On Iraq, giving credit where credit is due

In one of those issues Bill Kristol would almost certainly like to take back, the Weekly Standard ran mocked critics of the war in Iraq in 2003, right around the time American troops helped topple Baghdad’s Saddam statue. The Standard proclaimed, “The Cassandra Chronicles: The stupidity of the antiwar doomsayers.” Oops.

As Paul [tag]Krugman[/tag] noted today, “People forget the nature of Cassandra’s curse: although nobody would believe her, all her prophecies came true.”

And so it was with those who warned against invading Iraq. At best, they were ignored. A recent article in The Washington Post ruefully conceded that the paper’s account of the debate in the House of Representatives over the resolution authorizing the Iraq war — a resolution opposed by a majority of the Democrats — gave no coverage at all to those antiwar arguments that now seem prescient.

At worst, those who were skeptical about the case for war had their patriotism and/or their sanity questioned. The New Republic now says that it “deeply regrets its early support for this war.” Does it also deeply regret accusing those who opposed rushing into war of “abject pacifism?”

Now, only a few neocon dead-enders still believe that this war was anything but a vast exercise in folly. And those who braved political pressure and ridicule to oppose what Al Gore has rightly called “the worst strategic mistake in the history of the United States” deserve some credit.

Quite right. I don’t believe there should necessarily be a litmus test on whether a political leader was right or wrong about the war in 2002, but it’s worth taking a moment, now and then, to note some people who went against the prevailing winds and got the biggest question in years right.

Krugman offers what he calls a “partial honor roll” — but I’m afraid he ends by going a step too far.

Former President George H. W. Bush and Brent Scowcroft, explaining in 1998 why they didn’t go on to Baghdad in 1991: “Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land.”

Representative Ike Skelton, September 2002: “I have no doubt that our military would decisively defeat Iraq’s forces and remove Saddam. But like the proverbial dog chasing the car down the road, we must consider what we would do after we caught it.”

Al Gore, September 2002: “I am deeply concerned that the course of action that we are presently embarking upon with respect to Iraq has the potential to seriously damage our ability to win the war against terrorism and to weaken our ability to lead the world in this new century.”

Barack Obama, now a United States senator, September 2002: “I don’t oppose all wars. What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other armchair, weekend warriors in this administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.”

Representative John Spratt, October 2002: “The outcome after the conflict is actually going to be the hardest part, and it is far less certain.”

Representative Nancy Pelosi, now the House speaker-elect, October 2002: “When we go in, the occupation, which is now being called the liberation, could be interminable and the amount of money it costs could be unlimited.”

Senator Russ Feingold, October 2002: “I am increasingly troubled by the seemingly shifting justifications for an invasion at this time. … When the administration moves back and forth from one argument to another, I think it undercuts the credibility of the case and the belief in its urgency. I believe that this practice of shifting justifications has much to do with the troubling phenomenon of many Americans questioning the administration’s motives.”

Howard Dean, then a candidate for president and now the chairman of the Democratic National Committee, February 2003: “I firmly believe that the president is focusing our diplomats, our military, our intelligence agencies, and even our people on the wrong war, at the wrong time. … Iraq is a divided country, with Sunni, Shia and Kurdish factions that share both bitter rivalries and access to large quantities of arms.”

Krugman concludes that those who failed to raise important questions about the war, and those who acted as a cheerleader at the time, should no longer be taken seriously “when he or she talks about matters of national security.” Personally, I wouldn’t go nearly this far.

In 2002, the notion of a war in Iraq was wrong, but it wasn’t ridiculous. For that matter, there were plenty of credible people (including John Kerry, for example) who failed to foresee the president screwing things up this badly. That was a different mistake, but it hardly means we shouldn’t take these people seriously on matters of national security forever more.

It’s far different than, say, John McCain and Joe Lieberman, who not only failed in 2002 but who continue to lead the cheers for the president’s tragic policy to this day.

There were some smart people, with good intentions, who got this issue wrong four years ago. Those who got it right deserve kudos, but isn’t it a bit much to dismiss others who have since come to their senses?

in response to your question,

actually no

  • Al Gore is the true Cassandra of our age, when it comes to Geopolitics, Energy, the Environment, you name it. I know it’s time to get over the 2000 elections, but Goshdarn it, how different the state of our union would have been…

  • What’s Krugman’s point, you may ask?

