Sunday Discussion Group

This week, when Senate Dems split 22-22 on John Roberts’ confirmation vote, there was, shall we say, some consternation from grassroots activists, particularly online. In some circles this meant frustration; in others there was some debate over who should even wear the “D” label.

In response to the concerns, Barack Obama wrote a fascinating item on “Tone, Truth, and the Democratic Party.” The senator suggested it’s a mistake to “vilify good allies, with a lifetime record of battling for progressive causes, over one vote or position.”

[Because blocking Roberts was not a realistic option], attacks on Pat Leahy, Russ Feingold and the other Democrats who, after careful consideration, voted for Roberts make no sense. Russ Feingold, the only Democrat to vote not only against war in Iraq but also against the Patriot Act, doesn’t become complicit in the erosion of civil liberties simply because he chooses to abide by a deeply held and legitimate view that a President, having won a popular election, is entitled to some benefit of the doubt when it comes to judicial appointments. Like it or not, that view has pretty strong support in the Constitution’s design.

The same principle holds with respect to issues other than judicial nominations. My colleague from Illinois, Dick Durbin, spoke out forcefully – and voted against – the Iraqi invasion. He isn’t somehow transformed into a “war supporter” – as I’ve heard some anti-war activists suggest – just because he hasn’t called for an immediate withdrawal of American troops. He may be simply trying to figure out, as I am, how to ensure that U.S. troop withdrawals occur in such a way that we avoid all-out Iraqi civil war, chaos in the Middle East, and much more costly and deadly interventions down the road. A pro-choice Democrat doesn’t become anti-choice because he or she isn’t absolutely convinced that a twelve-year-old girl should be able to get an operation without a parent being notified. A pro-civil rights Democrat doesn’t become complicit in an anti-civil rights agenda because he or she questions the efficacy of certain affirmative action programs. And a pro-union Democrat doesn’t become anti-union if he or she makes a determination that on balance, CAFTA will help American workers more than it will harm them.

Or to make the point differently: How can we ask Republican senators to resist pressure from their right wing and vote against flawed appointees like John Bolton, if we engage in similar rhetoric against Democrats who dissent from our own party line? How can we expect Republican moderates who are concerned about the nation’s fiscal meltdown to ignore Grover Norquist’s threats if we make similar threats to those who buck our party orthodoxy?

Obama went out of his way to explain that he’s calling for Dems to aim for some mushy middle — he rejects the idea of “compromise for compromise sake” and says Dems have not been bold enough on a variety of issues — but seems to suggest the criticisms of other Dems from Dem activists can be excessive and counterproductive.

Does Obama have a point or are grassroots activists helping keep Dems honest?

I may get trashed for saying this, but sometimes I think the netroots are way too demanding. They (we?) expect perfection every time on every issue.

If a good lib senator like Leahy or Feingold vote for Supreme Court nominee who’s going to win anyway, lib talk of punishing them seems insane.

  • I mostly agree with Obama, but I think he misses an important point. I don’t think there is a living Democrat who is not frustrated with the party. At times, and for many people, this frustration crosses the line into anger.

    The internet allows people, with less than Obama’s verbal agility, to publish their opinions. It allows them to publish these instantly, and in many cases, rashly. I don’t see it as a big deal. People generally need to express their anger when they feel it. Anger with these Senators will pass. Most will get over it and move on. Same as it ever was.

    In an ideal world, everyone would give careful consideration to every word. It’s not an ideal world. In the long run, I think it’s a good thing for our elected officials to hear to hear our anger, no matter how rash or overstated it is at the time.

