Settling the meaning of the 2nd Amendment

It’s hard to believe that after over two centuries, the Supreme Court has never definitively ruled on whether the 2nd Amendment protects an individual’s right to “keep and bear arms.”

But that’s about to change. The Supreme Court announced this morning that it will hear a DC case that will probably settle the question, at least for now.

The justices agreed to hear an appeal from the District of Columbia, whose gun-control law — one of the strictest in the nation — was struck down by the lower federal courts earlier this year. The case will probably be argued in the spring.

The United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit struck down sections of the Washington gun law that make it exceedingly difficult to legally own a handgun, that prohibit carrying guns without a license even from one room to another, and that require lawfully owned firearms to be kept unloaded.

The Second Amendment, surely one of the most disputed passages in the United States Constitution and one whose punctuation is not always rendered consistently, states this in its entirety: “A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

The Supreme Court has never directly addressed the basic meaning of that passage. When it last considered a Second Amendment case, in 1939, it addressed a somewhat peripheral question, holding that a sawed-off shotgun was not one of the “arms” that the Founding Fathers had in mind.

The debate is specifically over the language of the amendment itself. Lyle Denniston posed the question nicely: “[D]oes the Second Amendment guarantee an individual right to have a gun for private use, or does it only guarantee a collective right to have guns in an organized military force such as a state National Guard unit?”

Denniston added that the justices may be predisposed to favor a more conservative, individual approach.

Some observers who read the Court’s order closely may suggest that the Court is already inclined toward an “individual rights” interpretation of the Second Amendment. That is because the order asks whether the three provisions of the D.C. gun control law violate “the Second Amendment rights of individuals.” But that phrasing may reveal very little about whether the Amendment embraces an individual right to have a gun for private use. Only individuals, of course, would be serving in the militia, and there is no doubt that the Second Amendment provides those individuals a right to have a gun for that type of service. The question the Court will be deciding is, if there are individuals who want to keep pistols for use at home, does the Second Amendment guarantee them that right. Just because the Second Amendment protects some individual right does not settle the nature of that right.

Either way, the ruling will probably come down in June — of a presidential election year. As Kevin Drum put it, candidates “better get their talking points ready.”

Would this not also limit rifles as well as pistols? I have to admit I would hate living in a deeply rural area without a rifle.

  • This issue will be strong on the agenda as most people feel it is their right to bear arms no matter how the constitution is interpreted. All the horror stories told are always on the fringe of the majority’s use of guns and the rhetoric of control and regulation must be cautious to avoid being misconstrued.

  • The debate is specifically over the language of the amendment itself. Lyle Denniston posed the question nicely: “[D]oes the Second Amendment guarantee an individual right to have a gun for private use, or does it only guarantee a collective right to have guns in an organized military force such as a state National Guard unit?”

    They are also going to have to decide, eventually, whether the Crips street gang can be de-thugged by taking away its firearms, or, since they are essentially a little military, whether they are entitled to keep the firearms to defends themselves against other hoodlums.

  • This case may determine whether Scalia and friends have the right to call themselves strict constructionists.

  • I’d seriously be watching how the shrill little lemmings on the right play this one; pushing the question on Dem candidates long before the Supremes render an opinion, and hoping to play them off as “soft on the Constitution.”

    There’s a second question that someone’ll eventually need to answer someday—What constitutes “Arms?” I haven’t seen a treaty yet—and treaties are the only thing that trumps the Constitution, so far as I can tell—that denies an individual the right to own an ICBM with a 20-megaton thermonuclear warhead on top. If the Supremes rule that an individual does, indeed, have a Constitutional right to possess arms—and there’s no mention as to “prohibited ordnance” in that twenty-seven-word “Pandora’s Box”—how open-ended could this thing become?

    Because you can’t just pass a law that trumps “the Big C.” It takes an Amendment—and those things could be somewhat hard to come by in this day and age of “protracted political polarization….”

  • I have no problem with individuals “bearing arms”. What I think either the Supreme Court or Congress (or both) should do is define what the word “Arms” means. By making a law that says that “Arms” means certain types of rifles (which might mimic what was available at the writing of the Constitution) and certain types of handguns (which would update the knowledge available when the Constitution was written to include knowledge from today), you might avoid the types of problems we have with limiting armament ownership but at the same time upholding the law as stated by the Constitution (or at least allow the Supreme Court to decide something more specific such as whether or not Congress can decide on the definitions of words in the Constitution).

  • Wow. I can’t believe that a conservative court might actually come in handy. I hope to god they settle this issue in favor of individuals rights. It’s my right to own a pistol or assault rifle and it’s your right to not go buy one if you want. Remember, all the gun control laws in the world won’t stop gun crime because…drum roll…CRIMINALS DON’T OBEY THE LAWS! Take a look at Great Britain, they used to have the right to arms too, but look how much safer their society is now that there are few privately owned weapons. For that matter, look how much safer and secure London is now that there is surveillance of Orwellian proportions in place. I’m sure now that the guns are gone and the cameras are rolling, that place over there is a utopia of enlightenment and is totally crime free…

  • How fortuitous for the right that this decision comes in 2008. Regardless of the nature of the court’s decision, in spite of the conservative majority of the court, the decision can be used to motivate the right’s base. No such opportunity exists for the left.

    If the individual’s right is not restricted, conservatives can tout their status as guardians of American freedom. If it is restricted, the right can convincingly assert that only they will work tirelessly to reverse the misguided if well-intentioned action of the court.

