Sunday Discussion Group

The presidential fields, on both sides of the aisle, are slowly taking shape. Exploratory committees are in place; fundraising is underway; the race for staffers is fairly intense; and we’re already seeing early polls in Iowa and New Hampshire. Voters, activists, reporters, and establishment types are starting to decide what, exactly, is the most important quality in a presidential candidate.

And a whole lot of them have decided that “electability” trumps them all.

For a party long known for subjecting presidential wannabes to a battery of litmus tests, on issues from abortion to trade, Democrats are uniting in raising one big issue for 2008: electability.

It’s not just Dems. In one of the more noteworthy campaign-related blog posts of the week, Red State noted the GOP field this week with some disdain — and noted the candidate most deserving of far-right support can’t win.

They all suck. Let’s just admit it. Every one of the thus far announced Republican candidates for President sucks. From the lecherous adulterer to the egomaniacal nut job to the flip-flopping opportunist with the perfect hair to the guy who hates brown people to the guy we’ve never heard of to the guy who has a better chance of getting hit by a meteor while being consumed by a blue whale being struck by lightening.

They all suck. (Well, okay, Brownback doesn’t suck at all, but I perceive no viability for his candidacy.)

Obviously, no political observer — at least, one anxious to see their “side” win a presidential election — wants to see their party nominate a candidate who’s certain to lose. But is “electability” really the trait voters should consider during the primary process? And for that matter, are voters any good at figuring who’s electable and who isn’t?

TNR’s Jonathan Cohn recently suggested that judging presidential candidates based on how well they’re likely to compete in a general election may not be the best idea.

The reaction to Senator Barack Obama’s forays into Iowa and New Hampshire last month was nothing short of spectacular. “We originally scheduled the Rolling Stones,” New Hampshire Governor John Lynch quipped, “but we canceled them when we figured out that Senator Obama would sell more tickets.” Still, the better Obama performed, the more one question began to dog him: Was such a young candidate, particularly an African-American one, electable? “I think he’s a serious candidate, but I don’t think he has great potential [to win a national election],” one skeptical New Hampshire voter told The New York Times’ Adam Nagourney. “No track record, and there are too many guys ahead of him in line.”

Of course, electability questions are old hat to Obama’s presumptive rival, Senator Hillary Clinton. Since she first began hinting at a run for the presidency, experts and voters alike have been discussing whether she is capable of winning a national election–with mixed results, at best. “The test,” longtime Iowa Democratic pol Rob Tully explained recently, “will be whether she can beat the image problem– the perception out there [among Democrats] that she is not electable among the general electorate.”

You can understand why Democratic activists, funders, and voters are dwelling on such questions. They want to win the election — and, given everything that is at stake during a presidential election, there’s certainly nothing wrong with that. But will talking about electability actually lead the Democrats to nominate a candidate who is, in fact, electable? Recent experience suggests it may not.

That’s probably fair. In 2004, John Kerry was the most “electable,” and therefore won the nomination. Indeed, Ben Adler noted recently, “Polls among Iowa and New Hampshire primary and caucus voters showed a majority of those who voted for the candidate they actually liked voted for Edwards, while a majority of voters who voted for who they thought would win in the general election voted for Kerry. Meanwhile, Independents and Republicans heavily supported Edwards. Clearly the Dems were making a mistake at the time. Why did they think that their guess as to what swing voters would prefer was more trustworthy than what those voters actually did prefer?”

On the other hand, it’s fair to say electability isn’t entirely irrelevant, right? Republican primary voters may be tempted to nominate a fire-breathing lunatic, but think better of it because they’re considering the general election. The far-left flank of the Democratic base may find a very progressive candidate the most appealing, but shy away because they appreciate how difficult it would be for him or her to win in November. (Might this suggest a two-tiered electability question? Among the “credible” candidates, voters are better off putting electability questions aside?)

Or is all of this strategic thinking misplaced, ineffective, and reinforcing the notion that it’s more important to find the right candidate than the right president?

