Obama wants five debates; McCain wants 13; we may get three

June 13, 2008

For the last 10 days or so, the McCain campaign has been pretty aggressive in pushing its desire to have a series of town-hall debates with Barack Obama, with neutral audiences asking questions. Obama has publicly expressed some interest in the idea, prompting McCain to announce he’d like to see a total of 10 events, in addition to the three debates organized by the Commission on Presidential Debates (CPD).

The two campaigns actually began discussions on the subject this week, though it appears the talks have broken down without any agreement.

The talks between the McCain and Obama campaigns on debates appear to have broken down, with Obama’s campaign — evidently concluding that the format could favor McCain, or at least give McCain some oxygen — offering just one town hall and one extra debate in response to McCain’s suggestion of 10.

“We fear that our negotiations over joint town hall meetings are turning into a debate about process,” writes McCain campaign manager Rick Davis to Obama campaign manager David Plouffe. “That is exactly what we have always hoped to avoid, and why we proposed a town hall format that would render many of these process issues moot. As Senator Obama has said, he is prepared to meet ‘anywhere, anytime’ for a town hall.”

Plouffe responds that “it’s disappointing that Senator McCain and his campaign decided to decline this proposal. Apparently they would rather contrive a political issue than foster a genuine discussion about the future of our country.”

When Plouffe referenced “this proposal,” he was talking about the Obama campaign’s suggestion that McCain and Obama meet for all of the CPD, plus another debate focused exclusively on foreign policy, plus a town-hall debate at a location to be determined.

The McCain campaign said this wasn’t good enough.

I’m actually a little surprised the McCain didn’t accept the Obama proposal. The notion that these two would meet 13 times (10 town-halls and three CPD debates) between now and November was never realistic, and the Obama campaign was offering to participate in more events than we’ve had in a presidential campaign in the modern era. If McCain is so anxious to get together, wouldn’t he prefer five to three?

Or maybe this wasn’t about actual debates at all, but rather, about McCain having something to whine about on the stump. It seems entirely likely, given the response today, that McCain wasn’t especially interested in 13 debates; he was interested in having Obama turn down his idea so he could complain about it.

For all the reasons I described last week, I’m actually glad the talks aren’t going anywhere. A lengthy series of debates undermines Obama’s financial advantage. A lot. Indeed, the whole thing is a double-edged sword — if Obama agrees to the lengthy series of debates, he gives up a key campaign edge; if Obama declines, McCain characterizes him as spineless.

The offer for five debates was pretty generous. Under the circumstances, I wouldn’t be surprised if the McCain campaign changes its mind and takes the offer — it’s unlikely to get a better one.

I find it infuriating that McCain can whine about Obama not showing up for his first townhall last night. Obama just clinched the nomination a week ago! McCain became the presumptive nominee three months ago. Isn’t it fair to assume that Obama needs some time to transform his organization into a general election campaign? The guy is not superhuman.

  • Under the circumstances, I wouldn’t be surprised if the McCain campaign changes its mind

    I’d be surprised if they didn’t change their mind. It would be the first time in this campaign that they stuck to a position before flip-flopping and embracing its polar opposite.

  • I wish Obama had taken them up on the intial offer but I understand why they didn’t:

    Camp McCain knows Gramps can’t go the distance, so they’d come up with a ton of requirements that would be impossible to meet and then scream “See! He broke his promise!!”

  • we proposed a town hall format that would render many of these process issues moot– Rick Davis

    Kind of reminds me of the Bush Administration’s position on “due” process. We’re a nation of laws, but don’t take that too literally.

  • It sounds to me as if someone’s going to throw a tantrum because Obama didn’t walk into a stacked audience last night. Ask me if I care….

  • “For the last 10 days or so, the McCain campaign has been pretty aggressive in pushing its desire to have a series of town-hall debates with Barack Obama, with neutral audiences asking questions”

    John McCain may get his chance to really appear with Barack Obam in a town-hall debate before a neutral audience before this is all over.

    “More tears are shed over answered prayers…”, St. Theresa of Avila

  • I think one thing we can count on is that Obama is studying, learning and practicing so his performances will be even better in either of these venues than it was during the primary. While McCain is sitting on his ass not bothering to improve his knowledge at all.

  • I agree that this is a little bit of a double-edged sword, but I think the Obama camp is making a little bit of a mistake here. Dictating the topic is the opposite of an actual townhall (over at Salon, AK indicates one it to be about foreign policy, the other about the economy).

