Sunday Discussion Group

March 19, 2006

With a terribly sad three-year anniversary upon us, this Center for American Progress paragraph seemed to summarize the landscape nicely.

“As we approach the third anniversary of the onset of the Iraq war,” neoconservative-turned-Bush-critic Francis Fukuyama writes, “it seems very unlikely that history will judge either the intervention itself or the ideas animating it kindly.” The Bush administration laid out the “ideas animating” the Iraq invasion in its 2002 National Security Strategy. According to the Bush doctrine, “America would have to launch periodic preventive wars to defend itself against rogue states” and “would do this alone, if necessary.” Yet after three years of failed policy in Iraq, the Bush administration yesterday released a “long-overdue” updated National Security Strategy that “offers no second thoughts about the preemption policy” — nor any new ideas for Iraq. “When does consistency become stubbornness…and when does stubbornness become stupidity?” asked Center for American Progress’s Bob Boorstin. “When do you give up a doctrine that’s not working?“

For that matter, this USA Today poll, published on Friday, helped capture the mood of the nation.

Three years after the invasion of Iraq, more than half of Americans say the war there has touched their own lives, a USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll finds. By nearly 3-to-1, they say that impact has been a negative one. For most, the conflict has hit close to home: Six in 10 say a close friend, family member or co-worker has served in Iraq. More than one in 10 say someone close to them has been killed or wounded there. Six in 10 in the poll, taken Friday through Sunday, say the war has had a negative effect on the nation.

The confidence when the invasion was launched has been replaced by second-guessing about the wisdom of going to war and dissatisfaction with the way it’s been waged. In March 2003, Americans by 3-to-1 said the U.S. action in Iraq was morally justified; now 50% say it’s not. A month after the invasion, 85% said the war was going well; now 60% say it’s going badly.

A record 60% say the war hasn’t been “worth it.”

As the war begins its fourth year, and the country reflects on the tragic conflict, what are some of your personal reactions? How has the war affected you? How do you think it’s affected the country (socially, politically, economically, and with regard to our security)? Will the president’s backers ever give up on some of their more ridiculous defenses?

What do you see as the long-term consequences of a war that taken more than 2,300 American lives, left more than 17,000 U.S. troops wounded, and now costs about $150 million a day?

My thought is a “simple” one: Stupid is… as stupid does.

  • An informal poll of sorts…at yesterday’s war protest we were only flipped off twice by passing motorists, compared to the multiple index fingers we saw the last time we protested…. just a few months ago .
    The enraged are becoming quietly sullen.
    The times are achangin…..

  • Let me back up for some perspective. I had no problem with 41’s decision to not go to Baghdad. I did, however, think the end of that conflict was very poorly handled: the terms of the armistice were sloppy and allowed Hussein to retain too much power, and we totally sold out the Shia (although we did better by the Kurds) who were massacred after being led to believe we would aid them iof they rose against Baghdad.

    Fast forward to Dumbya. I was not as opposed to the war as many on the left (including Ms. Geist, with whom I had many spirited discussions). I saw it as almost a contract law issue: to stop us from destroying everything he had at will, which we were doing at the end of 41’s War, Hussein agreed to certain conditions. One was non-interference with weapons inspections. Once he began playing games with the access of the inspectors, and refusing to provide the information needed to verify his compliance, he breached the contract. For that armistice to mean anything, the hostilities rightfully would recommence upon his breach. I didn’t think he necessarily had WMD; it just didn’t matter – he violated teh armistice and there should be consequences.

    That said, I was also not particularly for the war. As I told many with whom I argued on the right, this was the “wrong war, the wrong time, and the wrong leader.” I thought Dumbya bungled the pre-war diplomacy with Europe, and most important, with Turkey. He totally lacked his father’s skills at statesmanship. I saw no indiciation of transition or post-war planning. And I considered N. Korea a much more critical threat.

    Three years in my concerns about the wrong leader and wrong time have been proven correct. For or against the war, only the delusional could argue it has been well-waged. We had too few troops because some hot-dogging civilians wanted to show off a new theory, overriding the Powell Doctrine and the military leadership. We refused to listen to the state department, and as a result, had no plans for rebuilding a governing infrastructure. A likely winnable war (I’d go into that thought more deeply, but it would be many pages long) became a quagmire through naive over-optimism and inability to plan more than a move or two ahead.

    How has it impacted me personally? Not much, except some higher costs for select goods and services, higher state and local fees — all caused by the combination of security costs, war expenses, and Dumbya’s stubborn refusal to ask his rich friends to give the slightest sacrifice of their tax cuts.

    It has, however, gravely impacted the country. Our children, and likely their children, will be paying the costs of what Dumbya has done to the treasury. Our image as a civilized, rational, mature, statesmanlike leader in the world community is in tatters; nearly all of our allegiances save Pakistan are weaker now than when the war began. The foolish machismo of the looney Right scream “who needs ’em, we can go it alone!” as if that is a smart or proud position to be in; they are, in a word, morons.

    The trauma of 2300 dead is, no disrespect intended, nothing compared to the trauma of 17000 alive but wounded, changed forever and having to live with that — to find now skills and new careers, build new lives. They will be a lasting symbol of all that went wrong, and as they grow and change in our communities, this war will take on a new meaning and a new reality far from the battlefield in Iraq.

    The impact of this “little” war against a single, modestly-capable country that is now as long as our involvement in “real” wars WWI and, soon, as long as our involvement in WWII, is only beginning ot be felt. The economic, cultural, and world-image aftershocks will continue, and I haven’t even gotten into how this has helped terrorists recruit, or how it has taken our eye off of the real ball, which is the global al Quida network where we have few remaining resources to apply, or to homeland security, where we lack the remaining money to take important but costly steps like securing ports.