Discuss.

Frank Rich isn’t too nice to Hillary this Sunday but he has a point.

  • Searching for an “electable” candidate sounds like loser talk. We need someone to take charge, command respect and lead.

    The media pumped up George Bush (he can’t lead his own life) and treated him like a “regular guy” who wasn’t going to let those DC smart guys tell Joe Sixpack what to do. Yes, everything about that characterization is wrong, but that’s not the point. The media took its cues from Republicans and sad-sack DLC Democrats and determined that Democrats are losers that deserve our pity for even nominating a candidate. Screw that.

    The media narrative is being altered as we speak, but it will take a strong personality to hasten the change. Perceived weakness is a killer for presidential candidates. Look how much McCain has damaged his prospects in the past few months. Responding to smears in a kind and respectful fashion legitimizes the attack. The ’08 Democratic candidate needs to know how to fight. Kerry should is a prime example of how not to respond to smears.

  • So the #1 comment on a Sunday Discussion is a blogpimping one?

    I think everyone should vote for whom they personally prefer. That’s the only way to go. The pundits never know. The press never knows. No one knows anything about elections until after they happen.

  • We tried electability with Kerry and see where that got us. I haven’t figured out how to vote in primaries from here in Tokyo so I only got to vote in the final.

    But 2004 is a way different place than 2008. We need someone capable of cleaning up the mess in Iraq, the environment, healthcare, the growing gap between the haves and have nots and so on. Electability might be somewhat important, but could we please elect someone with the kind of leadership qualities who will get the country to come together and work on solving these problems? Someone who won’t suck up to big business for big bucks, but will actually work for the common citizen?

    I suppose that’s too much to ask.

  • Electability? Isn’t that somewhat like hiring the most photogenic individual to sit in an anonymous cubicle—and be a telemarketer?

    And as for Brownback, “the guy who has a better chance of getting hit by a meteor while being consumed by a blue whale being struck by lightening” misses the mark a bit. The boys at PinkState forgot about the chances of “being hit by a hijacked 747 that’s been comandeered by a quadraplegic Mccarthyist-Marxist transgendered evangelical Baptist nun named Sister Geraldo Rivera.” Now THAT adequately describes Brownback’s chances of winning a presidential contest.

  • Electability is a media conceit. The media tells the public X isn’t electible and the public tells the pollsters the same thing. We need candidates who will simply state “If you vote for me I am electable.”

  • But is “electability” really the trait voters should consider during the primary process? And for that matter, are voters any good at figuring who’s electable and who isn’t?

    Yes and yes.

  • That’s probably fair. In 2004, John Kerry was the most “electable,”

    A lot of the anxiety against him is misplaced. John Kerry probably wasn’t the best guy to notice the problems we had going in toward election day, but he wasn’t the cause of them, either.

  • The media, as has been stated repeated before, is focused on the horse race. I am looking for a president who is not a sycophant of big business, someone who looks at the big picture and isn’t angling from day one for reelection. As much as I like Edwards, this candidate is Al Gore.

  • #6 hits the nail on the head. “Electability” is soft ‘n fuzzy, easily digestible concept for those who refuse to conjure with the idea of leadership. That being said it’s also true that many people vote based on their perceptions of the candidate’s personality. The fact that candidates are being manipulated by campaign managers to in turn manipulate the perceptions of the voters is too much for most people to think about.

    It seems to me that when the discussion of who is best qualified to lead becomes too difficult for the chattering class to handle, falling back on the “electability” sophistry is their only recourse.

  • I never understood Kerry’s “electability”. To begin with, as far as I was concerned anyway, he typified the stereotype of a New England liberal, the brie-and-chablis Democrat. The campaign taught me more about him: his vacillation, his aloofness, his fear of fighting back (or even defending himself), his lame appeal to the NRA crowd (that photo of him holding a dead pheasant).

