‘Now that you’ve explained it to me…’

October 17, 2006

Back in August, we learned from former Ambassador to Croatia Peter Galbraith that the president, shortly before he ordered the invasion of Iraq in 2003, did not understand the religious differences at the heart of Iraqi society. As Galbraith explained, Bush met with three Iraqi Americans, who quickly realized that the president was unfamiliar with the distinction between [tag]Sunnis[/tag] and [tag]Shiites[/tag]. After a lengthy discussion, [tag]Bush[/tag] allegedly said, “I thought the Iraqis were Muslims!”

It was, of course, another one of those amusing-yet-believable anecdotes that leads to questions about the president’s competence, but the Sunni-Shiite distinction is lost on many policy makers. Jeff Stein, the national security editor at Congressional Quarterly, had a fascinating piece on the subject in the NYT today.

For the past several months, I’ve been wrapping up lengthy interviews with Washington counterterrorism officials with a fundamental question: “Do you know the difference between a [tag]Sunni[/tag] and a [tag]Shiite[/tag]?”

A “gotcha” question? Perhaps. But if knowing your enemy is the most basic rule of war, I don’t think it’s out of bounds. And as I quickly explain to my subjects, I’m not looking for theological explanations, just the basics: Who’s on what side today, and what does each want? […]

[S]o far, most American officials I’ve interviewed don’t have a clue. That includes not just intelligence and law enforcement officials, but also members of Congress who have important roles overseeing our spy agencies. How can they do their jobs without knowing the basics?

Good question. And what happens when a key member of Congress actually learns about the distinction? It’s a funny story….

Take Representative [tag]Terry Everett[/tag], a seven-term Alabama Republican who is vice chairman of the House intelligence subcommittee on technical and tactical intelligence.

“Do you know the difference between a Sunni and a Shiite?” I asked him a few weeks ago.

Mr. Everett responded with a low chuckle. He thought for a moment: “One’s in one location, another’s in another location. No, to be honest with you, I don’t know. I thought it was differences in their religion, different families or something.”

To his credit, he asked me to explain the differences. I told him briefly about the schism that developed after the death of the Prophet Muhammad, and how Iraq and Iran are majority Shiite nations while the rest of the Muslim world is mostly Sunni. “Now that you’ve explained it to me,” he replied, “what occurs to me is that it makes what we’re doing over there extremely difficult, not only in [tag]Iraq[/tag] but that whole area.” (emphasis added)

Rep. Everett is just beginning to understand — after a reporter explains the basics to him — why the Middle East is complicated now? More than three years after we invaded Iraq? Are we really governed by people who are this ignorant?

Actually, yes.

Representative Jo Ann Davis, a Virginia Republican who heads a House intelligence subcommittee charged with overseeing the C.I.A.’s performance in recruiting Islamic spies and analyzing information, was similarly dumbfounded when I asked her if she knew the difference between Sunnis and Shiites.

“Do I?” she asked me. A look of concentration came over her face. “You know, I should.” She took a stab at it: “It’s a difference in their fundamental religious beliefs. The Sunni are more radical than the Shia. Or vice versa. But I think it’s the Sunnis who’re more radical than the Shia.”

Did she know which branch Al Qaeda’s leaders follow?

“Al Qaeda is the one that’s most radical, so I think they’re Sunni,” she replied. “I may be wrong, but I think that’s right.”

Did she think that it was important, I asked, for members of Congress charged with oversight of the intelligence agencies, to know the answer to such questions, so they can cut through officials’ puffery when they came up to the Hill?

“Oh, I think it’s very important,” said Ms. Davis, “because Al Qaeda’s whole reason for being is based on their beliefs. And you’ve got to understand, and to know your enemy.”

Except she, like her colleagues and president, have no idea.

I don’t expect the whole country to appreciate the distinctions here, but I don’t think it’s too much to ask policy makers who deal with these issues every day to at least have a surface-level appreciation for the basics.

Or, given the GOP leadership of Washington, maybe it is too much to ask.

To be fair, I couldn’t probably summarize very well the religious differences between Sunni and Shia, at least with reference to the history of Islam. However I would have done a better job than these bozos.

This war is the product of a vast ignorance joining up with overweening arrogance, duplicity and greed.The fact that it is ending badly is hardly surprising.

