Sunday Discussion Group

March 25, 2007

Despite the latest revelations that Alberto Gonzales lied about his involvement in the prosecutor purge, the President is standing by his Attorney General. I’m wondering if he’s the only one.

I was reading several conservative blogs yesterday to gauge their support for the embattled AG. I was surprised to see so many who have decided that Gonzales is no longer deserving of support.

Ed Morrissey:

Have we had enough yet? I understand the argument that if we allow the Democrats to bounce Gonzales, they’ll just aim for more, but Gonzales made himself the target here with what looks like blatant deception. I don’t think we do ourselves any good by defending the serially changing stories coming out of Gonzales’ inept administration at Justice. One cannot support an Attorney General who misleads Congress, allows his staffers to mislead Congress, and deceives the American people, regardless of whether an R or a D follows his name or the majority control of Congress.

Right Wing Nut House:

I will brook no excuses by commenters that Gonzalez “misspoke,” or “forgot,” or “got a note from his mother” that gave him permission to lie, or other excuses from the ever dwindling number of Bush diehards who visit this site . He is the frickin’ Attorney General of the United States fer crissakes! If there is anybody in government who needs to tell the truth, it is the guy responsible for enforcing the laws of land.

Jonah Goldberg:

Some readers are cross with me for using the word “lied” in reference to Gonzales. Okay, he may simply have been deeply, deeply, confused, out of touch and unprepared to give a press conference which was supposed to put an end to the “scandal” and instead poured gasoline on it at a time when his boss, the President of the United States and Commander-in-Chief, had vastly more important things to deal with.

There are, of course, many more. Considering that many of the same conservatives who now have little use for Gonzales were defending him up until fairly recently, are we starting to see the bow break?

As is usually the case, the White House has decided that the key to enduring a serious scandal is maintaining the support of far-right allies. Indeed, the more Rove & Co. can characterize the controversy as a Dems vs. GOP, left vs. right, affair, the easier it will be to persevere.

But are we finally looking at a scandal that even Bush loyalists can’t defend? Gonzales having been caught in a new mess may be a turning point, as evidenced by the blogs’ reaction noted above, but the writing has been on the wall all week.

* A half-dozen congressional Republicans, including one (ostensive) presidential candidate, have joined Dems in calling for Attorney General Alberto Gonzales’ ouster.

* Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) sided with Dems on White House subpoenas, and Arlen Specter kinda-sorta agreed.

* A Republican leadership staffer told Roll Call this week, “We are not throwing ourselves on the grenade for them anymore. There’s now an attitude of ‘you created this mess, you’ve got to get yourself out of it.'”

After watching conservatives back Bush on everything from Iraq to Plame to illegal NSA wiretaps to Katrina, have we finally found the one thing the right isn’t willing to defend? And if so, isn’t it safe to assume the political pressure on the White House will be even more intense?

And if that’s so, exactly how bad is this going to get for the Bush gang?

Discuss.

So what do you think explains the failure of the mainstream media to cover the purge scandal for so long, and so many other scandals? Do you think somebody just set up newspaper editors to cheat on their wives, and threatened to tell if the editors wouldn’t play ball when they come back some day and ask for something?

It wouldn’t be that hard to do, when you think about it. People wouldn’t talk about it.

  • Funny James Wolcott post about Goldberg:

    Parenting Bleg (Jonah Golberg)

    Okay, so my four year old daughter desperately wants me to do more magic tricks. All I can really do for her are variations of “Hey, I found a quarter in your ear” stuff. And even then, the prestidigitation isn’t really up to snuff. If she were five, she’d be on to me. So, I need really simple, stupid in fact, magic tricks that can be done with little skill, that will impress a four year-old. Any suggestions?

    Perhaps you could pull a completed manuscript out of your ass and watch those little eyes light up with wonder.

  • Georgie isn’t the only one. There is the Mad Hatcher too — Sen. Orrin Hatch — who has declared that unless it can be proved that General Gonzo lied deliberately, he deserves to go on protecting our kids.

    Read all about it.

  • If I were Bush I’d stick it out to the bitter end, if for no other reason than to make the Democrats look cowardly and confused (which they are). Have Gonzales take all the heat for anything that happens the remainder of the term; “justice” covers one hell of a lot of ground. And it is kinda nice to have one’s AG be in favor of torture and think international conventions are “quaint”.

    Think of Abu Gonzo as a black hole, absorbing all the hate and frustration with which ordinary working and thoughtful people view the national insult known as the Bush Crime Family. Alberto’s already a proven liar, and if there’s more than that I doubt Rove will ever let us find it out. So this is as bad as it gets. And that ain’t so bad, is it? Has anyone been shot or even sneezed at? Far as I know, everyone important is still hangin’ in there, and the little people don’t matter.