  • The Democratic Party has come in for so much villification because
    it has done little if anything to stop the Bush juggernaut. 22 votes against
    Roberts was worse than pathetic, it was laying down on the road while the elephants stomp all over you.
    The Democratic leadership is worse that useless. It has no coordination and no plans to govern if it ever gets the chance again. It is feeble in its repsonses to Bush initiatives. There is no one right now to get worked up over supporting in the Dem leadership.
    This is like the 1920s all over again. Weak and overly cautious people
    who have no idea how to lead are in charge of the party now.
    Why has it come to this?
    I have a suspicion that in some cases what we are seeing is just too
    good to be true. Are the Democrats THAT stupid to let Bush walk away with the store and then just whimper? No, I have a suspicion that
    at some level people are working for the other side deliberately sabotaging
    the Democratic party. Are there Republican moles inside the party
    working to establish these outcomes? Someone has been bought off
    and has sold us out. This needs to be investigated.
    Bush and his companions have shown themselves to be totally ruthless
    in their tactics. Why not co-opt and buy out Democrats?
    Call it what it is: TREASON! I can’t believe all this is happening just
    because the Democrat leadership is weak and spineless. With all the
    other scandals now breaking I wouldn’t be surprised to see this come out
    as well if it is the case. Do we have an American Stasi (the East
    German secret police) situation going on here( where large numbers of people were co-opted to do the party’s dirty work)? I’d like to find out.

  • Right now the guys in Washington are doing a good job representing the guys in Washington. This needs to stop.

  • It is easy, in opposition, to become simply the mirror image of that which one opposes. The Republicans, always an alliance of the stupid and mediocre, led by the greedy, has evolved into a disciplined force of reactionaries and fascists. If to be a Democrat, is to say “white” when Repubicans say, “black”, Democrats will be different in a superficial way, but no better in any fundamental sense.

    What the country needs is a return to moderation — to a recognition that a responsible politics requires a respectful dialogue between right and left. The great and persistent issues of politics have no perfect, ideal solutions; various interests and values will be opposed at the margin, the details will matter, and compromise is necessary as well as inevitable.

    What Democrats need to recognize is that there can be no compromise with the Republican Party as it exists. In the Senate today, there are only four moderates left, and one of them is dying. Obama asks, “How can we ask Republican senators to resist pressure from their right wing?”, but ignores the allied questions, “Why would we ask?” “What could does it do to ask for 4 votes, when we need 6?” “Did Republicans ask for Democratic votes on Roberts?”

    The netroots, collectively, is not as articulate as Senator Obama, but appears to be more aware of the fundamental problem — the Republican Party must not only be pushed from power, it must be destroyed. Obama offers, in defense of Feingold, the notion that Feingold holds “a deeply held and legitimate view that a President, having won a popular election, is entitled to some benefit of the doubt when it comes to judicial appointments.” Well, that’s not a “legitimate” view of this particular President, at this particular stage in our politics. Feingold needs to wake up, and smell the coffee, and if shouting from the netroots is needed to wake him up, that I say, “louder, louder!”

    I believe that the netroots reflects the need of the country for a moderate, but steadfast leadership, which recognizes the radical and fundamental political change required. Bush and the Republicans are building a fascist State; they must be stopped.

    We cannot ask “moderate Republicans” to assist Democrats in doing right, until there are, again, a significant number of moderate Republicans.

    I believe the 22 Democrats, who voted for Roberts, and a portion of those, who voted against, are living inside a dreamworld. There are two reasons for a Democrat to vote, “yes” on Roberts, neither of which apply to the present moment. One is to signal a willingness to cooperate with the Republican leadership, which does not need them. The second is the desire to appear “moderate” in the narratives of the media; apparently, many Democrats are unaware, after seven years of Whitewater, the war against Gore and the example of the Swift Boat Veterans, that Democrats will never get a favorable narrative from the corporate, right-wing media. Republicans have transformed the once independent and diverse media into a propaganda machine for the fascist state.

    150 years ago, in Illinois, this country found its salvation in an unlikely orator, who managed to combine moderation with steadfastness, to defeat the mad ambitions of a reactionary interest, which wished to subvert the country’s ideals in service to a morally reprehensible economic interest. We live in hope of another.

  • There’s a practical side to this too. “Politics is the art of compromise.”