  • I’m actually amazed you found two congresscritters who really cared that there was a distinction. Especially Jo Ann Davis of Virginia. Considering that her district includes half of Quantico, a little concern why Marines are dying in Anbar might be worthwhile.

    Frankly, I think the Bushites want to be at war with both branchs, at one time. After all, they only have two more years to straighten up the Middle East…

    … or bring about the Rapture.

    All kidding aside, it is not only terribly important to know what countries are Shia or Sunni majority, but to know the ethnic compositions of the countries.

    It also helps to know what radical versus moderate beliefs mean in both cases.

    But that’s Policy Wonky, and the Bushites can’t be like the Clintonistas, after all. That would be admitting that Bill was right (in his choice of aides) and BG2 was wrong.

    And BG2 can never be (proven) wrong. Like God in “Dogma”. The world would just end, puff, gone.

  • “To be fair, I couldn’t probably summarize very well the religious differences between Sunni and Shia.”
    and to be REALLY fair, i’m not sure i could summarize the religious differences between baptists and methodists. (of course, i’m a recovering catholic and was raised to pretty much ignore them both!)

  • Understanding those differences would make it much harder to convincingly portray our enemy as some kind of unitary “Islamofascist” threat. If what you really want is a boogieman to use to sow fear, why would it occur to you to ask about any of the details?

    You’d think that, now that it’s been years since we invaded an Islamic nation, even the laziest person in a position of authority for the effort would have had a staffer pop in a National Geographic video about Islam or something. If they even cared about pretending they were serious about foreign policy.

    The pathetic nature of the government the Republicans have brought us still amazes me, long after I thought I’d reached maximum cynicism.

  • Dear Carpet Bagger, That’s a very good question. Other than there is schism between Sunni and Shiite Muslims based on their religious beliefs, is there a Web site that can clearly explain the details of their religious differences and why fanatical members of each of those sects seem to want to have an internal religious jihad against members of each other’s sect instead of peacefully accepting and tolerating their different religious views? Also, CB, for us regular CB bloggers who want to suggest topics yet to be covered, please advise how we can contact you by e-mail.

    Thanks for any insight you can give those who want to know.

  • Quite frankly, this is not very surprising. I’d be surprised if 10% of Congress knew the difference.

    Also, while speaking of lack of understanding with regards to the Middle East, I am always surprised when politicians couch their opinions on what’s going on in Iraq based on their own beliefs. Sure, as Americans, with attendant American values, we are shocked at some of the stunning violence taking place.

    The error we make is basing what we see on our own beliefs. But then, if you really think about it, our beliefs are not at issue here.

    The correct view is to look at the same events based on the beliefs of those responsible for the events. There was a saying during the Cold War that “the Soviets might not be rational by our standards but they are rational by their own standards.”

    In order to make policy, one must fully understand the situation based on the viewpoint of those involved. This story, more than ever, reveals the utter lack of understanding – and by extension – utter lack of hope of dealing with the Iraq situation in any meaningful way.

    It’s the three ton elephant in the room nobody wants to talk about….

  • It actually takes about 20 seconds on Google to get to a page with a really good, rooted-in-islam history of what is what between the Sunnis and the Shiites, and it doesn’t even use a lot of big words.

    Of course, using “the internets” may be difficult for Republicans, given that Republican is a synonym for “drooling moron.”

    And no, I’m not going to post the URL here. If you want to know, go to Google and search “historical differences between Sunnis and Shiites.” Then you too will know far more than the average idiot, er, I mean Republican office holder.

  • Thank God the Sufis aren’t involved. Three sects of Islam would be too damn much to wrap their little idiot heads around.

    I wonder … can they tell the difference between the Shia, Sunni and the Kurds? Or can the point to the problems an autonomous Kurdish zone poses to the region?

  • “Also, CB, for us regular CB bloggers who want to suggest topics yet to be covered, please advise how we can contact you by e-mail.” – Comment by Jesseaw — 10/17/2006 @ 2:40 pm

    Try scrolling up to the top of the blog. Up where you see the title banner. On the far right side you’ll see the word Contact.
    It is a link. Click on it.

    I hope that works for you.

