Obama 2, Dobson 0

Following up on an item from yesterday, Focus on the Family’s James Dobson launched a fairly aggressive offensive against Barack Obama on the religious right leader’s radio show, accusing the senator of “dragging biblical understanding through the gutter.” Yesterday afternoon, Obama responded to the criticism.

Barack Obama said Tuesday that evangelical leader James Dobson was “making stuff up” when he accused the presumed Democratic presidential nominee of distorting the Bible.

Dobson used his Focus on the Family radio program to highlight excerpts of a speech Obama gave in June 2006 to the liberal Christian group Call to Renewal.

Speaking to reporters on his campaign plane before landing in Los Angeles, Obama said the speech made the argument that people of faith, like himself, “try to translate some of our concerns in a universal language so that we can have an open and vigorous debate rather than having religion divide us.”

Obama added, “I think you’ll see that he was just making stuff up, maybe for his own purposes.”

Dobson was worked up, in large part because Obama, in his 2006 speech, criticized the notion of basing public policy on a literal interpretation of one religion’s sacred text — in Dobson’s case, the Christian Bible. Obama explained why this would be a mistake, pointing to specific Old Testament passages, including rules in Leviticus on approving slavery and condemning the eating of stonefish. “So before we get carried away, let’s read our Bible now,” Obama said in the speech. “Folks haven’t been reading their Bible.”

Dobson’s response is that Obama is “deliberately distorting the traditional understanding of the Bible,” because Old Testament texts and dietary codes no longer apply to Jesus’ teachings in the New Testament.

As a theological issue, Dobson’s on thin ice. As a political issue, Dobson probably doesn’t realize what a mistake he’s made.

First, the theology. Dobson believes in a literal interpretation of every word in the Christian Bible. Obama, in his ’06 speech, pointed to specific passages from the Christian Bible. As such, as far as Dobson is concerned, Obama was “distorting” the “traditional understanding” of the Bible? Something doesn’t add up here — if every word of Scripture is literally true, how can anyone distort the Bible by pointing to specific passages?

“Traditional understanding” sounds like some kind of liberal, mamby-pamby, after-the-fact interpretation of the Bible’s plain text, when Dobson is supposed to be, to borrow an expression, a strict constructionist.

Indeed, there’s a bunch of great examples from the Old Testament. Parents can stone a misbehaving child; fathers can sell daughters into slavery; garments made of two different kinds of threads are a real no-no; the list goes on and on. Dobson, on the one hand, believes every word of the Bible is literally true. Dobson, on the other hand, also argues we shouldn’t believe every word of the Bible is literally true but should instead accept a “traditional understanding” of the Bible. To do otherwise, is to “distort” Scripture.

Ultimately, Dobson apparently wants the focus to remain on the New Testament. Note to Dr. Jim: Christians are supposed to embrace both Testaments.

As for the politics, Dobson is inadvertently reinforcing Obama’s “turn the page” theme. The senator is talking about a new approach; Dobson wants an old approach. Obama believes the religious right movement need not speak for people of faith; Dobson says the religious right movement has to speak for people of faith. Obama sees religion as inclusive; Dobson sees it as exclusive.

It creates the dynamic Obama wants. In fact, the AP noted that the Rev. Kirbyjon Caldwell, a Methodist pastor from Texas and longtime supporter of President Bush who has endorsed Obama, said Tuesday he belongs to a group of religious leaders who, working independently of Obama’s campaign, launched James Dobson Doesn’t Speak For Me.com.

I don’t think Dobson thought this one through.

PWNED

  • Actually on this one, Dobson has a small point and Obama partiall mistaken in details, which gave Dobson an opening:

    1. Dobson is actually correct with regard to non-application of Old Testament rules to Christians, e.g., no shellfish, no pork, etc. Obama was wrong on this as a matteer of Christian thought (Christ supplanted the old).

    2. There is plenty in the New Testament that Obama could/should have pointed to, notably the Beatitudes (blessed are…), Sermon on the Mount etc. Most of the words directly attribtuble to Jesus are quite progressive. Much of the bad stuff in Christianity is from Paul or later.

    3. We Jews, even the Orthodox, are NOT “old” testament (Torah, Tanakh) literalists. After the fall of 2nd Temple, Judaism, there is complete shift with development of Talmud and ongoing Rabinnical debate. Everything is argued. To take a current example, both Wexler and LIEberman are modern orthodox.

  • Dobson is nothing more than a mouth piece for a institution that has perpetuated a myth for the last 2000 years. What ever he spews from his pie whole is nothing more that BS

  • “Parents can stone a misbehaving child”

    My traditional understanding of what that means = Parents can get “stoned” when a child misbehaves.

  • I should add that the additional point against Dobson and rest of Christian right is their hypocritical policized selective fundementalist literalism: So they do accept what they call the “Old Testament” when it suits them, such as against gay male sex and in favor of child corporal punishment, but then use the theologically legit. point that Christ supplanted the old when convenient such as pork and shellfish, etc.