    Krugman’s point is that the people who went along with the Iraq invasion should now admit that they were wrong (Are you listening, Hillary?). Even if you now realize that it was a personal mistake to trust the Bush administration to be truthful on matters of national security, admit that you were wrong. The bottom line is that our leaders should always be hesitant–even loathe–to go to war.

    Krugman went too far? No. A true leader admits a mistake and moves on—and forward.

  • Carpetbagger – Krugman wasn’t talking about the likes of Kerry – he was never a “cheerleader” and he did “raise important questions” in a great Senate speech before the vote.

    I think Krugman is talking more about the Kristols and the Krauthammers.

  • Re: Obama’s reference to “armchair, weekend warriors” such as Perle, Wolfowitz, and Kristol, I’m reminded of Artemus Ward’s quip:

    “I have given two cousins to war and I stand ready to sacrifice my wife’s brother.”

  • From the perspective of somebody raising these questions before the war started, anyone who truly believed that there was a way to “win” this conflict once we got started was delusional.

    Bush has botched this war so completely that we have ended up with what is arguably the worst possible outcome to this adventure. His incompetence, however, begs the question as to whether ANY CIC could have invaded Iraq and come out with a successful resolution.

    Short of a national draft so that we could have put 500,000 troops in place and the country on a real war footing, I don’t see how anyone could have won this war from our standpoint.

    Anyone who did think invading Iraq was a good idea, and of OVERRIDING urgency for the security of the nation, and who trusted GWB to get us in and out successfully showed an incredible lack of judgement, and any future judgements are highly suspect.

  • There are not enough hours in the day to go back and see who genuinely learned from their mistakes. There are plenty of great leaders who were not “wrong” on this issue. Tough as it may sound, one strike your out is not an inappropriate stance on matters of such importance. Intentions are irrelevant, if you were so goddamned wrong once, how the hell am I to know you won’t be wrong again? Decision-making is empirically measurable. They were wrong, people are dead.

    So. . . NO.

  • Those who supported the invasion, but warned about the need to establish order quickly after the invasion, the need for careful and intelligent planning of reconstruction, and the need to be prepared for a prolonged commitment of troops and aid, were probably wrong in retrospect. At this point it’s not at all clear that those things would have prevented an eventual civil war, but they would surely have improved the odds. It’s wrong to say they should not be taken seriously.

    Those who said that the invasion would be a “cakewalk”, that we could withdraw after a few weeks, that it was silly to think we needed 500,000 troops, that there was no need to think deeply about postwar reconstruction and nation-building should not be taken seriously.

  • as a follow-up, during the 2004 campaign, when Kerry was offerred a chance to explain what he would have done differently if he had known then what he knew now…

    he said what? oh yes, it was “nothing”. at that point, i knew it was over.

    those “wise men and women” who have had the opportunity to change the nations course or at least lay the issues in front of the public and have failed to do so should be dismissed and have forfeited their opportunity to lead.

    pardon me for the sarcasm and anger but i think it’s justified.

    it going to take a whole lot just to get back to zero.

  • Point taken, Dee…

    By the way, I found a section in the ISG report that I found suspicious:

    “The United States should provide technical assistance to the Ministry of Oil for enhancing
    maintenance, improving the payments process, managing cash flows, contracting and
    auditing, and updating professional training programs for management and technical
    personnel.”

    Hmm… I wonder what the Carlyle group thinks about this recommendation??

  • Krugman does make a good point about the nature of Cassandra’s curse.

    So many (Jim Webb, for instance) saw that we would ‘fail’ in this war. Many saw as we built up our totally inadequate forces that we would ‘fail’ in this war. And many realized as we stuck ourselves in Iraq with no immediate plans to get out that we had ‘failed’ at this war.

    And when you get right down to it, we’ve ‘failed’ in Iraq because we went in there based on reasons for war that were lies and worse than lies, reasons that got us stuck there.