    NOBODY is going to fault Obama’s camp for not agreeing to the ridiculous amount of 10 townhalls. But some neutral people will definitely fault them for not being able to come to an agreement on, say, 2 or 3.

  • For the last 10 days or so, the McCain campaign has been pretty aggressive in pushing its desire to have a series of town-hall debates with Barack Obama, with neutral audiences asking questions.

    You know what I’d like to see? A debate in which the statements of each candidate were briefly responded to by a fact-checker with a computer (presumably a partisan supporter for the other guy). So McCain or Obama would answer a question, and the fact-checker would give a brief overview: “You said this, but these are the facts according to so-and-so,” or “You said this, but two years ago you said the opposite.” Steve Benen or Josh Marshall would make reasonable checkers for the Democrats; I can’t think of anyone with comparable insight and intellectual integrity for the Republican side. It would at least make for good political theater.

  • The Obama camp is exactly right. John McCain is punching himself in the face. The only thing that a debate would do would be to elevate John McCain.

    Man, it is funny who things go. If I told you 12 months ago, that the democratic and republican candidates had been chosen and one of the campaigns were in trouble I don’t think that anyone would have guessed it would be the Republican. If I also told you it was Barack Obama and John McCain, I think that most of us would have assumed that it would be Obama’s campaign that was in trouble. It is funny and weird how things turn out.

    I guess that means that anything can happen between now and November.

  • This issue was dead on arrival for McCain as soon as it was revealed that his idea of a “town hall meeting” was to pack it full of supporters just like Bush rather than having a real mix of people. No one will blame Obama for not falling for it and the more McCain whines the more foolish he’ll look.

    Not that it will matter to him, but he’s pretty clueless anyway.

  • Hey RSA, I have had that same idea, but I doubt if the Republicans could field a computer-literate person with integrity. I think an on-line debate with a neutral moderator would be awesome.

  • No one will blame him? Apparently you guys don’t read Salon. Which is probably for the best, really. But here’s what Alex Koppelman and Mike Madden had to say on the topic:

    It appears that Obama’s camp should bear the brunt of responsibility for the failure to come to an agreement, especially as their counter-proposal seems half-hearted at best.

    Ridiculous – Obama is responsible for the failure to agree? It takes two to tango. The initial proposal was absurd – not the concept, but the number.

    I also don’t understand everyone claiming talks have “broken down” already. The negotiations have only just begun. I repeat: ridiculous.

  • That odious lothsome toady brad Blakeman was on Dan Abrhams last night ( I REALLY need to stop watching that show) and Brad was fillibustering and blustering during his segment about how Obama was too afraid to show up at the NYC townhall last night. Honestly, that’s ALL they’ve got. Effing whiners.

  • Just finished watching Firefly on DVD. I think it would be sad if there were more presidential debates than episodes of that show.

  • PJ,

    That’s going to be the brunt of the narrative from now until Election Day, that somehow, for various reasons, Obama’s being a total jerk to McCain. Part of it, of course, because the MSM LOVES them their McCain-cooked BBQ. But it will also be because the MSM has a vested interest in keeping this as much of a horse race as possible. The public is sick of Bush, McCain is offering more of the same, and Obama is making significant ground less than 2 weeks after officially clinching the nomination, and less than one week after Hillary offificllay dropped out. The MSM needs to be relevant, if they are not relevant there is no reason for there to be so much coverage. So to maintain relevancy, they will continue to give Obama a little more of a hard time, and McCain MUCH more of a free pass. Imagine if the two men were running an actual foot race – it would be a blow out. They’re going to tie weights around Obama’s feet and roller skates on McCain’s to keep it interesting, and never admit it.

  • Back when the debates were going to approximate Lincoln-Douglas style (debaters questioning each other, lots of time to speak, no moderator, no questions from the audience, no panel of reporters), I was excited. Now that LD style has devolved into townhall style (no followups, for instance), feh.

  • slappy, I am resisting categorizing one of my favorite rags as part of the MSM, but War Room sure does disappoint sometimes. You’re right, though; besides the whole BBQ thing, if they call it for Obama now, they won’t have a horse race to shout about for the next T-minus-five months.

  • Take a look at McCain’s latest “town hall” meeting with invited guests only, and you see the real invitation is “let’s see you debate me when you’re the only black person in the room!”