  • DrSteveB, the linked NYT article includes Obama’s claim that the Defense Department could not survive a literal application of the Sermon on the Mount.

    Where does the Leviticus stuff about, say, gays fit into all this? Should we still be stoning them? I think Obama has the better of the argument.

  • 1. Dobson is actually correct with regard to non-application of Old Testament rules to Christians, e.g., no shellfish, no pork, etc. Obama was wrong on this as a matteer of Christian thought (Christ supplanted the old).

    I disagree. First of all, Obama is correct that, when it comes to the Old Testament, Dobson and his crowd want to pick and choose from among the Torah (gays bad, but u can haz cheezeburger). AFAICT, Jesus never said word one about homosexuality, but dined with prostitutes and tax collectors.

    Second of all, as your second point reveals, Obama is setting a trap for Dobson — Jesus did preach love and compassion — love your neighbor as yourself. The more hate Dobson and his crowd preaches, the less Christian they make themselves out to be.

    As for the Bible being the literal word of God, it seems to me an effort to elevate the words of Paul to equality with those of Jesus, which smacks of heresy, doesn’t it?

  • Last evening’s talking heads were talking ad nauseum about Dobson’s charge and the ‘damage it could do to Obama…’ Dobson was taken seriously, and his comments were taken at face value.

  • DrSteveB (3): Dobson is actually correct with regard to non-application of Old Testament rules to Christians,

    Are you saying that from a Christian perspective the Tower of Babel, for example, should be accepted as historically accurate, but not applied in any moral sense?

    Also from a literal perspective, take this from Luke: Do to others as you would have them do to you.

    Taken literally, a person with a foot fetish and a penchant for chance encounter is morally obliged to seek out stangers and treat them to toe-licking attacks. No?

  • No one is more qualified to talk about twisting the Bible than wife-beating, child-beating, dog-beating Dobson. He is the worst form of scum, a hatemonger and bigot, and America’s most contemptible religious leader. He is not a Christian – he is a disgrace to Christianity.

    The world will be a better place when he is roasting in the Hell to which he would condemn those who don’t deign to kiss his ring.

  • DrSteveB is only partially correct – Jesus did in fact make an exception about dietary rules, but he didn’t abrogate any of the others.

    I used to daydream about introducing legislation (even though I’ve never been anywhere close to being a legislator) making all the rules in the Pentateuch the law of the land – just to watch fundies’ heads explode. My favorite was the law that if your brother died, you (as a male entity) had to make sure his wife was impregnated. Turns out that’s the rule that Onan was breaking, not any strictures against masturbation…

  • h/t to DrSteveB, who’s (with Dobson, at least in this instance) is right here by my reading of the Bible. In Christian thought, Jesus’s message represents God’s final and most expansive covenant with man (the first being his covenant to Adam, the second being his for-Israel-only covenant with Abraham and his progeny, the third a further refinement of His covenant with Abraham delivered through Moses and the Levitican). In fact, Jesus explicitly says that the obligations (and ethnic exclusion) of the “old” covenant–especially as represented under Mosaic Law–are no longer applicable. See, for instance, the Sermon on the Mount/Sermon on the Plain.
    The problem with Dobson’s recent comments (and reflected in this post), is that most “Christians” seem to have no earthly idea what the precise theological underpinnings of their religion is. Christians regularly and liberally look to the Old Testament for religious and moral instruction (often, it seems, with the explicit support of fellows like Dobson). I can’t imagine having a serious conversation on religion in America without making serious errors in interpretation. We’ve replaced serious theological thought with a series of fairy tales.

  • DrSteveB wrote: “Dobson is actually correct with regard to non-application of Old Testament rules to Christians, e.g., no shellfish, no pork, etc. Obama was wrong on this as a matteer of Christian thought (Christ supplanted the old).”

    I don’t think this is a well-known or completely accepted point of theology. The Ten Commandments are in the Old Testament and are still quoted and discussed in plenty of churches. Also, if the Old Testament rules are supposed to be null and void, why are they still there as a part of the Bible?

    As further evidence, here’s Matthew 5:17-19:

    17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

  • Who’s Bible are we talking about? King James? The Catholic Bible? The Good News Bible? You see where I am going right? There are so many different interpretations that it should be left to churches not politics.

    I think Obama is making Dobson look like a bit of an ass.

  • I disagree. First of all, Obama is correct that, when it comes to the Old Testament, Dobson and his crowd want to pick and choose from among the Torah (gays bad, but u can haz cheezeburger). — Gregory

    That’s extremely ironic, given that the whole point of not accepting the Bible literally is to pick and choose which parts of it you want! That way you don’t have to accept slavery, you don’t have execute gays, you don’t have to burn witches, you don’t have to be executed for eating shellfish or insulting mom and dad, and all the while you can still accept the parts that show that the Christian god is kind and loving (whichever those may be).

