Sunday Discussion Group

In the short time between the Connecticut Senate primary and the revelation of the thwarted British terrorist plot, Slate’s Jacob Weisberg wrote a fairly controversial critique of [tag]Democrats[/tag], particularly the more progressive elements of the party, and the politics of a [tag]war[/tag] on [tag]terrorism[/tag].

Lieberman’s opponents are not entirely wrong about the war. The invasion of Iraq was, in ways that have since become hard to dispute, a terrible mistake. There were no weapons of mass destruction to be dismantled, we had no plan for occupying the country, and our troops remain there only to prevent the civil war we unleashed from turning into a bigger and more horrific civil war. Just about everyone now agrees that the sooner we find a way to withdraw, the better for us and for the Iraqis.

The problem for the Democrats is that the anti-Lieberman insurgents go far beyond simply opposing Bush’s faulty rationale for the war, his dishonest argumentation for it, and his incompetent execution of it. Many of them appear not to take the wider, global battle against [tag]Islamic[/tag] fanaticism seriously. They see Iraq purely as a symptom of a cynical and politicized right-wing response to Sept. 11, as opposed to a tragic misstep in a bigger conflict. Substantively, this view indicates a fundamental misapprehension of the problem of terrorism. Politically, it points the way to perpetual Democratic defeat.

Weisberg’s use of the phrase “anti-Lieberman [tag]insurgents[/tag]” is overly inflammatory and intended to poison the well — Lieberman’s opponents couldn’t just be “critics,” they had to be “insurgents” — and he argues that “many” of these Dems “appear” not to take Islamic fanaticism seriously, a point which he backs up with literally no examples or support.

That doesn’t mean, however, that the argument is necessarily wrong.

Taking up the Weisberg-may-have-a-point side, Kevin Drum responded:

“[A]side from kvetching about Bush’s policies, the [tag]liberal[/tag] blogosphere has chosen to almost unanimously sit out any substantive discussion of the fight against radical jihadism and what to do about it.

Emphasis counts, and this widespread silence makes it hard to avoid the conclusion that liberal bloggers just don’t find the subject very engaging.

And in the other corner, Digby saw a straw-man in the making.

I’m getting really tired of this. I would really like to see some evidence. This assertion [too many Dems fail to take the wider, global battle against Islamic fanaticism seriously] misrepresents the far more complex view that many of us have that challenges the GOP’s silly neocon manicheanism. If Weisberg wants to endorse Bush’s absurd formulation that’s his privilege. But it is not the only valid way to look at it. […]

Most of us take the threat of Islamic fundamentalism — indeed fundamentalism of all kinds — far more seriously than the Republicans with their comic book and paint ball approach to complex problems. I think most of us feel that Bush has exacerbated the threat to such a degree that we are in vastly more danger today than we were before he undertook his absurd neo-congame. Again when you are actually right about something for some reason these elites consider you a fool and therefore you can’t be taken seriously on national security matters. With that kind of thinking we’ll be lucky to avoid blowing up the planet.

How about you? Regardless of merit or administration incompetence, are Dems and progressive voices guilty of “misapprehension” in addressing the problem of terrorism? Do we too often replace substantive ideas about counterterrorism with (fully justified) criticism of the president’s tragic errors? And if so, what is the progressive message about the threat of Islamic fundamentalism?

CB, you pose three great questions. I’m itching to get at them, but first I must liberate a snatch of vitriol that been burning a hole in my brain all night.. :

  • The invasion of Iraq is a crime

    Bush knowingly lied on intelligence
    Bush knowingly lied on terrorist links
    Bush knowingly lied on inspections

    Bush has untreated Oedipal Iraqophobia

    Bush has genocidal tendencies
    Bush is a maniac
    Bush should be put away

    And they know that

    That’s the most important thing to know

    Whatever the facade, THEY KNOW they are criminals
    Awaiting arraignment
    Stripped drained exposed
    You can see it in their blanched complexion,
    their jerky walk, their croaky laugh,
    their greasy chin and cheesy grin

    Have no fear
    Marshal your forces
    Hone your soundbites
    Rehearse responses
    Test relentlessly
    No stone unturned
    No avenue unprobed
    No quote unsourced
    No word unchecked
    No letter untoggled

    War in Iraq
    War on Iraq
    War in Terror
    War of Terror
    War on Truth
    War by Truth

    Give no quarter
    Hound them to the very gates of Hell
    Be merciless!

  • This is how I respond to Kevin’s assertion that the liberal blogosphere doesn’t talk about how to stop terrorism:

    The liberal blogosphere has talked extensively about what it would do. We support the Afghan war and going after Osame, we support using wiretaps internationally as needed and domestically with court oversight to catch and find terrorists, we support spending our anti-terrorism dollars on checking every container in our ports, we support increased funding and security at chemical and other industrial facilities, we support rebuilding our military and redeploying it to do the most damage to the terrorists, and we support doing this not only for “islamo-fascists” but also for the terrorist killing thousands in the Sudan.

    The thing is, there’s only so many times you can say this and be right about it. We back sensible, rational ways to fight terrorism and that is not sexy so it doesn’t get noticed.

    But the Bush administration continually goes against these senisble policies and creates programs that make us less safe, and it is more urgent that we publicize those incompetent actions that serve to help the terrorists recruit and plan and then deal with the mechanics of how we are going to stop the terrorists when we actually have the power to do it.

  • Wow, that feels sooo much better.

    The invasion of Iraq is a crime. It is a crime of aggression against a sovereign state in international law. There is no issue about that. There is no dispute about that. No qualified person doubts that. We do not need to dissemble on that issue.

    Just go for the jugular. They have no escape and no excuse. They will fall as sure as grass is green.

    Therefore, no need to waste time debating tactical pros and cons — you don’t discuss how badly a robber stole or a murder killed. You take them to justice, you tidy up, make amends and get out, decently.

  • Resolving the Iraq fiasco is the first indispensible step to addressing the problem of terrorism. The illegality, unpopularity, mendacity of the Iraq invasion stymied all qudos, credibility and sympathy for the American cause and its — in others’ eyes often remarkably trivial and inconsequential — vulnerability.

    Aside from being totally illegal, attacking Iraq to assuage Bush’s psychotic obsession, not only destroyed sympathy but threw up a myriad obstacles to dealing with, containing and potentially diminishing the global threat of terrorism.

    It was crack-pot from its very inception. This is not a ‘Bush tragic error’ — this is criminality of unspeakable magnitude. The first thing Dems should do to advance the effectiveness of counterterrorism is to redeem the Iraqi travesty. Go to the world community and apologise, on behalf of the American people. You will be listened to. You will be respected. You will eventual be received with open arms and accorded the love and friendship of humanity you have lost. Then, as a world community we can begin to repair the damage.

  • This issue is part and parcel of American stupidity and simplemindedness and ignorance on nearly all issues. “Manicheanism”, a 3rd century Babylonian religion (the original writings of which have all been lost) built on a dualistic view of the world has come to be a fancy word for “black-and-white” thinking.

    Without really paying any attention to dualism or religion, the Bush Crime Family reduces virtually all issues to “Us v. Them”, which they conflate with “Good v. Evil”. Anyone who attempts to introduce shades of grey, nuance, historical reality, complexity, knowledge beyond the ken of first graders and TeeVee and stage photops is derisively driven out of the conversation. Such details won’t fit in the sound-bite, can’t penetrate to the brain-box, don’t trigger adrenalin rushes, or catch the eye while some is robbing the cash register.

