Shredding the Fourth Amendment

August 12, 2007

In describing the resent FISA “revisions,” Newsweek’s Jonathan Alter gets shrill.

I hate to sound melodramatic about it, but while everyone was at the beach or “The Simpsons Movie” on the first weekend in August, the U.S. government shredded the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution, the one requiring court-approved “probable cause” before Americans can be searched or spied upon. This is not the feverish imagination of left-wing bloggers and the ACLU. It’s the plain truth of where we’ve come as a country, at the behest of a president who has betrayed his oath to defend the Constitution and with the acquiescence of Democratic congressional leaders who know better. Historians will likely see this episode as a classic case of fear — both physical and political — trumping principle amid the ancient tension between personal freedom and national security. […]

Democrats obtained a sunset clause that requires the whole thing to be reauthorized in six months. But real damage has been done. At a minimum, we have suspended the Fourth Amendment for the time being.

That sums things up quite nicely, actually. In related news…

* Anonymous Liberal explains why the new FISA law is even worse than it sounds.

* The Washington Post offers a fascinating tick-tock account of how the legislation was proposed, debated, and passed.

* The New York Times editorial board accuses the Bush White House of intentionally keeping the details muddled so as to mislead lawmakers and the public.

* Kevin Drum wades through the details to discover that there is “virtually no oversight on NSA’s data collection at all.”

August 12, 2007 at 4:10 pm

Hey moron, you spelled “recent” wrong on the first line of your blog. Get a brain.

Ah, a prototypical Loyal Bushie Brownshirt. How very unrefreshing.

I think “resent” is a Freudian slip. I resent that Bush and Congress shredded the Fourth Amendment.

We haven’t suspended the 4th; we have buried it. Any “corrections” that Congress might want to make in 6 months (even supposing in manages to do so) will never become law by simple reason of presidential veto. And, by the time we have a better president and better Congress — supposing we do, which is not a given — the data on everyone will have been collected and stored and nobody is gonna give them up, even if the additions to them will be accumulated legitimately.

If you think you might want to eat your steak, it’s best not to give it to your doberman in the first place. Getting it back is gonna be difficult, at best; getting it back intact will be impossible.

CB, are you getting enough sleep? You misspelled “recent” here and used the year “2002” instead of 2000 in the Sunday Discussion Group posting. Maybe it’s time for a vacation from all of your hard work (the Bushies are exhausting!).

With respect to the NYT and WaPo articles on this, I wish someone would fill in the blanks on what, exactly, happened on August 2nd that pushed this bill into the “done deal” category. Both articles careen right up to it, and then slam on the brakes.

Several things occur to me. One is that I don’t know how anyone will ever have the standing to litigate the constitutionality of this legislation, which means that either it stands, or it has to be legislatively undone, preferably by repeal.

Another thing that bothers me is why the Democrats have not yet seen that there are huge negative consequences to rushing to legislate things just because the WH goes into major tantrum mode. Time and again they have had the power to stop these things from moving forward, and time and again, have allowed themselves to be bullied into giving in. As much as the legislation itself has been wrong on so many levels, when you have the power to slow down or stop something, and you don’t, you have to share the blame – you have no moral ground on which to stand and blame others.

As for oversight, please don’t make me laugh. It has been the goal of this WH to systematically eliminate as much, if not all, of the oversight of its activities and actions as possible – and they have succeeded to a degree that tells me that there will be no stopping them as long as they hold the Oval Office.

And because I truly think they believed they would have a permanent hold on power, they have acted in consistently short-sighted ways, and probably still do not get that it won’t always be Republicans who hold the reins of power.

As an American, I do not want any president, of any party – including my own – to have that much power and that little oversight.

[oh – and Joe? Thanks for making such an articulate contribution to the discussion. BTW, “Schmo” is not spelled “S-c-h-n-o-o-r-e.”]

Hey, Joe “worthless f__king whore” Schnoore @ #1, maybe while you are spell-checking the internet, you should write to the Jerusalem Post too since they posted “British Lawmakers: Britian (sic) should talk to Hamas. Maybe you are missing a cross-burning or a brown shirt rally somewhere you reich wing scumbag. Gee, I hope my spelling was alright you Flush Limpbaugh fan.

That’s Flush Rimjaughb, tko.

