Obama, the netroots, and ‘conservative frames’

It’s been brewing for quite a while, but over the last couple of days, a lot of prominent Democratic bloggers have been hammering Barack Obama for using “conservative frames” to advance his candidacy. It’s counter-intuitive, of course, given the circumstances — Obama is a top challenger for the Democratic nomination, so one assumes he’d be running to the left, not the right.

But many, if not most, of my colleagues see a disconcerting — indeed, downright offensive — trend from the senator’s campaign. Markos summarized the concerns of many with an item yesterday.

You know, I was going to vote for Obama and even announced that a week or so ago. But this is a great example of why it’s best to wait and see how things shake out. Not being blinded by candidate worship, it’s easier to sniff out the bullshit. And you have to have your head stuck deep in the sand to deny that Obama is trying to close the deal by running to the Right of his opponents. And call me crazy, but that’s not a trait I generally appreciate in Democrats, no matter how much it might set the punditocracy’s hearts a flutter.

Now, I like to think I’m fairly sensitive to Democrats parroting Republican talking points, and I’ve certainly noticed all of the examples that have annoyed the netroots. For that matter, I’d certainly prefer if Obama were far more cognizant of these concerns, because my hunch is that it’s more carelessness than intentional strategy.

That said, I think some of these examples are more grating than others.

Here’s a closer look at the most notable recent incidents, with a patented Lieberman Rating System — 5 Liebermans for the most annoying use of conservative frames, 1 Lieberman for the least annoying.

1. “Attacking” Gore and Kerry: 2 Liebermans

According to one report, based on a person in attendance at an Obama event, the senator was making the case for his electability. He apparently said, “I don’t want to go into the next election starting off with half the country already not wanting to vote for Democrats — we’ve done that in 2004, 2000.” This has been interpreted as Obama “attacking” Gore and Kerry, calling them divisive.

It’s hardly artful rhetoric, to be sure, but I just didn’t read it the same way Obama critics did. My take was far more in line with Oliver Willis’ — as I heard it, Obama was saying that we were dealing with an evenly-divided, 50-50 electorate. Obama, in contrast, believes (rightly or wrongly) that he can move the needle, attract both Dems and non-Dems, and successfully expand the Democratic coalition. I’ve heard Gore and Kerry bashing; this ain’t it. (Also, the Obama campaign claims that the quote itself is mistaken.)

2. Health care and mandates: 5 Liebermans

Ezra noted that it’s “worrisome” that Obama would “flood the radio with ads claiming ‘Clinton would force people to buy insurance even if they can’t afford it’ and ‘Barack Obama will cover everyone.'” Point: critics.

The only major difference between Obama’s plan and that of Edwards and Clinton are mandates. But Obama’s explanation of the difference has, regrettably, used conservative frames in very unhelpful ways.

3. “Trial lawyer”: 3 Liebermans

Over the weekend, the WaPo reported, “In one of his standard riffs, Obama asserts that his career choices — community organizer, civil rights lawyer, elected official — underscores his commitment to public service and to bringing about political and social change. He always mentions the lucrative job offers he turned down, but today he added a new line. ‘That’s why I didn’t become a trial lawyer,’ Obama told the Newton audience.”

If he added the line, it was no doubt intentional, but as trial-lawyer bashing goes, this seems pretty mild. Obama’s point was that he went to Harvard Law and could have made all kinds of money, but he chose to use his law degree to advance progressive ends, not get rich. It’s hardly an unreasonable pitch for the candidate to make, though he probably could have made the same point without the “trial lawyers” crack.

4. Unions are “special interest” groups: 2 Liebermans

Clinton and Edwards have benefited from 527 groups spending heavily in Iowa on their behalf; Obama hasn’t. Because Edwards, in particular, has denounced 527s’ role in campaigns, Obama has been making a hypocrisy charge. In the process, he’s accused “special interest” groups of boosting Edwards, and because some of the groups are union-affiliated, some have accused Obama of taking a conservative, anti-labor position.

This seems like a stretch. It’s not union bashing to have a fight over 527s, and for that matter, the 527 acting on Edwards’ behalf isn’t backed exclusively with labor money.

I get the sense that Obama has developed a reputation in some circles for embracing conservative frames, so there may be greater scrutiny in this area. I also get the sense there’s some Rorschach tests at play — Obama fans see harmless comments, Obama critics see GOP talking points.

On the whole, I’d say Obama needs to be far more aware of the problem — particularly on healthcare — but some of the concerns seems overwrought.

Update: My friend Melissa McEwan asks me to tackle two more examples (which I didn’t include because they came a little further back during the campaign).

5. Social Security is facing a “crisis”: 4 Liebermans

Over the summer, Obama sought to prove that he, unlike Clinton, was willing to be candid with voters about difficult subjects. Regrettably, he chose Social Security, and described the SS system as facing a “crisis.” Dumb move.

I don’t give it the full 5 Liebermans, though, because Obama at least realized he’d messed up, and soon after backpedaled, conceding that the system faces “challenges,” not a “crisis.” Better yet, he also dropped the whole issue from his talking points, which was a big step in the right direction.

6. The McClurkin debacle: Incomplete

I wasn’t sure whether to include this one, because it doesn’t quite fit in the “conservative frame” discussion. It was a big campaign mistake, but Obama, as far as I can tell, wasn’t using (or accused of using) Republican talking points.

To briefly recap, the Obama campaign hosted a gospel event in South Carolina in October featuring a homophobic entertainer — Donnie McClurkin, a Grammy-winning singer, who claims to have been “cured” of homosexuality, and believes other gays can overcome their “curse” by way of prayer.

There were doubts, raised in some circles, about whether the campaign deliberately chose an anti-gay performer for the concert, as a way of scoring points with bigots. All evidence suggests otherwise — Obama aide Steve Hildebrand, and a prominent gay adviser, Tobias Wolff, conceded that the campaign simply didn’t do its due diligence, and didn’t realize what McClurkin had said about gays. They also stressed Obama’s “unequivocal” commitment to gay rights, denounced McClurkin’s anti-gay views, and added an openly gay minister to the gospel event. If this were an effort to “throw gays under the bus,” the campaign wouldn’t have taken those steps at all.

[comment deleted]

  • “and I’ve certainly noticed all of the examples that have annoyed the netroots.”

    Message to netroots: YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY VOTERS OUT THERE! Some of us in the moderate camp find this strategy refreshing!

  • Steve —

    Once again, you’ve hit the nail on the head. I want an “authentic Democrat” — one who will stand up for our principles. Those who attack Hillary have a point on triangulation, etc. But, I don’t want compromise for compromise’s sake (Liebermanism). What is the “change” that Obama promises? Answer that for me, and maybe I’d vote for him. All I hear from him is talk about reaching across the aisle. The other side of the aisle only sees compromise as coming from others coming over to their position (look at Mitch McConnell in the Senate right now). The Republicans only respond to power, not to compromise. When we hold the House, Senate and White House, we need to rule with strength. Remember, the current president didn’t even win a majority of the popular vote and thought that he had a mandate.