    By contrast, my candidate John Edwards — though a lawyer (which I was inclined to dislike) and a southerner (which I was more than inclined to dislike) and newly rich (which I nearly always dislike) — lived and breathed the traditional values of the Democratic Party. His “two Americas” theme was the most forceful statement since FDR, and long overdue, both in our party and in this country. LBJ had it, too, but it was quickly smothered by his obsession with Vietnam.

    For most of my lifetime I haven’t much liked our presidents and presidential candidates. John Kennedy was the last one I spent any time actually working very hard for. Well, that’s not quite true: there was Robert Kennedy. But the rest of them have seemed to me more interested in kissing the butts of rich donors and getting their “principles” from focus groups and rich campaign advisers than anything heartfelt. Both the Clintons personify, for me, the triangulating sell-outs which, like scum, have frequently risen to the top of our party during the last fifty years or so. Meanwhile, people whose principles do seem to arise from their guts (like Howard Dean or Russ Feingold, or even Dennis Kucinich or Al Sharpton) are summarily dumped by us as “unelectable”. Harry Truman wouldn’t have stood a snowball’s chance with us, nor frankly would FDR.

    I’m not impressed by someone whose main campaign so far is rests on the fact that she’s got the most money and is “in it to win”. Give me John Edwards telling and re-telling that story about sitting down with his parents in their kitchen and discussing whether they can afford to send him to college. Give that to me over and over again until his “two Americas” becomes again, after more than half a century, the driving force of the Democratic Party. The electorate is hungry for such a candidate, whether they (or the TeeVee pundits) know it now or not.

  • All of the “top and second tier” Dems are highly talented, capable and would be a vast improvement over what we have now. The democratic candidate who is forceful, has a clear progressive agenda that they are not afraid to speak clearly about and debate, who doesn’t quivocate, who leads, will win. Period. The nation is entirely ready for that person.

    The concern with Hillary (Senator Clinton) is not at all competence or talent, it’s the continuous political triangulation. She’s not shown herself to be a leader. The concern with Obama is not as severe, but it is the same.

    Kerry lost because he equivocated and he had a really lousy sense of timing.

    I will back any of these top dems, but would love to have Al Gore to vote for.

  • Electability is a media conceit.

    The idea that electibility should not be the first and foremost consideration is an idealistic, fantastic delusion.

    Having people in your party who promote that kind of thing is like being a kid whose parents don’t believe their job as parents is first and foremost to put food on the table.

    There’s an old trial lawyer saying that there are no unwinnable cases, just cases that are unwon. Kerry’s campaign is a perfect example of a political campaign that was winnable but unwon. If Kerry was going to win, all he would’ve had to do to get there was put that image of him created in that movie about him first and foremost in the public’s mind when they thought about him. Instead, that’s not the impression they got of him- to them he was the vague figure of an old man who never seemed to look directly at the camera.

    Kerry was a great candidate who could have been a great president had he been elected. Anybody who tells us we should not look to electibility and just look to the qualities of the candidate should check their opinion on Kerry and see if they argue that he was a bad candidate but at the same time feel that, despite their disappointment over his losing the race, he was well-credentialed to be president.

  • I’ll take all the Brownback you’re selling, so long as the odds are longer than 2 to 1. He’s a better bet than Giuliani, also unelectable, who nevertheless is leading in a mess of polls. It wouldn’t surprise me if they were the last two standing. (I don’t think McCain’s going to make it, physically. He’s looked dreadful on his last few television appearenes.

    If politics is show business, then you mustn’t ever forget the immortal words of screenwriter William Goldman about Hollywood: “Nobody knows anything”.

  • It is too far out from the election for me to seriously consider particular candidates, but I think mulling over the concept of the ideal candidate is an excellent idea.

    On Friday, Krugman wrote a column on the ugly state of American discourse and the call for bipartisanship. It was his contention that in the last century bipartisanship only came after FDR slew the GOP corporate dragon. The end of bipartisanship came when the Reagan/Goldwater wing of the GOP resurrected that dragon. If you can find a copy of the article it is well worth reading. Unfortunately, it is behind the TimeSelect firewall.