  • OMG! Referenced to J R Bob Dobbs and the Church of the SubGenius!
    “Slack unto yee!”
    “If you think this is a joke, then you will never get the punch line.”

  • And to top it all off, Dobson isn’t even an ordained minister. This is the problem with ALL ORGANIZED RELIGION:

    They say their particular ‘flavor’ is the only way to salvation!

    Hogwash. Organized religion is a curse upon mankind. It’s behind virtually every war and act of violence throughout civilization. Even down to an Amazonian tribe who’s shaman says they are better than the tribe accross the river.

    The human being, as we know it, has been around in its current form for about 50,000 years. Organized religion? 4-5,000 years (don’t quote me, I’m not an expert!). So, if it is religion that provided humanity with a moral compass (which is by far the most common argument for it), how did we not rape and steal and murder and covet our way to extinction or damnation the first 40,000 years + of our current existence?

    Please. The sooner mankind can rid itself of the people and institutions that use religion as a tool for control, the sooner we’ll be able to live in peace and harmony.

  • As long as I’m quoting scripture, this one goes out to Dobson himself:

    “No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.”

    -Matthew 6:24

  • Follow the money – Dobson has created his empire based on his pro-life and anti-gay agenda. As these recede into the background and such things as the environment, acceptance of gay marriage, etc. come into the foreground, Dobson knows that his mighty empire is crumbling. He is no longer the force that he used to be and that means that he will have less money to spend on his odious hate-mongering.

    He is becoming a relic of the past. His only recourse is to fight back.

    This is one fight he can’t win. There is one word to describe how I am feeling now: schadenfreude – enjoyment obtained from the troubles of others

  • Steve, I love your political analysis but try to avoid theology. It’s a fairly uncontroversial point among conservative Protestants (of whom I used to be one before I went to college and learned to think) that Christ created a new covenant between man and God so that the laws of the Old Testament no longer apply. That’s actually pretty explicitly stated in the New Testament, so Dobson is on pretty firm ground in saying that Obama is wrong to suggest that Christians should be following the Old Testament law.

    A better argument, from my perspective, is that any deity that would impose laws like those which applied in the Old Testament is morally unworthy of worship in the first place, even if the laws were later rescinded. But I suspect Obama doesn’t want to go there.

  • “AFAICT, Jesus never said word one about homosexuality, but dined with prostitutes and tax collectors.”

    No, but Paul did, I believe somewhere in the book of Romans, and the writings of Paul are, of course, part of the New Testament.

  • JRD @ 23 – But that’s the whole point: Sure, Jesus created new laws, but the Dobson crowd STILL insist upon a literal intrepretation of the entire bible and STILL use laws written in the Old Testament to insist that the government’s powers should be used to enforce Old Testament rules upon the rest of us.

    The reality is that the Dobson’s of the world want things both ways. They want to pick and choose when it so fits them, and they want to insist that we’re stuck with the rules as given and aren’t allowed to pick and choose. And they never can explain exactly which rules we’re stuck with and which are optional until the specific debate comes up. Honestly, have you never heard Christians use the Old Testament as their main reason for opposing homosexuality? And then there’s the whole Ten Commandments thing, which these people think is the basis for our legal system and which is still totally in effect, despite the fact that the major religions still can’t agree as to what those commandments are, as the biblical passage lists more than ten things.

    And really, Obama’s main point was that there is so much disagreement upon what the bible says that there is no realistic way of using it to enforce morals upon everyone. Every Christian has slightly different intrepretations of the bible, and the various Christian factions have even larger differences. So whose bible are we to follow? Whose intrepretation should we go with? Is it ok for a Baptist teacher to teach that alcohol is evil? Can a Catholic history teacher teach that the Reformation was wrong and that there is still only one true church?

    For as much as Christians act like this is about a monolithic Christian faith versus atheists, there really isn’t much agreement between the Christians. There IS no one Christian viewpoint. And with guys like Dobson, the whole thing is mandatory…except when it’s not. And that’s the point Obama was trying to make.

  • JRD wrote: “Christ created a new covenant between man and God so that the laws of the Old Testament no longer apply. That’s actually pretty explicitly stated in the New Testament…”

    Could you give a reference? I’m curious to actually see the statement. So far I’ve found plenty of people saying that this is the case but have yet to see the part of the New Testament where it is actually said.

  • Dr. B,

    I agree with most of what you said and I’m certainly not trying to defend Dobson, however:

    “But that’s the whole point: Sure, Jesus created new laws, but the Dobson crowd STILL insist upon a literal intrepretation of the entire bible and STILL use laws written in the Old Testament to insist that the government’s powers should be used to enforce Old Testament rules upon the rest of us.”

