did they ask RP any hard questions, like why he published a white supremecist newsletter?

    http://digg.com/2008_us_elections/Ron_Paul_to_Jay_Leno_I_could_win_2
    Reviews from yet another news alert on Dr. Paul’s campaign website
    Comment: giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity giggity
    Comment: yes he can win! if we believe hard enough! and begin hallucinating! and lose all touch with reality!

    Vote Ron Paul
    Comment: lol ron paul and tom cruise in the same room, proving that there is no chandrasekhar limit for crazy
    Comment: So this does confirm my suspicions. He is insane.

    I trust that my point is proven, though I could go on with many more similar such “spam” posts, many of which are to news alerts on Dr. Paul’s website instead of merely random blogs.


    In many cases the negative comments on Paul supporters are a direct result from the behavior of the Paul supporters who spam other blogs. While I’m sure you don’t see it, the impression Paul supporters give by their conduct is that they are a fringe group of kooks who are out of touch with reality. Fairly or not, this often extends to a question of whether someone who attracts such supporters is a kook himself.

    I see no rational basis to question Dr. Paul based on the support he draws rather than on the opinions he espouses. The “kooks” may merely be drawn to him because he is the only candidate offering them the freedom to be as crazy as they please so long as they don’t harm someone else’s liberty. It is the intellectually lazy detractors, who don’t want to address the substance of Dr. Paul’s ideas, that decide to go the “guilt by association” route. To be fair many people do this with any number of candidates. Fred Thompson, for example, was trashed by pro-life advocates for having represented a pro-choice group in his capacity as an attorney at one point. I don’t believe it is a valid or reasonable manner by which to guage the suitability of a candidate though.


    You might protest this, but it won’t change the view of Paul supporters. You ultimately need to decide if the goal is to win on debating points (in your minds) or if the goal is to portray a positive view of Paul throughout the blogosphere.

    I urge civility from all parties, but I don’t single out some instances of crude behavior and attempt to wield it as a blunt instrument against a whole section of individuals whose philosophical outlook I disagree with.

  • Pliny,

    There is no goal post moving on my part. You responded to my comment with statements which were irrelevant to my comment. Pointing that out is not moving the goal posts.

    “I see no rational basis to question Dr. Paul based on the support he draws rather than on the opinions he espouses. ”

    As I said, this may not be fair, the the fact remains that this is the case as is something Paul supporters should keep in mind when posting around the blogosphere.

  • There is no goal post moving on my part. You responded to my comment with statements which were irrelevant to my comment. Pointing that out is not moving the goal posts.

    It’s most certainly goal post moving to be critical of Dr. Paul’s supporters for lacking “netiquette” generally and then, once its shown that his detractors also lack “netiquette” to amend your complaint to “spamming” anti-Paul blogs. Of course, as I demonstrated, the detractors also “spam” pro-Paul websites so either way you want to spin it there is no basis to be critical of Dr. Paul’s proponents whilst remaining silent about the similar behavior found amongst his detractors.

    As I said, this may not be fair, the the fact remains that this is the case as is something Paul supporters should keep in mind when posting around the blogosphere.

    I wholeheartedly agree. My point is that when this criticism is being applied selectively to his supporters and not his detractors it looks like a thinly veiled slur against all of Dr. Paul’s supporters rather than a general call for civility. Obviously I have no way of knowing what your intent was here, but you of all people should appreciate the way things may be perceived, fairly or not.

  • Pliny,

    I was speaking entirely about the effects of spamming by Paul supporters on the attitude of bloggers and how it is countereffective. When you persist with inane attempts to argue over this you only demonstrate my point as to why we have such a low opinion of Paul supporters.

  • Ron Chusid

    Anyone can look back at the posts and see what we each said for themselves. Crying foul at this point, after you chose to participate in the argument, does nothing to vindicate your point and only indicates that you’re here to slur Dr. Paul’s supporters, not make a plea for civil debate.

  • Xcott@36 et all

    Ithaca Hours are, as I understand it, pegged to the US dollar.

    The crime may be if the Fed critics claim it’s backed with gold and it’s not.
    THAT would be fraud.

    Ithaca Hours merely substitute for regular hours at those stores that accept them.
    When a justice body goes after anyone these days, can we be sure it ISN’T politically motivated?

  • “67.On November 18th, 2007 at 6:03 pm, dday said:

    The question is, how much of that $4 million dollar take on Guy Fawkes Day was in Ron Paul dollars?”

    If that $4.3M was in Ron Paul Dollars, Ron Paul’s just became the richest campaign of any presidential candidate. Ever since the raid, the value of Ron Paul Dollars has skyrocketed:

    http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&catref=C6&from=R10&_trksid=m37&satitle=ron+paul+dollar+&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=36274&sabfmts=1&saobfmts=insif&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=1%26fsoo%3D1

  • The value of those GP dollars are skyrocketing because the investors keep swapping them back and forth, constantly elevating their value. Here’s a question: What are the GP$ going to be worth when the speculating comes crashing down?