    With Krugman as my inspiration I think the Democrats need a pugilistic economic populist as their candidate.

  • Bush was the consummate “unelectable” candidate: an Eastern Yalie Cheerleader Fake Cowboy MBA Loser. But the image put out there (by the neocons, mostly), was precisely the opposite. The question for Dems is not, and has never been, “is this candidate electable”? The question is, “why do we keep asking this stupid question instead of picking a strong leader and fixing this damn country.”

    The Republicans picked a loser and made him a winner by simply getting behind the man. Dems have real winners to choose from, and they’ll pick them apart and believe the media hype right until the 49% comes in at the ballot box.

    Losing. Strategy.

  • There’s probably a middle course between being obsessed with whether a candidate is electable, and deciding on a damn-the-torpedoes, this-is-who-I-like-and-screw-everthing-else approach.

    Just for instance, I think the fact of the poll Charlie Cook cited in his e-mail update last week–that 46 PERCENT of the electorate simply will not support Hillary Clinton, despite all her qualifying (not to call it pandering), is something Democrats should keep in mind. That’s 14 points more than Edwards (who’s also really hated by right-wing types) and fully twice the percentage that would never support Obama.

    This is a particular problem when one considers the second element of electability for a presidential nominee: how will that candidate play further down the ballot? I don’t like the idea of Nancy Boyda, Heath Shuler, or the newly elected Democratic Reps in Indiana trying to win re-election while running away from Hillary Clinton, standard-bearer of the Democratic Party. It would be tough for us to lose Congress again in just two years, but if anything can do that, it would be putting forward Our Lady of Perpetual Triangulation.

  • As Davis X. Machina pointed out, the three rules of Hollywood – Nobody. Knows. Anything. – also certainly applies to this. Nobody can foretell the future, and most “experts” don’t pay attention to the right information (who was supporting Edwards in Iowa in 2004 for instance).

    I gotta agree with Frank Rich, after making the mistake of going to Hillary’s “town hall” on Wednesday.

    After six years of “Ask President Bush,” “Mission Accomplished” and stage sets plastered with “Plan for Victory,” Americans hunger for a presidency with some authenticity. Patently synthetic play-acting and carefully manicured sound bites like Mrs. Clinton’s look out of touch.

    I really really really do not want her as the candidate. She and her husband are risk-averse triangulating pissants, and typify the “yuppie scum” of my generation I’ve never been able to stand, but her inauthenticity isn’t it. A Constitutional Repulic doesn’t need four presidents over a consecutive 20 years that are named Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton.

    ABH (Anybody But Hillary) for President!

  • When right wingers are talking about Democrats, “electability” is code designed to shift the focus from Democratic party positions, platforms, and bases. In other words, what Democrats are most likely to ignore Democratic party positions to appeal to conservatives. You NEVER hear rigtht wingers talking about “electability” when it comes to Republicans, do you? Now consider the source for this “electability” hoo-haa – the Wall Street Journal. Do we really want them to get to define what we want in a President?

    Show me some good progressive and blue state sites that treat the “electability” issue as paramount above all others, and maybe we can have a discussion – otherwise it’s just the WSJ being the WSJ. Do you really think that the WSJ is going to treat anyone who calls for universal health care and is against Social Security privatization as “electable”? Of course not – and that’s why they’re going to talk about “electability” so they can shoot down all these Democratic ideas.

  • If a party wants its candidate elected, “electability” is a fundamental quality. (That’s what used to be decided in “smoke-filled” rooms.) Unfortunately, the Democrats couldn’t figure out that John Kerry was unelectable. He barely had a pulse and reeked of “liberal elitism.” He’s a genuine war hero, but he collapsed in the face of Republican slime.

    Al Gore should have been elected in a near landslide, but he brilliantly campaigned against his only asset — the success of the Clinton administration. Howard Dean was a “nobody,” and therefore “unelectable.” He could have won.

