‘Outmoded, amateurish and unreliable’

Whenever the “debate” over U.S. torture policies (that there even is a debate sends a chill down my spine) comes up, it’s generally unhelpful to focus the discussion on efficacy. We know torture is morally indefensible, which is why advocates prefer to move the goalposts — if we know whether torture works in acquiring valuable information, moral ambiguities aren’t as significant.

With that stipulation in mind, it’s worth remembering that torture fails on both counts.

As the Bush administration completes secret new rules governing interrogations, a group of experts advising the intelligence agencies are arguing that the harsh techniques used since the 2001 terrorist attacks are outmoded, amateurish and unreliable.

The psychologists and other specialists, commissioned by the Intelligence Science Board, make the case that more than five years after the Sept. 11 attacks, the Bush administration has yet to create an elite corps of interrogators trained to glean secrets from terrorism suspects.

While billions are spent each year to upgrade satellites and other high-tech spy machinery, the experts say, interrogation methods — possibly the most important source of information on groups like Al Qaeda — are a hodgepodge that date from the 1950s, or are modeled on old Soviet practices.

Nothing says “American values” like “old Soviet practices,” right?

The experts advising the intelligence agencies prepared a 325-page initial report that, the NYT noted, pressed a practical reality: “there is little evidence, they say, that harsh methods produce the best intelligence.” One of the study’s contributors told the Times that there’s “an assumption that often passes for common sense that the more pain imposed on someone, the more likely they are to comply.”

The assumption, leading Republican presidential candidates notwithstanding, is wrong.

I know it’s inevitable that too many on the right will respond to reports like these by suggesting naive liberals just want to coddle terrorists. This is more than just silly, it misses what’s supposed to be the point — acquiring valuable information. Put simply, we already know what works, and Bush’s “enhanced” techniques don’t.

[S]ome of the experts involved in the interrogation review, called “Educing Information,” say that during World War II, German and Japanese prisoners were effectively questioned without coercion.

“It far outclassed what we’ve done,” said Steven M. Kleinman, a former Air Force interrogator and trainer, who has studied the World War II program of interrogating Germans. The questioners at Fort Hunt, Va., “had graduate degrees in law and philosophy, spoke the language flawlessly,” and prepared for four to six hours for each hour of questioning, said Mr. Kleinman, who wrote two chapters for the December report.

Mr. Kleinman, who worked as an interrogator in Iraq in 2003, called the post-Sept. 11 efforts “amateurish” by comparison to the World War II program, with inexperienced interrogators who worked through interpreters and had little familiarity with the prisoners’ culture.

The Intelligence Science Board study has a chapter on the long history of police interrogations, which it suggests may contain lessons on eliciting accurate confessions. And Mr. Borum, the psychologist, said modern marketing may be a source of relevant insights into how to influence a prisoner’s willingness to provide information.

“We have a whole social science literature on persuasion,” Mr. Borum said. “It’s mostly on how to get a person to buy a certain brand of toothpaste. But it certainly could be useful in improving interrogation.”

Well, with this wealth of knowledge in improving interrogation methods without torture, surely the Bush administration would want to invest time and energy into the field of study, right? Not so much — “Robert F. Coulam, a research professor and attorney at Simmons College and a study participant, said that the government’s most vigorous work on interrogation to date has been in seeking legal justifications for harsh tactics. Even today, he said, ‘there’s nothing like the mobilization of effort and political energy that was put into relaxing the rules’ governing interrogation.”

I shudder to ask, given what I expect in response, but why on earth is this debate still ongoing? The very first hurdle for torture advocates is efficacy. Unable to clear it, the discussion effectively ends.

Except it doesn’t. They continue to point to fictional Jack Bauer scenarios, or engage in parsing the meaning of the word “torture,” or fall back on the demagoguery of insisting that real opponents of terrorism will do anything to protect Americans.

It’s a morally and intellectually bankrupt approach. Hilzoy explained this perfectly.

[Y]ou can tell who is serious and who is not by noticing who actually stops to think about whether torture is effective. People who don’t bother to ask that question are not serious about winning; they’re in love with a fantasy of themselves as the person who is tough enough to do all those dirty things that have to be done while other people just wring their hands and whimper.

If you’re serious about war, you should ask yourself, at every juncture, what will best achieve your objectives, rather than embracing some sort of Rambo fantasy.

Any questions?

I wonder how many of our torturers are non-Arab speaking?

  • The point is, however, that these buffons who play at the art of war—poultry pretending to be raptors, or “chickenhawks”—are not serious about war. They are serious about (1) profit, (2) satiating their miniscule machismo fantasies, and (3) making “the enemy” madder at us, therefore fighting us more, thus justifying the increased need to “fight them more over there so we don’t have to fight them here.”

