Sunday Discussion Group

The president’s reckless and corrupt commutation of Scooter Libby’s prison sentence seemed to be a tipping point this week. (Or more accurately, the latest in a series of tipping points.) Bush has done plenty of other offensive things, but this one seemed more blatant than most of the others. It left much of the political world wondering, What do we do now?

Obviously, impeachment is an option. Digby had a terrific post on the subject a few days ago, which expressed some skepticism about pursuing this option, particularly in light of the fact that a Senate conviction is a practical impossibility, and the entire effort would probably galvanize the GOP anyway.

“So the question I ask is this — is a failed impeachment going to hold them accountable?” Digby asked. “If so, then I’m for it. But if it actually ends up getting them off the hook, then not so much. It’s not such an easy call. And then there’s the bigger question. What’s the alternative?”

Rep. Robert Wexler (D-Fla.), a solid and reliable progressive, will be offering an alternative next week, in the form of a congressional censure resolution.

I strongly believe that presidential intervention in this case is an unconscionable abuse of authority by George W. Bush. This is a case of a man lying to protect the President from the consequences of an Administration that chose petty political retribution over national security. And these lies are not about some trivial personal issue. These are lies that sent America to war on false pretenses. […]

Commuting Libby’s sentence is nothing short of political quid pro quo, and Congress must go on record in strong opposition. It is fitting that Congress step forward to express the disgust that Americans rightfully feel toward this contemptible decision. Censuring the president makes the unequivocal statement that this abrogation of justice will not be tolerated. […]

The question should not be whether his corrupt and deceitful actions merit removing him from office. That is its own debate, and one that is not likely to reach a consensus anytime soon. On the other hand, censuring the President for rewarding perjury is a clear cut determination that President Bush has lost sight of the rule of law. Congress has a responsibility to send the unequivocal message that the American people are fed up with an Administration that lacks accountability and holds itself above the law…. [F]or Congress to give silent approval would be unforgivable.

Alright, but is this enough?

Swopa makes a compelling case that censure would be a powerful political statement that would “cut through the clutter.”

It would make a simple declaration — that even if Bush has the technical right to commute Scooter’s sentence, in the view of the Congress, he has sent the most corrupting message a president can possibly send to his administration (“If you break the law while working for me, I’ll make sure you never spend a day in jail”), and it was morally wrong for him to do it.

It’s a message that needs to be sent for future generations, so that Dubya’s pseudo-pardon isn’t treated as an accepted precedent. On a practical basis, it begins to lay out a public case for a possible impeachment. And on a purely political level, it would firmly establish Bush and his apologists (including the craven supplicants campaigning for the 2008 Republican nomination) on the wrong side of a clear moral divide — an absolutely essential step in debunking the essential GOP mythology of firm, paternal rectitude.

The Republicans will respond as they always do, with counter-accusations and smoke machines. But if the Democrats speak plainly and insistently, they can repeatedly drag the subject back to its core: That when an official in his administration breaks the law, the President has no business interfering in that official’s punishment. And he should be censured for it.

On the flip side, plenty of observers believe historical rebukes are just symbolic. Still others believe if Congress is going to go after anyone, it should be Cheney first.

And while we’re at it, there are other alternatives. Jeremy Mayer argues that Congress should consider a constitutional amendment “eliminating the power of the president to pardon himself, the vice president and any political appointee for official acts committed during his term in office.”

For that matter, I’ve seen others argue that all of this is folly, and that Congress’ central focus right now should be on ending the war in Iraq, which should take precedence over punishing a lame-duck president who’ll leave office next year anyway.

So, what’s it going to be?

Quagmire begets quagmire.

  • For that matter, I’ve seen others argue that all of this is folly, and that Congress’ central focus right now should be on ending the war in Iraq, which should take precedent over punishing a lame-duck president who’ll leave office next year anyway.

    Why not both? If repubs want to rally to defend their albatross, let them. In the meantime, pull the plug on Bush’s war. Surely they can walk and chew gum at the same time. For crying out loud, the guy’s less popular than Paris Hilton on crack.

  • I think it’s possible that Cheney should be impeached first.

    I think that it’s wrong not to talk about impeachment just because people will say it will fail because of the votes. For example, if Republican voters don’t like what Bush is doing, and think an impeachment hearing is merited, they should be calling up their Republican congresscritters and rightfully expecting a responsive, attentive ear rather than someone who has no hope of listening because of the allegiance thing. Also, anybody whose area is represented by a Republican, regardless of whether they’re Republican themselves and whether they voted for him or not, has a right to expect this…

    Telling people they should forget about this when the case is so meritorious is like encouraging them not to use their First Amendment rights, only worse… If a political party does not look likely to win some year, do we tell them not to run a candidate? No, and they run a candidate anyway, usually, no matter how small the election is. That’s the tradition.

    and that Congress’ central focus right now should be on ending the war in Iraq, which should take precedent over punishing a lame-duck president who’ll leave office next year anyway.

