Obama keeps reaching rhetorical heights

It’s unquestionably true that speeches are not the be-all, end-all of a campaign, and it’s simply not reasonable to judge the merits of a candidacy on rhetoric alone.

But it’s also true that Barack Obama keeps delivering speeches that confound expectations and raise his stature. Last night’s acceptance speech in South Carolina was another gem.

Jon Cohn suggested it may have been Obama’s best speech of the campaign thus far. Andrew Sullivan (who isn’t exactly a neutral observer) said, “I’ve now listened to and read dozens of his speeches, on television and in person and in print. Tonight was, in my judgment, the best.” Noam Schieber said Obama sent one “out of the park.” Slate’s Christopher Beam said, “It was a reminder of how much better Obama is at speechifying than debating…. If debates had 30-minute time limits instead of 30 seconds, the man would be unstoppable.”

Following up on a point I raised a few weeks ago, as a matter of substance, a speech is just rhetoric. As a matter of campaign strategy, an address thanking South Carolinians for their support on a Saturday night probably wasn’t seen by too large a television audience. But I’ve been a speechwriting junkie since I was a kid, and I watch these speeches and keep saying to myself, “Damn.”

If you watch it, pay particular attention to how Obama, with varying degrees of subtlety, not only repudiates Bush and his style of politics, but lumps Clinton in with a broken status quo, without mentioning any names.

“We are looking for more than just a change of party in the White House. We’re looking to fundamentally change the status quo in Washington – a status quo that extends beyond any particular party. And right now, that status quo is fighting back with everything it’s got; with the same old tactics that divide and distract us from solving the problems people face, whether those problems are health care they can’t afford or a mortgage they cannot pay. So this will not be easy. Make no mistake about what we’re up against. […]

“We are up against decades of bitter partisanship that cause politicians to demonize their opponents instead of coming together to make college affordable or energy cleaner; it’s the kind of partisanship where you’re not even allowed to say that a Republican had an idea – even if it’s one you never agreed with. That kind of politics is bad for our party, it’s bad for our country, and this is our chance to end it once and for all.

“We are up against the idea that it’s acceptable to say anything and do anything to win an election. We know that this is exactly what’s wrong with our politics; this is why people don’t believe what their leaders say anymore; this is why they tune out. And this election is our chance to give the American people a reason to believe again.”

It’s the first major speech in recent memory in which a candidate took his rival’s talking points, and used them to his advantage.

Also note, this wasn’t just pleasant talk about bringing people together. More so than after his Iowa victory, Obama pivoted to issue specifics that highlighted why he wants to bring about fundamental change, talking about healthcare, the environment, education, and the war in Iraq.

I was also struck by Obama’s ability to tie progressive ideas to patriotism.

“[W]hat we’ve seen in these last weeks is that we’re also up against forces that are not the fault of any one campaign, but feed the habits that prevent us from being who we want to be as a nation. It’s the politics that uses religion as a wedge, and patriotism as a bludgeon. A politics that tells us that we have to think, act, and even vote within the confines of the categories that supposedly define us. The assumption that young people are apathetic. The assumption that Republicans won’t cross over. The assumption that the wealthy care nothing for the poor, and that the poor don’t vote. The assumption that African-Americans can’t support the white candidate; whites can’t support the African-American candidate; blacks and Latinos can’t come together.

“But we are here tonight to say that this is not the America we believe in. I did not travel around this state over the last year and see a white South Carolina or a black South Carolina. I saw South Carolina. I saw crumbling schools that are stealing the future of black children and white children. I saw shuttered mills and homes for sale that once belonged to Americans from all walks of life, and men and women of every color and creed who serve together, and fight together, and bleed together under the same proud flag. I saw what America is, and I believe in what this country can be.”

It elicited “USA! USA!” chants, which tends to get reporters’ attention.

Whether any of this really matters remains to be seen. In about nine days, more than 20 contests will go a long way in deciding who the nominee is going to be, and in most instances, voters in those states will not have heard any of Obama’s recent speeches. Stirring oratory won’t be enough to carry him across the finish line.

But in the short term, it’s a start.

Truly great speeches go beyond “just rhetoric”, the craft of writing and delivery. Truly great speeches take on a life of their own and inspire others to new life. Barack Obama’s speeches are like that, like those of JFK and RFK. You’re lifted beyond yourself, beyond small talk, beyond your cynicism and doubts. Truly great speeches are food for the soul, and last night’s was indeed a banquet.

Compared to it, Hillary’s graceless, shrill, , pacing, repetitive “concession” — which MSNBC and CNN fortunately had the good taste to talk over — came off as more of the same old hog slop.

  • The contrast between the two speeches was, indeed, striking. I almost (but not quite) felt sorry for Hillary. “Let’s hear it for the band, weren’t they great?… I’m so glad that Chelsea is here tonight…” Her performance reminded me of Bill Murray’s lounge singer persona from the old Saturday Night Live show.

  • It was a great speech, but I was struck by how much of it was cribbed from Edwards – in particular from his SC debate slam on both Clinton and Obama (about how their fighting wasn’t creating jobs or providing health care).

  • “Let’s hear it for the band, weren’t they great?… I’m so glad that Chelsea is here tonight…” Her performance reminded me of Bill Murray’s lounge singer persona from the old Saturday Night Live show.

    Anyone think of Michael Caine singing “It’s Over” in the movie Little Voice? One of the great movie moments of all time. He plays Ray Say, a small time lounge act promoter trying to hit it big. When his self-centered dreams fall apart, he takes the stage and sings a bitter, bitter version of the Roy Orbison song “It’s Over”.

    I found this image:
    http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/8945/cainett9.jpg

  • Round about here…
    He left our room charged with energy.
    No one could sit still.
    We were laughin’ and clappin’ and cheerin’ and dancin’…
    Then Edwards came on…
    And here’s the thing:
    The room went quiet out of respect…
    But then, within 20 seconds…
    The energy started to get sucked out of the room.
    No one could abide his words…
    No one cared to listen…
    Nah. Nah. Nah. Nah… everyone said…
    Enuf…
    So off went the television…
    And just like that…
    The energy came back in the room…
    Everyone went back to laughin’
    And making ass-kickin’ swings with their legs…
    All aimed at the Clintons’ sourpussy rumps…
    Yep…we invented a new dance…
    Call it: ass-kicking time.
    Ass-kicking the establishment…
    Ass-kicking the ugly-power-hungry-people…
    Ass-kicking the Big Dogs that speak with forked tongues…
    Ass-kicking Hillary supporters that want to bring us years more of Clinton rancor.
    We were determined to enjoy it while we could…
    And we did.

