Osama bin Laden and habeas corpus

MSNBC’s political blog featured an item with this headline: “Would bin Laden get habeas rights?” And with that in mind, you can feel pretty confident that the news gets worse from there.

In a question posed toward the end of the call by Stephen Hayes of the Weekly Standard, the McCain campaign might have found a new talking point with which to emphasize the possible effect of the Gitmo decision. Hayes’ asked if — in the campaign’s interpretation — the Court’s decision would mean that if Osama bin Laden was captured and imprisoned at Guantanamo, he too would be entitled to Habeas Corpus rights. The McCain campaign’s answer was yes.

And, of course, we’re supposed to believe any legal standard that would extend habeas rights to bin Laden necessarily means the legal standard is wrong. The Examiner struck a similar note, emphasizing the Obama campaign’s willingness to allow bin Laden to have habeas rights.

Barack Obama’s foreign policy advisers said Tuesday that Osama bin Laden, if captured, should be allowed to appeal his case to U.S. civilian courts, a privilege opposed by John McCain.

Responding to questions from The Examiner, Sen. John Kerry and former White House counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke said bin Laden would benefit from last week’s Supreme Court decision giving terrorism suspects habeas corpus, the right to appeal their military detention to civilian courts.

Kerry added that bin Laden would get habeas rights no matter who gets elected president, because it’s the law. Randy Scheunemann, McCain’s senior foreign policy adviser, said those rights should not be extended to bin Laden, though it wasn’t clear what “should” has to do with this.

I realize the political dynamic here. For the right, capturing bin Laden and following the rule of law is somehow a sign of “weakness.” If bin Laden enters the justice system, it’s akin to “coddling.”

All of this is terribly silly, and as demagoguery goes, unusually cheap.

First, it’s probably worth noting that this might not just be an academic exercise if Bush hadn’t decided that capturing the al Qaeda leader who orchestrated 9/11 was no longer important. Indeed, perhaps we can have the Tora Bora discussion again?

Second, Republicans have suggested that Obama would want terrorists (including, presumably, OBL) tried in civilian courts. But that’s not true, either.

Third, getting a conviction in this case wouldn’t be especially difficult. As one of John Cole’s commenters put it, “I guess not a single person in the Justice Department has ever figured out how they’re going to try Osama bin Laden. I know it’s a complex case involving some difficult-to-pronounce syllables and maybe even some maps with even more difficult names, but are we really unprepared for a Habeas response regarding Osama Freakin’ bin Laden?”

And finally, the question itself about whether bin Laden would somehow qualify for habeas is itself foolish. Anonymous Liberal explained this very well:

Embedded in Hayes question is the bizarre and completely unamerican notion that your legal rights should somehow depend on how “bad” a person you are. The more serious the crimes for which you stand accused, the less rights you should have under the law. But that’s quite obviously not how any system of rights is supposed to operate. Hayes’ question is like asking whether a serial killer has the right to counsel or the right to a jury trial. Of course he does. The whole point of due process is to determine whether someone is guilty. It’s the punishment that is supposed to vary depending on the seriousness of the crime, not the process.

It’s pathetic that someone with even moderate intelligence would ask a question like that or think that it was in any way insightful.

Quite right, but I have a hunch we’ll be hearing it again, quite often, between now and November.

Further preying on the ignorance of cable news audience and hosts alike, the Republicans pretend that habeas includes the right to sue for such things as draperies in their cells and special dinners.

  • If the War on Terra can’t have been trusted enough to survive Osama Bin Laden’s habeas challenge, it wasn’t a very effective war, was it?

  • “We’ll give him a fair trial and hang him in the morning.” That’s what they would say in the old cowboy movies. McCain and Bush and the conservatives have updated that process to include torture.

  • Osama bin Laden is an international terrorist- it should be done at the Hague. We’re not the only vicims of Al Qaeda much as Bush would have you think.