    If Hillary or Obama run in 2008, there goes another four years. I’d fully back Edwards and Clark (and maybe Richardson) if I were the Democrats. Each of them can deliver a strong, sincere — positive — message. Which means, of course, they’ll be ignored by the party.

    The problem the Democrats face is that they took the mid-terms and think it had something to do with them. They didn’t win. The Republicans lost. I don’t think the Dems can count on GOP suicide in 2008.

  • The problem with “electability” is that people don’t tend to judge that for themselves. I mean, we all presumably figure out who we “like” for ourselves. But “electability” became a buzz word attached to Kerry last year, so that many people, I think, didn’t bother to really examine who they liked but simply went with the guy they had been told “can win.”

    The people who shaped that message were wrong. From my own observation, I believe that the people who shaped that message were, in fact, largely Republican media people. They instituted a blackout on talk about Wesley Clark, even though he was running very well in the polls, for instance. They staged that Fox news debate where they gave Kerry several soft questions (one was of local concern to the people of Iowa, in fact) and gave Clark only gotcha questions about foreign policy — then drubbed him for only talking about foreign policy.

    So my conclusion is that it’s perfectly legitimate for us to consider electability, but we should try to steer Democrats away from letting that be their main criteria.

    So among my arguments for why people might consider voting for Wesley Clark, will be to note anecdotally the number of Republicans and Independents who seem drawn to him and who said they would have voted for him in 2004 if he’d been running. To add that he is bound to draw the military vote and that many Fox viewers have become familiar with him in his gig on Fox news. To continue that his brilliant strategic mind has already, I’ve heard, come up with a plan that doesn’t require Florida and Ohio — places with questionable election practices — to win the country. And to remind people that he is not a northeastern rich lawyer in the Senate.

    But they should mostly vote for him based on what he would do for the country in office. How he would restore our reputation abroad — he is the most widely respected candidate internationally — how he would fix Iraq — he definitely has the most know-how as a former 4-star general with an excellent record — and how he would perform domestically — in his 2004 run he was one of the most progressive, and his strong executive experience makes him more likely to get the things done that we want done.

  • Electability is the second option for most people – if there isn’t a candidate that they really like they will vote for someone they think will be the winner – just go to the track and watch, listen and compare. However electablity should be a major concern for the Democratic Party because at some point they will need to decide who they need to favor if they are to win in 2008.

    Clinton’s problem is really the women’s vote; there are many women who don’t like her and therefore wont support her, period. At some point women would like to see a female President, but they don’t want to put their trust in her. Plus for most men, she is short on leadership qualities.

    The country wants leadership. I was looking back watching some clips of “The Decider”, “The Decision-maker” and wondering the last time the current President boldly declared he did something because “I am The President of the United States of America”; he talks about the President as if it is someone else. The 2008 winnder will be the candiadate that can restore the dignity and respect that those words should command, both in this country and around the world. If not, Obama is handsome.

  • Here’s my ranking on “electability” (in order) from my gut:

    Al Gore
    Wesley Clark
    John Edwards
    Mitt Romney
    John McCain
    Barack Obama
    Hillary Clinton
    Rudy Guilliani

    The Others

    Again, this is from my gut. So it cannot be questioned by so-called reality.

  • Electability seems to mean picking a candidate that doesn’t scare anybody. A perfect blend of opaque, tasty, attractive and non threatening. Kind of like the fragrance of brewing coffee.

    But those are fleeting qualities. An appealing presentation has to be backed up with the ability to do the job. America isn’t buying a donut or a cup of coffee. This is a country that needs to eat it’s vegetables right now and I think it’s ready to do so. If voters are going to base their votes on who gives them the most sugar coated half truths and pablum in the prettiest or ritziest package then we’re still screwed even if that hollow candidate is elected and the country will get it’s just desserts.