    Looked at coolly, the GOP has become essentially a branch of organized crime. It could be argued that the GOP is organized crime, not just a arm of it. The stakes are certainly more “big time” — not catering to trivial vices like prostitution or gambling, but controlling the world’s resources, arms production, money supply, that sort of thing. The GOP and the Bush Crime Family conspire to drain the working people of America of trillions of their dollars, bankrupting future generations without so much as a lbackward glance. The amazing thing is that they get enough of those working people to conspire (literally “breathe together’) in robbing themselves. And when they don’t want to think about that (which is always) they can turn on the TeeVee and/or go to church.

    The working people of America, unlike their British counterparts, have never identified with the term Working Class. They’ve learned that that’s Communist and therefore Evil. They flinch if you even suggest class warfare. Fighting the crime of planning social disruption, as just happened in Britain, is crime fighting. Here it’s waging a War on Terror (Evil). In Britain it’s solving a problem; here it’s the prelude to Armageddon.

    Nietzsche said that when you’re battling monsters, you must be careful not to become one. Extremist Muslims want Americans to quit wearing makeup and quit drinking liquor. Our Transportation Security Agency has successfully joined their cause at our airports.

    I don’t see any way out of the pit we’re digging ourselves into in America, except maybe through reading (nobody does that) and travel (it’s becoming increasingly uncomfortable as well as costly). Maybe the last fall-back is a black-and-white question: Do you work for a living, Yes or No?

    Honest answers to that simple question should produce an electorate 99% Democrat. Then we could, within the Democratic Party, argue nuances such as proportion of the budget devoted to national defense, degree of outsourcing compatible with national well being, forms of universal national service, “guest worker” (scab) programs, and so on. But, until we ask “Do you work for a living?” we won’t get anywhere. Not together anyway, and not in our interest.

  • Goldilocks, while I can agree with much of what you say, the fact is that Iraq is basically irrelevant to the question of jihadism. (In fact, by discussing it you are falling for the Bush line.) The Muslim sectarianism that is destroying the country is relevant only because of the medieval attitrude of many Muslims of all stripes. And this, as I’ll come back to, is the hardest part of the problem, and one I don’t have a simple solution to — actually, there are no simple solutions to any of this.

    There are, besides the question of overall worldview, three things that anger the jihadists. I’m going to discuss each in a separate post, just to make things easier.

    First is our support for Israel’s existence. (Not just our support for some of the tactics Israeli governments have used, which is a correctable error.)

    But I do not see how we can abandon this, nor, except in rare cases have I seen the ‘liberal blogosphere’ even suggesting this. I am, and I do not see how it is possible not to be, a Zionist in the Herzlian sense.

    This means that, while I consider the supposed religious claims of Israel to specific territories nonsense — as did the early Zionists and even the founders of Israel, who were secularists — I believe the history of anti-Semitism has shown that the Jews need a country of their own for their own protection. Zionism predates the Holocaust, and was, to a great extent a response to the Russian pogroms and the Dreyfus Affair in France.

    But things got worse with the Holocaust, of course, and made the idea of a Jewish homeland vital — and, of course, the Holocaust, and the Dreyfus affair, and other examples of anti-Semitism (Gobeinau – sp? – and Houston Chamberlain, and the PROTOCOLS) were aimed at Jews as an ethnic or ‘racial’ group, irrespective of whether the “Jews” they were discussing were religious, secular, or even had converted to Christianity.

    Unfortunately, this type of anti-Semitism still exists. (Yes, some policies of Israel have exacerbated it, but they have not caused it, and were the policies changed, it would still be almost as strong. After all, the attack on Israel began on the day of its Independence, before such policies could be created.) The PROTOCOLS are still being sold in Arab countries, the anti-Jewish parts of the Qur’an and the Hadiths continue to be preached, and it is not just there. Russia still has a strong streak of anti-Semitism that comes out politically.

    We can’t, and shouldn’t, abandon Israel, but the jihadists will still hate us for our support of it, no matter how much we act to modify its policies, no matter how much we work for a sane two-state solution.

    But this is the least important of their grievances.

  • I probably qualify as someone who doesn’t “take the wider, global battle against Islamic fanaticism seriously” enough in Weisberg’s eyes. How many Americans have died from terrorist attacks compared to the number who die each year from cancer or automobile accidents? My chances or your chances of being killed is far less than the soldier in Iraq faces. We face a threat from terrorists, and we need to respond to it appropriately, but this is far from the greatest problem facing the country today. I’m far more likely to die because I can’t afford healthcare than I am in a terrorist attack.

    I think the scale of our reaction has been absurd. This isn’t WWIII, there is no reason for us to spend 100s of billions of dollars bombing other countries into submission when there doesn’t seem to be any correlation between that and stopping terrorism.

    The police work that the British did recently is an appropriate response. (are we even doing anything to infiltrate these groups?) Spending billions to search cargo containers and protect a very porous border (which we aren’t doing) is a necessary part of the response. Going after known terrorists (as in Afghanistan) is part of the response. Why haven’t we scoured Pakistan for Osama and company?

    On the other hand, Iraq was a huge mistake. Syria and Iran would be huge mistakes. Attacking Muslims in general instead of the specific small terrorist groups which threaten us only strengthens our enemies.

    I object to just about everything that has happened in this “War”. We haven’t done the obvious things which would make us safer, and we have done far too many extremely expensive things which have only increased the ranks of the enemy. The whole thing has been disastrously managed.

  • To turn this debate around, exactly what have the republicans done to combat terror? Al Queda was identified to Bush as the single biggest threat to the United States when he took office. His response was to go on vacation when he was briefed that an attack was imminent. Since then how have we been made safer? How will we prevent the next white supremacist attack on our country? Our military has become seriously weakened, we stopped pursuing Osama, “rogue” states have advanced their nuclear programs, and we have done little to strengthen security in our airports and seaports. We cannot fund needed homeland security projects because our economy is in shambles. Democrats simply are not so shallow in their views that they consider invading and occupying a foreign country as a solution to making our country more secure.

  • I think Nathan nails it.

    Real security at home:inspect cargo containers, secure rail transportation, etc.. Get out of Iraq and deal with the fallout. Go after and capture Bin Laden. Institute anti-terrorist policies based on a true understanding of their motivations rather than the simplistic “they hate our freedom”.

    In short progressives need to treat this like any other problem. It has to be analyzed and solved.

  • The second grievance is our support for certain governments in Muslim countries, perhaps most signally the Sauds and the Mubarrak regime in Egypt. We can change this, but we must be very careful. I am old enough to remember when the ‘overthrow of the Shah’ was a major cause for democratic liberals in America. (And he should have been overthrown. The later events did not change the fact that he was a truly awful and murderous despot.)

    But we made the classic mistake of believing ‘the enemy of our enemy is our friend.’ We assumed that because he was an enemy of liberal democracy, of freedom, etc., that the strongest groups in opposition were liberal believers in Democracy. We utterly failed to realize why men like Khomeni opposed him, or realized that it was Khomeni who would take power. (And of course, Bush did the same thing with Saddam, given his total ignorance of Islam, of the millenium-long mutual hatred of the Sunnis and the Shiites, and the inherent anti-Democratic bias in much of Islam.)

    We DO need to support Democracy in the Muslim world. Not the way Bush and the neo-Cons do, not with invasions and bombs. But we muct make sure we are truly supporting DEMOCRACY, not just the overthrow of anti-Democratic regimes.

    And most of all, we have to make sure the Democracy we support, encourage, and do everything in our political and economic power to support is a SECULAR Democracy, that we do not permit the creation of muttawas, of Religious Policemen — as we seem to have done in Afghanistan.

    How are we going to do this? As with the other parts of this, I don’t have easy answers, just goals.

