Special exemptions (rights?) for religious ministries

The New York Times is running a terrific series, which started yesterday, on the sometimes-extraordinary benefits extended to religious organizations, which their counterparts, including non-profit organizations, cannot legally receive. A religious day care center, for example, is entitled to tax-breaks and regulatory exemptions that a secular day care center isn’t eligible for.

The NYT series has already included some fascinating anecdotal examples, but one from yesterday stood out.

[Ohio attorney J. Jeffrey Heck’s] client was a middle-aged novice training to become a nun in a Roman Catholic religious order in Toledo. She said she had been dismissed by the order after she became seriously ill — including a diagnosis of breast cancer.

In her complaint, the novice, Mary Rosati, said she had visited her doctor with her immediate supervisor and the mother superior. After the doctor explained her treatment options for breast cancer, the complaint continued, the mother superior announced: “We will have to let her go. I don’t think we can take care of her.”

Some months later Ms. Rosati was told that the mother superior and the order’s governing council had decided to dismiss her after concluding that “she was not called to our way of life,” according to the complaint. Along with her occupation and her home, she lost her health insurance, Mr. Heck said.

Rosati sued the diocese for firing her because of her illness. Had she worked for any business in America, she would have prevailed — the Americans with Disabilities Act offers protections against this kind of treatment. But Rosati’s case was thrown out of court; a federal judge ruled that “the First Amendment requires churches to be free from government interference in matters of church governance and administration.”

There are rules and laws that apply to workplaces, but if it’s a religious workplace, the rules don’t apply.

It’s not just about who a ministry can hire and fire.

Legislators and regulators are not the only people in government who have drafted special rules for religious organizations. Judges, too, have carved out or preserved safe havens that shield religious employers of all faiths from most employee lawsuits, from laws protecting pensions and providing unemployment benefits, and from laws that give employees the right to form unions to negotiate with their employers.

The NYT series, which started yesterday and continues today, points to a series of rather startling examples of religious organizations enjoying exemptions from all kinds of laws, simply because they’re religious. There’s a lot to this, of course, but two quick thoughts immediately came to mind.

One, it’s a little easier to buy into the rationale behind these special rights when ministries are entirely private, but let’s not forget that many of these same religious groups want public funds, either through private school vouchers, grants from Bush’s faith-based initiative, or both. In each instance, the organizations insist that they’re entitled to the taxpayer money and there’s no reason for them to accept any of the strings (i.e., accountability) that generally comes with public funding.

And two, remind me again why conservatives believe that there’s some kind of “war on religion” underway? When ministries enjoy financial, employment, and regulatory breaks that secular organizations can only dream of, doesn’t that pretty thoroughly debunk the religious right’s talking points about anti-faith persecution?

And there is nothing quite as entertaining as listening to Pat Robertson, et al whining about how the tax code discriminates against religious institutions by stifiling their free speech.

Let’s get rid of the religious classification in the tax code. They can be 501(c)(3)’s and live with the restrictions, or they can be for profit entities and not have to worry about any restrictions. Be like good ol Dr Gene Whatshisname(?) who told the IRS, “IF you want to take me tax status, come and get it.” They did and just kept on doing what he was doing until he died

  • And three, who exactly is going to follow a vocation when your church can dump you on the slightest pretext?

    Aren’t we having a hard enough time getting good people to become priests, ministers and nuns?

    Or maybe I’m missing the point. Which is to take wealth away from the secular world and protect it from any sort of taxation or dimunition.

  • There are rules and laws that apply to workplaces, but if it’s a religious workplace, the rules don’t apply.

    In essence, within our society with its multiple government-guaranteed protections, we have shadow societies where those rules don’t apply.

    And maybe that’s what Separation is supposed to look like. At least in the case of a religion beating up its own — like Catholics shunning a novice nun — the government ought to leave them be. If you don’t like how the religion is treating you, it’s time to leave the shadow society.