  • Just to reiterate some of the above, the 2nd Amendment doesn’t mention guns anywhere. If the SUpremes are going to go for broad individual rights, the Repubs better have their talking points ready for when I go for neighborhood nuclear superiority.

    Also, I can’t wait for the Sex Shops here in Alabama to start posting signs: “It’s not a sex toy, it’s a weapon :>

  • I’m sorry I’m so cynical, and I think gun rights are the only thing I can really relate to with the republicans, but for all the liberals out there that say the government should honor the constitution, YOU also cannot pick and choose your amendments. The 2nd is there for a really important reason that people do not like to discuss: the next american revolution. Our founding fathers new that future politicians would eventually corrupt their carefully crafted document and so they put in right behind our rights to free speech and petition, the right to defend the constitution or in the dissolution of that document, so that we may break the bonds of tyranny too, just as they did.

    Yes, CaID, you can own a tank, but if you want a working gun on it, there’s ATF paperwork to fill out, but you can the gun. Legally. And as far as the little point that you’re making, if all of a sudden the military starts using laser guns, I’m going to expect that they will be made available to the public in short order. Why? Because how am i going to fight a government gone amok with obsolete, outdated weapons. Thomas Jefferson I think might agree.

  • I always agreed with the thought that one needs the second amendment to ensure the first amendment 🙂

    I mean, if government fails in its duty, how is the individual to protect her inherent right to speak out, to have an independent press, to petition the government, to worship as she chooses and to assemble with whomever she wishes?

    If a president illegally declares martial law, voids the Constitution and proclaims himself president for life, what would the people be able to do if their guns have been taken away? Oh, just hope and pray the unitary executive sees the light of day.

  • The NRA crowd will never vote Democratic anyway. The NRA has them all convinced that all Dems want to take away their guns. Any Dem who comes out for gun control is hyped and blown out of proportion in their press and the next best thing to promoting a commie dictatorship.

  • They are also going to have to decide, eventually, whether the Crips street gang can be de-thugged by taking away its firearms, or, since they are essentially a little military, whether they are entitled to keep the firearms to defends themselves against other hoodlums.

    The correct response to this is, by the way, “Wow, that’s an absurd result- the states should be able to regulate ownership of firearms even of private citizens who belong to organized groups that use guns to defend themselves.”

  • I think the only presidential politician who has to worry is Guliani. After all, he’s the Republican who instituted gun control in NYC. Everyone else is right in line with their party.

    If for some odd reason SCOTUS was to limit the right of gun ownership to militia members, look to people to push their states to enact pro-gun legislation.

    I’m from Arizona, which became a state in 1912. All ambiguity seems to have been eliminated in our Constitution:

    The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself or the state shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain, or employ an armed body of men.

  • We are all one big militia. We all have the right to ‘bear arms.” We all are subject to being “well regulated,” however.

    Just another way to look at it.

  • “If a president illegally declares martial law, voids the Constitution…”

    Like warrantless searches (wiretapping) and indefinite detention without trial, and refusing to acknowledge habeus corpus???

    IIRC, the reason the 1939 case let sawn off shotguns be banned was that they found that they WEREN’T suitable for military use!

    And I agree that SOME LIMIT has to be found. Else I could have a nuke or bazooka.

    BUT:
    1) Is a rifle like the soldiers carry OK? It was back when the constitution was written.
    2) How about a semiauto only version?
    3) A pistol like the soldiers use?
    4) Did you know the US Government STILL gives away at a huge discount old weapons? Look under “civilain marksmanship program.” And these aren’t .22 cal plinkers, they are full power battle rifles.
    5) You can ALREADY buy a rifle equal to what a lot of soldiers carry. Go to the local gun store and get a “hunting rifle” and mount a scope.

    IMHO, what the Constitution allows is the people to possess weapons IF THEY PASS the requirements to be in the “unorganized militia.” Back in the day, this was ALL FREE ADULTS (all men then) of sound moral character. And YES, there have been times in history that these “militia” were called out. Except they were usually called a Deputized Posse or similar.

  • DB,

    Why? Because how am i going to fight a government gone amok with obsolete, outdated weapons.

    So you think individual citizens should be allowed to own nuclear weapons? If not, why not? How about Stealth Bombers and battleships?

  • I imagine that the supreme court will decide that there is an individual right to bear arms. I hope that they will be guided by the principle that “the constitution is not a suicide pact” when they (in future cases) decide what “bear arms” means.

    Does “bear arms” include a right to carry concealed? How about on aircraft? In any public place? Are “gun free” school zones consitituional? Is keeping guns out of courtrooms an exercise in sovereignty or a violation of individual rights?

    Is this a right that felons loose permanently? Is this a right like due process which they never loose? Is it a right like being free from unreasonable searches which they regain when they complete their sentence? Or a right like voting which they do not regain with out afirmative action ffrom the courts?

    So far congress can say that certain arms can be regulated (“class III firearms and descructive devices”), and that some can be outright banned (nuclear weapons). I expect that this court will make the ruling as narrow as possible and primarily address the issues presented by the parties.

    My bet is that the court will say that there is an individual right and that the D.C. statute violates it. I predict language reminding us that while we have a right to free speech, you can’t shout “fire” in a crowded theatre. I expect a narrow ruling which only addresses the rights at issue in this case. I expect the ruling to be nearly unanimous and packaged so that neither party will be able to take advantage of it. I predict a cross between a minefield and a can of worms and I imagine that all but the most desperate on the right will studiously avoid the issue.