    Dumbya should never have been handed the keys. He is, and has all along, been in way over his head on this one. And whoever let Rummy, Cheney and Wolfie outrank General Powell on this one is truly treasonous.

  • Neither reference addresses the substance of the recent release of documents. Juan Cole (a household name) starts, not by addressing the substance, by calling Mr. Hayes “The notorious liar”, then, in rather tortured prose, states it is “old news”. Hardly a serious rebuttal.

    The other reference “Think Progress” proves the point Mr. Hayes made in his article, Point one that funds were being with held. Point Two, the money quote, “We have all cooperated in the field of intelligence information with some of our friends to encourage the tourists and the investors in the Philippines…The kidnappers were formerly (from the previous year) receiving money and purchasing combat weapons. From now on we (IIS) are not giving them this opportunity and are not on speaking terms with them” is ignored as being vague. Point three again uses the lefts most common dodge when facts get in their way calling it “old news”. NOW THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM THE LEFT DOES NOT WANT TO ADDRESS. The Government of Iraq was on “speaking terms” and had a clear relationship with terrorism.

    I make this reply only to point out to all here I do read read the rebuttal references posted. I have not argured their points simply because they have been even worse than those listed above. Also I once read that for every one who posts, on this or similar sites, there is a much greater number who simply “lurk”. I know those who post here simply put their hands over their ears and sing La La La La……… when presented with facts, I am addressing the “lurkers”.

  • It will take at least a generation for the United States to repair the damage done by Bush and his cronies, that is if the country survives the next three years. Our bellicosity and beligerence has done serious harm to our relationships with long-term friends and allies like France, Germany and Spain. Any goodwill the U.S may have enjoyed immediately post 9-11, has been replaced with open animosity, contempt and mistrust. Rather than making the Middle East more receptive to democracy and liberal society (liberal in the dictionary sense of the word, trolls, look it up), we’ve pushed more countries into the arms of radical fundamentalists. And our actions in places like Abu Ghraib, Guantanomo, and our secret prisons have proven we’re certainly no better than the “Islamofacists” the right claims we’re fighting. The “Saddam tortured and killed his own people” justification for the war has become a sick joke.

    Militarily, our actions have only emboldened our enemies. Iraq is a miserable failure in every sense. Our civilian military leadership lacks the basic competence to organize a parade. How can we be a credible threat to “rogue nations” like Iran, North Korea and Syria? Iran has as much as said “Bring it on.”

    That doesn’t even address the domestic issues we’ve ignored for three long years. I look at the situation we’re in and I become deeply depressed. Neither party has the leadership or the principles to even begin addressing the issues. We are flat out f***ed.

  • Guys, I have to look at it as “over there vs. over here.” And I don’t see any contest in that… I’d much rather do the messy stuff over there, and _if_ we are successful in bringing a representational democracy to the middle east, by the time our grandchildren (and my nephews) are old enough to really have to worry about it, they won’t have to.

    The established theocratical leadership in that area does NOT want this to happen. They do not comprehend a separation of church and state, and true to their deeply entrenched culture, they do not wish to relinquish _any_ power. They’ve been killing a LOT more of their own people than they have of ours. Why?

    We need a solid capitalistic democracy in the middle east. The people are going to have to become multifaceted, and not completely reliant upon oil. Otherwise, when their supplies dry up, we’re going to have some _real_ problems. We’ll be ready. They’ll be wondering where it went, and why can’t they have more (btw, you _really_ need to look at the figures around their energy costs – and usage)? This is NOT going to happen within the space of a sound bite, or even a two hour “special media event.” It’s going to take time. But the seeds are there. People are voting. VOTING. People are rebuilding their country in THEIR image, not in the image of He of Big Statues. In the meantime, people in our country are more concerned with who is on American Idol,and what do the contestants think about diplomacy. That’s pretty damn sad.

  • I’ve also learned that right-wingers like bogie (aka Chuck), waumpuscat (aka Claude), and bogieville (aka dumbass) are the first to wrap themselves in the flag. The first to declare themselves “patriots.” The first to denounce any dissent as un-American and harmful to our troops. But for all of their chest-thumping, hyper-masculine braggadacio they are the last to call for true sacrifice or to make the most important personal sacrifice of actually serving their country. That’s left to middle and lower-class kids we’ve equipped poorly and dropped into the world’s biggest sandbox to fend for themselves.

    Bogie, Waumpuscat and Bogieville are the kind of people who wet their pants at the thought of running into Muslims, or any brown or black-skinned person, in public places. They are safely ensconced in rural or suburban stongholds from which they rarely, if ever, venture. They are most selfish, bigoted, cowardly, and the least Christian and least educated people you’d ever want to meet. People like this should be pushed even further to the margins of American society. They offer nothing.

  • prm
    Site yor references re “selfish, bigoted, cowardly, and the least Christian and least educated people you’d ever want to meet.”

    Again do not debate just call the opposition names and prove us correct re the lefts intellectual ability.

    prm
    Since you accuse some of no sacrifice, site yours.

  • The long term consequences of the Bush adminstration’s actions is American credibility, integrity, honor and accountability. I think this will prove to be a gaping sore that the next adminstration will have to mend.

    Hopefully when the next administration takes over the Country, they ensure that the Bush admin is publicly notified of it’s screw ups. I also hope that a new adminstration educates the public on what has and hasn’t occurred in the 8 years preceeding it’s election – clearing up all the grey areas and uncovering all the hidden information. This reminds me, wasn’t there something about how the administration had hidden public records and US history from the National Archives to “prevent terrorist attacks”? It would be nice to uncover these hidden documents.

    All-in-all, I think the Bush adminstration will need to step up to the plate (or be shoved at the plate) and be held accountable in order to start the process of rebuilding a positive political environment.