    The problem, of course, is that sometimes the shadow societies mistreat those who did not choose to live in them — say, prison inmates at the mercy of a chaplain — yet the government is unable to reach in to protect them.

  • And two, remind me again why conservatives believe that there’s some kind of “war on religion” underway?

    I will translate: “War on Religion” means people expressing views, or living their lives, or even thinking in ways that don’t strictly follow the Big Book o’ “Conservative” Rules. “War on Religion” means religious “conservatives” want more favours and attention and influence and if they don’t get ’em, they’ll get nasty. “War on Religion” means the glob of paranoid thoughts and fascist yearnings the religious “conservatives” use for brains think they’re under attack because people continue to ignore the Big Book o’ “Conservative” Rules, therefore they can strike back against any perceived threat. Be glad they usually stick to words. Unless they decide that to save lives they have to kill everyone in an abortion clinc.

    I bet if the government did say “OK, we won’t bother you if you don’t bother us,” (by asking for money) Falwell and his ilk would call Jihad against…every one.

    And does any one think that Muslim religious organizations enjoy this sort of autonomy and favouritism? [snerk]

    tAiO

    @2 Lance, you’re right. I’ve been reading articles about how hard it is for the RC to find people who will answer “the call” for years. And what the f^ck happened to the idea of Chrisitan charity? Too expensive I guess.

  • The situation with the Catholic church is not quite the same as with WalMart. The problem largely stems from a decision made over half a century ago when the Catholic church opted not to participate in Social Security.

    This has had many repurcussions, but one of them is that some segments of the church, including the Archdiocese in question, are essentially self insuring when it comes to catastrophic health care and long term disability.

    I’m not trying to say that the situation is not terrible, I’m just pointing out that the church is looking at a novice, who will almost assuredly never become a nun, and a limited budget, which includes medical care for retired nuns, that is strained to the breaking point.

    In terms of numbers, the Catholic Church in the US would seem to be flourishing. My own parish has grown by nearly 1,000 households in the last 7 years. But while we used to have the phrase ‘check book Catholic’, I think we now need to coin the phrase ‘virtual Catholic’. Even as membership has soared, giving has declined sharply since the early 90’s – well before sexual scandals hit the headlines.

    I’d say it has more to do with the church’s neo-conservative shift than anything else. There are seemingly a lot of fundie types who find something appealing in a Christian faith whose history literally spans more than 17 centuries – but don’t want to abandon the convenience of ala’ cart worship (basically, hate gays, scream about abortion, and ignore everything else said by someone you reportedly accept as God).

    Why should the average, secular, leftie care? Because Catholic charities are the largest social safety net left in the country. And, seemingly thanks to the same shift that has left the mentally unhinged in charge in Washington, the organization behind that social safety net is rapidly reaching the point where it cannot even take care of its own.

    Think about it a moment. Does anyone really believe that a nun leading a religious order would make a callous decision of extended profit or convenience? Right or wrong, she almost certainly concluded that they did not have the resources to care for a woman in need. And that means big trouble when you have a middle class that is fighting to stop losing ground, a poverty class that is *growing* during economic expansion, and a tiny ‘have’ class that seems to have no moral standards whatsover.

    -jjf

  • The ultimate example of PC has to be religion. Leaders and followers can say anything they want about others — including unsubstantiated and outrageous claims — but others can say nothing about them. Meanwhile, the faithful run amok uncontested. So, reading something on the subject that isn’t brown-nose journalism from a major newspaper is quite refreshing. The sooner we quit being afraid to tell it like it is with regard to religion, the saner this world will be.

  • With the Church’s history she’s lucky they didn’t burn her at the stake. The Church seems to try to keep their orders self-sufficient financially (while obedient to Church rules) so that they can’t tap into the enormous wealth the overall Church is hoarding. The Vatican is a huge financial scandal waiting to happen.

    Hearing about a religion mistreating people always elicits an outraged response. Every time. As if by now it’s not expected. It’s like church roofs collapsing. We keep thinking it shouldn’t happen.