  • Barack Obama (Aug 2007):

    I also will reject a legal framework that does not work. There has been only one conviction at Guantanamo. It was for a guilty plea on material support for terrorism. The sentence was 9 months. There has not been one conviction of a terrorist act. I have faith in America’s courts, and I have faith in our JAGs. As President, I will close Guantanamo, reject the Military Commissions Act, and adhere to the Geneva Conventions. Our Constitution and our Uniform Code of Military Justice provide a framework for dealing with the terrorists.

    Nuff said.

  • This is the most shameless thing I’ve seen McCain say in a long time. First of all, of course Osama would get habeas rights if he was detained at Guantanamo, or at least he should. Second, so what? Anonymous Liberal’s response is completely correct, but even from an outcome-oriented perspective, it’s not as if the writ of habeas corpus (or its federal statutory incarnation at 28 USC 2255) grants federal courts license to put dangerous criminals back on the streets en masse. I work on 2255 cases all the time; they’re almost never granted, because the writ is intended to issue only where the petitioner’s case was marked by a serious constitutional error (in which case most of the time they’re entitled only to a new trial, not an acquittal), or when new evidence emerges that casts serious doubt on the conviction– pretty unlikely to happen in bin Laden’s case, but in the exceedingly remote chance that it did, why would McCain want any innocent person to be without legal recourse?

    But Anonymous Liberal’s primary point is absolutely right: entitlement to due process of law is not dependent on the public’s judgment of an individual’s character.

  • More to the point, should George Bush be indicted for war crimes should he be allowed the right to habeus corpus at his trial? He would be tried in the Hague and not in the US.

  • You know what would be teh asum??!? if the U.S. Captured someone everyone knows is a really bad guy, and then generated sympathy for him by denying him due process of law under circumstances in which a conviction and subsequent execution were all but a given.

  • You would think the MSM would be all over Bin Laden having a trial.. think of the ratings!

  • Further evidence that conservatives are simply fascists. They have NO respect whatsoever for the laws of our land.

    Capturing and prosecuting Bin Laden (if he’s still alive) in a court of law would do wonders for our reputation on the world stage. It would show that the United States still follows the principles it espouses.

    It would also send a clear message to terrorists: The Bu$h years are over. You will no longer be holding our nation captive and in fear. We will not allow you to accomplish your goal of changing our society. We will deal with you people just like any other criminal orginization.

  • “…not a single person in the Justice Department has ever figured out how they’re going to try Osama bin Laden…”

    which would surprise me in the least.

  • Dear Barack:

    Please feel free to borrow without attribution.

    “Now, my opponent thinks he has a clever new sound bite to use against me, asking whether I believe Osama bin Laden should have the right of habeaus corpus. For someone who has served so long as a government insider, I’m surprised Senator McCain doesn’t understand that what I think isn’t the issue.

    The Supreme Court — not a bunch of liberals by any definition, more than half were appointed by Republicans — has said the United States Constitution grants bin Laden that right if he is captured and put into Gitmo. That Constitution is a precious gift from our Founding Fathers, it defines us as a country, and sets us apart from our enemies; and so the question is what other parts of it does John McCain want to throw away?

    But the really disappointing part of these new attacks isn’t that the Republicans are coming after me with soundbites. The disappointing part is that all the Republicans have to say about terrorism is soundbites. All they have to come after Osama bin Laden with is soundbites. I have news for Senator McCain: singing a Beach Boys tune reworded to joke about bombing Iran is not a foriegn policy. Neither the song, nor the actual bombing of Iran, would make us safer. Coming after me for joining the Supreme Court in supporting the Constitution is not a foreign policy and will not make us safer.

    John McCain has joined with George W. Bush in supporting a war that is unpopular at home, unpopular among countries that should be our strong allies, and unpopular with our potential allies in the Middle East. It has cost literally billions of dollars at a time when our American families need that money in our own economy back here. It has cost the lives of far too many members of the American family, and it has done all of this while distracting from the real issues of the threat of terrorism. John McCain may question how I would handle the capture of bin Laden, but that would be the first interest the Republicans have shown in the capture of bin Laden in over 5 years.

