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Russia, Georgia, and McCain’s reckless belligerence

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With the conflict between Russia and Georgia moving “toward full-scale war,” even those of us who follow the news closely might pause and think, “Now, what’s that conflict about again?” The NYT’s James Traub wrote a very helpful piece today offering plenty of background and history to explain the context for the violence, and why the parties have been moving towards this war in the North Caucasus for quite some time.

But given the U.S. presidential race, and the fact that this is a political site, I’d also note the significance of Barack Obama’s and John McCain’s reactions to the conflict, which actually tell us quite a bit about their respective approaches to foreign policy. Ben Smith published a solid report on this last night.

While Obama offered a response largely in line with statements issued by democratically elected world leaders, including President Bush, first calling on both sides to negotiate, John McCain took a remarkably — and uniquely — more aggressive stance, siding clearly with Georgia’s pro-Western leaders and placing the blame for the conflict entirely on Russia.

The abrupt crisis in an obscure hotspot had the features of the real foreign policy situations presidents face — not the clean hypotheticals of candidates’ white papers and debating points…. Both American candidates back Georgia’s sovereignty and its turn toward the West. But their first statements on the crisis revealed differences of substance and style.

Obama, calling for restraint and condemning the “outbreak of violence,” also criticized Russia for having “invaded Georgia’s sovereign” and having “encroached on Georgia’s sovereignty.” Obama’s line was largely consistent with that of the Bush White House, the European Union, NATO, and a series of European powers.

John McCain took a different line, which, as Smith noted, “put him more closely in line with the moral clarity and American exceptionalism projected by President Bush’s first term.”

A McCain adviser suggested that Obama’s statement constituted appeasement…. McCain’s statement was longer, more detailed and more confrontational.

“[T]he news reports indicate that Russian military forces crossed an internationally recognized border into the sovereign territory of Georgia. Russia should immediately and unconditionally cease its military operations and withdraw all forces from sovereign Georgian territory.

“The government of Georgia has called for a ceasefire and for a resumption of direct talks on South Ossetia with international mediators. The U.S. should immediately work with the EU and the OSCE to put diplomatic pressure on Russia to reverse this perilous course that it has chosen.”

John McCain’s top foreign policy adviser, Randy Scheunemann, defended McCain’s direct criticism of Russia in the early hours of the crisis.

“Sen. McCain is clearly willing to note who he thinks is the aggressor here,” he said, dismissing the notion that Georgia’s move into its renegade province had precipitated the crisis. “I don’t think you can excuse, defend, explain or make allowance for Russian behavior because of what is going on in Georgia.”

That Scheunemann just so happens to have been a well-paid lobbyist for the Georgian government might, just might, raise questions about a potential conflict here.

Mark Brzezinski, a former Clinton White House official and an informal adviser to Obama, added, “McCain took an inflexible approach to addressing this issue by focusing heavily on one side, without a pragmatic assessment of the situation. It’s both sides’ fault — both have been somewhat provocative with each other.”

Wait, would-be presidents should appreciate nuance when dealing with an international crisis? Credible candidates should be able to recognize gray areas in complex parts of Eastern Europe? Thoughtful would-be leaders need not to rush to view the world as a series of good guys and bad guys?

Ya don’t say.

Let’s be clear: if McCain the Candidate is a reliable indicator of what we can expect from McCain the President, the presumptive Republican nominee would apparently be anxious to exacerbate the burgeoning war, and antagonize Russia.

There’s a lot going on right now, but this is a very important development in the presidential campaign. Ben Smith characterized this as a “true ‘3 a.m. moment'” for the presidential candidates. And at this point, McCain is once again looking pretty scary.

Comments

  • The Answer is Orange

    says:

    So we should be able to find an identical statement by McCaniac re: Turkey when it crossed “an internationally recognized border into the sovereign territory of” Iraq.

    No wait, I guess it will depend on whether or not he’s got a staff member who gets checks from Turkey.

    BushCo. The Sequel.
    This time he’s older than dirt.

  • Rick

    says:

    Has the world gone mad? We are going to mess around and blow up the whole world soon. Guess I won’t have to worry about off shore drilling then.

  • slappy magoo

    says:

    McCain sure is a straight shooter, pardner. Now all we have to do is get him to not shoot so often OR so fast, and to be a little more thoughtful about the targets upon which he’s about to fire. THAT should be a piece of…a piece of…something…

  • Greg Worley

    says:

    Let’s see. Indifference pre-911 by Bushco to Al Qaeda in spite of repeated warnings. Dismantling of the State Department Middle East sectionsEtc. . Needless war in Iraq. Botched war in Afghanistan. A Homeland Security apparatus that is comic opera. Increased dependence on foreign oil. Massive U. S. debt in the hands of foreign countries who then use it to buy up U. S. assets, including armament manufacturers. Foreign policy disaster in Georgia-Russia conflict. ‘Splain me again how the GOP is the party of national security?

  • john

    says:

    Why doesn’t John “straightshooter” McCain shoot a bullet straight in his rotten Alzheimer brain?

  • Steve

    says:

    This is going to go far, far beyond a mere “border dispute.” I’ve seen images left-n-right the past two days of kids rolling towards the conflict on Russian transports and tanks, waving Soviet flags and touting Soviet army insignia on their field caps and equipment. Now, given that (a) Russia is too damned wealthy with all their exploited oil and gas reserves to use the “we’re-too-poor-for-new-uniforms” excuse, and (b) the “power behind the Kremlin” is one “Vlad” Putin (a.k.a., “Mr. KGB”), it’s starting to look like the whole “Reagan beat the USSR” theme that the GOP and their neocon ilk has been marching out for the past quarter-century was just a hyperinflated version of Neville Chamberlain, waving a piece of paper and declaring “peace in our time.”

    Russia won’t have to back off. Who’s going to stop them—Europe, with their mortal dependence on Russia’s vast reserves of oil and LNG, or NATO, with its diminished peace-time strength? This is almost identical to the gambit Hitler played when he marched into Poland in 1939.