    My point is that it’s not inconsistent with a literal reading of the entire Bible to say that the Old Testament laws no longer apply, because Jesus stated at one point explicitly that his sacrifice would create a new covenant– i.e., agreement– between God and man. It’s true, as noted above, that there is some contrary authority in the New Testament as well, but Dobson’s interpretation is very common. As for the argument that Dobson tries to apply Old Testament rules when it suits his political purposes, I’m not at all sufficiently familiar with what Dobson has said to have any opinion on that, but I would point out again that the idea that homosexuality is immoral is also found in the New Testament in the writings on Paul, so the fact that Dobson is anti-gay doesn’t in itself mean that he’s acting inconsistently with respect to his interpretation of the Old Testament.

  • Oh boy, this will be fun. Obama is correct on a number of levels. First, and most importantly, the ‘traditional’ — and current — view of the Bible, by Jews, by Catholics, by all non-‘fundamentalist’ Protestants, is not and never has been a ‘literalist’ one. The ONLY group that holds to a literalist translation are American evangelicals. (Non-American evangelicals are not ‘literalists.’)

    In fact, an — admittedly light-hearted — poll in the Blog “Bible and Theology” — don’t have the cite handy — on the worst theological idea put ‘biblical literalism’ in a close second place. Most European theologians consider American fundamentalism an absurdity — as it is.

    “Biblical literalism’ in fact dates to the 1890’s when a series of pamphlets came out — in opposition the the actual Biblical Scholarship of the time — listing ‘biblical literalism’ as one of the five ‘Fundamental’ beliefs of Christianity — and, in fact, is where the term ‘Fundamentalism’ comes from. One irony is that most Fundamentalists — I don’t know if this is true of Dobson — know neither Hebrew nor Greek — the actual languages the Testaments were written in — and base their preaching on the highly flawed King James Version.

    (An even greater and more delicious irony is that the King James who created the commission of scholars who made the translation — and who most Fundies probably think wrote it himself — was homosexual.)

    Shooting holes in Biblical literalism is so easy that it would be possible to write a post as long as every post here this month combined simply discussing the errors and contradictions between the Gospels, or their variance with known History.

    Sometimes simple common sense will demonstrate them. My own ‘pet’ is the “March of the Living Dead” in Matthew 27:52-53. Read it yourself. (For many of you, be careful opening that Bible you have buried somewhere on your shelves. If you aren’t, the dust you’ll raise may set off asthma attacks in the neighboring blocks.)

    Then ask yourself, if it HAD happened, wouldn’t one of the other Evangelists have mentioned it? Wouldn’t it have been so important an occurence that somebody else wold have, in particular, Josephus, who was born at about this time and must have heard the stories — and he would have loved telling this one. Wouldn’t it have gotten into any literature of the time, religious or secular.

    Biblical Literalism is as much an absurdity as Dobson, himself is. Obama knows this, and does a wonderful job of walking through the minefield that is the simple ignorance of American Christianity.

  • The fundamentalist Right has been more Old Testament than New for about twenty years, ever since their early 70s’ emphasis on “Jesuscentricity” started to be an embarrassment, with accusations that “Jesus” was supplanting “God.” Now Dobson is cherrypicking the Old Testament, directly contradicting the key fundamentalist tenet of Biblical inerrancy. What’s next? “Don’t do as I do, do as I say?” “Don’t look at me?” Biblical Twister? Dobson’s in real danger of looking like a Christian liberal. He might make it to the Twentieth Century yet. While he’s trying to untie himself, Obama may just be breaking some new religious ground, the first real advance in Christian thought since the mid-60s.

  • There did used to be just one Christian viewpoint – and it was called Catholic. Those who didn’t agree with it were heretics, and occasionally got burned to death or otherwise eliminated for their disagreement. Europe fought a war over these issues for 30 years, 1618-1648, that was more devastating to itself than any event other then the Black Death in the 14th century. Religious tolerance grew, very slowly, out of that experience. We keep forgetting this stuff, and keep being reminded by the Dobsons of the world.

    I disagree that CB should avoid theologically tinged issues – this has been a very interesting set of comments.

  • gg–

    I’m not much better equipped to give Biblical references than anyone else with access to Google since I haven’t studied the book in well over a decade, but this Wikipedia entry is pretty informative: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Covenant#New_Testament_texts

    Two of the New Testament passages cited there are particularly relevant to Dobson’s interpretation of the continued vitality of Old Testament law:

    “He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”
    2 Corinthians 3:6 (NIV)

    “For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.”
    Hebrews 9:15 (NIV)

    Neither of those are direct quotations from Christ, but it doesn’t really matter since the entire New Testament is viewed as divinely inspired. There are other passages in which Jesus himself referred to the “new covenant of [his] blood.”

