Sunday Discussion Group

Everyone is talking about defections from the Democratic Party. I’m one of the defectors. Apparently our ranks are swelling. In spite of Carpetbagger’s succinct, useful reminders, Oy hits the nail on the head when s/he suggests that Democrats are self-involved and stagnating.

I just can’t figure Dean out anymore. Your thoughts on Dean, Oy?

Oh Yeah, and whatdaya call that thing that tied the Clintons in knots for SEVEN FUCKING YEARS? To the tune of SEVENTY MILLION DOLLARS?

Frist is an idiot. Delay is an idiot and evil. But the business with Abramoff, Norquist, Ralston and Rove (especially Norquist the Islamist enabler); and Rove the National Security leak, this does not appear to be garden variety corruption.

One has to wonder, given the choice, would Karl Rove sell out his country to save his own ass, or to manufacture advantage over a political opponent?

Here is one of the best lines I’ve heard in a long time (and, the “silver lining” if true):

“The legacy of the Bush administration may well be that government can no longer be entrusted to business people.”

OMG, can we possibly see this come to pass!

corruption seems to be a way of life for politicians. just like ugly women
you hate to look at them but still they are necessary.

Money and power corrupt. We saw it with entrenched congressional dems and we’ve seen it with blinding speed with a repug congress. It went faster with the goopers because they were already the party of pandering to wealth, but it happens to all.

To me, what this says loud and clear is that we have to rework districting on a national scale. You can’t get representational government if the only thing that incumbants fear is primary challenges. Opening the field and making the flow of money more transparant is the only way to put more accountability into the process.

For those who lament the lack of a focused message from the dems, dream on. Focused messages are the province of black and white thinking. If you are the party of representing, say, both environmentalism and this country’s poor you can’t think in black and white terms. You actually have to strike a rational balance between, say, protecting the air and keeping masses of workers at a plant from going onto the unemployment line.

The dems have gotten better at message discipline, and will continue to do so as they adjust to being a minority party. But, I doubt we will ever be as good as it as the goopers. Bend over for big business is both simple and profitable, and the gop’s shock troop mental defectives are held largely in check by corrupt, power hungry leaders who are easy to grease.

When dems hold a hard line that some splinter of the party does not agree with,no one steps in and says ‘Satan will win if you shift to voting Green…’ so folks defect. Every defection weakens the party further…

I guess what I’m saying is that lock-step messaging requires infrastructure, which dems are still building, money, which will always be harder to come by when the competition will sell votes and legislation for money, and a willingness to be a complete, pathetic bunch of hypocrits.

Tom Delay fights for a system of forced abortion and sexual slavery of minors in Saipan. This works for repubs because most of their social shock troops aren’t really about ‘values’, but more about power and control anyway. But dems haven’t reached the point were they could care less if someone is a human latrine, provided that person can fund raise and get elections won.

When you are ready to embrace Karl Rove, you’ll be ready to be a gop level message machine…

-jjf

It’s been over a year since Lakoff published his screed, and nobody can figure this out? It is painfully easy to explain.

Nice guys finish last.

That’s all there is to it.

The Democrats are the nice guys. Liberals are all about being “nice”: kind, fair, rule of law, peaceful, caring for those less fortunate, tolerant of religious and sexual practices, encouraging diversity, etc. That’s what we are about. Even our infighting tends to be half-hearted and lame and somewhat indulgent, and is more a function of our belief in diversity– we really don’t like fighting.

Meanwhile the Repugs are the “Winner-Take-All” party. They are the Social Darwinists: the survivial of the fittest, only the meanest, nastiest, most ruthless, most aggressively warmongering, most competitive survive. Get in line behind the Repug Alpha Male, and devil take the hindmost if you don’t.

So, no wonder they win, and we lose. They are all about winning and they *love* to brutally ground our faces in the dirt when we lose; we feel most comfortable when we negotiate to a draw and everyone feels like it’s a win-win for them. We do not punish our adversaries, we reach out in peace and practice “comity”.