  • Steve:

    From the beginning, General Wesley Clark has said he did not oppose George W. Bush because he went after terrorists. He opposed Bush because he DIDN’T go after terrorists. For at least two years, Gen. Clark and other Democratic leaders have made a convincing case the Bush policies have reduced our security, not enhanced it, with the Iraq war and occupation as Exhibit A.

    The Washington media again are the last to notice that Democrats are becoming the EFFECTIVE national security party. Note, for example, the 50+ veterans running for Congress this year as Democrats.

  • Part III.
    The issue of Islamic fundamentalism is not new. It’s been around for, maybe, fifteen-hundred years. There were the incursions east into (present day) Pakistan and Afghanistan in the 8th and 9th centuries forcing Buddhists and Vedic people to migrate into the Himalyas and Tibet. They sacked and destroyed vast Universities, monasteries, temples and cultural treasures. To the north from the 11th century on they encroached into the Balkans and central Europe provoking the crusades and other expulsive measures.

    I personally don’t know so much about Islamic doctrine, and I guess not so many non-Islamists do, but one thing has always struck me : they are very iconoclastic. As my teacher told me: ‘They are long on devotion and short on compassion’.

    The first step in constructing a progressive message about the threat of Islamic fundamentalism is to discover what it is within the Islamic faith and tradition that facilitates and fosters fundamentalist extremism. Obviously all Muslims are not terrorists, the same way as all Christians are not terrorists. But there are Muslim terrorists and there are Christian terrorists. The two religions are quite similar in that respect, which has something to do with their common origins. It should therefore be easier for a religion that does not eschew violence as a proselytising tool to understand another religion with a similar disposition.

    The second step is to realise that it is not possible, or even legitimate to attempt to change the ethos and doctrine of another culture’s religion and belief. The best that one can hope to do is to create the best circumstances for the gentler more tolerant aspects of the other religion to florish, while making it clear that there are boundaries that all must respect and that will be protected.

    This is the ground plan, which looks utopian, which it is because reality is messy. But without an ideal, a best-case scenario, you have no scale to measure your policy against. You know the ideal, you know what would be best, and you see how far reality deviates from it. You then roll up your sleeves and get stuck in about fixing the mess. We cannot do it on our own. Everyone must be involved. Jews, Arabs, Christians, a few Buddhists, Hindus, Taoist, Socialists, Muslims, what have you — which of course we’ve already got plenty of prefabricated in the UN and its agencies.

    Dems must invoke and invest in the UN as planet Earth’s plug-and-play conflict resolution machine. Warts and all it’s the best we’ve got, and we should be grateful for it. It is throughs its multilateral resources, properly funded and supported, that we the very best chance of containing and surmounting the terrorist problem (unless, of course, we are only interested in party-political qudos and self-promotion).

    And so the progressive message about the threat of Islamic fundamentalism — and all fundamentalism — is to turn to the only organisation that is truly competent to deal with it, which is exactly what it exists for.

    Any other approach will be partial, unsuccessful and doomed to failure. As we have seen.

  • It’s interesting that Weisberg and any number of other liberal Jewish political writers who have opposed the war in Iraq are suddenly on the side of “middle east stability” following the disaster of Israel’s war-of-choice in Lebanon. It’s reminiscent of the old Communists who were for shooting Hitler until Stalin made a pact with him in 1939, at which point they were no longer in favor of a “capitalist war” until June 22,1941, when good buddy Hitler invaded Uncle Joe’s paradise, and suddenly they were more pro-war than anyone.

    I have a suggestion for Weisberg and the rest of the neozionists (people who have as much connection to real Zionism as the neocons have to real conservatism). According to friends of mine in Israel, the IDF is desperately short of sandbags. Wesiberg and his ilk should immediately jump on a jet for Israel and volunteer, since it’s obvious their heads would be a more than suitable substitute.

  • While these are all great posts I disagree somewhat with some of them. However the point that I want to make is really not seperate form your posts. I blame the american people for not taking an active role of taking their own country back. The most valuable asset that we have in america is the right to vote yet voter turnout runs well below any other nation in the free world. Voter turnout is expected to be about 34% this year which is shameful. I feel that if american citizens can’t take an hour or two out of their busy schedule then they deserve what they get. Connecticutt showed what the power of the vote can do so americans that feel that we are on the wrong path need to insure that people of like minded americans get to the polls in Nov 7th and do their american duty. Lets show those that feal that fear is more powerful than democracy that we’re not afraid of boogiemen and get out the vote.

  • I agree with Shalimar #8.

    We need to calm down, you know fear fear itself and all that. Gary Lipow had a good post on this at Max Speak:

    What we are seeing here is another chain added to the door of the House Called Fear. A lot of well meaning liberals spend time emphasizing how they, and not the Bush administration, are the ones who take terrorism seriously. They want to do things like inspect all freight coming into ports, put advanced explosive sniffing equipment at airline gates and so on. It is a major error to do this without some sort of emphasis on the fact that terrorism does NOT head the list of serious problem. The terror porn scenario of a smuggled nuclear weapon pales compared to the risk of accidental launch of the nuclear weapons still pointed at the U.S. by many former Soviet nations. In more day to day risks, you are at greater risk from hundreds of things in daily life than you are from terrorist attacks – including automobile accidents, work related death and injury. (That’s right – your boss is much more likely to kill you with indifference than a terrorist is on purpose.) Even the comparatively mild global warming we are experiencing as the climate begins to warm kills 50 times the people annually who died on 911. What do you expect once this escalates to major temperature increases?

    ….

    It is not enough to simply be “better” terrorist fighters than those who promote this terrible cowardice. We need to break the frenzy of fear and bloodlust that makes people willing to give up any liberty, to commit any atrocity if Daddy will just save them. The sane people of American need take a new pledge – a pledge against cowards and cowardice. A pledge that their fear of terrorism is not so great they will sacrifice their liberties, their judgment, their sacred honor to stop it. A pledge that fear of terrorism will not cause them to support the continued destruction of Iraq or the terror bombing of Lebanon, or new wars on Iran or Syria. A pledge that they understand that 911 did not change everything – that the laws of physics were not repealed, that bluster was not magically transformed into bravery, that our memorial to the murder of 3,000 people was not to say “evil be thou my good”.

    .

  • This is really just the age-old politicization of the parties’ respective approaches to domestic crime writ large. As long as I can remember, any Democrat who said “we need to look at root causes, not just harsher punishment” was promptly labeled “soft on crime.” Now anyone who says “we need to look for root causes of terrorism” gets labeled as someone who “blames America first.”

    I think part of why it is so easy to politicze terrorism is because it is so hard to do anything else. The true solutions all have major risks, costs, and downsides — and are often hardly visible to a public wanted to see action; bombing the hell out of another country is easy, is visible as a response, and provides a certain catharsis.

    Because we live in the real world, we have to keep politics in mind as we propose an alternative. I think that starts with noting that Osama bin Laden and Mullah Omar remain at large. With noting that “fighting them in Iraq” has only moved them onto the front porch of our best ally, Britain. By asking Americans if they would feel safer if the 2,500 American troops killed in Iraq were instead patrolling borders, airports, seaports, rail and mass-transit, power and water facilities, etc, here at home. By noting that Afghanistan is become re-radicalized due to our inattention.

    But then we have to propose an alternative, not just a critique of Bush. I think one argument — and we can use Bush 43’s own father as the foil against the son — is that you can catch more potential terrorists with a bigger net than a smaller one, and this Administration’s treatment of allies has dangerously reduced the size of the net. Most important in building that net is that we need to engage and build strong ties with moderate Muslin nations, moderate nations in the middle east and Asia, to encourage the silent majority of the Islamic community to take back their religion, to reject militant Islamism. This also has to involve pressure on the Saudis and Egypt to eliminate the madrassas. Bottom line is we need to work with others — and that means knowing how to get along with and play well with others. We need their help (like Britain saved our asses this time).