    I’ve heard the comments that we should not be talking or thinking about impeachment, and it strikes me as obvious trolling, and it should strike you that way too. Saying that pursuing impeachment is “cowardice” or “revenge” is absurd. We all know that no one is doing it for revenge.

    And we all know what the Republicans would be doing if in our situation: they’d probably be trying to bring impeachment as close to the Democratic President’s door as possible. Because they know that in the abstract, it would hurt the particular person and hurt the party. It just turned out not to be the case in the particular case of lying about an extramarital blowjob to a congressional investigatory committee.

    I don’t think it should be considered too certain that the Republicans would not vote impeachment, either. I think their votes depend principally on whether they will be subject to accountability by forces that would protect Bush no matter what. If so many of them have lost faith in him in their hearts, and if so many have that there aren’t enough people left to enforce accountability, and if the ones who would vote have the impression of this- then they might vote for impeachment if they have started to see Bush as a liability to their party and the country.

    I think a censure resolution is going to suffer from the same problems as other censure resolutions. I think efforts to end the war in Iraq are going to be met with resistance similar to other, previous methods to end the war in Iraq. Futility is going to be met with derision in the public media, a la last night’s AP headline about Bush ripping Democrats for their “failures.” Symbolic resolutions are going to be rightly pointed out as ridiculous for being non-binding- Republicans have a way of making these stunts count for all their worth, by thinking ahead of time of how to maximize their effects. Democrats aren’t going to prepare properly to make sure they succeed with a censure, rather they’re going to just try to skip to doing the censure and hope it gets some kind of result.

  • For crying out loud, the guy’s less popular than Paris Hilton on crack.

    Someone should tell all the Democratic congresscritters not to get their news and opinion from all the biased MSM sources that CB exposes, because it’s not giving them a clear picture. Instead they should just read the Carpetbagger Report, maybe Political Animal. It’s like dating somebody with really big tits that rubs you just the right way, but doesn’t have your best interest at heart- all the sexy cooing and compelling wisecracks are nice, but they’re just meant to lead you into a bear-trap, and every time you see that bod and it looks nice, or your honey makes you feel like you’re the kind, no matter how good it feels at the time it’s really just a stab in the heart.

  • … Alright, but is this enough? … So, what’s it going to be?

    None of the above.
    All the moral outrage will fizzle away…
    And die wimpering with its tail between its legs.
    It always does.

    And all we are left with are dim memories of moments like this:

    Brownie’s doing a heck of a job.
    And…
    Scooter’s cute smug smile as he walks free…
    And…
    An old guy apologizing for being shot in the face and not telling anybody about it…
    And…
    Watch this drive…
    And…
    Go fuck yourself America.
    And…
    See I’m the decider see…
    And…

    “Cynic. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.”
    ~~ Ambrose Bierce

  • De-fund the war NOW. Enough money to bring all the troops home along with specific provisions to hog-tie the maniacs Cheney and Bush for the rest of their time in office. No more neo-con adventures with American lives and treasure.

    Begin Impeachment hearings NOW. They need not be rushed. They need never lead to trial by the Senate. They should, at least, constitute a very thorough documentation of the many thousands of anti-Constitutional crimes of this administration and those answering to it ( and those GOP congressmen complicit in it).

    Thorough overhaul of election procedures at all levels NOW. There must be a return to paper ballots, something with physical evidence which can be impounded so that no doubt can remain about the integrity of elections.

    An act of Congress NOW re-affirming the 1954 Brown v. Board of Education ruling. Bush’s Supreme Court must be slapped down every time they try to roll back progress fifty years. If it takes late-night meetings of a Democratic cabal to do it, excluding the opposition, so be it. If they can’t play without twisting the rules, then they shouldn’t be alllowed to play.

  • We need to keep two things in mind: first, we can only control what *we* do; we can’t expect that we’re going to get any Republican help (remember when we scaled back from the “Impeach Gonzales!” idea to “Well, let’s have a no-confidence vote in the Senate”? That went well, didn’t it?).

    Second, we need to see this stuff as part of an ongoing process, rather than a series of one-shot deals, so that our rhetoric and actions build on what we’ve said and done before, and we keep moving forward, with the pressure on the Bush-Cheney Administration.

    If, for example, the House votes articles of impeachment against Bush/Cheney/Gonzales/etc., but the Senate *doesn’t* vote to convict and remove from office, then we don’t let it die there, we take the proven corruption and Republican betrayal of the Constitution and make it a campaign issue. (I’d argue that these authoritarian-enabling douchebags should be sued for violating their oaths of office to defend Bush instead of the Constitution, but I’m not sure there’s a mechanism for that, and I think that’s further out on the horizon)

    However, the first thing to do is find out whether we have enough votes to get started, and enough of a presence to convince Pelosi/Reid/etc. that when they’re attacked for being too “partisan” that we’ll have their back. On the other hand, *they* need to show *us* that they’re willing to defend the Constitution and the country, because so far, they’ve been awfully good at keeping their powder dry, and Bush has been awfully good at taking advantage of Democratic indecision.

