Sunday Discussion Group

One of the pressing questions in the 2004 Democratic primaries was how best to deal with the 2002 votes of Sens. John Kerry and John Edwards on the Iraq war resolution. Would they acknowledge that the votes were a mistake? Would they apologize? Was this a litmus-test issue for voters? Should it be?

When it comes to the presumptive frontrunner in the 2008 field, the same questions seem to apply.

Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Rodham Clinton told New Hampshire voters Saturday that ending the war in Iraq is more important than whether she repudiates her 2002 vote authorizing President Bush to use military force there.

The New York senator and party front-runner repeatedly has faced calls for her to say her vote was a mistake. Democrats pressed her on it last weekend in New Hampshire and again on Saturday at a town hall meeting in the early voting state. […]

On Saturday, Clinton was asked by a University of New Hampshire professor why she refused to apologize for voting to give Bush the authority for the March 2003 invasion.

“I take responsibility for my vote. It was a sincere vote based on the facts and assurances we had at the time. Obviously I would not vote that way again if we knew then what we know now,” she said, her oft-repeated explanation.

She then added in a clear reference to her rivals: “I have to say, if the most important thing to any of you is choosing someone who did not cast that vote or said his vote was a mistake, then there are others to choose from. But for me, the most important thing now is trying to end this war.”

At this point, it’s one of the dominant campaign questions in Democratic circles, particularly within the DC political establishment. John Edwards has apologized for his ’02 vote and acknowledges he was wrong. Does Hillary Clinton have to do the same? And will it matter to anti-war voters if she does?

There’s no shortage of advice for the senator. NYT columnist David Brooks said calls for Hillary to apologize “are almost entirely bogus.” He added, “If she apologizes, she’ll forfeit her integrity. She will be apologizing for being herself.”

As Tom Schaller noted the other day, the Washington Post published four columns on this very subject in less than a week.

Following Clinton around New Hampshire, Ruth Marcus concludes that, “Democratic primary voters don’t want Kerryesque parsing. ‘Let the conversation begin,’ Clinton’s banners proclaim, but she’s not saying what many of them want to hear — words like ‘mistake’ and ‘sorry.'” Bob Novak adds, “What’s wrong with Clinton was demonstrated by the Feb. 4 performance on NBC’s ‘Meet the Press’ of a competitor, former senator John Edwards, who displayed the qualities she lacks. He took firm positions and admitted error, in contrast to Clinton’s careful parsing.” Admitting his own errors in supporting the war, Richard Cohen says he does not “condemn Clinton [and other Dems running for president]…for voting for the war because I would have done the same. I fault them, though, for passing the blame to Bush as the guy who misled them. They all had sufficient knowledge to question the administration’s arguments, and they did not do so. Not a single one of them, for instance, could possibly have believed the entirety of the administration’s case or not have suspected that the reasons for war were being hyped. If they felt otherwise, they have no business running for president.” (By that logic, of course, Cohen ought to consider giving up his column for a progressive voice that got it right from the jump; not holding my breath on that one.) Finally, our own Harold Meyerson puts Hillary’s position into historical perspective: “Today, Hillary Clinton seems almost uncannily positioned to become the Ed Muskie of 2008. She opposes the U.S. military presence in Iraq but not with the specificity, fervor or bona fides of her leading Democratic rivals.”

So, what do you think Clinton should do now? If she says the vote was a mistake and she was wrong to cast it, does she appear weak? Or is it a sign of weakness not do so?

And if Clinton did apologize now, would her Democratic critics be satisfied, or would they say it’s too little, too late? And if she never apologizes and/or remains reluctant to call her vote a mistake, will it seriously undermine her chances at winning the nomination?

Or is all of this moot? Are we at a point in which it just doesn’t matter how Clinton voted in 2002, and it matters far more what she’ll do in the future?

Discuss.

i can understand why hillary is having a problem here. there were many of us in 2002 who were opposed to the war resolution. we all knew, through both regular media and intenet media, that bush was lying his way into war and that the whole episode would be one big sorry mistake. we knew this from the information available to the general public – as senators and congressmen, they also had this information available. but shouldn’t they have had even more information available because of their position in this government?

if we knew it was a stupid thing to do, they definitely should have known it was a stupid thing to do. so to admit you made a mistake kinda says you were stupid back then. but to continue to dance around the issue like hillary is doing only makes her look arrogant.

anyone who voted for the resolution in 2002 is going to have trouble in this upcoming election. those who opposed it are going to have it a lot easier.

  • Her vote in 2002 reflected her beliefs at the time. Even if she believed the Bush administration’s con job, she lept at the chance to support an illegal invasion. We can judge her for that now.

    I don’t think she needs to apologize for something she believed in, but her beliefs are the reason I won’t support her presidential bid. She’s still the same person. We already how she votes and the policies she supports. She’s too far to the right (in the Republican sense, not conservatism) for me.

  • Hillary, why not try just the truth for once. I know you’ve got lots of money. I know you’ve got loads of connections all over the country. I know you’ve got the support of your husband, one of most effective campaigners in modern politics.

    Even if I didn’t have the feeling you’re lying/triangulating all the time, and even if your husband’s first act in office was to betray the solemn promise he made by caving on “Don’t As, Don’t Tell”, I couldn’t work up any enthusiasm for eight more years of Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton (a string of 28 unbroken years). But, considering those other factors above, you’re likely to win in this most likely Democratic year. Please make me feel better at least by pretending to tell the unvarnished truth. You might like it. It could catch on.

  • Edmund Burke: “You can never plan the future by the past.”

    Whether or not Hillary apologizes for the 2002 vote is immaterial. Either way she will be branded by the extremes of both parties as “triangulating”.