    And there’s nothing anyone can do to stop it. Russia will take South Ossetia, hands down. They’ve already bombed the city of Gori—repeatedly—which is beyond the Ossetian frontier with Georgia proper. I’m expecting them to take out the petro-pipelines that run through Georgia towards the West by mid-week—because militarily, it’s the thing to do.

    It’s all well and god to discuss the differences between Obama and McCain as to how they’ve reacted to the conflict, but this has already gone beyond political discussions, and needs to be addressed in the greater venue of oil dependence. Bush’s bellicose bumbling of the Iran issue gave us oil at $147.00 a barrel last month. What do you suppose this is going to do to the price of your gasoline, not to mention the global economies that are so fragile when it comes to the price of that oil?

    Nothing—because Bush looked into the eyes of a gangster who controls one of the biggest military machines on the planet, saw his soul, and didn’t do a damned freaking thing.

    Because Russia—with its newfound petrowealth, a mind-numbing military capability, and a state-controlled corporate-industrial behemoth, has become the 21st-century model of fascism.

    And Bush likes that kind of stuff. It’s a family trait, y’know….

  • Stevio

    says:

    Lucretia Borgia, Lucretia Borgia, Lucretia Borgia, Georgia.

    McAce’s new song (sung to the Barbra Ann lyric of the Beach Boys) he’s been signing over the past few days.

    Either this guys got to get a new tune or maybe he should start taking “doggie downers”. The world isn’t ready for his old wrinkled fingers to be placed too close to the “button”. Obliterate first, ask questions later…

  • jimludwig

    says:

    Aside from the limitations of McCain’s grasp of the situation, we should note the irony of American leaders righteously condemning senseless invasions of other countries, no? As if we had a moral leg to stand on.

    Further, after McCain’s rhetoric, what would he propose to do? The US military is already over-utilized trying to keep up with such ambitious talk. Shall we send the troops from Iraq over to Georgia/Russia?

    It would be cartoonlike if it were not rather serious….

  • z

    says:

    And you Americans wonder why we (the rest of the free world) want Obama to be POTUS. It has shit all to do with his domestic policies and rather the US President’s ability to fuck up global affairs is the SOLE reason why we are all crossing our fingers hoping the someone with the requisite temperament for the most important leadership positions in world politics. From what we’ve seen and heard the Obaam fellow is that person.

    Unfortunately McCain’s ramblings this weekend make us really scared for the following reasons: (a) the reason why the Euro nations are cautious in their comments about Russia is that it is a nuclear power which controls the continent’s energy needs; Georgia started this latest episode of aggration, they are not necessarily the good guys in this matter, Russia being an ally of S.O had to respond and it did accordingly.For Georgia to cry foul now is a bit hypocritical, although that does not necessarily justify all of Russia’s recent conduct, hence the need for mediation in this crisis.

    Someone has obviously over estimated the US’s military strength vis a’ vis Russia. Russia is probably in a better position to fight the US right now considering that its military has not been engaged TWO CONTINUOS WARS in the last TEN years.

    So unless a would-be president McCain just wants to bark at ‘bad guys’ and issue idle threats thereby further weaking the US’s persived strenght it would not be a good idea to antagonise Russia. Imagine what another big war would do to the global economy. Furthermore,considering that the US hates defeat as much as it likes wars I can see a war where a full scale nuclear offensive being unleashed whereby no one wins in the greater skim of things.

    Anyways that’s my twenty cents.

  • Mark

    says:

    Lets be clear here. Obama’s statements was almost a copy and paste of Bush’s statement. He might have rearranged a word or two but thats it. McCain went on record with an original statement but it echoed what many of our European allies are saying. That Russia overstepped, used too much force and needed to pull back. They also said that Russia could no longer be an impartial mediator for peace keeping. You now have State and The Whitehouse saying it was a disproportionate use of force.

    On a side note Russia really wasn’t doing peace keeping duties anyways. They supported the separatists and some could see them trying to annex South Ossetia.

  • invisible_hand

    says:

    the fact is that georgia has already lost. let’s be serious here (check baloon-juice for a good sum-up). so, the only proper diplomatic and intelligently political thing to do is to try to restrain russia, because ossetia could end up occupied and annexed, etc. this is what obama (and others including bush!) did.
    mccain, however, HATES russia, because he still thinks it’s the cold war. he is blindly and loudly calling for georgia to fight back, even though it’s impossible. argh. this is ridiculous.

  • McDumbDumb

    says:

    McCain is dangerous to the US and is not qualified to be President. Look at record closely and you will see he hasn’t accomplished shit. He is the true empty hyped up suit celebrity. Obama show the right restraint and temperament in this situation. I want Obama.

  • Miles Long

    says:

    Mark said: “…overstepped, used too much force and needed to pull back.” “…could no longer be an impartial mediator for peace keeping.”, and my favorite, “…it was a disproportionate use of force.” Taken out of context Mark could be writing about either Putin or Bush.

    Let’s face it, if we get McSame we get 4 more years of the same failed policies that (partially) caused skyrocketing oil prices, decreased stability in an already fragile area and loss of international credibility. Barrack might be a closet socialist but at this point that’s little to worry about when weighed against other factors. It’s time for more clear-headed thinking in Washington.

  • Tom Cleaver

    says:

    Of course McCain could fight a war. He’d just take the troops from…. er…. uh….

    This whole thing isa pretty big deal, because of the US can’t defend one of its imperial clients, the other imperial clients (er, “allies”) will see that and start shifiting with the winds.

    It would be a really good thing to hear that al least one of these duys had read Thudydides’ history of the Peloponnesian Wars in which defeated Sparta destroyed imperial Athens. I’m sure it wouldn’t be McCain, since Republicans don’t read books full of polysyllabic words.

  • Mary Gillespie

    says:

    Some of the pundits are spot on – that is those who recognize that Senator McCain’s response is the tired old war murmuring. Senator Obama’s response is the measured response of a leader who sees a place in the world for America that is not “the hammer” or worse, imperialism. This is the change many American people want and many more need.

  • Dale

    says:

    The Rednecks are all excited and digging up their automatic rifles, because they heard there was a war on Caucasians in Georgia.