Basically, evil always wins, unless and until it destroys itself through its own hubris and overreach (Napoleon, Hitler, all the Colonial empires, etc). Evil isn’t defeated as much as it is outlasted, and allowed to collapse under its own weight. In new-agey or martial arts terms: we beat their Ying energy with Yang energy. So, there *is* a way for nice guys to “win”, but it’s not winning so much as it is just being around when the evil edifice crumbles.

I think the insurgent, grassroots, guerilla, or Gandhi/King passive-resistance strategy fits us best. You can’t beat the Repugs in an open fight. They are all about open fights. We can’t outshout them, out-ruthless them. Best we can do is snipe at them: satire (bless you Jon Stewart and Michael Moore!), grassroots (bless you Howard Dean and Blogistan!), education where possible, and strategically fuck with their infrastructure and keep harrassing them, just to keep the pressure on.

I’d agree with goatchowder, but . . .

Goatchowder is right; the Rethugs are ruthless bullies, and Democrats are many and diverse things, but, generally, not ruthless bullies.

But, . . . Democrats can get really angry. Anger is called for in a situation in which all that is good or decent in the country is at risk. The Republicans are building a fascist State, and they are serious about it. The rule of law is not dead, which is why there are some scandals looming, but the rule of law is under attack.

I don’t fault Democratic bloggers for not marching to a single drum. I do fault them for passively expecting the criminal justice system to bring Bush and his evil minions down.

The media were coopted by the right-wing corporatists a long time ago, which is why Clinton was dogged by a synthetic scandal for seven years. Yet, Democrats seem to think that the criminal justice system is going to prosecute Rove. What is more likely, is that precedents will be established, which provide effective immunity from prosecution for Frist, Rove and, maybe, even DeLay.

Republicans are trying to create a fascist State and the rule of law itself is under attack.

ob catty partisanship: Clinton misuses a $30 Cohiba and gets articles of impeachment; Dumbya misuses a $9 billion surplus and get re-elected.

We lack message discipline because we try to be the party of intellect. We decry the dumbing down of America from the Right — the lack of real science in national science policy, the push to deny evolutionary theory, the overly-simplistic “with us or agin’ us” foreign policy. And we think that a complex country with a complex citizenship and economy cannot – should not – be governed in 30-second soundbites.

All of this would make us much better governors (compare, e.g., economic statistics, poverty statistics, crime statistics, etc. under Clinton with those under either Bush) than the rethugs. If only we could get elected. Which we can’t, because the average voter with their own job, family, life, pressures, etc. only pays attention to government and politics in 30-second increments (if that).

I have long said that I could have gotten in the ring with Tyson at his peak, and won (and I’m an small, old out of shape guy) if he had to fight by the rules and I could kick, gouge, and hit him with the chair from the corner. The rethugs observe no rules. As long as we keep trying to play by rules, we will always lose. Does this mean we have to demean ourselves and sell our souls and be as bad as they are? No. But we do have to be willing to get our hands dirty, we have to learn to get comfortable in the gutter and other not so nice places. And we have to understand that our lofty ideas dont do anyone a damned bit of good shouted from the sidelines. We have to learn to win first and govern later.

The people are ready to hear about how these aren’t Compassionate Conservatives, these are Corrupt Conservatives. We can use clips of their 1984 Contract on, er, With America to compare their words to their deeds and hold them accountable. This can be the beginning of doing to “Conservative” what they so successfully have done to the wonderful term “Liberal.” As was noted above, much of the population has a sense that there are “dots” of questionable behaviour going on. We need to connect them to complete the picture. This really shouldn’t be that hard.

The Republican White House is under a criminal investigation.
The Republican House leader is under a criminal investigation.
And as of this week, the Republican Senate leader is under a criminal investigation. – CB

Meanwhile the Repugs are the “Winner-Take-All” party. – goatchowder

There’s a riot of corruption going on. And it’s really not a greatly different mindset than shown by the looters in any situation where a lack of supervision and total distain for authority leads to anything goes plundering of whatever isn’t welded down. It is percieved as their “due”. They “won” and for the time they stay in office, they will do as they damn well please. It’s their mandate. The people said they could. And if enough cronies and judges and connected beneficiaries can be put in high enough places quickly enough, then the party can continue until the table is picked clean and servants are left to put the mess back in order while they sleep it off in a comfy room for a couple of decades and the table is reset. It’s not corruption, it’s a party.