  • This commentary was BEYOND scary. I mean, hell, having a basic understanding of the difference (even if only as it pertains to modern times, and where the tribes hold sway) between the groups is more than crucial to understanding the dynamics of the war.

    I guess I shouldn’t be surprised. I always found it ironic that we would attack the moderates, and ally ourselves with a bunch of extremists who have had all of their leadership trained by the Mullahs in Iran…

    But this pedestrian mentality of the Congressional leadership is disturbing. How can the American people really elect representatives who are so dumb? (and, as the corollary to that, if the people can elect such stupid representatives, is Democracy really that great of a deal?)

  • “if the people can elect such stupid representatives, is Democracy really that great of a deal?”

    “representatives”? Looked at our President lately?

  • “‘if the people can elect such stupid representatives, is Democracy really that great of a deal?’

    ‘representatives’? Looked at our President lately?” – peter

    Now be fair Peter, the “people” elected Gore. The Supreme Court elected Boy George II.

  • Don’t fall for the rhetorical trap most “man on the street” queries would reveal most people don’t know the difference either. It is the job of these decision makers and legislators to understand the dynamic of the conflict they are constitutionally obligated to oversee. Their ignorance is our peril and the peril of all the innocents now involved.

    They are making policy thinking all the killing over there is the work of the easy catch-all expression of terrorists. Failing to get the critical dynamic of what’s happening between the Shia and Sunni sects means they will never understand the need to withdraw our forces and to engage the rest of the Middle East to find a settlement for the quagmire.

    Intellectual curiosity is rampant in Washington. I fear that for Republicans is it advantageously so and they prefer to perpetuate it.

  • It all goes along with the basic principle of putting yourself into another’s shoes. (A Christian virtue that is very overlooked, probably b/c it exposes oneself to identifying with people who don’t think just like you, i.e. everyone else.) Honestly, if a non-American was asked to explain the difference between Catholic, Pentacostals, and United Church of Christ strains of Christianity, they would be just as hard pressed to explain the difference. Americans would be apalled that they didn’t just “know” that. And here we are, fighting a war where we still don’t understand the background of the country we invaded and took over, and can’t figure out why nothing we do is working. No one has taken the time to learn. I think I read that some of people driven out of the military for their sexual orientation were the people who knew the language AND the customs/culture of the Middle East. It’s mind-boggling and extremely frustrating!

    Oh, and Yay Tom! (#8) baby steps for the newbies… : )

  • Trent Lott would be proud.

    You would think with The Troubles in Ireland that have only recently died down, people wouldn’t have trouble understanding that citizens of a country can be of the same over-arching religion but still hate one another’s guts. But I guess that would mean being alert at some point during the last thirty + years.

    Never mind.

  • The tip-off to administration ignorance on terrorism and the ME came shortly after 9/11 (the 12th?) when Bush first used the term “evildoers.” The minute you “define” your enemy with such a broad, meaningless term, you’ve lost. Shiite, Sunni, Sadaamist, foreign terrorists, networked terrorists, lone guns, local thugs and just plain criminals can’t be defeated until you understand who’s who and come up with a suitable strategy to deal with each. That our representatives and the admin have yet to figure this out is unconscionable.

  • If our leaders had understood the difference between Sunnis and Shiites, as well as understood the secular stance of the Baathist party, they would have understood how counter-intuitive, and unlikely, it was to suggest that Baathist Saddam was helping out radical Sunni Osama.

    I bet that George 41 knew at least something about the nature of the Islamic segments. It would explain why he knew better than to camp out in Iraq rattling everyone’s cages after Gulf War I.

    But the idiot son…

  • Equally important for our troops on the ground to know this info, but I’m sure if the leaders don’t know they aren’t handing out any pamphlets that explain the difference. One of the great failings of our military is it’s lack of education in regards to our folks deployed overseas, and it costs us. I spent a year in Korea, with no prior military training on customs and courtesies. Initially I found the Koreans to seem standoffish, almost rude. Then I learned a few things through reading some info on their ways and it was like turning on a switch. Immediately the Koreans I interacted with began to treat me differently, because I took the time to learn a few basics rules of Korean etiquette. After that they all seemed friendly.

    I wonder who we can trust to teach our folks basic Sunni/Shia customs. Our folks on the ground would be mmore respected and trusted if they weren’t all acting “American”, and without this training how else will they act?

