Sunday Discussion Group

The Clinton-Obama dust-up seemed to get most of the attention this week, but there was another noteworthy exchange between two very high-profile political figures this week that deserves another look.

Dick Cheney, speaking to ABC about the war in Iraq, said, “I think if we were to do what Speaker Pelosi and Congressman Murtha are suggesting, all we’ll do is validate the al Qaeda strategy.” The good news is, Pelosi’s office didn’t want to let the comments go unchallenged. The less good news was the chosen response.

Pelosi literally called the White House to complain. The Speaker’s office also released a press statement to Bush saying, “You cannot say as the president of the United States, ‘I welcome disagreement in a time of war,’ and then have the vice president of the United States go out of the country and mischaracterize a position of the speaker of the House and in a manner that says that person in that position of authority is acting against the national security of our country.”

This led Cheney to take another shot. “I’m not sure what part of it is that Nancy disagreed with,” the VP said. “She accused me of questioning her patriotism. I didn’t question her patriotism. I questioned her judgment.” Cheney also mocked Pelosi for calling the president, but not being able to reach him directly (the Speaker spoke to Chief of Staff John Bolten instead).

I like the fact that Pelosi’s office took a stand, but the response had a “I’m telling Dad” quality to it.

I think we can probably come up with a better response, if we think about it.

Josh Marshall offered a helpful perspective.

I don’t know how many times this needs to be said: stop complaining that [Cheney’s] questioning anybody’s patriotism. Or Pelosi’s judgment. Or any of it. I know it’s a dicey phrase, especially when it’s being employed against a woman. But I think explanatory value outweighs other sensitivities. This is a perfect example of the GOP’s bitch slap theory of electoral politics. Cheney criticize; Dems, Pelosi, whoever says it’s unfair.

The point of the whole exercise is not the underlying issue of Pelosi but what the exchange is supposed to demonstrate about both players — that Cheney is strong (he hits) and Pelosi is weak (she complains when attacked.)

Why complain about anything Dick Cheney says? The man is simply too big a fool to hold any job of responsibility in the national government. Think of his history of failure, terrible judgment, reckless endangerment of the country. It’s hard to imagine that there’s anyone in this country not under active federal surveillance who has done more to advance the al Qaeda agenda than Dick Cheney. […]

It’s true. So say it. Don’t whine. Don’t complain. The idea that Dick Cheney is telling anyone what helps or harms al Qaeda is comic. Bleak comedy, but comic nonetheless. Say so.

Barack Obama didn’t come right out and make Josh’s point, but he seems to be on the right track. At a huge rally in Texas the other day, Obama responded to Cheney’s assertion that it’s a sign of progress that the British are withdrawing from Iraq. “Dick Cheney said this is all part of the plan (and) it was a good thing that Tony Blair was withdrawing, even as the administration is preparing to put 20,000 more of our young men and women in,” Obama said. “Now, keep in mind, this is the same guy that said we’d be greeted as liberators, the same guy that said that we’re in the last throes. I’m sure he forecast sun today,” Obama said to laughter from rained-on supporters holding campaign signs over their heads to keep dry. “When Dick Cheney says it’s a good thing, you know that you’ve probably got some big problems.”

Exactly. Mockery is often the best response, particularly when dealing with someone who’s been as wrong as Cheney. It led Jonathan Zasloff to come up with a fun idea: time for a simile contest! Fill in the blank: “Dick Cheney attacking someone’s judgment is like ____________”

Let’s give the Dems a hand and come up with some good ones.

Zasloff’s response is even lamer than Pelosi’s, I gotta say.

The truth is conservatives are very good are mockery (i.e. turning liberal into a bad word), liberals are not. Our only weapon is strong and forceful rhetoric that forces the right on the defensive. It worked during campaign season; pity that it’s been mistaken for a lack of civility.

  • i would tell dickhead cheney that someone who has been wrong on everything he ever said about iraq, is in no position to question anybody else’s judgement. period.

  • or, if pelosi really wants to get him where it counts, she could start impeachment proceedings. she’s got enough to do it, and that would fix the whole problem. permanently.