    Of course, I’ll support whoever is the Democratic nominee. I just want somebody who will stand up to obstructionism rather than finding reasons to give in.

  • Frankly, the thing I dislike most about Obama is his attacking the “Washington Insider” credentials of his opponents. Especially Hillary. Seems to me that eight years of Clinton/Gore saw Welfare Reform, Budget Surpluses (not real operating budget surpluses but still) and a couple of SUCESSFUL wars (Kosovo anyone?).

    It’s not like Washington always gets it wrong. In fact, it’s the dumbass Bushites from Texas and Liberty University that have screwed us over for the last seven years, and they weren’t part of the Washington culture before 2001 (in fact they’d probably deny being part of it now).

    So frankly Mr. Obama, shut the f*ck up about Washington Insiders already.

  • Can you expand a bit on point no. 2, which you seem to take to be the most serious yet spend the least time discussing? I don’t think I even understand the problem sufficiently to have an opinion on it. It sort of sounds like what you’re saying is that Obama’s characterization of the difference between his plan and Clinton’s is basically accurate, but he shouldn’t point that out because it supports criticisms that conservatives have also made of Clinton’s plan? I just can’t see how that’s a problem.

    As to the rest of the quotes, I don’t see how they register on the Lieberman-meter at all; certainly the trial lawyer dig is a pretty valid point. Obama was the first black editor of the Harvard Law Review; he could have gone to any law firm in the country and would be making millions of dollars a year as a partner by this point. Edwards might argue that he made his fortune while also advancing progressive causes, but it certainly speaks well of Obama that he forewent both lucrative private practice employment as well as the prestigious government work that he could quite easily have obtained to use his law degree directly in the service of the less fortunate.

  • I am a lifelong democrat who hated what Bill Clinton did in the 90s as far as pandering to the right.
    However, I just do not see this as being what the bloggers are making it out to be.
    I actually think alot of the anger is not what Obama is saying but, what he is doing. He is taking the lead in polls and Edwards has not gotten over the hump. It is looking, but not for sure, of course, that Edwards won’t take the top spot. And Obama is in a zone now.
    I noticed the real whining began when the des moines register poll came out.
    Besides, many of democrats have felt and said all of these things.
    I see on the comments overwhelmingly people saying no to mandates. I don’t want mandates. I think they will cause problems for poor and working class.
    I also have used Gore and Kerry. And Dukakis and Mondale.
    I fear the bloggers are going to make some hard truths we need to face, an issue not to face. To deny. Truth is, the democrats have chosen the establishment and boring or weakest candidate with high unfavorables so much it is now our m.o.
    Bloggers are calling the pot black here. They have been exhibiting signs of adopting right wing ways more and more to push their own private views and are becoming hard nosed against opposing opinions. You MUST like mandates. Or you are being like republicans (republicans would sub the word terrorists).
    And the anger level. You must kill your opponet because they are evil.
    Excuse me? When did progressives start copying conservtive tactics?

  • My biggest complaint and worry about Obama is his line about politics in Washington being a “partisan food fight”. This necessarily begs the question: Which issue is just a partisan food fight? Iraq? FISA? Social Security (I’d guess this is it, given his statements on the issue–and this is the glaring omission in your list, Steve)? Alito? Torture?

    I know it plays into the favored story lines of David Broder and Joe Klein that “both sides are equally to blame”, and to low information voters who have a “those clowns in Washington” view of politics, but it makes one wonder what President Obama is going to propose once in office. I foresee two months of frothy, warm-milk blather about coming together and common ground, followed by two years of Mitch “Lucy” McConnell pulling the football away, while those pundits who celebrate Obama now chastise him for not finding a way to make Republicans more reasonable (and Democrats less shrill), followed by the GOP running against his “failed presidency” in the 2010 midterms.

  • If Obama is leaning to the right, then I must be Lenin incarnate. Rorschach, indeed. I pretty much agree with everything he’s said including the health-care comparison. In Massachusetts, we now have mandated health-care coverage and I haven’t seen it as any sort of panacea. If you can only afford a plan that in fact provides you with esentially no protection, that’s what you’re stuck with under the law. Everyone ought to be entitled to exactly the same plan. And I think that is what he was trying to point out.

  • “Health care and mandates: 5 Liebermans”

    Waitaminnit… Obama folded on Sunday’s Meet the Press, recognizing that not having mandates creates a “free-rider” problem – and he proposed that signing up after getting sick should draw penalties. The very next day Krugman said on his blog “Fine with me” on his blog. Essentially, Obama listening to progressive concerns and corrected course – I like that.

    In the meantime, Clinton is attacking Obama’s plan saying people will be denied healthcare – that is an utter lie – the problem of mandates creates a free-rider problem which is a cost issue, but saying the Obama plan will deny healthcare is a lie. So I give Hillary Clinton’s attack on Obama – 7 Liebermans

  • YES, But he is peeling off Republicans in the process. An IOWA Republican mayor switching parties to vote for Obama.

    This is a new day that Obama is starting uniting the contry as opposed to deviding it. Those, in both parties, who want a divided country dont like him, most of America does and will. Most people want someone who can reach accross party lines and Obama is proving he can.

    EXCLUSIVE! Mayor Rickard to vote for Obama
    BY GERSH KUNTZMAN
    The Brooklyn Paper
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    Brooklyn, Iowa, in the heartland between Dubuque and Des Moines, is known as “the community of flags.” These photos were taken by The Brooklyn Paper staff during a visit in 2005.
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    BROOKLYN, IOWA — The longtime Republican mayor of this tiny heartland town will stun his neighbors — and send shockwaves that will reach his countrymen in the real Brooklyn — when he breaks ranks with the GOP to vote for Sen. Barack Obama at the Iowa caucuses this Thursday night.
    “After eight years of this administration, I’ve had it,” Mayor Loren Rickard told The Brooklyn Paper, which sent a reporter to Brooklyn, Iowa — population 1,200 — for the “first-in-the-nation” caucus.

    “We’ve got a currency that’s practically worthless and a war without end,” he added. “I thought they were crazy to start the war with Iraq — and crazier that they didn’t even seem to have a plan to fight it.”

    And Rickard said he’s not only dissatisfied with the president, but with his would-be successors.

    “I’ve been a moderate Republican all my life and I simply don’t recognize these people [the GOP field],” he said. “Meanwhile, the Democrats have six solid candidates — though I think [Dennis] Kucinich is a bit out there.”