    So, more specific thoughts:

    1. Impeachment has to go back on the table, officially. There’s a laundry list of stuff that’d justify it – NSA/WW, USA firings, Iraq war lies, subpoena intransigence, signing statements, and I’m probably forgetting something.

    2. Democrats need to actually defend impeachment being on the table. It’s in the Constitution, Republicans have no right to bitch about using it now after the way they went after Clinton, and just because it’s “political”… well, fuck, this *is* *politics*.

    3. Democrats need to *not* be afraid of what the press will say. Republicans weren’t for Clinton, and that was when they had a bullshit case. Now that Democrats have a *real* case, they’re worried?

    4. Oh, they’re worried about what happens if impeachment doesn’t work – Bush/Cheney/etc. will become even more bitterly partisan and intransigent and flout the Constitution?

    5. Go after Bush *and* Cheney, in any order. Cheney first might be easier, because (1) he’s at ten percent in the polls, and impeachment is, at heart, a political popularity contest as well as a legal matter; if someone gets that unpopular in politics, they *SHOULD* be impeached (think of it as a no-confidence vote with *teeth*); (2) he’s done more of the bad shit here; and (3) if we impeach Bush or get him to quit (I can’t see him sitting *still* for an impeachment trial, much less waiting the whole thing out), we’d *get* a President Cheney, who would then need to be impeached.

    6. There are two kinds of paths here: enforcing accountability, and everything else. “Censure” – just like that Gonzales “no-confidence vote” – falls into the second category. Coincidentally, it also falls into another category: “things Republicans can thwart Democrats from doing, thus making us look *even* *MORE* impotent, politically.” If anyone’s deterred by “not having the votes for impeachment,” what, pray tell, makes “not having the votes for censure” any less of a problem? (and that’s not even discussing the impotence of “censure”; it’s like objecting “strenuously” to a judge’s ruling instead of merely objecting)

    7. If impeachment doesn’t remove Bush/Cheney from office, then Democrats need to interpret that as a sign of Republican corruption and take it on the campaign trail – not, as I expect they might be tempted, get all bashful and admit that they did something bad by attacking the president/VP and then, when pressed, apologizing to Republicans/the media. If you can’t defend the Constitution unapologetically, you have no business being in politics, and nobody *else* has any business *trusting* you to defend *them* and *their* interests, and at a bare minimum, it’d be good to learn which of our elected representatives misunderstand that, sooner rather than later.

  • There is an attractive intermediate: call on Bush to resign.

    Widespread anti-Bush demonstrations and political leaders calling for Bush to resign send a message to the future that lots of us found Bush to be unacceptable. Arguably, it would send a better message than a failed impeachment. Calls for resignation would cause the media to talk about Bush’s failures and legitimize critical coverage, which would undermine Bush’s remaining Republican support. Then impeachment might start to look like a really good option.

    I wouldn’t mind if a Bush resignation elevated Cheney to the presidency or one of the Republican contenders to VP. Cheney’s power only works in the dark: out in the open, with no political popularity, he’s Darth Vader without his face mask. Absent electoral fraud and Supreme Court decisions, the Republicans are toast for the next election cycle, so elevating Romney or Thompson to the vice-presidency would only tie the Bush-Cheney anchor that much tighter around their necks.

  • The Republicans are a bunch of recidivists. Nixon was guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors and he walked because of the Ford pardon. After Iran-Contra the co-conspirators walked thanks to pardons form George H. W. Bush. Now we have the Cheney-Bush commutation of the Libby sentence. This is starting to look like a pattern. It must now be brought to an end.

    As I’ve noted earlier in the week, the Founding Fathers envisioned impeachment as the remedy for such an abuse of the constitutionally granted power of the pardon. However, as we see with this debate, it is not clear that impeachment is an effective check since it is very cumbersome to employ, while the act of pardoning can be done in an instant. This points to a flaw in our Constitution which must be corrected. I am in favor of the Constitutional amendment which would limit the Presidents ability to cover-up his own crimes or those of his inner circle.

    This approach lacks the emotional satisfaction of seeing Cheney and Bush punished for their abuse of power, but it is clear that the problem extends beyond this administration. The abuse of presidential pardons is It is part and parcel of the Republican presidential toolbox. It must be removed from the box.

  • Besides calling for resignation:

    1) Continue investigative hearings, and the more the better.
    (Yay, Henry & John!!!)
    (And get Waxman & Conyers on a first-name basis with the general public.)