    1) Regime change and justice against Saddam. Well, it was easy to end his regime, but we couldn’t get justice until we found him and we didn’t find him for months,
    2) WMD. They weren’t real, but we kept looking (tying up intelligence assets right at a time when the Sunni insurgency was organizing) and all we’ve ever found were technical plans in Arabic on how to set off a nuclear bomb which we so cleverly put on the Internet and 1980’s era mustard gas and sarin gas artillery shells. But we got stuck in Iraq because we were so busy looking for the Pony in the room with all the S**T.
    3) Ties to al-Qaeda. Again, not real, but since we’ve invaded we’ve drawn foreign terrorists like flies and they are now the leaders and teachers of a significant portion of the Iraqi Sunni Insurgency. Now we can’t leave because they would control a significant portion of the country.
    4) Democracy in the Region. How it is supposed to be moral to force democracy on the country of our enemy while ignoring the lack of democracy on our “friends and allies” I don’t know. But by proclaiming this goal, we’ve saddled ourselves with a series of incapable or simply powerless leaders in Iraq who force us to stay to keep their “democracically elected” asses in power.

    We’ve failed to give that country the security to be anything. Much of that failure arises from the fact that we did not demand that the Saddam-era regular army return to their units for retraining and re-education or face immediate execution.

    Iraq is like a Sudoku puzzle, and Rumsfeld wrote in ink, once he got one answer wrong (debaathification of the Army) he got the whole thing wrong and he can’t take it back.

  • I don’t blame those who originally went along with the war. Remember: people like Colin Powell were warning about Saddam’s dangers. Also, few people had sufficient access to the real intelligence that might have led them to question the war. Finally, the war in Afghanistan had been
    immensely successful when the question of war in Iraq arose. (At the time, we knew little about Tora Bora.)

    As long as they admit their mistakes and demonstrate they are willing to learn from them (i.e., restoring and supporting Constitutional liberties, branch powers and executive oversight), I think we should welcome everyone – Democrats, Republicans and Independents alike – who will return our country to the side of sanity.

  • “Those who got it right deserve kudos, but isn’t it a bit much to dismiss others who have since come to their senses? ”

    Doesn’t it depend when they came to their senses? If they came to their senses two years ago, its one thing. If last week, well, how much brilliance does it take to recognize the obvious when its bit off your butt and has started working on the rest of you?

  • The “war” in question was never, ever, more than another excercise in geopolitical thuggery. That much has been plain to all who pay attention, and cheerleading was limited to reflexive Jingoists and people vested in a generation of Republican dominance of American politics. No and No and Never Again.

  • Personally, I’m more concerned at this point about how the hell the US is getting out of Iraq.

  • I’m sorry. It is the responsibility of those in power to be skeptical before going to war. It’s WAR. They should have been doubly skeptical about going to war against a country that had not attacked us, and had no obvious plans to. But instead of demanding that the President make a twice-strong case, they accepted a less-than-robust one, with contentions that were already publicly disputed by reputable sources. And that’s just the decision to go to war at all, much less the decision to allow THIS President to go to war, or to do it before we finished in Afghanistan, home to those who HAD attacked us. Those who supported this war didn’t just get one judgment wrong, they blew a string of them. At the very least, their explanations of why they blew the calls, and what they have learned, need to be on record before we listen to them on this subject again.

    Krugman is right.

  • Sure, those who feared that the war against Iraq would be somewhat or much less easy to win than the “cakewalk” Ken Adelman predicted have been vindicated. That misses the point, however, that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and all their enablers commited a war crime when they sent US troops to invade a country that had not threatened the US. They started what they called “a pre-emptive war,” or “a war of choice,” which is just another way of saying “a war of aggression.”

    Chief U.S. American prosecutor at Nuremberg, U.S. Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson, declared that “launching a war of aggression is a crime that no political or economic situation can justify…” and “if certain acts in violation of treaties [e.g., the U.N. Charter] are crimes, they are crimes whether the United States does them or Germany does them…We are not prepared to lay down a rule of criminal conduct against others which we would not be willing to have invoked against us.”

    http://www.brianwillson.com/evrastrategies.html
    By flouting international law and allowing war criminals to continue in office, the US provides ready justification for governments of other states who wish to torture their citizens or foreign nationals, obtain and use nuclear weapons, invade their neighbors, or otherwise ignore their international treaty commitments. Gradual breakdown of international law can threaten US and world security as much as turning a totalitarian state into a failed state in the mideast.
    What US leaders have been statesmanlike enough to call a war crime a war crime?

