One can deride Huckabee without ‘scorning people for their faith’

In his NYT column today, Nicholas Kristof returns to a subject he’s covered before: the unwarranted deriding of evangelicals.

At a New York or Los Angeles cocktail party, few would dare make a pejorative comment about Barack Obama’s race or Hillary Clinton’s sex. Yet it would be easy to get away with deriding Mike Huckabee’s religious faith.

Liberals believe deeply in tolerance and over the last century have led the battles against prejudices of all kinds, but we have a blind spot about Christian evangelicals. They constitute one of the few minorities that, on the American coasts or university campuses, it remains fashionable to mock.

Scorning people for their faith is intrinsically repugnant, and in this case it also betrays a profound misunderstanding of how far evangelicals have moved over the last decade.

I can appreciate Kristof’s point, but this is unpersuasive. First, the Huckabee comparison is flawed. Judging Clinton on her gender is ridiculous. Judging Obama on race and ethnicity is offensive. But when Kristof hears people disparaging Huckabee at cocktail parties, I suspect he’s hearing people mocking Huckabee’s ideas — which deserve to be fair game in the midst of a presidential campaign.

After all, the former Arkansas governor has been pretty far out there on the fringe. He rejects modern biology. He thinks wives should submit graciously to their husbands. He’s equated homosexuality with bestiality. He’s publicly endorsed “quarantining” AIDS patients; he’s boasted that God is directly helping his presidential campaign; and he’s said that if a man and a woman live together outside of marriage, they’re engaging in a “demeaning … alternate lifestyle.”

And if the intelligentsia ridicule these beliefs, they’re guilty of “intolerance” and “scorn” for the faithful? It’s the moral equivalent of racism and misogyny? I don’t think so.

Ultimately, my biggest beef with Kristof’s perspective is that he’s buying into (and further perpetuating) a myth the left has been working to debunk: that somehow liberals and Democrats revel in their mockery of Christians.

This is utter nonsense, and it’s noticeable that Kristof doesn’t offer any specific examples, relying on anecdotes and supposition. When Kristof wrote a similar column four years ago, arguing that the left shows “bigotry toward people based on their faith,” his most specific example was a seven-year-old quote from Ted Turner — as if Turner were a prominent voice in contemporary progressive politics. Today, Kristof dispenses with examples altogether, basing his argument on what he imagines people in LA and NYC are saying at cocktail parties.

Just to set the record straight, the premise is mistaken. Howard Dean and the DNC are conducting considerable outreach to the evangelical community. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama make no secret of their Christian faith, and Obama, in particular, has made frequent appearances before evangelical audiences.

To be fair, Kristof’s broader point is that Christian evangelicals, in general, are not where they once were. The crazed and unhinged beliefs of radical televangelists like Pat Robertson are no longer quite as dominant as they once were, and some rank-and-file evangelicals now consider issues like poverty and global warming to be moral imperatives. Kristof argues that that the left should consider this shift an opportunity for outreach.

But therein lies the point: progressives have already noticed the shift and began the outreach years ago. The problem isn’t that liberals “scorn people for their faith”; it’s that Nick Kristof hasn’t noticed how wrong this argument is.

For starters, let’s stop calling these people “Christians” with a capital “C”, thus buying into their propaganda that they are the “only true Christians.”

In fact, they are Fundamentalists. Putting the word “Fundamentalist” in front of “Christian,” “Moslem,” “Jew,” or “Hindu” turns those four great nouns into pronouns that merely descrive the shade of brown the shit is.

Does anyone have any problem saying that the fundamentalists of these other religions are not representative of the truth of that religion? So what’s the problem with calling out a bunch of inbred snakehandlers with sawdust in their hair as being the bunch of ignoramuses they are? It isn’t a “put down” to describe facts.

These people have less to do with being “Christian” than does my cat.

  • Smackdown! I love it.
    But I still think Huckleberry seems like a nice guy. What can I say? I’m a sucker for “aw shucks.” And after watching the reptilian Giuliani for the past year, just about anybody can seem like a nice guy.

  • It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

    The televangelists kind of skip that one.

    For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in,

    Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

    Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? Or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

    When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? Or naked, and clothed thee?

    Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

    And the king shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, in as much as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

    So much for the Republican party.

  • Ultimately, my biggest beef with Kristof’s perspective is that he’s buying into (and further perpetuating) a myth the left has been working to debunk: that somehow liberals and Democrats revel in their mockery of Christians.