    2) Put forward censure votes on very specific transgressions every two weeks, forcing Republicans to vote in favor of waterboarding, then smearing with menstrual blood, then mistreatment with dogs, then secret prisons, then rendition to secret prisons, then secret meetings between Cheney & energy company lobbiests, then destruction of public records, then endangering national security by using non-secure e-mail systems, then violations of the Presidential Records Act with respect to e-mails, and so on. It would actually be good if these kept failing, as it would let the public know which party and which politicians to vote against in 2008

    3) Talk about impeachment as completely justified, and something that will be pursued as soon as Republicans stop protecting a failed adminstration.

    The problems with impeachment are 1) Republicans currently won’t vote to convict in the Senate, 2) Before that, Republicans + Lieberman – Johnson – a few timid dems have the votes in the Senate to shut down all manner of procedural votes of the sort that Senate impeachment trials require, and 3) even before that, the current Supreme Court will shut down investigations by issuing rulings in support of executive privilege every time the White House raised the issue, which would be frequently.

  • The larger question here is: how can our democracy function when one of the two main political parties values loyalty to party over loyalty to the Constitution? There’s little question Bush’s actions warrant impeachment, but let’s face it: the Republicans will protect him no matter what he does. This country can only move forward when the Republican right is completely, utterly discredited. They’re well on their way, but an impeachment won’t hurt them. It will unite them. Don’t bother. Never kill a man who’s committing suicide.

  • FWIW, here’s a link to Swopa’s “compelling case” for censure. (Which, it should be noted, is not recommended to the exclusion of any other steps; it’s just one more way to keep attention focused on the issue.)

  • If one thing should be clear by now, it’s that this administration and modern conservatives don’t play pat-a-cake; they’ve adopted the tactics of street-fighting gangs. There are no rules, no out of bounds when it comes to keeping and maintaining power. If intimidation obfuscation and obstruction don’t work, they’ll escalate. Brinksmanship? These folks have proven time and again they’re willing to burn down the block before letting rivals have it — counting on the fact that Democrats will back down rather than engage them in their reckless insanity.

    You don’t fight gangs and thugs with censure motions. You don’t ask them to cooperate for the 100th time when they’ve refused to cooperate the previous 99 times. You don’t get suckered into fights you can’t win, and once you’ve decided upon a battle worth fighting and winning, you don’t back down until it’s over.

    While impeaching Bush is unlikely to result in a conviction, impeaching Cheney might. As I see it, however, the ultimate benefit of ousting the VP is not getting rid of him but exposing (1) daily administration obstruction, (2) Congressional republicans’ loyalty to party over country, (3) publicity concerning any new offenses the process might reveal. If Democrats could expose the true nature of modern conservatism in a way that resonates with the public — a big if — we’ll be a lot closer to restoring the democratic principles and institutions over which Bush and his cabal have run roughshod.

    Interestingly, I think these same these goals can be accomplished through vigorous Congressional committee investigations into specific administration abuses — without the risk of losing an impeachment conviction. Pick a few you think you can win and take the administration to the mat on them.

    Some will argue that impeachment is the right thing to do, and I’d agree. Unfortunately, Bush, Cheney, Rove, Gonzales, et. al., are merely players in a large and dangerous movement. The real struggle is against modern conservatism. Discrediting hate, fear, authoritarianism and fundamentalism as governing ideologies is imperative if we’re to keep new Bushs, Cheneys, DeLays and Santorums from rising to new levels of power.

    I would rather see our Constitution and institutions restored than to watch them be further destroyed, consoling ourselves that we “did the right thing.”

  • End the war first, then go after the unAmerican scalawags who lied to put us there in the first place.

    In all of this fine mess George Bush has brought us, the media needs to get its groove on and begin the education process for the American people so all of us can see the skullduggery these Cheneyites have forced upon us. I imagine that about 26% of my fellow Americans are not coping with the institutional damage this president has brought our nation for generations to come. These 26%ers need to be brought along in regard to understanding Leahy’s observation: the WH can’t prevent oversight, and then say they’ve done nothing wrong. That puts them above the law, and my neighbors and I don’t condone elected officials’ abuse of power or hoity-toity we’re above the law temperments. With the get out of jail free card, I think the Bush cultists have stepped over the line one too many times.

    So, back to the above – end the war first, then we’ll get the fools who started this unAmerican folly. -Kevo

  • Many thoughtful comments so far. Me? At this point, +I’m for running out the clock. No more judicial confirmations, keep pressing for defunding the war, continue to send stem-cell legislation to the WH, keep pressing the popular democratic agenda on all fronts, expose the republicans as the real obstructionists, and… run out the clock. Impeachment, failed or otherwise, would hand the republicans a political weapon against us and their MSM cronies would help them use it.