    She has other problems that have not yet come to the surface, including her vote for the bankruptcy bill bought and paid for by the credit card and banking interests. There are probably others that could prove detrimental to her.

    It will be an interesting campaign for the Dems. Maybe the “Top Tier” won’t be standng by August 2008.

  • “Maybe the Bush White House can’t conduct a war, but no one has ever impugned its ability to lie about its conduct of a war. Now even that well-earned reputation for flawless fictionalizing is coming undone. Watching the administration try to get its story straight about Iran’s role in Iraq last week was like watching third graders try to sidestep blame for misbehaving while the substitute teacher was on a bathroom break. The team that once sold the country smoking guns in the shape of mushroom clouds has completely lost its mojo.” – Frank Rich, “Oh What a Malleable War”

  • my problem with it is that she is showing a tendency towards arrogance and stubborness, and haven’t we all had ENOUGH of that for the last 6 years and counting? and that petulant crack about there being other alternatives… it’s pure bush bullshit. either obama or edwards would be perfectly acceptable alternatives to me. thanks for the suggestion, hill.

  • This is not, as some would suggest, an act of “triangulation.” This is someone who was misled—intentianally lied to by another person, if the issue is presented in its full illumination—and who believes that they should not have to apologize for that other individual’s lie.

    What the world is seeing with HRC is the end result of the feel-good, self-esteem-no-matter-the-cost mentality that has deemed it appropriate for the victim of a crime to share the responsibility of the perpetrator of that crime. If it becomes so-ooo important for HRC to apologize for the willful, malicious actions of this President and his administration regarding the authorization to invade Iraq, will it then become just as necessary, somewhere down the road, for her and others to “equally apologize” for the slipshod response to Katrina? For the myriad screw-ups at Energy, Agriculture, and Education? Will she be required to apologize for Dick Cheney? Karl Rove? Gonzo? The pending disaster of Afghanistan?

    No—it’s time for the buck to stop. It’s time to stop taking on a share of someone else’s responsibility. It’s time to stop blurring the focus on the criminal by pointing the finger at the victims—and expecting them to “cave….”

  • It’s a pointless waste of time. She voted based on the “facts” she had at the time, and did what she thought was the right thing. Why should she apologize for that? I also don’t think she blows her integrity if she does apologize, mainly because I don’t think anyone really cares. We can talk about what any given person should have done until we’re blue in the face, but it doesn’t do anyone any good. People need to focus on what’s going to be done in the future, not what should have been done in the past.

  • I’m sick of these conversations about what Senator Clinton should do to atone for her sins, and think she is doing exactly the right thing in advising us all to vote for another candidate.

    Hillary can’t see what was wrong about her position, and it lets us see what is wrong with Hillary.

  • As a not Hillary supporter I have to say this is a stupid controversy and the lib/left/dems are just pre-digesting her for the Repubs. Bob Somerby at The Daily Howler has been focused on this for a few weeks. Hillary has repeatedly said that if she knew then what she knows now she would not have voted for the war resolution. Give it a rest and move on. If you want to stump her, ask her how she will end the war, or how she will prevent it from happening again, or what powers that Bush has created for himself that she will explicitly reliquish. These demands for an apology are just the type of mindless media gamesmanship that distract from real issues and lower the level of discourse. Sheesh.

  • Maybe Hillary should apologize for being:

    1) Dumb as a box of hammers, and/or
    2) Criminally ignorant and/or
    3) A weathervane

    …in voting for this war. Even a marginal acquaintance with history (say, post-Tito Yugoslavia) would have enabled any halfway intelligent person to predict the precise lunacy into which Iraq has devolved due to our intervention.

    For God’s sake, HER HUSBAND WAS THE PRESIDENT. Think his information was so out of date in a single year that she didn’t know what the hell she was voting for?

  • I am still waiting for a candidate who is as minimally informed about what’s happening as a normal political blogger or blog reader. Just Bill has the right idea: he’s not the only one who knew the war was a scam–anyone who really followed what was going on knew. Why, then, are we consistently asked, even by our own people (read some posts above, for instance) to back unnecessarily and dangerously ignorant choices for important offices?

  • Hilary’s my senator, and I don’t want her for my senator, much less for president. She doesn’t have her own views; she changes her stances whenever she thinks it’ll gain her more political capital. I’d be so unhappy if she were to become president. I can think of several other women who’d make a much better first female president.

  • The vote was to give Bush leverage in what senators thought would be negotiations, not invasion. The Senators who voted did not expect Bush to sidestep inspections, set aside objections of other nations and precipitously invade Iraq. That is what Hillary didn’t know about and neither did those who claim to have objected in 2002.

    She refuses to apologize because she used her best judgment and made what she considered to be her best decision. That is all that can be expected of any candidate. Omniscience is not on the table.

    Because she is a female candidate, she must show strength in various ways because she will be assumed to be weak. Strength of resolve is as important for her as it was for Bush. She is saying that she will not be pushed around by hindsight when she did her best at the time. I respect that.

  • If Hillary voted her conscience with regard to Iraq she owes no one an apology. On the other hand, if she voted to give BushCo the authority to invade Iraq on the basis of political calculation, then she does owe everyone an apology. Implicitly then any apology which she offers can be read as an admission that her vote was a political calculation. This is a very interesting trap which has been laid for her, but I am not very concerned about hearing her answer one way or the other.