    This is utter nonsense,

    —————

    So what’s the problem with calling out a bunch of inbred snakehandlers with sawdust in their hair as being the bunch of ignoramuses they are?

    —————

    I guess you can say that Mr. Cleaver is an exception to the rule, but the first comment on you blog seemed to prove Mr. Kristof’s point.

    FWIW, being on a college campus, I agree that (at least on my specific liberal college campus) Religion and Religiosity is mocked and looked down upon, and positive aspects of it are ignored.

  • Let’s be honest here. Some evangelicals mock, scorn and condemn people who don’t share their beliefs, threaten them with hellfire and, if they could get away with it, would preclude those of us who are secular or atheist from holding any sort of public office or, indeed, any viable role in society at large. We’ve been accused of causing the terror attacks on Sept. 11 because our lifestyles pissed off the evangelicals’ all-loving, all-forgiving god. I’m supposed to ignore that? Kristoff needs to grow up.

    You’ll excuse me, but while I can accept that evangelicals have a right to their beliefs, I think they should return the favor. Until they do, they’ll get back the scorn they give.

  • Kristof used to be one of the most offensive NYT’s columnists with his broder strawmen, but has taken a back seat for a while. I guess he was just saving it for the campaign when it really mattered.

    Krugman was a happy accident. Aside from him, they really are the worst editorial board out there. Without them, the wack-os at the WSJ would just be preaching to the choir.

  • Is our tendency to judge, to pronounce harsh judgments, to condemn anyone who may have a divergent opinion to hell, is this tendency genetic or socially produced?

  • I have not yet found an individual of another race who sought to convert me to his race, nor a woman who believed that I should biologically transform myself into a female. However, I have found upon this planet; withinin this nation; even sharing the same neighborhood where I and my family live, those who feel they hold a birthright of theological superiority over my family—regardless of my family’s guaranteed right to religious freedom—that gives them the right to convert us to their religion.

    That fact alone, without even contemplating any other argument, proves Kristof a witless fool….

  • Well, while Kristof’s out-of-touch column might have resonated and had a negative effect on a campaign with less compelling candidates, the good news here is, we have candidates (specifically Obama, although Hillary is not terrible at it, either) who can speak to the religious community without alienating its members or sounding clumsy or out of place. John Kerry never sounded comfortable when he talked about faith– even though he is a practicing Catholic, he comes from a cultural background in which over displays of religiosity are not emphasized, therefore, he had difficulty with that aspect of campaigning.

    Kristof’s column just reinforces the fact that the mainstream media lives in its own world, with little to no capacity, let alone insight, to truly observe what’s happening on the ground. We have candidates who are visibly motivating people to look to the example of Martin Luther King Jr., and advance progressive ideals whose roots can be found in religion.

  • I once worked with a fundie. He explained to me that if I hadn’t accepted Jesus as my personal savior I would burn in Hell. I asked him if that applied to everyone. He said that it did.

    I asked him if if applied to babies who die before they can even speak. “Yes.”
    I asked him if it applied to those who lived and died before Jesus was born. “Yes”
    -No matter how good they were? “Yes.”
    Ghandi? “Yes”
    Buddha? “Yes”
    etc.

    I decided that Hell might be hot but that I’d meet a better class of people there.

  • I think an important part of Steve’s point that’s being missed here in the comments is that one’s religion or lack thereof is a matter of choice. When Huck talks he’s sharing his ideas of what it means. For me it’s rubbish…. Hillary was born female – no choice involved there. Barack was born African American. Obviously he didn’t choose his ethnicity. It’s perfectly reasonable to question a candidate’s ideas. It is not to question an innate characteristic. Obama/Edwards 2008!!! Hillary or Russ Feingold becomes Attorney General!

  • This is a very complex subject. All of us hold certain beliefs, political, religious, social, philosophical, moral, etc. etc. And we freely criticize others who hold different beliefs, and try to persuade them that our views are the correct ones. That seems to be human nature.

    But religious beliefs are treated differently. People seem to think they are special, protected from ordinary criticism, because they are somehow “holy.” Beyond reproach. And I think that’s what all these claims of religious persecution are about. Somehow, people don’t think their own religious beliefs are fair game for others to attack.