    Thank you Barack!

  • I salute Obama’s magnificent oratory. It would be fantastic to have him as president. But I find Hillary Clinton’s voice no more “shrill” than his, and I find her ambitions no more “self-centered” than his.

  • One of the great things about Obama’s speech was that there was no sentiment about ass-kicking his opponents or the supporters of his opponents in it.

  • I find her ambitions no more “self-centered” than his.

    Agreed (somewhat). I would retract my post, if I could. The movie character Ray Say is the self-centered one. My point (that is probably clear only to me) is that an approriate song for the ascendancy of Obama and the diminishing of Clinton might be “It’s Over”.

    PS – I read somewhere, on a blog, that last night may be remembered as the day the 90s ended.

  • Dan S:

    One of the great things about Obama’s speech was that there was no sentiment about ass-kicking his opponents or the supporters of his opponents in it.

    You don’t do subtext do you?
    Did you bother to read any of CB’s supplied links?

    “Obama also took a direct jab at the Bush Administration – which isn’t as typical for him as you might think. Quite in contrast to Clinton and Edwards, Obama doesn’t tend to dwell on Bush and the Republicans. His speeches are all about changing Washington, ending partisan bickering, and such. This time, I thought it noteworthy that one of his first lines was a more direct criticism: “All of us share an abiding desire to end the disastrous policies of the current administration.”
    Of course, that was a lead-in to a more pointed discussion of Clinton’s – or, I should say, the Clintons’ – tactics of recent days: “We are looking for more than just a change of party in the White House. We’re looking to fundamentally change the status quo in Washington – a status quo that extends beyond any particular party. And right now, that status quo is fighting back with everything it’s got; with the same old tactics that divide and distract us from solving the problems people face, whether those problems are health care they can’t afford or a mortgage they cannot pay.”

    Now can you read between the lines?
    Whose ass is getting kicked?
    Check out a few of the other links as well.
    The pundits put it their way.
    I shared the way it was lived over here.
    Same idea though…
    Just different words.

  • Look, I’m almost allergic to hype. The more people become excited about something the more analytical and cynical I become. So I’ve been avoiding Obama’s speeches because of all the hype.

    I think people should calmly evaluate information, decide on the best course of action and contribute as best they can to the desired result. I think they shouldn’t need stirring speeches to get them off their arses.

    In other words, I am, an idiot. But I did sit down and calmly evaluate why a stirring speech is a good and much needed thing:

    People who are aware, even vaguely that all is not well in America are probably feeling a little tired right now. The war is dragging on and on, the economy is spiraling down the drain, gas prices are shooting up and America has become a bad joke around the world. People who are vaguely aware of anything can no longer take pride in the fact that they’re American and all they see from the people who might fix these problems are bickering, threats and caving.

    People are fucking tired and they probably realize that even when BushCo rolls (or runs) out of town, the stink will linger for a long, long time. It’s like the Augean Stables, only this time there’s no river to divert and all you’ve got for clean up is a spork.

    What does a good speech do? It motivates people. It reminds them that they’re not the only one who sees the piles of shit and knows it must be cleaned it up. It doesn’t deny the shit is there and that it needs clearing out. It tells people that they are smart enough to understand and cope with how much shit there is, but at least by acknowledging the shit (rather than pretending the shit is really a pile of gold coins or a lie made up by the liberal MSM) it tells them that the speaker intends to do something about it.

    And incidentally, if you vote for him, he’ll bring his backhoe.

  • Zeitgeist – as I was listening to the speech in the car, there were several times when what I heard made me say, “nice – stole that one from John Edwards.”

    Maybe I’m immune to the magic, because the speeches do not move me, they irritate me. Why do they irritate me? Because I don’t know which Obama would end up being the president – the one who gives rafter-raising speeches, or the one who fumbles and bumbles and can’t seem to say what he actually means. Maybe it’s because he seems to be staking out the position of the only one who can and will heal the divisions, but he keeps talking about the “they” who don’t want us to come together. I can’t be the only one who realizes that in order to keep this unity thing going, he has to keep hammering away at the differences – he has to create or highlight the differences. It’s no less a tactic – it’s just less obvious; he spends a week engaged in the same kinds of divisive and oppositional behavior as the other candidates, and then delivers a speech that casts himself as the healer. The sniping and the bickering and the back-stabbing are actually working for him, because the glorious speeches are designed to create a psychology where the people who are caught up in it will believe that there is no possible way this healer, this unifier, this bring-people-together guy could be in any way involved in the negative stuff.

    It’s the same kind of psychology that cult leaders use on their followers – it’s brilliant, but it creeps me out. It seems to me that Obama supporters have no ability to be the least bit objective about their candidate, his campaign, his history, his record or his behavior. Objectivity is not a bad thing – the world does not shatter into little pieces if you admit that maybe the man does have a fault or two. And I’m not talking the Michelle Obama version where we now all know that Obama has really bad morning breath and he doesn’t put his socks in the hamper.

    And, having written this, so will come the inevitable claims that I really must hate Obama. Think what you want – I just think it’s ironic that not being able to accept that your candidate is flawed means having to cast the criticism of others as hate. That’s a pretty divisive position, don’t you think?

    “Coming together” does not mean that we all abandon our doubts and our questions and rush blindly to the communal table – it means that we have an obligation to listen to each other, to be open to the opinions of others; being an Obama supporter does not mean that you start from a position of being right.

  • “You don’t do subtext do you?”

    I think when Obama criticizes “the same old tactics that divide and distract us from solving the problems people face” he would include among those tactics the tendency to demonize one’s opponents and their supporters. Words have meaning, and “ass-kicking Hillary supporters” is not simply another way of saying let’s rise above the divisiveness of the past, which is the thrust of Obama’s message. Unless you’re saying that is in the subtext of Obama’s message. I hope it is not, because that would make him a hypocrite. And I don’t think he is a hypocrite. I think you misunderstand his message.

  • I think it’s amazing how blind Obama supporters can be. Hillary says something, it’s put in context and seen in absolutely the worst light. Obama says something, it’s but in context and seen in absolutely the best light. I don’t know if it’s calculated blindness or if they’ve just had an extra potent dose of the cool aid. How can anyone hear this speech and the other ones where he talks about Hillary saying anything to win and still think that he’s taking the high road.

    I don’t trust Obama. All speech, no record, no actions. His whole campaign is “believe in me and I will set you free”. Perhaps he has the ability to inspire and enthrall the naive but the truth is that we live in the real world and the next President isn’t going to have an opposition party who hears him talk and suddenly decides to agree with him. I’d rather have someone who knows the game, knows the playmakers and will play the game to the nation’s advantage and the Rethugs disadvantage.