  • First, fuck you bogie, and your welfare-tit sucking senile old fart of a progenitor – go slime your way back into the everglades you come from you worthless piece of white trash alligator shit. Maybe they’ll let yopu carry your widdle gun (which has to be much bigger than your penis or you wouldn’t be so concerned about not being able to take it everywhere with you) – you two are proof of what happens when southerners have straight-line family trees.

    To everyone else, sorry – sometimes I really wish computers weren’t so easy that those bipeds who lack frontal lobes and opposable thumbs are able to use them.

    So, how did the war affect me?

    Well, for one thing, nowadays, the reichwing “patriots” who were out organizing boycotts of the advertisers of the places where I work and trying to get my editors to fire me for my “subversion” of opposing the war and calling the president an incompetent moron on the day they were all celebrating what a hero he was going out to the aircraft carrier, haven’t let out a peep in going on nine months now. I guess they’ve sullenly slimed their way back under the rocks where they live. Of course, it helped that the advertisers told them to fuck off, that my reviews sold product, and that my editors told them to go jump off bridges, which was gratifying and in at least one case surprising.

    For another thing, some people who never said anything before have told me I was right and that they were glad I kept talking when all the above was going on to try and silence me.

    I’ve been gratified to be contacted by the new members of the GI Resistance and to work with them on recreating what we did to the imperial legions the last time (it was the GIs against the war who stopped things in Vietnam, folks, by turning the Army into an organization that didn’t work any longer). I’m also sad that there is a need for new members, but the ones who have stepped forward certainly remind me of their brave forbears I was privileged to know back in the day.

    I’m mostly pissed off that a person should have to go through the same bullshit twice in one lifetime, but I have to thank that fucking drooler in the White House and all the lard-brained rightie assholes for getting me mad enough to return to being politically active – I forgot how much fun it is and what cool people you get to know (like you folks here). So, as I said to the main organizer of the boycotts: please – do some more! The more you try, the better things get for me!!!

  • Three years in and Bush expects this to be a problem left to his successor, so three years to get out.

    What is scary about the Bush policy apparatus is they can not rework their doctrines to reflect empirical evidence that it does not work.

    I suppose they must all be subscribers of Intelligent Design 😉

  • Tripping over the trolls this morning. Best to ignore them.
    By responding to them, we accomplish what they’ve set
    out to do: disrupt the process. Why they want to do this
    is a mystery to me. I wouldn’t dream of trying to sabotage
    a right wing site.

    One of the more horrifying aspects of this war is that no
    one has been held accountable for the shocking contrast
    between what we were told going in, and what has
    transpired. The entire administration ought to be impeached
    and convicted for the most egregious blunder and crime in
    American history. And yet, no one is paying a price, nor
    will anyone, for this most horrible of horrible debacles. How
    can that be?

    And 50% of the American people still believe we did
    the right, moral thing.

    This is beyond my comprehension. My poor, tired
    brain simply can’t grasp it.

  • Tom Cleaver
    Do you want your daughter or, in your case since you are probabally using their computer, your parents reading your post above?

    Visit http://www.lucianne.com or other mainstream sites to learn how posters conduct themselves.

    If my reading is correct, sites attract more lurkers then posters, what kind of message are you sending?

    Are the rest of you who post here proud to call Tom “one of us”?

  • Bogie – you are too funny. You tell prm to “site” his/her references when he/she calls you the “least educated people you’d ever want to meet.”

    “Least educated?” Bogie, look in the mirror for your reference. Then get a dictionary and look up the defintion of the words “site” and “cite.”

  • The war was a contrived corporate action for resources and control of stratigic real estate from the very moment it popped into ShrubCo’s pointy and avaricious little brain that they could bully America into Iraq under false pretenses. I knew that then and I know it now.

    Americans have no concept how much money is being wasted and siphoned off in Iraq. The effort to keep the war drums beating while encouraging Americans to keep shopping and to go on about their business has worked splendidly to keep the citizenry complacent and relatively unquestioning. The Air Force is dropping vast inventories of bombs and the military in general is using vast quantities of munitions.

    War is good for business.
    War is good for business.
    War is good for business.
    Follow the money.

    The tens of thousands of Iraqi’s that have been killed by America will not be forgotten. Iraq didn’t knock down the WTC. And we’re not even close to the time when that process of forgetting can begin. The Iraqi’s are dying faster and in greater quantities. They will hate what we’ve done to their pride and their country and to the families wrecked and wounded and humiliated by this thieving Corporate powerplay.

    I’m not even sure if the amount of upheaval and destruction that ShrubCo actually wants has been achieved. There is this rapture thing where Armageddon results from overwhelming chaos and social disfunction.

    Does anyone doubt that pre-emptive war might not include nuclear weapons if the perceived and marketed threat is deemed onerous enough? Shruby’s got his twitchy finger on the button. His nervously tapping little boot rests on the nuclear football.

    This is a LONG “war”. They’ve told us it is. And as long as ShrubCo is in charge, it will be. Whether it needs to be or not.

  • Thanks for the grammar lesson. Now refute the logic…..waiting…..waiting…..waiting……

    Since most references are web SITES, while I will accept your correction, my grammar is not as atrocious as the language.

  • Tripping over the trolls this morning. (That’s funny) Best to ignore them. By responding to them, we accomplish what they’ve set
    out to do: disrupt the process. – Hark

    His Harkness speaks the truth. The scroll bar is a wonderful pest remover.

  • I noticed that Bush is requesting an increase in our spending in Iraq. I believe that when you adjust for inflation, we’re spending either the same or more there a month than we did at the height of the Vietnam War.

    But I thought you can’t just throw more taxpayers’ money at a problem and expect a solution. Isn’t that what conservatives argue?

  • 2Manchu

    Your solution is????

    Please ignore us “trolls” and prove to those who merely “lurk” here that you cannot debate.