    Remember, it was a Republican administration who let bin Laden get away at Tora Bora. It was a Republican administration that has let Afghanistan, where he trained for the 9/11 attacks, backslide so that parts are now back under the control of the Taliban. It was a Republican administration that has failed to resolve the problem of extremists taking refuge in Pakistan — in fact, John McCain once attacked me for being willing to go after bin Laden in Pakistan. Remember this when you hear John McCain and his surrogates claiming that I am not strong enough on bin Laden. Ask them where they have been these past 5 years while we spend our resources in Iraq, knowing the entire time that bin Laden is not there. Having to worry about what rights to give a captured bin Laden would be a great problem to have, and one we likely will never need to worry about if Republicans like Senator McCain keep us tied to an Iraq war that never should have happened instead of focusing our resources on the real threat of al Queda in other parts of the world.

    So by all means, Senator McCain, keep those sound bites coming. And while you and those people who need to cover their backsides for the problems the Iraq war has caused are busy working on that, I will work with those Americans looking for a new way, a better way, for a smarter foreign policy that goes beyond sound bites, an anti-terrorism policy that includes actual plans, not just political punch lines — a foreign policy that represents a sea change from the Bush Administration, that represents a change that we can believe in again.”

  • Didn’t Sadam have habeas rights? What is wrong with these people? Never mind, I know. Issa’s comment about Russert and drilling made that clear.
    Our press is just plain embarrassing at times. But right off most people already know that OBL is dead and that is why Bush said he just wasn’t that important anymore. With all the political capital his capture would have brought do you really believe he would still be at large? He’s dead and Bush and McCain both know this.

    “…It’s the punishment that is supposed to vary depending on the seriousness of the crime, not the process…”

    This is rabble rousing at it’s worst. Even the WWII war criminals were given habeas rights.
    Is the public given opposing opinions as prominent as this article. You’d think reporters would be willing to jump on something this ridiculous. Just saying.

  • I sort of agree with DaP (#1) that this is just a way to pander to ignorance. Despite its recent mention in the news, I’d bet a scary percentage of people have no idea what habeus corpus IS, and likely believe it’s the same as “get out of jail free.”
    .

  • UBL could ask for Habeas Rights. So what. A court would turn him down. This is really stupid.

    There are about 275 “detainees.”

    Some are/were wrongfully detained. Some have not done anything hostile against the USA, but their home countries won’t accept them back because they are trouble makers. And some are terrorists who need to be given a trial and punished.

    ShrubCo has not done anything to ensure the guilty get punished or the wrongfully accused be set free. Nothing.

    Now McCain and his shills are pushing a false choice that the “detainees” either have no rights whatsoever or they’ll have full access to US Courts and all constititional protections. This is B.S. It is a false choice.

    It is going on 7 years and Bush has done nothing. UBL is still free. And McCain is calling to stay the course, full steam ahead.

    These people have failed so miserably that they shouldn’t be taken seriously at all.

  • If they can’t find enough evidence to hold Osama Bin Laden, then he should absolutely go free. But I have a pretty good feeling that we have the evidence needed.

  • ????? They act like habeas is some kind of get out of jail free card. If you don’t torture prisoners and violate basic standards of human decency, then habeas corpus review is a formality that changes nothing.

    Furthermore, I thought people like Bush and McCain never discussed hypotheticals. The question presupposes that we will actually capture Bin Laden, which seems very unlikely to happen under Republican leadership.

  • The HEART of this question, is why did our government NOT treat the wreckage at the WTC and the Pentagon as a crime scene?
    The largest crime on US soil, and instead of forensics, they whisked away evidence as fast as they could. They never had a “warren Commision” inquiry, and if they haven’t and cannot build a case against OBL, they ought to be in jail for malfeasance.

    Truth is, if OBL is alive, and taken, he’d most certainly be captured on foreign (to the US) soil. He would most likely be handled much as Hussein was.
    That’s assuming he lived through capture.

    It’s the dumbest thing. The law is the law. If they are going to shitcan it out of fear (actually disavowing the contitution, and making the US into a 3rd world dictatorship) then they no longer represent the US.