    We call neocons barbaric for their aggressive, warmongering foreign policy, and that’s fair game. And they call us traitorous, wimpy cowards. Still fair game. But if we call fundamentalists silly for believing in creationism, that’s, well, blasphemous, religious bigotry and persecution, below the belt, unfair, cruel and hateful, etc.

    I think we should start out by putting religion on the same plain as any other belief. No special treatment. See where that leads. It’s hard to do, I know.

    There’s another aspect, too. There’s a big difference between criticizing a particular belief, and attacking the people who hold that belief. We do too much of the latter. Notice how I framed some of the paragraphs above in terms of criticizing the people, rather than their beliefs. It’s another habit that’s difficult to change.

  • It depends on what a person’s faith contains whether they deserve scorn or not. Huckabee’s faith not only contains very stupid ideas, it contains the seeds of a theocracy. He doesn’t even embrace the best of his religion, he holds to the worst aspects of it.

  • One of the downsides to creating a Christian (or any other religiious) political bloc is that the religion itself gets replaced by the political messages. Thus, Evangelicals are associated with intolerance, a dumb war, regressive tax policies, and many layers of hypocrisy. If I were a fundamentalist, the first thing I would do is to refuse to identify myself as such in any political poll.

    Here I am reminded of Don Quixote, where one character says, “the devil lies behind the cross.” The priest responds, “then burn it.” I think some of us would be well cautioned to make a more moderate response.

  • Clinton doesn’t demand that all citizens carry purses and smell good. Obama doesn’t insist we all buy and drive cool cars. But Huckabee insists that we change our Constitution to reflect his beliefs: (that’s the difference)

    First Read
    Posted: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 11:19 AM by Domenico Montanaro
    Filed Under: 2008, Huckabee

    From NBC/NJ’s Adam Aigner-Treworgy
    WARREN, Mich. — Huckabee’s closing argument to voters here this evening featured a few new stories and two prolonged sections on illegal immigration and Christian values.

    These two topics usually feature prominently in Huckabee’s stump speech, but last night he got specific, promising to build a border fence within 18 months if elected and elaborating on his belief that the constitution needs to be amended.

    “[Some of my opponents] do not want to change the Constitution, but I believe it’s a lot easier to change the constitution than it would be to change the word of the living God, and that’s what we need to do is to amend the Constitution so it’s in God’s standards rather than try to change God’s standards,” Huckabee said, referring to the need for a constitutional human life amendment and an amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman.

  • I think an important part of Steve’s point that’s being missed here in the comments is that one’s religion or lack thereof is a matter of choice. — YesWeCanFan

    This. It’s also the same reason we can ridicule Huckabee for being a creationist — it’s a belief of his that shows he’s missing a few marbles.

    People seem to think they are special, protected from ordinary criticism, because they are somehow “holy.” Beyond reproach. — hark

    This too. Kristof seems to think that religion can’t be questioned any more than physical traits can, he needs to be called out on such nonsense.

  • I don’t think Kristof knows what he’s talking about. I may not share the beliefs of a particular religious group, but I respect a person’s right to believe as he or she chooses, and expect the same in return. This mutual respect works – for me – up to the point where a person or group of people decide that it is not enough to be free to believe as one chooses, and embark on a campaign to legislate their beliefs so that all must adhere to the tenets of that particular brand of faith.

    Yeah, I do happen to think it’s ridiculous not to believe in evolution or modern biology, and it’s insulting to think that I should be submissive to my husband, – and that’s why I could never be a Huckabee-style fundamentalist. Is it mocking fundamentalist belief by the very fact of choosing not to be part of it? Apparently, it is in Kristof’s world.

    I think this mockery thing works both ways – that people like Hucakbee think it is their right to impose their beliefs on me pretty much makes a mockery of what I believe, doesn’t it?

  • Theo-fascism will come to America wrapped in an aw shucks and a chuckle. Fundie-mentals of all religions will kill each other over specifics but generally they are all alike. Someday I hope we can carry the coffin of fundamentalism through the streets with throngs of atheists ululating its demise.

  • Well, I think a lot of folks are turned off by the rhetoric more than the ideas. I don’t agree with Huck about changing the constitution, I believe in a woman’s right to choose not to have an abortion, and I think civil unions for gays are hunky dory.

    Huck does not. And many other people, even those who are NOT religious, feel as Huck does BUT they use different words to express it. That speech Huck gave was to very religious people who are used to a certain way of speaking which frankly, and unfairly in my estimation, turn off other people.