    Interesting observation, those here with whom you disagree are called “trolls”, mythical formidable creatures. Those who disagree on mainstream sites such as http://www.lucianne.com are mearly called “pests”. Must be a window into how you view yourselves and the world around you.

  • The English language is very expressive, partly due to its having retained its Anglo-Saxon origins while acquiring an over-layering from Norman-French conquerors in 1066. The Norman-French (words such as manure, urine, intercourse, vagina, penis) tends to be preferred by prudes, though their Anglo-Saxon counterparts pack more punch.

    In honor of the magic of English, and of Tom Cleaver’s courage for saying something we all believe, allow me to repeat Tom’s wonderful paragraph:

    Fuck you bogie, and your welfare-tit sucking senile old fart of a progenitor – go slime your way back into the everglades you come from you worthless piece of white trash alligator shit. Maybe they’ll let you carry your widdle gun (which has to be much bigger than your penis or you wouldn’t be so concerned about not being able to take it everywhere with you) – you two are proof of what happens when southerners have straight-line family trees.

    You all already know my thoughts on the three-year Costly Quagmire and the Bush Crime Family.

  • Gee, Bogie. I am getting tired of correcting you.

    There is no such word as “mearly.” Now, be a good boy/girl and go to the dictionary again. This time look up the word “merely.”

  • (I’ll avoid the pissing contest that’s escalating into a sperm count.)

    I don’t think it would make any difference if we pulled our troops out tomorrow or ten years from now. The result will be the same — a bloodbath and fight for control.

    Beyond that, CB’s question sort of answers itself. I don’t think anyone knows what the long-term consequences of Iraq will be. Because of the way Bush went in — ignoring all warnings and the rest of the world — he made it impossible to get out without great loss of prestige and honor. He has exposed the Achilles Heel of our military, run up incredible debt, and wrecked alliances. Those are only three inarguable results, and I fear that those three alone will create many unpredictable and dangerous consequences. If Bush’s actions don’t affect me at the moment, they are sure to have a devastating impact on me, my family, and all Americans in the near future.

    The problem I have with the opposite point of view is that it is based on the lyrics of a 1960s Dusty Springfield song:

    “wishin’ and ‘hopin’ and thinkin’ and prayin’…”

    That’s a nice dream, but it’s not a strategy.

  • Debate usually entails a reasonable modicum of accepted facts, figures and information laid out in a clear concise argument.

    Debate usually does not entail regurgitation of previously published, written or linked work applied verbatim to a discussion.

    Bogie; I have seen no debate from your end, merely cited facts, figures and innuendo with no reasoned argument from your end. In short I know (and can prove factually) that you are not worthy of our time and effort for substantial reasoned discourse.

    Furthermore your provocative and highly hyperbolic statements reinforce the fact that you warrant no dabate short of invective therefore you are a waste of Bandwidth and shall be ignored.
    So go and earn your keep by taking care of your mother, whom we , the employed, self reliant, high bracket tax payer are supporting with our hard work. As one of those Tax payers, I pay for her care, not your time and bandwidth.

    I wont be suprised by your response I am sure, in fact I know your type so well I know exactly what you will say; so dont waste my time.

  • One would think that Iraq would be the death knoll for yellow-badge-of-cowardice neoconservatism. Give Fukuyama his due, it takes courage to admit that your ideas are just plain wrong.

    But I think in the end Rummy will be pegged as a mentally ill scapegoat and Bush as a ineffectual leader. IE, the George Wiegels of the world will just keep clinging to the same stupid ideas. Only the BS justifications will change.

    -jjf

    P.S. Ignore Bogie – it is tough to be the last person in the room to get the joke. Angry and annoying is an understandable, albiet infantile, response.

  • Tom,

    That’s a very interesting piece you have on your site. I can’t wait to see “Sir! No Sir!” (though when it’ll get to Bellingham WA I haven’t a clue; hopefully it will be carried by Netflix).

  • After I read the post and before I even started reading any of the comments I was positive that one of our opposition visitors would bring up the old saw “we’re fighting them over there so we don’t have to fight them here.” This is tortured logic at best, and is predicated on the assumption that Saddam Hussein had links with al Qaeda and/or weapons of mass destruction with the intent and capabilities of attacking the United States. Both theories have been debunked by the 9/11 Commission and others.

    My personal thoughts on how the war in Iraq has affected the United States are that in five years Bush has managed to destroy the mystique of American goodwill on the global stage. That goodwill is something that has taken decades to build and is now almost gone. We didn’t become the preeminent power in the world without the help and cooperation of our global neighbors. The slow move away from the dollar as the preferred reserve currency is probably a reflection of that seriously diminished goodwill. I think that the rest of the world is intelligent enough to realize that a sudden shift in reserve currencies could cause global economic chaos but I really think that they’re tired of playing footsie with us. (Alibubba said this a lot better than I could have)

    FWIW — A search through Technorati doesn’t even list the site Lucianne. For anyone that isn’t familiar with Technorati they monitor traffic statistics on approximately 31 million websites. Promoting the site as mainstream in a comment seems to be nothing more than a cheap attempt at driving traffic towards a site that isn’t even a blip on the radar.

    FWIW (Part II) — A search through the top 100 political blogs, left and right, shows The Carpetbagger Report as number 83. That’s impressive. I did find one site in my search that had the most interesting name – mensa-barbie — I don’t know if the blog is any good, I just liked the name.

  • “Site yor references re “selfish, bigoted, cowardly, and the least Christian and least educated people you’d ever want to meet.”

    Any of your previous posts on this discussion board ought to do, Chuck.

    As for my sacrifices, let me make this clear: I’m not in the crowd that has the raging hard-on for war and the Christian crusade to bring the Rapture. You and your “your welfare-tit sucking senile old fart of a progenitor” are. The point is you and your ignorant inbred ilk are more likely to let someone do your fighting for you. How patriotic. How noble. How chickenshit and cowardly.