    Remember what we aspired for the US to be? Fair. Honest. Law abiding. Decent.
    You know what folks, we had the Soviet Union at our throats, the revolutionary army was under more threat (as any american from the civil war was) of sudden violent death than ANYONE living in the US tody. Dead is dead. They were smart enough to see that you either live as a free person, or you cower and brutalize and become a pariah land. They were under threat of death. It isn’t “worse” today.

    I don’t want my country to throw innocent people in jail for undetermined time. I fear their petty, arbitrary unfeeling bullyness more than I feer a terror attack. They create more terror with this crap.

    THE LAW IS THE LAW. Habeus corpus is a necessary bit of law. You cannot trust these bookkeepers with waterboards and black souls to administer justice.
    We have too many stories already of people knowingly innocent, being hounded and all sorts of nastiness.

    So take your stupid hypotheticals and stuff em in Guantanamo.

  • For the habeas question to have any meaning anyway, we’d have to catch him first. And until we get someone in charge who really wants to, it’s not going to happen.

    Another tempest in a teapot at this stage, you ask me.

  • Commander Guy sez:
    “These people have failed so miserably that they shouldn’t be taken seriously at all.”
    Quite true.
    Except their supporters control nearly all of the Corp Media, and they contol the message content.
    So we have the situation where the people who have gotten everything wrong are give the bullhorns, the real estate, and the prominent positions on the TeeVee. Bill Kristol is a perfect example of the Orwellian state of the Corp Media.
    We Americans work long, hard hours & usually have little time to investigate the real situations, so the TeeVee & the newspapers form a lot of opinions.
    In my opinion, this is the greatest threat to America, psychopatic corporations forming public opinion.
    Shoot, we now have the first psychopath as president, do we need further proof?

  • We tried the 1993 WTC bombers and they are all in jail for life.

    We tried the Oklahoma City bomber and he got the death penalty, which Janet Reno announced she would seek on the same day the incident happened, before he was even caught.

    What exactly is the reason the criminal court process is not appropriate?

    Oh yes, it would bring to light the confessions elicited by torture, and the pattern of violations of U.S. and international law by the current administration.

    That’s what’s really at stake here.

  • I can’t believe no one else has mentioned Nuremberg. We — and nothing in our history might be a prouder moment — insisted that even the Nazis should be tried, fairly, in a court filled with standard procedural protections. (It was the evil Communists — and they were — who were in favor of ‘taking them out back and shooting them.’) And we would have done the same to Hitler and Goebbles if they hadn’t suicided.

    And it worked. The worst criminals were sentenced to death. Others were given prison sentences of various lengths. And one, Hans Fritsche (sp?), a news broadcaster who was — as everyone knew — merely being tried as a substitute for Goebbles, was actually acquitted.

    And a damn good case can be made that by doing this, the cause of Democracy — in Germany and elsewhere — was better served than it would have by any other means.

  • Suggesting that bin Laden be afforded the opportunity to have his case tried in our civilian courts opens people’s minds to the notion of Bushylvanian Neo-Foxists Bush and Friends having their “day in court.”

  • Prup (aka Jim Benton) beat me to it — we took those who orchestrated perhaps the most notorious, disgusting, evil, and abhorrent actions in the history of humanity and **gasp** GAVE THEM A FAIR TRIAL.

    Doing so proved we were on the right side … that we respected the rule of law … that we had faith in our beliefs and in our being correct … and that a fair trial can, in fact, be had no matter who is being tried, nor for what crimes.

    The idea it was good enough for the Nazis — the goddamn Nazis — but not OBL isn’t just ridiculous. It’s ricockulous.

  • Strange days are here. Remember before the Bush regime when Americans were proud of habeus corpus? Remember when we were proud of fair and swift justice? Wasn’t one of the things that made us “free” the right to a fair trial and the fact that we were willing to extend these rights to those not yet proven guilty?

    If bin Laden renders Americans to be torturers, lynch mobs and tyrants in a single attack by 19 men, even if we kill every “terrorist” bin Laden still wins.

    At best, Bush’s “interpretation” of the law is that OBL’s terrorism “allows” us to become barbarians for a time, then return to civilized behavior after we “win”. This opinion is uncivilized in itself, Mr. Yoo.