  • I am shocked & awed. Surely that’s the first time ever that American arrogance & ignoranceare is combined with such lethal consequences for the “locals”. Ever seen the documentary ‘The Fog of War” with McNamara about Vietnam?

  • The next quesiton should be HOW DO MUSLIMS DEFINE FREEDOM? I have written numerous letters to NY Times and others pointing out that Islam, which means, surrender, defines freedom as surrendering to God’s laws, i,e, the Koran. Rulership by a nonmuslim power or nonislamic law is seen as a form of slavery by millions of muslims. Muslim liberals, by which I mean, muslims who argue the Islamic laws is a priviate system of ehtics, not a public system of laws, are attacked by islamists and have been incarcerated in Iran.

    This is one reason we face such violent insurgencis in Afghanistan and Iraq.

  • “… most American officials I’ve interviewed don’t have a clue. That includes not just intelligence and law enforcement officials, but also members of Congress who have important roles overseeing our spy agencies. How can they do their jobs without knowing the basics…”

    Dumbest. Empire. Ever.

  • Thanks to Danny (#10 above) and shargash (#20 above) for your kind information. I’m grateful to the two of you for the Carpetbagger Report contact link and the recommendation of the book “No God but God” by Reza Aslan, respectively.

    As a busy freelance proofreader who is a member of The Network of Spiritual Progressives, I try to be open-minded and have an inquisitive, tolerant view of other religious and political views but find that, sometimes due to my busy schedule, I seek advice from others as to their recommendation of books, URL links, and contact information. I look forward to getting my copy of the “No God but God” book at my favorite bookstore and to contacting The Carpetbagger Report by e-mail in the future. Thanks, again, for your advice.

  • “…a surface-level appreciation for the basics” might lead to something resembling an understanding of how complex a situation we were facing and that would then require a stepping back from simplistic and overarching tactics because they would be seen as the stupid and inadequate and destructive dead ends that they have proven to be. Creating anything more substantial than an amorphous Axis of Evil would endanger warmed up and waiting plans for war that were much more important than understanding who we were about to attack.

    What the hell did it matter who they were or are. They were in the way. End of story. Until it wasn’t.

  • Along with Mr. 8: One jot of curiosity and 5 minutes in front of a keyboard yield

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/intro/islam.htm

    The same analysis can be found in numerous sources–most of which, however, are big, scary *books*, and, therefore, most likely to be liberal, jewish, jesuitical heresies not to be read by god-fearing republivolk–so the articles on the site are demonstrably correct.

    It is, after all, the job of government, and especially its intelligence arms, to be restlessly curious. It’s no help that Bush is the most incurious person ever to hold the office, but it’s hard to imagine that one man’s lack of curiosity could create a culture of disdain for the merest acquaintance with simple facts.

    To Mr. 20: the schism between shiia and sunni is about as obscure and theological a debate as the U.S. civil war: money was involved, allegiances re-shaped, people killed.

  • When Soviets were repressing Christians, they at least knew the difference between denominations, and many of them knew Bible very well. But in US goverment looks like nobody cares what is the difference between those Islamic denominations and what they believe in. That’s total absurd.

  • Sad. Americans do not seem to have ability to focus on details; at least, do not want to spend time on something not easily splendid on headlines. It is very surprising that that many representatives and officials could not tell the difference. I had came to realize who belongs to which part of Iraq just by reading very small number of nytimes articles since the troubles in Iraq. My generalization of carelessness to americans, not just to the government, shouldn’t be correct. Must not. But I did because it alluded to american auto industry at the moment. I do not see this kind of tendency change in the near future. Hope americans to invent something new — that is where americans are good at — to offset their “deficiency,” and eventually succeed to see stable Iraq.

    Happen-to-know-the-difference guy from asia.

  • We landed in Baghdad with as much awareness as invading Martians.

    If you watched all the media channels it took about 3 years after 9/11 for really knowledgeable security, ME experts to reach the more informed air waves.

    Instead of Rumsfeld-Cheney–$$$–>Halliburton-Custer-Battle-Bechtel how much more effective would the Iraq expedition have been if it had gone to Mars(Snickers)-GenMills(Cheerios)-P&G-J&J.