  • Jerermy Mayer has the right idea. The goal of the Permanent Republican Majority® is to be able to operate with impunity, much as they did during the 109th Congress. By taking away some of the built-in safeguards that Repubs are counting on to be able to get away their crimes, folks inside the administration might have a little more fear about committing their crimes. If Bush and Cheney’s get out jail free cards get revoked, they may not suffer the punishment they are due, but they will live in greater fear and that will be worth it.

    Close the loopholes that Repubs have for getting away with criminal behavior while in office and force them to walk the straight and narrow.

  • A failed impeachment would be spun by the right, who would be dutifully echoed by the media, as a blanket exoneration of Bush/Cheney. Neither man would resign under threat of impeachment because they know that impeachement probably won’t make it out of the House and definitely wouldn’t pass in the Senate. The rhetoric would be; “See: they didn’t do anything wrong.”

    The right is desperately looking for an excuse for the meltdown in Iraq. What would be better than; “We were winning when you distracted the President with your impeachment.” The neocons, warhawks, most of the media, the Republican base, and everyone else who got it wrong on Iraq would be on this like flies on shit. Within months, Bush, the inept, lying bungler, would be transformed into Bush: the beleaguered President who was stopped short of victory by the backstabbing Democrats.

  • Having thought about Cheney a bit more, I’m leaning further toward favoring impeachment, if only to thwart his wet dream of attacking Iran. The process might reduce his ability to cause mischief in the remaining days of his term, and Bush might be less inclined to listen to him across the board. (Then again, sociopaths don’t react like normal people, so who knows.)

  • been awfully good at keeping their powder dry

    I think this expression refers to being ready to fight (wet powder won’t ignite- it’s powder that hasn’t been taken care of) and not to not fighting.

    There are some other points in comment #7 I don’t like. First of all, I do agree with the point appoint censure- how do we know we’re going to have the votes for this censure motion if we don’t have the votes for impeachment? That was one of the points I was trying to make in my comments.

    But impeachment is specifically set aside for treason, for high crimes and misdemeanors, and that’s about it. I don’t think we have to concede that this is some kind of a partisan gimmick- we know it’s not. It’s for the good of the nation. Even if we don’t know we have 100% proof of some of the things that seem to be going on yet, we’ve seen enough smoke to know there’s a fire, and that’s why impeachment investigations have to begin. Saying things like impeachment should be used on a president who is unpopular or even using it for that reason to me is no good, and is even at odds with the mission of law. Impeachment is explicitly and extraordinary measure.

    I just want to make clear that in my comments when I talked about accountability, I meant Republicans taking measures against their own to enforce the kind of party-line votes that some of us expect would meet an impeachment vote. I think a lot of Republicans, or more than would be obvious, would really want to vote against Bush in an impeachment vote. I think a lot of the support they get in congress nowadays is really due principally to this party-line accountability and less to what the Republicans really want to do. I think a lot of the Republicans are realizing that things like the Iraq war were mistakes but they’re just worried about the party’s internal accountability mechanisms. We have to show them that there is a future beyond the failed dream of Republican-one-party-rule, that there are other options.

  • The constitutional amendment thing sounds great, except the constitutional amendment process is so cumbersome. That’s like a measure for next year or later. A social movement or a pervasive discontent or something really has to be built up before we can get it on the table. It’s probably time to start drafting options and to discuss it in the scholarly lterature, but premature for congress to set the ball rolling.

  • I very much like Jeremy Mayer’s idea for liminting pardons constitutionally. I think we ought to nickname it the “George Bush” amendment, given that it would intend to limit abuses of the pardon power as perpetrated by both presidents Bush.

  • I guess congress talking about an amendment is ok because they need to lay the groundwork and provide potential momentum; a lot of things that are discussed in scholarly literature that may be great ideas never get jumping because they don’t catch the fancy of the legislature, who have plenty of other proposals to think about.

  • I think Smiley may be on to something. Instead of kicking the dead horse – the president wants to run the clock out charge – use the same strategy in laying bare the anti-American shinanigans this Adminstration has subjected us law abiding Americans to: lies to go to war, abuse of classified material to out a CIA officer, signing statements, contempt for oversight, and though the specific list of things is much larger, the ultimate insult this Adminstration has made to me and my acquaintances, contempt for the rule of law.

    I’m with Smiley, stay focused for the next 16 months on presenting evidence to the American people of this Adminstration’s recklessness and its efforts to make our American a one party state. Let’s bring the last 26%ers along by putting a sustained light on the malfeasance of this WH crowd. -Kevo

  • Dems have to be constantly maneuvering to make their moves successful, and constantly stepping out of these nooses the Republicans are throwing on the ground to catch them. They have to think of it like that. You’re working against living, breathing opponents who are going to keep trying to beat you. They’re going to try something else, sooner rather than later, if one thing fails. You can’t just launch and attempt and then sit on your haunches hoping everything works out. You have to carefully plan or even prepare (so long as it doesn’t make too much obvious at the wrong time) ahead of time, and once you launch an effort, you have to watch it and care for it like a small child or a garden. Only by putting everything into it and really working hard for it are out moves going to be successful. That’s just the nature of what we’re dealing with when someone else is out there trying to knock over our ice cream.