    Shruby was a perfect Stepford candidate with his aw shucks facade and meaningless “compassionate conservatism”. He got close enough to being elected to pull off a facsimile of the truth but it’s obvious he never deserved to be anywhere close to any elected office beyond dog catcher.

    A real effort has to be made to match a substantial message with the skills to communicate that message. A passionate scream from someone who is buried up to his eyeballs in fighting the good fight shouldn’t be enough to scare away supporters who would otherwise stand behind what that candidate is saying.

    “With Krugman as my inspiration I think the Democrats need a pugilistic economic populist as their candidate.”

    Comment by rege

    “A Constitutional Republic doesn’t need four presidents over a consecutive 20 years that are named Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton.”

    Comment by Tom Cleaver

  • The thing is, I think it’s reasonable to not vote for Nader or Kucinich based on “electability.” But people who, for instance, really like Hillary the best and what she stands for, I think shouldn’t allow themselves to be persuaded not to vote for her merely on the grounds of some supposed nebulous “electability.” Electability seems to equal popularity, and popularity can come and go in an instant.

    Just research the people at their web sites, be wary of trolls but open to reasonable positive arguments that people propose on blogs, and vote as it suits you.

  • The concept of “electability” gave us Kerry for the Democrats and Bush for the Republicans. I can’t think of two better reasons to avoid this trap altogether. The bottom line is which candidate will take positions vague enough to offend the least number of voters. Whoever this turns out to be is thus annointed “electable”. Is it any wonder why major elections hinge on the few votes of so-called swing voters?

  • Electability is trying to win by not losing. It doesn’t work, further, the Dems have a track record of relative dark horses (Carter, Clinton) altering the conventional wisdom layed out by the press.

    This could be the election that blogs finally shoot down images that the media wants to portray candidates with and their attempts to demolish candidates a la Howard Dean with contrived controversies.

    I hope these candidates, as well as the Democratic Party, cranks up their war machines (and I do mean war) to keep media and right wing spitballs from turning into bullets that fatally wound their candidacies. Further, go on the warpath and get the other guys on the defensive for a change.

    Democrats should vote for the person that best represents their ideals and not what they think will be attractive enough to appeal to Republicans. Someone being genuine will be much more electable than some who looks like they are trying too hard to be electable. Just look at what it’s doing to John McCain.

  • I fully understand, by the way, that the way the “electibility” word is being used by the media latterly is to refer to Hillary as having a popularity problem. Long-time readers of the comments section of this blog will recall that I support Hillary and that I think the electibility meme, when used against her, is nothing more than a smear that’s made in defiance what the polls are telling us, just as the polls indicated Clinton was popular during the Monica Lewinsky scandal while the polls indicated otherwise.

    I think the real problem is Dem activists or staffers allowing the meme to sink in and not realizing that Hillary had great poll numbers until the media, basically unopposed, kept repeating how unpopular she was over and over- and then the numbers sank. It’s obvious that the Republicans are setting out to undermine the prospects of our candidates, of Hillary and Obama, at an early date, and we should be sticking up for them. Democratic campaign staffs really have to be doing the same thing- like spreading around that ridiculous quote Giuliani made the other day, etc.

    But if I had to choose who really has more in the way of a public opinion problem, I’d think it was Obama. To put it simply, people are less prejudiced against white women than they are against black men. At least historically this country has gone further to overcome sex discrimination earlier than it has to overcome race discrimination.

    Usually when I write something on this blog I have reasons for what I write- for reaching the conclusion I reach- but I don’t always write all of them mostly because I don’t have time. When I (much less frequently) write something more in the way of an opinion, I tend to assume that it will be evident that it’s just an opinion. The comment about Hillary’s electibility problem versus Obama’s is more in the way of an opinion, but I’m just making clear that I don’t mean to say by my prior comments that Clinton shouldn’t be considered as a candidate.

  • Electability is trying to win by not losing.