  • re: 6

    It’s exactly the same reasoning as Walmart’s. Or are you trying to say such a large organization as the Catholic church can’t afford to buy insurance? It’s more likely they crunched the numbers and said “we can save so many pennies if we don’t buy major medical insurance for everyone”.

    Hell – aren’t there Catholic hospitals in the USA????

    And BTW –
    Breast cancer survival rates by stage of disease:
    100% of women survive breast cancer if it is detected before it starts to spread in the US (The American Cancer Society)
    98% of women survive breast cancer if it is detected while it is smaller than 2cm in diameter and hasn’t spread in the US (The American Cancer Society)
    88% of women survive breast cancer if it is detected while it is 2-5cm in diameter and has spread to axillary lymph nodes in the US (The American Cancer Society)
    76% of women survive breast cancer if it is detected even over 5cm in diameter if it hasn’t spread to axillary lymph nodes in the US (The American Cancer Society)
    76% of women survive breast cancer if it is detected while it is 2-5cm in diameter and has spread to axillary lymph nodes in the US (The American Cancer Society)
    56% of women survive breast cancer if it is detected after it has spread to axillary lymph nodes and to axillary tissues in the US (The American Cancer Society)
    49% of women survive breast cancer if it is detected after it has attached itself to the chest wall and chest lymph nodes in the US (The American Cancer Society)
    16% of women survive breast cancer if it is detected after it has spread to other parts of the body such as bone, lung or liver in the US (The American Cancer Society)

  • First, let me be frank: I am one of the people who believe that 99% of the world’s ills are a direct result of sky-god religion. I find few things in our world as troublesome as sky-god religion. If I ran the world, I would outlaw every last religion that subscribes to any concept of a sky-god.

    That being said, in direct response to the antecdote above, I would have to agree with the ruling of the court. See, that is the whole damn problem with the whole damn mess. How do we **know** god didn’t tell the mother superior that this woman was ‘not called’ (or mailed, or texted…).

    I agree whole-heatedly with the concept of the piece however. The government should not be in the business of protecting or persecuting those who impose ignorance upon themselves. These groups should have NO distinction what so ever beyond non-profit and for-profit. Period.

  • I know PhilW, you’re quoting from the ACS, but really you should have moved the phrase in the US to the front of the statistic. Putting the phrase at the end of the sentence really messes up the meaning.

    And yes as a Roman Catholic I’m very disappointed that preserving the Church’s wealth means more to them than preserving one nun’s health.

  • Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Unlike Walmart, the Church is not organized like a fortune 500 company.

    A parish or order has to be largely self sustaining. Something like 18 cents on the dollar trickles up from a parish to and archdiocese, and some portion of that trickles up to the international church heirarchy. An area that cannot financially sustain a parish (south central Los Angeles comes to mind) generally exist by annually asking other parishes in the archdiocese for special collections.

    So, individual entities are more like small non-profits. And, because of some broad decisions made long ago, have fewer public resources to tap than many other non profits. Presumably there are plenty of Catholic orders that could afford this woman’s care, but almost certainly the particular order in question could not.

    The idea that there is some uber weath consolidated in the giant Catholic church is certainly not new, but is about as firmly based in reality as Mel Gibson’s drunken gibberish.

    Think about it, Catholic ministries aren’t just the largest (financially speaking) social safety net in the US. Catholic hospitals are a large enough portion of the US medical system that the GAO says they hold the cost of medical care to US consumers down about 18%. And, forget just care – look at medical research. Since ’75, Catholic charities have donated more to Cancer research than any other organization but the US government.

    Between feeding the poor and subsidizing everything from education (at all levels) to health care – just how much pie can their be for graft and corruption?