  • What is that saying about wars, the winners get to write the history? If Obama should get to the WH, his high rhetoric will be seen as inspiring a nation. If he doesn’t, it’ll be seen as delusional, idealistic and hollow. Most people vote based on emotional considerations, so discounting his ability to move people shouldn’t be dismissed.

    Similar to tAiO, I’m suspicious of trends and movements, and ornery enough to do the opposite because I can. But I feel the same about long-standing institutions, so this Obama thing is confusing. What makes me lean in his direction is that our current institutional thinking isn’t working and the cynicism that accompanies it is a proven dead end. Not trusting someone because he or she delivers an inspirational speech — and maybe sparks hope in place of cynicism — makes no sense.

    As so many have noted, the difference between Obama and Clinton is more stylistic than substantive. So why not give hope and inspiration a chance? It may be an unknown, but the known we know hasn’t worked out so well either.

    As for last night’s speech, what struck me most was that this was a stronger, more dedicated and more pragmatic candidate than I remember hearing after Iowa. The battles he went through in the past few weeks seemed to make him stronger.

  • I WANT to vote for Obama. I think Hillary supporters overrate ability and experience and underrate charisma and likeability — as Dems usually do. Having people like you matters a LOT more than I’d like to admit. But to seal the deal for me, I want to see some “New” politics in his policy, not just his style. From what I’ve seen, the “New” politics is just a reimaging of the Clinton “third way” — a lot of centrist appeals across the aisle, taking the high road. Being “against the politics of divide and attack” makes me worry that this is just more grovelling for David Broder’s approval that doesn’t work, like he thinks he can be Unity ’08, or win Republicans over by being nice to them. I see no reason why that will start working, as it hasn’t in the past.

    When he first entered, his vote against the war gave me hope he was of the “New Politics”, as represented by Krugman, Gore and the blogosphere, but he has run as HIllary. His policies are as far right, sometimes even more conservative, than Hillary. His attacks on Krugman and Reagan statement — despite obviously not saying he liked Reagans ideas — seems to me that he’s crafting another centrist, triangulating third way aimed at Joe Klein, Broder and Republicans, and that still thinks of us as the dirty hippies.

    What I want to see is for Obama to show me how, exactly, he sees politics differently from the current DC establishment, the way the Clinton’s had so terrified the DC elites by messing up the place.

    So what I want to know is how politics an policy would differ with Obama as opposed to Hillary? Is there any reason to believe he’ll go after the money and power structure any more? That he’ll act any differently in Iraq? That he has a better healthcare plan? If you aren’t the Next Big Thing, I might as well dust off the old Madonna albums and listen to the original than a younger, prettier Britney playing the same chops.

    So far, the subtle message seems to be he’s different because he’ll no longer suck up to the extremists in his party, but that’s not different. What would be different would be to not ignore us and do the extremist things the majority of Americans want that DC pundits find so horrifying.

  • And all I can ask is, what battles? He hasn’t been battling the media – almost all of the coverage has been about Hillary and Bill – highlighting the perception that they are all that is evil and negative. Edwards got a little bump because of his debate performance that showed him to be above the petty bickering.

    If Obama thinks his victory came after a “battle” in South Carolina, he will have a rude awakening in a general election contest. Just listening to the snide and shallow comments the Republicans made about Democrats in the Florida debate, and recognizing how weak the GOP is on the issues, I think we have to expect them to wage a general election campaign that is dirtier and meaner than we’ve ever seen.

    It’s going to take more than stirring rhetoric to beat back the GOP.

  • I think stirring rhetoric CAN beat back negative attacks — if people like you. If people believe in you, that stuff won’t work. But the entire system is built to make us NOT believe in anyone — the Clinton’s are far more transparent and ethical than any Republican Administration, yet are seen as the symbol of all GOP sins. But Obama may be teflon to that standard politics. The media does seem to think this is a Dem they are allowed to like, the only one I can think of, but there will be a LOT of pressure from the right to attack their “darling”. But every time I hear him think, and remember once he has the nomination, we’ll be hearing more from him — I think he can run a “hope” campaign that is impervious to the old attacks. (I think the Clintons are learning that).

    … every time I listen to him, he makes this cynic believe.

  • 1) obama is less likely to get rolled by neocons into attacking iran
    2) hillary got rolled by neocons before and signed on with lieberman-kyl
    3) obama thinks going into iraq damaged our efforts in afghanistan, which he believes is the central front in the war on terrorism. can hillary make this argument, notably against mcCave? of course not.

    i support obama, and now that my state is for once going to count and even be competitive, i will get off my ass. so may we all for our respective candidates.

    and rhetoric aside, obama’s political skills are pretty good. he lured out the big dog with his reagan remark. priceless!

    but it was a great speech.

  • It seems to me that Obama supporters have no ability to be the least bit objective about their candidate, his campaign, his history, his record or his behavior.

    This is getting really irritating. What do you base this on? The “cult phenomenon” comparison is flat-out insulting, and I think you should take it back.

    I think most of us who support Obama are fully aware of his faults and potential downsides. I actually think that if he wins, he’ll have a very rocky first year in office–as JFK did, as Reagan did, as Bill Clinton did. Part of this is simply that he isn’t as experienced on the national stage as either Clinton, or McCain (and he didn’t have the trial lawyer experience of Edwards, who doesn’t “fumble and bumble” after years of sweet-talking juries). But I think he’ll learn from it and get stronger–as every effective president has.

    Again, Anne, this guy did not materialize out of thin air the day he declared for president. He was a community organizer, a constitutional law professor, a state legislator–and in all three jobs he was regarded as brilliant. His U.S. Senate career has already included more legislative accomplishment in three years than your candidate had in six.

    Isn’t it barely possible that those of us who have chosen to support him place as much value on this–and on the policy proposals he’s advanced, which are very similar in substance to the other two and as fully detailed?

    What frustrates me so much about your posts is that you seem to have the same blind faith in Edwards that you claim “we” have in Obama.

  • The guy sounds like a preacher. Well qualified to be a pastor, but I am not looking for a national pastor.

    All those “transformational” presidents like Reagan and Roosevelt were highly partisan guys who had policy objectives they fought for. Just talking about transformation is not proof of ability to deliver.

  • Let’s step back a minute. We used to fault the media for being unfair to Dems, but now they’re at fault for not hammering Obama enough? We want to win an election but are afraid of the guy with lower negatives? We know there’s not much difference between the candidates but demand that one prove he’s different? We know that cynicism is a dead-end, but don’t trust the guy who tries to break down cynicism?