    In the last few years the “compromise” has been damn far to the right. I could live with something more centrist than left, in preference to something more right than center.

  • Is Mr. Obama advocating a larger grey zone in which to hold our discussions? It would seem beneficial to have a wider area to wiggle around in. Currently we seem to be engaged in constantly backing either the other side or ourselves into corners so we can be obvious about the differences between positions and so any victory can be unambiguous and marketable as a “score” to the appropriate group of supporters.

    Polarization is not benefiting our country as a whole. The Democratic party will not benefit from polarization within the overall dynamic of it’s policy design mechanisms. Republicans may have been better at staying on message during The Hammer’s tenure but the party’s ideals have been compromised greatly and there is noticeable disagreement in the ranks though still not outright rebellion.

    The “My way or the highway” approach won’t work within the Democratic party as a cudgel to create a monolith. Intellectually, the left has more curiosity, depth, individuality and flexibility. As an individual, I hate monoliths and I don’t want to be a part of one. But I would like to see better policymaking in this country so it’s vital that the left leaning political entity in this country create a more understandable and believable set of “stands” on issues. And I think the left is doing an almost useless job of explaining to the public why the goals of the right are self serving, exploitative and really, inhumane.

    We also need to choose and fight our battles more skillfully. That’s where we are basically without leadership. Are the votes for John Roberts by Democrats equal to the votes by Democrats for the Bankruptcy Bill? Some pride is being taken for stopping Social Security “reform” but how much genius did that victory require? We “saved” one of Americas most visible and sacrosanct programs from a bunch of greedheads being publicly represented by a well guarded newt with a proclivity for chewing on his own tail. Now that’s a great accomplishment. And left to their own devices, I’m not sure the Democrats would have “saved Social Security” without the blogosphere shaming them into getting off their butts and confronting the situation with some believable energy.

    In a tip of the hat to one of my favorite musical artists, Jimmy Dale Gilmore, I will use one of his metaphors: The renegades among us are “just the waves, they’re not the water”. We have to understand the ocean beneath us better and be willing to look past self enrichment and petty victories for the betterment of the whole. I don’t know if that is possible.

    Our gov’t is of the corporation, by the corporation and for the corporation. Until we address the fundamental loss of direction our country is experiencing, the votes of certain individuals will be irritating but they won’t be the cause of our wandering.

  • … [Obama] says Dems have not been bold enough on a variety of issues…

    Well there you have it.

    If Barack wants to play the mediator of a splintering party, and lord knows he is perfect for the role, then HE NEEDS to gives us some vision to hang on to…

    HE NEEDS to show us some boldness.

    Make like RFK…. man…
    Make like MLK…. man…

    Else,
    Things are going to fall apart with alacrity.

    Because… at least 20% of the Democratic party is ready to leave for greener pastures….man…

    At least 20%…

    Comprendes?

  • In the history of the country, there has probably never been a time when the grassroots was so tactically savvy. 9 times out of 10, the grassroots IS willing to compromise in order to accomplish a larger goal. What they are not willing to do is compromise in a way that makes the party weaker.

    Ironically, it has been the Washington Dems that have clung, idealistically, to a vision of civil politics that might be appropriate for a high school civics text, but which bears little resemblance to reality. They have been extremely slow to learn that compromising with the GOP rarely gets you to a centrist position. It merely indicates weakness and invites the GOP to grab even more power. The grassroots learned this in November 2000. The D.C. Dems are just learning this now.

    However, as far as Roberts’ nomination is concerned, I don’t believe that a Yes vote is a sellout vote. I think an argument can be made for voting either way. But I don’t blame the grassroots for mistaking a Yes vote for — yet again! — a refusal to confront the GOP.

  • I disagree with Obama and the 22 Dem senators who voted for Roberts. I don’t blame them for not blocking – that is filibustering – Roberts but for not doing what opposition is supposed to do: oppose. The issue was that they had no reason to vote for Roberts. If the Repug executive wants the Dems’ votes, it has to earn them. Instead, we have rather pampered Dem honchos pretending that bipartisanship is still alive and given away what is their most precious resource.