  • Torture is wrong. It’s against the Constitution and its against the Geneva Conventions. It’s against the teachings of Christ and it’s against what you know in your own heart. Shame on anyone who attempts to argue in favor of torture.

  • why on earth is this debate still ongoing?

    because the Democrats are too wimpy to impeach a bunch of criminals who have admitted to breaking the law.

    I wish there was a way to impeach the Democratic leadership and replace them with people who will defend the constitution.

  • I wonder how many of our torturers are non-Arab speaking?

    Well, the torturer-in-chief speaks neither Arabic or English. I wonder how many of our torturers-on-the-ground fall in that category?

  • racerx: if the democrats don’t get their s**t together pretty soon and start acting like congressmen, don’t be surprised if there is another backlash next election season – angry voters encouraging democrats with cajones to challenge the wimpy dems in the primaries……..

  • When you get your info and worldview from TV, movies, comic books/graphic novels, you’re likely to assume pain is the only answer, Jack Bauer is just like you, Rush is right, and you say stupid things like the students killed at VA Tech were too weak to take down the shooter.

    By nature, aren’t torturers cowards? If so, how can you expect to get any useful information out of anyone if you concentrate on causing pain–and you can’t speak the language?

    And why learn Arabic when you’re too dumb to do so, or assume everyone else in the world speaks English? Or when the military discharges Arabic speakers for being gay?

  • The objective of these torturers (like their brothers in the SS and the KGB) as much to inspire terror and impose their will as it is to gain information.
    We are morphing into a brutal police state that proclaims to be spreading democracy and freedom as a pretext for world domination.

  • What we’re seeing here is a microcosm of the entire war.

    Effective interrogation requires personal intelligence, preparation, skill and thoughtfulness.

    None of which the Bush administration has, so it substitutes the raw force of the ignorant bully and calls it good.

    Same way it deals, or wants to deal, with any problem in the world. Screw diplomacy, if something is a problem just blow it the hell up.

    Totally insane, but that’s how they do it at the White House.

  • Just thinking of the Rambo movies. Remember when the torturers were the bad guys?

  • or in Star Wars when Darth Vader brought in the robot brimming with needles to get the princess to talk. (Our desert troops even dress like stormtroopers.) I wonder when Cheney’s concern for safey, heart condition and aversion to light will require him to wear a shaded black oxygen mask helment that wheezes?

  • The torture thing is all about appearances. The Repubs are scared of being called pussies by the sadistic right, otherwise known as their base. So they do what looks to be most satisfying for scared people bent on revenge.

    It’s no wonder that a politcal party who paraphrases their response to torture by invoking a TV show character is also the party that keeps looking to actors to be their next president.

    I strongly agree with Curmudgeon. Today’s Republicans have only one tool in their toolbox: hatred and violence and they use that in every situation where reason and diplomacy would normally be the preferred alternative.

  • I’ve always thought that, if any lessons about the efficacy of torture could be learnt from fiction, Dick Francis’ “Odds Against” should be the model. The hero (Sid Haley) is tortured to divulge the location of a packet of incriminating info. Withstands it just long enough to convince them that he’s “folded” under the onslaught and then sends them straight into ambush.

  • I shudder to ask, given what I expect in response, but why on earth is this debate still ongoing? The very first hurdle for torture advocates is efficacy.

    Since when is this administration worried about efficacy? They just like to take a hammer to EVERYTHING and not worry about whether it is the right tool for the job. Asshats…

  • Torture is not effective in any way other than to humiliate and inflict pain on the tortured. The tortured will eventually give up any fanciful story the torturers will swallow in order to end the ordeal. In my case it was a mixture of half truths and lies that I knew was plausible enough to satisfy them. I knew, however, that if I gave it to them too soon they wouldn’t take the bait; so out of self preservation I took their shit as long as I felt it would take far them to bite. And bite they did, for I was allowed to go. Desperate people are great con artists.

  • i type legal transcripts for a living, primarily massachusetts superior court. every time i transcribe the court’s instructions to the jury i have to bite back the rage — a big part of every set of jury instructions is an admonition that every defendant has the absolute right to have the Government prove its case against him/her beyond a reasonable doubt, and in cases where there is evidence of a defendant’s statements to police jurors are specifically and explicitly told that they may throw such statements out if they believe that they were coerced in any way.

    were that it were only so for everyone in actual fact.

  • well, that shudda been “would that it were so” but, hey, it’s been a long trying day.

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