    The more I read and hear I think we’ve become so steeped in the status quo we’re afraid to take a chance and step out of it. There’s no sure thing here, and despite the conventional wisdom that all Dem candidates are good, none of them really represent the kind of progressive changes we seek. Clinton is a known from the past. Obama is an unknown that might be no different, or might be the future. Choose one.

  • The problem with great oration in today’s politics is that people deeply distrust the words of politicians. To the extent that Obama stakes his candidacy on the ability to move people with passionate rhetoric, it’s just that much easier for Hilary (or the eventual Republican nominee, in the unlikely event that Obama wins the Dem nomination) to attack him as someone who puts more energy into talk than action.

    And that’s a fairly reasonable attack. The Obama campaign is then faced with a choice of defending his (limited) actions, or asserting that talk is, indeed, action. So far they’ve been doing a bit of both and it has weakened him in my eyes at least.

    Maybe we’re all just too cynical, and a highly idealistic and motivational President is just what the country needs. But we all know that there are huge and historic challenges facing the country, and talking a chance on someone whose main strength is talk seems pretty scary.

  • If i could change one thing about the brilliant speeches that Sen Obama gives…and they are brilliant if they can spark a little hope in me, a bitter cynic…it would be to have him model them more on the structure that MLK actually used. We’re used to hearing snippets of MLK’s speeches/sermons, not the whole thing. Generally, he started with inspirational rhetoric that lifted the listener. Then he would use the middle section to explain, convince, provide examples, and elucidate his thesis. Periodically he would lift the rhetoric to keep the audience primed. And then his conclusion would return to the heights of oratory.

    Maybe Sen Obama doesn’t have the stuff for the middle, i don’t know. But i will say that if he can get the nomination, i will go to the polls in November to proudly roll the dice. Besides, its not like we have anything to lose at this point…might as well put our last dollar on 00 and spin the wheel, we might just win big.

  • I don’t know what it is, but Barack Obama’s vaunted speechifying really just does nothing for me. He leaves me kind of flat. Maybe it’s because I’ve worked for a couple of narcissist bosses.

  • My observation is that I have to agree with “memekiller” above: Charisma and likability do count a LOT in the general election. If only the people who generally vote for progressive / logical / reality based candidates, then none of that would matter, but the ugly reality in America is that there are still way too many people who vote for the person who has “Shoulders you can land a Boeing on” – “you can have a beer with him” – “has a voice that commands respect” and think that the “$400 haircut” – “Hillary’s laugh” – “Obama’s rookie status” are the main reasons for not supporting them.

    For the people who are bemoaning the “Clintonites”, “Obamaites” and “Edwards groupies” and don’t like how they swoon over their respective candidates…. Keep in mind that none of them amount to the kind we occasionally see here with their rantings about Ron Paul, or the ‘knuckle draggers” who support any of the Republicans.

    I’d say that the ‘class’ exhibited by the Progressive supporters far surpasses the behavior exhibited by some of the Republican sycophants. Not to mention that anecdotally it seems that progressive’s IQ is closer to steam room temperature compared to the room temperature IQ’s witnessed from the 28%’ers crowd

  • I usually go for the wonk. Over the years, this has had me supporting Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, Gore, Gephardt, Daschle, Biden, etc. On the whole, this hasn’t worked out so well. Also, I habitually don’t trust charisma (many leaders with extremely unpleasant actions and policies have been personally charismatic, like so many con-artists, and a mob charging off in thoughtless uniformity is a dangerous thing). However, we have here a guy who seems well intentioned, seems to have the right principles, has a really impressive background, manages to pull off impressive working coalitions to further his goals (with which I largely agree), plus he seems to be able to inspire and excite people enough to get them to come out and vote for him in droves and perhaps to shift from being Nixon’s silent majority, “Reagan Democrats”, and “people who’d like to have a beer with Bush” to becoming ‘Barack Republicans”.

    There are substantive differences between playing to a slim majority that consists of your base + 1 (Bush/Rove), caving in to your opponents (current Dem leadership), and undercutting your main opponents by reaching out to some of their supporters and enticing enough of them to join in a powerful new consensus that can overcome the inertia of the status quo.

  • I just can’t resist:

    “We must move forward, not backward. Upward, not forward. And always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom!”

  • I am simply amazed how deceived Obama supporters are. You people best wake up to the fact this guy takes responsibility for absolutely nothing, and will continue to do so. Rezko in February will begin the reality of how absolutely a dirty politician he really is. The self anointed and absolutely biased cowardly media would rather have a male than female in the White House and this is what it really is. He is part of the good ol’ boys network in a big way and they know it. Place him as the nominee and we will for sure have another war mongering, oppress the little guy Republican be the next President. Wake up people! Do really think that placing an articulate mulatto against a woman candidate was coincidence?

  • Do really think that placing an articulate mulatto against a woman candidate was coincidence?

    Wow. Thanks for chiming in from the 18th century.

  • Rezko in February will begin the reality of how absolutely a dirty politician he really is.

    No, we will learn how dirty Rezko is and how he tried, but failed to buy Obama.

    Besides, if Clinton is the nominee, think about how many old financial scandals the Republicans can bring up.

  • dajafi – you keep wanting to make me out to be blind to Edwards’ faults, but I think I have a pretty good handle on them – and we’d be doing more discussing of them if Edwards were getting the kind of attention Obama and Clinton are, but he’s not. He’s seen as having reinvented himself, leaving some people unable to trust that “this” Edwards is the “real” Edwards, he’s been on the “wrong” side of some issues as a US Senator, he had his money in a hedge fund, he has a massive home – am I missing anything? He gets criticized for being too angry, for being anti-corporate, for demonizing the engine that drives the economy. That criticism mostly comes from those with heavy corporate ties – what a shock!

    I don’t know John Edwards, so I have not been privy to his thought processes over the last four years. I don’t know how his experience running for VP affected him, or his wide’s illness. I think he’s been up-front about his AUMF vote, about the NCLB vote, the bankruptcy bill, etc. I have to choose whether to believe him or not – but at least he is giving me an explanation, and neither refusing to admit he might have been wrong, nor asking us to ignore his record so that he can claim it is something that it isn’t. I think that without Edwards in this race, Obama would be much less credible a candidate than he is, because Edwards has forced both Obama and Clinton to deliver more.

    It’s a lot easier for me to trust that Edwards is more interested in the people than the corporations, because I know he’s not hip-deep in corporate and PAC money. I have an easier time believing that he will be fighting for us, the consumers of health care, because he is not beholden to the health care, insurance and pharmaceutical industries. Neither the Clinton nor the Obama supporters have any reason to trust their candidates on those kinds of issues.