    Rickard singled out Joe Biden and Obama for praise — but said he wouldn’t back Biden because “he can’t win.”

    Few in the farming town in eastern Iowa know that their third-term Republican mayor will side with the Democrats on Thursday. And it might not have happened were it not for the efforts of Obama supporter, Bev Rens.

    “I held a house party for Obama and [the mayor] came with his son, Joel,” said Rens, the Poweshiek County Democratic Party co-chair. “He listened to what I had to say and he pledged to vote for Obama that night. It sent a shiver through me!”

    Rens said she also scored the mayor’s son, who was originally backing New York Sen. Hillary Clinton.

    The Republican crossovers were no surprise to Brooklyn (Iowa) Chronicle Editor Sky Eilers.

    “There are many Republicans in Iowa who feel that their party is in trouble in November, but they also don’t want to see Hillary be president, so they’re switching parties to back other Democrats,” said Eilers. “Hillary has had the biggest machine behind her here. Some people feel she’s buying her way through the process while Obama is appealing to the grassroots, which is what you have here in Brooklyn.”

    Eilers didn’t think Rickard’s betrayal of party would send a shockwave through the town.

    “Shockwave? In Brooklyn [Iowa]? I don’t think so,” Eilers said.

    But he did think many eyes would be following Rickard as he entered the Democratic, rather than Republican, caucus.

    “He is very well respected here, so people will certainly talk about it,” he said.

    Under Iowa election law, registered voters can switch their party affiliation on caucus night, which Rickard said he would do by signing in as a Democrat at Thursday’s gathering at the Brooklyn-Guernsey-Malcolm elementary school.

    Despite the excitement over the presidential election, the caucus process in Brooklyn is subdued, Rens said. In some years, only a handful of Democrats and Republicans have gathered, she said.

    “I started in 1988 and was caucusing for Jesse Jackson,” she said. “There was six or seven people there, total.”

    But this year, turnout is expected to be high at both party caucuses. The Republicans will gather at 6:30 pm and begin with a straw poll of all voters in attendance, while Democrats start a half-hour later — and dig in for an arduous process.

    First, supporters of each candidate get to make a presentation, hoping to sway the undecided. Then, a vote is taken. Candidates who receive 15 percent or more are considered “viable,” and move forward to a second round of voting. Supporters of “non-viable” candidates can shift their allegiance to one of the viable candidates or form alliances with supporters of other “non-viable” candidates before the second round.

  • I don’t like it when the Dems go after each other over stupid stuff. The top three (and some of the others – Dodd, Biden) all have the qualities and smarts needed to be president. I know they need to differentiate between themselves, but let it be over the important stuff.

    As far as Obama, the biggest mistake I’ve seen him make is inviting the homophobe minister to participate in whatever that event was a couple of months ago. Even after it was pointed out to him, he refused to disinvite him. This smacks of pandering to the fundies and I doubt it worked. It just made those of us on the left mad.

  • I’m not sure I see any of the Obama frames above as egregious given the hardball nature of most campaigns.

    That said, it really did rub me the wrong way the first time I heard his TV spot about hot wanting to spend the last 4 years “fighting the fights of the 90s.” As Lance said @ 4, this strikes me as playing into the Republican/Broderesque meme that it doesn’t matter who is in charge, they’ve all done equally bad (which Repubs then spin as “so no government is good” and Broder then spins as “the only answer is an uber-bipartisan conciliator”). There have been 7 catastrophic years under Bush, and he slams on the only Democratic administration in the past 30 years instead? It also ignores – again, in a Broderesque way – that those fights were not the responsibility of both parties. Those fights were a thoroughly Republican creation, attempting to deny the Clinton presidency any legitimacy because to them he was a pot smoking, Europe traveling, draft dodging hippie (and I still haven’t figured out why that is a bad thing. . .) So that is the Obama frame that most bothers me – I’d give it 4 Liebermans, especially in a massively-repeated TV spot.

    I was also bothered by the South Carolina Gospel of Interolerance Tour; a pretty pure pander to the right really.

    So I can safely say that (a) Obama has said and done things that bother me much more than those in the main post and (b) I do think taken as a whole the pattern merits scrutiny and he should not just get a pass because he is charismatic.

  • This is the scariest post I’ve read in a long time. Not because of the usual Democratic nit-picking of a front-runner, but the thought of all those Liebermans running around out there! Yikes.

    Hopefully it’s too late for the schizophrenic net-roots to fuck this up and hand the nomination to Hillary.

  • Hey Jackson, if you’re selling crazy, we’re all stocked up. To coin a phrase.

    I’m glad CB started putting the poster’s name in the first line. It allows the skip post filter to work more easily. e.g. If line one contains “JRS Jr” move to next post.

    The downside of the idea of bringing the two sides of the aisle together is you have to equate them. And Republicans have opted out of reasonable politics. They are separate but not equal.

    Even with Obama’s tendency to equate Dems with Reps, the primary campaign, so far, has been amazingly civilized.

  • On the whole, I’d say Obama needs to be far more aware of the problem — particularly on healthcare — but some of the concerns seems overwrought.

    This analysis misses the importance of context. Obama’s use of right-wing talking points can’t be evaluated by looking at each use in isolation. I’d agree that, in isolation, the mandates flap is by far the worst with the others you mention being of significantly less concern–although you’ve missed the second worst example of Obama framing Social Security as being in crisis–but the pattern of right wing framing and subsequent denial thereof by Obama is a real problem that’s even worse than his mandates framing.

  • I fell in hope with Obama after his key note speech in 2004. Turns out that was a momentary passion fueled by all that sweet talk and pretty smile. In the end I prefer reality: so now, if I can’t have Kucinich, I will take Edwards.

    Look, if both Obama and Huckabee are leading in Iowa, maybe the problem is with Iowa…. or our news media? Neither H nor O seem to be exactly on top of things although Huckabee”s ignorance is completely in a stratosphere of its own. Maybe Iowans want to go to lala land: on the (Huckabee, I speak for Jesus wagon); or the (Obama, I am peace wagon) and the real problems be damned?

    Send Edwards some money. He is fighting an uphill battle: no corporate media coverage and less money coming in as he tries to not take corporate IOUs.

  • doubtful wrote:

    Hopefully it’s too late for the schizophrenic net-roots to fuck this up and hand the nomination to Hillary.

    Don’t you have anything else to do?

    Re: the “trial lawyer” thing

    I agree this is often used in annoying conservative lines; here, where Barack is tossing it off once, I don’t really care.

    But the conservatives would try to do something like buy off a star like Barack to get him into private practice and away from the community organizing. I’m not surprised at all he was getting those kinds of job offers while he was doing that kind of work, and we’re all better off because he “stuck with it” and didn’t take them.