  • I think we can probably come up with a better response, if we think about it.

    How about “Go fuck yourself”?

    I liked Obama’s response too. He seems to realize that the best way to rebut these aresholes is with their own words.

  • Cheney and Bush have been wrong about everything for the past six years. Why should anyone give them the time of day?

  • Does it rankle anyone else that Cheney took his potshots while he was travelling abroad? Rightwingers get all very pious if/when Bush is criticized when he’s out of the country – shouldn’t it work the other way also?

  • Dick Cheney attacking someone’s judgment is like Rupert Murdock berating the BBC for biased reporting.

    Dick Cheney attacking someone’s judgment is like Elmer Fudd trying to show Bugs Bunny about hunting.

    Dick Cheney attacking someone’s judgment is like the Pope criticizing someone’s sex life.

    Dick Cheney attacking someone’s judgment is like Britney Spears commenting on someone’s hairdo.

    Dick Cheney attacking someone’s judgment is like Hanna-Barbera criticizing Disney’s animation.

    Dick Cheney attacking someone’s judgment is like Ted Haggard preaching against homosexuality.

    Dick Cheney attacking someone’s judgment is like Charlie Brown offering to coach Lucy in football.

    Dick Cheney attacking someone’s judgment is like Ronald Reagan questioning the motives of Mother Teresa (which he did) while embracing teenage-prostitution mogul Ferdinand Marcos (which he did).

    Dick Cheney attacking someone’s judgment is like John “Granpa” McCain telling us all to never flip-flop or “Rotten Rudy” Giuliani advising us on marriage.

    Dick Cheney attacking someone’s judgment is like George Walker Bush demonstrating how ride a bicycle, pronounce “nuclear”, separate church from state, make international friends, track down genuine foes, give German chancellors respect, raise daughters, respond to Katrina, win a war he lied us into … attempting to do one single thing right.

  • Actually, this could work against the WH. If the chief statesman of the country is the President, then he faces a political choice—either reign in the loose cannon, or acknowledge that he’s too weak to do so. As for “Mr. [c]Haney,” he needs to take his dealing-in-absolutes mentality and go back to the farm—Arnold the Pig is lonely….

  • More seriously, I agree with just bill (#3): if Pelosi is bother by Cheney and Bush, she should at least begin looking into impeachment proceedings. There’s plenty of ground for impeachment if the Democrats have the guts to do their duty.

  • Speaker Pelosi should have fired back; “It is evident that Mr. Cheaney and his advisors have never assessed the possibility that this administration’s strategic response to 9/11 have validated the al Qaeda strategy.”

  • I don’t think there is a limit on how much Dems can ridicule Cheney profitably. VPs have always been buffoons (except Al Gore). Now people are seeing that Cheney fits that mold. His ridiculous spin needs to be ridiculed by Dems to the maximum degree. Remember he was supposed to be the gravitas of this administration. Expose Cheney’s idiocy and we expose Bush.

  • Perhaps Pelosi isnt as bright as people think. Doesnt she know by now that attempting legitimate interaction with this WH is a waste of breath. Speak to the American people; the thugs have filled their ears with feces.

  • “Dick Cheney attacking someone’s judgment is like ____________”

    is like DIck Cheney giving advice on gun safety.

    Seriously, the only proper response to Dick Cheney is “Bite Me” (so much more ladylike than Go Fuck Yourself);>

  • “Frankly, it surprises me that new organizations still ask Mr. Cheney for his opinion, since he’s been wrong every time he’s said anything about this war, and as Vice President has no actual constitutional policy role in our government. We all know that he has opinions, but I’m sure Britney does too.”

  • Complaining to Bush about Cheney is like complaining to the puppet about the ventrilolquist’s bad manners.
    This only enhances the illusion that Bush is the real president, it also makes Nancy look like a fool.