    My concern is that she voted for AUMF in Iraq on the basis of poor judgment.
    I think admitting to having made a mistake in voting for the AUMF in Iraq is a good first step for HRC and any other candidate for president in 2008 who supported BushCo. on Iraq, but it does not address the question of judgment. HRC’s explanation,”…Obviously I would not vote that way again if we knew then what we know now,” raises more questions than it answers. First off, what is it that she knows now that leads her to think her vote was wrong. Is it only BushCo’s incompetency with regard to the conduct of the war? Is it the fact that there were no WMD or connections to Al Qeda? She also said that her vote was based on “the facts and assurances we had at the time.” Again to which facts and assurances is she referring? Facts about WMD and Al Qeda connections? Assurances about the ease of occupation? For the electorate to made an informed decision with regard to the candidates who voted give BushCo the power to invade Iraq, we must know what they knew to be “true” when they cast their votes.

    One good indication of the poor judgment used by those who voted in favor of the AUMF is Senator Hagel’s recent revelation that BushCo sought authorization to use force anywhere in the Middle East, including Iran. That alone should have set off alarm bells. Hillary must also have known the pressure PNAC placed on Bill to go after Iraq. Should she not have been more skeptical, because of that?

    The bottomline is that I don’t want to hear empty admissions of mistakes. I want to hear full explanations of the way the bad decisions were made. Let the voters then decided if she has the good judgment which will be needed to solve the Iraq problem.

  • I’m tired of all these calls for politicians (or celebrities) to apologize for their votes, for their botched jokes or for their bigotry. Please admit a mistake was made and move on.

  • I recently read the 2002 AUMF, and I came away thinking it was a masterpiece of Bush/Republican salesmanship, interlacing known truths with speculation in a way that questionable assertions appear to be true. Without deconstructing the 23 “whereas” clauses written in this manner, it was almost impossible to argue against the resolution based upon what it actually said. And because most of the speculative elements were a matter of opinion, arguing that these assertions were wrong would have been difficult if not impossible. The climate at the time was supercharged with fear and nationalism — whipped to near-frenzy through a purposeful campaign by the administration. Few were willing to say the president’s assertions were incorrect; if his assessments were correct and Congress did not pass the resolution, the consequences would be disastrous. Or so he claimed. And he had already set the terms of debate.

    All that aside, one of the most flawed aspects of the resolution is that it called on the president to pursue diplomatic and non-violent efforts before using military force, but it relied on his judgement as to when those efforts were no longer viable. In times of perceived crisis — again, a perception Bush constructed — Americans tend to trust their presidents. If you think about it, they really have no other choice. If the president can’t come through in a crisis, we are doomed — a prospect Americans are loathe to consider.

    I also read Clinton’s floor speech on October 10, 2002, regarding the resolution. It is apparent she does not buy into all the president’s claims or conclusions.

    “Even though the resolution before the Senate is not as strong as I would like in requiring the diplomatic route first and placing highest priority on a simple, clear requirement for unlimited inspections, I will take the President at his word that he will try hard to pass a UN resolution and will seek to avoid war, if at all possible.

    “Because bipartisan support for this resolution makes success in the United Nations more likely, and therefore, war less likely, and because a good faith effort by the United States, even if it fails, will bring more allies and legitimacy to our cause, I have concluded, after careful and serious consideration, that a vote for the resolution best serves the security of our nation. If we were to defeat this resolution or pass it with only a few Democrats, I am concerned that those who want to pretend this problem will go way with delay will oppose any UN resolution calling for unrestricted inspections.

    “This is a very difficult vote. This is probably the hardest decision I have ever had to make — any vote that may lead to war should be hard — but I cast it with conviction.”

    “… I want this President, or any future President, to be in the strongest possible position to lead our country in the United Nations or in war. Secondly, I want to insure that Saddam Hussein makes no mistake about our national unity and for our support for the President’s efforts to wage America’s war against terrorists and weapons of mass destruction. And thirdly, I want the men and women in our Armed Forces to know that if they should be called upon to act against Iraq, our country will stand resolutely behind them.

    “My vote is not, however, a vote for any new doctrine of pre-emption, or for uni-lateralism, or for the arrogance of American power or purpose — all of which carry grave dangers for our nation, for the rule of international law and for the peace and security of people throughout the world.

    “Over eleven years have passed since the UN called on Saddam Hussein to rid himself of weapons of mass destruction as a condition of returning to the world community. Time and time again he has frustrated and denied these conditions. This matter cannot be left hanging forever with consequences we would all live to regret. War can yet be avoided, but our responsibility to global security and to the integrity of United Nations resolutions protecting it cannot. I urge the President to spare no effort to secure a clear, unambiguous demand by the United Nations for unlimited inspections.

    “And finally, on another personal note, I come to this decision from the perspective of a Senator from New York who has seen all too closely the consequences of last year’s terrible attacks on our nation. In balancing the risks of action versus inaction, I think New Yorkers who have gone through the fires of hell may be more attuned to the risk of not acting. I know that I am.

    “So it is with conviction that I support this resolution as being in the best interests of our nation. A vote for it is not a vote to rush to war; it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our President and we say to him – use these powers wisely and as a last resort. And it is a vote that says clearly to Saddam Hussein – this is your last chance – disarm or be disarmed.”

    What I hear from that is a Senator who is either (1) afraid to say Bush is wrong and risk the tragic consequences should he be proven correct, or (2) has reluctantly concluded she has no choice but to trust the President. I do not hear a Senator who is “voting for the war.”

    Personally, I didn’t believe the hype that Bush brought to the situation in Iraq or the so-called “war on terror.” I thought he’d gone off the deep end, overcome by his own fear and an adolescent sense of machismo. I didn’t trust Bush to pursue diplomatic solutions, and I didn’t believe the situation warranted near-term military action — even if the intelligence was correct. I thought he had no idea of the can of worms he was opening, and that it was a distraction from dismantling terrorist networks that posed the more immediate threats. I think Hillary Clinton is a fine Senator but hope she does not win the Democratic nomination.