  • ***note to JRS***”…Some of us in the moderate camp find this strategy refreshing!”

    What the hell is a “moderate camp”? If Obama is attracting republican votes by being more like them I’d be concerned. Perhaps there are those who agree that the obstructionism in the Senate is appropriate and the dems are as much to blame as the repubs.

    Dems have bent over backwards to ‘compromise’ with congressional repukes and without a strict partisanship (at least for the next few terms) by dems we will never get this country going in a new and different direction. The country is so far right now that it’s hard to see the center as it used to be. Obama strikes me as a corporatist willing to cater to the money party…these dinosaurs of pork…these centrist beltway ‘insiders’…the porky pigs who pay little attention to their constituents and focus instead on the interests those with the money to give.
    This is from noquarter.blogspot.com:
    Uh huh. Yeah, right. Here’s a reality check: “ABC News reports that an ad the Obama campaign released yesterday on lobbying reform excised a quote in which ‘Obama promised to ban lobbyists from working in his White House — a pledge the Illinois Democrat seemed to have backed off from earlier this month’.” (TPM) Also check out, “ABC News: Obama Ad Omits Lobbyist Reference.” Then there’s the just-posted report from the NYT’s The Caucus that a month after Obama promised there’d be NO lobbyists in his White House, “he later amended his position, saying that lobbyists would not ‘dominate’ his White House.”
    History Can Be a Bitch: “Barack Obama may be talking the talk on the campaign trail as he attacks special interests and lobbyists in Washington,” noted ABC News’s The Blotter in July, “but last year Senator Obama introduced bills-at the request of lobbyists-that would save foreign companies millions in customs fees and duties.”
    Then There’s Reality, Again, Chomping Up Those Fine Words: There are “Lobbyists on Obama’s ’08 payroll,” reports The Hill. “Three political aides on Sen. Barack Obama’s (D-Ill.) payroll were registered lobbyists for dozens of corporations, including Wal-Mart, British Petroleum and Lockheed Martin, while they received payments from his campaign, according to public documents.” That’s right. Obama has paid lobbyists who are “double dipping” while his campaign tries to deny it.”
    Much more about Obama at that site. Not intended as a smear just information.

  • I think all the worry about these “examples” being conservative frames when Barack is using them is exaggerated.

  • Nadeem said: “YES, But he is peeling off Republicans in the process. An IOWA Republican mayor switching parties to vote for Obama.”

    And we actually WANT a Democratic nominee who appeals to Republican’ts?

    I’m not so damn sure about that.

    I’ve got to agree with Evergreen. I think the problem is Iowa. And damnit they are going to be cutting down our choices with their 1% caucusing population. Make me want to tear my hair out.

  • Obama’s public religiosity is offensive. ‘Reminds me of the republican field. I wonder if he’d support a “moderate faith based” theocracy? How about individual school choice for science or bullshit?

  • Right now is when a lot of the purity rhetoric gets way overheated. Remember the Dean wars of 2004?

    Seems to me it’s a lot less important whose policy is what, because they’re all so wildly different from our current shitpile that they would all be a huge improvement. What I want is a person who can beat the shit out of the Republican corporate whores. If he’s it, then fine. If not, fine. I think a good hard primary fight is a good way to see who can land a punch and make it stick, we’ll need that in the general more than ever.

    When Kos said “None of them walk on water” he was right. We don’t need a messiah, we need a fighter who’s smart enough to win the general election. IMO either Obama or Edwards would be a fine candidate.

  • Don’t you have anything else to do? -Swan

    Oh, I’m sorry, I didn’t notice I wasn’t allowed to post my opinion in these comments. I guess you think they are reserved for your often rambling, multi-comment diatribes. Thanks for letting me know.

  • Making Lieberman the standard for evil here makes a good point. Barack Obama is no Joe Lieberman. On some issues, such as the war, it is even Clinton and Edwards who were closer to Lieberman when it counted.

    What is important is how you view the Democratic Party. If you see the party as a static entity which is frozen in the past then Obama could be seen as a problem. However if the goal is to form a winning coalition, then the Democrats need someone like Obama who could bring in the votes of independents. I find it amazing that so many Democratic bloggers are also bashing Obama because of the large amount of independents, and even a handful of Republicans, who are backing him.

    http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2628

    Rather than five negative points, I’d give Obama ten positive points for understanding that mandates will not fly politically in this country, as well as understanding that they are absolutely not necessary. People who repeat Krugman’s arguments do not fully understand both how health care delivery works and how it is perceived by most voters.

    Barack Obama did not change course on Meet the Press as someone above posted. He was just showing that there are many ways around the free rider problem without resorting to mandates, as I noted at the time of the show. When the controversy broke I noted that the higher premiums was one of several possible solutions. Last month I noted that there is precedent for such a solution in the Medicare D Program, which is voluntary but includes mechanisms to protect itself against the free rider program so that people will be less likely to wait until they have expensive drug costs before signing up.

    http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2616

  • Ron, I have no problem backing Obama as long as he’s rock solid on Social Security. That’s one issue on which as a Democrat he has no need whatsoever to equivocate by aping Republican talking points about it somehow being in “crisis”.

  • I’m with Doubtful at #16 on this. Campaigns have to play hardball with their opponents, and if the Netroots sink the candidacy that has the best shot at derailing Hillary, we’ll only have ourselves to blame when we get screwed over in November. Speaking of memes and frames, do we really want to perpetuate the long-standing myth that the Netroots are crazy radicals who will settle for nothing less than socialism. I was a resident of Obama’s state senate district in the Hyde Park neighborhood of Chicago, and I guarantee you, the guy is a genuine progressive, no matter what his strategic rhetoric may be in the final days of the Iowa madness. Compare that to someone like Edwards, whose Senate record follows the DLC playbook, and you know who the real progressive is. Obama would be a MUCH better candidate than Hillary; I hope these sentiments from leading blogospherians do not thwart his momentum!

  • As an Obama supporter, I would tend to agree these problems are magnified in the blogosphere. I understand why progressives find his rhetoric grating, but I really can’t understand why informed voters would consider more impressive rhetoric (Edwards) over a more impressive progressive voting and advocacy record (Clinton/Obama).

    It’s no secret that Obama is running on an appeal to moderates, so his rhetoric of compromise, and attacks on other candidates “divisiveness” in Iowa isn’t surprising. What is important is demonstrable progressive voting record, and history of championing progressive legislation. He’s in favor of open government, protecting social security (even if Krugman, and others despise his talking points), withdraw from Iraq and a return to reason in our foreign policy, and obviously supports the welfare state, and more specifically universal health care. He also believes we’ll need the help of moderates in congress (including some on the Republican side) if we ever intend to see the plans implemented. Obama believes with a new Democratic administration – and a hopefully larger Democrat margin in Congress – new legislative opportunities will open. With the help of a unified base, and a policy of compromise, I really do believe Republicans in congress will recognize the benefits of cooperation.