    And Huck has explained very well that he wasn’t there ‘at creation’ so he doesn’t know how it all went down. That does not mean he doesn’t believe in science.

    As I said, I think it’s the rhetoric used to express the ideas that turns people off more than the ideas themselves. We can argue the ideas. We shouldn’t be turned off by the rhetoric and biblical references.

  • Some peoples’ “faith” is just another name for insanity and charlatanry. Claiming it is out of bounds to criticism just because they use the word Jeebus is despicable. From today’s paper:

    Odessa suspect says wife died during exorcism
    Husband, who’s jailed on a murder charge, says the devil entered his body and caused the woman’s death, authorities say

    It’s way past time to stop moddlycoddling these dangerous kooks. Derision is the least they deserve.

  • There is a Huckster Born Every Minute

    To paraphrase the Jews, this is “bad for the evangelicals.”

    As far as I can tell, it’s mostly secular liberals swooning over Huckabee. Liberals adore Huckabee because he fits their image of what an evangelical should be: fat, stupid and easily led.

    Hey! How about adults privately smoking cigarettes in their homes? Huckabee wants a federal law banning smoking IN YOUR OWN HOME!

    Huckabee claims he opposes gay marriage and says Scalia is his favorite justice, but The Huckster supports a Supreme Court decision denounced by Scalia for paving the way to a “constitutional right” to gay marriage. I guess The Huckster is one of those pro-sodomy, pro-gay marriage, pro-evolution evangelical Christians.

    No wonder Huckabee is the evangelical liberals like.

    http://www.hebookservice.com/products/BookPage.asp?prod_cd=c6918

    Huckster’s been cavorting with the legacy of the White Citizens’ Council — the Council of Conservative Citizens, a group listed as a white supremacist organization by the Southern Poverty Law Center. That’s why the South thinks Huckster is the best candidate if Obama is nominated. Rumours are that McCain will pick The Huckster for VP.

    “In the 1930s, the socialist intellectual H.G. Wells called for the creation of a “liberal fascism,” which he envisioned as a totalitarian state governed by an oligarchy of benevolent experts. In Liberal Fascism, Jonah Goldberg brilliantly traces the intellectual roots of fascism to their surprising source, showing not only that its motivating ideas derive from the left but that the liberal fascist impulse is alive and well among contemporary progressives-and is even a temptation for compassionate conservatives.”

    “With someone like Huckabee; with someone who actually takes compassionate conservatism seriously, you’ve got this vision that the government can do anything it sets its mind to, and that the measure of good public policy is how much you care. That, to me, is a very scary turn of events in American politics.”

    http://richmedia.pajamasmedia.com/audio/politicscentral/glenn_helen_show/20071227-Goldberg.mp3
    http://caster.wgnradio.com/podcasts/x720full-012-080128.mp3

  • Now we can’t criticize people for their lifestyle choices? We aren’t allowed to criticize scientology, astrology, satan-worship, drug addiction, wife beating, overeating, exercise addiction, or murderous martyrdom? It’s funny; I don’t think all fundamentalists share Kristof’s definition of “repugnant”.

    Race is not a matter of preference. Neither is sex. Lifestyle choices are. If we cannot criticize these things, what can we criticize about people? I guess Kristof is saying, “anything goes”, as long as the perpetrator can express a conviction about it.

  • Read Digby’s take on Kristof’s absurd column. Priceless! She says it exactly like it is.

  • The idea of separation of church and state was first proposed and championed by Baptists. It is still a central baptist doctrine. Huckabee doesn’t believe in a theocracy and these mindless arguments putting forth that he does don’t really move the discussion forward. He has a worldview that is based on a well developed philosophy of life which has provided a wise foundation for America for the past two hundred years. Although expressed in different ways, a theocentric world view is the moral imperative behind the bill of rights. No creator, no inalienable rights. Those loony founding fathers were creationists, too. Let’s all spit on them a while for their foolishness. Robertson and Falwell were poor spokesmen for Christianity, but then again, the unibomber and Stalin weren’t the best banner carriers for atheism.

    In the end it’s not really about what you think about God, it’s about the ideas and policies. Many of Huckabee’s ideas show a maturity and thoughtfulness that we haven’t always seen among some notable evangelicals in the past. If his belief in a Creator led him to these good conclusions, then great. We should hope for such ideas in the future and cease to attack people simply because they believe there is a god, and then want to infer that this belief has ramifications for the way they vote and live their lives.