  • Okay, to humor bogie, my point was that this administration (which was supposed to be more efficient and better run because it ran on a “business” model) seems to be adapting the solution (more money rather than concrete goals) that people of his thinking often complain is the “liberal” mindset, especially towards education, health care, and poverty. But that’s exactly what we are seeing now with Iraq: no marked improvement, but the insistence by the White House that there is light at the other end of the tunnel, and we just need a few more billion dollars a month to get there.
    But that just might be the liberal press suppressing the “real” news happening in Iraq. Like………………what? Anyone?

    There is no good solution for Iraq, you are either going to have another decade or two of civil strife, a possible alignment with Iran, or the balkanization of the country. What I don’t see happening for another decade,or at all for that matter, is Jeffersonian democracy with a free-market economy, but I do see us paying more in American lives and treasure, not to mention creating another generation of traumatized, burned-out Iraqis, in that period.

    And trolls are ugly, flesh-eating monsters that turn to stone in sunlight.

  • marcus,
    The 9/11 Commission had Jamie Goerlick on its panel.

    She served in the Clinton administration.

    Therefore, the 9/11 Commission was skewed to the left and should not be take truthfully.

    However, an informant code-named “Curveball” should be.

  • 2Manchu — Good one. The side that supports torture lives in a land of tortured logic.

    And here’s my favorite trollblaster — Trolls are large, ugly humanoids, armed with an oversized, wooden hammer. Unfortunately most of them have really bad aim and continually hit themselves in the head with the aforementioned hammer.

  • I’m mostly pissed off that a person should have to go through the same bullshit twice in one lifetime, but I have to thank that fucking drooler in the White House and all the lard-brained rightie assholes for getting me mad enough to return to being politically active – I forgot how much fun it is and what cool people you get to know (like you folks here). So, as I said to the main organizer of the boycotts: please – do some more! The more you try, the better things get for me!!!

    Comment by Tom Cleaver — 3/19/2006 @ 12:19 pm

    I feel the same way. The one thing (sadly) that GW was right about is that 9-11 changed everything. Some very oppertunistic people took serious advantage of our nation when it cried out for leadership. Instead of leadership we got fear and despotism. Has this war impacted my life personally? Don’t look now, but if you haven’t been impacted, you haven’t got a pulse. Or a brain. I teach high school. Some of the brightest and the best are now in the millitary, and some are already in Iraq. And why? To coverup a pack of lies, and to be sure that certain war profiteers get theirs.

    The solutions are not forthcomming because it is so much easier to break something than to fix it. It is so much easier to squander than to save. There is an entrenched establishment that is getting very wealthy on the blood of our young people. When I think about what George bush has done to this nation, I feel like weeping. When does it stop? When will we ever get our blessed way of life back? Probably not in my lifetime.

    PS to Bogie: it is cite not site

  • I would say the experience of war is going to nudge oour national temper over a little bit (as opposed to not having had a war during this time). But it’s the precise qualitative nature of the effect that’s less determinate.

    For one thing, we can’t count on the full range of effects the war has had on the troops and lessons they’ve learned to be voiced through the MSM in a representative fashion as time passes and as the returned troops have an opportunity to reflect on what they’ve been through.

    It seems to me that people don’t grow up as fast when they don’t have responisbilities at a young age and when they’re allowed to sort of sit back for a long time, even into their twenties. So the experience of war could have a beneficial effect on a lot of people in that way. However on the other hand you have a lot of people who can be corrupted by the experience: people who are easily pushed into things are now put into a situation that is very pushy, so to speak, and are put into a situation with other people who for whatever reasons are now hyper-pushy as compared to how bad they would be out in society. So Abu Ghraib is the rsult of that. What;s the effect of people like that coming back to the US? Mostly I’d say it’s not too good. Despite that, which we can’t forget– it seems MSM is going to be all too eager to forget about all the people who are coming back here maimed or psychologically screwed up– I think it’s impressive how clear a grasp a lot of the troops seem to have of their situation and its significance, despite being in what is, by all accounts, a position of lack of access to news, points of view and analysis about the war.

    I’m just trying to talk about one aspect here- of course I’m neglecting what effect the storyline will have on the national psyche, what the practical repercussions are or will be for out society & our country’s position politically.

  • It seems like a lot of the troops, who maybe wouldn’t have thought so much about it al if they weren’t directly involved, have given a lot of quality to thought to why we’re over there and what our country is up to in the world right now. A lot of them aren’t coming back as zealots. They’re coming back woken up.

  • I am increasingly convinced that the Iraq War, launched for all the wrong reasons in the face of both logic (secular Saddam was not working with fundamentalist Osama) and verified/verifiable fact (no WMD, as many said at the time), ultimately will prove to be a tragic and incredibly costly diversion from the real problems facing our country. Whether it’s growing religious extremism in all the monotheistic faiths leading to a rising tide of violence, the geopolitical aspects of a belligerent and nuclear-armed Iran, America’s unsustainable financial course, or the shock-wave changes that will hit our economy in the next twenty years, Bush’s Splendid Little War has made things worse, and left us with diminished resources to address every other challenge.

    That he seems to have done this for personal and partisan-political reasons (why else does George W. Bush do anything?) only spices the tragedy with a hint of farce.

    Even so, there was a germ of rational and even laudable sentiment buried in the bluster and BS that accompanied Shock and Awe. I don’t think you can equate Paul Wolfowitz, vile though he might be in some respects, with Karl Rove: to Wolfowitz and some other neo-cons, the U.S. had a moral interest in getting rid of our former client Saddam and trying to create something akin to a westernized democracy. And the war-fighting part was not a huge challenge.