    Next, McCain will challenge Obama to a drinking contest in a tavern that caters only to white cowboys and KKK members, and he will suggest that Obama could please bring his own rope also.

  • I don’t know why there should be any debates until after the conventions. Only then do the candidates have platforms that they are supposed to run on. Also, the only thing that voters would retain from earlier debates would be gaffes that show up in attack ads, and any differences between what they advocated in the debates preceding the conventions and the party platforms coming out of the conventions would be silly flip-flopping exercises.

    One thing that is wrong about campaign ’08 is that it has gone on for too damn long. Compressing whatever debates there are into the 6-8 weeks before the elections would be a small step toward emphasizing that time period as when the important election campaigning should occur.

  • McCain is playing Garfunkel to Obama’s Simon – wanting the spotlight that the more popular man might provide him. 13 meetings? Please… McCain would miss too many afternoon nappy-naps, so there’s no way he’s seriously wanting that. It’s *definitely* a ploy to get Obama to say no and provide McCain with something to whine about to his choir.

  • Obama needs to develop a new line to diminish McCain when reporters ask why he isn’t going along with some new demand from McCain’s camp: “Whatever”. Then point to the next reporter for a different question.

  • Sigh once again Obama supporters justifying every move Obama makes. I think the Obama supporters know and are afraid to admit that Obama has the advantage only with favorable media and with prepared speeches.

    What is Obama afraid of? If he is such a great speaker, has a better handle on the issues, etc why wouldn’t he want to debate? His counteroffer of scripted staged debates is a joke. I think that Obama would expose himself in a town hall meeting as an empty suit who can’t think on the fly. His adhoc moments up to this point have reflected that. However Obama supporters will have one excuse after the other however I think they know but don’t want to admit the truth to themselves 🙂

  • Hmmm, I was so absolutely bored with the later debates running into the final primaries, if we had 13 debates, they would be spouting the same old, same old 13 times.

    Trust me, 5 is more than enough to listen to McSame spout scripted propaganda. Obama wants to talk to the people, in front of them, he’s about looking humans in the eye and talking to them. Not some TV Camera where dishonesty is easier to hide.

    People who see Obama, know in their hearts he’s sincere, so he is sticking to meeting the citizens of this nation face to face and not hiding behind a camera with a preselected “friendly” crowd.

    Honesty, vs hiding. I’ll pick looking the guy in the face any day over ANOTHER TV debate.

    Elyce

  • Elyce I hope you know you just described exactly what town hall meetings are so you gave justification for Obama to attend; thank you. The “debates” you refer to is what Obama is offering McCain.

  • It seems that everyone has conveniently ignored the most simple reason for Obama’s refusal to McCain’s town hall meetings – that Obama doesn’t want to be out-debated. Sure, Obama is an eloquent speaker, but his campaign is obviously afraid that he will appear less “divine” to the average person attending one of these meetings. The media paints Obama as a messiah of sorts, but in real life, he would likely stumble in a town hall debate with McCain – a discussion where the issues are more important than ones ability to smooth-talk.

    P.S. McCain may be old, but don’t count him out. He definately still has some kick left in him.

    P.P.S. This comment will likely not be published as a result of its lack of liberalness, but at least one person will read this.

  • This was a clever move on McCains part. The hardcore Obama and McCain supporters won’t be swayed by facts or anything else but independants and moderates will examine this and question why Obama is afraid to participate in real debates.

  • Cyros, I applaud you. I am relieved to see that there is at least one other person in this country that has some common sense.

  • Ditto J Trot. I’m hoping Obama supporters come up with some valid reasons or that Obama proves me wrong and agrees to the debates and does well.

    I have my views on Obama do to research that I’ve done so the final verdict isn’t in but so far what I see isn’t promising. I always hope to have my viewpoints challenged but this one I don’t see happening.

  • Well, I think that if Obama doesn’t agree to at least 30 debates a day for the next 5 months, it means he’s afraid of McCain so he won’t be able to stand up to Al Qaeda and he won’t visit Baghdad and did I mention that the surge is a brilliant success?

  • Radio Birdman it sounds like you’re being sarcastic due to the debate frequency but the surge is a success. I don’t agree with the reasons why I think we went to war but the fact is there are a lot of positive results happening in Iraq hence the media blackout. Unfortunately with liberals the “we’ve lost cut and run” mentality is no longer applicable.