    A classic Christian philosophy begins with the idea, that all truth is God’s truth. If a policy or idea is true, and best for the nation and world, then people of sincere faith should be able to join us in fighting for it.

    If we don’t push them away by bashing their belief system like a bunch of uniformed bigots.

  • On most Saturdays in the downtown seattle area you will find “Christians standing at two to four corners of an intersection, literally on boxes, screaming at passers by that if they don’t repent they are going to hell. These guys are simply an American version of the Taliban.

    Huckabee recently made a statement to the effect that eh wants to replace the constitution with God’s word. This is simply an American Christian version of Sharia law that he is calling for. Huckabee and these Christian extremists, like the Jewish religious extremists, and Muslim extremists are entitled to their religion. And I am entitled to live my life outside of their influence.

  • “I agree that (at least on my specific liberal college campus) Religion and Religiosity is mocked and looked down upon, and positive aspects of it are ignored.”

    Personally, I have my doubts as to whether this is a phenomenon of the majority of liberal students, but be that as it may, my thoughts at times like this go Buddhists, Hindus, Wiccans and, of course, Muslims, whose religions and religiosity are not only berated by Christians but scorned as being unfit for salvation. I would feel much better about the “positive aspects” of Christianity if more people who profess to follow the teachings of Jesus actually did so.

    We are right to scorn Huckabee and all the rest of the retrograde religious totalitarians who want to take us back to the Middle Ages with their ludicrous notions of faith-based science, as if that’s anything but an oxymoron. Any person who, in 2008, a century and a half after “Origin of Species” and two centuries after the founding of geology, can with a straight face declaim the nonsense that passes for Christian “science” should be hounded from the public stage in this country that gave us Thomas Jefferson as one of our founders. Those ideas are worse than idiotic; they are pernicious.

    I would as soon let Charlie Manson lecture me about family values as I would let Mike Huckabee tell me about Constitutional governance. As Republicans generally, our so-called “Christians”–and they know who they are–are unfit to lead us. They are not small-d democrats, and that alone disqualifies them from consideration. Our young student friend needs to think about how the tenets of his/her chosen faith fit the governance of our pluralistic society, wherein a lot of people do not subscribe his/her sky-god morality.

  • I think it’s time to dust this one off:
    KRISTOF RESPONDS

    I have been reading a large number of negative comments about my editorials on liberal blogs lately, and I must admit, I’m a bit baffled by all the anger. I’ve always done my best to be fair – I go out of my way to paint both sides as equally culpable, even when one is clearly to blame. I struggle to be objective – I’ll criticize the Democratic Party for even the slightest infraction. I’m tolerant – I never criticize the Republicans for doing the same.
    So I have come to the conclusion that all this animosity must be the result of some misunderstanding between us, so I’ve decided to take the opportunity to explain myself. If there’s one thing I’ve learned from all my travels through the war torn countries of Africa, it is that there is no division so great that it cannot be healed by polite, friendly dialogue.

    memekiller’s diary :: ::

    For instance, just the other day I had a lovely dinner with Ann Coulter, who a good many of you on the left have said some nasty things about. But instead of getting angry, I complimented her, and told her I was a big fan of her columns. And you know what she said? She said she loved my columns, too! “Who needs Safire, when we have you there to put the liberals back in their place whenever their spines begin to stiffen,” she said.
    Then I said, “Look, Ann, I don’t know if you realize this or not, but some of the things you say, well, I don’t think you’d be saying them if you realized how they make me feel. For instance, when you said your only regret with Timothy McVeigh was that he did not go to the New York Times building… well I work at the Times, and that kind of hurt. It hurt me, Ann, and I was wondering if you could turn it down a notch?”

    You know what she said? She said, “I can’t, Nick. That’s what my readers expect.” You see, it’s not Ann at all! Sure, she still says things that hurt my feelings sometimes, but then I just think about how nice she was during dinner, and I can’t help but smile because I think she took something away from our meeting – that her words have consequences, even if she can’t do anything about it. I learned something, too: benign, passive acceptance.

    Ann may still say some of those things, but imagine if every liberal walked up to her and apologized for what they’ve said about her. Then her columns would change! I know they would. Imagine if the blacks hadn’t made so much noise in the sixties and simply asked for their rights. Then we might have avoided all the riots and tear gas.