  • Ethel-to-Tilly is right. The rightwingnuts tried to destroy the Dixie Chicks for the innocuous comment of being ashamed that Bush was from Texas during their London concert in 2003. The main reason country music fans went nuts was that the comment was made on foreign soil. Now stupid Cheney travels abroad and accuses the Democrats of validating al Qaeda. Where is the outrage now?!

  • Dick Cheney attacking someone else’s judgement is like Dick Cheney criticising Harvey Korman for sneering in public performances.

  • “Dick Cheney attacking someone’s judgment is like ____________”

    …trusting PeeWee Herman’s movie reviews
    …expecting Stephen Colbert to praise the press at the WHCA dinner
    …equating Jonah Goldberg’s courage with that of the troops serving in Iraq
    …seeing Laura Bush as an example for women to follow

  • Hey, Klan member going by the moniker “USA”, any thoughts on the original topic of the thread? Could that be compared to a shining light of intelligence festering under a sheet? Not likely, your over the top bullshit makes me hesitant to criticize Israel for things that are actually facts, not delusions like you spout as a result of your overmedication. We should be concerned that Israel is negotiating with the US for the use of the air corridor over Iraq on their way to Iran making us culpable for Israel’s attack on Iran as a co-conspirator. No mention in the US press though the UK Guardian picked up on it. Here is a JPost denial that I don’t give much credence to. Israel’s deputy defense minister denying intentions to strike Iran through air corridor through Iraq. Shrub doesn’t intend to start the war with Iran, that would require Congress’s approval which is not likely, but if we are attacked by the Iranians because they are retaliating because Israel attacked, we will be in the war and Congress will be forced to approve military action against Iran. What alternative will we have, stand there with our hands in our pockets.

    As to the original thread, Dick Cheney criticizing someone is like Shrub regulating membership at MENSA, NAMBLA maybe, but not MENSA.

  • “Dick Cheney attacking someone’s judgment is like ____________”
    The Three Stooges explaining quantum physics.
    cultural diversity day with the KKK.
    getting recipes from Jeff Dahlmer.

  • “The continued flow of Hollywood cash to the Democrats, whatever the motives or intentions of its organizers, is a deeply reactionary fact of American political life.”

    Yeah, it’s just terrible that Hollywood gives money to Democrats, not anything at all like Enron/Texaco/BP/Union Oil, etc. financing Republicans.

    Go stick your head back up your ass, “USA” – your homeschooled moron stupidity is showing again.

  • Actually, USA, you should be complimented for your unceasing efforts to demonstrate that fuckwits like you are a lower form of life than a lemur. Your presence here proves how user-friendly computers are, that hairless bipeds lacking frontal lobes and opposable thumbs can use them.

    Does mommy know what you’re doing with that computer down in the basement? I hear if you put your acne medicine on your head, your baldness will go away.

    What a perfect example of “Homo Sap” you are.

  • Go stick your head back up your ass, “USA” – your homeschooled moron stupidity is showing again.

    He’s gone, as is his post.

  • It’s all about “push-back” haven’t the Dems learnt this yet? The verbal “push-back” can be very effective on its own, but its more about what you are conveying in that action. I heard what you said, I don’t agree, this is my view, repsond to that. As I said about Hilary last week, if you can’t even win a war of words, you look weak. The only one looking effect on this measure at the moment is Obama; he seems to have a finger on the pulse of what is being said and reacts, quickly and decisively, and doesn’t come across as needing a committee meeting to know how to respond.

    And Nancy, stop whining please.

  • Pelosi’s office is obviously working with an antiquated notion of decency and civility in public office. She feels that the Bushites can be shamed into thinking with common sense and acting for the benefit of the general welfare of the citizens of these United States. Wrong.

    Pelosi needs to see what Cheney’s doing. He being the typical Veep attack dog, and Pelosi is falling for his schtick by respoding to what Dick’s saying rather than taking a shot back. Dick is involved in political theater, he’s saying entertaining insults to throw some red meat to the base. His obviously stupid remarks how audacity to his base and show his “fight” and “stomach” for the political warfare.