  • Prup: please don’t make the “fundamental” mistake of confusing fundamentalists with Evangelicals. All Evangelicals are not fundamentalists, neither are all fundamentalists Evangelicals. As you say, fundamentalists believe in Biblical inerrancy and literal interpretation. Evangelicals may or may not believe this, but their abiding command is to spread the Word of God, that is, proselytize. This is why Obama has made significant progress with some Evangelicals, while committed fundamentalists hew more to charlatans like Dobson, Pat Robertson and Rod Parsley. They’re also likely to be significantly more racist, sexist and intolerant of social progress in general, because, of course, they’re “commanded to” by the Bible. Or, at least, those who hold the Bible in their hand while commanding them.

  • Wow, a long list of posts where people are not being denegrated for quoting Christian and Jewish texts.

    I thought anyone who wasn’t an atheist was a stupid ignorant fool.

    Remember, it is far eaiser for a Christian or a Jew to be a Democrat than it is for a Christian or a Jew to be a Republican.

    We, meaning Obama, needs to make sure that Christians know that his views. policies. platforms, etc. are far more in line with the teachings of Jesus than McCain’s are.

  • Remember that scene in the West Wing when Josiah Bartlett took some right wing preacher nut to task for her literal interpretation of the Bible (he cited not being able to play football because of a ban on leather, etc). This is kinda like that…. very cool

  • CB/SB = Dobson and the obsessively religious right aren’t only concerned with the New Testament. Remember the OT has Genesis specifically the Creation bits that they use for a whole host of their pet issues like gay marriage and beating down the teaching of evolution.

    Picking and choosing parts of the Bible for one’s arguments is easy. I keep thinking of that scene in Porky’s.

  • It’s true, as noted above, that there is some contrary authority in the New Testament as well, but Dobson’s interpretation is very common. As for the argument that Dobson tries to apply Old Testament rules when it suits his political purposes, I’m not at all sufficiently familiar with what Dobson has said to have any opinion on that

    JRD – That means you’ve missed the whole point. Carpetbagger isn’t saying there’s anything wrong with the idea that the New Testament replaced the Old. He’s pointing out that Dobson DOES believe Old Testament laws still apply. Sure, there are New Testament passages that can be used against homosexuality and abortion, but they still quote the Old Testament laws too. They still consider the Ten Commandments to be in effect. They STILL think it’s “Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.” Again, the whole point is that they insist that the bible is literally true and the laws are mandatory, while also picking and choosing which parts we’re supposed to follow.

    And honestly, if you don’t know what Dobson says, you really can’t defend his position in the least. Carpetbagger wasn’t disagreeing with every Christian who believes the New replaced the Old. He was pointing out that Dobson doesn’t really believe that…except for when he does. And he’s not the only one. There are LOTS of Christians who still quote Old Testament rules as if they still apply, even to atheists and non-Christians. The problem isn’t that Dobson said the New replaced the Old, but that he usually says the opposite. And honestly, I’m really not sure how many Christians truly believe that none of the rules in Old Testament still apply. Most of them pick and choose which laws to obey, while insisting that we can’t do that.

  • JRD: Interesting! To me, though, this seems like many passages in the Bible, in that there is plenty of room for interpretation. It’s not clear that the “New Covenant” invalidates the laws and rules of the old covenant, or is more of a policy of forgiveness of God towards his followers (“I considered you all a bunch of sinning, doomed losers in the old, but now I consider you forgiven in the new.”). As I noted above, in the Sermon on the Mount, Christ seems to explicitly state that he is not overturning the old laws.

    Regardless of the theological accuracy, Obama’s speech hits on an important point: basing public policy on Biblical literalism is a bad idea. Anyone who does so is essentially standing on a table and declaring, “I hereby abdicate all responsibility to think for myself!” And we’ve seen in this post alone that there are plenty of ways for people to interpret God’s will as written.

  • Dr. B,

    No, I don’t think I’m misunderstanding anything. CB’s post, as I understand it, argues that Dobson’s argument that the Old Testament no longer applies is inconsistent with his position that the Bible is to be interpreted “literally,” whatever that may mean. But, for the third time now, there’s nothing inconsistent in those positions if, as Dobson believes, a literal interpretation of the Bible supports the proposition that the new covenant superseded the old. Again, on that view, Dobson is right that Obama is misinterpreting the Bible by suggesting that Christians act inconsistently in failing to adhere to the Old Testament laws.

    Since you apparently are such an expert on Dobson, how about providing a citation to some argument he has made that relies exclusively on Old Testament law? To the extent that many Old Testament principles are incorporated by reference into the New (Jesus quoted most if not all of the Ten Commandments approvingly, for example), then it’s perfectly legitimate to assume that those rules still apply.

  • gg– No question about that; the Bible, much like the Constitution, leaves much room for interpretation, which is the basic fallacy of both religious and secular fundamentalists who insist that a “literal” reading of either text can be reduced to a single unambiguous meaning. But CB’s post kind of skims over the fact that Dobson’s interpretation is both rooted in a plausible “literal” interpretation and is quite widespread.

  • James Dobson is less credible than Bob Dobbs.