    As for your being insulted by the cult comparison, I can’t do anything about how you feel – I’m just expressing an opinion that is the result of talking with Obama supporters, who, for the most part, do not seem to be able to tell me one thing their candidate will do or aims to do, other than “change the tone” and “bring people together.” HIs speeches, which contrast so dramatically with his everyday ability to communicate, certainly do whip people into a frenzy, but I think they oversell what he can deliver. The same might be said of Edwards – that there is no way he will get the corporations to roll over – but at least I feel some confidence that he will draw a line in the sand and work to get them to give up and give in to get closer to our position, rather than already signalling that he is willing to do just the opposite.

    We may all be Americans, and there may be much that we have in common, but there’s a reason why there is division in this country: people want different things, and they don’t agree on what progress is or how to make it.

    Tell me, if you can, how Obama differs from the Unity 08 “movement;” I don’t think there’s much of a difference. And I sure don’t think that being nice and minding our manners is going to get us the things we want and need. That so many Obama supporters think we will is one of the things that leads me to the “cult” reference – it ignores the reality of our differences, and how time and again, we have compromised and conciliated, only to end up with nothing.

    For me, there is too much at stake to put all my faith and hope in Obama; I will vote for him if he is the nominee, but not with much excitement.

  • Tell me, if you can, how Obama differs from the Unity 08 “movement;” -Anne

    He’s a Democrat.

    What is wrong with reaching out to new voters that pisses people off so much?

    What is it about his record that has so many so convinced he won’t stand for Democratic ideals?

  • Tell me, if you can, how Obama differs from the Unity 08 “movement;” I don’t think there’s much of a difference. And I sure don’t think that being nice and minding our manners is going to get us the things we want and need. That so many Obama supporters think we will is one of the things that leads me to the “cult” reference – it ignores the reality of our differences, and how time and again, we have compromised and conciliated, only to end up with nothing.

    Anne, thanks for the thoughtful response. I do think there’s a tremendous difference–the first being that Obama has an actual policy agenda beyond “Broderism.” If you’re interested, here it is:

    http://obama.3cdn.net/92dbad845b110bf058_wbm6b880z.pdf

    And, at the risk of repeating myself, I think you’re way over-concluding that Obama’s message is “being nice and minding our manners.” What he’s trying to do, as I understand it, is signal to Republicans (the rank-and-file people out there across America, more than the media blowhards in DC and New York) that he intends to be their president too. That’s not to say that he’ll defer to them by any means, but that he won’t dismiss them out of hand–as they feel liberals have for much of the past fifty years. He’ll try to convince them of the value of his goals–ending the war and deploying soft power as well as force against terrorism, finally winning health care, restoring some balance in our economy, taking action against global warming, reforming education from pre-K to post-secondary–and the means by which he wants to pursue them.

    Compromise and conciliation is the inevitable result of disagreement in a democracy–unless you’ve got a Bush/Cheney/DeLay arrangement where they actively try to win with the smallest possible margin. Generally the results from that approach don’t work out well, and they don’t stand the test of time–or so we all hope.

    Clinton seems to think she can triangulate her way to successful policy implementation; Edwards wants to sweep down the walls of evil with a wave of righteous rage. I think Obama’s approach is the one with the best chance to succeed. It does represent a leap of faith–but that’s true of all of them, and this at least strikes me as a more logical leap.

  • What is wrong with reaching out to new voters that pisses people off so much?

    I think in part (and this goes to your second question as well) it is a matter of trust. Conceptually, most politically aware people support a “big tent” theory, understanding that politics is all about having more votes than someone else, at least until you reach 50%+1, at which point people may argue the value of the next marginal vote.

    But people also understand that as the tent grows, the dynamic changes. If the tent gets too large, it is impossible to say what the tent stands for. Everyone I think understands that if a tent is too small, you lose elections, if the tent is too large, it stands for nothing and so the win may be meaningless.

    The tricky part is that in weighing those competing considerations, each person may have their own ideal “tent size.” For many of the people who have been inside, working to keep the tent propped up for a long time, who have been waiting for a chance to get things they want – not the least of which is smacking Republicans upside the head, unstacking (and restacking) the courts, an end to getting outmuscled and outmaneuvered by the Republicans – Obama’s rhetoric seems to welcome a tent size that we find less meaningful and will require too much compromise, that will not allow for Republicans to be properly penalized for years of evil deeds, and instead will welcome in a bunch of newcomers who will be treated better and given more of their agenda than those who have labored to hold the tent up through all of the leaner times.

    Imperfect analogy, but you get the idea.

  • I think you’re way over-concluding that Obama’s message is “being nice and minding our manners.” What he’s trying to do, as I understand it, is signal to Republicans (the rank-and-file people out there across America, more than the media blowhards in DC and New York) that he intends to be their president too. That’s not to say that he’ll defer to them by any means, but that he won’t dismiss them out of hand–as they feel liberals have for much of the past fifty years.

    In some ways the difference between your view and mine is very small: it may amount to no more than a difference of which approach requires more of a leap of faith. I see your passage above and think that operates almost entirely on faith in Obama’s personality being able to accomplish what no one or group of persons has done since the 1960s – when the world and politics were a whole lot different than they are now.

    And as for Republicans feeling slighted for 50 years, thats a wholly Weyrich-Donahue-Gingrich manufactured persecution complex sold to the rural white male masses who, sadly, bought it as the cause of their lot in life. In the meantime, over 2/3rds of all federal judges were appointed by Republicans, and the Republicans have controlled either the WH, the Congress or both for what, 3/4 of those 50 years? And when Dems have been in power they either played nice (Tip O’Neill who never did the hardball stuff the last Republican house did) or talked a good game and then rolled over (Pelosi/Reid). I have a little problem with reaching out to overcome this persecution complex because it risks validating it. I’d rather have someone who looks at them and instead of saying “I’m OK-You’re OK” says “I’m OK, but honestly, you’re pretty messed up. Go see a shrink.”

  • not the least of which is smacking Republicans upside the head, […] that will not allow for Republicans to be properly penalized for years of evil deeds

    Ah, the truth comes out.

    I would suggest that realignment (the political equivalent of “living well”?) is the best revenge. I find it all too easy to imagine that a Republican deeply opposed to McCain (and pro-Bush as a result) in 2000 after eight years of the Clintons might have written your words; this is why this thirst for Republican blood is counter-productive–and ultimately impossible to sate.

    And given her actual record in fighting non-Obama foes, what exactly leads you to believe that Clinton would pursue the revenge you seek anyway? Edwards is the only Democrat in the race with whom I’d consider that even a remote possibility, and I don’t even really believe he’d go that route.