    We need to phase out of Iraq and redeply many of those troops back to Afghanistan. We also need to work with Pakistan — using arm-twisting if necessary — to get increased special forces into that country, which appears to be the epicenter of most recent terrorist planning.

    We need to argue that under the cronyism of the Bush Administration, anti-terrorism efforts at home have become hopelessly political: Indiana, a key Red-State, gets 8,000 sites designated as protected, while Blue-State New York City losts 40% of its funding; intuitively Americans (outside of Indiana) know this makes no sense. Those resource decisions need to be made on the basis of objective expertise, not pork-barreling as usual. The money needs to go to critical infrastructure and dense population and tourist locations, and to financial, governmental, production, and natural resource bases.

    Finally we need to end the false dualism in the discussions of “military resonse vs. law enforcement.” We need to praise the machismo of law enforcement — and slam Bush for suggesting using police and detectives is a synonym for weak (lets get him in hot water with the folks in blue). All the bombs in the world dont matter if you dont know where to drop them. For foiling terrorists with clear liquids, you need more “CSI” (in the language of the couch-potato public) than you do heavy bombers. More resources need allocated to detection, tracking financial networks, and securing loose nukes around the world — a key area where this Administration has cut funding, putting all of us at increased danger of WMDs in the wrong hands.

    I think there are ways to make the case against the Bush approach and do it from a logical, middle-ground, position of strength that is sufficiently testosterone laden to satisfy the “we like things that go boom” masses of Americans stumbling out of the latest summer movie blockbuster. We just have to be careful and make sure loud progressive voices get to that part and dont just stop at bashing Bush.

  • Weisberg wants us to be supportive of this (as reported at TPM Muckraker)???

    NBC News has learned that U.S. and British authorities had a significant disagreement over when to move in on the suspects in the alleged plot to bring down trans-Atlantic airliners bound for the United States.

    A senior British official knowledgeable about the case said British police were planning to continue to run surveillance for at least another week to try to obtain more evidence, while American officials pressured them to arrest the suspects sooner. The official spoke on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the case.

    In contrast to previous reports, the official suggested an attack was not imminent, saying the suspects had not yet purchased any airline tickets. In fact, some did not even have passports.

  • The problem right now is that comic book and paintball approach (gotta love Digby!) has only inflamed what was already a difficult situation. No good will come until the temperature drops a bit. A declared war against ‘Islamofacism’ does nothing but further fan the flames.

    Every military strike is used by Muslim extremists as a photo-op. Let’s stop doing their PR. What’s needed is an approach with a much lower profile. We need to gather quality intelligence – legally – and in turn, use it intelligently. We need to rebuild relations with allies and improve relations with countries with whom we are not always aligned, and coordinate. No doubt that wingnuts would get hysterical that we’re coddling terrorists, instead of getting tough. But here’s an analogy the paintballers might get: The best way to get after terrorists is from under the radar.

  • I agree Nathan. But so much of our domestic political battle has to do with framing and nuance. The Republicans believe that most people have a simple viewpoint–black and white. They exploit that all the time. Democrats often have the harder task of conveying the argument that all international conflicts should not be viewed in the same way.

    BTW, Ned Lamont did a great job putting forth the Democratic view on Iraq and the WOT this morning on Fox News Sunday.

  • Tom (#18) I thought the last graf from the MSNBC piece was even more damning:

    Monitoring of Rauf, in particular, apparently played a critical role, revealing that the plotters had tested the explosive liquid mixture they planned to use at a location outside Britain. NBC News has previously reported that the explosive mixture was tested in Pakistan. The source said the suspects in Britain had obtained at least some of the materials for the explosive but had not yet actually prepared or mixed it.

    These guys didn’t have airplane tickets. Many didn’t even have passports. And if I’m reading the last line correctly, they possessed no explosives. So while these people were dangerous, and I’m glad they were rounded up, the threat was seriously oversold.

  • The third problem we have is that there is one statement that Bush made that I have to agree with. “They hate us for our freedom.” Not our political freedom, which is seen as a sign of weakness, but our other freedoms. Our diversity — which may be why the terrorists have been, almost exclusively, from other countries. Except for the blind shei and his followers, the terrorists have been from abroad, They don’t attract American Muslims to their cause.

    Our social freedom. Not just the free intermingling of people of all classes, groups, and religions. Most of all our gender equality — no, it isn’t perfect, but it is strong enough to dig into the guts of people warped by Wahabbist ideology.

    And most of all our sexual freedom. The unspoken factor in so much Islamic rage is the sexual repression in Islam, and, to put it simply, the sexual jealousy of people who are forbidden, in some cases, even to ride on mixed public transportation for fear that a man will be tempted. We talk about the absurdity of the hijab and nijab, of burkas, of the ’72 Virgins,’ of the restrictions on women being in the company of men. (And of wives being allowed to be beaten by their husbands, and the homophobia.)

    But these things do exist in Muslim societies, and they aren’t funny. Yes, many Muslim men ignore these restrictions, frequently violently, but frequently even those who do not accept the sexual restrictions still have the sexual attitudes buried deep within them. And the terrorists are also ‘true believers’ who are stricter on themselves than the average Muslim.

    (There was a story on NPR just this last week — I am unaware if it was confirmed — of a grocery store in Iraq being firebombed and people being killed because the store owner refused to arrange his vegetables according to the dictates of the local fanatics. This sounds like a joke, but if it was true, then a person’s livelihood was taken away and lives were lost because he arranged a stalk of celery with a couple of tomatoes and it was viewed as suggestive, looking too much like an aroused male. There have been dress codes enforced — see many Iraqi blogs and the report of Gen. Abazaid (sp?) — and people being killed for improper dress or mingling.

    Even in the West we have seen the murderous results sexual repression can bring in individuals. A society in which it is ingrained far worse than it ever was in the West can create a growing ground for murderous jealousy.

  • Prup, You’re talking about the Balfour agreement and the UN mandate out of which the State of Israel was created. I have to defer to your much greater knowledge of this issue than I have at my fingertips at the moment. My impression is that there was some long-distant historical basis for the creation of the State of Israel where it is now. That also you would need to clarify for us.

    What I understand is that the mandated territory required some (agreed upon?) concession on the part of the indigenous population, the Palestinians. One can understand their discomfort.

    Where does it all begin, and where do we go from here? My impression is that, pre-Holocaust and absent some common human irritabilities, Jews lived wherever they were normally like everyone else. Then some nuts and crackpots get their knickers in a twist about Jews having killed Jesus, or something like that, and.. ‘if only we could get rid of all of them then everything would be perfect..” etc. And everything goes pearshaped, and Europe feels guilty and a homeland is carved out to solve the problem.

    But the problem isn’t solved. And it’s not confined to the Holyland, it’s pandemic. Why can’t people just get along with each other? Why does everyone have to be complaining and criticising and not minding their own business and just chiil out and relax and have a good time?

    I have an answer but I can’t give it — it has to be found.

  • I think Bush is so roundly and deeply detested that it IS easy to condemn him rather than seriously address the threat of terrorism. Bush’s mistakes, particularly the invasion and occupation of Iraq, continue to throw (imported) gasoline on the fire. But Islamic terrorism predates Bush by decades.

    Fanatics are fanatics are fanatics. Neither reason nor victory satisfy them. Conditions in their native countries contribute to their anger and violence, but not all of their fellow men are fanatics. The U.S. can influence, but not control those conditions. And religious fanatics are always the worst, regardless of their religion.