    So, so very much win …

    **will clap approvingly whenever he gets around to it**

  • Dobson’s a bit of a boob, and while I’m pretty sure that he could out-quote me on the Bible, there’s all sorts of problems with his literalism. Yes, Jesus did say that he was sent to Earth to supplant and replace the old covenant. Unfortunately, Dobson and his cronies often neglect to mention which Covenant that is. The Covenant he referred to was the Covenant that Moses made between Yahweh and the Israelites, and then expanded upon in Leviticus. You know, the one written on stone tablets? A big part of the New Testament is in Matthew 22:34-40:

    Now when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they assembled together. And one of them, an expert in religious law, asked him a question to test him: “Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” Jesus said to him, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. The second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

    There’s other bits of the New Testament that support this. For example, there’s the part where Jesus performs miracles to help people on the Sabbath. That’s technically breaking a commandment, but still, he does it. His point is that compassion for others shouldn’t be subservient to any of the laws. Dobson and his fellows often forget that compassion was one of the cornerstones of Jesus’ teaching. But they’re really good at quoting the exact words that sound like they support their views, aren’t they?

  • ericfree — the difference between evangelicals and fundamentalists WAS my point. (In fact, one of the most brilliant — and witty — people I’ve met on the net is Chris Tilling, who writes “Chrisendom” and who is an Evangelical but an English one and a post-doctoral student at Tubingen, Germany. His contempt for American fundies is probably deeper than mine because he is a Christian — I’m an atheist — and hates how they have distorted ‘his’ religion.)

  • This debate over Christian theology is a winner for Senator Obama however you look at it.

    If he’s debating Christian theology as a believer, who will believe he’s a Muslim.

    That’s half the battle won (putting that smear to rest, not that there is anything wrong with being a Muslim except in two countries, the USA and Israel).

  • But, for the third time now, there’s nothing inconsistent in those positions if, as Dobson believes, a literal interpretation of the Bible supports the proposition that the new covenant superseded the old.

    Again, the point is that Dobson DOES still push Old Testament rules, and CB’s remark about Dobson’s literal take was shorthand for saying this I’m not going to pretend to have listened to Dobson’s radioshow and really don’t have time to research everything he’s said, but this is the kind of thing I’m talking about. This is from a transcript of Larry King, with Dobson defending Jerry Falwell’s anti-gay stance after Falwell’s death last year:

    KING: But if you’re gay and he calls it an abomination, you might feel hurt by that statement?

    DOBSON: Well, you do have to understand that is in the scripture and so Jerry’s ultimate commitment was to the Bible, to the scriptures. If it was there, he was going to talk about it. And that is written in the Book of Leviticus.
    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0705/15/lkl.01.html

    So he’s justifying Falwell’s anti-gay stance by saying that it was in Leviticus, which forced him to believe that homosexuality was wrong. Beyond that, we’re already getting into “pick & choose” territory with your “it’s perfectly legitimate to assume that those rules still apply” stuff. Because that’s the slippery slope on the way to getting to pick and choose which rules from the Old Testament still apply, based upon what we get to “assume” based upon man’s interpretation of the New Testament. We moved from “the New Testament replaced the Old” to “If something from the Old is mentioned in the New, then that specific rule from the Old still applies.” And that’s exactly how most of these people work. They think the Old Testament still applies, unless they’re embarrassed by something in the Old Testament; in which case they quote the New Testament saying the old rules no longer apply. But…it only doesn’t apply to the stuff they don’t like. Everything else is mandatory. And I’ve found it quite impossible to get a list from these people as to which rules still apply and which don’t. It sounds entirely arbitrary, based on their own specific beliefs. Sounds a lot like moral relativism to me.

    That was the point. And again, Obama’s real point wasn’t just about silly rules in the Old Testament. It’s about how there is no one interpretation of the bible. There are millions of varying interpretations, and even a single believer like Dobson can have contradictory positions on the bible. Again, the point isn’t that Dobson’s quote was wrong, but merely that he doesn’t really believe it.

  • Re: Post 29

    “In fact, an — admittedly light-hearted — poll in the Blog “Bible and Theology” — don’t have the cite handy — on the worst theological idea put ‘biblical literalism’ in a close second place. Most European theologians consider American fundamentalism an absurdity — as it is.”

    OK, I have to ask … what finished on top in the rankings of worst theological ideas? Substitutionary atonement, perhaps?

  • This whole argument calls to mind the constant fundamentalist exhortation that “we must return to the principles of our Founding Fathers.” Many of the Founding Fathers were Deists, whose credo was based on cherrypicking the Bible to form a code that reflected their individual beliefs. Thomas Jefferson went so far as to make his own Bible, literally cutting and pasting to preserve what he believed in and discard what he didn’t. Finally, Dobson really has, inadvertently, returned to the “Faith of Our Fathers.”