  • Subrotine

    says:

    The U.S. has been pushing confrontation with Russia ever since bush-the-moron took office. The bush policy of encircling Russia with anti missile shields in the Czech Republic, American Missile silos in Poland, and the offer of military and economic aid to Eastern Europe and former Soviet regions to secure energy routes and access to resources without regard to geo-political implications is in full view in Georgia.

    Russia had far more provocation in entering Georgia than the U.S. had in invading Iraq. Georgia, which broke away from the Soviet Union for independence, began genocide on its own people who voted for the same choice. Didn’t America have Saddam hanged for the same thing? And the U.S. is the last country which should now be calling Russia “invaders” and making noise about refugees, innocent civilians dying in conflict, and excessive force (is that like “Shock and Awe?”). Where was the outrage from the U.S. when Turkey crossed into Iraq to take on the Kurds?

    America…..you reap what you sow.

  • misanthropicus

    says:

    Since the times of John Reed you left creeps (& useful idiots) have unfailingly did the choir work for the most aggressive country and nation in the world, Russia, then Soviet Union, now back Russia.
    Lenin was Ok to expand the borders of the Russian empire; Stalin was fine to murder zillions of people in order to instaurate the proletariat dictatorship; the sinister role of the commies in that murderous farce that the Spanish cilvil war was, was glossed over (honor to Dos Pasos and shame to Hemingway); the Hungarian uprising and the invasion of Chechoslovakia were fully justifiable, so on and so forth, up the present day and the conflict of Georgia.
    Putin and his crew don’t give a damn on those Ossetians – in the old tzarist tradition (dilligently followed by commies & neo commies) the area has been ethnically booby-trapped for Russia to have sway over its neighbors. You lefties, don’t seem to remember Moldova/Transnistria, Crimea, Ukraine or the Baltic countries situations
    The usual cruelty and arrogance from the Russian side, as usually complemented by the American left’s infamy – Lilian Hellman, Duggan, Hiss, Duranty and the rest of the liberal/progressive crew – that’s you.
    As far as McCain – check with Alinsky, Frank and Glibama’s other communistr mentors to see what would he really do if he had the opportunity to support his Komintern, inspiring friends.

  • Former Dan

    says:

    @23,

    Then what do you suggest the US do? Invade Russia? With what divisions? With what air force? Navy? Where are you going to get these mystery experienced trained troops? Can’t just dig’em out from the RISK game box now can we. Can’t just move troops, planes and ships from the ME to the Kola Peninsula in a flash.

    The really shitty thing about Munich is that Neville Chamberlain (although it was a poor choice of words) made the least shit choice of a bunch of really shitty possible choices. The UK and France weren’t ready for war at all in 1938 and had no money where as Germany had a two year head start on their rearmament program.

    Considering that it was your stupid leadershit that invaded a nation that did not attack the US on Sept 11, 2001 and pretty much ground down the combat capabilities of the once most powerful military in the world, I suggest that you pick up a rifle and get a plane to Georgia the nation and not the state and show the rest of us pitiful fools how to fight.

  • Ken

    says:

    let me see: obama has since released a statement, much in line with what McCain said earlier. Does that mean Obama agrees with McCain?

  • Vlad

    says:

    I’d like to respond to Steve (9) and some other American warmongers here. Here’s a link to a popular Russian newspaper (Outlook – Vzglyad) http://www.vz.ru/news/2008/8/10/195089.html that says that Russian forces captured some American mercenaries in South Ossetia.

    http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vz.ru%2Fnews%2F2008%2F8%2F10%2F195089.html&sl=ru&tl=en&hl=EN&ie=UTF-8

    Those Americans were fighting on the Georgia side against the civil population of Ossetia and Russian peacekeepers. Also, some bodies were recovered on the site in South Ossetia that may belong to Americans.

    http://osinform.ru/news/7704-piloty-gruzinskikh-bombardirovshhikov.html

    Being a Russian, I’m indifferent at this point who your president is: whether it’s Obama or McCain. I believe once again that we are at war. I think that Russia should re-establish nuclear sites in Cuba.

  • TCG

    says:

    The thing about McCain, everyone needs to remember, is that when he looks at Putin, he see the Kaiser.

    When he looks at Russia, McCain sees Germany circa 1914.

    It is his world view.

  • Steve

    says:

    It is with an extreme sense of hilarity that I note the above generic misanthropod’s diatribe against the Left, when it was his glorious leader’s vision of Putin that further encouraged the last bipedal vestiges of the USSR to resurrect the ideals of Soviet “tyrannocracy.”

    It becomes even funnier when I sit back and visit the myriad times when the Reich Right invested huge sums of time, money, and sweat into warning America about the inherently-fatal evils of South Park (an animated cartoon), Tinky Winky (a Teletubby with an intentionally-questionable IQ), and Habeas Corpus (a rather smallish thing most commonly referred to as a Constitutional Right), while propagating the notion that Vlad Putin was “a friend of America” in equal proportion to the Big Bad Wolf being the friend of a few fairy-tale piggies with a penchant for wanting to build things.

    It even approaches the irresistible desire to fall on the floor and laugh to the point of incoherent unconsciousness when I look back at the “conservatives” who supposedly fought the Red Menace—especially when I note with unbridled candor that those who “fought” the most, profited the most. In this instance, I further note that the word “fought” is somewhat set aside, in that the type of fighting I refer to is the armchair variety, most notably perfected by the many denizens of the Bush administration and the Republican Party who, for any one of many questionable reasons, never actually served in combat—with a good many never having worn the uniform at all, thus pointing to the one fundamental reason as to why the Bushylvanians won’t re-enact a draft to rebuild America’s military:

    They might accidentally draft some of their own kind….

  • Steve

    says:

    Oooh—vlad plays the scary-thing card. Dead black people in South Ossetia!

    And here I thought that all pillow-case-wearing Klanners were on this side of the Atlantic.

    Oh, and vladdie? Maybe you can explain all the Russian warships parked off the Georgian coast. Just a simple, pre-planned exercise—or the makings of a large-scale anphibious operation?

    Because it seems rather odd for Putin to have steamed that much hardware, such a distance, in so short a time….