  • Imperfect analogy, but you get the idea. -zeitgeist

    Conversely, inviting people into the tent my help change the way they think. That’s why I always ask about what it is in Obama’s record that makes people think he’s eschewing the Democratic platform.

    Getting voters to listen to a Democrat is the first step in getting them to vote for a Democrat. I’d prefer to think that’s the goal as opposed to changing our ideals to accommodate new voters. I think this option is essentially closed off for Hillary.

  • I apologize in advance for what will be a very long post, continuing the current dialogue with doutful and dajafi, and addressing Ron Chusid’s post of last night that I said I wanted to return to (re his concession that HRC is good on details, but noting that is not a plus for him because he doesn’t trust she will use those skills to the best ends).

    Let me start with some basic assumptions that I used to think were obvious and widely shared, but given some commenters on both sides lately, I cannot take that for granted. First, I fully trust that both Obama and Clinton are better at the details of policy than any of the Republicans, and that both can stir a crowd with a speech better than any of the Republicans, and that both are more than competent enough to be better Presidents than any of the the Republicans. Second, each nonetheless has their strengths: Clinton is better on wornky policy details than Obama, and is better at policy details than at inspiring; Obama is better at inspiring than at wonky policy details and is better at inspiring than Clinton.

    I wouldn’t expect Ron to have taken anything other than the position he took – who would want someone good at policy if they aren’t advancing the right policy? But Ron’s premise seems to be one that he holds in a minority: that there is a substantial policy distinction between Obama and Clinton. I, and it seems most here on both sides, argue to the contrary — that their substantive, forward-looking positions are quite similar at all but the most detailed level. There also seems to be some “but Clintons are triangulators, so how can we trust her stated policies?” To which I have two responses: (1) many of us not sold on Obama see his stated policies as equally taken on faith – he has no more record than she, they have voted largely the same, and to us his big tent rhetoric sounds like triangulation in a prettier package; and (2) I trust that after what the Republicans have done to her for 15 years, once in power she isn’t likely to go out of her way to accomodate them.

    The bigger difference between us (and this starts to address doubtful and dajafi as well) is what we think are the correct goals and reasonable expectations of the next administration. Personally, and pessimistically, I think the mess from 8 years of Bush will be almost beyond belief and that all we know now is the tip of the iceberg. Job 1 (and 2, 3, 4, etc) will be to ferret out and fix thousands of gremlins in the system, from very large to well-under-the-radar small. I see inspiration of little use to that task; I see that favoring a very detailed grasp of the workings of the executive and DC generally – a very inside baseball set of skills. The country needs to learn to walk again before we exhort it to run. It plays more to Clinton’s strengths, while the “post clean up” world will play more to Obama’s.

    That is probably the main substantive reason I prefer Hillary over Barack, although as I have said many times I will be pleased to support either.

    But since dajafi called out my less reasoned, more emotional response, let me address that, too. I may have been flippant, but there is more to it than that. In retrospect, there may be many ways to explain the Republican and press campaign of hate against Hillary (Zelig’s blame the victim concerns that she defended her husband; her handling of health care) but those ignore the reality — the Republicans started in on her back in Bill’s first campaign, before she’d had a chance to do any of those things.

    They started on her for changing her name back in Arkansas. For her comments on baking cookies. For not being matronly like Barbara Bush. For wanting to discuss policy, not just fluff. For taking offense that her hairstyles made news. All of the things that have kept women “in their place” in relationships, jobs, and public life all along. No one that is progressive can possibly claim she deserved this — it is 100% a hyped-up way to attack the Clintons collectively as freaky liberals, as a threat to the conservative culture (i.e. patriarchy). It was cooked up by Weyrich, Dobson, Gingrich etc as a shorthand way to forcing a culture war that they were looking for (I’m in the middle of Jeff Toobin’s “The Nine,” and this part of the right’s agenda is quite clear). And yes, my sense of justice and outrage is appalled at what was done to her, and has been done non-stop ever since. I probably cut her some slack on some of what she does now because I’d be pretty cynical, too, if I’d been treated like she has been for so little reason.

    You say the best revenge is to have a realigning election. That surely would be a good revenge. But to me the best way to make the point is to elect Clinton. It undoes the damage they’ve done to women, but beyond the identity politics discussed regarding both Clinton and Obama, it makes another statement: we will not let you succeed in breaking someone down through concerted, baseless efforts.

    If we analogize the rightwing as the school bully who waits on the street, pushes you around, takes your money and goes and buys all the candy at the store, Obama wants to change the routine – he’ll outsmart the bully by going a block over. He wins, in that there the money isn’t taken and Obama gets the candy, not the bully. But it is a very different statement to go directly at the bully and kick his ass. Electing Clinton shows that even with a 15 year headstart the Right is toothless, it is now impotent. Going around them doesn’t prove that. If they can’t stop Clinton after 15 years, they can’t do jack. They are the little old guy behind the curtain benefitting from a loudpeaker, not the All Powerful Oz. They are exposed.

    Both are ways to win. I’ll even concede that in the short run, Obama’s might bring a longer honeymoon. But in the long run actually beating the bully face to face will have a better, more lasting result because all the bully really understands in the end is force – or farce. If the bully gets beat by the little girl he makes fun of, their entire movement becomes a joke, like they made of the perfectly good term “liberal.” Until they are marginalized like “liberals” have become, they still hold too much ground.

    It is this combination — that I believe there is little policy difference between Clinton and Obama, that I believe Clinton has the right emphasis in her skills for the next phase, and that I believe electing Clinton makes the right statement in reaction to 15 years of rightwing demonization — that leads me to my preference.

  • So many members of W.O.R.M here. (means What Obama Really Meant). People believe what they want to believe but becoming intoxicated with inspiration is like the drunk who suddenly thinks the ugliest girl at the bar is beautiful. I’m with Anne…Obama’s speeches irritate me because I never get any substance from them. Is there anyone out there, repub or dem who doesn’t want our nation to be great? Is there anyone who thinks our nation can never come together again?
    Obama starts off with saying some peolpe will say or do anything to win (but unlike ‘those’ people I would never do that and Americans are tired of that? The status quo is fighting back hard and this is what we are up against…but we shouldn’t fight and should include everybody…everybody gets a pony.
    “…W]hat we’ve seen in these last weeks is that we’re also up against forces that are not the fault of any one campaign, but feed the habits that prevent us from being who we want to be as a nation.( Where everybody gets a pony including the people doing these awful things like the Clintons and Bush and Hukabee, they will all just stop doing those things and take the pony) It’s the politics that uses religion as a wedge, and patriotism as a bludgeon. A politics that tells us that we have to think, act, and even vote within the confines of the categories that supposedly define us. The assumption that young people are apathetic. The assumption that Republicans won’t cross over. The assumption that the wealthy care nothing for the poor, and that the poor don’t vote. The assumption that African-Americans can’t support the white candidate; whites can’t support the African-American candidate; blacks and Latinos can’t come together.(Forget that most of these assumptions are factually true because even Pat Robertson and Dick Cheney will stop because they want the pony too)