  • No, in fact.
    Part of my criteria in judging leaders is that they have to be at least as smart as me. Studying Iraq’s industrial capacity from publicly available sources, I confidently concluded that Iraq had no WMD.

    Two days after the invasion I had speaking engagement and likened Saddam to Tito and Iraq to Yugoslavia, predicting civil war should the Iraqi regime be decapitated.

    People without a sense or knowledge of history shouldn’t be taken seriously in public discourse, and a litmus test of intelligence for elected office is not unreasonable.

  • “Krugman concludes that those who failed to raise important questions about the war, and those who acted as a cheerleader at the time, should no longer be taken seriously “when he or she talks about matters of national security. Personally, I wouldn’t go nearly this far.”
    Strictly speaking, Krugman didn’t go that far either. He concluded that we should ask such people why they should be taken seriously; this at least leaves open the possibility that if they come up with a satisfactory answer — which would necessarily include a recognition that they blew it — they could still be taken seriously.
    My larger point is an insistence on accuracy: one of the right’s favorite tactics is to distort someone’s views, and then ridicule them for it. Your distortion is nowhere near that magnitude, but still, nuance is an important part of what gets lost in most debates with the right. Let’s not start down that road ourselves. Besides, if you’re going to quote most of the article, you might as well get the conclusion right also.

  • Actually Kerry did forsee many of the ways in which Bush screwed things up. This is seen in his Senate floor statement at the time of the IWR vote, his op-eds in The New York Times and Foreign Affairs at the time, and his Georgetown Speech where he called on Bush not to rush to war.

    The problem with using the IWR vote as a litmus test is that it was not a clear cut vote for or against war. While Kerry has admitted he made a mistake voting yes, it is clear from his statements at the time that he never intended his vote to provide authorization for Bush to go to war as he did. He saw it as a vote to authorize war only as a last resort if we were truely proven to be threatened by WMD. Kerry also warned that such evidence had not been provided and that he would oppose Bush if he went to war except as a last resort.

  • Dee,

    “as a follow-up, during the 2004 campaign, when Kerry was offerred a chance to explain what he would have done differently if he had known then what he knew now…

    he said what? oh yes, it was “nothing”. at that point, i knew it was over.”

    Except that is a misquotation of what Kerry said. Kerry said he would have still voted for the authorization, but would have used the authorization differently. He spoke out several times as to how he would have used th authorization to seek a diplomatic settlement and not to go to war.

    While at that point Kerry still said he would have voted for the authroization, after the Downing Street Memos proved that Bush was lying about his plans to seek a diplomatic settlment, Kerry admitted he was wrong to trust Bush with the authorization.

  • I only remember Paul Wellstone and possibly Russ Feingold being openly against the war and the congressional authorization.

  • “In 2002, the notion of a war in Iraq was wrong, but it wasn’t ridiculous.” Mr. CB

    I’m sorry Mr. CB, but I believe the notion of war in Iraq was worse than ridiculous. It was nefarious, it was every kind of dishonest, it was pre-planned opportunism executed with baseball bats swung by schemers wearing blindfolds with Iraq as a pinata filled with oil.

    I defer to Volnay at 14:

    The “war” in question was never, ever, more than another excercise in geopolitical thuggery. That much has been plain to all who pay attention, and cheerleading was limited to reflexive Jingoists and people vested in a generation of Republican dominance of American politics. No and No and Never Again.

    Comment by Volney

    A-f’n-men.

  • The latest AP-Ipsos poll, taken as a bipartisan commission was releasing its recommendations for a new course in Iraq, found that just 27 percent of Americans approved of Bush’s handling of Iraq, down from his previous low of 31 percent in November.

    Who are these people and do they have access to the news? Talk about hardcore…..

  • I agree with Dee. No.