  • Jim Zackey

    says:

    I hope advisors to both Presidential candidates will take account of the Russian perspective such as the statement made by its UN envoy Vitaly Churkin
    to a UN Security Council meeting. Here are a few points to note:

    Anatoly Nogovitsyn, Russian deputy chief of the General Staff hopes Tblisi’s advance will allow Russia to restore the balance in the region, which was rocked by a militarization up to combat level in the Georgian forces’ bid to serve as NATO’s frontline.

    An observation which Nogovitsyn said was reinforced by a multifold rise in
    weapon supplies to Georgia that escalated the tensions.
    “This posed a challenge as to what extent the testing of its limits and capabilities could Russia stomach.”

    It is the brinkmanship on the borders that enticed Georgia into the Russian bear trap. Those who thought that Russia will meekly give up South Ossetia may now see how well prepared is Moscow to use this crisis to rectify EU and NATO policy in the region, writes Allgemeine Zeitung.

    Dmitiry Medvedev will mobilize Russian forces to teach lessons to the Georgians who have recklessly walked into the trap, adds the German Daily from Mainz:

    “This will allow Russia shoot two rabbits with one fire-On one hand, portraying Georgia as the aggressor side will hinder Tblisi’s bid to join NATO. On the other hand, Kremlin is demonstrating to what level can things escalate, notes Allgemeine Zeitung. In its own backyard Russia will press on for outcome on its own terms.

  • Steve

    says:

    Meet the “flag” of the Russian naval force currently stationed off the Georgian coast:

    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72732

    Meet the Moskva, equipped with 16 SS-N-12 “Sandbox” anti-ship missiles. Range 550 kilometers, capable of carrying 350kT nuclear warheads (current intel says she’s not carrying these—but that would be the same intel folks who brought us Saddam’s yellowcake escapades and Bush’s “mission accomplished”). Her sailor complement (click the photo) are wearing the emblem of the old Soviet Navy (note the nice little red star in the badging), and the ship still flies the blue-cross-on-red-field Soviet battle-flag, instead of the blue-on-white Russian naval pennant. Mockva is still dressed out with her red stars on her primary weapons systems and forepeak. As with all ships in the Slava class, Mockba cannot reload her missile tubes at sea; she’s a hit-n-run weapon, or a one-way-tripper (expendable).

    In Bush41-Speak, this would translate to “line in the sand….”

  • Bruno

    says:

    Hmmm… Here’s a thought…

    Now that Blackwater has been practicing in Iraq for so many years, do you think they’re seasoned enough to counter the Russians? I’m sure that the Georgian government has plenty of oil money to hire Blackwater and/or any other mercenary outfit.

    Halliburton… Do you think they already have a contingency plan to get in there as soon as it starts calming down some.

    Bechtel? and what about KBR? There are so many Bush cronies to be ‘helped’ … I mean, true patriots who are willing to sacrifice (our tax dollars) to stick our (Bush Administration) noses into someone else’s business (again)

  • Averyfine thing

    says:

    Looks like Obama has made a fool of you again.
    He has now flip-flopped and issued a statement that just mimics what McCain said yesterday. The statement you wrongly criticized.
    Obviously he disagreed with you guys and recognized that MCCain had taken the right position.
    Of course Obama just again highlighted that he has no foreign policy experience as it takes him two days to realize he needed to follow MCCain on this issue since he had no ideas of his own.
    But he did manage to show the inanity of Steve’s slavering fanboy blather.

  • Bruno

    says:

    Thank you Averyfine thing for clarifying things for us. Now go collect your buttons.

    How much more drivel do you have to spout before you can sit on McCain’s lap on his bus?

  • Taritac

    says:

    It’s moments like these that make me scared, angry, and mostly, sad, at the joke the United States has become diplomatically, militarily, economically, ethically, and morally. Russia can roll across Europe and Asia and there is fuck-all anyone can do about it, least of all us, as we wallow in the Iraq/Afghanistan morass. We allowed a BUFFOON to ascend to the presidency TWICE, and we are dangerously close to doing it again. McCain’s hot-headedness and immaturity will do little but get us into more of the same.

  • Steve

    says:

    On August 10th, 2008 at 2:23 pm, Averyfine thing said: “stuff.”

    The last time McCain took the “right” position was in front of a NVA antiaircraft battery. Unfortunately for America, the gun crew was having an off day. A REALLY off day.

    Here’s a question: How (according to McCain’s “most excellent position”) is NATO supposed to analyze this thing? Russia already has South Ossetia; they’ve got a Black Sea flotilla off Georgia’s coast in close proximity to another “pro-Moscow breakaway region,” and the reports enclosed in the “toward full scale war” link in the top of this thread show massed columns moving southward to Gori—a city in central Georgia.

    In short: Russia has actually invaded Georgia, a US ally, and nobody’s going to do a thing about it. You want to mouth off about Obama? Where is your precious Bush-wah-zee on this—drinking heavily again?

    Hey, ‘thing—maybe you can give us all a hint as to how “presumptive nominee McCain” is going to make the Russians feel sorry for what they did, and go home to Russia. Maybe he’ll tell them to “cut out the shit.” Maybe he’ll call them names. Maybe he can mock them into submission, or throw cans of Budweiser at them, or cheat them out of their money in a banking scandal. Oh, that’ll work really well!

    If Russia pushes all the way into Gori—which at this rate, it looks like a foregone conclusion, rather than a mere tactical premise—and we add into the matrix the strategic positioning of a large naval contingent just off the Georgian coast to the south—I’m guessing that Russia’s going to cut Georgia clean in half, and take possession of some pipelines….

  • JS

    says:

    Perhaps someone should ask Senator McCain if he is elected president, will he go to war with Russia to free the people of Georgia (even those who do not want to be freed)

  • Brian Dell

    says:

    Meanwhile, the person TIME calls Obama’s “top foreign policy advisor”, Tony Lake, says that the evidence that Alger Hiss was a spy for Stalin is “inconclusive”. Never mind the the fact the the evidence is overwhelming and, in fact, there is not one single professional US cold war historian who has expressed such doubts.

    Such is life in Obama’s foreign policy fantasy world, I suppose.

  • Влад

    says:

    For Steve, again – this is not a scary card or lies at CNN. Hear what a US citizen has to say about this. Effectively, the US helps a genocide once again (shall we be surprised?). But again. I’m not a Serb with little to fight. I’m a RUSSIAN. Понятно, долбоеб пиндосовский?