    Terrorists’ forte is destruction. They can’t build anything. They have learned from Vietnam and Afghanistan — and now Lebanon — that unconventional warfare can wear down a powerful enemy. And willingness to commit suicide is a major tactical asset.

    The debacle in Iraq is the antithesis of successful anti-terrorism. I believe that stopping them is a matter of police work. Europe does this well, and Europe has much more experience with terrorists than we do. Close cooperation between allies is critical — a relationship Bush has worked hard to destroy.

    Fanatics are fanatics are fanatics. People who will blow up a wedding party, then blow up the funeral afterwards are not people I want around. I don’t care what makes them tick. We should not become like them, but if we don’t find intelligent ways to stop them, we will reach a point of anger at which we WILL become like them.

    Last but not least, when we have an energy policy that doesn’t depend on MidEast oil, we will be more secure.

  • Actually, this part of the report on the “Terror Plot” pisses me off the most to learn of it:

    The British official said the Americans also argued over the
    timing of the arrest of suspected ringleader Rashid Rauf in
    Pakistan, warning that if he was not taken into custody
    immediately, the U.S. would “render” him or pressure the
    Pakistani government to arrest him.

    British security was concerned that Rauf be taken into custody
    “in circumstances where there was due process,” according to the
    official, so that he could be tried in British courts. Ultimately, this official says, Rauf was arrested over the objections of the British.

    Ah yes, better to send the guy to Gitmo and turn him over to Deadeye Dick’s torture squad than to actually prosecute him and the others. Gotta keep our priorities straight.

    Jacob Weisberg is worse than an idiot.

  • What can we do. I agree with many of the short-term solutions that have been mentioned here. (And I shouldn’t have to say what I have said before, that the Bush Administration has done less to fight terror and more to increase it than seems possible, that it is the Democrats who have been the truly strong party against terror against Osama, Zawahiri and their minions.)

    But what we have to do is to become America again. Ever since Vietnam — and I am old enough that I needed a psychiatrist’s note to keep from being drafted for that horror — and particularly because it was the ‘liberal’s war’ — we have treated the ‘social studies’ cliches about America as being hypocrisies or jokes. (Certainly we never were perfect in our living up to them, but then perfection and humanity rarely coexist.)

    The fact is that we HAVE been the ‘beacon of freedom’ for other countries, the model other countries wanted to emulate — especially when we have lived up to our true liberal principles — politically and frequently socially and personally — especially during the liberal eras of our country’s history. We can, and Democrats should work towards seeing that we do, become that again. We need to reclaim our secularism, our freedom, go back to our equality, work even harder towards our liberal ideals. No, it won’t end the threat of terror right away — and I agree that working with the UN, working with our allies, and increasing our security (as long as it doesn’t hinder our liberty) is necessary.

    In fact, in the short run what we do make make the terrorists more jealous, more angry. But I still believe in people and i freedom, and I happen to think that the appeal of our ideas and ideals sooner or later will surpass the religious appeals that inspire the Al Qaedas.

  • The problem isn’t JUST ISLAMOFASCISM. It’s religious FASCISM of all stripes. We have little groups of people who can’t deal with this world we have and have turned to using religion as a means of gaining power to change it back to some non-existant idea.

    The fanciful part of me wishes that we could turn some part of the world into a religoid zone (oil and nuke free of course) and put all the fanatics (of all religious stripes) to try and build their own version of “heaven.”

    Let them run their part of the world their way and see how it goes. Watch them beat themselves over who is more pious and their refual to accept new knowledge due to dogma. And then when it implodes in a orgy of blood and stupidity, we come in and pick up the pieces.

    On some level, I think actually running things actually helped destroy the credibility of communism and facism which were initially thought to be great ideas till someone actually tried to put it into practice. Of course, the price of these “experiment” proved to be extremely high in blood for everyone involved.

    Just some stupid thoughts on a Sunday.

  • The problem for the Democrats is that the anti-Lieberman insurgents go far beyond simply opposing Bush’s faulty rationale for the war, his dishonest argumentation for it, and his incompetent execution of it. Many of them appear not to take the wider, global battle against Islamic fanaticism seriously. They see Iraq purely as a symptom of a cynical and politicized right-wing response to Sept. 11, as opposed to a tragic misstep in a bigger conflict. Substantively, this view indicates a fundamental misapprehension of the problem of terrorism. Politically, it points the way to perpetual Democratic defeat.

    Weisburg frames his thoughts and objectives around the War. A common tactics and fairly effective until you understand it. Lieberman’s problem is that he’s been supporting incompetancy. It’s not just the war that cost him his senater seat. It’s the Blind supporting the blind. He has in essence become just as incompetant as the Administration. That’s what cost him the seat. The really bad part of this all is that the severe damage that this administration, as well as those that support it, have done to this country. It’s interesting how well Weisberg understands the Republicans miscalculations and has sympathy for them. He appears as blind as Lieberman. As far a a Democratic defeat. I don’t think so. He’ll see more of the same in November. Which you well Slate.

  • By declaring a “War on Terror” Bush elevated terrorists to the level of nationhood thereby defining rules of engagement that excluded normal police work and law enforcement. It’s his infantile megalomania that has denied us a proper and effective solution to the threat of common criminals which is what terrorists fundamentally are.

    Sorry, CB, I cannot formulate “..substantive ideas..” without “..criticism..” (and vehement abuse) of the Shrub. Strangely, they still go together.

  • The conservative columnists, talking heads, and bloggers all know far too well that there is a specific reason why the discussion over terrorism hasn’t taken place. In a word: IRAQ.

    IRAQ has been a 41-month long barricade to the discussion of how best to deal with terrorism. The administration and its friends know this—and the propaganda-spewing puppets who pretend to be the MSM know this as well. It’s easier to make those big daily diatribes with a blown-up marketplace—or a tank—in the background, than it is to just show a police officer doing his job. A handful of police detectives does not lend to the same obscene levels of profiteering as the need to replace the humvees that was inadequately armored when the IED detonated beneath its chassis. small, discrete, fast-moving details of specialists hunting for terror cells do not provide opportunities to talking heads who like to “play soldier.”

    IRAQ is the distraction from the greater issue; the bedsheet of incompetence that shields our eyes—and minds—from the much greater quilt of incompetence that is Herr Bush’s “war on terrah.” A war that, beyond the glitz of the headlines; the glow of the “on-the-air” sign in a broadcast booth; the bright lights of the television studio, has been fought on an atrociously criminalistic scale. Herr Bush’s “war on terrah” is being fought less and less against the terrorist—and, more and more against the American Citizen. It is being fought against our homes; our rights and freedoms; our social fabric; our Constitution.

    If the United States is to successfully engage the terrorist; to take the absolute terror of terrorism itself to the terrorist’s own doorstoop, then it must first negate the “obliquities” of this current administration’s false war on terror—which is little more than a domesticated version of the terrorist’s tactic—to control through vitriol; to control through intimidation; to control through false innuendo, outright lies, and unmitigated fear. The terrorist at home must be completely and irreversibly defeated before the terrorist abroad can be completely and successfully confronted. And the pandering media pimps who are currently ranting about the inadequacies of the Democratic Party from the comfort of their established redoubts—the FOX network, MSNBC, TNR, and there distasteful ilk are, in and of themselves, no less a part of that domestic terror network than are George Bush, Richard Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Dr. Frist, Mr. Negroponte, Mr. Hastert, and all their pathetic, insignificantly-small minions.