  • I know it’s unpopular here, but there is considerable evidence — carefully hidden and emphatically denied, of course, by BushCo — that 9-11 was indeed an inside job. The 911 Commission Report, heavily reacted from public view, is a sham and a cover-up, and not to be trusted. The Bush gang in every respect demonstrate ‘guilty demeanor’ in regard to the non-provision and withholding of evidence. The whole episode reeks of deception, foreknowledge and — dare I say it — conspiracy.
    What we do know is that the bin Laden family were close buddies of the Bush cartel and were conveniently whisked out of the country immediately following the catastrophe, at a time when all other planes were grounded. Osama bin Laden himself has consistently denied knowledge of or implication in the attack. There is substantial evident now coming to light that the whole tragedy had little or nothing to do with purported terrorists and everything to do with PNAC’s fanatical global ambitions.
    Personally, I believe there is every reason to be circumspect about bin Laden’s presumed guilt, and every reason to re-open investigations into the event with the horrendous prospect of discovering that the true culprits are closer to home than one might suspect or care to admit.

  • And Justice For All has become And Justice For Those Who Can Provide Documented Proof They aren’t Immigrants, Students Overstaying Their Visas and What The State Deems to Be Enemy Combatants….

    you do not hafff zee papersss….you are shcrewed!

    Capt Kirk says:
    At best, Bush’s “interpretation” of the law is that OBL’s terrorism “allows” us to become barbarians for a time, then return to civilized behavior after we “win”. This opinion is uncivilized in itself, Mr. Yoo.

    -and it is determined by these “savages” to return to normal at a date and time of their choosing….namely never. Bush never read Lord of the Flies.

    We’re taking the conch back ya bastiges!

  • As usual the hysterical right misses the point. Things like extending habeus corpus to detainees or even — gasp! — bin Laden are not about the terrorists and how bad they are or what evil they’ve done. Guaranteeing fundamental human rights to even the most loathsome isn’t about them. It’s about us. What kind of people do we chose to be? What kind of liberty do we pass on to our children?

    Denying fundamental rights merely vindicates the terrorists.
    We are stronger than that.
    We are smarter than that.
    We are better than that.

  • Would like to see a response from Obama along the lines of “Wait a sec. These guys forgot about OBL the moment the neocons whispered “Iraq” in Dick Cheney’s ear, and spent umpty billions chasing illusions in the wrong country. Now they want to have a fight about what to do if we ever catch him? How about we have this discussion after we’ve stopped wasting time and lives in Iraq and refocussed our efforts on Afghanistan and actually nailing the bastard who did so much to harm us.”

  • So this is one of the wacko left sites where ignorance is shown. Talking values, morals, and faith in our judicial system, what a joke. Democrats know nothing about any of these things and when we get Obama Hussein as President and get hit shortly after I wonder what will be the talk. It’s a shame that we have such short memories but I am guessing that we will be awaken again and then we’ll go talk to all our enemies to see if they wouldn’t mind toning it down a bit.

  • you don’t share the values and morals of the US Constitution and you have no faith in America’s uniquely successful judicial system?

    why do conservatives like you hate America?

  • 32., james k. sayre said: Too bad that OBL passed away over six years ago in December, 2001. His body is buried in mountainous SW Afghanistan. Check out http://www.whatreallyhappened.com and read about the faked video tapes and faked audio tapes, probably Made in USA (not much else is, these days…).

    That is also a great website to read about how Hillary murdered Vince Foster, and just about every other conspiracy theory ever. I didn’t see anything about who killed Sonny Bono though, which was a disappointment.

  • Obviously you know nothing about me “wednesdaze”. The problem is I love it to much to sit and watch it being taken over from within. I served this country for 20 years and 18 days as part of the United States Air Force (Served in Europe and Korea for a total of 12 years) and I have seen the double talk from liberals over those years. They treat the military like dirt and then say they support us, hog wash. Everything they do is for political gain and for promoting immoral life styles. If you lived with people outside of the United States, you would know they haven’t liked us for decades, the only difference is now they feel they can say it out loud because so many of us are doing it.