    Another thing to consider is “how much of NotHaus’s “company-fortune” is being tossed into a certain someone’s campaign?” Norfed’s tentacles go well beyond merely these so-called “dollars;” there’s a possibility that the financial gains have been linked to the Patriot Movement—and from what I’m seeing, that’s part of why the feds got involved.

    If Paul, through connections to NotHaus, gets linked to the Patriot Movement, his political future can be described in one word:

    ROADKILL.

    Maybe you Paul groupies should start thinking about lawyering up….

  • Steve-0,

    I think it’s safe to speculate the Ron Paul Dollars will ALWAYS be worth more (in relation to fed-notes) than their initial offering price (despite any temporary fluctuation in value). If you believe otherwise, why should anyone take economic/finance advice from someone who so stubbornly ignores history? At any rate, unlike unbacked fed-notes, they will probably never be worthless.

    Your hiccuping insistence that Ron Paul supporters need to “lawyer up” sounds like more than a little wishful thinking on your part. Good luck with that.

  • Steve said:

    The value of those GP dollars are skyrocketing because the investors keep swapping them back and forth, constantly elevating their value. Here’s a question: What are the GP$ going to be worth when the speculating comes crashing down?

    Any investor would realize that whatever intrinsic value of the coin’s metal would probably be the long-term value of the investment. But of course that would also be subject to supply and demand. The RP dollars will eventually either keep their novelty or just achieve parity with with whatever precious metal it is.

    But it is likely that just having the metal will appreciate against the value of the U.S. Dollar. Investing in any kind of commodity right now is basically a safe guard against inflation.

  • Mike, you must be too young to remember the silver-speculating that went on in the late 70’s/early 80’s. Once the scam was exposed, a whole lot of people wound up with a precious metal that wasn’t all that precious. Von NotHaus is doing the exact same thing with his funny-money—and he’s evaluating his “currency” based on the established sales-value of those precious-metal coins—and not the actual value of the metal itself.

    Oh, and AA4P—good luck with that little NeoConfederacy mindset you’ve got going for yourself. When those “Paul Dollars” are declared illegal, we’ll see how valuable they become—when you can’t trade the damned things on the open market. Here’s another tidbit for you—read up on the RICOH laws. Your “von Nuthouse” may be in for quite a ride, once all those “coins” are confiscated as “gains from organized criminal activity….”

  • Steve-0,

    Ron Paul Dollars = “illegal”? That would only further enhance their value, or are you also ignorant of the mechanics of blackmarket economics? To be fair, though, will your precious nazis also declare Rudy and Hillary dollars verboten?

    Rudy Dollars:
    http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&from=R10&_trksid=m37&satitle=rudy+giuliani+dollar&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=36274&sabfmts=1&saobfmts=insif&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=1%26fsoo%3D1

    Hillary Dollars:
    http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40&_trksid=m37&satitle=hillary+clinton+dollar&category0=

    …probably not, since neither is holding up very well against their unbacked fed-notes.

    “NeoConfedrate mindset”? What are you smokin’? Please, share with the rest of us.

    Oh, and I know nothing about Von Nothaus and his business (and neither do you). In fact, I wasn’t even aware that Ron Paul Dollars existed, until news of that little nazi looting party (“raid”) broke. If you want my analysis (and I’m sure you don’t), though, if he defrauded any of his customers, he should be dealt with through the appropriate courts — either civil or criminal. If, however, this “investigation” was not initiated by customer complaints, and is only the result of statist paranoia that backed Liberty Dollars are trying to compete with the official monopoly that the unbacked fed-note enjoys, the jackboots need to stop embarrassing themselves, and return all their ill-gotten loot to it’s rightful owners (Von Nothaus’s customers, who bought and paid for it).

    So, Steve-0, try peddling your nazi propaganda to someone in the market; I ain’t buyin.

  • Steve, thats exactly what I was trying to say. If there is speculating going on than it is driving up the market value and when that speculating ends, the value will end up reflecting something more akin to the raw value of silver or whatever metal it was.

    Exactly what happened in the housing market and why everyone’s equity got so fuct.

  • So i have a question,
    when I go to Dave and Busters, or to other amusement parks and they make me buy their own money to put in their machines, their currency, is that illegal too?

    Are the coins that we buy to put in parking meters and video games also counterfeit money?

  • sab said:
    “So i have a question,
    when I go to Dave and Busters, or to other amusement parks and they make me buy their own money to put in their machines, their currency, is that illegal too?

    Are the coins that we buy to put in parking meters and video games also counterfeit money?”
    75. On November 23rd, 2007 at 7:36 am

    Only if those coins are made of gold…and have Ron Paul’s image on them…apparently.

  • Comments are closed.