  • Edo,

    Thats a disingenous argument because the 2nd amendment debate IS about guns, no matter if the term “arms” is used in constitutional language. Nuclear weapons, stealth bombers and battle ships are bombs, planes, and boats respectively.

    A lot of times when there are questions of constitutional language that don’t jibe with modern language, we go back and try to see what the intent of the language was.

    An no, an individual citizen may NOT own a nuclear weapon. You are implying that by my logic that i should. The reason that i may not own one is because if i did and i chose to use it, i would most certainly be denying others around me (or the blast hypocenter) their right to life, liberty, and happiness, which is definitely unconstitutional.

    QED

  • I wonder if there is any data about the incidence of armed crime by LICENSED concealed weapons permit holders?

    I carry concealed and know a bunch of others that do too.

    And I KNOW for a fact that none of us has been caught in the last few years performing criminal acts with our guns.

    I think it would be an interesting comparison. And easy too. Take the population rolls (census data or drivers licenses/ whatever) check the rates of convictions for armed offenses by those WITH the CCW permit and those WITHOUT.

    Might be surprising!

  • Will it be a landmark decision, settling the issue once and for all, or will they duck it? Who knows? But what’s always bothered me is that the Constitution itself provides no sure way to settle Constitutional issues. There’s nothing to require the Supreme Court to accept a case in the first place, except, apparently, that they find it entertaining enough to take it, and nothing to require them to rule responsibly. Often they rule very narrowly, or duck the issue altogether.

    Why does a specific case have to trigger a ruling? Why is there no mechanism in place to interpret the Constitution when it’s wanted or needed, so we don’t fight over issues for decades or even centuries without resolution?

    Congress can do an awful lot of mischief if it wants, because it takes forever and then some to decide whether what they’ve done is Constitutional or not.

  • that they find it entertaining enough to take it,

    Well, I think it’s more like they’ve got a hankering to flex their power in a certain area or just have an almost pedantic yearning that a specific issue should be decided a certain way, even if it doesn’t set their ideological alarms buzzing for the breadth of practical impact the ruling will make.

  • The theory is that they pick important issues where there are conflicts among the appeals courts. Sometimes this shows a disagreement on interpretation of existing law and sometimes it means that society is not sure which way to go.

    The court seems to duck issues like this one until there is a consensus in society. I think they sense that almost everyone believes that individuals should be allowed to have guns. The debate is over who, under what conditions, with what kind of regulation, what kind of guns, etc. I expect the essence of what the court will say will be that they agree that individuals should be allowed to have guns and that keeping a gun in your home is the most basic expression of that right. I also expect they will duck all the difficult issues.

  • I read a book by Michael Bellesiles called “Arming America.” It’s a very informative book and I recommend it to anyone interested in the rise of the American gun culture. It doesn’t, in my opinion, have an idealogical bent. Anyway, as I recall (unfortunately I have the book packed away and can’t directly quote it) but as a I remember there is a part towards the end that refers to a 1876 Supreme Court decision. I believe it was Kruickshank (sp?) vs The United States. Long story short, a mob attacked a group of people celebrating some political victories in Louisiana. The mob disarmed the crowd (which only had some knives) and then subsequently burned down a barn they took shelter in. When the people fled the burning barn they were shot and killed. Some were even hunted down in a creek nearby and shot. Several of the members of the mob were Parish deputies. As I recall, they believe that over 100+ people were killed. The local authorities refused to press charges or investigate. At the time there was no federal statute against murder. The Federal Government had no other way of prosecuting those involved, other than taking them up on civil rights violations. The case went all the way to the Supreme Court. The court ruled on the civil rights violations. During the course of the case, the issue of the mob disarming the crowd was brought up. While this wasn’t a charge of the government, the Supreme Court talked about this in their ruling. The court said that in effect there was nothing they could do about the mob disarming the crowd on 2nd Amendment violations because the 2nd Amendment does not pertain to individual gun ownership. You’ll have to forgive me for the generality of the story, as I don’t remember it word for word. But I think that speaks volumes to how studied jurists viewed the 2nd Amendment at that time.

    I personally think it’s fairly clearly spelled out in the 2nd Amendment. Militia equals modern day National Guard. Militia does not equal John Q. Public. The simple fact is that, aside from a sea change in American attitudes, it would be simply impossible to remove guns from the American culture. And except for a very small group of people, no one is trying to completely remove weapons from the general public. Having said that, there should be limits to gun ownership. Weapons such as handguns, hunting rifles, sporting rifles, shotguns, etc should always be fine. But could there be any possible reason for John Q. Public to own a M-16? Does anyone really think that private citizens could stand up to the might of the US military? Is there any real reason for someone to even own an assault rifle? I don’t think there is. There is a simple and pragmatic approach to gun rights out there. But I simply don’t think it’s possible to have well-crafted legislation about guns rights at this time. The NRA and the extreme right wing simply won’t let it happen. And for the record, I own a gun.

  • RC635 is essentially correct. The reason that the court will rule that there is an individual right is that:

    “The simple fact is that, aside from a sea change in American attitudes, it would be simply impossible to remove guns from the American culture. And except for a very small group of people, no one is trying to completely remove weapons from the general public”, i.e. we’ve reached consensus.