    Where we crossed the line from risky to disastrous was with the mismanagement of *every* aspect of the postwar period, from disbanding the Iraqi Army and essentially decapitating the skilled and connected section of Iraq’s workforce through excessive de-Ba’athification (because you couldn’t do anything in Saddam’s Iraq without at least paying lip service to the dictator) to staffing the CPA with the baby-Roves of the College Republicans rather than people who actually understood the work of nation-building.

    I would like to think that the mismanagement in Iraq, as with most every other aspect of American governance since Jan. 20, 2001, would sway our voters away from electing ideologues who have neither the intelligence nor the inclination to really engage with the details of making and implementing policy. But that too is probably wishful thinking.

  • Swan — There’s one aspect on the long-term effects on our troops that ought to get some consideration. I noticed in your comment that you talk about the effects on young people. There is one thing that is different about the Iraq war that makes it much different than previous wars that the United States has fought. Because of the heavy reliance on reserve troops we are dealing with a different age composition. From a recent lecture I attended with a retired Army nurse, we were told the Army is facing facing many more age related ailments, such as heart attacks, than ever before. I’m not sure what the long-term effects will be on this age group (more, less?).

    IMO, the effects of war on the soldiers doesn’t get nearly as much attention as it deserves. I doubt the plight of older soldiers is going to be any better.

  • Well then if the troops tend to be older, they tend to be more likely to have dependents, and so, the effects of this war would tend to be more felt by families (civilians) than they would be if the forces were younger.

  • Although that’s an interesting wrinkle, we shouldn’t forget all the more-impressionable, less-mature enlisted people who are going to come back to our country as barbarians, orotherwise basically screwed up, because of this war.

  • We are going to have another generation of first line leaders who will yell “Never again!”, and insist that the wars of the future not be fought without a well-defined mission, a clear, winnable exit strategy, and the full commitment of this nation to make the sacrifices necessary to reach total victory.

    Unfortunately, you might also have the same kind of cowardly chickenhawks in the halls of government, for whom sacrifice is something somebody “below them” should make, who will commit the next generation of warfighters half-assed and ill-equipped with an undefined and foggy mission.

  • I think that the first is far more likely…

    We’ll have people who will only go for stuff where they can get the polls to all agree, and then they’ll only commit when they’re 100% sure that the polls will all agree afterwards.

    Hence, what may need to happen in an early stage will not happen until it is too late.

    A good example would be Clinton’s handling of WTC bombing #1, and the resulting escalation.

  • “What do you see as the long-term consequences of a war that taken more than 2,300 American lives, left more than 17,000 U.S. troops wounded, and now costs about $150 million a day?”

    Did we get all the schools painted yet?

  • A good example would be Clinton’s handling of WTC bombing #1, and the resulting escalation.

    What escalation would that be? The escalation that captured the mastermind behind the first World Trade Center bombing? Too bad W. couldn’t (and can’t) “escalate” well enough to capture Osama Bin Laden, mastermind of 9-11. It’s not like he had a month’s advance warning or anything, right bogieville?

  • “The one thing (sadly) that GW was right about is that 9-11 changed everything. ” – Gracious

    Actually, Bush is wrong that 9/11 changed everything. He was told by officials of the Clinton administration that Al Qaida was the greatest danger to America. He was told by Richard Clarke that Al Qaida was trying to attack America. And the day after 9/11 he turned around to Richard Clarke and said “find out how IRAQ was involved in 9/11”. So basically nothing changed on 9/11. The real danger before and after was Osama bin Laden, and Bush’s focus before and after was Saddam Hussain.

    Which, basically is how we got to where we are now.

  • A point about the media missing the good news is that in any war, the great majority of the conflicting populations are going about fairly normal efforts to live their lives. Even on the bloodiest days of the world wars, what percentage of the population is actually engaged in direct mayhem?

    I think when we finally leave, we should leave Bush, Cheney and a couple hundred of their most ardent supporters behind at Abu Graib as a consolation prize.

    I actually think that in the very big picture, this administration and its various blunders are a symptom of larger forces at work in this country, rather then cause in and of themselves. Had we had reasonably competent leadership, it would have simply put the day of judgment of a few more decades and the effects on the environment and resources would have been far more detrimental. Remember Eisenhower saw this coming 46 years ago. So, if we accept that the fall was inevitable, it may actually prove to be of long term benefit that it should be playing out as farce. Yes, Iraqi’s are currently bearing the brunt of our political implosion, but if the people doing this had been of the evil genius sort, rather then the small minded morons they appear to be, far, far more damage would be possible. This business, military, fundamentalist alliance is on very thin ice. They no longer have the majority in their thrall and there is a budding civil war in the conservative movement between the true believers and the real politic sorts.

  • Visit http://www.lucianne.com or other mainstream sites to learn how posters conduct themselves.

    This comment has to be responded to.

    Do you really think that any one side has any sort of monopoly on decourum and/or rudeness? Please.

    Read Zinc’s post again (#28) if you want to get an idea of what we mean by debate.

    Then please, attempt to.

    Some will ignore you. Some will call you a douche (you kinda are one). Some may attempt a debate.

    But please. Do one thing. Get rid of the sanctimonious attitude. This isn’t a ladies sewing circle or a 6-year-old girl’s slumber party. When someone calls you out for your bullsh*t, after you’re spewing bullsh*t, this nonsense “this shows how liberals are intolerance” response does nothing of the kind — perhaps you indeed are an assh*le.

  • My, that was rather… hmmm…

    While “obscenity” is allegedly definable by community standards, should one have wherewithall to accumulate enough attorneys in one area, the general slinging of what are commonly referred to as “four letter” words should only be regarded as a crutch, commonly used by those fundamentally crippled by our state-run educational system.