    It is time to take the war against global terrorism to the terrorists themselves—beginning here at home. They must be driven from the Oval Office; they must be driven from the halls of Congress; they must be driven from K Street, and the Pentagon, and the NSA—from every facet of government; from every corner of journalism; from every campus commons, every school, and every pulpit. Let our war on terror—a war AGAINST terror—commence, and let it be prosecuted to its fullest and utmost, with a remorselessness superior to that which the Republican Reich has demonstrated upon the American Citizenry, and with equally-superior dosages of both malice and intent….

  • Juan Cole on the causes of terrorism:

    You want to know what causes terrorism? Well, in part it is caused by deviance, by people so warped that they will take innocent lives in a wicked quest to achieve some political or religious goal. In part, terrorists are like bank robbers. Bank robbers desperately want to be rich, but for one reason or another think they are very unlikely to get rich through their ordinary activities. Likewise, terrorists, break the law, both moral and civil, to get what they want. In that sense they are criminals, or, as I say, deviants. But they are not motiveless and do not act out of free-floating generalized hatred for the most part. They have a specific goal in mind.

    Terrorism is also caused when one country militarily occupies another country. That is, it is the military occupation that provides a lot of terrorists with their goal (i.e. to free their country from foreign military occupation). Chicago political scientist Robert Pape has shown that the vast majority of suicide bombings in the past 30 years have come in response to foreign military occupation (or what the terrorists perceived as such). Back in the late 50s and early 60s, the Algerians and the French were locked in such a struggle. The French killed nearly a million Algerians (in a population of 11 million), and the Algerians blew up a lot of French. When the French recognized Algeria as an independent country in 1962, the struggle quickly subsided and by 1963 Algeria wasn’t even a big subject in French newspapers.

    Juan Cole also discusses the history of terrorism in the Middle East. The key is that terrorism is a response to specific problems and not rooted in some free floating “hatred”. And Cole’s analysis of the history of terrorism indicates that it is a response to forgien occupation. Progressive must address this very difficult problem. It is clear however that reducing the occupation by one country, Iraq, would be a start.

  • I agree with Shalimar (#8) and a-train (#16), not that I disagree with the other commenters. We have elevated the problem of terrorism to Biblical proportions, and until the Democrats have the guts to bring the problem into its proper perspective, which would be maybe #20 on a list of national and global priorities, if that, we’re going to continue on this hysterical crusade, continue to promote radical right wing ideology and continue to ignore vastly more important crises like energy, global warming, health care, decline of the middle class through economic globalization, unsustainable planetary population etc. ad nauseum.

    We have got to stop arguing about terrorism from within the context of it being the world’s biggest threat, and call it for what it is. A problem, a big one, but not even in the same league as ordinary crime. Just read the statistics over the years. Terrorism is bush league compared to that. Pun intended.

  • Weisberg could have stopped at the first paragraph he wrote that you excerpted, and it would have been good enough. But when he went on to the next paragraph, he did a Republican move, and it’s this:

    Let’s say the Democrats actually win on a rhetorical point, we’ll call it “Rhetorical point #1” (i.e., “The war in Iraq was wrong and it is a terrible disaster”) by what the pertinent measure of winning the point (“Just about everyone now agrees that…”) happens to be.

    The Republican response can just be a simple, “Yeah, but…” That’s it. Finish the sentence. Here, it’s “Yeah, but… don’t they still not take the war on terror seriously enough?” Yeah, it’s unsubstantiated. And it’s important to notice that and point that out. But it gives the Republicans something additional to stay in response, instead of appearing “shut down,” and that matters for how things look to people. And how things look to people is politics. Also, if the Dems don’t take a second to think about what the “response” really says and to have a response to that ready immediately, it sows the possibility of dissension and confusion among the Dems.

    What Weisberg’s article is really good for is showing us what a Republican response could be like, where they could go next should the war in Iraq continue to deteriorate further– and public and press opinion correspondingly turns more against it. So, it gives us a chance to be ready with and sort of game against that kind of point, and be ready to respond to adequately every damn time we hear it from here on in.

    Finally, it shows why it’s for the best that Dems know the issue of security and terrorism better than their political opponents, that they be able to talk about it comprehensively; and that whenever they are asked a policy question about security by the press, they be ready to answer it with sentences that do not even sound equivocating and that show that they are well-informed and have thought a hell of a lot about the problem.

    As far as the threat of Islamic fundamentalism, every progressive simply has to acknowledge that anyone who seeks to physically threatens the safety of America is a problem that has to be dealt with– regardless of any history, motives, etc. You have to accept that simple premise and start from there before your going to try to talk about or think about any of these mixed security/foreign policy problems.

  • A little more on the “yeah, but…” thing I forgot to put in there:

    Think of it as the Republicans expanding the scope of the question so that they can win where they couldn’t before. If your team plays really badly on a regulation-size field, argue that the dimensions of the field should be drawn differently.

    One thing to do with it is just call it out and point it out immediately. “Yeah, but you’re not really answering the question. You’re not really responding. Even if you don’t like how the Dems sound when they talk about terrorism, your not saying anything about how their approach would have, or could have, produced any worse results than the Republican response (the war in Iraq) has produced. You’re just trying to winnow out of things to make the Democrats look bad when the real issue here is billions of dollars spent, 2,500 American lives lost, and a country that was already in the pits somehow destroyed even further by a very, very rash action. So don’t even start to tell me this ‘the Democrats sound soft’ stuff because the voters are going to be able to tell that that line is just a bunch of excuses.” If something’s a crazy lie or a really unfair distortion, don’t let someone put it out there in front of you without challenging it immediately. Don’t let it look like you think it may be a fair characterization of the facts. And don’t let the audience think that someone who is lying to them again and again is being fair to them.

  • Also, in my comment #34, the lines beginning with the quotation mark in the third paragraph are supposed to be the Democratic response to the Republican “Yeah, but…” move, although I chose to write the Dems’ lines starting with the words “Yeah, but…” as well.

  • Listen.

    Lead the fight to free the world of its dependence on fossil fuels.

    Question where globalization is heading.

    Search our own world views. Are we really happy where we are and where we are going? If our own end is collapse, why fight to bring others to our course? If we value freedom so much, we must let others with alternative visions of the future set their own sails if they do so benevolently. We must admit, that we do threaten the security of others in ways that few of us perceive. This is no “hate America first” viewpoint, but an honest assessment of the state of the world. Pursuing a national policy based upon the collective greed of US citizens is destined to lead us into a world of hurt. We are the world’s biggest takers. We must become the planet’s biggest and best leavers.

  • I have a dilema here (apart from an addiction to blogging) which is that I see a truth which I can attempt to ennunciate, then I trip myself up because I can’t see how to politicise it.

    Here is a truth: a problem is not solved by aggression, it is solved by understanding. I believe I could convince even a neocon (suitably restrained) of that given long enough in the same room. I’d succeed to the extent I could understand where he was coming from (having boned up on John Dean).

    Now if that is true, any approach to a problem like terrorism that involves more aggression (cf. Zeitgeist #17 “..All the bombs in the world dont matter if you dont know where to drop them. ..”) than understanding, is doomed to fail.

    Now dumb that down to a policy soundbite:

    … can’t do it.

    I look at the clock. Been sitting here 15 minutes, missing all the fun. Why?

    Foo kit. If they want boom & doom let them have it. I’m happy. I know where it’s at. It’s karma, see?

  • We libs have many substantive ideas about how to conduct this “war”:

    1. As noted upthread, this isn’t about “They hate us for our freedom”. They hate us for our policies in their parts of the world. That may or may not be enough to change the policies, but that is a different issue;

    2. Terrorism isn’t an ideology, it’s a tactic — among its many definitions is “The war of the weak against the strong”. Again, the issues underneath — our policies, (real and perceived) — are what should be addressed.