  • Again, Dr. B., anti-homosexuality is written into the New Testament also, so Dobson’s reliance on Leviticus there isn’t inconsistent with his argument that the Old Testament was replaced by the new, except to the extent that some principles from the OT are incorporated by reference or repetition in the NT. So the shellfish ban is out, but anti-adultery and anti-homosexuality stay in. I don’t dispute your broader point that Dobson is a hypocrite or Obama’s broader point that much of the Bible can be interpreted in support of liberal causes; my point was only that the theological analysis in CB’s post failed to recognize that Dobson’s interpretation of the relationship between the New and Old Testaments is the standard one among conservative American Protestants, and that the view that the Old Testament law was superseded by Christ is not inconsistent with a “literal interpretation of every word in the Christian Bible.” It’s also not inconsistent with the view that some parts of the OT remain relevant to the extent they are endorsed by the NT.

  • This is why quoting and citing religious teachings and religious texts all the time in the public square and in political discourse is not good. If you’re Dobson you get into some potentially very thorny issues because there’s some really heinous and crazy stuff in the Bible (and most religious texts); and if you’re Obama you get into a public debate on religious faith and interpretation with a guy who’s way out there yet has a lot of followers and many sympathizers who actually think the same ridiculous way.

  • Again, Dr. B., anti-homosexuality is written into the New Testament also, so Dobson’s reliance on Leviticus there isn’t inconsistent with his argument that the Old Testament was replaced by the new, except to the extent that some principles from the OT are incorporated by reference or repetition in the NT.

    JRD, I normally don’t like to be this blunt, but that’s complete and utter horseshit. Again, it’s the “we must obey the Old Testament, except when we don’t” thing that Dobson’s got wrong. And just as a clarifier, the New Testament does NOT endorse any passage from Leviticus. An endorsement would be “these parts of Leviticus still apply,” and the NT doesn’t do that. It might have restated the same rules, but that’s not the same as endorsing the old. And as you said, Dobson’s position which you’re defending is based upon assumptions and is not written in the bible. Dobson didn’t say “We must follow Leviticus because something similar is written in the part of the bible we’re forced to obey.” Nor did he rely upon the New Testament as his basis. He says that it’s in Leviticus, and that’s good enough for him.

    And I agree completely that many conservative Christians also say this, but it’s nothing but a rationalization for their moral relativism. And I have no problem with these people admitting that these are man’s interpretation of God’s law. But they’re insisting that this IS God’s law which isn’t up for interpretation, and that’s simply incorrect if they’re also picking which parts of the OT we need to obey. Again, I understand exactly what you’re saying and have heard this directly from many Christians. But it’s still picking and choosing, which is what they insist we’re not allowed to do. Sure, they say this stuff, but it still isn’t logically consistent.

    And that’s the whole point of this. Carpetbagger isn’t saying that Dobson invented this position to argue against Obama. He’s just saying it doesn’t make sense. And it doesn’t; not even when other Christian conservatives say it. Either Jesus allowed us to interpret the intent of the bible, or he didn’t. But these people basically say that only THEY get to do this, while also insisting that they’re not doing it. But they clearly are. There is no one interpretation of the bible, even among conservative Christians.

    Sorry to be so rude about this, but you really need to get outside of these rationalizations and realize that these people are simply deluding themselves. Sure, they say these things, but they’re not logically consistent. Either Jesus allowed us to interpret the spirit of the Old Testament, or he didn’t. It’s that simple.

  • Concerning ‘traditional interpretation,” I’d like to know what tradition Dobson is talking about? Traditionally, slavery was justified by OT scriptures; and traditionally, infant baptism
    was accepted as a scriptural true article of faith several centuries before protestants objected to the
    practice.

  • Re: 49 and 51

    Perhaps we should refer to Jesus’ own words on the subject. There is NOTHING in any of the four gospels that addresses homosexuality. If he said anything on the subject, no one thought to write it down. The only clear condemnation of homosexuality in the New Testament comes not from Jesus, but from Paul.

  • KT: Damn, I used to remember that, but the poll was about a year ago and I didn’t bookmark it. I think it was either Arianism or ‘Christendom” but I’m not sure. I think your idea was in the race, but not among the leaders. There was some support for “The Rapture” — that weird invention of the early nineteenth century renegade Anglican Darby — who later went on to found the Plymouth Brethren, a group that makes the most overstated popular conception of ‘Puritans’ look positively cheerful in comparison — from one half-sentence in one Epistle, but it was ruled out on the grounds that so few people actually believe in it. (In fact it was practically unknown even in America before the LeHaye novels popularized it.)

  • I totally disagree with Obama. He needs to put Christ in his heart. I cannot vote for him my conscience will not allow me.

  • Prup: You may be thinking of “Christianism,” rightwing political Christianity, also known as Christian Fascism. There’s an excellent, terrifying book, “American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War On America” by Chris Hedges. Dobson is one of the leading Christianists.