Sorry for being OT, regular posters, sometimes stupid people just piss me off. I’m not of the same cut as Pelosi and Reid where I just keeping taking bullshit without comment.

Joe Schnoore @ 1: When you crank out the volume of work Benen does, 7 days a week, let me know so I can check your spelling and grammar. Until then, be polite.

CB, sorry for being impolite to what was obviously a visitor @ #1. Frankly, yours is my favorite website and the first website I go to each day for information and I got a little defensive. The commenters seem far more intelligent here than other sites. Beep52 @ 10 did a much more appropriate job.

It is interesting to speculate what the right-wing would have done to modify the constitution if they hadn’t had a “war” to use as an excuse to do so. What reasons would have been invented?
Now that a precedent has been set, this crowd will undoubtedly continue their modifications on behalf of Fascism, Royalists, etc., every time they get back in power. ‘Course they’re not out of power, —yet, and my paranoid fantasies make me wonder if—-, nahhh.

This is my favorite political blog…not just for the blog, but for the commentators too. Logic and facts tend to prevail…as a rule, which is what keeps me coming back.

The topic here is the loss of our Fourth ammendment …which could prove to be permanent. Why isn’t the country up in arms over this? Why aren’t our legislative servants blowing their tops? Why doesn’t most of the country even know what has happened? Why didn’t Feinstein know what she was doing …or did she? Her aide said : “Well its only for 6 months”, but we all know how difficult it is to close the door once the foot is in it. Particularly when the foot is cushioned with major payoffs. Carpetbagger tries to ferret out some of the answers …but we still don’t know. Do we?

CB: I, too, am sorry for the verbal abuse you were subjected to by a probable one-time poster, Joe Schnoore @ #1 above, over a simple typo. Your regular posters, including yours truly, are very appreciative of your tireless contributions while hosting our favorite blog, The Carpetbagger Report, usually seven days a week with only occasional help from your friends on rare weekends.

For me, one of the best features of The Carpetbagger Report is the usual high quality of the comments. Sometimes there is a small debate on a tangential point, but there are rarely any garden-variety trolls here. It’s interesting that when a troll finally shows up (#1 above) his comment doesn’t address anything that anyone actually said, but instead makes a big deal out of a typo.

I second the comments of beep52 @ #10.

On the subject of the shredding of the fourth amendment of the U.S. Constitution, I, too, am very concerned that the Democratic-majority Congress caved in to the George W. Bush tirades with the promise to review and, perhaps, repeal (?) this abomination, within six months. I’m just grateful that both my senators, Hillary R. Clinton and Chuck Schumer, and my local congressman, Anthony D. Weiner, voted “no” from the very start on this affront to our liberties.

I suggest the Democrats the motto: “May we restore true democracy to our shores in 2008!!”

I suggest the Democrats the motto: “May we restore true democracy to our shores in 2008!!” — Jeeseaw, @16

Make it a visual: a cross-roads post… One arm, pointing to the left, and a donkey leading the destination: Democracy Restoration. One arm, pointing to the right, and an elephant herding the Authoritarian Entrenchment.

Re the piece of string @1: When one can’t argue on merits, one uses ad hominem attacks.It’s the last resort of the mentally challenged.

With their shocking surrender over President Bush’s draconian new FISA law last weekend, Congressional Democrats snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. They not only had the votes to safeguard American civil liberties and prevent the legalization of past Bush White House criminality. On FISA as we knew it before August 5, 2007, Democrats had the law – and public opinion – on their side.

For the details, see:
“Democrats Snatch Defeat from Jaws of Victory on FISA.”

I have entered a strange time in my life, and I’m probably not the only one. I’ve told the Democrats not to contact me anymore about money, petitions, etc. I’ve been a Democrat all my life, and now I feel lost, COMPLETELY bereft of hope that the Democrats will protect Americans and our rights. I’ve always been politically active to some extent, some times more than others, because of our history and the need to protect our form of Democracy.

At least I can say that during most of my adult life, America was a country we could be proud of, even though there have been terrible abuses of the system at times. But there was always hope that the abuses would be righted under our justice system. And most of them were.

But once certain lines are crossed, once freedoms are taken away with the willing cooperation of the legislature, I don’t see any hope that we’ll recover our original strengths during the rest of my life. I’m 68 years old.

