Sunday Discussion Group

Pardon, or no pardon, that is the question.

In this political climate, the Republican base is already angry with the president over immigration policy (among other things), and far-right voices are making clear that they not only want Bush to pardon Scooter Libby, they expect it.

Already, major conservative and neoconservative organizations, magazines and Web sites are expressing vexation that Mr. Bush has not granted clemency to Mr. Libby, who they say was unfairly railroaded for an initial leak that has now been traced to Richard L. Armitage, the former deputy secretary of state.

“I don’t understand it,” said David Frum, a former speech writer for Mr. Bush who is now a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative research group with close ties to the White House. “A lot of people in the conservative world are weighted down by the sheer, glaring unfairness here.”

A conservative with close ties to the administration, who requested anonymity to speak frankly, put it another way: “Letting Scooter go to jail would be a politically irrational symbol to the last chunk of the 29 percent upon which he stands,” a reference to the low percentage of Americans who tell pollsters they support Mr. Bush.

William Kristol is questioning the president’s character over this. William F. Buckley insisted Libby’s perjury and obstruction of justice are a mere “triviality,” and argued that Bush should “exhibit the courage for which he is loved and hated, by doing the right thing, and letting Mr. Libby get on with life.”

Moreover, Kevin Drum had a good post the other day suggesting that a pardon, from the president’s perspective, should be an easy choice. It would placate the base, make Cheney happy, and stick it to White House critics. Even if it made Bush look worse, he’s a lame-duck president without much of a future anyway.

There is, of course, a flip side.

There are a variety of arguments against a pardon (besides the obvious one — Libby committed a number of serious crimes and deserves a just punishment). The NYT raised one.

A former senior administration official with his own ties to the case said Mr. Libby had failed to meet the general standard for a pardon by not showing contrition or serving any time. This official also noted that Mr. Libby had also been found guilty of lying to investigators, the same offense that led to the impeachment of Mr. Clinton.

The former official, who requested anonymity to speak frankly about the president, said: “It would show a deep disregard for the rule of law if he was to do it right now, when there has been no remorse shown by a convicted felon and no time has been served. How’s this going to fit in his long-term legacy?”

This probably isn’t the most persuasive of explanations — Bush’s disregard for the rule of law is already legendary.

But there are other reasons. First, Bush has said repeatedly that he’d just love to talk about what transpired in this scandal, but darn it all, he just can’t. It’s an “ongoing legal matter.” If he pardons Libby, it officially wraps up the controversy. His one and only dodge would no longer work.

Second, a pardon would bring the scandal into the Oval Office (even more so). It would necessarily give the impression that Libby lied and obstructed justice in order to shield Bush and Cheney from their role in an even bigger crime. Even now, it’s frustratingly unclear why, exactly, Libby decided to lie so brazenly, which suggests that he’s covering up a more serious matter that might involve his only two WH bosses (the president and vice president). A pardon would exacerbate these suspicions.

So, what’s it going to be? Will Bush pardon Libby? If he does, what’s the political fallout? If he doesn’t, will the far-right GOP base ever forgive him?

Discuss.

I think they’re counting on a reversal on appeal. Given the make up of the DC circuit, it’s a pretty good bet. Judge Walton might force the issue if he orders Libby to jail pending appeal. BTW, digby wrote an interesting piece about this yesterday.

  • Waiting for a Republican to show remorse for anything, other than getting caught, is like waiting for Hell to freeze over … or waiting for a Democrat to show some nerve.

  • His one and only dodge would no longer work.

    This may be what you and I think, but Bush is not bound by logic, or even by what he’s said in the past. About the Ashcroft hospital incident, for example, Bush simply said, “I’m not going to talk about it.” When you’re the chest-thumping President, you don’t have to answer to anyone.

  • They’re making the same loud noises that the privileged do when one of them gets caught in the rusty wheels of justice. I think that many are telling themselves, “Libby’s one of us, he doesn’t deserve to go to jail” while sweating under the collar. In their little minds they feel that if Libby goes to jail then any of them go to jail and in the case of many (like Perle and Feith) deservedly should go (but probably won’t) for crimes against humanity.