    I expect (hope) that regulation will continue as it is with more powerful weapons being more regulated. Air guns are almost unregulated. Most non-auto small arms are somewhat regulated. Automatic weapons, supressors, short barreled weapons are tightly regulated. Destructive devices are almost prohibited.

    The anti-liberal bent of the NRA is from the pro-corporate leadership. Bubba and his friends don’t like the kleptocrats or their theocrat allies any more than the rest of us. Why do we let the corporate republican NRA leadership use “gun control” as the wedge issue? Most of the NRA is not extreme right.

  • I remember the old bumper sticker that said—

    WHEN THEY OUTLAW GUNS ONLY OUTLAWS WILL HAVE GUNS!

    Guess I’ll be an outlaw.

  • “Will it be a landmark decision, settling the issue once and for all, or will they duck it?”

    I guess a possible option would be for the Court to decide that as the District is not a state, the Constitution is not binding upon it, thus allowing the District to do whatever it wants on this issue, and with the result being the decision is not binding on the 50 states. That would be an interesting outcome. This would be a true strict constructionist reading of the Constitution.

  • Regarding the comment “What constitutes “Arms?” and similar about tanks and such, that was also addressed in the Miller decision in ’38. Machine guns were ruled a proper target for federal restrictions given that, even though used in warfare, they are not the standard arm borne by an ordinary miltiaman. Of course to be consistent in pricinple with that ruling today, they would have to strike down those restrictions as far as fully automatic assault rifles go. But the groundwork is already laid interpreting the protection of the right to not extend to weapons beyond the ordinary military/police individual arms.

  • Regarding ” . . . treaties are the only thing that trumps the Constitution,. . .” you need to think again about that. That clearly can not be the case. The constitution is compact binding the people and states and cannot be altered without their involvment in one of the two prescribed ways. To allow a treaty to trump the constitution, would totally break down the balance of powers between the three branches of the federal government as well as betweent the states and the federal government. A treaty only requires action by the executive and the Senate, and they cannot usurp the powers of the House, the judiciary, the states, or of the people.

  • i would most certainly be denying others around me (or the blast hypocenter) their right to life, liberty, and happiness, which is definitely unconstitutional. — DB, @21

    Um… Actually, the Constitution doesn’t guarantee anyone the right to *happiness*, only to the *pursuit* of it. Of course, Marks (Karl) claimed that pursuit of a goal is happiness by itself, but I don’t think US puts much stock in Marks” thought 🙂

    Mike, @22

    I expect you’re right, and that most owners with a permit are far less likely to commit a crime than owners without a permit. But there ought to be *some* regulation regarding who gets a permit, and how the gun ought to be treated.

    I’m in a small town, semi-rural, Virginia, where guns — especially hunting rifles — are a a way of life. Kids in the middle school have a — mandated — course on how to use one. Every pick-up truck has a gun rack, usually well-filled. The entrance to our hospital has those slashed-through red circles, only, instead of a cigarette (no smoking), the slash is through a handgun, while the notice below says “no firearms allowed on premises”.

    But, because we are a small town, every accident reverberates loudly. Like the time a 3yr old, waiting in the pickup, for her parents to finish the conversation with some friends, in the parking lot of the church, shot her mother, because the safety catch was faulty and the rifle was loaded. Or like the time when the gun instructor shot one of his students in his office, demonstrating something, because he had forgotten to unload it after class. Or the time when one little boy wanted to show his little friend his father’s gun…

    So, the matter of transporting a loaded gun is something that ought to be addressed by law. Except, of course, what use is an unloaded one?

    And the second issue is the matter of permits. Virginia has probably the most relaxed law in this respect and the few, minimal, roadblocks are often ignored by the vendors. Which is why, for example, it pays criminals to to trek here from NYC to buy their arms.

    There’s plenty of room for compromise, so that, as we say in Polish, “the wolf is sated and the sheep is whole” but NRA won’t stand for *any* limits at all, and it has managed to brainwash and/or buy off a large segment of the population.

  • 1)Who is the militia?

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/10/311.html

    TITLE 10 > Subtitle A > PART I > CHAPTER 13 > § 311Prev | Next § 311. Militia: composition and classes
    (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
    (b) The classes of the militia are—
    (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
    (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

    2)What is the definition of “regulated” ? The definition today leans to “controlled” – the meaning years ago was “trained”.

  • Michael Bellesiles was discredited for fabricating data and sloppy scholarship in the production of the book cited by RC635. His offense was so severe that the Bancoft Prize orginally awarded for the book was rescinded–a first, and he was forced to resign his professorship for that bit of tripe.

    So it is best not to qoute it if one wishes to maintain credibility.

    The details as well as the substance of the Cruishank decision and the incident which led to are mostly wrongly described above. The incident is a fascinating and ugly bit of reconstruction history and the errors need not be corrected for the purposes of this discussion. The decision was not that there is no right for the individual to bear arms–rather it was that the 14the amendment (which is the provision of the consitution which extends the bill of right prohibitions on federal action to the states) did not make the disarming of one group of citizens by another group of citizens a federally enforceable civil rights violation because it was a group of citizens acting as individualls, not the state or local government, which did the disarming.

    The incident happened in Colfax, Louisiana, about 30 miles from Jena, the relationship being that it is the very reason the noose hangers can not have violated any federal civil rights laws—all such laws are grounded in the 14th amendment which confers and olbigation on state and local governments, not on individuals, to respect individuals civil rights.

