Setting the record straight on capital gains

For all the discussion we’ve seen (and participated in) over the political trivia that dominated last week’s Democratic debate, let’s not forget that even when ABC’s Charlie Gibson was willing to ask a substantive question, he was still getting his facts wrong. Now that John McCain is repeating Gibson’s mistakes, it’s worth keeping reality in mind.

Here’s the exchange from Wednesday night in Philadelphia:

MR. GIBSON: [Sen. Obama, you have said] you would favor an increase in the capital gains tax…. But actually Bill Clinton in 1997 signed legislation that dropped the capital gains tax to 20 percent. And George Bush has taken it down to 15 percent. And in each instance, when the rate dropped, revenues from the tax increased. The government took in more money. And in the 1980s, when the tax was increased to 28 percent, the revenues went down. So why raise it at all, especially given the fact that 100 million people in this country own stock and would be affected?

SENATOR OBAMA: Well, Charlie, what I’ve said is that I would look at raising the capital gains tax for purposes of fairness. We saw an article today which showed that the top 50 hedge fund managers made $29 billion last year — $29 billion for 50 individuals. And part of what has happened is that those who are able to work the stock market and amass huge fortunes on capital gains are paying a lower tax rate than their secretaries. That’s not fair. And what I want is not oppressive taxation. I want businesses to thrive and I want people to be rewarded for their success. But what I also want to make sure is that our tax system is fair and that we are able to finance health care for Americans who currently don’t have it and that we’re able to invest in our infrastructure and invest in our schools.

Unsatisfied with his own mini-speech masquerading as a question, Gibson interrupted Obama’s answer to re-emphasize his belief: “But history shows that when you drop the capital gains tax, the revenues go up.”

Yesterday, on the same network, McCain repeated Gibson’s talking points, almost word for word, saying Obama “obviously doesn’t understand the economy, because history shows every time you have cut capital gains taxes, revenues have increased, going back to Jack Kennedy.”

All of this is demonstrably wrong.

Time’s Justin Fox tacked the subject today. (via Ezra)

There’s an easily observable one-year effect: Revenue almost always goes up the year after a capital gains rate cut because people can time the realization of their capital gains — and when a cut is coming they’ll delay those realizations en masse until after it becomes law. But that’s not really evidence that capital gains tax cuts increase revenue; it’s just evidence that they shift revenue from one year to another.

Beyond that, it’s much harder to say. In the chart in my previous post I measured capital gains tax receipts over the course of a business cycle, and on a real basis they were down in 2007 (which is almost certainly going to be a business cycle peak) over 2000. But that measurement too is subject to all sorts of noise and other possible reasons for the decline in tax receipts.

Which is where the “serious economists” who build models of economic behavior come in. And yeah, basically I mean professors at fancy universities. But on this particular topic I tend to rely on professors at fancy universities who have served in the current Bush administration, because I figure it’s hard to dismiss their verdict as political. The current consensus of this crowd is pretty well reflected in a 2004 paper by Greg Mankiw, the former chairman of Bush’s Council of Economic Advisers, and Matthew Weinzierl, which concluded that “for standard parameter values, half of a capital tax cut is self-financing.”

That means half of the tax cut is not self-financing–so the overall result of the cut is a revenue loss. And those “standard parameter values” include spending cuts to make up for the revenue loss from the tax cuts. If you simply do as the Bush administration has done, and make no commensurate spending cuts, you get less than half of the tax cut back.

Now that’s still a pretty good deal, and if you believe the Mankiw-Weinzierl model then it makes sense to keep capital gains taxes low and raise taxes on, say, gasoline. But it doesn’t mean that cutting capital gains tax rates will or has ever had the magical effects ascribed to it by Charlie Gibson on TV.

The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities also produced a revealing report on this.

Cutting capital gains rates reduces revenues over the long run. That’s the conclusion of the federal government’s official revenue-estimating agencies, as well as outside experts and the Bush Administration’s own Treasury Department.