    3. To paraphrase somebody erudite, (Napoleon? Talleyrand?): Iraq is worse than a crime, it is a mistake. It violates the military principle which states that you fight the enemy where he is, not where he isn’t.
    The enemy — the people responsible for 9/11 — aren’t in Iraq, they’re in Afghanistan.
    Given that we are (or at least were) the biggest kids on the block, the lesson we should have been teaching the world in 2001 and 2002 is that we won’t put up with groups and the states which lend them aid (Saudia Arabia anyone?) wreaking carnage around the world.
    That’s why the approach should have been two – fold, military where needed and law enforcment where needed. None of this silly -PR campaign driven “War on Terror”.

    4. Specifically, we should have gone heavily into Afghanistan, captured/killed OBL and his pals, stabilized the country and told the Pakistanis back-channel that their continued ownership of nukes is subject to their convincing us on a hour – by – hour basis that they won’t let them fall into the wrong hands.

    5. Then, we should have strengthened our alliances in the area of intelligence exchange/law enforcement cooperation with our allies, and initiated contacts in these areas with such countries as Russia, the Stans, Serbia, etc.

    6. Domestically, we would stop stripping away our freedoms in the service of Rovian – inspired panic, but should focus on actually making the country more secure — increased security for the ports, making sure first responders have what they need, etc.

    7. Most importantly, we would show the world that no terrorist can harm the things this country stands for. Which means No Gitmo, no Abu Graib, no “extraordinary rendition” and especially no Patriot Act.

  • One more example. Let’s say Democrat and his or her opponent are on Tim Russert or Hardball or one of those shows, and the moderator turns the discussion to national security or to the war on Iraq. When the filming is over, the Democrat asks one of his or her staffers to review the tape for how many minutes and seconds he or she spent talking, relative to the Republican opponent.

    In an ideal world, the Dem should have:
    1) Talked longer in total than his/her opponent, and
    2) Spent more time talking about security than his/her opponent.

    Also, how was the time spent? If the Dem indeed spent more time talking, was it because he or she was answering criticism or potential criticism from the opponent or moderator? Or was he or she turning the criticism against the opponent, going on the offensive? Be dynamic. Assess the quality and quantity of what you say.

    Any Dems should think of their opponent, and think to themselves “This security issue is not your issue. It’s my issue. It’s not a good issue for you. It’s going to be a good issue for me.” That’s how much they should own this issue. And then they should make it happen. They should think of how the opponent’s statements and reponses have been inadequate in the past, and how prospective statements in the future may be inadequate. They should do their homework and be ready to talk about the issue in a way that says to the public, “The Democrat was ready to talk about terrorism and security more than the Republican was. He knew more about it. He had obviously well-informed opinions about it. He wasn’t misleading or dilatory.” That’s how much the Dems should own the issue.

  • Case in point. I’ve just been fired — sizzled — by Steve’s (#30) rousing rhetoric, which says in ways I have yet to attain what I have felt and thought for long enough. I am certain there are legions out there who have the same sense of unarticulated knowing who would relish and cherish such erudition. But it feels almost saprophitic — to absorb and feel satisfied by someone else’s exposition of your own deepest thoughts.

    There’s an urgency to “get it out there”, almost to rub people’s nose in it. You feel it has to be proclaimed in some way, because it is so true and so important. But all one faces is a blank wall of derision and incredulity. Is it a hopeless task?

    How, for example, can the truth of a terrorist in president’s clothing be squeezed convincingly — incontrovertibly — into a CNN soundbite?

  • CB quotes Weisberg as saying: ” Many of them [Democrats] appear not to take the wider, global battle against Islamic fanaticism seriously. They see Iraq purely as a symptom of a cynical and politicized right-wing response to Sept. 11, as opposed to a tragic misstep in a bigger conflict. Substantively, this view indicates a fundamental misapprehension of the problem of terrorism.”

    But the point IS that Iraq is a symptom of a cynical response to Sept. 11. Iraq had nothing to do with Sept. 11 and nothing to do with terrorism as a threat to the U.S. Yes, it’s a tragic misstep (to put it lightly) but only until we invaded did it become a breeding ground for terrorism and part of a bigger conflict. Sadly, the “fundamental misapprehension of the problem of terrorism” belongs, wittingly or not, to this criminal administration. And, with such fundamental, irremedial stupidity or disingenuousness, how is any rational discussion possible?

  • The Dems are just as intimidated by the AIPAC thugs as the Republicans, so our ability to turn off the main cause of terrorism is pretty doubtful. As long as The Lobby rules our leaders, we will keep digging, deep in the hole we began to dig in 1948.

    Of course Israel is not the ONLY thing they hate us for, we’ve supported a slew of evil regimes and they know we did it for oil. If we freed ourselves from oil, we could let them work it out themselves, messy as that might be it’s the only course that makes any sense to a country that is unwilling to become a referee in a civil war.

    Americans don’t want to be the world’s policemen. We ca’t be. But our utter addiction to a dwindling resource is going to force us to be one.

  • This is probably a good time to remind ourselves of what happened on 9/11:
    How many of the nineteen terrorists are alive and what are they doing, today?
    Can we agree on just why the building six blocks away from the towers blew up and imploded upon itself?
    Could we really make cell phone calls from airplanes in September of 2001?
    Was Cheney really directing a nationwide air force exercise on September 11, 2001?
    Has the SEC straightened out all the put options on airlines in the days prior to 9/11?
    Are we all clear about the miniature hole in the pentagon created by the airliner?
    well, . . . . maybe the Republicans are ready to move on, rather than belabor such points. Right?

  • Ok, just one more “one more” point I’ve got to make, and then I’m done with this one:

    Just because Weisberg says “Just about everyone now agrees that [the war in Iraq was a mistake]” doesn’t mean that we should now stop talking about Iraq all the time, and go on the defensive about foreign policy.

    Think of the Dems as the star pitcher of a baseball team that has gone to the World Series; his greatest pitch is his fastball. The other team in the series wants to get him to not throw that fastball any more. So what will they do?

    They’ll try anything to get him to stop. They’ll appeal to his pride. They’ll say, “I bet you couldn’t beat us without that fastball, though,” to try to get him to rely on his weaker pitches. They’ll pretend that they’ve seen some falter in his wind-up, or argue that there’s a trend of decreasing average speed, of fastballs his thrown over the past month, to make him think there is something physically wrong with him. They’ll say that they’ve all come to expect his fastball so much, they’ve all prqacticed to hit it so much, that all their hitters are extremely well prepared for it, and will see any pitch he can throw no matter how fast as nothing but old news.

    The Iraq war is the Dems’ fastball because it is the thing the Republicans have screwed up the worst, and with the biggest consequences. For the Dems, criticizing the war in Iraq is going on the offensive in terms of talking about foreign policy.

  • I am not sure what to add. I just got back from vacation at the Hyatt at Cambridge, MD (great resort) and my mind is blank. This happens the first chance to get back onto news and the comments section must be the greatest assortment of issue analysis on the topic. The leading question was a kicker for sure, and the answers show that we do care. My initial take was the standard that we need to be agressive, Salimar (and at least one other) applies some utiltarian perpective. At the end though, terror victims are not accident victims and do require more than a vehicular investigation. Two quick takes: one, London shows, we need a better insider presence (that is human resources), all the technology in the world will not stop a dedicated marginalized group. Second, Iraq being a prime example, we simply don’t understand the area or the culture (and this goes to the elite in this country), as someone who has lived in a thirld world country I found it odd that Americans wanted receipts for the supposed destroyed Iraqi weapons. I will add one further point, until the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is resolved, forget having a resolution.