    Pelosi needs to treat Cheney’s comments like snaps — those street corner insults that challenge the opponent to come up with a nastier insult along the lines of “Your mamma’s so ugly cab drivers make her ride in the trunk.” Pelosi needs to fire back with a snap that gets Cheney back on his heels. Pelosi should fire back that “Dick is so dishonest that every time he says the war is a great success we lose another member of the coalition of the willing.” “When Dick says al Qaeda is on the ropes, bin Laden throws a party to celebrate his success.” And when the Repubs express faux indignation, Pelosi shouldn’t apologize and only say “Prove me wrong.”

    Insead of a simile contest, we should host a snaps contest. Fill in the blanks … “Dick Cheney is so _________ that ______________.”

  • I’ve never been one to kick people when they’re down, but Cheney is an exception. I’d beat him up with his own lies until he’s afraid to show his face anywhere.

  • …..like having your party catered by Hannibal Lecter
    ……asking a blind man for directions
    …….a cowboy wearing sneakers to a rodeo
    …….telling King Kong the toilets ’round back
    ……..like sending 36 tons of cash into a war zone
    …………..being a vegetarian rancher
    ………….a blind lion tamer
    ,………….telling Mike Tyson “You hit like a girl”
    …………..Cheney creating terrorists….oh wait, I forgot…Iraq.
    Cheney needs to loosen up his attends and then possibly he could admit he is ever wrong.
    ………saying “Shoot the apple off my head Dick, come on, shoot the apple off my head”.

  • “Dick Cheney attacking someone’s judgment is like ____________”

    Condi Rice giving seminars on diplomacy.
    Donald Rumsfeld teaching military theory.
    Abu Gonzales lecturing on Constitutional Law.
    Karen Hughes offering thoughts on international public relations.

    Not one f’ing clue, not the hint, the whiff, the thought of one amongst the lot of them and every parasite they enable.

    Like a hurricane absorbs heat and gathers energy from it, Cheney is not only impervious to words, he feels that the push back ratifies and strengthens his bellicose stance. The only thing that Cheney will be perturbed by is a roadblock that either he can’t go around or which is an impediment that is worthy of real time in the bunker to figure out how to get past it.

    We talk about his usurped power. He feels that power to the marrow of his bones and he does not give a flying fuck about words.

    Symbolic gestures are jackshit to Cheney and for effectively pushing back against his arrogance, anything less than actions that effectively tie his hands or get him out of office will be shrugged off.

    For all of that, I still like what Pelosi is doing and she doesn’t seem like she will defeated or discouraged if a particular path doesn’t work. There’s some validity to checking off the list and doing things in a formal way but quickly moving on to the next if no results are obtained.

    She hates Cheney as much as we do. Probably more because she’s actually met the asshole. She’s a smart lady. She’s working on it.

  • Dick Cheney is so cyncical that he took five draft deferements and bragged about having better things to do — prior to ordering 3,155 GIs to their deaths (so far), along with serious injury to 32,544 more who will be with us rest of their lives.

  • When I first started thinking about this “challenge,” I was trying to come up with “two-fers,” i.e., something that not only fires back at Cheney, but reinforces the corruption of all of his Republican cohort.

    “Trusting Dick Cheney’s judgement is like trusting Mark Foley to mentor your teenage son.”

    “Trusting Dick Cheney’s judgement is like trusting Duke Cunningham to write Congressional ethics rules (or trusting Jack Abramoff to lobby for your tribe).

    “Trusting Dick Cheney’s judgement is like trusting your retirement to your Enron holdings.”

    “Trusting Dick Cheney’s judgement is like trusting Brownie to do a heckuva job if your neighborhood floods.”

    “Trusting Dick Cheney’s judgement is like trusting the President to keep his promise to fire anyone involved in leaking Valarie Plame’s name.”

    “Trusting Dick Cheney’s judgement is like trusting Newt Gingrich (Rudy Giuliani) when he says “I do.”

    “Trusting Dick Cheney’s judgement is like trusting he will set aside his other priorties to join the military and fight for his country.”

    “Trusting Dick Cheney’s judgement is like trusting Harriet Meirs with a spot on the Supreme Court.”