  • I can’t believe what I’m reading. So congress wants to go…”Bad Bush, bad. Bad boy.” What, are they going to point fingers at him too, going, “shamey, shamey , shamey ?

    There is no down side to impeachment. Digby worries that the senate would not indict…Duh! It’s like saying the RNC doesn’t think we should so we better not.

    With all the abuses of the constitution Bush team has done already, that we know about, there is 10X as much just waiting to be discovered. The amount of corruption in this administration is overwhelming and running rampant and that is with Bush refusing to cooperate with the subpoenas. After 3mos with a special prosecutor leading the investigation no Republican will be able to support Bush without totally jepoardizing their jobs.

    Impeachment is the only way to make them come clean, otherwise they skate. And as an extra bonus, impeachment is the only tactic that might possibly interfere with their plans to attack Iran by tying Bush’s hands.
    Impeachment would strengthen the Democratic party as being a party that will fight to protect and support the constitution regardless of the odds. The polls show support for impeachment already and if it were pushed in the House it would only gather increasing public support. The public has had enough.
    Never in our history as a nation has there been such a public out cry for impeachment or the need to do so. The need is urgent as most of us live in fear of just what this president might do next.
    Impeachment can only be successful whether Bush is forced to leave office or not his outrages will be made public. Cheney’s secret government will no longer hide his activities. Right now everyone is too afraid to come forward for lack of support from the congressional democrats. What will come out if a special prosecutor is assigned to investigate the WH is everything the Administration is hiding will be made public.

    No impeachment means no respect for the Democratrs in congress. They may win elections as the lesser of 2 evils but not respect and will forever be viewed as the congress that failed to hold the worst and most blatantly corrupt Presidency in the history of our nation…ACCOUNTABLE…simply because it was too inconvenient and they might not be successful. To which all that can be said is, thanks for nothing.

    (Look at the comments any time you mention impeachment.)
    If Pelosi and Conyers ever get on board and just announce it’s back on the table, the ground will shake from all the people jumping up and down with joy. That’s how much we want Bush/Cheney held accountable.

    Please stop thinking Bush does not have the authority to do…whatever it is, and start thinking…but does he have the “power” to do it, because he doesn’t care about the rule of law, only his authority.

  • This morning, John Conyers extolled the virtue of the specter of impeachment, if not impeachment itself, as an inducement to the White House to cooperate with Congress.

    Conyers decried the administration’s stonewalling, adding, “We’re hoping that as the cries for the removal of both Cheney and Bush now reach 46 percent and 58 percent [sic – 54 percent], respectively, for impeachment that we could begin to become a little bit more cooperative, if not amicable, in trying to get to the truth of these matters.”

  • “For that matter, I’ve seen others argue that all of this is folly, and that Congress’ central focus right now should be on ending the war in Iraq, which should take precedent over punishing a lame-duck president who’ll leave office next year anyway.”

    ******The main problem with this thinking is that if we don’t impeach and tie the President’s and Cheney’s hands****they will probably attack Iran and escalate the Iraq war.
    Saying he can’t doesn’t mean he won’t. Bush and Chebney have no intention of ever leaving Iraq that’s why they’ve built an embassy the size of a city and several “permanent” military bases. All of this before he …”leaves office next year anyway” and makes it next to impossible to leave Iraq for the next president…JUST LIKE HE PROMISED. And all because we failed to impeach him.

  • OK, I am someone who would like to go in the White House, grab the bastard, take him out front and hang him from the first available tree.

    And that’s not going to happen.

    Here are the alternatives:

    #1: We have 564 days left of his reign of error. We can get all morally correct and get the Democrats in the House to vote a bill of impeachment that will result in every Republican in the Senate (plus Holy Joe) voting to acquit. The result: much ado about nothing. With the added benefit that it gets all the crazies crazed and active, and the GOP – who right now are full of Bush Fatigue – gets all warmed up for the election next year, and maybe – just maybe – they manage to put another of these sonsofbitches in the Presidency for another four years.

    #2: He stays, we whack away at him for every mistake we know he will make every day of the 564 remaining days, we add on to Bush Fatigue and we make sure the righties come to see clearly what a minority they are. They then end up so badly beaten up that they don’t have much of a campaign next year, and whoever runs runs with Bush wrapped around his neck. The result is that on January 20 the skies open, the sun shines through, and “our long national nightmare is over.”

    Yes, I know alternative #2 smacks of calculation and cynicism,but it’s the choice that has Victory in it. Unlike the choice of being good and moral and pure.