    That said, I see no reason why Clinton cannot say, ‘I believe that in times of crisis, we must stand united as a nation; however, I regret that I believed the pre-war claims and assessments of George Bush. I regret that I trusted him to pursue diplomatic channels before invading, and I regret that I did not imagine a war could be prosecuted with such incompetence.”

    But to evade the issue as she has done, and challenge voters to look elsewhere if they expect her not to continue evading, is exactly why I don’t want her running for President.

    Should the 2002 AUMF vote even be an issue? Yes. Many of us were jumping up and down, infuriated by the failure of the “loyal opposition” to speak out against a misguided President and his misguided policies when the stakes were so high. I understand that it was a difficult decision. We deserve to know why they voted as they did, and what they think about it now, in unvarnished terms.

    (Sorry this was so long, but I think it’s worth reading Clinton in her own words.. )

  • Martin: “As a not Hillary supporter I have to say this is a stupid controversy and the lib/left/dems are just pre-digesting her for the Repubs.”

    Yep, let us just help the right wing machine all we can by helping them frame Hillary like this. Give me a break. As Martin said, The Daily Howler has been nailing this topic for weeks.

    She’s not perfect, but she’s not remotely stupid, and she’s not remotely incompetent. I would give anything to have her as President right now, or any of the other top or 2nd tier Democratic candidates. I will work with all I have to help the eventual nominee get elected, and I hope the hostile commenters above will be able to put aside their disappointment and do the same. Don’t pull a Nader. She is NOT the same as the reThuglicans, and she would be a competent President who would respect the Constitution.

  • I have heard other Congresspeople saying their vote for the AUMF was intended purely to give Bush a bargaining chip that the US now meant business, sort of sabre-rattling on steroids. The comments further say that they never thought Bush would use it as an excuse to rush blindly into a poorly thought out war.

    But it was painfully obvious from the start that Bush wanted a war with Iraq and nothing but bombs and bullets would whet his appetite. I can’t go along with that line that they were duped into voting for the AUMF believing in Bush’s pure intentions. Face it, anyone who voted for the AUMF was either gung-ho to bomb Baghdad or was cowed into voting for it based on the national mood to kick some ass, anybody’s ass.

    To apologize for the vote is to admit you had a moment of weakness. I’d rather vote for someone who will learn from their mistakes than to use some mind-bending logic to make it look like they were always right. And Hillary, with her experience in the White House and the good counsel of her husband, should have known better and seen what was going on that all who opposed the war saw with 20/20 vision.

  • I think the most important thing HIllary has said about the war vote is, “I did not vote for pre-emptive war.” As I recall from back then, 9/11 was still raw, it was “common knowldege” that Saddam was hiding big time weapons from the “inept” inspectors, Saddam was bluffing like a poker player about his weapons and Bush was pumping up the fear factor. I personally thought that Bush was bluffing with his war talk in order to get conessions from Saddam which was the way thing were usually done. Nobody recognized the full evilness of Bush at that point. So while I wish that Hillary had not voted for the authorization of force, she did, like most of the Democratic congress. All these calls for specific kinds of mea culpa are just destructive to the party as far as I’m concerned. And I don’t think out-spoken avidly anti-war candidates ever win the presidency.

    I would just like to say to Hillary, Obama, Edwards, Vilsak, Thank You! Thank you for investing and risking your time and money in trying to win the presidency for the Democrats. Whatever your personal reasons for doing so, you are performing a great service very few people are willing to perform. We need one of you to win. You are all good people.

  • I am a lifelong democrat who was anti-Iraq war from the start. That said, I neither need nor want Senator Clinton to apologize.

    We hear daily from the mainstream media that she cannot win, and that her Iraq position is hurting her campaign. Not only is this conventional wisdom contradicted by all of the polls (USA/Gallop National, American Research Group, Harris Interactive, Fox/Opinion Dynamics, Rasmussen, UNH Statewide, Quinnipiac NY, Zogby), but the fact remains that her lead is increasing over her opponents.

    Bob Shrum and other “strategists” readily opine about the “troubles” vexing Senator Clinton’s campaign. Considering her numbers, and Shrum’s renown for being behind every losing Democratic presidential campaign since the early eighties, she would do well to keep to her “troubles” and skip everyone else’s advice.

  • “..we all knew, through both regular media and intenet media, that bush was lying his way into war and that the whole episode would be one big sorry mistake. we knew this from the information available to the general public..” — just bill #1.

    I wasn’t paying a lot of attention at that time, so I can’t emphatically question just bill’s assertion. My impression post hoc, however, is that we didn’t know with such certainty that the so-called intelligence we were being fed as justification for invading Iraq was based on lies, distortions and fabrications. We certainly know that now (q.v. Conyers Report).

    Maybe it was naive of a senator with HRC’s knowledge and experience to buy the Bush hype so credulously. I think that is a fair criticism. Could she apologise for trusting a rogue and a rascal, without losing credibility? Hard to say. She may want to, but the risk is that she has no control of how it would be spun, which, of course, is the chronic defect of an unfettered press freedom that allows willful misrepresentation to go unchecked.

    If you study her actual response to this question, she repeatedly expresses a valid and acceptable view, namely, that she “.. would not vote that way again if we knew then what we know now.. “. What exactly is wrong with such an explanation? The trouble is that it gets drowned and lost in the noise. But that’s just politics, I guess.

  • Saying, “I was wrong,” could be an easy cop out. Wrong about what? Wrong due to being uniformed? Wrong to trust Bush? Wrong to make a political judgement that it was Bush’s war, and giving Bush enough authority-rope with which to hang himself?