  • If (or should I say when) Bush pardons Libby, it will be a stinking fish that will forever hang around George’s neck as the moment when the President took the lead in his own cover up.

  • If he is going to pardon Libby, maybe he should also pardon Paris Hilton. Right now, very little non Paris Hilton makes it on the news.

    If he were to pardon Paris Hilton, it would be 25/8 all Paris all the time on the news. No one would even notice he pardoned Libby.

    If he wants to invade Iran, he should also pardon Paris Hilton. He could then invade Iran and no one in the public would notice because they would all be focused on Paris Hilton.

  • These raving mouth-foamers who are advocating for his pardon should be thrown in the slammer along with Mr. Liddy, I mean Mr. Libby.

    They are basically spitting in the face of juries everywhere.

  • What Former Dan said and:

    Will Bush pardon Libby?

    Not any time soon. He’s still on LegacyQuest (TM).

    If he does, what’s the political fallout?

    Right now, enough to make Chernobyl look like a broken watch with a radium dial. The problem is, you can’t talk about Libby without talking about Plame and no one wants to talk about Plame right now. Remember the hearing the Democrats held in some broom closet because the honest and freedom loving ReFucklicans wouldn’t let them have one of the bigger rooms? Getting a big room with plenty of space for lights and cameras wouldn’t be a problem now, would it? Hell, some reporters might actually show up. Someone might say something that can’t be spun.

    Later? Again, I think BushBrat will pardon him as a final fuck you before fucking off back to the ranch. But I’m wondering: Can a person claim Executive Privilege once he’s out of office?

    If he doesn’t, will the far-right GOP base ever forgive him?

    CB, they’ve already started “proving” that Bush is really an unwashed hippy liberal. He tricked them, how can they forgive such treachery? [/pearl clutching]

    Actually I don’t think Das Base really gives a damn. They’re too busy worrying brown people will be allowed to enter the country their forefathers … stole from other brown people. Oops. Never mind. But the pundicks won’t forgive him because he made them look like complete idiots. I’m willing to bet that before he leaves office the major blowhards will have repudiated him completely. (Watch for comparisons to Clinton). Not that BushBrat will give a damn. Of course, if the next President is a Democrat there will be an instant surge in pining for the dear old days of life under the Shrub.

  • Bush must be aware that public reaction to special treatment for the privileged is unpredictable. He knows he’s playin’ with fire. The media that gets so bored with habeas corpus will chomp on to Libby’s pardon like a dog toy covered in Nancy Grace slobber.

  • Bush will grant the pardon on his way out the door. The vast majority of the country (if not the planet) will be so happy to see the deciderer step down that a pardon for Scooter will be a trivial annoyance. In the meantime, the 28%ers can abandon Bush (as if they’re doing him any good anyway) to further the meme that Bush never was a true conservative as they jump on the Thompson, Brownback or one of the other nutjob’s bandwagon for ’08.

    We often, and fairly ridicule the right for living in an alternate reality, without ever recognizing it’s ultimate advantage. When reality fails to meet the needs of the day, it’s a breeze to simply invent a whole new one. 10 years ago, Rule of Law was the Most.Important.Thing.Ever. Today it’s the Most.Offensive.Thing.Ever.

    So welcome to the shiny new wingnut reality. Rule of Law is stupid and George Bush is lousy President because he’s such a liberal loser.

  • The biggest anti-pardon argument of all (from their perspective) is that a pardoned Scooter would have no protection whatsoever in not truthfully and fully answering questioning in either house of Congress. That prospect should be giving ’em a huge case of the cold robbies.

  • Bush likes to blame others for his problems. At this point he must be blaming Cheney for the mess in Iraq and everything else that’s gone haywire. I would not be surprised if not pardoning Scooter was his way of being spiteful to Cheney for bad advice.