    Even people who criticize looking at electibility implicitly acknowledge its importance. Think about it. They tell us to stick to the candidate they would more like to see in office when that candidate is not as electible as the alternative. But they want their candidate to win, so they’re not pushing them unless they believe that- contrary to the indicators- the candidate is electible. They’re not pushing the candidate just for the hell of it. People who are telling us that electibility is not important just because they are more in favor of the less electible candidate are just overlooking that they are so fond of that candidate that they’re not able to see what the practical limitations are on what we can do at a given time.

  • By my last paragraph of my comment #32, all I mean is that I don’t have much reason for my guess that Obama will face more substantial harm to his campaign due to prejudice (beyond the (well-known) history I cited, which is wholly arguable as to whether it’s still valid today, as applied to this situation) and my opinion on this shouldn’t be taken as gospel truth. I don’t want to unduly dishearten Obama supporters or unintentionally cause any damage to his campaign, and I think the prejudice these two candidates face is even possibly evenly matched, for as far as it matters to their campaigns

  • You use “electability”as the primary factor in chosing the candidate and you end up with a piece of cardboard, which is unpalatable to everyone, however nutritious it might be sold as. Personally, I’m tired of voting for the lesser evil; I want someone who’d light a fire of hope.

  • But if I had to choose who really has more in the way of a public opinion problem, I’d think it was Obama. To put it simply, people are less prejudiced against white women than they are against black men. At least historically this country has gone further to overcome sex discrimination earlier than it has to overcome race discrimination.

    And if it were “random basically qualified white woman” versus “random basically qualified African-American man,” you’d have a point.

    But it’s not. People have made their minds up about Hillary Clinton; her name recognition is close to 100 percent. And about half the electorate simply will not vote for her–including, I think, millions of independents and moderate Republicans who would be open to supporting other Democrats.

    For all her money, and all her “name” advisors (most of whom are unprincipled imbeciles IMO), she’s not going to change most of those minds. There’s just too much history.

    Obama, by contrast, at least has a backstory that could plausibly garner him support from surprising corners. He doesn’t promise more of same; it will be harder, in part by virtue of his racial heritage, for the usual scat-throwers on the right to slime him. And he’s likable; he seems sincere. To millions of us, from every point on the political compass, she simply doesn’t.

  • People are confused when it comes to electability.
    If you really want to vote for someone vs. who you think is electable but, are not crazy about.
    Okay, if you make the 2nd choice and choose one who you think is electable but, are not crazy about, what makes you think the people in the general election will want to vote for that guy anymore than you???
    electability is about the heart. it’s who you are crazy about regardless of all the pundit talk because you have this instinct or feeling about the person.
    If you feel that way then, it is reasonable to think the main election will attract the mainstream as well you your real choice.
    To try to be all mind about it is really moot point as far as electing. People vote like you do. They go for the one they want and not one they are cool to but, “seems” better this or that and so, if percieved as being ‘electable’
    this thinking never got us very far, has it.
    We should vote for the one that excites us and makes us want to go out and vote for the person. In the general the mainstream will choose that one over the supposidly grown up choice.
    And Hillary is not electable because she is a woman but, because she is hillary….a totally unsuitable person due to her not making people want to vote for her as she leaves people cold.

  • God, they all come from the shallow end of the cesspool, both parties. The Dems drool over dismantling the war and increasing everyone’s taxes, the Republicans are in a self induced coma, and 08 has reared its ugle little nascent head like the squirming larvae you find when you overturn a rock in a dismal forest. No heroes, just zeroes.

  • vwcat, that’s just not true at all. A lot of people are excited by Hillary. She is likeable; electability has to do with who people are excited by. The idea that Hillary is not likeable is a made-up story. It’s made up by the 10% or so that don’t like her and want everyone else to not elect her just because they don’t like her for basically no reason.

  • Swan, I respect you quite a bit and always appreciate your posts, but I think in this instance you’re extrapolating from your own view. There’s simply no way that the percentage that dislikes Hillary is only “10% or so.”