  • And if so, what is the progressive message about the threat of Islamic fundamentalism?

    This progressive’s message is that the Bush administration and the GOP are part and parcel of that threat. Their policies have given us a new Islamic theocracy, plus a new staging ground for Islamic extremists. Their allies, apparently with their encouragement and support, have destabilized one of the few functioning democracies in the region. Their negligence was instrumental in making the attacks of 9/11 a reality. Consistently, they have diverted resources away from the fight against terrorism to further any number of short-term, purely political goals.

    One hopes this aid and comfort they have given to our avowed enemies is inadvertent. I do not really believe Bush is actively conspiring with Al Qaeda. However, if he were, I cannot imagine what he would have done differently.

  • Iraq is worse than a crime, it is a mistake. — fbg46.

    So it’s a ‘bad’ crime? It’s a horrendous crime. It violates every rule in the book. I’m sorry but to hell with whether it was a mistake militarily or not. A crime is a crime however it is conducted whatever the outcome.

    There was no agreement on military intervention, there was no need for military intervention, there was no justification for it, there was no due process. It was entirely on the whim of one unruly crackpot. Inspections were in progress, Hussein was complying with Security Council Resolution 1441, and the Security Council had made it clear it would not authorise military action. Still the ruffian in president’s clothing road roughshod over all roadblocks, cocking a snoot at the rule of law and world opinion, lying, deceiving and obstructing — just to get his way like the spoiled mummy’s brat he is.

    The trouble is the crime is so gigantic you can hardly recognise it as a crime. Crimes as we know them, ordinary crimes, are piddling compared with what this monster and his associates have unleashed. They should not, they must not and they will not get away with it. That’s ground zero. You cannot sidestep it.

    That it is also harmful to American status in the world, to the American economy, to American psychology, to America’s longterm future is, frankly, incidental. He and his gang have unleashed in the world something that need not have been, and that will not stand. Of course, for political expediency it is ok to highlight the domestic damage such an outrageously criminal undertaking is causing. In that sense it is also a ‘mistake’.

    Maybe Democratic representatives and senators who voted for the attack on Iraq don’t want now to appear indecisive, but clearly they were provided false, misleading and inadequate information precisely with the intent of deceiving them into making a wrong decision. These members should make it clear their votes were obtained under false pretenses and no longer carry validity.

    The Democratic party has to dissociate itself unequivocally from all and any further involvement in the Iraq crime, on which basis it can then formulate a legitimate policy for extrication and reparation, with a vow never to repeat such an offense against the human community again.

  • I have read so much brilliant commentary today that I don’t know what to add to what has already been said: that terrorism is a tactic, not a country. When we allow Bush and Co. or one of his minions to frame the debate we buy into his false premise. What the Dems should be discussing is not how they are Bush-lite and they will be tough.

    They should be talking instead aboout how absolutely stupid Bush is, and what a terrible job he has done on nearly every level. He screws up everything he touches! It’s up to the Dems to fix the mess. National security is no longer the Repugs issue, nor is fiscal responsibility. Their ethical government plank is in shambles. What’s left? Healthcare? Alternative energy? Middle class prosperity? Social Security? The Republicans never cared about any of those problems. All the Dems have to do is remember who they are and what they stand for, and not be afraid to remind the voters of how we have all been screwed by the stupid policies of this bunch of thugs.

  • I really believe we are making this argument solely on the premise that no matter what we do, or how we may change as a country, it doesn’t matter. The terrorists will be out to destroy us, at all costs, under any circumstances, for no other apparant reason than to wipe us out. Regardless of the party in office. I would ask this simple question. Is there any non-Muslem country out there that is not under attack by the Terrorists? If there is, than why? Lets quit assuming that no matter what we do they will always be looking for away to attack us. Could it be our foreign policy? Could it be the way we and other countries like us try to run the affairs of other coutries. I would like to see that debated, rather than what the Dems can do better than the Republicans to keep us safe. If we are happy and content with our foreign policy, than lets figure out how to get them before they get us. otherwise why not debate our options that could change this current dynamic.

  • I have no solution, but would make one point:

    Were it not for oil, we could afford to “do nothing,” i.e. let the current insanity in the Muslim world simply burn itself out, as it will eventually, whatever we or anybody else does.

    Islamic fundamentalist fanaticism is a relatively new phenomenon. When you consider that a generation or two ago, parts of the Muslim world were known as world centers of homosexual “decadence,” the current situation in the Muslim world can be seen for what it is, an aberration that will not last.

  • Democrats need to be criticized for their national security not because they don’t take the “war on terror” seriously but because they lack the imagination to find viable solutions. Democrats are on the defensive on national security issues, and they’ll continue to be on the defensive for as long as they allow Republicans to frame the issue. It’s time to think big and above all different. There are a lot of great ideas represented here. I’d like to here something different than the pablum our Congressional leaders spit out on this issue.

  • Are we guilty of misapprehension in addressing the problem of terrorism? Fair question. Let’s say X number of innocent civilians died in the 9/11 attacks. We know that X + N innocent civilians have died in the Iraq war. Can you apprehend which is the greater terror?

  • ***How, for example, can the truth of a terrorist in president’s clothing be squeezed convincingly — incontrovertibly — into a CNN soundbite?***
    ——————————————————-Goldilocks

    Let CNN know, in no uncertain terms, that their ‘soundbyte” mentality is responsible for the global morass we find ourselves in. Challenge them to give one speaker the time necessary to lay out, in explicit detail, the “niceties” of Herr Bush’s terrorism against the American People. Inform them that, until this “detail-format” type of journalism begins to appear, that a concerted effort to boycott their broadcasts will be undertaken (which, by the way, is how the “right” managed to get their way with the media in general. “We” never threatened to take our money away; they did, and the threat to take money away from the media is “a guaranteed ticket to ride…”).

    Once even a portion of the media provides this benefit, simply employ the tactic of the old Roman Legions that was successful in their early campaigns—Omnia Tempus Habent—“There is Time for Everything.”

    Employ “the time given” to list every last detail in Herr Bush’s criminality, drawing (again) detailed connections between his actions, the actions of the Republican administration, and the Republican Congress, and the war-profiteers. Exercise every available sub-premise to draw the final conclusion that American Freedoms; American Rights;American Blood has been sacrificed for both private ideology and for financial gain.

    This cannot, if it is to be successful, be merely “a war of words.” It must be prosecuted swiftly—and brutally—as a form of “Total War.” This mandates a socioeconomic response….

  • Some outstanding posts in this thread. And even though I’m late to the party, I’d like to throw out what I posted in another thread about how the left should frame the National Security debate.

    Basically, the key is get the American public to realize that “National Security” does NOT mean simply throwing more money at the military — it is something that encompasses all aspects of our lives.

    In conjunction with these steps, the key to stopping terrorism is by transferring the fight against it to the intelligence community, and by strengthening regional law enforcement. As the British have showed, that’s the best way to stop cells within your own country.

    How do we stop it in places other than America? Well, that’s not so easy. After decades of failed policies throughout the Muslim world, America may never be able to recover in the eyes of the older generation — there’s simply too much history of American arrogance and aggression. The only way to stop it is to show the younger generation that we actually do give a crap.

    There needs to be options for young Islamic youth that give them a sense that they have a future — this should (in theory) keep them from turning to radical clerics for direction.

    And, there needs to be more diplomatic pressure on countries like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia to stop acting like our allies while backing those who wish to destroy us.

    Of course, this only stops Islamic terrorism. As the likes of McVeigh showed, there are many other types out there, which is why a total approach could work much, much better.

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