  • The Second Amendment is one of those articles of law that people tend to look selectively at. Those that look at the part about not having their right to keep and bear arms abridged tend not to recognize the part a being well regulated nor have an understanding of the militia issue.

    The Roberts – Scalia court has been ruling quite consistently lately on the side of government having supremacy over individuals. It will be interesting to see how the conservative majority rules on this. They favor abridging other constitutionally protected right so the government can spy on or torture individuals so it should follow that if they were to be consistent they would also view a well armed populace as a threat to the government as well. I’m sure they will tow the party line and not see any reason to regulate arms among the public, but you’d have to think there would be some cognitive dissonance for the Supremos.

    The definition of what constitutes the arms that citizens can keep and bear could use some clear definitions. Technology has and will continue to produce increasingly lethal weaponry that can constitute an even more grave threat to the public that the 2nd Amendment can defend against. It would be wise to set some firm grounds on this issue. While the NRA will rebel as usual, I’d still like to hear Wayne La Pierre take a stand on whether we should have invaded Iraq to take away Saddam’s weapons or not and explain why. That issue should make his head explode.

  • CH wrote:

    The theory is that they pick important issues where there are conflicts among the appeals courts. Sometimes this shows a disagreement on interpretation of existing law and sometimes it means that society is not sure which way to go.

    Yeah, but then there is a difference in what issues a conservative court picks and what issues a liberal court picks.

    It’s not like any questions that are the subjects of conflict get resolved. When a court picks its cases, it reaches out for things it wants to decide. So lawyers in a specific area of law may feel that some question really needs to be decided in their area, but since the judges on the state or U.S. Supreme Court or what have you don’t include lawyers from that background (that field) they tend not to touch those issues because they find them boring or are inexpert at that area of law. It goes the same way along political lines. Liberals want certain questions resolved in favor of them, so they take the case when it comes, or conservatives do the same thing, however the court is constituted.

  • In every instance in the bill of rights, “people” refers to individuals, not the state governments. To rule that the 2nd amendment does not apply protect an individual right would make it the sole exception to that usage. The authors of the constitution were the best legal minds of the time and knew what they were doing.

    In the tenth amemdment for example: “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”

    Therefore it clearly was meant to protect more than just the states rights to organize militia.

    Like all rights, it is not absolute, and reasonable regulation is acceptable, but what the appealate court ruled was that it cannot be effectively regulated out of existence. It is entirely reasonable to restrict tanks and ICBM’s and the organization of private militias. It does not prohibit state and local restriction on the possession of guns by those shown to be morally or mentally unfit. It probably will be interpreted to allow states to apply reasonable standards for the demonstration of compentency in their use and safety before allowing arming oneself in public–but not to regulate it to the degree that the right cannot be effectively exercised at all. Self-defense is a fundamental natural right exercised by all of God’s creatures. To be free acquire the means to exercise it is a right not granted by the constitution, only recognized by it, and any failure of SCOTUS to reinforce that will diminish the constitution and SCOTUS, not the fundamental right itself.

  • O.K. if sawed off shotguns are not considered militia weapons, why were they issued in WW1 for trench guns and why is every cop in the States carrying one in his squad car?

    Lets face it, we got us a runaway government that need to concentrate on protecting this God loving nation from the enemy’s abroad and within, instead of nitpicking on our Constitutional rights as written by the fathers of this Country.

  • Every cop does not have sawed off shotgun. The shotguns they have, sometimes called trench guns, are identical to the one under my bed, purchased legally as the barrel is at least 18″ long.

  • After the Rodney King riots in LA the whole gun issue became very clear. Either the police are obligated to provide assistance when called or citizens are allowed to defend themselves. Since the police in that case decided they would not go into the rioted areas, then the law must allow citizens to arm themselves.

  • Let’s look at the issue from the source.

    “A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State.

    This refers to the original colonies rights to defend themselves against the “government“, and their ability to maintain an “army”, In the need to fight the federal government, or another state. It’s called self determination.

    the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

    This is a person’s right to throw off the oppression of the government that tries to impose it’s will on him…. I.E. The state, or federal government has no right to interfere with a person while on his property. When the government fails to abide by the rule of law, then the common man has the duty, and the right to overthrow that corrupt body…

    Our founding fathers knew that men corrupt government to suit their own ends without regard for the citizens. That is why they knew that a “free man” is a man that has the means to defend himself from the tyranny of the many. Just because you say it should be the way you want, Does not mean that it is JUSTICE.

    The opinion of the many shall never outweigh the RIGHT of the FEW.

  • “A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

    “…shall not be infringed” sounds very straightforward, no?

    I think that every law-abiding citizen should be able to purchase whatever is commercially available, right now. Semi-auto pistol, rifles, shotgun- doesn’t matter. They’re all firearms.

  • I don’t personally care to debate the relevance of a book, which has it’s supporters as well as detractors. I’ll leave KBronson to decide who gets to be credible or not, although he should know that Mr. Bellesiles quit and was not forced to resign. Furthermore, I specifically said the case went to SC on different grounds. From 1876 decision:

    “is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The second amendment declares that it shall not be infringed; but this, as has been seen, means no more than it shall not be infringed by Congress. This is one of the amendments that has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the national government, leaving the people to look for their protection against any violation by their fellow citizens of the rights it recognizes, to ‘internal police or municipal legislation, not surrendered or restrained by the Constitution of the United States.'”