    “American says U.S. and Georgia to answer for violence”
    ==========================================

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRl3qArJO-o

  • Peter

    says:

    It was the 3:00 a.m. call and Obama tried to punt it to the U.N. before his policy advisors had time to google “Georgia” and clue him into which side he should be on. You better update your post when you get back from the club, Obama’s changed his position, and you want to be sure to toe-the-line.

  • RICHARD JAGIELSKI

    says:

    FIRST, WE HAD MUCH LESS BASIS TO INVADE THE SOVIERGN NATION OF IRAQ, SECOND, WHY DO PEOPLE FORGET WHERE MCCAIN COMES FROM? HIS GRANDFATHER CRIED THE DAY THE SURRENDER OF JAPAN WAS SIGNED, AND WONDERED OUT LOUD WHAT HE COULD POSSIBLY DO WITHOUT A WAR. PEOPLE SHOULD REMEMBER WHAT JOHN MCCAIN SAYS, LIKE: WE WILL STAY IN IRAQ EVEN 100 YEARS, I KNOW HOW TO WIN WARS, WE WILL HAVE MANY WARS IN THE FUTURE.

    HE BELEIVES WHAT HE SAYS, SHOULDN”T WE???

  • Bruno

    says:

    RICHARD JAGIELSKI You’re preaching to the choir. I don’t think you’re crazy, but I suggest you turn off your “all caps” setting on your keyboard.

    More people will take you serious.

  • Bruno

    says:

    peter @ 43 said:

    It was the 3:00 a.m. call and Obama tried to punt it to the U.N. before his policy advisors had time to google “Georgia” and clue him into which side he should be on

    Can you explain McCain’s 3:00AM moment to us? I have to give it to McCain, that there is a chance that he knew ‘where’ Georgia is on the map. Not because he actually cares, but because he has advisers who lobbied for Georgia, and McCain has been ‘happy’ with them for a while.

    However. McCain’s first response was to do his reflexive “bomb – bomb – bomb Iran Russia. After all, he has shown that he doesn’t like Russia (wanting to kick them outof the G8) The questions and analysis can wait until he’s awake and has had some breakfast.

    McCain has proven now that he’s a “Shoot first, ask questions later” type a guy. Something we can not afford to have in the White House.

  • Peter

    says:

    as opposed to an ask questions, ask questions, ask questions, ask questions, ask questions, take a poll, ask questions, ask questions, ask some more questions, kind of guy.

    The only thing that got shot was Obama’s foot, by him.

  • gary

    says:

    yeehaw…,we goin to war with those damn ruskies..since the soviet collapse and bushs selection we have oh so cleverly been telling all the breakaway “republics”to stand up to evil mother russia….imagine the russians giving all kind of military aid to mexico and pushing them to take back the millions of square miles we stole from them (take texas please!!!!)..then those border militia men would really have something to worry about

  • Bruno

    says:

    peter…. that’s the spirit. Dodge a legitimate question by blabbering some more idiotic ‘stuff’

    Go collect your tokens now, you can ‘almost’ sit on McCain’s lap. Are you happy?

  • BringbackGorbi

    says:

    People said Reagan was wrong in confronting the Soviets head on by among other
    things starting SDI and installing Persing II missiles in Europe. The only thing
    the Russians understand is force (or the willingness to use it).
    After Kennedy was elected POTUS, Kruschev made the “in your face” move
    of installing nuclear tipped missiles in Cuba. Kennedy, to his credit put our
    troops on alert and put a Naval blockade around the island. The Soviet leader
    sensing that Mr. Kennedy was willing to go to the brink of Nuclear war by standing on principles, backed down. The Russians aren’t crazy. If they think you’re serious
    they will back down(at least historically this has been the case). They will test
    Mr. Obama(and in fact may already be doing so).

  • peter

    says:

    Bruno.

    obama’s consistent failure to exercise his superior judgment as advertised is the issue.

    p.s. you sound gay and have an unfortunate name.

    Peter

  • James Joy

    says:

    From what I have heard, read etc. it sounds as if Georgia did the same thing in South Ossetia that Russia has been doing in Chechnya. They went in to reestablish their soveriegnty over their own territory. Russia had granted citizenship to many of the inhabitants of the area and then said because you are now bombing or going to war with our people we have the right to invade you. Georgia made a bad mistake in waving a red flag at the bull Russia, which it was trying to get them to do by constantly provoking the confrontation, but that did not give Russia the right to invade. It sounds like McCain reacted before getting all of the information and Obama decided to do what he has said he would do act in conference with our allies. This may not always work out well because NATO has shown in Afghanistan and in many other areas to be a paper tiger.

    The danger is that Russia has now decided the same and has decided like Hitler to challenge it and to watch and see what the world will do. I am most afraid of what will happen next if the world does not react in a way that lets Russia know that it can’t get away with this. But we also need to let Georgia and other countries know that they can’t wave red flags at bulls and then expect us or NATO to rush in and save them.

  • Steve

    says:

    I’m a RUSSIAN.
    **********************************Влад

    After the atrocities of the purges, the labor camps, the gulags, the dungeon executions, the overthrow of basic human rights—I’m supposed to have respect for you being a Russian? Please—Russia makes the Bush administration look like a couple of drunken, overweight Cossacks on the snow-driven plains of Siberia. Russia’s been providing support to Ossetian insurgents for years now; it was one of Putin’s favorite past-times. So—the Mockba was all dressed up and ready to go to a fight in less than 36 hours—steaming time and all. All of the ancillary vessels in her squadron were ready to go as well—fuel bunkers topped off, galleys victualed, all hands aboard, magazines loaded to the gills, and all 16 of her “Sandboxes” loaded and ready to go—not to mention secondary cruise missiles, SAMs, main and secondary gun emplacement ordnance, antisubmarine mines, and torpedoes. All that prep—and they still can’t bother to outfit her with a blue-on-white Russian naval pennant?