The non-partisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO) and the Joint Committee on Taxation have estimated that extending the capital gains tax cut enacted in 2003 would cost $100 billion over the next decade. The Administration’s Office of Management and Budget included a similar estimate in the President’s budget.

After reviewing numerous studies of how investors respond to capital gains tax cuts, the non-partisan Congressional Research Service concluded that cutting capital gains taxes loses revenue over the long run.

The Bush Administration Treasury Department examined the economic effects of extending the capital gains and dividend tax cuts. Even under the Treasury’s most optimistic scenario about the economic effects of these tax cuts, the tax cuts would not generate anywhere close to enough added economic growth to pay for themselves — and would thus lose money.

I obviously don’t expect McCain to acknowledge he’s wrong, but Gibson, a media professional, asked a bogus question in a presidential debate. When the candidate didn’t respond the way Gibson preferred, he pressed his case further, all on a mistaken premise.

An on-air correction, at a minimum, is warranted.

An on-air correction, at a minimum, is warranted.

Good luck with that.

First Cokie Roberts and now Charlie and George S. (of all people).

My ABC News and abcnews.com days are over forever.

  • For the benefit of those who want a very quick answer as opposed to all of the above–the cut in capital gains tax rate only seems to bring in more revenue because investors adjust investment income (sometimes with fancy tax shelters) so that more of the income is taxed at the lower capital gains rate–but this means less income is taxed at the higher rate.

    Looking at this historically also can be misleading because many other factors come into play. For example, if the market is doing good capital gains will increase, potentially increasing the amount brought in by taxes despite (not necessarily because of) a cut in the rate.

  • There is another aspect to the capital gains tax issue that gets overlooked. If you have investment money and your choice is stocks or business expansion, the incentive is stocks. Although Price/Earnings ratios are so high that stock values are virtually worthless, it really doesn’t seem to matter. The safety net is the “dumb” money from unsophisticated investors through IRA’s and 401K’s. Debra Valentine, General Counsel for the US Federal Trade Commission defines a pyramid scheme: “They promise consumers or investors large profits based primarily on recruiting others to join their program, not based on profits from any real investment or real sale of goods to the public. This is exactly what the stock market is becoming.

    When the Reagan Administration began the retirement programs like IRA’s, part of the rationale was that it would provide start up capital. But it’s not doing that. Even though the money is available, and anxious to find profitable ventures, free trade policies negate a lot of opportunities. Kevin Phillips, in his book American Theocracy, warns of how empires decline when societies rely on imports, banking and rents rather than actual production of goods and services. The capital gains tax cuts, combined with free trade policies are leading us in that direction.

  • We let Gibson and Stephonopoulos off easy when we dismiss the questions as trivial. What is even more disturbing to me is that they are out and out lies the media is proactively peddling. I mean, they can’t even tell the truth about things that don’t matter.

    Is the flag pin trivial? Sure. But it’s also a complete fabrication selectively used to knock down the MSM’s targets. The double standard is so entrenched, they don’t even bother to wear flag pins when they ask Obama about it. Whether or not Obama placed his hand on his heart is fluff is not the issue. The issue is that they are making up shit about Democrats, and running interference to protect McCain from the things he’s actually done.

    Anyone see how CNN compared the incomes of six leading politicians’ worth, including the spouses’ income for all of them EXCEPT McCain? You think that’s an accident? Why is it that Bill Moyers is the FIRST journalist to interview the most controversial, talked about person in America, Rev. Wright?

    I’ll tell you why. For the same reason Jake Tapper covered up the fact that the Sergeant at Arms requested the plane as he ran the “controversy” — because if they interviewed Wright, everyone would realize they’re full of shit. When have they been full-of-shit smearing McCain?

  • Yeah, let’s get rid of the capital gains tax altogether and put a sales tax on every stock transaction. We’ll see who the elitists are real quick when they have to start paying for their purchases just like everyone else;>

  • Can anyone speak to George Will’s statement on This Week that “20% of those claiming capital gains have an annual income of less than $50K ” ?.