  • LOL. you know you’ve stumbled into the nuthouse when someone honestly tries to make an argument that 9/11 was an inside job by the Bushies.

    Some thoughts concerning the SC Decision:
    Terrorists are not lawful combatants under the Geneva Convention.
    Foreign fighters have never in our history been given habeus corpus rights (they have only applied to US Citizens).Nor is habeus corpus a fundamental human right.
    Now, soldiers will be required to hold onto evidence for each combatant captured.
    So many of you think that a trial in our civilian courts is going to win applause from people hostile to us. You really think they are going to act like even a civilian trial was unbiased? Get Real.

    Quotes from above:
    “We’re not the only vicims of Al Qaeda much as Bush would have you think.”
    -LOL. Why would Bush want you to think we’re the only victims of Al Qaeda?
    “What exactly is the reason the criminal court process is not appropriate?”
    -how expensive do you think it will be to try the ?275? left in Guantanamo in Civilian court? what will we do with the roughly 30000 being held in prisons in Iraq?
    “[the overall feeling of Bush lied to start the war]”
    -Dive into Rockefeller’s report, in search of where exactly President Bush lied about what his intelligence agencies were telling him about the threat posed by Saddam Hussein, and you may be surprised by what you find.
    On Iraq’s nuclear weapons program? The president’s statements “were generally substantiated by intelligence community estimates.”
    On biological weapons, production capability and those infamous mobile laboratories? The president’s statements “were substantiated by intelligence information.”
    On chemical weapons, then? “Substantiated by intelligence information.”
    On weapons of mass destruction overall (a separate section of the intelligence committee report)? “Generally substantiated by intelligence information.” Delivery vehicles such as ballistic missiles? “Generally substantiated by available intelligence.” Unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to deliver WMDs? “Generally substantiated by intelligence information.”

  • so many liberals/dems seem to think that conservatives/Repubs think GW Bush is the greatest thing since sliced bread. we don’t (McCain for example). we have much to criticize Bush for- making the case for Iraq too strongly without noting that intelligence info could be wrong (when all he needed to say was, “but we can’t afford to wait and see, it could be too late”.) (McCain for example) He and Congress have been on a spending spree that we don’t approve (McCain for example). Many of us don’t support torture and others want Guantanomo closed (McCain for example). almost everyone believes the President has not done enough to inform the US about why and what is going on in Iraq (McCain for example). etc

    the difference though is that we believe/understand that radical fundamentalist Islam espousing Jihad is not going to just go away. 9/11 taught us that they will seek to hit us anytime, anywhere there is an opportunity. and Bush believes that also and he is doing everything in his power to stop them from doing it again. You can call it “fear mongering” or “war mongering” or “the politics of fear”, but it is the truth. they seek to destroy us and we won’t let them. McCain supports Bush in this and so do we.

  • The (f)right wing screaming about Osama Bin Laden and habeas corpus makes me think that they’ve never read the recipe for Welsh rabbit. It starts: “First, catch your rabbit.”

    I don’t know whether OBL is still alive or not. I don’t know why more effort had not been expended towards apprehending him all those years ago (could be that he’s like abortion issues — more useful as a tool to whip the populace into a frenzy than as a solved problem). But I really have grave doubts that, if he *were* caught somewhere in Pakistan, he’d survive the trip to US to claim the habeas corpus rights…

  • Has anyone tried saying this?

    If the U.S. Government can’t find the grounds to try and convict Osama bin Laden in ANY court in ANY country in the World then they really don’t deserve to be the government.

    This man has admitted to planning the 9/11 attacks. Sure, give him a Habeas hearing. He’s going to lose.

  • mb said: “Some thoughts concerning the SC Decision:
    … habeus corpus [is not] a fundamental human right.”

    Nope, it’s a fundmental limitation on the U.S. (and U.K. for that matter) Government, notably the Executive, which dates back to the reign of King John (notice the lack of a ‘First’ after his name, the bastard was so bad they never had another). The Government can’t hold someone without giving them a due process explanation of WHY.