    Edwards/Hillary/Krugman types point to the dismal failure of the Reid/Pelosi-style Democrat led Congress, and their strategy of cooperation, as indication that Obama’s approach would fail miserably. With a Democrat in the White House, and a widened House Democrat majority come 2009, a Republican would have a hard time pursuing the same obstructionist path they rely on today. A Democrat that pisses off the right is sure to get plenty done, but also virtually assures a unified, obstructionist right. An Obama administration, though, can entice those moderates on the right that are tired of the Bush years, and anxious to avoid 8 years of losing battles. An Obama administration of cooperation will hopefully isolate the hard right, and allow a fundamental realignment of the political spectrum.

    At least that’s what I believe. Without some grand catastrophe, like the Great Depression, an Edwards or Clinton “attack” or partisan approach seems doomed to failure in the long run. Voters are biased against drastic changes, and will err on the side of caution, without some stimulus for change. A more moderate approach seems wise in an age of great prosperity, when the average American, when the time comes, will be skeptical of sweeping changes. We need to bring along independents and moderate republicans, further isolating the hardliners, if we want long term change.

  • I interpret these supposed gaffes to merely support Obama’s insistence that he would try to reunite America, which badly needs doing – the Right and the Left are now so far apart that virtually no common ground exists, and the conditions are nearly bitter enough for civil war. Maybe he couldn’t do it, but somebody has to try it.

    As for the trial-lawyer crack, in politics, you have to sell yourself; not only will your opponents not do it for you, they will work hard at making you look avaricious, dishonest and sneaky. Sometimes it must be embarrassing to point out every bit of good you ever did, because we traditionally expect people to pick up on it without having it spelled out. Not in politics. It’s all about getting the most votes. I don’t think it necessarily indicates a compromised agenda.

  • I wanted to support Obama early on–I even sent him $$, but he lost me with the “social security crisis” (as David W. @17 mentioned). That is old fashioned anti-New Deal Republican shit. I was barely tolerating the religiosity (as CH@ 25 mentioned) because I figured that was the price of getting a progressive, but misrepresenting the problem with social security closed the door. Both of these are as important as his poor health care plan and deserving of many Liebermans.

  • I like Atrios’ take on Obama:

    In his own subtle way, running against the party – at least to the extent that it’s part and parcel with the Village in general – has long been Obama’s message. But he’s also long been good at blurring just what that meant, wink wink nudge nudge suggesting he was running to its left even as he used rhetoric which suggested he was running as David Broder’s love child.

  • We seem to be moving into “Obama is righteous and incapable of mistake” territory with the faithful here. If a candidate is not aware that everything he or she says will be examined carefully, then that candidate is a fool. Obama is no fool, so I suspect he knows exactly what he is saying. Hillary is accused of triangulating, but these recto-Obamaisms are every bit as cynical and self-serving as anything Hillary does. With Huckabee stirring the pot and Giuliani cratering, there are many right leaning positions available for a clever politician to espouse while they lay unused by the Republicans. Dislike of trial lawyers, Edwards aside, is an intrinsically right wing position. I wait to see if Obama mentions “voter fraud” or a death tax.

  • Well, We Love IOWA !

    Barrack Obama is about to WIN in Iowa !

    Good for Iowa !

    Good for America !

  • It’s quite likely that some of my feelings on what kind of Democrat we need in the WH have been shaped, lately, by reading Charlie Savage’s book, Takeover: The Return of the Imperial Presidency and the Subversion of American Democracy. I am not even halfway through it, and even though I have been aware for some time now that the WH was shredding the democracy, Savage’s book puts it all together in a way that brings home just how dangerous these people are, and how much damage they have done – damage that could stand a good chance of being, if not perpetuated, at least available as precedent.

    I am hard-pressed to think of much where “reaching out” to Republicans makes sense, since, one presumes that if Republicans were or are as alarmed about what Bush and Cheney and their minions have been doing, they would have made some effort to reach out to us to fix it in the first place. On torture? On warrantless wiretapping? On military commissions? On the wholesale disappearance of what used to be considered public documents? On rendition? Seen much of that reaching out to us in the last 7 years? No? Me, either.

    This country needs a fighter, not a conciliator, because given what we truly need to fight for, there is no room for conciliation. We need someone who knows where the line needs to be, and won’t equivocate about fighting for that, even when the other side starts to whine and invoke 9/11. We need someone who will fight to get back the democracy we need to have here, in this country, in order to have any credibility in the rest of the world.

    I like the fight I see in Edwards, and I like that he understands the anger in America – that he isn’t willing to ignore it just because it’s not as mannerly as it could be. He seems able to cut through a lot of the BS and acknowledge what the problems are – that’s one reason I think his message resonates with a lot of people. I think people sense there is action behind the words – and I don’t get that from Obama. All I get from him is “vote for me because I say I’m different,” and that’s not enough to make me truly want him to be the president. Oh, I’ll vote for him, but it won’t excite me – it will be more about being happy that the GOP lost than being truly excited that Obama won.

    Really, though – if you want to read something that will crystallize what’s really important, I would highly recommend you read Charlie Savage’s book.

  • Using conservative frames may be advantageous in the short term since they already exist. But isn’t this in essence what so many of us criticize Congress for doing — allowing bogus conservative frames to stand but not creating new liberal/progressive frames that would give the D party something tangible to stand for in the minds of voters?

    Edwards may or may not be capable of effecting the change he talks about, but at least he’s trying to roll back the blanket of R frames that have so pervaded public thinking, and replace them with new frames more in line with liberal/progressive thought.

  • I’m starting to want to vote for Obama just to annoy Jacksom.

    Just curious, Jacksom, what’ve you got against Oprah?
    The woman is a heroine among house fraus nationwide (don’t ask me why) and she’s perhaps second most famous for having a successful BOOK CLUB.

    Who’s Clinton’s “celebrity”? Magic Johnson. A womanizing HIV positive ex-athlete.
    Pander much?

    Snake oil??? You love that word, doncha?
    Can you at least add some VARIETY to the spam you spew?

  • And we actually WANT a Democratic nominee who appeals to Republican’ts?

    Yeah, we do.

    We in the interwebs tend to conflate professional Republicans (think Mitch McConnell) with amateurs–the people who were turned off by Kerry’s perceived elitism and Gore’s pedantic tendencies but were open to voting for Bill Clinton and have the same concerns we do about health care, economic inequality (at least as it pertains to them) and lives and treasure squandered on dumb, counter-productive wars.