    It really doesn’t matter anymore that TNR admits it was wrong, anymore than any other criminal because it has happened and it has gone almost as exactly according to us “Cassandra” types predicted.

    This isn’t someone fucking up over trivia or semantics such as a policy disagreement. They fucked up in the most imporant matter of all, life and death, and they chose awfully. Not only did they chose wrong, but they smeared all good council who told them it was a bad choice.

    One of them will probably make the point that “they didn’t know.” Doesn’t wash with me. If the decision to go to war was based on a split second decision then I’d probably give this scum the benefit of the doubt, but the run up to war was some 15 goddamned MONTHS! This is the equivalent of spending 15 minutes making one move, being told by a grandmaster that making the move they wanted would create checkmate and then still doing it!

    Personally, I can’t forgive this waste of lives and opportunities because none of the people (on all sides) had to die. The cheerleaders don’t get absolution of their guilt, stupidity and arrogance because they remained defiant till it was beyond obvious that OIF was a total clusterfuck. No 50 Hail Marys and Our Fathers for them. All these MSM types get from me is my own contempt and anger. If there were such things as the Furies then I would wish them upon all of the MSM’s warcheerleader groupies.

    About the only decent thing to come out of this war did was expose the vast majority of the MSM as the Yes Persons they are. And what a fucking price had to be paid just to see that!

  • I’m always open to reassessment. This a political forum, after all, not church or a class in theology. And even if it were religion rather than politics, there’s at least the possibility of forgiveness and redemption, the “lost sheep” and all that.

    CB is correct about this: McCain and Lieberman (the weasel and the diehard) are guilty of the unforgivable sin of continuing support for Bush’ war, even at this late date. Unlike the official church’s take on unforgiveability, these guys can’t be accused of “hardness of heart”; being first and foremost poll-driven politicians, they have no heart, only naked ambition and self-adulation.

    But please don’t take us back to the dark days of the early ’70s in the Democratic Party, when being “right(eous)” was more important than winning elections or passing good laws.

  • Those who supported the war at the beginning, but who realized their mistake early on and fully admitted it, can be forgiven.

    Those who demonized the dissenters cannot. Ever.

  • I second Antonious @ #18 but I based it on the capabilities of U.S. and other intelligence agencies. If Hussein had a functioning WMD program we would know. We would have known for a very long time. I was surprised (and disgusted) that so many people bought that [t]reason so readily and I’m not inclined to feel charitable towards people who are now saying “Ooops, my bad.” Especially since I suspect they’re only expressing remorse because the “cakewalk” has turned into a long slog through Hell. (Note to legislators and future members of the military: Read a little history with an eye towards what happens when someone says “Relax, it’ll be a cinch,” and then bludgeon the next jackass who says it.)

    If we’d gone in, taken Hussein, found nary a WMD and gotten right out, there wouldn’t be a chorus of mea culpa and we’d probably be in Iraq or North Korea. It has taken several years and countless deaths and maimings for people to “get” it and that’s not acceptable from anyone, much less people tasked with running the damn country.

  • I don’t know if Krugman wants to keep all the cheerleaders out of the spotlight forevermore. I doubt he means that. But I agree with CB, and I would not automatically shut out the opinions of the people who were for the war (*), but for Christ sake, why the HELL can’t the media put more people on the air who were against the war before it was popular to be against it?

    Why?

    We’ve still got entire panels of pundits blathering away, ALL of whom were wrong about Iraq. Where are the panels made up entirely of people who warned the American people about the nightmare Bush was about to unleash?

    Where?

    The media likes war, so putting these people up front would be bad for business I guess.

    (*) The exceptions would be all neocons like Perle and Kristol and Rumsfeld who should be put on display in a cage in downtown Baghdad and pelted with rotten fruit for a couple of years.

  • “Those who demonized the dissenters cannot. Ever.” – PeterG

    Bravo! Amen brother!

    Leaves LIEberman out, doesn’t it. Of course we all know he’s going to Hell anyway 😉

    If there has been anything that has sicken me it’s been Joe LIEberman’s “well I’ll know when we can leave Iraq but you can’t talk about it because it emboldens terrorists and you’re just a traitor for making me squirm anyway.” What a creep!