    “…. I saw crumbling schools that are stealing the future of …’ (He sees what has happened to America…no ponies) “…I saw what America is, and I believe in what this country can be.” So does this mean you will stand up and be partisan and fight against those wealthy corporate lobbyists who deny Kids SCHIP, or fight against those partisans who want the tax cuts for the wealthy to be permanent, or changing our trade policies, making health care not for profit, end corporate energy welfare for alternative energy, make higher education free like all the other industrialized nations, protect our nations forests and streams from mining operations and loggers destroying them, privatizing our roads…or will you just say we shouldn’t fight and let them have their way like Bush has done because you have hope for what America “can be”? It can only be what we make it and first of all we must rid ourselves of the people and policies which are destroying it.
    In the very first paragraph Obama does what he says others should not do. Trying to turn Obama into some sort of Saint because you are overwhelmed by his pretty rhetoric which to others can appear completely without substance only causes many of us who will support him if he becomes the nominee to harbor resentments at his grandiose displays.

  • Bush, Cheney and Rove set about deliberately to divide this country in order to accomplish their agenda. To unite the country again means to end the divisiveness they have achieved. They will be out of office but the army of lobbyists and republicans and centrists dems left behind will continue to be divisive because their agenda is based on the politics of wealth and power. They must be voted out of office also and their influence overcome by a partisan effort to push a progressive agenda against the obstructionism they support. Based on the disaster of the Bush administration a majority of Americans have come out to support accomplishing this change. But our majority is here now and we can’t get our elected politicians to listen (stopping the war/occupation, no torture, no MAC, no warrantless wiretapping, no telecom immunity, WH accountability, etc.) We need a candidate who is willing to take on these corporate/money party reps and restore our democracy and commit to doing so. I want to hear them say it, not talk about how great things could be if this wasn’t happening. Case in point: read the Nation on Obama’s economic plan and then tell me how this changes anything.
    This stimulus package is just a cover to get away with granting Wall street a profit recovery fund. Helping the taxpayer is a side benefit. People do not give up losing out on making billions without a fight Obama…do you have the stomach for it? Look at what happened to JFK for trying to shut down the CIA. I hope you have friends in low places to help protect your ass, you or anyone else standing up for the people against corporate wealth and power in the age of residual Cheney and Bush.

  • Great speech, as are most of Obama’s. Now all he has to do is show up on Monday and help Dodd in the fight against teleco immunity. Talk to his Senate backers who have been on the wrong side of this thing and get one or two to change their minds. He does not have to be successful, just show me that he is willing to fight on something that may be a loser (although taking a stand might be a winner politically) for the better interests of the entire country and all its citizens. Stand up and inspire a few of his colleagues on something that is a big uphill fight, and he very well may inspire many of his fellow citizens who are leaning his way or undecided (or supporting Clinton or Edwards) to step fully behind him.

  • In reply to zeitgeist’s comment:

    “Job 1 (and 2, 3, 4, etc) will be to ferret out and fix thousands of gremlins in the system, from very large to well-under-the-radar small. I see inspiration of little use to that task;”

    —The damage foisted upon the United States by the Bu$h administration is something beyond the dark corners of most people’s worst nightmares. Those “gremlins in need of fixing”—if we count the myriad Bu$hbots installed in mid-level civil service positions, compromised computer systems, tampered policy protocols, back-door profiteering, crimes against both the Republic and the world-at-large, and everything else combined—won’t be in “the thousands.”

    They will be in the tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands.

    To repair all of those gremlins—or even to contemplate the beginning of such a monumental task—will require a national sacrifice, by each and every citizen, that has not been seen since the depths of the Great Depression and World War 2.

    To suggest, zeitgeist, that inspiration will be of little use is to summarily dismiss the one true tool that can unite the People and lead them to their belief that such a national sacrifice—a sacrifice that will, in all likelihood, require some level of fundamentally-experiential hardship from each and every American citizen, regardless of race, creed, gender, or political persuasion—is necessary, if we are to bring America back from the edge of the abyss that the current administration has placed us upon.

    It is inspiration that leads an individual to the greater effort—and I’m willing to wager that we all realize just how huge that greater effort will need to be. It will need to be much more than just a “Democratic” effort. It’s too big for just Dems to fix, or even to contemplate fixing.

    This must be an American effort, and for that, the tent needs to be bigger than a unilateral Dems tent. It must be an American tent….

  • zeitgeist,

    Great comment. We may not agree on everything, but it is nice to know you have a rational reason for what you think. I think the vitriol and ridiculous rhetoric from all sides has been so ratcheted up lately, it’s hard to tell who has their head screwed on straight anymore.

  • but Steve, my car can have the biggest engine — it can be ready to exert “greater effort” – but if i am lost and have no road map that power is of no use.

    Obama is a quick study, and can surround himself with good people, and he’ll get there on the gremlins. but he is not as much a detail person as Clinton, and she wont need that learning curve to start figuring out where the gremlins are.

    i dont imagine there is anything like being President of the US; everyone that takes the job seems to get started more slowly than planned – cabinets take longer to fill, they get their legs under them more slowly. there is more to know and do, an overwhelming amount of data, and the brightest spotlight imaginable. i am sure Obama will acclimate as well as anyone, but Clinton still has the day one advantage: she’s actually been in the White House, been in that spotlight, seen a lot of where the pushes and pulls come from. she is just much closer to having that road map, and the detail orientation to read the road map, the first chance she gets to sit in the drivers seat, as compared to any other candidate – and to top it off, she has a very, very experienced navigator.

    i think she can undo Bush’s damage faster and more thoroughly than anyone else, even if she is not as inspiring as Obama.

  • Yes—Obama is, indeed, a quick study. Being new to the game has a wonderful advantage to experience—the “new dog” merely needs to learn the new tricks, while the “old dog” may have many a trick mis-learned or obsolete, thus requiring “un-learning” before “new learning” can take place.

    That, as I see it, is the danger of hinging everything on “experience”—especially given that the things that must be dealt with have never before been “experienced” by any Dem President. What the nation faces today is a disaster for which there is no road map—because there’s not even a road to put on that map. What we will need to deal with is the infamous “Tabula Rasa”—the empty slate; the blank piece of paper. Obama’s record suggests to me that he’s more adept at trying things from “square one”—while Clinton’s expertise suggests the application of pre-existing political models.