    This may reflect retirees incomes, but I find this a moot point since the retirees tax bracket offsets the captial gains tax. I suspect the other 80% have an annual income of 6 million.

  • I like Greg Mankiw, especially because he is in favor of higher gas taxes, but he is a conservative Republican.

    SO if he thinks that half the cut pays for itself then a reasonable person would conclue that AT MOST half the tax cut is self financing. It is reasonable to assume the actual number is closer to 25% than 50%. However, it is UNREASONABLE to assume that the number is above 50%

  • Coral (6):Can anyone speak to George Will’s statement on This Week that “20% of those claiming capital gains have an annual income of less than $50K ” ?.

    All this really means is that for every five people who own stocks or mutual funds outside of retirement shelters (IRA’s, 401K’s etc.), one makes less than 50K. Virtually all of these people invest through mutual funds, because they are advised to diversify and let an expert do the day to day buying and selling. And the way mutual funds work, their holders are required to list cap gains on their returns every year. Even if they lose money, by the way.

  • Coral (6) I should add also that some of these people are declaring cap gains because they sell a home and move into an appartment.

  • somebody has given abc to the republican party as a present — they don’t need no stinking “freedom’s watch.” although their news programs have tended toward creepy in the past, that feeling increased when the local abc affiliate hired convicted felon former providence rhode island mayor “buddy” cianci to do … drum roll .. local political reporting. but they are REALLY making my hair stand up lately.

    friday, having interrupted regular programming allegedly for a speech by the pope, they showed bush and the pope royally seated and entertained by a variety of songs played by martial bands. i thought i was watching soviet tv! i half expected the person answering the phone at the local affiliate to have some sort of vocal tick. they didn’t, but they also couldn’t tell me how long the musical entertainment was expected to last. if their goal was to prevent me from listening to the pope’s speech with my own lying ears instead of letting the news people tell me what i needed to hear, they were successful.

    then of course we had the “debate.” and now, having subsequently learned that it was MCCAIN that “won” the friday night abc “debate” (hahaha — he wasn’t even there! i know! isn’t that just the best evah?), we’re learning that gibson and mccain are sharing notes like junior high school sweethearts!

    with all that happy feeling well established, cindy mccain and her clapping seals were on “the view” this morning.

    the pharmaceuticals are no longer helping to dispel this annoying whirling sensation which recurs lately with greater frequency …

  • 5.On April 21st, 2008 at 5:45 pm, Martin said:
    Yeah, let’s get rid of the capital gains tax altogether and put a sales tax on every stock transaction.

    Now there’s a REALLY good idea…one percent ? two? five?…license to print money…make greed pay for itself…ah lahks it…

  • I don’t know why Obama dug a hole for himself. All he has to do is set a progressive tax rate for capital gains, just as there is for ordinary income. Actually, to some extent, there already is. He’s fallen into the trap, letting himself get blasted. Nobody is going to hear the Democratic boring, technical rebuttal. They simply hear the Republican noise machine and quake in their boots. Obama should have recommended a capital gains tax increase that could not be subjected to such distortions.

    We must also remember this: every pundit on television is VERY RICH. Get it? They don’t want their capital gains taxed at 28%. They cannot be objective. They ought to recuse themselves from any discussion about taxes. They do not live in the same world as ordinary Americans. They are not personally affected by the problems that beset most of us. They don’t have any stake in Iraq, except defense contractors in their stock portfolios who are making a fortune on the war. To them, all these problems that are being discussed are abstractions. They are living well, and they are all far better off after seven years of the Bush presidency.

    That is the story of human civilization since we came down from the trees. The rich have it all, make the rules, and exploit everyone else, and we don’t dare do anything about it because we’ll be called communists.

  • Danp: “All this really means is that for every five people who own stocks or mutual funds outside of retirement shelters (IRA’s, 401K’s etc.), one makes less than 50K.”

    Good point. I’d also note that 50K is approximately the median household income. So to put it another way, one of the five taxpayers who claims capital gains is from the bottom half, the other four are in the top half.