    One can easily find fault with the Catholic Church, but a hell of a lot of progressive ideas have largely been fuelled by a (largely blue collar / middle class) segment of America that has historically felt compelled by God to give time and money in the service of others. When that organization starts having trouble caring for even its own (and we are *not* talking about just one incident – many orders have been struggling to meet their long term care obligations for years), look out. When we stop giving enough to susidize the nation, someone else has to step up or we are going to be looking at even more widespread poverty.

    -jjf

  • The idea that there is some uber weath consolidated in the giant Catholic church is certainly not new, but is about as firmly based in reality as Mel Gibson’s drunken gibberish.
    -jjf

    Wow that’s quite a stretch. That’s why the Pope is living in a hovel in that poor rundown Vatican neighborhood. The untaxed real estate and money pouring in 18% at a time from the huge number of Catholic orders into the central organization means a lot of money. They’re not even cash-poor.

    The paradoxes abound. The huge number of good people of service who choose the Catholic Church as their representative body vs the large number of scoundrels who populate the Church hierarchy.

    The uncounted number of hours of “free” labor by the nuns upon whose backs the Church has expanded. Now a nun is thrown out because a particular order can’t afford to take care of her after she has been willing to sacrifice her entire life for the Church. And that because of a technicality designed to protect the wealth of the Church. Millions for paying for pedophilia. Nothing for sick nuns?

  • Sorry Dale, Catholic or not I live in the reality based community.

    A nun was not thrown out, a novice – a nun want to be, was thrown out. A decision that was subjected to judicial review.

    As far as the Vatican having accumulated wealth, why not – even a small tithe for 18 centuries adds up. But compare that to the redistribution of wealth that has occured under the Bush administration in just 5 years. The fiscal health of individual orders and even Archdiocese (two in bankruptcy here in the US) is a matter of objective fact, not wild speculation.

    Free labor has not “expanded”. Many parish’s are now without a Priest in residence. Convent buildings around the country sit empty. Partially, this is because few people are answering a vocational call. But part is fiscal viability. BVM, the largest order of nuns in the US, is struggling terribly to meet the cost of its retirees.

    Again, there is plenty of legitimate complaints one can levy against the Catholic church, but I would hope that they would grow beyond the ill informed descriminatory BS that my father faced in the 50’s, that Kennedy faced in the 60’s, or that some brain dead scrot’ch licker who undoubtedly votes a straight GOP ticket put on my windshield just a few months ago.

    Also, you are ignoring my salient point. Having now played judge and jury, en masse, with the leaders of my faith, you still have a legitimate, reality based problem. If us missguided “fag church” types (as one elloquent Baptist leader puts it) stop subsidizing quality private education, quality medical care, and food and basic services for the nation’s most needy, who is going to step up?

    -jjf

    P.S. This ’embrace what we supposedly despise’ is a pet peeve of mine. Lament the Bush war on science, then abandon piles of evidence and embrace a pure BS article claiming a direct link between vaccinations and pervasive developmental disorders – all because a well read lefty hack pushes it…

    Similiarly, profess a disdain for the erossion of the seperation of Church and State, then pass direct judgement on a dismissal *from a holy order* – bolstering opinions with annecdotal BS about a rich church and a corrupt leadership.

    When push comes to shove, the only principles a person truly believes in are the ones he/she will embrace when they cost them something. If we are going to thump our chests and shout about principles only when they make BushCo look bad, we are really as valueless and morally bankrupt as the psycho right and the power grabbing, theiving rePugs.

  • What is morally wrong? Pointing out that the Catholic church’s current financial problems are a symptom of a larger societal problem? If so, you lost me.

    Passing blanket judgements on individuals (like the Mother Superior), or groups of people (like the clergy of my church), based on scant information.is morally wrong under the teaching of my faith, but that is a tougher standard than anyone here seems willing to follow.

    That leaves the specific situation at hand. The implication from the article, and which CB picked up on, is that being a nun is a ‘job’ and that a woman with an illness was ‘fired’ solely on the basis of her health. However, having looked at the court filings with Nexus/Lexus, I don’t see it as quite so simple. As I mentioned above, the woman was never going to be a nun – not because she has cancer, but because she was middle aged, emotionally disturbed, and a hopeless theology student.