At least I can tell my grandchildren about the time before American values were destroyed by one G.W Bush, his administration, and the legislature that was elected because they promised to do something about it.

For years, I’ve told my father that I didn’t particularly like Democrats, I just disliked them less than Republicans. There’s been a lot of well-deserved criticism of Democratic politicians lately, in part because folks with a real appreciation for democracy in general and America in particular now have a place to exchange ideas and voice opinions — places like this. As has often been noted here, that doesn’t mean there’s no difference between the two major parties.

As long as Republicans control things, I see no hope. If Dems control things, I think there’s at least a chance everyday working stiffs can influence the party more to our liking. Markos Moulitas has done a good job recently of expressing the dissatisfaction regular folks have with the DLC and many Dem pols while noting their willingness and ability to do something about it. Seems to me about the best shot we have.

To quote a dear friend of mine, Mr. Jefferson:

“What country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance?”

The core issue here is that the current crop of cumbersome yay-hoos in our Government, whether Republican or Democrat, have forsaken not only the Fourth, but fairly much the entire collection of Amendments that make up the Bill of Rights. The executive and Legislative branches have finally demonstrated bipartisanship—at the expense of the Republic, the Constitution, and the People.

It is well past time to set the partisan bickerings aside; America will never be a “Republicanistic” nation, nor will it ever be a “Democratistic” nation. It has always been, is now, and should whatever gods may be are willing, will always be BOTH. The Founders knew this all too well when they estabished the Separation Clause, so as to prevent both the theocratic fringe elements of Conservatism and the State-centric fringe elements of Liberalism from attaining too much power in Government.

If the Administration cannot be held in check against its audacious flaunting of the Law—and if the Congress cannot be turned away from its estabished precedent of making it legal to flaunt the same said Law—then the horrendous burden of upholding that Law must, by default, fall upon the People themselves….

I guess the good news is we get another shot at it in 6 months time. The one thing the Dem’s did right was force a rather short sunset clause into the bill. It expires in February as it is and Pelosi is already making noise about wanting to speed that up a little more. I think they may be getting the message.

Has any of all of these goings-on got anything to do with the supposed resignation of Karl Rove at the end of this month?

I’ve been a Democrat all my life, and now I feel lost, COMPLETELY bereft of hope that the Democrats will protect Americans and our rights.

I’m not completely bereft of hope, and I’m generally happy with my own congresspeople (Durbin / Obama / Gutierrez).

But Democrats as a whole need to stop acting like pus$ies.

The recent FISA flap is merely one more disappointment in a long, long line of missteps, re-directs and capitulations. (Not to minimize the importance of this particular capitulation, which I do agree was a major blow to the 4th amendment … just to place it in a larger context that’s been unfolding for a decade.)

They play prevent defense instead of attacking. And every football fan knows how well a prevent defense works …

1. On August 12th, 2007 at 4:10 pm, Joe Schnoore said:
Hey moron, you spelled “recent” wrong on the first line of your blog. Get a brain.

Hey, arsewipe, perhaps you should check your reading skills.

Even if CB didn’t mean it the way he said it, it is still technically correct to state that these FISA “revisions” were re-sent. As in, sent again, you unsentient Putsch fellating shill.

Smarter brain dead ditto monkeys, please…

There was a sunset clause in the Patriot Act as well Remember?

All this talk of “shredding the Constitution” has happened long, long ago. For more than 20 years a portion of the population has been subject to warrentless wiretaps, unreasonable search and seizure, confiscation of property, excessive punishments including forced “confessions” and the majority of Americans didn’t give two shits. Only when it affects everyone, now it matters? FIrst they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist indeed. What did you think the “War on Drugs” was really about?

I hate to sound melodramatic about it, but while everyone was at the beach or “The Simpsons Movie” on the first weekend in August, the U.S. government shredded the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution, the one requiring court-approved “probable cause” before Americans can be searched or spied upon. This is not the feverish imagination of left-wing bloggers and the ACLU. It’s the plain truth of where we’ve come as a country, at the behest of a president who has betrayed his oath to defend the Constitution and with the acquiescence of Democratic congressional headers and leaders who know better. Historians will likely see this episode as a classic case of fear — both physical and political — trumping principle amid the ancient tension between personal freedom and national security.

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