    I made the distinction between fundamentalists and Evangelicals based on your sentence “The ONLY group that holds to a literalist translation are American evangelicals.” There are many different strains of evangelicalism, even in America. Witness the current war between the National Association of Evangelicals and fundamentalists such as Dobson and the Southern Baptist Church. The NAE, which favors issues like tolerance, ecology and global warming over racism, sexism, gays and abortion, has basically told them to pick a hell and go there, and has been meeting with Obama staffers.

  • The reality is that most Christians have beliefs much closer to Barack Obama’s than James Dobson’s. Authoritarian fundamentalist Christians like Dobson have had disproportionate political power and press in the past thirty years and even more in the past eight. But most Christians do not believe as Dobson does and he fears, quite correctly, the growing voice and power of the majority. It’s not just the moderate Christian leaders – it’s the Christian voters he’s afraid of.

  • Many of the Founding Fathers were Deists, whose credo was based on cherrypicking the Bible to form a code that reflected their individual beliefs.

    –ericfree

    Close, but not quite right:

    Deism is the belief that there is a God that created the physical universe but does not interfere with it. It is related to a religious philosophy and movement that derives the existence and nature of God from reason. It takes no position on what God may do outside the universe … Deists often use the analogy of God as watchmaker.

    Deists typically reject most supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and tend to assert that God does not intervene with the affairs of human life and the natural laws of the universe. What organized religions see as divine revelation and holy books, most deists see as interpretations made by other humans, rather than as authoritative sources. Deists believe that God’s greatest gift to humanity is not religion, but the ability to reason.

    Deism became prominent in the 17th and 18th centuries during the Age of Enlightenment, especially in the United Kingdom, France and the United States, mostly among those raised as Christians who found they could not believe in either a triune God, the divinity of Jesus, miracles, or the inerrancy of scriptures, but who did believe in one God.

    Your main point, however, still stands: Most of the Founding Fathers were Deists and looked at reason, rather than the Bible, for proof of a God and info on how to proceed with their lives.

    I get the feeling most of them would look at modern conservatives and their total lack of reason as a pitiful joke, or perhaps a tragedy that people so immune to logic gained so much power.

  • Lili,

    How do you know he doesn’t have Christ in his heart? He attends and has been baptized into the Christian faith. Who are you to judge his acceptance of Christian doctrine? And by your code word “He needs to put Christ in his heart.” indicate you are either a fundie or a troll. Maybe you are a fundietroll? You would not vote for Obama if he were the last Christian on earth. By the way there is no religious test for being President. In fact Article VI of the Constitution proscribes such a test “…shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.”. So please don’t vote for the Senator.

  • Jim Wallis of Sojourners has weighed in on this controversy, and his complete comments can be found in this Daily Kos diary:

    http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/6/25/104744/034/368/541687

    The money quote: Many evangelical votes are in play this election year, especially among a new generation, and are no longer captive to the Religious Right. Perhaps that is the real reason for James Dobson’s attack today on Barack Obama.

  • There is an extremely interesting book out there called “The Myth of a Christian Nation”. It talks about how the RW actually worships AMERICA and that God and Jesus are only secondary. It is written by an evangelical preacher and is based upon his sermons to his mega church (which swiftly divided his congregation and lost him half of them). I recommend it highly and would make for an interesting discussion…

  • Bible = anthology. Different books by different authors with different, sometimes conflicting views. The facts are that the Bible doesn’t interpret itself unambiguously and that Christianity has never been monolithic. The evidence for these assertions is that the early church had to hammer out creeds and a single authoritative canon in order to create the appearance of a single coherent scripture and faith and that, once the Church lost its sole authority in the West during the Reformation and everyone turned to the priesthood of the believer (i.e., reading that Bible for yourself), you got scads of different conflicting denominations.

    EVERYBODY who reads the Bible, whether they are self-proclaimed literalists or the liberally religious, picks and chooses; you have to. Conservative Christians find the verses that support their “God is a conservative” theological framework and liberal Christians (like myself) pick all the verses that reveal Jesus to be a hippie. The idea that there is an unbiased reading of the Bible is as absurd as the idea that there is an unbiased perspective on anything; I think the best we can do is openly own up to our own POV and acknowledge that instead of feigning infallibility and objectivity.

    Which is why Dobson’s comments piss me off so much—they reinforce the spurious notion that there is only one way to read the Bible and one way to be a Christian. A good friend of mine, who is a member of the Catholic Worker community in Dubuque, once said that you really need to be an intellectual to make sense of Christianity. I’m not sure how much I agree with that statement, but I certainly appreciate the sentiment: good theology actually requires reading, inquiring, thinking, investigating, all of which are anathema to Dobson and his ilk. To them, all Christianity really boils down to is a smug sense of entitled superiority over the benighted secularists, feminists, Muslims, liberals, etc. No brain required.

    Just my two cents.

  • “He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”
    2 Corinthians 3:6 (NIV)

    Is Paul recognizing here the inherent failings of the “literalist” approach? Taking him literally, it would certainly seem that way.

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