    Picture it this way, you have a religious order living humbly, on a relatively modest budget, committing to doing God’s work. Along comes a lost, middle aged woman with some serious problems asking to join. From the preliminary testing and interviewing you know she is very poorly suited for a life in the service of others (among other things, she tested extremely low in empathy and extremely high in her sense of personal entitlement). In heartfelt internal communications it is decided, reluctantly, to allow her to become a novice – largely because she seems so desperately to be in need of help. In short order (pun intended) it becomes clear that she is a terrible student and that her problems are very deep indeed. As one sad memo put it, she was “clearly not answering a call from God” but “desperately seeking sanctuary” from voices in her head.

    Now, on top of everything else, she becomes ill. She can no longer even go through the motions of being a student and is a near continuous emotional drain and disruption to the order. Her illness also represents a tremendous financial drain on the group. After agonizing soul searching, the woman in charge concludes that the woman’s problems and needs are beyond what the order can provide and support. But even after the woman is dismissed as a novice, at least three nuns, including the M.S., continued trying to assist her. They wrote letters, filled out applications for medical assistance, etc. The woman, obviously, sued.

    Regardless of rather being a nun is a business (paid to pray?) or a true vocation, I just don’t see it as clear cut. In a small business, do you put everyone’s job in jeopardy for the person you hired out of pity instead of good sense? In a vocation, which equates to family, where do you draw the line between opening your home and destroying your families financial well being?

    I really should not pass any moral judgements at all, but I’ll bet the the nun who reached the decision to release her agonized a lot more over the decision than everyone who read the times article and instantly condemned her – regardless of knowing virtually nothing about the case. And I think it says a lot that while few people are willing to invest energy in researching the facts, several members of the order kept trying to assist the woman even after she filed her law suit against the order.

    -jjf

  • Sad you say? I know but the sad part is this: that some of ‘yous’ -the low intelligence crowd- will feel sorry for the moron who wanted to be a nun …in the 21st century for fucksakes!!!!! One less crook to abuse the religious idiots cannot be other than a positive …

  • Think about it a moment. Does anyone really believe that a nun leading a religious order would make a callous decision of extended profit or convenience? Right or wrong, she almost certainly concluded that they did not have the resources to care for a woman in need. And that means big trouble when you have a middle class that is fighting to stop losing ground, a poverty class that is *growing* during economic expansion, and a tiny ‘have’ class that seems to have no moral standards whatsover.

    -jjf

    Comment by Fitz — 10/9/2006 @ 2:41 pm

    Does anyone believe that this doesn’t happen? That it has never happened? You could look in recent history at Ratzi the Nazi and his enabling catholic child molesters to remain priests for 40 years, without even bringing up the historical data regarding religions abusing their faith. This sounds exactly like a callous decision of extended profit or convenience to me. If she was not suited to be a nun before the medical tests, why was she still there, and being led on in the mistaken belief that she could be a nun? If the other factors you bring up were the main cause of her being dismissed from the novitiate, why did they even bother with a checkup at all?

    And, if that’s who in charge and setting the tone for catholic ministries everywhere, how can you possibly believe that his mores haven’t trickled down?

    I haven’t even mentioned the possibility that this might be part of the unofficial policy of the church (which you might not even be aware of – especially if you’re one of those do-gooder fag church types).

    As an ex-catholic who just heard his religiously insane anti-choice father say that the Foley scandal was no big deal (they’re all the same), after he went on an extended Clenis hate trip for almost a decade (because – gasp! – he had sex outside of marriage), I feel I can safely say that hypocrisy and placing money ahead of faith within the catholic hierarchy is not that far fetched an idea.

    To me, it sounds like you are trying to rationalize this decision so that you won’t have to question your religious organization or its’ ethics wrt this decision.