    Guys, if you wouldn’t say it on the floor of the senate, does it belong here? Or maybe you would… Sigh…

    If Gore had been president on 9/11, and we’d then invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, would we be having this discussion? After all, he would have had to do SOMETHING, and the Clinton/Gore White House generally went with public opinion… Which on 9/12/01 was pretty much leaning toward seeing a bunch of heads on sticks.

  • Guys, if you wouldn’t say it on the floor of the senate, does it belong here?

    Ask Dick Cheney that.

    I tried, folks. And got nothing but sanctimony.

    But I’ll put it this way. If Bush was president on 9/11, and had invaded only Afghanistan, would we be having this discussion? Because despite all the nonsense of the last 3 years, and the public opinion running about 65-35 against the Iraq war, a plurality — or more — still support the invasion in Afghanistan and with good reason.

  • to Monsieur Bogieville:

    If President Al Gore had fought this same war the same way and achieved the same incredibly shitty results, the Democrats would have abandoned him in horror and every Republican in this country would be screaming for his head on a plate. Can’t you close your eyes and HEAR the likes of Sean Hannity blasting Gore to Hades and back for, oh, something like a “liberal feel-good exercise in kowtowing to terrorism… throwing away American lives and capital to bring freedom to people who despise us.”

    And that’s the amazing cultural miracle that the Bush administration has wrought: getting hardcore right-wingers — many of whom would be reluctant to shake hands, much less break bread with an orthodox Muslim — to work themselves into a tizzy of concern with the welfare of Iraqis. No Democrat on earth could have pulled that one off.

    The kicker is that, had Gore waged Operation Iraqi Freedom, the LEFT wing would be enraged at him too — for, well, engaging America in an unjust, foolhardy and incompetently waged war. Kinda like now.

    Too bad the GOP didn’t give a tinker’s cuss about Saddam’s vicious little dictatorship back when he was wasting Iranians, Shia and Kurds with his chemical weapons… the ones he bought from the good old US of A. You know — back around the time Reagan that took Iraq OFF the list of terrorist nations… back when the likes of Robert Dole, Alan Simpson and Donald Rumsfeld were kissing Saddam’s ass… back when the only anti-Saddam voices heard in America hailed from the left.

    If Saddam Hussein had never made the fatal error of invading Kuwait (never mind that G.H.W. Bush’s secretary of state James Baker all but gave him permission to do so), he’d be the neocons’ best buddy in the Muslim world today. And he’d still be the vicious little dictator he always was.

  • Well, what is a “just” war that the holy democrats would support?

    I mean, if manufacturing, and using, weapons of mass destruction is not enough, and genocide is not enough, and offering to equip the “enemies of the great satan” is not enough… What is?

    Back in my old apartment building, I had a neighbor who had a bumper sticker that said “war is not the answer.” So, one day I asked her what the question was. She thought for a little while, and this was when some of the few news snippets were actually broadcast about when the Kurdish mass graves were found… She took the sticker off.

    Oh yeah… She’s Jewish… Maybe it was a cultural memory that took it off.

    Now, some of you younger folks need to keep in mind that I was born 20 years after Hitler took the easy way out. I grew up in a small town about 30 minutes from a decent sized city. In that small town were men who had witnessed evil. I’m not exaggerating. You see, in 1941, that town’s national guard unit, which, considering this was coming off the depression, was pretty much every male who could breathe, walk and hold a rifle, was on maneuvers. On an island in the Pacific named Bataan.

    The ones who made it back alive didn’t talk much, but when they did, it was wise to listen.

  • Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Bush along with the rest keep trying to let us know this “history will prove us right”. Displaying their usual arrogance, they believe we who live in these times are just too bone-headed and short-sighted to “get it” and that they are also using it to get around answering for their crimes.

    But they already are in the “history books”, on record as being the most short-sighted, quick-easy-fix that isn’t, and incompetent, as well as all their predictions being wrong. “Last throes” indeed.

    But I believe history will in fact be even harsher with them than we are, because when you look at all their arguments, they are a house of cards, with much of the foundation being based on a fear that hopefully will not engulf as many people in the future, along with ephereal “connections” forming the foundation, along with lies, and twisted logic.

    History won’t be caught up in the fear, and won’t have followed the twisted logic…you know when somene lies, based on lies, and continues spreading them (like a con man) that the victims often, if they could just step out of the web of lies for a second would see it as the sham it is….history has that distance.

    The crushing weight of their deception is already getting the country that so desperately wants to believe to realize that it is, after all, bull.

  • “Well, what is a “just” war that the holy democrats would support?

    I mean, if manufacturing, and using, weapons of mass destruction is not enough, and genocide is not enough, and offering to equip the “enemies of the great satan” is not enough… What is?” – BV

    Well, first of all, while Saddam did at one time have and use WMD, by 2001 he didn’t have any anymore. And in early 2001 Colin Powell said we had him in a box and he had no effective program. Amazing how that claim changed, isn’t it?

    As for Genocide, we didn’t go in to Cambodia. We didn’t go into Rwanda.
    And we haven’t gone into the Sudan to stop the Genocide there.

    As for Saddam’s genocide of the Shia Marsh Arabs in 1991, well, if your man George I hadn’t encouraged them into a revolt then dropped them because of the backroom machinations of his Sunni Saudi handlers they might not 1) started anything, or 2) had the support to win a civil war in 1991.

    As for the offer to arm the enemies of the U.S., with what? He didn’t have any WMD.

    Now, I believe today and I believe in 1991 and 2001 and 2003 there were and are good LIBERAL reasons to go to Baghdad. Supporting the spread of democracy, human rights, support for the authority of the United Nations and just not telling the Shia Marsh Arabs to revolt then dropping them like a sissy that George HW Bush was.

    But George W. didn’t make those arguments. He lied to you to get your support for this war. Just like his father lied to you to get your vote in 1988. So why do you still support this guy?