    My days on Capital Hill suggest that these people leading our Nation ARE uninformed. Yes, it’s frightening. Pile on top of that excessive ambition, and fear of the mass media.

    That leads to another litmus test. Honesty on the situation in Israel. Few want to address this… OK Jimmy Carter does. I thought better of Edwards until I saw his speech delivered to a conference in Herzliya, Israel.
    ~

  • I don’t care what she says one way or the other. I’m not voting for her in any case, any way. I’m tired of having Presidents named Bush and Clinton for the past 20 years. We need to get away from this government-by-political-aristocracy if we’re to have any hope whatsoever of restoring the Republic. Let her follow Ted Kennedy’s example in the Senate and actually become useful.

  • Focusing on the specifics of the AUMF misses the forest for the trees. In the end, the resolution was a question of character – Bush’s character. It was a question of investing this man with an enormous and terrible amount of power, giving him permission to use unspecified force on our behalf.

    We elect presidents for one thing, which is to make decisions. The most important ones are those concerning war and peace. Our prosperity and even our survival depend on their making the right ones.

    When Hillary Clinton faced the vote on the AUMF, she was making the most important and significant decision of her career thus far.

    She blew it. She voted wrong.

    Hillary, being tested on the most important, most presidential-in-scope decision she’d yet made, chose wrong.

    We don’t elect presidents to make wrong decisions (at least, I sure don’t). They need to have the judgment to know how to evaluate these kinds of decisions, and to be right about them.

    Would Hillary Clinton be a better president than Bush, or any of his likely GOP successors? Sure, though that’s a pretty low bar. Could she be a good president? Maybe. But the first time she had to make a presidential-level decision, she botched it.

    Oh, and on top of that, she took forever to get around to admitting that she was wrong, defending the war, supporting Lieberman, etc. She took so long, in fact, that by the time she got around to it, any repudiation of her earlier mistake just sounds political.

    Not an auspicious start for someone who aspires to lead us in this fight.

  • Then quote below is what I wanted to hear from my Senators.
    Our Democratic political establishment failed us then,
    and I am still unconvinced they have moral courage to be great leaders. What was clear to Byrd should have been clear to Hillary.
    **************************************************
    Remarks of Senator Byrd on February 12, 2003…
    ***************************************************
    To contemplate war is to think about the most horrible of human experiences. On this February day, as this nation stands at the brink of battle, every American on some level must be contemplating the horrors of war.

    Yet, this Chamber is, for the most part, silent — ominously, dreadfully silent. There is no debate, no discussion, no attempt to lay out for the nation the pros and cons of this particular war. There is nothing.

    We stand passively mute in the United States Senate, paralyzed by our own uncertainty, seemingly stunned by the sheer turmoil of events. Only on the editorial pages of our newspapers is there much substantive discussion of the prudence or imprudence of engaging in this particular war.

    And this is no small conflagration we contemplate. This is no simple attempt to defang a villain. No. This coming battle, if it materializes, represents a turning point in U.S. foreign policy and possibly a turning point in the recent history of the world.

  • The entire Congress, with few exceptions, committed an unpardonable sin by knowingly abetting Bush’s determination to invade. Apologies make no difference. No one was “fooled.”

    Practically speaking, however, if you support Hillary, you’ll excuse her without comment. If you don’t, you’ll hold it against her. Same goes for Edwards and the rest.

  • Too damn much black and white thinking above. That’s what Bush does, that’s what thereThugs want. It is not what I expect from the CB crowd. You know, the one’s who think beyond their brain stem.

    We are all angry that so many Senators voted for the AUMF when so many of us saw clearly what was happening. We are all frustrated that they were not all as clear in their positions and thinking as my Senator Byrd or Wisconsin’s Senator Feingold.

    But “unpardonable sin”. “I’m not voting for her in any case, any way.”

    Give me a break. That kind of thinking only helps the reThugs. “They’re all the same so I’ll vote for Nader” got us Bush. They are not all the same.

    Dale has it just right: “I would just like to say to Hillary, Obama, Edwards, Vilsak, Thank You! Thank you for investing and risking your time and money in trying to win the presidency for the Democrats. Whatever your personal reasons for doing so, you are performing a great service very few people are willing to perform. We need one of you to win. You are all good people. “

  • I’m not a big Hillary fan, but this ‘controversy’ is ridiculous. Sure, many of us suspected KingGeorgetheDeciderer was the most dishonest, walking bag of puss to ever set foot in the oval office. But as of that time, he had not yet proven it to the public at large. She dealt with the information at her disposal, rather than the suspicions that Bush was actually as awful as his harshest critics suggested. Since then, Bush has far surpassed the most inflammatory things said about him at that time.

    The AUMF was not a vote to go to war – it was a bit of sabre rattling. It was based on information that has since proven to have been manipulated – if not outright fabricated. I’m not going to blame Hillary’s vote, or anyone else’s, for Bush/Cheney’s war. Let’s keep the blame for Iraq where it belongs.

    Now having said all of that, Hillary was in a very strong position to hold this regime accountable. I won’t say she utterly failed. But I do think it’s fair to say her efforts were underwhelming. As such, she’s a disappointment. I’ll support her if she wins the nomination, but just about everyone else is ahead of her until then.