    The number of debates is not an issue at least with me. It is the matter of agreeing to at least a couple non-scripted non-mediated debates with questions from citizens. I guess I don’t feel that is too much to ask or expect of someone who wants me to vote them to the arguably most powerful position in the world.

  • I think an on-line debate with a neutral moderator would be awesome.

    That would be a great idea–too many (all, currently?) debates take place in a vacuum of information, where misstatements and deceptions have an effect before they can be debunked the next day (if they are).

  • I honestly think 13 town meetings isn’t enough. I would personally like both candidates to come to my hometown so I can hear their viewpoints unscripted and in person. And I’m sure most other Americans would like to witness such a debate as well. Town hall meetings are the best way to involve the public, in my opinion.

  • If McCain is afraid of debates, I suggest that Obama have a 2 hour press conference and debate McCain by running clips of his vascillating positions, responding to each one after it’s played. McCain wouldn’t even need to be present.

  • I’m kinda liking that idea of a panel of bloggers fact-checking and taking comments from people watching. Each side gets 3 fact checkers and whatever, one x-size flash drive of prepared research.

    They have a town hall meeting or a LD style no moderators doohickey for 45 minutes or an hour. Then there’s a break wherein the commentators blahblahblah for 10-15 minutes and then there’s another hour of questions about the earlier questions…this question never got an answer, what’s the answer? You’ve said xyz in the past (or video clip of it) what’s changed? You’ve said all these things (video clips of McCain) what’s today’s answer?

    One of these would likely be enough for both candidates, although everyone else might like more.

    Personally, I can barely stand to watch these things, the fewer the better.

  • Doubt that anyone is still reading this thread, but…

    Cryos: “I think that Obama would expose himself in a town hall meeting as an empty suit who can’t think on the fly.”

    ~~~~~~
    Obviously you’ve not attended an Obama town hall meeting. I did. He’s as far from an empty suit as one can get. He gave great and very detailed answers to thoughtful and difficult questions from the audience. He did the same the next day in another town (per report of a friend).

    Once again, the Rs accuse others of what they themselves are guilty… in this case, in Cryos’ sentence we should substitute “McCain” for “Obama”.

  • “Town Halls” and “Lincoln-Douglas” debates are so-ooo yesterday, people—they were for a period in history when the only way people could get the news first-hand was to have it happen in front of them. The only purpose they serve today is so that the individual pushing for them can stackthe deck and play the “gotcha” game, just as McPity-Party-For-Himself did with his “impartial” audience in NYC.

    Don’t any of you GOPers get it? Even FOX has turned on your candidate. Smith outed him on his little stunt right at the end of the broadcast, and he had to know that the Obama people would be able to use this as legitimate justification for not going ahead with the “13 Plan.”

    FOX short—We’re giving “street cred” to Obama’s refusal for town-halls….

  • I find it funny that a Senator wants to limit the townhalls and debates to under 3. Also to have a debate on the Fouth of JUly when no one will view it. Maybe a Senator who has only served 163 days in the Senate thinks he can escape scrutiny from the public by no one viewing the debate can help him . C’mon Barack take it to at least 10. You want to be Commnder in Chief on the fly with no experience at time when a military man is needed!!

  • I await, with unbridled anticipation, the moment when Greggie can justify the reasoning behind a C-in-C needing military experience when the foundation of the Republic is based on the military being subservient to the civilian authority….

  • The past nomination-campaign “debates” have demonstrated that we learn absolutely nothing from 30 second sound-bites especially when a question was intended to “trip up” candidates such as the “driver-license-for-illegals” trip by bully Russert for Clinton . Even today a majority of voters do not know what Obama and McCain really stand for. Already their campaigns for the presidency are mired in second-order issues at the fringes such as taxes. Neither has really addressed the issues of the national debt, budget deficits, and military spending which are far more significant. Why not? What are they waiting for? Yes, Obama has bemoaned the 12 billion per month spending in Iraq but while he was in the Senate he has repeatedly approved allocations for the occupation of that country. Crocodile tears, his. What we need instead are substantial single-issue-anchored speeches of the candidates in which they lay out their policies in all of their gory details. The other candidate must not be present to score with infantile rebuttals such as Bush III or Carter II. The press and the internet, including this site, can then dissect the speeches and keep the public debate alive. We do not need more useless debates. Adams and Jefferson did not need debates. We need more substance and less hot air.

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