  • If the question is whether someone who approved of the war originally should be trusted as a potential president themself the answer is definitely “no”.

    There was something so sleazy about Bush and Cheney from day one that anyone who bought their BS has questionable judgment.

    It doesn’t have to do with whether they knew that the intelligence was inaccurate or not. You have to consider the source. This is why they spent so much time trying to persuade Powell . . . they knew their credibility was marginal at best and they were going to have to pull off a big fat lie.

    Having Powell pitch it was the only way to make it fly (but it took a LOT of persuasion/lying to get Powell to do it) and now he kicks himself everyday for being so gullible when his gut told him it was wrong.

    Anybody whose gut wasn’t paying attention to the sleaze/hidden agenda factor has judgment problems and shouldn’t be trusted to run the country.
    Obviously gut can be wrong eg Bush seeing into Putin’s soul . . .That’s one of many reasons why he shouldn’t be president and our gut should tell us that or we recognize that we’re gullible and lack good judgment.

  • Did Clark make the list? Because I know that he spoke out in congressional testimony against the war at least a month before Obama’s words and has been cited by some senators as the reason that they voted against it.

    But ignoring Clark has been a characteristic of the mainstream media for some time….

  • “There were some smart people, with good intentions, who got this issue wrong four years ago.” — CB

    I’d respectfully disagree. They may have been smart, but they weren’t operating at full intellectual capacity, or they lacked the courage to stand up and be labeled unpatriotic for dissenting. Even before the invasion, many of us knew that deposing Sadaam had nothing to do with the so called “war on terror,” and was a distraction. Anyone who bothered to look into Iraqi culture and history, and watched Yugoslavia self destruct, should have been able to predict that Bush/Rumsfeld were not prepared for what they were getting into. The UN inspectors said there were no WMD; when the US insisted there were, the UN asked for the evidence but Bush refused. Iraq was strangled economically and we had no-fly zones locking down 2/3 of the country. Bush/Cheney/Rice attempts to exploit fear after 9/11 was transparent even then — if only because of the way they treated anyone who opposed them. Finally, it should have been obvious from a purely numerical standpoint that the numbers Bush II was proposing for an Iraq invasion were woefully inadequate given that Bush I didn’t go into Baghdad with many times more. All this was known before we went to war. Our leaders, the press, and a whole lot of Americans simply gave into their fears.

  • For what it’s worth, Krugman doesn’t go nearly as far as Glenn Greenwald, who uses the absence of early war opponents in the Baker-Hamilton group to discredit their recommendations. I can’t say I agree with Greenwald, but he makes a reasoned argument that without early opponents of the war, that point of view was not considered, and the initial presuppositions of the invasion suppporters have not been challenged.

  • Remember republicans bashed Clinton for the 1999 Kosovo War. A war that is still going on today. Stupid George Bush Jr. the other day said Iraq is the first war of the 21st centurty. He’s a damn liar! Afghanistan started before Iraq. Kosovo is still considered a War. Kosovo is the first war of the 21st centurty. Bush is so full of lies it’s sickening. Not to mention republicans complained that we spend 2 billion a year on Kosovo. They called 10 billion spent on the Yugoslavian Wars “expensive”. They said Kosovo is going to be like vietnam. I read an article by some republicans complaining that 2 soldiers died in Kosovo and the media diden’t pick it up. Comparing Clinton’s lies to Bush’s lies is like comparing an elephant to a chevy engine! Republicans and anyone who compares Clinton’s lies to Bush’s lies in a lunatic! The economy isn’t so great either. Having a quantity of jobs doesen’t mean the quality of jobs is great. Republicans love slave labor.

  • But please don’t take us back to the dark days of the early ’70s in the Democratic Party, when being “right(eous)” was more important than winning elections or passing good laws.

    Agreed. Thanks for articulating an important history lesson, Ed. Hopefully it will not fall on deaf ears.

    As for the specific question, Mr. Carpetbagger poses…to outright dismiss anyone who voted for the war resolution but has since questioned the war and the resulting occupation does seem to go too far. However, for those such as Lieberman and McCain (and Reyes?!) who argue for more troops or those who questioned the patriotism of those who challenged the war and/or its prosecution, I agree, there can be no tolerance.