  • Oh, yeah – by the way: if a young woman concluded that she did not have the resources to care for a child, and she got pregnant, would the catholic church say that it is okay for her to get an abortion? Or would they say that she had a moral obligation, regardless of the cost or impact on her health and her family, to bear that child?

  • Sorry Tom, if the woman decided to keep the baby until term, there is almost a 50/50 chance that her pre-natal care would be subsidized by Catholics. If she decided to put the baby up for adoption, there is almost a 1 in 3 chance that the adoption would be facilitated by a Catholic group. And, if she decided to have an abortion, her right to Holy Communion would still be just a confession away.

    The church is at least consistant in it’s pro life stance. The concept extends to war (past and present pope both spoke out strongly against invading Iraq), and the death penalty. Principle still (mostly) comes before politics – note that the College of Bishops has taken a stance against the situation in Saipan for years. You can disagree with the church, don’t don’t confuse it with the Dobson crowd.

    We are also talking about a specific instance and the documents show that, in fact, the woman doing the dismissing had concerns about the novice for a long time and had primarily been making decisions out of compassion.

    As for the gross characterization of a morally bankrupt ‘fag’ church – Westboro would be proud. Who knows, maybe protesting dead soldier’s funerals is your call to faith…

    Seriously, I’m trying to figure out just what some of the folks here believe in. American justice? Well, no, the courts looked at this case. Seperation of Church and State? No, you want the government to control participation in a holy order. Innocence until proven guity? No, everyone seems to see moral absolutes, despite all the MS did for the woman before, during, and after her suit.

    Consider this, if you foister California law on California parishes, the Archdiocese current zero tolerance policy towards sexual misconduct would be illegal. Just something to think about.

    -jjf

  • Sorry, Fitz…

    Sorry Tom, if the woman decided to keep the baby until term, there is almost a 50/50 chance that her pre-natal care would be subsidized by Catholics. If she decided to put the baby up for adoption, there is almost a 1 in 3 chance that the adoption would be facilitated by a Catholic group. And, if she decided to have an abortion, her right to Holy Communion would still be just a confession away.

    How exactly does that answer the question I brought up? If the woman in my hypothetical question situation makes a decision to abort, would the catholic church say it’s okay? All of the catholic conditioning I received tells me that, no, they wouldn’t – that she has a moral obligation to carry the child to term. I see you dancing around the question, but you have yet to admit that the church has different ethics and mores in my hypothetical, and the actuality of the situation being discussed. Why is it okay to make a decision based on resource availability in one situation and not the other? It wouldn’t have anything to do with the knowledge that the pregnant woman would have to utilize her own resources for the most part, and the nun would be utilizing the catholic church’s, would it? Why was this novitiate let go right after they found out that she had cancer, and they might need to allocate more resources, instead of when the mother superior decided she wasn’t nun material?

    As for the gross characterization of a morally bankrupt ‘fag’ church – Westboro would be proud. Who knows, maybe protesting dead soldier’s funerals is your call to faith…

    How dare you? The bolded words, and the decription of some clergy promoting ‘fag churches’, are your words, not mine. It was more of a slam against those who would use that sort of terminology in the first place. My comment was about my belief that those who are tolerant of homosexuals within the church might not be privy to all of the unwritten rules being used by the more traditional members of the clergy.

    My position on the Westboro Baptist Homo Haters Club has been made very clear, around here and everywhere else I comment. It is both grossly innaccurate, and grossly unfair, for you to make such a charge. And you’re a member of the catholic clergy? I hope, for the sake of those who are ministered by you, that you don’t channel the invisible sky fairy’s mercy through that filter, too…

    Funny how you gloss over Ratzenberger’s activities as the Head of the Inquisition, and his morally bankrupt actions in hiding known child molesters. I didn’t even mention that Ratzi Baby knowingly witheld knowledge of criminal behavior by these priests from the authorities; that he required priests to withold that knowledge, too – in violation of criminal law as well; and that now the official policy of the catholic church is to cover up any future incidents. You do realize that your CA policies are in direct contradiction to official church doctrine?