    By the way, I’ve seen a few pics of her when she was still the Slava—prototype to her class of cruiser. The hatches on those SS-N-12s didn’t have red stars on them in ’87 when she was sailing out of Severomorsk, or in ’05, when she had her refit (courtesy of the city of Moscow, after which she is now named).

    Sounds like a lot of people are playing “Sovietski”….da?

  • BringbackGorbi

    says:

    Georgia has virtually nothing in terms of an air force and a minimally equipped
    army and navy (by modern standards). In fact If Georgia were to go up against
    just the American state of Georgia alone it would face much much greater numbers of the latest fighter planes (three Air Force bases alone with numerous air wings)and at least an equal number of troops in addition to National Guard
    units(some of them armored) all equipped with large numbers of
    modern armaments and extensive night fighting capability. So what is Russua
    really proving here? The one question is how Russia was able to bring so
    mant forces so quickly. It takes time to put everything together.

  • Ken

    says:

    John “Elmer Fudd” McCain couldn’t do anything about Russia if he wanted to. I guess he forgot he promoted a war that never should have happened and as a result we’re over extended in Iraq and Afghanistan. We don’t have enough reserves to repell anything anywhere, and the world is watching. What’s even worse for me is my Son is stuck right in the middle of it in Baghdad Iraq. OBAMA ’08

  • peter

    says:

    Ken.

    Obama hates your son. Unless by “stuck in the middle of it in Baghdad” you mean he’s a jihadist, then Obama likes him.

    Peter.

  • Ken

    says:

    Peter,

    I really feel sorry for people you. It’s because of people like you that I don’t feel this country is worth fighting for. I’ll believe what ever I wish. I don’t believe Obama or McCain hate anyone, but I do question McCain’s judgement which is nothing more than grand standing in a politically charged atmosphere. As for Obama hating the troops, he was wlecomed quite well by the troops in Iraq. Much better than the cold shoulder the troops gave McCain the last time he was there. Those aren’t my words, those are the troops.

  • James Joy

    says:

    Peter,

    Obama’s superior judgement is shown in that he has taken time to sit down and consult with others before shooting off his mouth. I guess coming from Arizona where people are still allowed to walk down the streets with guns on their hips that John McCain still believes that the world is tombstone and that he who draws first wins.

    Right now we are in a mess in Iraq, have alienated the world to us because for the past eight years we have people in leadership who thought that America had all the answers and that we were going to do it all our way. I don’t think it has worked out to well. And I don’t think we need four more years of the same mentality.

    I am also afraid of what this says about someone reacting to emergencies. Do they take the time to consult with others, in our government, with our allies to put together a concerted response or are we going to continue to just keep on trying to do it all on our own.

    I also wonder how McCain plans to do this without raising taxes. Oh I forgot money spent on wars don’t count against the deficit.

  • Mike S

    says:

    Russia is a great power, using its military power to consolidate its sphere of influence. It is nasty and ugly, but there is not much the West can do at this point, other than protest loudly. We need a realist President who understands the world as it is, while trying to push towards a better one–in the American tradition. War should always be a last resort.

  • peter

    says:

    Mike,

    You make zero sense. First, you say that Russia waging war is the act of a great country and inevitable, and then you say that war should always be a last resort.

    Peter.

  • peter

    says:

    James. He didnt sit down and consult with anyone. Thats part of the problem. He just issued a statement perfectly illustrating his lack of understanding and inability to lead. The same moral equivalence, unwillingness to confront an agressor, U.N., one-world bullshit.

  • Bruno

    says:

    peter @ 52

    Your name is actually appropriate. I suspect that they used you when they came up with the Peter Principle I’m not going to explain it to you. Ask someone to look it up on the tubes, or maybe McCain can use “the google”

    You still haven’t answered the original question. However I have to give it to you; that you are doing the best you can – as a republican sycophant – in copying your idol McCain. McCain talks a lot more about what Obama does and doesn’t do, than what he himself would actually do.

    It’s obviously no different in your universe. No substance, but attacking what Obama does or does not do. Keep up the good work, the more time you spend talking about Obama, the less people will know about McCain.

    Most of what McCain and people like you have been saying about Obama are mostly lies. By the time September / October / November comes around, ordinary people will be tired of listening to McCain and people like you, knowing that you’d never know whether you’re saying something truthful or just another blatant lie.

    At that time Obama, who hasn’t had to resort to lying to get his point across, could actually say that McCain wears girl panties to bed, and most people would probably believe him, because he hasn’t had to stoop to the ridiculous stupidity level McCain has been wallowing in lately.

    Of course Obama wouldn’t say such things, because we all know that McCain wears ‘depends’ to bed, and it is not nice to make fun of senile people who lost bladder control. BUT Obama will be talking about his policies and people will actually be listening, and not have to worry about whether he’s lying or not.

    Sure people like yourself, wouldn’t believe Obama, even if he said that the Earth revolves around the Sun instead of the other way around.

    Oh, about my name… My parents gave me that name, and it actually is rather common in Germany and Italy. I’m one of those ‘foreigners’ you probably have something against. The difference between me and you is probably that I chose to become an American citizen, and that you were merely born here and take your freedoms for granted.

  • peter

    says:

    Dear Bruno,

    The only thing people are getting tired of is hearing kool-aid drinkers like you talk about how great Obama is, or make old people jokes about McCain. Please go back to Germanland and kill your parents for giving you such a stupid name.

    Peter.

  • slick

    says:

    First of all, who is Steve Benin. What is scary is to have a Junior Senator who probably never heard of Georgia before this week. John McCain’s judgement was right on once again. He can see through Putin and diplomatic talks will not work with such a man. John McCain is a realist. Obama is a dreamer, which is fine, but not when you want to be President of this country. At 3AM, when Georgia calls, I want John McCain to answer that phone. EXPERIENCE COUNTS.

  • James Joy

    says:

    Peter,

    You need to get your facts straight. McCain contacted the president of Georgia, and White House National Security Advisor Stephen Hadley. Obama contacted White House National Security Advisor Stephen Hadley, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, and his own foreign policy advisors, before making the following statement.