    We can (and do) mock them for their ignorance and incoherence, but guess what–in our democracy, their votes count as much as ours do. That they’re open to Obama–a dark-skinned guy with a weird name–is an unlikely and precious political gift, and one progressives would be intensely stupid to toss away for some misguided notion of purity–especially if it works to the advantage of Hillary Clinton, who’s both less progressive than Obama and utterly detested outside the precincts of the Democratic Party.

    Otherwise, I think this discussion is beyond stupid, and it reminds me that I’d un-register as a Democrat in a second if doing so wouldn’t make my vote in New York even less valuable than it is now.

  • Ron Chusid, while Jacksom is clearly nuts, the one decent point in his post (#9) is the TPM comparison of Obama and Clinton’s actual votes on war related legislation. The difference is not stark, like you make it sound — quite the contrary.

    The more I think about it, the “trial lawyer” frame (as part of Obama passing up big money jobs) also strikes me a little disingenuous (although, since I work in a primarily defense firm, far be it from me to fight Edwards’ battle on this for him – he made the mistake of coming to a young professional Democrats meeting in Iowa four years ago that was nearly all defense attorneys and slammed on defense attorneys for most of his speech, alienating the whole room). As Bubba notes, civil rights lawyers generally are trial lawyers. Moreover, it does repeat a major Repub talking point. But the most disingenuous part is that while Obama may have passed up big money law jobs, that is pretty easy if you wife works at a huge downtown Chicago firm (i.e. one of the big money jobs). Sidley & Austin, I believe.

    Finally, as to the fighter versus majority building part of the thread, I hate to sound overly simplistic, but my increasing support for Clinton can in some part be explained in Goldilocks terms: at this point, Edwards is too bombastic and polarizing (right or wrong, a pure, hardcore class warfare argument has never succeeded in a modern Presidential general election); Obama too conciliatory toward Rethugs who will merely take massive advantage of outreach attempts. Clinton, by taking less of a “lets be friends” with Republicans approach than Obama, yet doing so without Edwards’ hard-to-govern from flamethrowing is (yes, in a moderate, centrist way that is generally disfavored around here) looking about right.

  • So—a bunch of folks here are saying that it’s somehow a cardinal sin against the Holy Book of DEM to “campaign to the right of Hillary?” How exactly is it that anyone who dares to run under the Democratic party banner should keep turning more and more to the left? Isn’t that exactly the same as GOPer candidates turning more and more to the right?

    Playing to “Das Base” is a both-sides-of-the-aisle thing, people—get over it. You cannot spend seven years badmouthing the Bushylvanians and then support a Dem who does the same thing. Hillary and John are trying to establish a Dem “bubble”—and you folks think that’s an okay thing to do?

    How should I put this? IOKIYAD?

    The country is not split down the middle, with one side Red and the other Blue; rather, it is a great big bell-curve creature, running from deep Blue on one outlier and deep Red on the other—with varying shades of Purple in the middle. Whether by accidental lack of effective planning or by willful intent, Obama’s move here makes tactical sense, offering GOPers the opportunity to step out of the blood-n-guts morass that their “party” (read: cult of fate-worse-than-death fearmongery) with a viable chance to gain a seat at the table. The GOP, as it stands today, is a malignant disease; a pox of politically-pandemic proportions that, in the past seven years, has ignored strategically-important intelligence predating 9/11, lied us into a meatgrinder-of-a-war, invaded our privacy, spied on us, cheated millions of citizens out of their homes, their health, and their livelihoods, violated most of the tenets of the Constitution, committed atrocities listed on the books as war crimes and crimes against humanity, raped the national treasury, enriched the hyperwealthy at the expense of the nation’s fiscal integrity, humiliated the definition of the words mounted at the feet of the Statue of Liberty, and spit upon the very ideals set forth by the Founders when they declared independence from an earlier rendition of our current “George Rex.”

    The candidate who runs only to the Left will appeal only to the Left, suggesting a message that says, “You on the Right! You made this mess, and we’re gonna get you for it!” Everyone on the outside of that message will feel it necessary to prevent that message from becoming reality—and the only way to do it will be to vote GOP.

    But—the candidate who runs a bit further to the Right—which is actually not really the Right, but more like the Center—will appeal to a much larger audience with a message that says, “You on the Right! You helped make this mess, and if we’re ever going to get it cleaned up and get this country back onto the path where it belongs, then we’re damned-well going to need your help in doing it!”

    Two messages—the same accusatory tone, but an entirely different outcome scenario. And besides, why in the infernal regions should a candidate wait until after winning an election to start offering conciliatory messages to the disaffected who voted for the other guy? Why not try pushing that button now, and strip the eventual GOP candidate of several dozen electoral votes?
    Like I said—strategically and tactically, it makes good sense….

  • 35. On January 2nd, 2008 at 1:02 pm, Mudge said:
    We seem to be moving into “Obama is righteous and incapable of mistake” territory with the faithful here.

    “moving into”? Hell, they’ve been there long enough to need new carpet.

  • Zeitgeist, your premise is based on the idea that Obama isn’t tough.

    I’m confident that he’s going to prove you wrong, and I’d rather see it unfold that his initial carrots to Republicans are replaced, if need be, with sticks, than watch Clinton try every tool in the box to reach out to people who won’t agree with her or cooperate with her under any circumstances–mostly because she would have no chance, ever, of turning their constituents against them.

    That’s the thing about Obama (or, say, Biden, were he to hit a wave of support)–the more he appeals to Republican voters, the more leverage he’ll have with Republican power brokers. And he can be a pretty sharp-elbowed guy, as his history in Illinois politics suggests.

  • I have said it before and I will say it again: I want a true statesman in the White House. Not another party lacky. Almost no one is entirely conservative or entirely liberal (and we should be very wary if we find someone who is either). If we could honestly look at ourselves we would find that on some issues we are more liberal and on others we are more conservative. But we allow ourselves to be so caught up in the labels (conservative, liberal, etc) that we fail to recognize the possibilities available if we reach out.

    Think about it. Not a single one of us is ever going to agree with every opinion from any other person…period. That means that even the most hard-nosed theocratic wingnut might agree with you on environmental issues or the most socialist-leaning lefty might find common ground on certain points on national defense. This is why we need statemanship. Finding these points of commonality is how leaders advance the things they see as important.

    I am sick of the do nothing politics of hard nosed trench warfare. If all we ever do is dig in and oppose the guy on the other side of the aisle, then we accomplish nothing.

    Reaching across the aisle doesn’t mean bend over and take it. It means having honest dialogue and finding the one or two points on which we can agree with that particular person.

    The person who most embodies this ability should be the one in the White House. For me, that person is Barack Obama, though Edwards or Clinton or Biden would be ok too.