    And the sad thing is, about half the guys at GitMo don’t belong there and would be freed by a habeas hearing. And the Bushites know this perfectly well. They just try to scare you with the other half (the real terrorists and Taliban (is fighting for your own country under the flag of your own government terrorism?) ) getting out if the innocent people got their hearings.

    And the Bushites being incompetents, dangerous people would end up being let go. There have been about a score of ex-GitMo detainees released by the Bushties who have joined the fight against America in Afghanistan or Iraq.

    Of course, whether they were terrorists before we grabbed and tortured them is another question.

  • mb, at #40 you almost sound like you sincerely want to discuss as opposed to just trolling, so i’ll bite just this once.

    Your main premise for your position is:

    we believe/understand that radical fundamentalist Islam espousing Jihad is not going to just go away. 9/11 taught us that they will seek to hit us anytime, anywhere there is an opportunity.

    Contrary to your insinusation, a lot of people on the left would agree with that. There are three issues that raises, however, that make the leap from your premise to your conclusion (that Bush’s Iraq and anti-terror policies have been correct) a very long and perilous one.

    1) It doesn’t explain Iraq at all. Iraq was not a “radical fundamentalist Islam” state. The Baath party, while largely Sunni, was a secular party, and Hussein only took up the mantle of religion late in the game to try and encourage fundamentalists to rally to his defense from the US. Indeed women’s rights have actually been curtailed since the fall of Saddam, because he did not believe in Sharia law and the new leaders do. Al Queda was not active there prior to the fall of Saddam, the 9/11 attacks were not planned from or carried out from Iraq; most of the attackers were Saudis – about the only country we haven’t rattled a saber at.

    2) It still requires being smart about the response. You can’t just say “radical Islamic fundamentalists mean us harm!” and lash out wildly. That is wasteful, unstrategic, and sure to cause more harm than good — but it is essentially what we did and continue to do. It also means being realistic: you say that the jihadis will “hit us anytime, anywhere” — but they have limited capacities. This is not the German army of 1939. This is not the Soviet Union circa 1979. We actually make them more popular and more powerful by treating them like they have more potency than they really do.

    3) Whatever your assessment of their potency, you still have to determine the appropriate level of trade-off. What are we willing to become, or give up, for what increment of added security? Sure, we could simply ban all international travel, have random searches of everyone’s home and workplace, spend the entire budget on military buildup, have a draft, ration goods made of resources useful for war industries, suspend free speech, suspend protections against search and seizure, all in the name of security. And we would, in fact be very, very secure: I can safely say no foreign terrorist would harm us. My guess is that no one would be very happy with that level of trade off — and it would hardly be the America we know and claim to want to defend. Simply saying we have to be aggressive against terrorist is a slogan, not a plan. Would you draw any lines at all?

    Many on the left agree with your premise, but it doesn’t at all require your conclusion. It is precisely because radical fundamentalists (of any stripe, frankly) are a threat to our security that we need to find a better, smarter, more targeted, less dogmatic way of dealing with that threat than Bush (or conservative Republicans in general) have done so far.

  • I’d like to second the points that wednesdaze makes in comment #44.

    With regard to mb’s claim that Bush “is doing everything in his power” to stop terrorists from attacking us again, I disagree.

    It’s obvious that Bush lost interest in Afghanistan after the fall of Kabul. He did things like failing to request any foreign aid for Afghanistan in his 2003 budget. He pulled out the special forces who speak Arabic from Afghanistan just when they were beginning to get the trust of the local population (so that these forces would be available for Iraq).

    On the domestic front, Bush has also been less than enthusiastic about stopping terrorist attacks. Before 9/11, he was opposed to taking steps to making chemical plants more secure. That opposition continued after 9/11; his opposition to regulating industry trumped his concerns about terrorism.

    Perhaps the most frightening possibility facing the United States is that terrorist might some day get their hands on a nuclear weapon. But working to ensure that the nuclear capabilities of the former Soviet Union don’t fall into the wrong hands is unglamorous work, which is presumably why Bush isn’t interested in it.