    “I strongly condemn the outbreak of violence in Georgia, and urge an immediate end to armed conflict. Now is the time for Georgia and Russia to show restraint, and to avoid an escalation to full scale war. Georgia’s territorial integrity must be respected. All sides should enter into direct talks on behalf of stability in Georgia, and the United States, the United Nations Security Council, and the international community should fully support a peaceful resolution to this crisis.”

    then today after it became obvious that Russia had no intention of stopping even after Georgia withdrew from its own territory. He went further and made the following statement.

    “I condemn Russia’s aggressive actions and reiterate my call for an immediate ceasefire… Russia must stop its bombing campaign, cease flights of Russian aircraft in Georgian airspace, and withdraw its ground forces from Georgia.”

    Now this does sound a lot like what McCain said the first day, but the difference is that it was said after Georgia had stopped and Russia continued its aggressive mood and it is again a call for a ceasefire on both sides.

    But again Obama did talk not only to his own people but also to those who would have the most intelligence information in the present situation in the White House. And we need to remember no matter what we feel about the present administration they are the only ones who have the ability to act and anything that the candidates have to say should take that into account and should not pressure us into another war all by ourselves. But we need to look at how they gather information, who they talk to and how they react and what they say after they get this information.

  • Влад

    says:

    to 30 – Stevie, it only has to do with the guy’s passport, not what race he is, naturaly African Americans were easier identifiable, because the have no fucking business there. That mercenary who was captured in South Ossetia is a US citizen. Some dead US mercenaries were found in among the dead Georgian troops who attempted an assault on the city Tshinval, killing civil population and yes, Russian citizens.

    I’d be more than glad if more Americans stop hiding in Georgia and get out for Russian planes to annihilate them. In fact why wouldn’t you get your fat fucking American ass and get there? I’d also welcome some sort of NATO troops the the region so that Russia can practice a little aiming techniques. The fact is, you have nothing in the region. You are a stupid fucking American duck. So shut the fuck up, fat bastard.

  • Bruno

    says:

    ‘dear’ peter answering your post @ 66

    I’m not from ‘Germanland’ as you call it. I’m pretty sure it’s called Germany, or Deutschland, if you were to be able to speak their language. I’m not assuming that you’re Russian, just because Peter is rather common in that area.

    You should show some respect for other people’s parents, especially since my parents didn’t do anything to you. My parents don’t even speak English; so I don’t have to worry about the drivel coming from you offending them. It seems like your parents may have given up trying to teach you some manners… I feel sorry for your parents and the amount of time they spent on you to no avail.

    When all you’ve got left is attacking people for the name they have, or their parents, or any other personal attack, without actually offering any substantive information to the debate, you obviously have already lost.

    As mentioned in previous posts, by several Carpetbagger members, Obama did do what any sane person would do in regards to finding out the latest information. What did McCain do? Call the President of Georgia, which on the surface sounds like a pretty good idea, until you realize McCain’s handlers are/were in that governments pockets. Seems to me that McCain is doing a quid pro quo, and since McCain doesn’t like Russia to begin with, what better way than to shoot your mouth first, because Russia is the evil empire, regardless of the conditions on the ground.

    Sounds a lot like the simplistic reasonings from Reagan, Cheney, neo-cons, and the like.

    No need to respond to my post, unless you’re going to offer some substance, besides personally attacking other members on the Carpetbagger community.

  • libra

    says:

    Brian Dell, @39,

    Unfortunately, anything Lech “the Duck” says on behalf of Poland has to be taken with a peck (not just a grain) of salt, even when he’s right. Poland managed to kick his — equally corrupted — twin’s ass out of the prime minister’s seat and can’t wait to see this one buried, too, when his term expires. Hopefully, he and his BB Bush will not manage to install the silos before he goes.
    _______________________________

    Vlad, @42,
    No, we do *not* understand; our basic dictionaries tend to omit certain words and leave them in the gutter, where they belong.

    Oh. I see, from your posting @69, that your *English* is equally limited (to 4th grade boys locker room)
    _______________________________

    p.s. you sound gay and have an unfortunate name. — peter, @52, speaking to Bruno

    Oh my… Talk about pot and kettle… With your own “handle” (“rock” for brains and “prick” for character), you *really* should stay away from questioning other people’s names.
    _________________________________

    Whoever it was up-thread saying that Russia would invade Gori; it already has. After bombing the hell out of it, Russia has now followed with ground troops.

    Oh, and US is flying the 2000 Georgian troops back home from Iraq.

  • Влад

    says:

    Yup, Russia invaded Gori and will take over the whole Georgia now, until Saakashvili hangs on the tree, together with his American advisors. Rightfully so.

    I’ve heard Georgian moms hide their sons now from the Georgian army conscription in the nearby villages, because they don’t want their kids to die for an American dictator. Most of them are not pseudo patriotic idiots like yourself, and because 64% of Georgians speak Russian natively, have Russian relatives and hate current puppet regime and NATO more than Saakashvili wants you to believe. Defections are wide spread. Some change sides and start shooting their American or NATO instructors.

    Also those Georgians who had illusions about American help understand now that the the US doesn’t fight real wars, except offering Jeffersonian speeches. I hope it’s understood now in the world that being a friend with America is not only disgusting because of civilian casualties and potential war crimes that may inflict, but also pretty dumb stupid.

  • Gene

    says:

    18,000 against 570,000 is pretty good odds for starting a fight using a pretense of Peace Keepers. 70,000 out of 3 million decide they prefer to be Russian citizens instead of Georgian citizens and Russia gives them citizenship immediately. They refuse to obey the laws of Georgia or leave the country. They have men running around shooting at the Georgian police and military members. Something is certainly wrong with this picture. This is an internal civilian problem to be worked out and is certainly not the cause for the overwhelming might of the Russian military to be involved.

    Looks like Russia set this up to get back at Georgia for trying to get into the EU and NATO.

  • Fahrenheit 451

    says:

    America once again caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. Israel also is not doing too well here. Both complicit in popping the “Bear” in the nose…never a good idea! (as stated by a BBC reporter) Putin will have none of it and must have been waiting for a chance to “get” America; well he’s done it! And America is the impotent, hegemonic, inclined asshole caught with it’s political pants at it’s ankles! The neo-cons are just too stupid to live! They just never learn!