  • I can’t believe it’s even an issue. What difference does it make? She had admitted she felt like she was duped like many in the Senate and would have voted differently. But had Bush/Cheney been telling the truth and they found huge caches of WMD then should would have voted correctly right? She has said early in 2003 and 2004 that Bush activities needed oversight that she had hoped He would exhaust all other approaches and war should be a last resort. She , like many of us, trusted the president. That he would not abuse the power being granted him by the Senate vote, that he would act responsibly. Bill Clinton would have, so how would she have known Bush would jump to war rather than exhausting other possibilities? Still, she felt the president should have that power, she just regrets what he did with it.

  • I’ll support her if she wins the nomination, but just about everyone else is ahead of her until then.

    Same here.

  • Thanks to Beep52 #11, but what I read was typical political hedging. She knew that if she voted against the war and it was a success, she would never get to be President as she would be perceived to be weak. So she voted for it – sort of.

    What disappoints me now about her stance is that it’s still more of the same, which might be an acceptable way for the Senate but isn’t what I want to see from a future President. I want to see her take this on, push back, see how she and her team perform, whether or not this topic is moot, and then I will have a level of comfort that when the next Saddam comes around, we’ll have a President that hold their own in the international political arena. If she can’t do this, then my perception of her is she is weak, because she can’t even handle a war of words.

  • Martin @9 “Hillary has repeatedly said that if she knew then what she knows now she would not have voted for the war resolution. Give it a rest and move on…..These demands for an apology are just the type of mindless media gamesmanship that distract from real issues and lower the level of discourse.”

    Well said. The media, being led around by their collective noses by the GOP, is trying to act like the big brother who twists his little brother’s arm until he says sorry. Of course, if Hillary were to apologize, she would never hear the end of that. She realizes that and, unlike Kerry, she’s chosen to take a position and stick with it.

    If it were Kerry, he would have apologized, un-apologized, apologized to anyone who might have been offended by his failure to apologize, or his apology, or his un-apologizing…

    Hillary’s position does leave unanswered the question of why she could so easily be led astray by Bush, et al., which I think is why she’s leaving the “pre-war intelligence” fight to others. But overall, this is just the media’s issue du jour.

    It always seems odd to me that the Dems get asked if they’re sorry about voting for the war. Why isn’t Bush asked if he’s sorry for lying to everyone. I think he needs to get a lot more “when did you stop beating your wife” type questions about this war.

  • If you’ve enjoyed the zero-sum feces-throwing politics of the last 20 years, Hillary’s your candidate. If you’d like to move past this destructive trivia and take action against the real problems of the country and the world, support someone else–I recommend Obama, as he seems the most likely one to successfully prevail against her when the race gets to Hillary vs. Not-Hillary.

    What’s specifically upsetting about her Iraq vote is that, put in that situation again, she’d vote for the war again–her lies to the contrary. The reason why has nothing to do with the specifics of the case, and everything to do with the view of the Clintons, and the entire wing of the Democratic Party they lead, toward executive power and the use of force.

    Having never been in harm’s way themselves, and having come of age politically in a period when Democrats were successfully portrayed as “weak,” they are terrified of living into that stereotype. With no personal experience of war–hell, probably few if any close friends who were ever in combat–to balance against that political calculation, it’s all theoretical to them anyway.

    It has become far too easy for people in Washington to send Americans in uniform to kill and die for nebulous reasons. It’s no coincidence that many of those who have been most skeptical about the Iraq debacle from the outset were individuals who themselves had served. For the Clintons, the Bushes and everyone else who constructs “patriotism” as the whole of symbolic parts–a flag pin in a suit lapel–there’s nothing at stake beyond the next news cycle and some credit for “political bravery” from assheads like David Broder and David Brooks.

  • the left has an unfortunate tendency to let the perfect be the enemy of the good, and to expect a sort of apolitical purity. i don’t know that I will support HRC, but if we exclude every Dem who voted or spoke out the wrong way on the war before it began, we’d exclude a lot of very good candidates and very good leaders. and our mistake would be divorcing the vote from the real world context. yes, a great many in the progressive blog community who were paying attention knew that Bush was screwing everyone over with the AUMF. but when that vote was taken, Bush was polling in the stratosphere, as was the idea of being strong with Iraq. Bush and the Rethugs had a huge rhetorical advantage because most of the country still was in 9-11 mode, disdaining partisanship. Elections have consequences: the Rethugs held the cards, and at some point you have to let the person who is holding the office of President govern — to do otherwise is to insult the electorate (something I think we will see in the other direction as Rethugs in the Senate who voted contrary to the November results have to face voters and defend blocking debate on the Iraq Surge). It is easy (and positive) for all of us here to aggressively take on the Pres, no matter what his poll numbers are on a given day. Expecting people who, unlike us, face democratic elections to do the same is silly and puts purity over pragmatism to such a degree that, taken very far, would ensure we were permanently in the minority. The only people that result helps is the Rethugs and their greedy friends. Give HRC — and the scores of other, otherwise qualified possible leaders among the D’s — a break.

  • Great comments. It’s all already been said in a fashion above: Senator Byrd and others who spoke up had no higher political aspirations. Clinton and Edwards and Kerry did not lack information, they lacked political courage. That said, if the Bush presidency has proven anything, it has proven that Ralph Nader was wrong, hugely wrong–the differences between the Democrats and Republicans while seemingly slight have monumental consequences. Therefore we should stop eating our own and continue to point that out, as argued by #7 above. It should also be said that the “mistake” in voting for the resolution is nothing as compared to the “mistakes” made every day by the current administration.

  • Hilary lost many potential votes with her comments yesterday, including mine. Must be nice to be so confident that you can afford to blow off your base. I’m with Kos on this one.

  • She can say she was misled all she wants, that does not excuse her vote. If a criminal doesn’t know what they are doing is a crime, they’re still guilty. Same goes for Hillary.