    It takes two sides to play bipartisan and Democrats should not try to play alone what is now a charade.

  • Are we buying into the myth? We know that the GOP is as corrupt a political party as we have ever seen. We have been told that Dems are corrupt for the last two to three decades. I don’t believe thats true but I hear a lot of Dems parrotting this line. I think we’ve been told these things for so long that even we on the left are starting to act like we believe it. We are a big tent party. Have been for a long time. This party covers the gambit when it comes to progressive ideals. We have got to stop buying in to the notion that just because we disagree with politician X or party official Y that they have sold out. Thats why the GOP has been successful in winning elections. Not because they have better ideas or that the majority of Americans agree with them. Its because we get pissed off at some official and decide not to participate. This is the question that we should all be asking ourselves: Are we not always better off with a Democrat, even if we disagree on some points, than we are with any Republican?

  • “But I don’t blame the grassroots for mistaking a Yes vote for β€” yet again! β€” a refusal to confront the GOP.” – space

    I agree space. There’s no satisfaction in seeing any agreement with RepubCo. even when the outcome is pre-ordained. The frustration reflected by netroot’s fuming and outrage toward cross-voting representitives is understandable but it doesn’t seem to be intimidating individuals or the process.

    The biggest jump in respect by politicians for the internet was when prez candidate Dean started raking in mountains of cash in a hurry. Money and votes are what the majority of politicians respond to. If the blogosphere promises more of either or threatens the significant removal of either, a politician will pay attention. Other than those things, at this time, I don’t think politicians are focusing on the zeitgeist of the blogosphere in a way that would modify their behavior.

    “We have been told that Dems are corrupt for the last two to three decades. I don’t believe thats true….” – Jerry B

    “Corrupt” may be an extreme word to use as a catchall bucket to put these guys in but a whiff of decay hovers around the whole political system. I finally watched a really great documentary last night called “The Corporation”. It’s very blunt and thorough in it’s assessment of how cozy the political and corporate worlds have become. Legally, a corporation has many of the rights of a citizen but over the decades, the responsibilities of corporations have been set aside with the ongoing cooperation of our elected officials on both sides of the aisle. A particular activity on behalf of a corporate entity or industry may not be technically illegal and therefore not “corrupt”, (I guess), but it may not make the world a better place to live either.

  • If Democrats in the Senate went all knee-jerky and just voted against every Supreme Court nominee Bush sends them, the only thing that will accomplish is to allow the Republicans to paint them as being partisan obstructionists. IMO, the split vote on Roberts allowed for some degree of disapproval, based on Roberts non-answers of many questions, but allowed for room later in case Bush nominates the second coming of Clarence Thomas who tries to do the same thing. In any case, Bush’s switch to have Roberts replace Rehnquist instead of O’Connor lowered the stakes, given how that change does not alter the current alignment of the Court. Replacing O’Connor with another Scalia or Thomas certainly would do that, and I would expect the Democrats to raise their own stakes accordingly.

  • Yes,. . .Obama has a point AND grassroots activists are helping keep Dems honest?

    What’s with the black & white thinking here????

  • I don’t believe there is anything wrong with a Democrat voting what he believes. In this case, especially, since the outcome was not in doubt. If they though Roberts was OK, why not vote for him. I did not think there was overwhelming evidence to vote against him except that if he’s Bush’s choice, he must be bad.

    However, if Senators want to vote against him because, his papers would not be released by the WH, then that could be a matter of principal on which to object. If that is the case, that reason must be clear.

    Some votes like those for the bankruptcy bill are clearly unprincipaled. I think you can villify that vote. But where Democrats can differ in a positve light from Republicans is that they can place the interests of the nation and their constituents over those of the party. They are not compelled to vote in lockstep. That can be the “Democratic message”.

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