    The central point of the decision was that state governments, or even municipal governments, could pass whatever legislation they desired without fear of federal sanction. While the case did imply a personal right to bear arms, it stated that if the right did exist, it came from a source other than the Constitution. Ergo, if a state wants to deny John Doe gun rights, it can do that.

  • hen in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

    He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

    He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

    He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

    He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

    He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

    He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

    He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

    He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

    He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

    He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

    He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

    He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

    He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

    For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

    For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

    For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

    For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

    For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

    For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

    For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

    For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

    For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

    He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

    He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

    He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

    He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

    He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

    In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

    Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

    RC635 try reading this, this is the real basis for the USA.

    We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

  • the realist, thanks for the history lesson and proving that you’ve mastered the divine right of cut and paste. You proved an earlier point, that it’s impossible to have a rational discussion on the subject. One can’t express a simple opinion without, apparently, having one’s patriotism questioned. Because as we all know, the founding fathers detested dissent.

  • It’s not a question of your patriotism, it a question of narcissism, and other wanting to impose what is best for other’s.

  • Simple opinions are the one’s that come from those that want to impose “their” view on others, with out considering why this country was designed to be a republic.

  • I see your point, however, I don’t personally have anything against law abiding citizens owning guns. And as I said, there is only a tiny percentage of people out there who want to totally ban guns. They would not even be, in my opinion, in the mainstream of any political group. While I don’t follow every speech by every left-leaning politician, I can’t think of any example where an influential Democrat said they wanted to ban all guns for everyone. I believe that unfettered access to, what can admittedly be a sloppy term, weapons of war is not good. I can’t personally see any reason for the general public to have automatic weapons, high powered military style sniper rifles, etc. To me it’s not a question of gun ownership rights in it’s most basic form. I would venture to say that the founding fathers would have no issues with your handgun. However, I’m not sure they would necessarily approve of a machine gun. Modern weapons are beyond the realm of understanding of men that lived 240 some odd years ago. At that time, the best shooters could get 2, maybe 3 shots off every minute.

  • Simple opinions are the one’s that come from those that want to impose “their” view on others, with out considering why this country was designed to be a republic.

    You might be taking the term “simple opinions” the wrong way.

  • RC635 is right to point out that I mischaracterized the Cruishank decision. It was not that decision which recognized the 14th amendment as empowering the federal government in enforcing the protections of the bill of rights agaisnt the states. The decision contains language which makes the case for that, but then backed off, stating that the citizens have fundamental rights that the states are duty bound to recognize that do not come from the constitution, but predate it, but did not recognize a federal power to enforce them–seeing the bill of rights only as a set of prohibitions against federal incroachment.

    I stand corrected on that point.

    That was overturned by latter decisions. That is why Miranda warnings apply to state and local police, it is the reason for Brown vs. Board of Education, for court rulings against official school prayers, and federal enforcment against civil rights violations by local police.

    Cruishank however, does not find the second amendment to not refer to an individual right. RC635 is wrong on that point. It found that it, along with the first amendment, only prohibitied federal interference and did not empower the federal government to enforce those rights against state encroachment. The error of that is established jurisprudence, at least in every other element of the Bill of Rights. Will they make the second amendment an exception?

    The record is clear on “Arming America”—the author was professionally disgraced, lost his job, and stripped of his prize–the book is factitious. People can differ on it’s value only because in this post-modern age people differ on the value of truth itself.

  • That is where you miss the point….

    When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    When the oppressed, have no option, how can they be free?

  • We know what the ruling is going to be already….that people can have any weapon they want no matter what……eveyone should have granade launchers etc…ridiculous but that is how it will be with this Court.

  • In order to fullfill the fundamental object of presenting the possibility of a credible resistance force against a tyrannical government, the second amendment must permit just the weapons of war that some find so shocking–fully automatic weapons–as those are the standard issue arms of combat today.

    The US Army goes further in recognizing the self-defense rights of Iraqi’s and Afghani’s than the US government does American citizens—they do no need to get fingerprinted and pay a 200 tax or get the local police chiefs permission to keep a fully automatic AK-47 for the protection of thier family, home and business–and for resistance against despotism.

  • America used to be about self-reliance, now its about gov’t reliance. When is personal responsibility going to make a come back?

  • Perhaps in the future I will check in on the veracity of the claims from one source. In the meantime, thanks for letting me know I don’t value the truth and/or honesty.

  • the realist, despite your claims, i do see your point. i’m just not sure you see mine. if americans decided to rebel against the government, we could not get enough weapons, from legal sources, to accomplish that. no matter what part of the country we are talking about, john q public doesn’t have the access to weapons to do that. there simply isn’t enough gun shops with the needed armament to overcome the us military. america can be a funny place sometimes. we’re probably the only country that looks at increasing violence and says, “you know what we need, more guns.” it’s kinda like looking at deaths in car accidents and saying, “we need less safety features on cars.”

  • Do you all really feel that America has gotten that bad that you consider it to be “tyrannical” and “despotic?” Furthermore, to compare America to the current state of Afghanistan and Iraq, is simply amazing. That’s quite a leap. And who claimed that automatic weapons were so “shocking?” Those are some great straw man arguments.

  • RC635:

    You explain the elements for my argument nicely–they just aren’t tied together.