  • I suspect that with voters who believed that the vote was wrong at the time, Hillary forfeits being a viable candidate by all her pro-war activity from then until very recently… and so it doesn’t matter a bit how much she retreats from it now. I count myself in those voters, as far as who to support in the primary season. And it would diminish my enthusiasm, should she become the D candidate.

    The question is, how does this play with a large segment of the population who believed the war was a good idea at the time of the invasion, but have turned against it by now. I think it’s going to be hard to make the case within the active Democrat community that she couldn’t have known better at the time.

    To me, by refusing to back down or admit mistakes, she risks unfavorable comparisons to Bush. Another President who confuses “integrity” with “never admit you were wrong” is the last thing this country needs.

  • On Sunday night, Sean Hannity will unveil his latest smear campaign against Al Gore. Hoping to portray the Oscar and Nobel-nominated Gore as a “Gulfstream Liberal,” the Hannity’s America hit segment will try to paint the former Vice President as a private jet flying, carbon-burning, global warming machine.

    And Hannity should know. After all, when it comes to hypocrisy over extravagant travel on private aircraft, Sean Hannity is the master of hot air.

    For the details, see:
    “The Plane Truth: Private Jet-Setter Hannity Attacks Gore.”

  • Hillary needs to do some reflection and soul searching on her vote on the AUMF in the Fall of 2002. Having been peppered by the public about her vote, she needs to explain–at some point–what was in her mind then and what is in her mind now. If there been an evolution of thought, it has to be real. And there is nothing wrong with a change of mind–even if it moves at the speed of a glacier.

  • Anyone who thinks Hillary is dumb, or that she can’t win, hasn’t been paying attention.

    I don’t give a hoot whether or not she says her vote was a mistake. What I care about is who has the ovaries to get us out of this mess! And I’m not just talking about the war, although it is the main cause for a lot of our other problems.

    In the past 26 years only one president has not only reduced our national debt, but left us with a surplus, and that presidents last name was Clinton. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I did okay during the Clinton years, and I’d like to have a strong economy once again!

    Obama is still very much an unknown for me, and Edwards lost my support with his one-two punch of saying he could not support marriage equality, and letting two feminist bloggers he hired twist in the wind for a week because he was too afraid to tell religious right shrills where to go.

    Right now Hillary has my vote … unless I find out between now and primary day that she’s been poisoning puppies.

    BAC

  • She’s now in a “damned if you do and damned if you don’t” position regarding that vote, so it’s pointless to spend time discussing whether she was, at that time, stupid/naive or canny/triangulating.

    Do I want her as my President? No. Will I vote for her if she gets the Dem nomination? Yes. The Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton sequence might be boring and tiresome and all sorts of other things but what’s the alternative? Bush-Clinton-Bush-Giulliani? Spare me.

  • But “unpardonable sin”. “I’m not voting for her in any case, any way.”

    Give me a break. That kind of thinking only helps the reThugs. “They’re all the same so I’ll vote for Nader” got us Bush. They are not all the same.

    — wvng

    I’m not sure I understand. Who said the candidates are all the same? I said that voters tend to overlook flaws in their favorite candidates and criticise flaws in candidates they don’t like. You may call that “black & white” thinking, and maybe it is. But it seems to me like it’s been going on for, oh, several centuries, and there’s nothing particularly wrong with it.

    I fail to see how a Democrat having a favorite candidate among a group of Democratic contenders helps the Republicans. It’s why we have primaries. That’s how we have democracy. I’m pleased they’re all devoting time and effort to run, but only ONE gets to win.

    Regarding the “unpardonable sin” of abetting Bush’s invasion of Iraq, in my opinion that was the most immoral and spineless cave-in I’ve ever seen. They gave in to Bush because he was very popular at that time, and for some reason they thought political cowardice would win them future votes. The result has been about as black and white as it could be. If they had any guts, they’d impeach the most impeachable president in our history.

    I don’t excuse a damn one of them for it, but we have to move on. And there’s no way I’d ever vote for Nader or any other divisive halfwit.

  • How easy is it to say, “that ending the war in Iraq is more important than whether [I]she repudiates her 2002 vote authorizing”. Says you, Hillary. You were all guilty of giving in to the emotional situation with which you were faced. The courage to say, “wait, lets practice some due dilligence”, was lacking across the board. You were as scared and as clueless as the rest after 9/11. The revelation of the true nature of our leadership on both sides was the greatest tragedy of 9/11, in my opinion.

    We have no leaders, only timid opportunists. The American electorate will spend the next few generations paying for their unwillingness to pay attention.

    When Democrats are elected in 2008, we will have an even greater reality to face, neither side has the ability to lead America through this coming shift in world powers.

  • Is it possible that the party is looking for some reason not to nominate a women (who conventional wisdom says can’t win)? If the next target is a similar sort of comment or action by Obama, I think we will have our answer. Then all that will be left will be the white males (which is what everyone is comfortable with anyway).
    Just a thought….

  • It seems to me we go through this every Democratic Party presidential cycle…an establishment candidate can not pass the litmus tests that the left wing has devised – remember Al Gore and Bill Bradley in 2000???

    Having said that, I just don’t get it vis-a-vis the Hillary-bashing and her vote on AUMF…is it a surprise to anyone that after 15 years Hillary and Bill choose to be neither behind nor ahead of the curve, and indeed are the essence of pragmatism and accommodation??? – such pragmatism goes doubly for the Iraq quagmire.