    I like to think of the current political landscape in a frame similar to “global warming.” None of the current models used for weather forecasting seem to work any more, because we’ve no applicable historical models that show how things will function when a greater percentage of the Earth’s surface is water, when the oceanic saline content is diluted, and when the overall temperature in beginning to increase.

    Of all the concerns I have for a Clinton presidency, one is that she repeatedly boasts of her “experience” as being key to solving all of these never-before-experienced problems. What happens, once that experience is exposed as being inapplicable? Obama’s experience suggests innovation as a key ingredient; Clinton’s experience, while more in-depth from a chronological stance, suggests the status quo of “tried-and-true.”

    I think we’ll be needing more of the innovation-type experience in the years to come….

  • zeitgeist–powerful stuff @41, and I echo doubtful’s comment at 46–both his praise for your post and his observation that some of the rhetoric around here has gone way over the top (and this site is, amazingly, better than most in this regard).

    Tonight I got to read George Packer’s piece in the current New Yorker about how Obama and Clinton differ in their views of the office. I thought it reflected well on both of them. My views are what they are: I still think the Clintons are narcissists who put their own aggrandizement far ahead of progressive principles, and I don’t think the satisfaction of rubbing the Republicans’ noses in their success–even putting aside that a Clinton Restoration is in some sense the fondest wish of Limbaugh et al, as it makes them relevant again and obscures Bush’s failures–makes up for the very likely stalemate that would ensue after her election. Further, I think a second Clinton presidency would end the same way the first one did: with the Republicans in total control of the government and putting the pedal to the metal as they speed toward the cliff. (And the cliff is a lot closer now than it was in 2000.)

    But it’s absurd and dishonest, for me or anyone else, to deny that Sen. Clinton brings a lot to the table, or to assert that she wouldn’t be vastly preferable to any Republican in the job.

  • The tricky part is that in weighing those competing considerations, each person may have their own ideal “tent size.” For many of the people who have been inside, working to keep the tent propped up for a long time, who have been waiting for a chance to get things they want – not the least of which is smacking Republicans upside the head, unstacking (and restacking) the courts, an end to getting outmuscled and outmaneuvered by the Republicans – Obama’s rhetoric seems to welcome a tent size that we find less meaningful and will require too much compromise, that will not allow for Republicans to be properly penalized for years of evil deeds, and instead will welcome in a bunch of newcomers who will be treated better and given more of their agenda than those who have labored to hold the tent up through all of the leaner times.

    You know something, Zeitgeist? I think I have been “laboring to hold up the tent through all of the leaner times” since you were still in plastic pants, and I think there are those here who will agree when I say I take a back seat to no one in disliking the Republican Party – in fact I have actually, personally, probably done more to harm it than you have thought about, let alone attempted, and when I read this sorrry collection of horse manure you just spread, it makes me want to puke.

    Sorry buddy, but finding a way to move past the crap is the goal. If it takes an elbow in the gut to an apparatchik like you, then – here, kitty kitty kitty – come get your nice elbow.

    You need to pull your head out of your ass and get back to smelling reality, bub.

  • In fact, Zeitgeist, you sound exactly like a “movement conservative” setting out to “purify” the Republicans 40 years ago. People like you are actually dangerous.

  • Zeitgeist, though I tend to favor Obama I appreciate your reasoned explanatory approach. It’s a welcome antidote to some of the more heated and emotional fireworks seen here lately. I happen to have had some dealing with some of Obama’s campaign advisors, and found them to be less than inspiring. I see, too, descriptions of some of his other advisors that have me a bit uncomfortable, but I KNOW that I feel that way about many of the DLC people upon whom Hillary relies, so when it comes down to it I prefer rolling the dice on the more unknown quantity. If it was a total crapshoot that would be silly, but it’s not. Obama has shown himself to be a skilled politician and forger of compromise in his statehouse work in Illinois, and the endorsements that he continues to garner from his fellow-senators leads me to believe that they see real talent there. Such people don’t lightly cast their lot with an underdog, especially since if Hillary wins they know there’d be some hard feelings. We’re not getting a pig in a poke, here. Obama’s sharp as a tack, and even if he ends up with some sketchy advisors in the beginning he’s smart enough to recognize that they’ll need replacing if he sees they’re leading him astray. As for the gremlins, well, I’m just afraid that too many of them will remain in any event, and Hillary has shown herself to be too much of a machine politician to believe that she’ll do a thorough house-cleaning. The thing is, even if a candidate fully intends to flush out the stables once they’re in office, they can’t let on at this point because they have to snag some votes from those who would find that vindictive or worse. Campaigns are always going to leave us hoping for the best, no matter who our chosen candidate is.

  • wow, cleaver, i guess there’s a reason people would just as soon watch reality shows as anything an arrogant prick like you would write.

    old as helll sure doesn’t mean mature. maybe you could shut the fuck up and watch how dajafi and doubtful comport themselves for a while.

  • you know, i figure i can waste a double post since its the last time i’ll bother wasting my time responding to you, but man you arereally pitiable. it hard, since you’re such an asshole, but still one has to feel a little sorry for someone who claims to be a professional writer and the best they can do is get off on fantasies of presidents being assassinated. get a clue, pal: to a person, everyone on here thought that was the post of a sick fuck.

    i understand that, being a writer and all, it probably really galls you that i can actually string thoughts together to support my position instead of just lashing out at the world like a sad angry old failure. but Tommy Boy, i have more talent in one finger than you’ve spewed out in a wasted lifetime. and despite being younger than you, i bet i’ve done more to hold up that tent, too. while you were in the tent at the keg, i’ve been working in the offices of elected officials, holding paid staff positions on democratic campaigns, and working for the state party. i’ve likely made more phone calls, knocked on more doors, and raised more money for Democratic candidates that you can imagine in your made up life.

    but when your guy Obama wins the nomination and then loses the impossible to lose election this fall to some clueless Republican because he couldn’t put the party back together, he – and all of the other Obamaists – will have no one to blame but dumbasses like you and ROTF. Because I’d be pretty fucking embarassed to support the same candidate you do – hell, you’re the best advertisement I can think of for Obama’s opponents.

    But you go back to calling for assassinations and other thoughtful things; I have grwon ups to discuss things with while I enjoy Steve’s new “name at the top” feature so I wont have to waste my time reading your self-righteous tripe. Maybe if everyone quits giving you the attention you apparently lack in the rest of your life, you’ll do us all a favor and go away.

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