    America is not a tyranny nor is it despotic–therefore it is possible for the public to arm now. People could never go to gun shops to obtain the arms to resist an already existing despostism—they will close down those shops first.

    America is a nation of men and original sin is universal–it is not confined to other nations. All the things that make despotism a perrenial condition exist here as much as anywhere else. The same passions that brought the Athenian democracy to an end live in us as well. It could happen some day if we are complacent.

    The last bulwark against the imposition of tyrrany, when all the other barriers fail, is the propostion of an insurgent population, ungovernable because in more comfortable times the people made a habit of arming themselves. Any armed force can suppress an unarmed population. There is no force, other than one actively using genocidal weapons of mass destruction, that can control and suppress 300 million armed people in rebellion.

  • With regard to the Miller case, it’s very important to note that it was a DEFAULT JUDGEMENT where Miller’s side never appeared before the Court (Miller was dead by the time the case was heard).

    Here’s the operative language from that opinion:

    In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a “shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length” at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense.

    Note these words: “absense of any evidence,” “at this time”. In other words, that means “nobody said that it is.”

    Also note “ordinary military equipment”. That is an unambiguous ruling that the same guns the military issues are protected. So… an M-16 with a grenade launcher, a 9mm pistol, etc. are absolutely not subject to being banned.

  • You explain the elements for my argument nicely–they just aren’t tied together.

    America is not a tyranny nor is it despotic–therefore it is possible for the public to arm now. People could never go to gun shops to obtain the arms to resist an already existing despostism—they will close down those shops first.

    America is a nation of men and original sin is universal–it is not confined to other nations. All the things that make despotism a perrenial condition exist here as much as anywhere else. The same passions that brought the Athenian democracy to an end live in us as well. It could happen some day if we are complacent.

    The last bulwark against the imposition of tyrrany, when all the other barriers fail, is the propostion of an insurgent population, ungovernable because in more comfortable times the people made a habit of arming themselves. Any armed force can suppress an unarmed population. There is no force, other than one actively using genocidal weapons of mass destruction, that can control and suppress 300 million armed people in rebellion.

  • They will probably do something like claiming the 2nd Amendment only pertains to state’s militias, National Guard and such but that the 9th and 10th Amendments allow for wider interpretations. Rule #1 of the current SCOTUS: a ruling is only as important as it is important to the well being of the Global Corporatists.

  • Law enforcement is more than capable of controlling the civil population. It is possible to overwhelm and cause localized short term chaos, but when back up arrives in the form of the National Guard “order” will be restored.

    Our best, in fact only, protection is that both LE and military are sworn to support and defend the constitution as their first duty. The bush syncophants (Gonzalez, Rumsfeld, etc) who treat that oath an an inconvenience have so far not been successful in controlling the troops. Illegal and unconstitutional actions ordered from the top have the dynamics of a criminal conspiracy. Fairly quickly someone who knows right from wrong hears about the activity and exposes it. We know about detention without charges, torture, illegal wiretapping, etc. Sunshine is the best cleanser. Insurrection is fantasy. The constitutional solution is impeachment.

  • Wow, quite the hot button topic.

    Now what are the odds that a SCOTUS front loaded by W would take away your guns?

    About even I would guess.

    So is the NRA ready to get in line with the liberals and demand impeachment if the SCOTUS takes away thier guns?

  • I’ve really never understood why this is all so hard to understand. The “militia” question, and the idea that citizens can defend themselves against “a government run amuck (sic)” as commenter DB said, became irrelevant, historical curiosities the very same day the Congress decided to authorize a standing army. All insane invocations/celebrations of Randy Weaver and the Branch Davidians aside, the simple fact is that if the government decides to take your guns, the guns are gonna get took – from cold, dead fingers or otherwise. Similarly, the idea that we will ever have to rely on an armed citizenry to take care of a threat to national security (domestic OR foreign) is no longer worth discussing. That said:

    I’m a big supporter of responsible private gun ownership – but that’s as far as I go. My libertarian streak doesn’t lead me to some crazy idea that we’re still living in some kind of frontier society in which your personal liberty is only as viable as the guns you’re carrying and your willingness to use them. This is where the “well-regulated” verbiage comes in: the right to gun ownership is subject to whatever regulation the properly constituted government of the day deems necessary, short of an all-out ban. If the Supreme Court decides that a local, state, or national government has imposed regulations that are so onerous that they amount to a ban, well, then, I might disagree, but in that case it will be the duty of that government to craft responsible legislation that conforms to the current Court’s ruling. It seems to me surpassingly improbable that this Court – or any Court – will affirm an unlimited right to private ownership of firearms, meaning that “responsible private gun ownership” will remain available. Whatever the ruling, it will certainly result in those who are firmly determined to possess a weapon to protect their homes from criminals still being able to do so, wherever they live. Since the right is not unlimited, that may mean that people who live in places where the properly constituted government doesn’t deem it necessary or prudent are not allowed to carry in public, but those people who think otherwise can try to change the governments where they live. And that seems to me an acceptable situation.

  • There was never a time when citizens defending themselves against the government became a “historical curiosity”. If anything, historical perspective proves quite the contrary.

    I believe that the founders, being very practical men, meant exactly what they said and put it in language that should not be circumvented. Having just been through a revelution where arms had been very difficult to come by and also living in a time where a Winchester rifle over the door was a common as having a fireplace or oil lamp, I cannot imagine the founders ever envisioned an age where people would even live in a home that was unarmed, let alone, whole communities, cities and towns where people would ever believer rhetoric such as “You are more likely to injure or kill a friend or family member with a weapon than a burgler or criminal.”