    Seriously, I’m trying to figure out just what some of the folks here believe in. American justice? Well, no, the courts looked at this case.

    Um – no. The courts were told that they have no jurisdiction here, so they couldn’t look at it. Thanks for trying to confuse the situation…

    Seperation of Church and State? No, you want the government to control participation in a holy order.

    Um – no. I would personally just like to see them pay their own fair share of taxes on the money they make. And be held accountable (and subject to criminal penalties like the rest of humanity) when they break the law.

    Innocence until proven guity? No, everyone seems to see moral absolutes, despite all the MS did for the woman before, during, and after her suit.

    Um – no. The only moral absolutes I see here are your stance about abortion. The facts as I see them are that this novitiate was led to believe that she would be able to become a nun until the church was going to have to pay too much to take care of her. Then they dropped her like a hot potato. In almost the same way, I might add, that I have personally seen churches (catholic and otherwise) show ‘support’ for pregnant women until it’s too late for them to have abortions.

    I freely admit that I am somewhat biased on these subjects. It’s because of the personal experiences I have had with christians. Sorry if it comes out as sweeping generalities about religious types in general – but, when my bias proves true for the vast majority of religious types I personally encounter, don’t you think I might have a point? Or at least some reasons for my beliefs?

  • Tom,

    What planet do you live on? We haven’t touched on my beliefs about abortion – where did you become an authority on my unstated beliefs? If it is voices in your head they are leading you astray. I have given no moral judgements at all, I’ve just asked that folks stick to the facts that we can confirm.

    ’50/50′ goes to your point because you seemed to be arguing that Catholicism has not place for your hypothetical woman. I pointed out that isn’t true. Numerous Catholic ministries specifically exist to help woman pursue pro life options and even if they do not, our faith believes that God’s love and ability to forgive is infinite. She is still welcome in the Church and entitled to sacraments.

    As far as ‘no information’ – did you bother to actually read about the case, or are you relying solely on your anti-Catholic rage? The woman’s ability to move past novice was in question from the beginning of her association with the order.

    As for how I dare? Face reality, you’re mimicing the same arguments, with some of the same unsubstantiated ‘facts’. If you think alike in one area, why not another? Saying you are different and acting different are two different things. Since you insist on equating all Catholics with what appears to be the actions of under 35 people spread over decades, I figured that the Golden rule would apply and I could point out the last group that shouted some of your arguments and gross miss characterizations of my faith.

    What would you have me respond to with regards to the Cardinal/now Pope? You are speaking largely nonesense. The CA policy is in keeping both with a court settlement and a policy from the American College. The structure of the Roman Catholic Church gives those actions legitimacy. The late John Paul II wrote strongly about the matter and the new Pope personally closed a loophole in how overseas transfers occur. If you are privy to some secret inner church, where all those weird mind controlling gamma rays that make you angry and incontinent emminate, please enlighten us. I have to go with the actions and documents that I can see and read.

    My points in all this have remained relatively unchanged;

    1. The idea that the dismissal was solely because of health reasons is not well supported by the evidence presented in the case

    2. That the Catholic church is having difficulty being a social safety net to its own is a bad omen for the nation as a whole

    I’ve also added:

    3. Rather you agree or not, the Catholic church, by and large, is consistant in its pro life stance, it is not conception-to-birth exclussive

    4. Stereotypes and charactures are monkey think for idiots

    Look at your last post, you have stooped to attacking moral stances I have never taken. Just because I am a Catholic does not automatically mean that I am a good one. For all you know I wish your own mother had been subjected to sharp kicks and a coat hanger (uh, I don’t – but #4 is clearly a moral judgement, which I accept is a Catholic sin on my part).

    What is intriging to me about faith, and probably indicitive of the research suggesting a ‘God gene’, is how quickly the subject makes people angry and irrational.