  • Fahrenheit 451

    says:

    Addendum: Surely nobody here thinks America and Israel weren’t involved in this new war. It is documented and certified. Surely there can be no good outcome for the west. Check out Russia today.com and therealnews.com ; you’ll like it.

  • alberta treadway

    says:

    At this time we don’t even have all the information. It’s not a time for any hot head statements. It’s time for cool heads. Mccain scares me to death! the Republicans have clearly got us mired down in Iraq. So where are we suppose to come up with military power to strong arm any country! So at this point an time to spew crazy threats, and cut throat tactics should not be done! Even Bush is useing a cool head here! Man that is a surprise! Mccain is useing this political times to show how tough he is, and doesn’t even understand that this is the real thing, and he needs to step back and shut up! We can’t afford to get into a war with Russia! Thank God that John Mccain is not our president in this situation! It gives us a pause however, to take a long hard look at what Hot Head Mccain would get us into in the future! People are right! The type of military record John Mccain has, and the fact it was over 26 years ago does not apparently give the education, intelligence and behaviors needed to deal with this deligate matter at hand! All he can think of is to point fingers and scream threats at a another super power, when we don’t even have the military advantage to back up his threats in our home base ready to go to another war! Real smart Mccain is!

  • alberta treadway

    says:

    I actually like the fact that Obama backed off from war cries and threats to take baering on the situation! Your suppose to filter the info, make sure it’s correct before you lose your cool and scream like an abanshie! Mccain gut answer with no study of the situation was to threaten another super power! Now if we had a ready army at hand, and repub’s like Mccain/bush/channey hadn’t mired us down into a no where , no account war in Iraq “That wasn’t a threat to the U.S”, than we could have been ready for this move Russia took! But no! We have nothing, and because of that we have to play a cool diplomatic program, and than lead up to harsher tones! It’s time you all realize that the repub’s have put America into a very weak military, financial, and economic situation—-that has left us wide open to be over run ourselfs! Now is not the time to threaten any other nation! we need Obama desperatly to help us end this war, and face the real threats to our nation, an build our military power back up for case’s just like this!

  • Zero Hour

    says:

    Why does people keep saying that theres nothing “America” can do about it? Theres everything we can do about it! Iraq has been a war full of suicide bombers and Al Qaeda. A war with Russia would be alot different and defiantly an easier front ( though alot more people and better technology )

    And as far as going as far as to compare the U.S.A,’s action in Iraq to Russia’s action of going to war with Georgia, We had alot better reason. Iraq had a ruthless dictator who was linked to Al Qaeda.

    Also America took every precaution possible to minimize civilian Casualties compared to Russia coming in and slaughtering everyone in sight!

    America also has a large chuck of the most experienced war combatants in the world…

    To the stupid Russians who decided to speak there opinions earlier-
    Shut the fuck up and get a reality check you stupid bitches! The U.S. would rape Russia in a war! ( Even though I have friends and Russia and would’nt want that) …

    And I would be the first to pick up a rifle and head over to shut brad’s stupid ass up!!! ( :

  • Dave from NY

    says:

    So what happens now?

    Russia has effectively squashed a heavily-armed, Israeli-trained U.S. client state, killed Americans in the process, and the U.S. has done nothing about it.

    It’s gotta suck to be Bush this week. He sends men and weapons to build up Georgia, goads them to attack, and then after four days of battle Putin hands him the head of his client. All Putin has to do now is put on an army uniform, get into a tank Dukakis-style, roll into Tblisi under a banner that says “Выполненный полет” and this game is over.

    I just hope the Taliban were watching the Olympics this week instead of CNN.

  • Sam Henderson

    says:

    What I am reading here on many of the responses is that the US, specifically Bush and McCain, are hypocritical in their choice of words regarding occupation. What I think many of you are missing is the fact that Russia is becoming more and more aggressive into what it appears to be a full occupation of a “Democratic” state. A state in which the leader was “elected” by its people and where freedom prevails – all in an area where freedom hasn’t shown its beautiful head in almost a century. This is a threat to freedom everywhere. Our occupation in Iraq, although highly miscalculated, was to thwart an oppressive leader, who violated human rights and reportedly had nuclear weapons manufacturing facilities in place. This, by NATO standards violated, or I should say threatened, world peace and freedom. Folks, if we do not stand up to this kind of action we may be forced in the future to defend our own borders. We really need to rid our identities of ourselves as Obama vs. McCain or Liberal vs. Conservative and unite behind the idea of true freedom for everyone. The fact is, if a dictator like Saddam Hussein was to have read many of these comments he would have the writers whipped, or worse, shot. Freedom is a good thing and we must defend it at all costs. As an Obama supporter I thought McCain did a bold but correct response to Russia’s actions.

  • A.E.H.

    says:

    So now should the great and mighty Obama get down off his surf board while he vacations in Hawaii and again ‘ask’ for a cease fire? Maybe he should ask louder this time. ‘Cause it worked so well the first time. Sam Henderson is correct on so many levels but Americans have for some reason started to believe their freedom magically appeared and is a luxury they can and should take for granted.

  • Pages tagged "alarming"

    says:

    […] bookmarks tagged alarmingDo you have a website? Check Web CEO for webmasters. Russia, Georgia, and McCain’s reckless belligere… saved by 5 others     MovieMan2011 bookmarked on 08/16/08 | […]

  • 2 cents

    says:

    U.S. restraint is exactly what the Russians are hoping for. Another week, and Georgia will be part of Russia. Ukraine will be next, and lo and behold, the Soviet Union is back again. I say McCain knows exactly what he is talking about. Obama hasn’t a clue. If only the US took General Patton’s advice so long ago.

  • Piglet

    says:

    Yes lock and load warm up the tomahawks and send in the marines show and awe will break the Russians and put them in their place next on the list north Korea and Iran with democracy beside us we cannot lose…ever.

  • Piglet

    says:

    Picture an intervention, what will it be like ? will the Russian black sea fleet be sunk and air power used on Russian forces, what if they panic and go nuclear what will happen. Or will it be softer sanctions and blockades what ever happens the Russians will go down swinging unlike Iraq.PS Imagine what happens when russia proliferates to anyone and everyone as payback a nuclear sudan ICBM north Korea etc