    Post occupation strategic plan for Baghdad (vast improvement on Jerry Bremer’s genius):

    6 million Snickers ( 4mil. Baghdad 2mil. rest of country delivered)
    1 million bars of soap
    1m units skin lotion

    Like #30 said maybe we’ll invent a better approach next time.

  • Interesting article, but one with an hidden agenda.

    Old Jeff wants us to understand that the lack of understanding in our political leadership of the so-called enemy, Iraq, is a serious problem. Of course, he’s right, but his message isn’t clear. Observing that a lot of politicians, including the president, don’t know the difference between the Sunni and Shia sects of Islam is cogent, intellectually, but not that important when you think that a nation-state with an accepted, identifiable world-presence has WMB’s, terrorist participation, and a threat to your security is an enemy that must be neutralized. If Israel with its many secular and religious divides were likewise perceived, Tel Aviv would be the target, just like Bahgdad, no questions asked. It’s only when you start trying to justify a mistake, like bringing democracy to the Middle-East, that knowing what you were getting into becomes important. But, it’s not! What’s important is to admit the mistake and get the hell out; or, tell the truth: oil and Israel; and still get the hell out. More American lives lost is too high a price to pay for either!

  • Bush sr knew the difference between the Shia and Sunnis. Bush Jr would not listen to him when he trued to talk him out of ivading Iraq.

    Even I know the difference.

    A book called Shia Rival explains the whole dynamic.

    But I think that Bush and Congress et al just don’y care.

    It is so embarrasing that US leaders are this ignorant

  • Comment #32 by Arlyn is incoherent. Not only does it fail to demonstrate a ‘hidden agenda’ on the part of Jeff Stein’s article, it barely conceals its own: oil and Israel are the reasons for the current occupation of Iraq. This vision of geopolitics is as intellectually indolent as the incuriosity exposed by the abovementioned article. Following Arlyn’s logic – that considerations such as the religious demographics of Iraq were irrelevant to the goal of threat neutralization, and only began to matter when it became necessary to ‘justify a mistake’ – the US should be bombing Pyongyang already. Cartoonish is a polite term for such a world-view.

    dy
    Shenzhen, PRC

  • Only now, five years into the Afghan (and Iraq-planning) war, is the media now addressing the Sunni-Shiite schism, and the fact that not only our congressional, government, and media, but even our INTEL officials don’t know the difference? Of course, for the neo-cons and Likud lobby it doesn’t really matter: Saddam, (Sunni), Sadr (Shiite), Hezbollah (Shiite), Hamas (Sunni) – kill ’em all! is the operative theme du jour.

    Still, neo-con, neo-confed, Likud, military, and administration – the preconceptions (and willful ignorance) of all these agendas have now so permeated even America’s intel and media. So much for “the best and brightest.”
    Of course, a new rush of books is coming out defining the craziness of launching wars on far corners of the planet with preconceived notions, and Galbraith’s “End of Iraq” is better than most. Among other tidbits, Galbraith explains how Iran was HELPING the US in Afghanistan, as the Taliban (and their Sunni Al Qiada Arab stormtroopers) were butchering Iranian consular officials, and massacring Shiite worshippers in Afghanistan.
    That was, as Galbraith points out, before the feel-good “Axis of Evil” speech drove Iran into the arms of the hardliners (the speech clearly stated that those countries were next after Iraq), and drove both Iran and North Korea to accelerate their weapons programs.

  • @ verifi, comment #35:

    What is the Likud lobby? I have never heard of such a group. Are they the ones who withdrew from Gaza, expelling the Jewish population, to allow the election of a government specifically dedicated to the eradication of their country and people? Maybe they’re the ones who enabled the Russians and Iranians to arm Hamas and Hizbollah with advanced weaponry like night-vision goggles, anti-tank missles and surveillance technology. Or are they the group that sat on their hands after well over 30,000 terror attacks, after more money than the entire Marshall Plan disappeared in the pockets of corrupt politicians and terrorists, to fund civilian massacres and state media fabricating history and proclaiming the virtues of indiscriminate murder of Jews? That’s the only Likud I’m aware of.

    Please edify. I’m most curious.

  • Maybe it’s time to start pondering what in the American society, American nation, American national character, American constitution, or whatever… that causes this obvious disregard for facts, knowledge and professionalism.

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