    Questioning authority is the mark of a true patriot. I think Obama said it best: “I don’t oppose all wars. What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war.” To deny the right to question our authorities (yes, I’m talking to you Lieberman), is truly unpatriotic.

  • I have to agree with Krugman, as well, if only because I believe that a lot of the neocons and White House/Congressional/media enablers who are now saying they were wrong are doing so only in an attempt to avoid greater blame and possible punishment by ‘fessing up.

    In other words, they’re still stupid and haven’t changed their core beliefs at all. They just want to defuse the lynch mobs they know are heading in their direction with a cynical and well-timed mea culpa.

    So they really should be ignored for all time to come because if they ever regain influence they’ll just go back to the same stupid thinking they had before. For them, nothing ever really changes as far as their internal processes are concerned.

  • I would add a caveat — those politicians who voted for the war “for political purposes” should never be taken seriously again on national security issues. And this in fact includes all those democratic senators who had presidential ambitions including Kerry and Clinton who were afraid of being labeled as “McGovern democrats”.

    Any of those senators who had seriously listened to Russ Feingold’s speech justifying his vote against the war resolution and then voted for the resolution really errored on the wrong side of reason.

    There will be no reconciliation or achievement of national unity in this huge screwup resulting from the failure of Congress to contain Bush. If you want to make excuses for this bullshit, don’t depend on my taking your argument seriously and don’t expect me to buy into the muddle. We are pissed!

  • I for one am not going to forgive or forget any of those otherwise-unemployable assholes. Losing work because of being identified as “antiwar”, being vilified across the internet by these drooling morons. Hell no! I intend to kick their asses out their mouths. Personally.

  • “In 2002, the notion of a war in Iraq was wrong, but it wasn’t ridiculous.” Mr. CB

    Sorry CB – you and I are friends, but on this one you are WRONG. Anyone who could touch their forefinger to their nose on consecutive tries could see this was ridiculous from the get-go.

  • “There were some smart people, with good intentions, who got this issue wrong four years ago. Those who got it right deserve kudos, but isn’t it a bit much to dismiss others who have since come to their senses?”

    Four years ago, millions of Americans and millions of others all over the world, very few with foreign policy “experience,” knew what a terrible, bloody mistake prosecuting war in Iraq would be. We protested and were ignored, just like those you’ve named above. We didn’t know more than anyone else — we simply knew enough about the Middle East and about Iraq to know that attacking it would be a grave mistake and open a Pandora’s Box of horrors. That Bush and Blair could not give us conclusive, solid evidence for the need for such a war didn’t help; nor did their shifting reasons for prosecuting it. Finally, it was clear even before it started that they had no idea what they were going to do afterwards in Iraq. There was no plan.

    If we can figured it out, then smart people like Hillary Clinton and John Kerry should be able to, as well. That they voted blindly and without forcing the questions to be answered negates them as trustworthy leaders, in my book. I voted for Kerry in 2004, but I did it angrily, holding my nose. It was a vote of desperation against George W. Bush.

    If one of these wishy-washy, untrustworthy Democrats win the nomination again, I’ll vote for him or her. But I won’t be proud of it. I’d much rather see someone who voted their conscience and the heart when it came to giving Bush the power to wage war be nominated — and I’d be proud to vote for that person, because I know they have integrity, honesty and honor.

  • Those who got it right from the start deserve much, much more than simple kudos and a pat on the back. They ought to be replacing the policitians and pundits who were so tragically wrong about Iraq.

    A quote from Barack Obama that I read here has stuck with me strongly. To paraphrase, a leader needs two qualities above all else: judgement and vision. Everything else is secondary.

    Those who thought that attacking Iraq was a good idea showed neither. Those who have been right about everything have shown the judgement that is sorely needed today. Those who supported the war and have since repudiated it, showed some judgement by finally recognizing its folly, in inverse proportion to the length of time it took them to realize it. But those who were right about the war from the start showed the most judgement.

    And as such those who opposed the war from the start are best qualified to lead this country.

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