    “Trusting Dick Cheney’s judgement is like trusting your gut instinct to stay on vacation cutting brush in Crawford after the CIA briefs you that Bin Laden is determined to strike in the US.”

    “Trusting Dick Cheney’s judgement is like trusting that going shopping is a sufficient personal contribution to the response to 9/11.”

    “Trusting Dick Cheney’s judgement is like trusting Senator / Dr. Bill Frist to diagnose your brain injury based only on a video tape.”

    But, after coming up with the above ideas, I got the feeling that use of such language would merely be branded as too ad hominem, angry, and unfair by the mighty Wurlitzer.

  • Will every person who mentions impeachment PLEASE give their list of the 17 Republican Senators they see as voting for it? (That’s assuming all the Democrats do, including the Nelsons.) Without that — and I don’t see it as a possibility — all impeachment would do would be to give Republican spinmeisters a field day.

    I hear the voice of Karl Rove pleading “Oh, please don’ throw me in dat briar patch, Brer Fox.”

  • Dithering while Cheney drives us toward the Apocalypse, as detailed by new Sy Hersh story: I want to scream — or is it that I’m hearing a scream echoing back to us from the future? The latest Seymour Hersh story in the New Yorker has more to do with the world of Thomas Pynchon than with the world of last week’s cover kid Eustace Tilley. “A screaming comes across the sky.” Is Bush trying to bluff and threaten the Iranians into submission? Maybe. Who knows? But as we saw in the buildup to the Iraq war, the threat of force by these guys has a way of turning into the use of force. We’re rapidly approaching an apocalyptic future that has a screaming written all across the sky — unless there’s a real screaming right here, at home, on the ground.

  • in response to prup @# 39, as with any proceeding of this type the key is in how the house prepares the case. in effect, they are the prosecutors, and the senate is the jury. i think that there is so much that cheney has done that would qualify as high crimes and misdemeanors, that a skillful team in the house would be able to present a case that very likely might convince those 17. at the very least it would certainly expose this administration for what it is, which would be nothing but beneficial for this country. i think the dirty laundry needs to be exposed, and this laundry is really dirty.

  • Once again I agree with just bill (#41). Waiting till 2/3 of the Senate signs on is like not prosecuting a criminal until the guilty verdict is guaranteed in advance. I’d be satisfied if our brave representatives could screw up just enough courage to open hearings on the possibility of obtaining an indictment.

    A decade ago the GOP obtained an indictment for lying about a private blowjob, for Christ’s sake. And our noble solons can’t even look into gross violations of our Constitution, myriad lies to the American public, wholesale theft of our tax dollars, burying our military and money in the Quagmire without authorization?

    The Founding Father must be spinning their graves.

  • Spot on, CB.

    Comment #1 is obviously wrong- we all have heard of Stephen Colbert, after all.

    We can make fun of them well.

  • Speaker Pelosi is nobody’s fool, and called Bolton so she could say exactly what was on her mind and off the record. One can only imagine:

    “You’re dog got off it’s leash again and took a dump right in the middle of the Rotunda.”

    “Oh?”

    “I took the liberty of having the DC pound neuter it. We sure wouldn’t want that thing to breed, now would we.”

    “Thanks, but next time, let’s let the pound keep it.”

    Poor Dicky. Nobody luvs him anymore…

  • Paul Krugman:

    “Six years ago a man unsuited both by intellect and by temperament for high office somehow ended up running the country.

    How did that happen? First, he got the Republican nomination by locking up the big money early.

    Then, he got within chad-and-butterfly range of the White House because the public, enthusiastically encouraged by many in the news media, treated the presidential election like a high school popularity contest. The successful candidate received kid-gloves treatment — and a free pass on the fuzzy math of his policy proposals — because he seemed like a fun guy to hang out with, while the unsuccessful candidate was subjected to sniggering mockery over his clothing and his mannerisms.”

  • Very minor, but worth noting that the WH CoS is Josh Bolten, rather than John — not to be confused with the mustachioed wonder, John Bolton.

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