    Take all the rage of wanting to be good and moral and pure and follow Joe Hill’s admonition: “don’t mourn – organize!”

  • Unfortunately, Dennis (#17) has it exactly right, like it or not – and I hate the fact that he has described reality so accurately.

  • #25 – “No impeachment means no respect for the Democrats in congress.”

    Frankly, I don’t think the Democrats in congress give a whole hell of lot of crap whether anyone respects them or not. What will guarantee continuance of the current lack of respect (okay, disapproval) would be continuance of their current failure to even mention impeachment. Whoever came up with that “off the table” bullshit is no longer deserving of respect.

    #28 – “The result: [of impeachment] much ado about nothing.”

    I wouldn’t take it to that next step. We can simply use the remaining time of this congress to hold the most exhaustive and never-ending impeachment hearings ever, compiling a documented list of high crimes and misdemeanors which hold the record forevermore.

  • Bush is really unpopular enough that how the next administration and congress are going to investigate the Bush White House and the GOP and hold them accountable for trying to use the Federal government to take over the country could be a campaign issue. Dems just have to learn to read polls and take advantage of it.

  • I can just hear Obama now, complaining about the bitter partisanship from people who think we should pursue impeachment.

    And that’s what’s wrong with the current Democrats, and with Obama.

    Democrats need to demonstrate they have the courage to stand by their convictions. What this administration has done is morally indefensible and constitutionally illegal. If we don’t think these are grounds for impeachment, then what is? If we don’t think that we are the ones responsible for stopping this wrong, then who are?

  • (sorry if this is a re-post)

    Swan, I said a lot of things in #7, above, but I think they’re all defensible on analytical or practical grounds, or both, so when you say you don’t like *points* I’ve argued, it makes me wonder if you could go through what I said (yeah, I know it’s not the most concise or organized collection of thoughts) and explain what you see differently.

    When I say Dem leaders have been awfully good at keeping their powder dry, I mean that they’ve backed away from a number of confrontations – with a guy at thirty percent or lower in the polls. Call me crazy, but those seem like fights they should be happy to have; it’s like kicking a man when he’s down. Not necessarily particularly sporting, but since Democratic leaders don’t like to take on opponents when the opponents are *popular* (see Bush, reluctance to brand as a liar and cheat, 2001-3), there are only two things to infer:
    1) They need Bush to be *even* less popular before they’ll give him some good kicks. I’d contend Cheney provides a test for this theory – since he’s even less popular, and more overtly corrupt and crooked – but since they don’t seem interested in confronting him effectively, either, that puts more weight behind the other possibility than I’d like to assign.
    2) They don’t want to challenge Republicans at *any* time. Shades of Green Eggs and Ham: they will not confront him on a train, they will not confront him on a plane. I know this sounds cynical, but I’m curious what counter-evidence one might cite.

    And I said impeachment should be easier for Cheney because he’s so unpopular because, as I said above, Democrats seem disinclined to challenge Republicans when they’ve got any popularity, so let’s see what they do with someone who’s utterly unaccountable. Do you think he’s innocent of high crimes and misdemeanors? Do you think someone who *was* committing treason deliberately could have weakened our country so thoroughly in the last six years? Do you think we deserve *one* accountability moment for a rogue administration in eight years? Do you think the “consent of the governed” should mean much? Do you think we have a right to expect it to be respected if we won’t do anything when it’s contradicted so flagrantly?

    But hey, we’re probably better off letting Republicans continue to dictate what we consider to be the realm of the possible, whether it’s having votes and then giving up on them entirely or deciding to preemptively handicap ourselves so that the arbiters of “conventional wisdom” don’t think we’re incivil or unserious. That will, unfortunately, be *entirely* popular with people on *both* sides of the aisle in DC. So congratulations, you’re probably right about that…

  • Re: 32 re: Obama

    I hope Obama’s got a plan more devious than merely decrying partisanship, because (1) partisanship is what keeps Bush from running *completely* rampant over the wishes of a majority of the country, and (2) if he *actually* thinks he can call for an end to partisanship, get it, and govern without inciting Republican obstructionism, he’s completely delusional.

    George W. Bush was able to run on a post-partisan platform because the hard-core partisan wackos during *his* campaign were Republicans, who would sit on their hands if he were to win. That’s why he could run against partisanship, win, and govern without inciting a partisan rebellion: because Dems decided to give him a honeymoon.

    But a *Democrat* won’t get the same honeymoon, either from the other party generally, or from the hard-core partisan wackos, because those people are predominantly conservative, and if Obama – or any other Dem – thinks he’s going to get a free ride from them because he’s attacking over-partisan activity, he or she is going to get a harsh wakeup call.