    And, as Ezra Klein graphs, the lower quintiles aren’t claiming very big capital gains.

    http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/ezraklein_archive?month=04&year=2008&base_name=assignment_desk_meets_chart_of_1

  • I obviously don’t expect McCain to acknowledge he’s wrong, but Gibson, a media professional, asked a bogus question in a presidential debate. When the candidate didn’t respond the way Gibson preferred, he pressed his case further, all on a mistaken premise.

    An on-air correction, at a minimum, is warranted.

    I agree. The main problem was that Gibson presented a contested theory as establish fact. As you mentioned, he said “But history shows that when you drop the capital gains tax, the revenues go up.” Had he said “Some claim that…” or “Many contend that…”, it would have been acceptable. In fact, just about every economic study that I have come across concludes that capital gains tax cuts LOSE revenues. The only disagreement is over the size of the loss. Even Bush’s most recent budget projects that making the dividends and capital gains tax cuts permanent will cost $196 billion and $105 billion, respectively, from 2009 through 2018 (see table S-7 at http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy09/pdf/budget/tables.pdf ). In any case, I’ve posted more on this issue at http://usbudget.blogspot.com/2008/04/do-capital-gains-tax-cuts-raise-revenue.html .

  • Capital Gains tax breaks are extremely inefficient and have very little to do with economic growth.

    People don’t understand that buying stocks is similar to buying a used car. Where does your money go when you buy a share of stock. It only goes to the company if you are buying an initial offering. Otherwise your money goes through the broker, to the last person who owned it. Just like buying a used car at the car lot. Your money goes through the salesperson (broker) to the last person who owned it. Why should we give this kind of sale preferential treatment. I can make the case that wages should be taxed less than capital gains because labor adds more to the productivity of the country than swapping second hand paper. The only advantage of capital gains is to the corporations that use their inflated price to monopolize industries. Microsoft doesn’t need to buy their competitors with cash, they do it the way old Standard Oil did, they pay with stock or they run their competitors out of business.

    Another way to increase capital gains taxes is to raise them. 1985 was a huge year for capital gains. That is because the law was passed to raise the capital gains rate in 1986. Everybody sold off early, showing that these gains are largely recognized at the discretion of the investor.

  • The problem with Obama’s naivete on the issue is that he wants to raise cap gains taxes as a way to pay for his pet programs. If he’s not sure what might happen to revenue, then his argument about how to pay for things falls flat.

    As for Foon’s comment above, he can make a case, but it would be wrong. First, he might not like Microsoft, but Microsoft employs tens of thousands of people, many in the U.S. and has brought us technology that has improved our standard of living. I believe that the people that invested in Microsoft years ago deserve a bit of credit and the rewards of their “bet”- they backed a company that succeeded and help our economy.

    As for the second hand paper argument, well, that does apply to most things – homes, land – an economy is based on transactions, and whether something is new or old is sort of meaningless. Stocks do pay out dividends, companies issue more shares to raise additional capital – and there are other ways that profits are returned to the investors over time – they are far from being “second hand paper.” If you were to tax cap gains on stocks/bonds aggressively, in one manner you’d reduce the appeal of them, leaving companies less able to finance growth.

    But the biggest idiot award goes to his statement that “labor adds more to the productivity…” – labor in and of itself does NOTHING to improvde or degrade productivity. Labor is simply of the factors in the CALCULATION of productivity – for the most part, a measure of how much “output” you got using all your inputs (labor, etc.). If you add more labor to something with no increase in value, you actually reduce productivity.

    Productivity improvements, which come through new ideas, new technologies, generally reduce the amount of labor needed to produce something. Look at a modern steel mill – even if they stil existed in the Rust Belt, they’d employ probably 1/3 the workers they did 2 generations ago. And productivity improvements are necessary to improve our standard of living (anyone wash their clothes in a washbasin these days? or replace a blown vacuum tube?). Those improvements often come when investors bet on an idea, through stock and bond investments.

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