    -jjf

  • Nice.

    Now I have voices in my head? Thanks for reading my mind on this. Almost in the same way you accuse me of putting words in your mouth.

    Funny how it’s okay for you, but not for me. Can you say hypocrite? I knew you could – since you give the assembled multitudes a prime example of it with your words.

    Yes, I read about the case. Thanks for accusing me of ignorance, too. Nice set of catholic mores you gots there…

    Also nice to see you know that I only have under 35 people in my sample. This must have sprung from your previous telepathic examination of my mind, so that you can toss these numbers into the discussion. Or did your invisible sky fairy whisper this sweet nothing into your ear as well?

    As for the Ratzenberger stuff, maybe you could go do some reading of your own. There is a pdf of a document put out in 1962 that instructs priests to not report abuse by the priesthood to the authorities.

    My points have also remained unchanged:

    1. The idea that the dismissal was not primarily because of anticipated large financial outlay by the church is not supported by the evidence I have seen about this case.

    2. That any churches, catholic or otherwise, should be subject to the same laws as everyone else.

    You have engaged in nothing but monkey feces throwing in your last comment. It’s too bad, because I have seen a lot of thoughtful commentary coming from you in other posts. It’s also too bad that you engage in those same sweeping generalizations when you discuss the anti-choice positions of the catholics.

    What is intriguing to me about faith is the resulting moral and intellectual blindness it engenders in its’ adherents when they try and defend their particular form of religious insanity.

  • “What is intriguing to me about faith is the resulting moral and intellectual blindness it engenders in its’ adherents when they try and defend their particular form of religious insanity.”

    Which, of course, is the unbiased and intellectually sound comment made by someone who has written off any religious person as “insane.”

    While I think everyone above has made good points that underscore just how complex are the issues of church-state relations, I must take exception to the hostility toward religion that runs just below the surface of many comments. This is pretty unskillful, to say the least, and is unhelpful in terms of making allies of progressive people of faith (and yes, we do exist). Continuing to equate religion per se with ignorance, superstition, and mindless conservatism plays right into the hands of those religious people who are ignorant, superstitious, and mindlessly conservative, because it reinforces the myth that there are no alternatives to either progressive atheism or backward religiosity.

  • If the shoe fits…

    FWIW, IMHO there are those who are spiritual in nature and do not let their faith get in the way of their rationality.

    It’s too bad we don’t hear more from them. PopeRatzi, Falwell, Robertson, Dobson, Phelps, etc. etc. etc. are in my face all day every day in almost every form of media I can get access to. For some strange reason, enlightened voices encouraging spirituality without the religious insanity can’t be heard above all the superstitious nonsense that gets shoved down my throat every day all day.

    Maybe if I saw progressive people of faith attacking those who abuse religious beliefs in the media, instead of those who have to wade through all their drivel on a constant basis, I might have a different opinion about the subject.

    Whatever anyone wants to believe is perfectly fine with me. However, when it is used as ‘fact’ in a rational argument, or it blinds those in the discussion to opposite points of view which might have some validity (as opposed to those ideas being dismissed out of hand because they don’t agree with a particular flavor of invisible cloud being dogma), I don’t feel as though I should stand silently by while pagan occult beliefs are used to trump reason and logic.

    I equate religion with unfounded belief that has no provable basis in reality. No problems with that sort of thing on my end – whatever floats your boat.

    Funny how the unbridled hostility towards me for daring to challenge your sacred beliefs engenders such a vituperative response – yet the Pope et al remain unchallenged for their blasphemy, and their willful and deliberate breaking of the law – or their abuse of the legal system so they can behave as though they’re above the law.

    And another commenter’s characterization of me as a doddering fool who has a bunch of voices in his head is okay – because he’s a person of faith. Funny how you have no problem with that sort of thing either, Jason…

    Gee, I wonder why that would cause some sort of hostility to come out in response?

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