Why can’t the left, and I mean Dems and non-Dems alike, draw a bead on the Republicans in this way and just keep firing? – Oy

There just seems to be a lack of gumption. Dems have had their butts kicked and there’s no potential reward anticipated in taking the righties on when they keep on winning. It’s easier to wait for the American people to get fed up and beg the Dems to please come back and put it all right again. They don’t want to use the phrase “culture of corruption” because in some/many cases it can come back to haunt them. They’ve been under the table picking up scraps. The Dems want all the attention and indictments to be focused on the right so they can slide back into power behind a fog of outrage.

Neither party is doing us a lot of good these days. I know it’s unrealistic but I think the sadly accurate Culture of Corruption phrase could be used most credibly by a non-GOP/non-Dem entity and chips fall where they may. The “Culture” doesn’t necessarily get the concept of party lines.

There are too many peple like my father – all he cares abuot is getting his taxes loweed (this is a guy who got a free tax-payer supported college education at CCNY but now wants to close the door to everyone else). When you bring up GOP corruption, his reflexive response is “Democrats are corrupt too – they’re all corrupt” – end of discussion. So long as the GOP embraces tax cutting, he’ll ignore or rationalize everything else and give them his loyal vote. And I would image that the same thing applies to other one-issue emotional voters, whether it’s gay marriage or “support the troops”. As long as the GOP appeals ot selfishness and fear and other emotions of the type, they will command a loyal following regardless of corruption.

I agree this is one of the best discussions I’ve seen on this subject in a blog. Oy, I think we’re largely in agreement. At my own blog the other day I was pleading for the same kind of, well, self-leadership on the left. (I keep wanting to say “self-discipline” but that’s such a politically incorrect phrase!)

One of the liberating things about Howard Dean is not that he’s a centrist but that he is intellectually honest and independent in his political positions (mostly!). I think part of the movement away from the Democratic Party as such has come from a lot of us who have fine-tuned our positions on some of the more hot-button issues. This made things difficult for us, ironically, at Dean’s blog when that was going strong. Many of us have become disillusioned with the Deanie urgency that we should speak as one even on issues where we vary, in fact, often quite widely. Lack of independence there was dismaying. Internal variations on the left don’t have to get in the way of a widespread, well-organized effort to go after corruption, corporatism, imperialism and other failures of the Republicans.

So, Oy, where you see disagreements or apparent misinterpretations in my reaction to your cri de coeur, let me reassure you that I agree with the importance of what you are saying: “Let’s use this phrase everywhere, all the time, to talk about how the Republican Party itself is corrupt, until other people start to use it, including the mainstream press! Let’s pick a message and get on it and stay on it just like the nuts on the right!” Some of us may sing the soprano part, others the tenor or bass, and many may no longer be Democrats, but we’re all singing the same song.

Oy – Excellent points. There’s more to flesh it out.

We need several things: 1. Get everyone’s attention. 2. Let everyone know what is truly frightening to our communities about the Right – no mincing words. 3. Let people know what our common ground is – either our common values, i.e. The Left, or Democrats, or the common values of all people – think Barack Obama’s ‘No Red, No Blue, just America’. 4. We need to remind people what we want. 5. Clearly describe with forceful emotion, what our vision is. 6. Tell people simple steps they can take. NO letter writing – We desperately need organizing across current divides and special interests!!!)

Point #1. Lakoff speaks of Repeating, and crafting a message that sets a frame. This is pure Cognitive Science stuff.

What sorely needs to be added to Lakoff is ‘Marketing’ Science (actually marketing knowledge). Think of ‘Marketing’ as getting your message beyond the Choir.

From a marketing point of view the message – ‘GOP Culture of Corruption’ is okay but only ‘okay’. If it were repeated endlessly for months it would rearrange enough people’s brain structure to get some traction. At this point in time people are feeling insecure about Katrina and ‘Terrorism’.

A Marketing campaign would focus on several things as part of a campaign.