    And yes, in theory, one might be laying a trap for the conservative partisan wackos, and hope that the media will hold them to the deal a Democrat would make by winning… but I sure wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for the media to treat a Democrat fairly.

    Would you?

  • When I say Dem leaders have been awfully good at keeping their powder dry, I mean that they’ve backed away from a number of confrontations – with a guy at thirty percent or lower in the polls.

    Yeah, I know what you mean, I was just differing with how you used the expression. I know it’s not important, and doesn’t go to the substance of your comments, and is kind of pedantic, but I just think it helps people to be corrected on that kind of thing just so long as it’s constructive criticism and not excessive or uncalled for, etc. It’s kind of like letting someone know their fly is down- I’d rather have someone call me on misusing an expression so I don’t look dumb later when I misuse it again. Think of it as liberals looking out for each other. But the only thing I don’t like is when people expect me to be dumber than I actually am and are always calling me on misusing words or expressions all the time, when if they thought about it for a second most of the times they tried to call me on something they’d realize I wasn’t using it wrong, because that’s too intrusive. Anyway, if you don’t want me calling your comments on pedantic mistakes you can toss me an e-mail and say so, just put “Chris from Carpetbagger Report” in the subject line. That goes for anybody, by the way, who wants to discuss comments I write, but just as a caveat I am not going to forge relationships or continuing e-mail correspondences (“pen pals”) with people I’ve only met over the internet because to me, that’s unwise.

    As far as the impeachment thing, maybe you’re clarifying or changing what you said now, but in your original comment it sounded like you were saying that unpopularity alone was grounds for impeachment, like a “no confidence” vote. My point was that this is not our system of government as set out in the constitution, and impeachments are not “no confidence” votes. Maybe that should change, I don’t know- maybe it would be more and better accountability.

  • My comment at #4 should have said “king” not “kind,” and my coment at #19 should have said “the point about censure” not “the point appoint censure”- ugh.

  • I have been wondering: what happens, legally, to all the internal Bush WH documents, emails etc. when Bush leaves office?

    Do they go to his presidential library, to U.S. archives, what? In theory, can they be turned over to the press, congress etc. by the new administration, if it wants to, or by Freedom of Info. Act requests, subpoenas, etc?

    Of course, in practice the Bushies are going to destroy any incriminating evidence, even if that’s illegal, but I’m wondering what the legal process is.

  • I think in terms of realpolitik, the Republican party and the “conservative” movement in general are probably just about at their most weakened, discredited and demoralized point since probably the end of the Watergate scandal — certainly since the blowback over their failed impeachment attempt of Clinton in ’98. If you’d like to hand them a drum to beat, a banner to wave and an issue to rally around and get their foot soldiers all riled up again, then by Jimminy let’s whip up some articles of impeachment and have at it. Not only might the attempt very well help to pump up Bush’s approval ratings the same way it did Clinton’s, it would unquestionably give every Republican running for Congress next year something to talk about besides Iraq (hint: they would really rather not talk about Iraq).

    Sure it would make them mad at first, but I believe they’d thank you for it in the end. Might even raise a glass in your honor every time the band strikes up Hail to the Chief for Mitt Romney (or whomever). So you just can tell that to anyone who says there’s nothing you could hope to accomplish by initiating impeachment proceedings when you know damed well you don’t have the votes to remove anyone from office. On the contrary, rescuing the right wing from their doldrums would be quite an accomplishment.

  • I still argue that we need to be just slightly more subtle than some of you seem to be suggesting when it comes to impeachment. CalD is right about reviving the right wing’s deflated cause through an impeachment trial which we probably can’t win. I don’t rule out winning (anything is possible in the real world), but I wouldn’t count on it given a) the Democrats’ need to raise campaign funds from the establishment, b) the Republican’s long established practice of never questioning their own, c) the media’s having long ago abandoned its role as government watchdog, and d) the electorate’s complete dumbing down of itself through its addiction to superficial TeeVee.

    But the probability of losing a final Senate vote on impeachment doesn’t mean the process of impeachment shouldn’t be underway. NOW would not be too soon. The House hearings could easily occupy all the time between now and serious political campaigning a year from now. They would provide a platform and a focus for the administration’s most outspoken critics (in and out of government) to document the high crimes and misdemeanors of Cheney, Gonzo and the Shrub, to question anew (with hindsight) Bush’s major decisions — wasting lives and treasure in botched attempts at war, bankrupting future generations through limitless borrowing to pay for those adventures, appointing judges who are liars and who would take us back to the early days of the twentieth century. Such an effort would not be preparation for a “no confidence” vote – which, in our system, would have no effect beyond expressing petulance. Impeachment, under our system, is a political process — a sober, rational process of documenting the crimes of an administration. In taking impeachment “off the table” Pelosi and Reid have deprived us of our most potent weapon … for what? so they can continue playing leader without making any hard choices? so we drift further out of touch with what the American people want?

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