    I’m also baffled by the left’s treatment of George Bush. Why does the opposition party have to oppose him all the time? Couldn’t they at least be a little nicer about it? War is no time for disagreement. The Democrats and news media were very well behaved for a year or so, and the public thought the war was going smoothly. Kristof definitely approved! But then, people slowly started to say bad things about the war and people’s perceptions began to change. You can’t blame that on the President. Iraq was a mess long before then. It was only when the Democrats started to ask questions that people began to turn.

    Have we learned nothing from Vietnam? If all those protestors hadn’t made so much noise about it, we’d still be there today, and we wouldn’t have taken such a blow to our self esteem! I mean, did the Republicans criticize Clinton during Kosovo? Did they say anything bad about Carter during the hostage crisis? Of course they did! But they’re Republicans, and we as liberals should respect them for their differences. If Republicans backed down, that would be betraying who they are: stubborn, unthinking blowhards. But if we don’t back down, that would be betraying who we are: weak-kneed, mealy-mouthed pussies.

    I know that’s who we are because Rush Limbaugh says so. Limbaugh wouldn’t lie about a thing like that because it would be rude of us to say so, and we liberals should never, ever say something rude, even when it’s true.

    The greatest challenge this nation faces is not terrorism or torture, but civility. Every time I turn on the TV and radio, all I hear is yelling. Oh, how it hurts my ears! Why can’t the left see that the only reason people like O’Reilly and Scarborough scream at us is because we disagree with them? If we stopped disagreeing, we’d all get along, and that’s the important thing.

    We can’t change who the Republicans are. We can only change ourselves. We, alone, have the capacity to heal the great divide in this country. If the Republicans want to discriminate against gays and outsource torture, then it’s up to us to meet them halfway. If they still refuse to budge, then we will give them a little more, and if they refuse again then we give them a little more until we’re all in agreement. If it is not in the Republicans nature to compromise, we will. If the Republicans will not yield, then we will. If they will not back down, then, my friends, we will, every single time. Our nation’s civility depends on it.

    Stay tuned for Nicholas Kristof’s next column in the editorial pages of the New York Times: “How Bush can Salvage the Democrat’s Mismanagement of Iraq – If Only the Democrats will Let Him.”

  • Memekiller — A masterful performance, if it’s OK that I say so, as I sure wouldn’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings.

  • “…The problem isn’t that liberals “scorn people for their faith”; it’s that Nick Kristof hasn’t noticed how wrong this argument is.”

    There a major difference between things you are ‘born’ into and things you come to believe. He equates scorn of people with the scorn for ideas and beliefs people may hold. They don’t equate at all.

    Scorning a belief system is not the same as scorning the people who hold such beliefs. The frame is all wrong as it was not liberals who were banning evangelicals but the other way around. The condemnation from the likes of Pat Robertson and others was filled with liberal hate and certainly not indicative of the hero of their beliefs. They proved that morality does not have a Christian bias unique only to them. The evangelicals have come to see that we are all children of God and have come around to accepting the idea that liberals and democrats aare good and moral people also and not instruments of the devil.

    CB is absolutely right on the idea that ‘if’ anyone were mocking Hukabee it was because of his ideas and not his religion. Sorry but the idea of “you don’t like me because I’m a Christian” just ain’t so. We don’t like you because you say some very insane things, like those mentioned by CB.

  • ***memekiller comment #29***hahahahahahahahahaha.lol Please don’t start advising Obama. He’d laugh himself to death from the irony.

  • Huckabee is the one dragging his religion through the mud. We’re just pointing it out to everyone.

  • Wow! How sad it is to see such comments? The comments posted on this blog has everything to do with Huck’s religious beliefs, not his ideas. Try to candycoat it anyway you like; but if you are honest with yourself, you will find that the hatred and bigotry displayed on this blog and in the media is because Huck is a CHRISTian. No doubt about that. This would not even be a discussion if he was an athiest, mormon, buddist, hindu, muslim, evolutionist, etc. Why? Because it would then be seen as intolerant. Huck and other CHRISTians are criticized for not believing in evolution. Well, since all of you lost people out there put your faith in science instead of your Creator, the Lord Jesus Christ; I challenge you to use science to try to disprove The Bible. You will find that God’s Word is the truth regardless of your choice to believe or not. There are many former evolutionist’s that are now Creationists; however, there are not any former Creationists that are now evolutionist. Research for yourself.

    My heart cries out to the Lord that He saves your souls. Jesus loves you and will forgive your ignorance of His Word.