    And, frankly, I wouldn’t be surprised if the left is setting itself up for a “Sister Souljah” moment that will further endear Hillary to the mainstream…

  • All she had to do in ’02 was ask a physicist, preferably, one with expertise in nuclear engineering, whether it would be possible to build an enriched uranium or a plutonium bomb secretly while under the surveillance of our satellites and the IAEA. She would have learned the answer was no. She obviously didn’t ask and made a political decisioin instead. This history pretty much disqualifies her in itself. She’s again making similar political decisions, this time by “keeping her options open” on Iran. Both her judgement and decision-making procedure tells me she’s too risky a choice.

  • I’m ashamed of myself for not immediately taking seriously John Aravosis’ outrage over what Priest and Hull uncovered about Walter Reed in the Washingtoin Post.

    Luckily, we all have the chance to make amends and I took my opportunity to do so. This Walter Reed scandal, and it is a scandal, has made me sick at heart. I couldn’t believe what I was reading in those five pages.

  • jurassicpork is right. If you haven’t read about the disgrace at Walter Reed Army Hospital, I urge you to read Part 2 of the Washington Post series at:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/18/AR2007021801335.html

    It shows exactly how much “support” the troops are getting.

    Changing the subject, I found that Sen. Harry Reid told Wolf Blitzer today that the invasion of Iraq was the greatest foreign policy bungle in American history. Finally! That’s telling ’em!

  • In the fall of 2002, good intelligence on what was happening in Iraq was hard to come by; it had been years since the UN Weapons Inspectors had been permitted in Iraq. And the first anniversary of 9/11 had just passed.

    In that environment, I find it hard to blame anyone for voting for the AUMF. That vote helped persuade the UN to pass 1441, which got the weapons inspectors back in Iraq. That vote helped convince Saddam to cooperate with the inspections. Had Bush acted in good faith, his momentum toward war would have been lost in the face of Saddam’s cooperation with the inspections and the fact that the inspectors did not find WMDs.

    The Bush presidency had not yet unfolded in the fall of 2002. We did not yet know the extent of his mendacity.

  • Yes, whether or not HRC admits she made a mistake is far less important that all the lies of Bush and his administration, and yes, the political pundits should be paying more attention to those lies that they are HRC’s defense of her vote. And I agree that there is perhaps something of a double standard in criticizing her AUMF vote more than that of others, like Edwards.

    But I find her “We were mislead!” justification of her vote very contrary to her “I have taken responsibility for my vote” statements. HRC is smart and I don’t believe for moment she was unaware that Bush was hellbent on rushing us into war with Iraq and that its posturing about evidence of WMD in Iraq and connections of the Iraqi regime to Al Qaida terrorism was not to be trusted. Even if she didn’t recognize the Adminstration’s lies (as so many of us with only casual knowledge of the situation did), she, Edwards and all the other Senators who voted for war authorization should have undertaken some responsibility to examine evidence, examine claims of the Administration and think out the implications of the course of action Bush was asking them to undertake, as I remember Senator Byrd pleaded that they do.

    And as a New York native working 3 blocks from the WTC, I was particularly disturbed that after 9/11 Bush quickly became far more concerned with Iraq that with the groups and leaders that actually attacked this country. And I was particularly angry at both of NY’s Senators, Clinton and Schumer, to uncritically support this shift in priorities.

    While I don’t like HRC or many of the other Democratic candidates right now, I’ll certainly actively support whomever wins the nomination as I suspect most other readers will. But I resent the notion that we therefore should refrain from criticizing Clinton or any other candidate, and that we should support only those who we believe are “electable.” That stategy didn’t work out well two years ago.

    For the candidate of my party, I’d like someone who can articulate differences with the Republican agenda as clearly, directly and honestly as possible, without parsed language and triangulation. And I’d like the President of this country also to have those qualities, and a willingness to use his or her intelligence less for political calculation and more for crafting a progressive agenda. I would also like a President who is able to think critically about his or her own ideas, statements, policies and actions, and at times to admit mistakes. In this regard, HRC seems almost as incapable as Bush.

  • It was plain as day back in 2002 that they were manufacturing an excuse to go to war.

    Hillary Clinton has to be incredible naive to think people are going to believe her shoddy excuse.

    She voted the way she did because she was doing what all consummate politicians do: reflexively flag wave at every opportunity, because they don’t want to appear to be weak on defense.

  • Although many in the press are obsessing over whether she’ll apologize for the vote to authorize the war, what we really need to know is whether she thinks the war itself was a bad idea, or whether she simply thinks George Bush bungled the execution of it.The answer to that question, would tell us how Hillary Clinton would conduct foreign policy.

  • Krugman may have wrapped up this conversation with a nice bow in the Times this morning:
    “Although she’s smart and sensible, she’s very much the candidate of the Beltway establishment… Still, she’s at worst a triangulator, not a megalomaniac; she’s not another Dick Cheney. . . . But back to Mrs. Clinton’s problem. For some reason she and her advisers failed to grasp just how fed up the country is with arrogant politicians who can do no wrong. I don’t think she falls in that category; but her campaign somehow thought it was still a good idea to follow Karl Rove’s playbook, which says that you should never, ever admit to a mistake. And that playbook has led them into a political trap.”

  • Ummmkay…
    Ready for an outsiders’ point of view?
    ‘Cause I, a Dane, am about to bring it.

    Here goes-

    If I were an American voter,
    I’d work like hell for a decent Democratic candidate in ’08.
    Sure, If it came right down to it and Hillary was the Candidate…
    I’d vote for her… as the lesser of two evils.
    But why succumb to such a bleak prospect already?
    There are far better ways to spend your Liberal hearts’ blood, right now,
    than on someone stupid enough to fellate GWB when he wanted to get his wrinkly, atrophied nuts off.
    How about -trying- for gold, before settling for bronze?
    Stop being whiny cobagz.
    Get up and act.

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