  • I also find Senator Obama’s apparent inclination to, on occasion, parrot right-wing talking points annoying (I’m sorry, but I don’t believe that the “trial lawyer” comment was any more accidental than the bookshelf/cross in Governor Hucklebee’s Christmas ad). However, when you put his voting record as both a state and U.S. senator up against the voting record of either Clinton or Edwards, it’s clear that Obama is a solid progressive.

    None of these candidates are perfect. We all know Clinton’s flaws, and of course, Edwards is criticized for his senate voting record and for making millions working for a hedge fund while promoting anti-poverty policies (i.e. his votes and lifestyle appear to be out of sync with his stated values). Still, I’d happily take any one of the three over any of the Republicans.

    But Obama’s voting record, economic and foreign policy proposals and speaking skills (despite the rare right-wing talking points), make him the most likely to win in a general election with a strong progressive mandate. The goal is to get into the White House, and once there, get things done. So in the primaries, I’m voting for Obama.

  • Doubtful, the country is in a really dangerous position right now: the Republicans, if they get elected to federal offices, can wreck the country and not be held accountable. Right now, a sizeable portion of the rank-and-file Republican voters think it’s basically ok if a major American city like New Orleans or New York City is completely destroyed, or suffers a devastating, paralyzing terrorist attack, and the Republicans in charge of dealing with the disaster completely bungle the job. We cannot afford Republicans being elected again and again, but Democrats like you do not treat the Republicans as people we have to keep from controlling our country. You think we are all basically equal as long as we are sane adults.

    I wonder if Democrats like you will keep ragging on Hillary if she is elected President of the United States- unless you wise up, my bet is that you will. You will help create the conditions for another Republican backlash that may put another Republican President in power after Hillary, instead of ensuring the continuity we need so that Democrats will be able to make sure Democratic policies are adjusted so that they work, even if a preceding Democrat doesn’t implement the perfect policy the first time. Maybe in earlier years, criticizing Dems like Gore and supporting unviable idealistic candidates seemed like a luxury we had, but now that things are much clearer and much different. We cannot save this country if we keep putting it in the hands of people who, even when they do start to see things clearly, tend to just blame all their own suport for Republican policies on talk radio (that is, Rush Limbaugh), instead of taking any step to criticize their fellow Republicans or to change things back to sensible policies.

  • Chris wrote: “Edwards is criticized for … for making millions working for a hedge fund while promoting anti-poverty policies (i.e. his votes and lifestyle appear to be out of sync with his stated values).”

    Talk about a Conservative Frame! Why do you buy into the Republican’t crap that you have to be poor or act poor to care about the poor?

    Oh, look, John Edwards has a big house! See, see! He doesn’t care about the poor!

    Right…

  • You think we are all basically equal as long as we are sane adults. -Swan

    To begin with, you don’t get to put words into my mouth. I said no such thing. I’ve implied no such thing, and you do not get to make up my positions to support your argument.

    I wonder if Democrats like you will keep ragging on Hillary if she is elected President of the United States- unless you wise up, my bet is that you will. -Swan

    I’m not a ‘party before country’ loyalist. I tend to be a Democrat, yes, but mostly I identify as a progressive. I will always continue to be critical of all politicians, regardless or party, ethnicity, and gender. None of that matters to me. What matters is what they say they will do and what they have done.

    I’ve made this clear to you countless times, and yet you still single me out with your rude remarks.

    You will help create the conditions for another Republican backlash that may put another Republican President in power after Hillary… -Swan

    She doesn’t need my help to create a backlash, she’ll do that all on her own assuming she can win in the first place; a scenario I grow to doubt more with each passing day.

    Maybe in earlier years, criticizing Dems like Gore and supporting unviable idealistic candidates seemed like a luxury we had, but now that things are much clearer and much different. -Swan

    Are they? This country is in crisis and you’re preaching party unity, a sin the Republicans have committed that has gotten us to where we are today. I don’t think mimicry is the best course of action. When our civil liberties are threatened, we should demand extra vigilance.

    I’m not rolling over for someone I disagree with because they have a (D) after their name. You can shout party unity from your soapbox all you want, but I’m not listening.

    And for the record, not supporting someone who is complicit in our involvement in Iraq and the Bush Administration’s power grabs is not ‘idealistic.’ It’s fucking common sense. I can’t believe how much the Democratic party preaches peace out of one mouth while making war plans out of the other.

    …instead of taking any step to criticize their fellow Republicans… -Swan

    And yet here you are, again, as you have so many times before, berating me for criticizing a ‘fellow Democrat.’ The irony is palpable.

  • Responding to Lance’s post, he might think that my opinion is crap, but please rest assured that it’s not Republican crap. I’m perfectly capable of thinking for myself, and I personally have a problem with anyone who speaks so much about poverty while unnecessarily taking advantage of the some of the tax and economic policies that he or she criticizes. Actions speak louder than words…as they say. Still, I would whole-heartedly support Edwards if he were the Democratic nominee.

    Following up on my post at 10:14, here’s an interesting link to a New York Times article that compares Clinton’s approach to economic policies with Obama’s:

  • Chris, what exactly does “unnecessarily taking advantage of tax and economic policies” mean? That John Edwards should have paid income tax rates on is Hedge Fund profits instead of 15%?

    Should he be the only person in the country who does?

    I still don’t get it, and it still rings like a Conservative Frame to me. It still sounds like you’re saying one can’t support helping the poor while making good (great, I suppose) money at work.

  • Chris, thanks for that link. The NYT piece is really quite interesting. Short form: on health care, HRC proposes mandates (as does Edwards) and Obama disagrees; while on retirement savings, Obama proposes mandates (in a sense) and Clinton disagrees. The lack of a philosophical consistency in both cases is fascinating. The other general theme of the article was Clinton’s preference for numerous targeted programs versus Obama’s simple, broad approaches. His approach seems a little naively simplistic to me, but obviously I’m not an Obama supporter so I have a bias.

  • doubtful, you’ve got a lot more patience than I do. Kudos to you, and I couldn’t agree more that both principle and country come way before party.

  • hey doubtful – quick side discussion i’d like to have – if you’re willing, drop me an e-mail at badzeitgeist (at) hotmail (dot) com.

  • Responding to Lance again, I’m saying that Edwards should never have gone to work for an organization that takes advantage of offshore tax havens for the benefit of it’s managing partners and investors and conducts operations outside of traditional regulatory contraints that competing investments are subject to. I emphasized the word “unnecessarily” because this employment could not have helped Edwards’ cause or his political career (in contrast with Democratic candidates who might necessarily elect to accept campaign contributions from PACs or benefit from 527s while criticizing our campaign finance system since you can’t fix it if you don’t win).