Point # 2. Promote messages that push Limbic hot buttons. These get to the ‘fear’ center of our brains. When the ‘fear center’ is engaged it cannot hear anything new. When we are terrified we focus on survival, not learning something new.

Ask yourself – are you afraid of Culture of Corruption, or…… Police State? repression? Attacks on Progressives? Secret Police? Lack of Jobs? A very uncertain future? When you dig deep are you feeling afraid? If that’s the case that message must be out front! People who have been taught for years that Democrats are weak on security, and who are feeling afraid, can only hear your messages when your deepest emotions are at the forefront.

There is another method to get the Limbic brain’s attention so it can be disengaged – Laughter, humor. Think Jon Stewart or Bill Maher. Both of them are delivering devastating blows to the GOP credibility. Bill Maher’s request that Bush resign is the most forceful piece I’ve read in months.

Humor is challenging to do and can backfire if you’re the least bit off. Generally the best strategy is to identify what’s scary about the GOP – really scary to you personally and frightening for your community, not just corrupt.

Southern Democrats used this fear factor very well for decades. It was not nice. It was effective. We judge it for the nasty results they produced. It was a tool. A tool can be used for good or bad. Don’t blame the tool.

Point #3. Common Ground. At this point there are many different pipelines, different special interest groups that form the Democratic Party. Among them are environmentalists, Labor, Minorities. Our common ground is Values, not strategy. Environmentalists benefit from peace. Labor benefits from peacetime job creation and clean air. Minorities benefit from safer chemical plants and greater regulation of them in their communities. We all want more jobs and better ones, better pay, etc.

That common ground is where the discussion on the left must be to be effective. We spend massive amounts of energy defining the most minute detail of the evil doings of the right, and not one iota on what We want, what we share, or what we can do to bridge the divides between us on the left.

Why is the Right winning? Not because they work together and only live for winning. They have surrendered their differences to work for what they believe is their common ground.

We can do the same if we stop paying as much atttention to taking them down

Point #4. Remind people who we are. Remind again and again and again. The 30 second elevator speech should not be: I believe that ‘They’ are bad…. It must be: “I believe in our common goodness and I’m working towards the betterment of our country. I’m afraid the current administration is destroying that common goodwill.” OR…. any of a thousand variations of this. Try it and find out the response! I’ve been doing this for months. So-called ‘Right Wingers’ talk to me. We have wonderful conversations. Then, repeat your elevator speech, and repeat it.

Point #5. Use emotion. If you are uncertain what that is, write down some emotions, i.e. fear, anger, rage, sadness, wistfullness, terror, happiness, giddiness, excitement, etc. Add them to your conversation and writing. For Example: The Culture of Corruption makes me angry. It makes me fearful for America’s future. We need to stop this before it is too late. …. Progressive are supposed to be Empathetic, according to Lakoff. I believe this. Under incessant attack from the Right we have lost sight of this.

In order to be Empathetic we must be emotional. We must understand our emotions in order to understand others. In order to demonstrate our empathy to others they must hear our emotions.

Point #6. Tell people simple steps they can take. Each of us has our own way of Building a better future. We need to reach out to groups who share some of our values. Gay groups need to reach out to homophobic Black churches to find common ground. The Secular Left needs to reach out to Progressive people of faith.

I, a secular leftist, have reached out to Progressive people of faith. I’ve found a common ground that is energizing. I did not expect to feel so hopeful for the future just from the act of reaching out to a group I found to be ‘different’ from me. My beliefs have become stronger as a result, not more religious, just clearer and more powerful.

It’s righteous and awesome. We deserve to be heard beyond the choir, and to regain the power the right has so brazenly corrupted!

WTF? The problem for the left is uppity newcomers like Kos and Atrios? Hint to the clueless: If the Dems hadn’t capitulated to the right at just about every turn for the lat 20 years, those guys would have no market,
I”m out of patience with ‘moderate’ dems who sell out to the right in their quest for moderation Will they ever get that every compromise is one more lurch to the right?

I did not ask for a civil war – but I am unwilling to cede this great nation.to those who crave one Kos and Atrios are not near the problem that Lieberman or Biden present, Until the Dems are willing to represent the actual left, the right will continue to have their way.