  • This morning on Fox News Sunday, Juan Williams pointed out that a pardon of Libby now would hurt the Republican chances in the ’08 presidential election with the all-important “swing voters.” Not that Bush gives a rat’s ass about his party in 2008.

    Also: FNS’s panel was mystified why Bush threw in the towel so readily on the renomination of Gen. Pace. Is that quacking sound that we hear a lame duck swimming in a circle?

  • I am suspectging that Libby may not want a pardon. If he is a true accolyte of Bush and Cheney – the prospect of a zillion dollar book deal (which he will have time to work on in prison) weighs heavily on him.

    And since this is a guy who probably knows where all the bodies are buried, he will be forced into acceptong a pardon and bound by a promise to never ever ever write about what he knows.

  • Rightwingnuts called for Sandy Berger’s head when he pleaded guilty to removing and destroying classified documents on terrorism from the Clinton administration. This double standard drives me crazy! The law is the law. If you break it, then you better have the guts to do the time. Libby should take the lesson from Martha Stewart.

  • Everyone seems to be forgetting the sadism that forms the core of Bush’s personality. Bush will get a kick out of waiting until Jan 19, ’07 to decide, perhaps going on TV and flipping a coin. The fact that Libby is a personal acquaintance just adds to it all.

  • We have come such a long way from the rule of law and constitutional government, to the extent we ever had it in the first place, the idea seems positively quaint these days. When cowboys run things they make it up as they go along; hang tough, say little, are accountable to no one, and treat it all as a virtue. That pretty much describes Bush, if not Cheney, who has the most to lose if Scooter writes a book (which he will).

    Whether Libby is pardoned or not (he will be) doesn’t matter all that much anymore. Obviously he knows much more that could be seriously damaging and cause the indictment of a whole host of characters who richly deserve it. Because of that remote possibility he will be taken care of, one way or another, and the lid will be kept on through Jan. 20, 2009, as best as possible.

    Bush doesn’t care about sweating neocons. He’s still carrying out God’s instructions , after all. So if God says “pardon Libby, pin a meal of freedom on him” Bush will, and then refuse to discuss it. Now which Dem is going to call him on it?

  • I think Bush will pardon him, but I don’t think he should. I also find it interesting that Republicans say they oppose the current immigration plan because it grants amnesty and then they turn around and ask Bush to grant amnesty to Libby.

  • If Bush pardons Libby, it won’t be until he is leaving office — depending on how he leaves office.

  • I’ve quit predicting what Bush will or won’tt do because he operates according to his own rules — rules which have no foundation in conventional rhyme or reason and which he will toss aside when it suits. This is a guy who gives medals of freedom to outright failures, who sees the law as a means to accomplish his radical agenda, and believes the presidency is beyond any and all accountability.

    As for his rabid base and those afraid to confront it, these are the people whose heros are G. Gordon Libby, Oliver North, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Richard Nixon, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Grover Norquist, etc.

    Combine a president with no respect for convention or reason, advisors hellbent on one-party rule over an American empire, and a base made up of lunatics — stir to a full-boil outrage — and you have the recipe for the unthinkable.

    In granting a pardon, Bush would be rewarding an administration official for successfully obstructing an investigation into wrongdoing by the administration itself. If there is a more cynical act that shows the republican desire to destroy representative democracy, it escapes me.

  • If Bush pardons Libby, it won’t be until he is leaving office — depending on how he leaves office.

    … or when he leaves office. I keep having a nightmare of Bush pulling out a signing statement that declares he has decided to stay a while longer.

  • CB, I think you’re right especially because Fitzgerald keeps champing at the bit to pursue this further. But I think even more than that, it might be the contempt for the rule of law thing that really keeps him from doing it. It is pretty bad if he pardons Libby for doing what Clinton was impeached for.