    Senator Edwards sets the bar high, and he and his supporters should not be surprised if his association with the Fortress Investment Group calls his sincerity into question. I believe he’s sincere, but I also believe that this association could interfere with his message during a general election if he were to be the Democratic nominee.

  • Swan has clearly a shown that he/she is a radical partisan, no better than those on the right wing.

  • Man, I hate all these Liebercrats criticizing individual health care mandates from the right. Don’t they know it’s a keystone of progressive policy??

    […]

    “There seems to be tremendous focus on how precisely individuals and businesses would interact with some grand health care plan, of how exactly to get them to sign up. To me that part’s rather easy. Send everyone a membership card in the mail! All done.

    “Even recognizing the political realities of the situation, it seems that the way to sign everyone up is to… sign everyone up. Instead of having ‘mandates’ requiring that people sign up to some plan, just sign them up. Instead of mandating that they pay their premiums every month, just pay for it out of general tax revenues (adding a new payroll tax or raising top marginal rates or whatever to do so).

    “Even if insurance companies are in still in the mix I see no reason for people to have to proactively sign up for some plan they may or may not be able to afford.”

    Atrios. May 31, 2007

    […]

    “But what is striking is that in this entire book, [Stan] Greenberg only makes a few substantive, specific policy prescriptions – and the most prominent is a recommendation for an individual health-care mandate, that government should require citizens to buy their own heath insurance ‘much as drivers have responsibility for acquiring auto insurance.’”

    “It reminds me of the time Nelson Rockefeller, upon his inauguration as governor of New York in 1959, tried to mandate that every New Yorker spend about $2,000 in today’s dollars on a home bomb shelter. He was shocked when his advisers told him how many citizens would balk at what seemed to him such a piddling and crucial expense.

    “Where does this come from, this astonishing lack of political will that finds liberal pollsters, armed with liberal poll results, thinking with the economic arrogance of billionaires?”

    Rick Perlstein, The Stockticker and the SuperJumbo: How Democrats Can Once Again Become America’s Dominant Political Party; pp 9-10. 2005.

    […]

    Curse those timid souls Rick Perlstein and Duncan Black, sucking up to David Broder and reinforcing right-wing frames! That’s the only possible motivation for being critical of individual mandates!

  • David W:

    Ron, I have no problem backing Obama as long as he’s rock solid on Social Security. That’s one issue on which as a Democrat he has no need whatsoever to equivocate by aping Republican talking points about it somehow being in “crisis”.

    The attacks on Obama over this are an exaggeration. Obama is correct in looking at the long term demograpic trends which will require adjustments in Social Security. He is not calling for privatization or otherwise aping Republicans on this. I find Obama’s willingness to discuss this to be more realistic than people like Krugman who consider any consideration of the topic to be a Republican talking point.

  • Zeigteist:

    Ron Chusid, while Jacksom is clearly nuts, the one decent point in his post (#9) is the TPM comparison of Obama and Clinton’s actual votes on war related legislation. The difference is not stark, like you make it sound — quite the contrary.

    Adding in the votes after they were at war, and especially after Clinton changed her view, doesn’t mean much to me. I’m concerned about the candidate’s judgement when it comes to making the initial decision as to whether to go to war. In that case the difference is stark.

    All three candidates are certainly pretty close to each other at present and quite different from Lieberman on the war.

  • NPR ran a piece this morning on Social Security’s imminent demise using all of the wingnut talking points. Whose sound bite opened the attack on the only progressive victory over the last seven years? Senator Obama, of course. His quote made this grossly dishonest piece “bipartisan.” I don’t know how we forgive him for running on the Republican talking points and giving them even more ammunition.

  • 1) With the current squatter in the WH spending money hand over fist in Iraq while giving out tax cuts to millionaires, I’m not so sure Social Security isn’t in crisis, or won’t be soon. (No, I’m not a Rethug, thank you very much.)

    2) Re Obama’s talking about religion: with all of the rumors floating around that he is a Muslim, I’m not going to begrudge his mentioning that he is a Christian more than a few times. Not that I would have a problem if he were, but too many ignorant folks do.

  • Ron @ 61

    I’m concerned about the candidate’s judgement when it comes to making the initial decision as to whether to go to war. In that case the difference is stark.

    My only problem with this is that talk is sufficiently easy that comparing Obama’s talk with Clinton & Edwards’ votes seems apples and oranges. When you look at Obama’s actual actions once he was in a position that it mattered, where the spotlight and the stakes were the same, his actions are identical to hers (and, I would add, once it was “just talk” Edwards suddenly got a lot better – proving again, talk is easier.)

  • I am less impressed with Obama’s repeated claims to have opposed the war “from the beginning,” in light of what he has done with his opposition since he came to the Senate. And I think that is…not much.

  • The so called Jackson, Jon and Charly, cleary seems to come from the same person and very much likely to be a Clinton staff. We vote on ideas not hatred. We have listened to all candidates and know exactly where they stand on issues. NO RACISM HERE. Politics of slush and bum at the last minutes will just drive more away from the Clintons. I used to like Billary, but not any more especialy after showing immaturity in campaign by going negative in a very foolish way. The kindergarten story will be the highlight of this campaign after Clinton is defeated. Go Obama, we like your policies and your authenticity.

  • Only Kucinich has a credible health care plan based on one universal payer. Edwards goes in that direction. Obama and Hillary are crap on the subject.

  • zeitgeist,

    The war was already in progress once Obama was in the Senate so it is irrelevant that they voted the same. Obama opposed going to war while Clinton and Edwards supported it That is the key difference between them and the the subsequent votes do nothing to change that.

  • hey bjobotts, #22, why not use links to cite other articles? can’t find any caucus entry that has the quotes you used. the others probably don’t exist either.

    when you can’t find anything to back you up, you make it up. great.

  • You make several points in your blog that I am trying to understand.
    1. You mention that a candidae observes that he/she doesn’t want to go into the election with 50% of the country not wanting to vote for their party and hypothesize that this is a slam against the people who run when 50% of the country really did not want to vote for anyone who ran on the democratic ticket. How do you consider this a slam against an individual when it was true?
    2. You bring up a persons choice to not persue being a trial lawyer as a slam against trial lawyers. This means that any individual who chooses not to persue a profession, as a matter of personal choice, is slamming that field. This means that each of us has slammed all other professions that we have chosen not to persue in our careers. It really doesn’t make sense.
    3. You consider a person running for office to verbalize hat our Social Security sysem is facing a crisis is inappropriate when anyone above the age of 16 readily does so. ???????????????????

    One thing I do agree with you on is that any person who runs for political office in this country must prostitute him/her self to one of the two political parties and big money corporations and can do little in the way of significant change due to the political bills they pile up in route to the office. It is fun to still think we actually can change things by who we elect isn’t it?

  • Comments are closed.