  • Bogieville,
    Operation Iraqi Freedom is NOT World War II. Stop comparing the two.

    HItler declared war on the United States, Saddam did not.

    Most of the Kurds who were killed by Saddam died during the late 1980s, including the gassing of Halabja in 1988. So how come it was not necessary to act back them, but it is now?

    Bataan is a peninsula of the Philippine island of Luzon. Corregidor is the island that American troops had their last stand against the Japanese.

  • Bogieville: I just can’t let your last post pass without comment.

    The continuing comparison of World War II to the Iraq invasion and occupation is an insult to the veterans of the “Good War” (as named by Studs Terkel). The two aren’t even similar.

    For the younger folk such as yourself (I was born 2 years after the end of WW II), World War II was not a war of choice. It was not a gambit to raise the poll numbers of FDR. From 1941 to 1945 Americans made tremendous personal and communal sacrifices.

    The methodical murder of more than 20 million innocents (a figure even beyond that of the victims of the Jewish Holocaust) was based on a national policy, not a brutal response. And as has been pointed out, Germany declared war on the USA and Japan attacked us.

    The invasion of Iraq was a war of choice. Few Americans have made any sacrifices at all. WW II lasted six years, the occupation of Germany lasted six more. The conquest of Iraq took a few weeks, its occupation is into its fourth year.

    You note that surviving WW II veterans “didn’t talk about it much.” There’s a good reason for that. Veterans who were in combat, on the front lines, — and that includes veterans of ALL wars — know the reality of war, how inglorious and cruel it is. They HATE war, and have learned, firsthand, the foolishness of war. There’s a reason for that, too. When the Pandora’s Box of war is opened, plans and expectations become useless Whole battles are often senseless (the Battle of the Huertgen Forest is a good example, resulting in the death of thousands of American lives for nothing).

    As a veteran myself, I can personally attest to many of the above comments. And as an enlisted, not drafted, veteran of Vietnam, I know a needless war when I see one. George Bush *chose* to inflict this one on Americans an Iraqis. I don’t deny that Saddam was a cruel dictator. The good news is that he is gone. The bad news, for American interests and for many Iraqis is also that Saddam is gone.

    Don’t get me wrong, Bogieville. I am not one who believes there are never times for war. But I believe the invasion of Iraq is one of the many, many exceptions. Bear in mind that World War One, a war that slaughtered a generation, could have been prevented by diplomacy, but the killing began because the combatants lost control.

    If you were born 20 years after 1945, and you believe the Iraq War is that just and important, you should consider joining in. I understand that the U. S. Army has drastically lowered its requirements for enlistment, including age. Remember that the infantry is called the “Queen of Battle” You have a shot at royalty.

  • Doh – Bogieville need to learn to do math – I was born in 1960… Coffee is good, after it begins working.

    And regarding post 59… You seem to be suggesting that the Bataan Death March didn’t happen?

    http://www.military.state.ky.us/kyngemus/by_armory/harrodsburg.htm#Unit

    As for WWI, if that darn fool had realized that people were trying to kill him, and actually done something about it…

    Ali, glad you’re obviously a recruiting physician… Quite frankly, if they’d take me, I’d be there. As it is, I’m 45 years old, and walk with a cane due to some old injuries to knees and an ankle (broke it at Ft. Knox and at Ft. McClellan… Oh joy…).

  • Bogieville,
    No, no, no, do not twist my words around.
    Of course the Bataan Death March happened, and it was a war crime. Just trying to offer a geographical correction to your argument. The site you posted even calls it the Bataan PENINSULA.

  • As an addendum,

    Of course, the Japanese general who was responsible for the death of 20,000 on the March was tried, convicted, and executed in 1946.

    What happened to Saddam after his crushing of the Kurdish uprising? A presidential order from Bush I stating his desire to normalize and improve relations with Iraq.

    How we remember history.

  • Bogieville:

    Regarding Post # 59 (posted by 2Manchu), there is no denial of the Bataan Death March. 2Manchu was simply correcting your geography. Before 1942, and to this day, Bataan remains a peninsula.

    Regarding WW I, the murder of the Archduke Ferdinand of Austria was simply a spark that set off a conflagration.

    The background is complex, but the specific consequence was that, in 1914, all participants had war plans made up for eventualities (as we do today, except in the case of Iraq). In 1914, the common strategy was to mobilize your army faster than you opponent, fight a very nasty (but short) war, and come out on the top of the heap. If you failed to mobilize and attack fast enough, you’d lose. It was the 1914 scenario of the advantage of a “nuclear first strike.”

    So, once the spark set the fire, the diplomats who could put it out were were left in the dust of the armies, and the war that was supposed to last a couple of months, max, went on for almost five years and killed 38 million people. That result was not foreseen.

    I’m sincerely sorry to hear about your injuries. Really. I don’t have any injuries from Vietnam. Just sadness and a sense of betrayal.

    Are you familiar with the Eligibilty Test administered by the Army of South Vietnam? There were two ways to avoid service. One, was that you uncontrolably bled from the nose. The other was that a five-inch ring fit over your head.

    In another few months that may be the U.S. standard. Just wait. They’ll take you. In fact, they’ll soon be taking anybody who’s blind, crippled or crazy. Or just *anybody.*

    Seriously, Bogieville — Think about it all. Read. Turn off Fox news and all the rest of them. Put yourself in the position of an American soldier in Iraq. He’s not the efficient warrior like he was in 2003. Nowadays he’s just a target, and scared to death for good reason. And put yourself in the shoes of an Iraqi. You were afraid of Saddam, so you laid low. But you had electricity and water and medical care, and you could drive down the road without being blown up.

    It’s the “war genie,” Bogieville. Pull the cork and give him a call. He’ll promise you victory, but he’ll take your blood. Win or lose.

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