  • It’s never been difficult to understand this issue once you realize and “know” that all republicans are criminals that haven’t been caught yet. The law only matters to them when it serves their purpose. They are the party of hypocrisy, screaming for the rule of law against Democrats but ignoring the same when it applies to Republicans.
    How do they pray so publicly in church for justice and honesty and morality and then ignore it all when they return to office and call themselves the moral majority.
    They ignore why Libby is going to jail and them make an unrelated statement that he didn’t out Plame. This is not why he’s going to jail but for lying and obstruction.

    What is astounding is that they are proud of and parade their hypocrisy like some patriotic banner demanding that their crimes be pardoned. They even demand urgency that they may get it over with and get busy continuing their present corruption.

    Definitely the party of hypocrisy, refusing oversight and demanding pardons for their crimes. The law applies only to others.

  • Caught in the horns of a dalailama.

    LibbyLippyLiddyLiqqyLibdyLiqpyLidbyLipqy
    LippyLiddyLiqqyLibdyLiqpyLidbyLipqyLibby
    LiddyLiqqyLibdyLiqpyLidbyLipqyLibbyLippy
    LiqqyLibdyLiqpyLidbyLipqyLibbyLippyLiddy
    LibdyLiqpyLidbyLipqyLibbyLippyLiddyLiqqy
    LiqpyLidbyLipqyLibbyLippyLiddyLiqqyLibdy
    LidbyLipqyLibbyLippyLiddyLiqqyLibdyLiqpy
    LipqyLibbyLippyLiddyLiqqyLibdyLiqpyLidby

    Alternatively:

    LidbyLipqyLibbyLippyLiddyLiqqyLibdyLiqpy
    LidbyLipqyLibbyLippyLiddyLiqqyLibdyLiqpy
    LiqpyLidbyLipqyLibbyLippyLiddyLiqqyLibdy
    LibdyLiqpyLidbyLipqyLibbyLippyLiddyLiqqy
    LiqqyLibdyLiqpyLidbyLipqyLibbyLippyLiddy
    LiddyLiqqyLibdyLiqpyLidbyLipqyLibbyLippy
    LippyLiddyLiqqyLibdyLiqpyLidbyLipqyLibby
    LibbyLippyLiddyLiqqyLibdyLiqpyLidbyLipqy

    Mind-rotting.

    Solution:

    Paris Hilton for President.

  • The far-right has gotten used to their riding high on the hog—and Scooter behind bars gives them all nightmares; frightful images emerging from the mists of fitful sleep upon which they might find their collective names on a freshly-opened grand jury indictment. Those who drink deply from the wells of graft, theft, corruption, and war profiteering will eventually reach the bottom of an empty well, where lies the long lost sign warning that the water was poison. Though not thirsty, they shall nevertheless fall and fail—from their thirst.

    Thus is the ironic clarity of the phrase “Justice is Blind” best known….

  • > His one and only dodge would no longer work.

    Silly Carpetbagger. Haven’t you been paying attention? This situation has come up before. During the legal process, it’s “We can’t comment on an ongoing legal matter.” At the second the legal process is completed, the story switches to, “It’s all over, we need to look to the future, not dwell on the past.”

  • Like beep I have no real thoughts as to whether he will or won’t pardon Libby. Of course I don’t think he should but this is Bush we are talking about.

    Loyalty runs one way for Bush and generally it is in his direction. Of course his keeping of Gonzales shows that sometimes obstinance trums everything else.

    And lets not forget Libby was/is Cheney’s boy not Bush. Truthfully what loyalty does Bush owe Libby. I think Bush feels Libby is just cannon fodder for whatever Bush wants, and he should be grateful to be the cannon fodder.

    Bush has only been swayed to do the opposite of what he wanted to do at the behest/insistance of his own party (NCLB, prescription drug, etc.). Of course that was when he wasn’t a lame duck president with abysmal approval number and when many Republicans in Congress hadn’t turned on him or been unelected. Things are different now. He and Rove have to know he isn’t going to get shit even if he does pardon Libby.

    Lastly, Bush is a petty, unserious frat boy. He can and will get his own back at people who do harm to him and what he wants. Saying all that he is just as likely to pardon Libby just because.

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