    The Bush Administration invokes the threat of terrorism when it wants to justify things like invade Iraq or curtailing civil liberties. And I’m sure that there are people at lower levels of the Administration who are seriously concerned about the terrorist threat and are doing all they can. But I don’t see how the notion that there is a concerted effort to fight terrorism directed by Bush–that Bush is doing all he can to stop future terrorist attacks–can be squared with the Bush Administration’s record.

  • Hey looks like ya all need my help here…. what a mess we have liberals saying the Osamma deserves his day in court like any other citizen of the good ole USA… we have wacko leftists saying the President Bush conspired the 911 masacre, we have the conservatives of course saying that they are ashamed of all the liberals.. perhaps a word of advice here to settle things down.. well here it goes………. everyone to the left of the aisle.. you are dead wrong….. everyone to the right.. you are right of course… the wacko with the conspirist theory perhaps some tinfoil in your attic will help keep the mind police out… OK did that settle it for you guys … figured it would… always glad to help….
    Bubba said that…..the troll you all love to hate….

  • The left wing bloggers on this site need to wake up and realize that we are at war w/ Islamo-fascists. There are many reasons that terrorists do not deserve the treatment (and therefore protection) of our criminal justice system. In treating terrorists as “common” criminals they are entitled to discovery. This means that the terrorists then learn all of the prosecutor’s intelligence, sources and means of acquiring said intelligence. It was through discovery in the 1st WTC bombing trial that Bin Laden and his ilk discovered how the U.S. was monitoring him and enabled Bin Laden to change and thrwart future detection. The 9/11 Commission itself said that the criminal justice system is ill prepared to properly deal w/ terrorists because the protection afforded defendants handcuffs authorities from discovering and preventing future terrorists attacks. As for habeas corpus, Bush is not the 1st to suspend it. Lincoln did in the Civil War and over 3000 germans were denied it by FDR in WWII. If Congress wanted to make waterboarding a criminal act, than write the law and pass it, but the fact is there aren’t the votes to do it. The left just want to bitch and use it as a talking point to embarass threir country and President as they seem more concerned w/ protecting terrorists than defeating terrorists. I say waterboard every gitmo detainee if it means saving one American life and preventing a future attack. Last, but not least, all of this left wing blather about securing for terrorists equal protection under the law deals w/ terrorists after the fact – after they have performed an act of terrorism,. All of you should get down on your hands and knees and thank God that we have had Geo. Bush as our President for he has prevented any more attacks since 9/11. Bush’s methods have kept us safe. Clinton’s methods o9f treating terrorism as a law enforcement problem are what led to 9/11

  • The point is moot. As with Bush, McCain will not capture bin Laden in order to hang the boogie man over our heads.

  • Hmm, so now we’re “at war with Islamo-fascists?” I don’t think so. There are no “Islamo-fascists.” This term is a creation of some demented right-wing blowhards, who have about zero knowledge of the people of the Middle East and our imperial intervention there since the end of WW I. Read up some history and get smart!

    Actually, the good ole USofA has been engaged in imperialism outside of our borders for over a century now: since the Spanish-American War. Folks might want to read up on how we slaughtered thousands of citizens of the Philippines: lots of USofA terrorizing of the residents there.

    Also,

    On June 18th, 2008 at 6:30 pm, libra said:

    The (f)right wing screaming about Osama Bin Laden and habeas corpus makes me think that they’ve never read the recipe for Welsh rabbit. It starts: “First, catch your rabbit.”

    I trust that you are being tongue-in-cheek. There are rabbits in Wales, but Welsh rarebit is basically toasted cheese on bread, no rabbits involved. The junior high school cafeteria used to serve us “welsh rarebit,” and I always wondered about it…

  • dNa @ 9 hit it for me.

    I think a key problem is the Latin.

    If we explain to Joe Six Pack that “Habeas” means nothing more than “give a reason you’re holding the S.O.B”, I suspect even folks styling themselves as hardcore conservatives would agree it’s no biggie to give Bin Laden “Habeas” rights.

    They’d look befuddled and say, “What du fook da ya tink weez holdin’ da guy for? Cheez!”

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