    People have strong opinions about her, many of which are not positive. It’s nothing like scientific, obviously, but just as an example, check out the comments here:

    http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/electioncentral/2007/jan/28/hillary_grilled_by_iowa_voters

    If she can’t get support from Josh Marshall’s readership, or Carpetbagger’s crowd here–folks who are probably a more thoughtful, less herd-mentality breed of progressive than most at the really big sites–I don’t think there’s any community of Democrats she can count on as solidly in her corner. Far from being held back or run down by the press, I actually think her supposed viability is almost as much a media creation as it is on her merits, or her money.

  • Early on, I was impressed by Hillary. I liked her a lot. I don’t dislike her now, but I wouldn’t vote for her. I’m not sure when my change of mind occurred, but it was probably when she voted for the Iraq invasion. Or maybe as she’s continued to try to position herself as both for the war and against it. To me, there’s a lot of rhetoric from Hillary, but I sense much ambition and little sincerity.

    Some candidates want to be president to accomplish something. Some (most) just want to be president. I see Hillary as the latter.

  • I’m gonna do a Swan-drip, one thought per posting…

    Electability *does* count — I would not recommend that Dems field a blind paraplegic with a stutter and pox-scars as their candidate. But, given the current field of potential Dem runners, that’s not our problem. So the “electability factor” (the minimum number offended) should give way to “excitement factor” (the maximum number fired up)

    Re Hillary: I’ll vote her, of course, if she clears the primaries but it will be, *again*, on the basis of “the lesser evil” pinciple. No excitement, just resignation and the last flicker of hope for a better future. So I hope she doesn’t win the primaries, despite the name recognition and the piles of money at her disposal.

    Funnily enough, she’s very much aware of that dynamic (which I share with many other Dems); I read somewhere recently that she said she’s more worried about winning the primaries than the general

  • JUSTICE, and demands for JUSTICE, are the actual basis of ANY campaign in 2008.

    The marketers of presidents are wrong in their assessments, because THEY THEMSELVES fail to demand JUSTICE

    “The Inquisitors at Seville, without observing juridical prescriptions, have detained many persons in violation of justice, punishing them by severe tortures and imputing to them, without foundation, the crime of [terrorism], and despoiling of their wealth those sentenced to death…”

    –Pope Sixtus IV, early 1482.

  • Stupid comments about electability and likeability. You can do the two, you know. Did anybody ask to those who selected electability in a either/or poll ask the people whether they liked Kerry or not?

    By the same interpretation, I could say that many of those who choose Edwards did not think he was electable, which is absolutely stupid because you do not know.

    Sad day, and it makes me want to puke, to read comments like that aimed at kicking a good man in order to make a silly point.

  • I think it is funny, and telling, that while I was reading the paragraph excerpted from the Red State blog, I had considerable difficulty matching GOP candidates to the short descriptions.

    For example, I wasn’t sure whether “lecherous adulterer” was referring to Gingrich or Guiliani or McCain.

    Did “egomaniacal nut job” refer to Gingrich or McCain or someone else?

    Who was the “flip-flopping opportunist”? McCain? Romney? (I admit that as soon as I saw the words “perfect hair,” I realized it was Romney.)

    It was all quite confusing. I finally had to click on the links to figure out who the blogger was referring to.

  • As far as Hilary Clinton is concerned, she elicits strong opinions, either pro or con, based on the biases or prejudices of those being asked. The best approach to Ms. Clinton at this point is to be dispassionate. Chill out and listen to what she says. Don’t wait for her to say something you want to hear. If I hear nothing but ambition and triangulation and pandering, she doesn’t get my vote. If I hear a person of substance trying to be heard, then I’ll consider her candidacy more seriously. A mark of leadership is to engender honest support or resistance from the electorate and not the phony partisan support, the anybody-but-so-and-so support given to rank turds such as George W. Bush. I’ll wait to see how Hilary Clinton handles the opposition to her candidacy. If she attemtps to address her critics forthrightly and debate their positions from a position of strength based on progressive values, then she merits some attention.

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