    When they said the people should have the right to bear arms, I firmly believe that they meant exactly that. The American People, in perpetuity have the right to keep arms in their homes and that the Government should never pass any law to keep that from happening.

    Wow, paraphrased, that last paragraph was pretty much what they said isn’t it?

  • How is freedom to be maintained by a well regulated militia if a Governor under a corrupt president declares martial law?

    Is the corrupt governor to allow anyone to have a rifle from the armory or is it more likely such a tyrant would decide only “loyal” citizens should be armed?

    For those who argue armies can easily disarm an angry populace, can I ask why Iraq isn’t pacified by now? Do we think Americans are less stubborn/brave/courageous/violent/whatever the reason?
    Would we have so much less tenacity?

    Governments fear armed popular uprisings. When governments fall, it’s usually when armed masses surround important buildings. Sometimes its armies, sometimes its peasants.

    Bush’s claim to be able to take command in the case of a national emergency of his own definition should give all of us pause when we think keeping weapons only in under the control of government appointees is a good idea.

    Liberals advocating gun rights… Has the devil noticed its getting nippy down below?

  • If having a gun in your belt kept you safer, cops would never get shot.

    I can’t believe a civilized society would even have this debate.

  • This is a slippery slope.

    I wouldn’t be too surprised if the Court sides with DC. Since they have shown a willingness to disregard the Constitution and to restrict individual rights. Not to mention disarming the public aids those in power.

  • I’m not against citizens owning guns nor am I against reasonable regulation of individual rights to own guns. This is an interesting discussion.
    I think people need to recognize the distinction between the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the USA. The Declaration is the basis for the War of Independence, but has no bearing on the basic underpinnings of our government.
    When I read the 2nd amendment of the US Constitution, I don’t see anything there that seems to be a provision for citizens overthrowing the government of the US. I have heard this interpretation many times over the years, but I think people are reading that into the amendment when it isn’t really there. And in fact, given that a government, some have said, is by definition the organization in a society that has a “monopoly on violence”, it seems reasonable and normal that no constitution written would ever explicitly provide terms for armed insurrections.
    Also while I sympathize with the sentitment about the importance for a permanent threat of the possibility that the citizenry may “cast down” the government (if it gets tyrannical), if it ever gets to that, I don’t think gun laws really would apply any more. We would find a way to get arms from foreign sources, if necessary.

  • “If having a gun in your belt kept you safer, cops would never get shot.” — # 68

    And if not having one in your belt made you safer, no one would ever have been shot.

    A gun is a tool. A tool can be used by anyone for any purpose, right or wrong. I wonder how many construction (home or professional) accidents a doctors office or emergency room have seen? Nail guns, hammers, saws. What about those that go unreported?

  • I believe it is quite obvious that the second amendment speaks of the right of individual citizens to own guns.

    I further believe, it is obvious that the right of individuals to own guns was granted as a “protection against government.” That if our govermernt ever became deaf to the majority of citizens, ever began a fall to “despotism”, that we are directed to use these weapons to restore individual rights and liberties.

    It frightens me when any government begins to fear its’ citizens–indeed, I know of no better indication that such a government is moving in the direction of despotism …

    Stacking both the republican and democratic parties with stooges for the shadow government gives me no right to participate in a government of the people, by the people and for the people–I wonder why they think so many as so stupid so as not to notice?

    Regards,
    JS

  • I think that we will see 2 differing opinions on the amendment:

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State(,)
    and you have to look at what is being defined as State, is it an individual state in the Union, under the auspices of the Articles of Confederation, controlled, maintained and operated under the provisions of its’ own people, has a necessity to maintain a standing militia to secure its own borders and people. This was when the state had more control over its people than the federal system did, at the time when the federation was a Very loosely controlled system nationally. The interpretation of the (S)tate now implies that it is a soverign Nation State, the unified Country.

    the right of the people to keep and bear Arms(,)
    that the right of the people of these state(s), had the right to keep individual arms to protect themselves, provide sustanence and in case of state militia need, had the means to protect the state and State.

    shall not be infringed.
    The state has the right to maintain a militia, now National Guard, and that the people of the state have the right to keep personal arms for personal use and protection and to help in the make up and armament of such guard.

    these two items are so intwined within society 225 years ago, that you could not seperate personal firearm possession and entry into the state militia. Now, we view that the same person, seperately from the militia, has the same right to personal defense and protection of self and (s)tate. Therefore since D.C. is still part of the Union, under the articles of the constitution, the second amendment applies to the defense of self and state, allowing personal ownership.

  • “This year* will go down in history! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!”
    Adolf Hitler

  • The 2nd Amendment wording must be looked at grammatically to be understood correctly.
    It is a complex sentence with a dependent clause. “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state” has no meaning without the independent clause which includes the subject (the most important part of the sentence).
    It could have been written:
    The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, because without arms in the hands of the people, there can be no militia to protect the state. the “well regulated militia” has little meaning in terms of the right. The right is assured because without it there cannot be any militia.
    Were this country invaded, it would take more than just our soldiers to stop the invasion. We haven’t had much experince with that, except we did use arms against the British, didn’t we. Without the arms we would not have the Constituion, would we.

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