  • Seattle Liberal said:
    >>

    And every Friday in my town, you will find a group of people standing on a corner downtown with signs stating “Stop the illegal war in Iraq” and other similar anti-war messages. I know many of these people to be Christians.

    See the comments at the end for what people at my church are doing.

    I will agree with both Kristof and Seattle Liberal on some of their points.

    Re Kristof: I have many times here had to ask a few posters to please not mock me for my faith. It is possible to believe in God and use one’s (God-given) brain to think rationally (heck, I have a college degree in science). In fact, I believe it’s irresponsible for people NOT to think rationally and to instead believe what they’re told. It’s irresponsible for them to take the Bible literally (my pastor calls them the “metaphorically challenged”).

    Re Seattle Liberal: There are extremists in any religion unfortunately. That seems to be a leading cause (besides multi-national corporate greed) of conflict around the globe, very unfortunately.

    #34: Hello, the Bible is not a science textbook. It was written for people thousands of years ago, for their level of understanding. (see my comment two paragraphs above). Are you sure that God isn’t the ultimate scientist? Why would God give us brains to unlock the mysteries of science? Do you go to the doctor, take medications for illnesses? If so, you are relying on the SCIENCE of medicine. Your rant is why many mock Christianity.

    #10: I would never tell you you were going to hell for not believing. OK?

    In case anyone is still reading, I leave you with this final thought:
    We have a lot of people “camping” out in areas around our town (federal land). The homeless shelters are full, many do not want to go there. Last week it was bitterly cold (zero), two homeless people died of hypothermia. Some people at my church organized getting firewood out to the camps. We were also asked to temporarily (during the bitter cold) house some of the people that were willing to come at our church overnight and fed them. We said yes without hesitation. We don’t ask these people to convert, we don’t make them read the Bible, we just care for them, talk to them, get to know them as people. We also don’t expect any plaudits for this, we feel it is what Jesus asked us to do.

    (As an aside, our church was the first, under the leadership of a retired pastor, to set up a homeless shelter, which rotated among many local churches during the winter. It now has a permanent home, which is, as I said above, full. I tell this to those of you who think organized religion serves no purpose. It is our community of believers that tries to do good work in our town. Our church also, at no benefit to us, agreed to house the local Head Start program, which lost its prior home, so that low income kids could get a “head start” to enter school successfully.)

    Our church is going to be getting involved in trying to help the leadership of our town figure out some kind of solution for the homeless. We have far too many working folks that are homeless and can’t afford a place to live. This, in the richest country in the world. It’s shameful.

  • #35: Seattle Liberal’s quote didn’t come through in my post. It read:

    “On most Saturdays in the downtown seattle area you will find “Christians standing at two to four corners of an intersection, literally on boxes, screaming at passers by that if they don’t repent they are going to hell. These guys are simply an American version of the Taliban.”

  • What fucken ever. They can slam and do way worse then mock every other religion, but yet the world should handle these clowns with kid gloves, because they think they are right.

    I believe in America, it is inappropriate to mock qualities than are biological. Race, gender, handicaps, and on and on.

    Beliefs can be mocked all day, every day. If I believe there are invisible hookers in my car, it is no different then people thinking there is an invisible being in the air. Guess what, people are going to clown me on my beliefs, from invisible hookers, to global warming, to an Earth millions of years old.

    But for some god damn reason, christians can dish it out by the truck load all day long, but they can not take even a teaspoon full.

    They can believe whatever they want, that is their right, and I can make fun of them, that is my right. Their beliefs are no more important then mine, we are equal and once they wraps their heads around that, the mocking to disappear.

  • They constitute one of the few minorities that, on the American coasts or university campuses, it remains fashionable to mock.

    THEY’RE NOT A MINORITY!!

    Now that I have that off my chest …

    I do, in some ways, see where he’s coming from. There’s just one small problem I have with it:

    If the fundies don’t want their beliefs scrutinized and, yes, even mocked, then they shouldn’t make those beliefs the basis for everything they do.

    THEY are the ones who brought their religion into it.

    THEY are the ones who won’t shut up about it.

    THEY are the ones who think everyone else should follow their particular belief system.

    THEY are the ones who want to enshrine their own religious beliefs into everyone’s Constitution.

    If they can’t handle the scrutiny and snide comments that come with that, then they should not have made their religious beliefs the basis of their governance.

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