    It’s painfully obvious that the Democrats are frightened of their own shadows. The phrase “executive privilege” turns them to mush. The word “impeachment” turns them to bowls of jelly. They’ve apparently all agreed that they shouldn’t embarrass our Prezydunt by passing any legislation which might force him to use the veto. Can’t have the Shrub embarrassed by racking up as many vetoes as he once did executions. Democrats seem to agree that everyone in the administration, along with their deep pockets cronies, are well above the law. As long as House and Senate members get to keep their travel privileges and gym passes, everything’s hunky-dory.

    E Pluribus Unum. Doesn’t that translate to something like “Unity through plutocracy”?

  • Call me cynical, but I wonder if these oh so serious commentators would be as willing to toss Gonzo under the bus if he was a white guy with greying hair. Would they be singing the same song if it was Ashcroft’s butt in the same sling? I somehow doubt it.

    I don’t mean to say this is a case of overt racism from wingnut high command. It’s more subtle. They desperately need a scapegoat, specifically on the topic of truthfulness. They have defended this administration at every turn, while the honesty of the regime has gone from questionable to laughable. They need to have a cause where they can ‘demand honesty’ without directly confronting their leaders. Cheney gets a pass, Bush gets a pass. Rumsfeld got a pass and Bolton got a pass. (Abramoff didn’t get a pass, but his problems did get ignored.)

    Aside from people who criticized the Deciderer, the only people thrown under the bus were Miers and now, presumably Gonzales.

    It may be a simple coincidence, but wingnut history suggests that when crap hits the fan, women and minorities are more expendable than the white guys with the greying hair.

    I’d like to believe otherwise, but this admin has outdone my cynicism at just about every turn.

  • When you’ve lost Whalesnack Goldberg…

    I’d like to think that this initial show of disenchantment or defiance or what have you, will grow to include all of the other things the fRight Wingers have so steadfastly ignored, like the fact that the man they voted into the White Hose is the Worst. President. Ever.

    If these excerpts are any indication it ain’t gonna happen.

    The fRighties calling for Gonzales’ ouster are a little uneasy right now. Saying bad things about the mAdministration is treachery, even blasphemy. It must be, they’ve been saying so for YEARS. They don’t want to say these things but some tiny shred of remaining conscience is compelling them to do so and they want it to stop. They want that little bit of conscience to shut up and die already. They want Gonzales to go away so they can march lock-step back to the fold and the good old days of My pRezident ’tis of thee.

    Note that in the comments above the complaint isn’t that Goner has been finding new and creative ways to crap on the Constitution or that he fired people based on their willingness to kiss the ring. It is that he lied to Congress. Or to be more cynical, he got caught lying and failed to have a good spin for the lie. And have any of these posts said anything about Goner’s employer? I suppose I could go look but I’m feeling a little queasy this a.m. However, from the comments CB posted it looks like everyone wants to paint this as Goner’s fault. Not the man who hired him, not the man who continues to support him. Maybe if BushBrat continues to stand by his AG someone will emit a little burp of annoyance with Fearless Cheerleader. But this little show of defiance isn’t going to make things worse for BushCo (TM). If Gonzo should GTFO, we can assume Shrubya will pick something equally vile to replace him. All of the Democrats will say “Yuck, no way,” and Goldberg and his fellow “mavericks” will settle back into the comfortable position of deriding the Terrist Coddling Dems.

    Happy days are here again.

  • Any reasonable, critical Catholic — oh, say, Garry Wills — could have predicted the jam the Republicans now find themselves in.

    t’s the same thing that happened after the first Vatican council, when the pope was declared infallible in matters of faith and doctrine.

    If George picked ’em, and they turn out to be disasters, then George is wrong — which is impossible. So they can’t be disasters — which is contradicted by the evidence.

  • I agree with Orange. No one on the right or in Congress seems to want to focus on the source of the Bush Administration’s cynical dismantling of American democracy — George W. Bush himself. I find that deeply disheartening. Gonzales lied. Well, why not? His bosses have been lying with abandon now for more than six years, and no one has done a thing but wring their hands.

    Meanwhile, over 3200 U.S. troops have died in Bush’s war, thousands and thousands more have been injured and maimed, and tens of thousands of Iraqis have died. All for … what? It boggles the mind.

  • If you look in toto at what the three stooges have written with respect to Gonzales you will find that none of them believes that the administration has done anything wrong in firing the US Attorneys. For example, Right Wingnut House writes that he agrees with the following.

    These attorneys’ attitudes towards their clients can be summed up as follows: I’d like to defend you, but you’re making it very difficult for me.

    This is the way I am starting to feel about the folks in the Bush Administration, on the issue of the U.S. Attorney firings. They have unquestionably been the victims of some smears by Democrats and Big Media (but I repeat myself). As a result, I’d like to defend them.

    But they’re making it really, really hard for me to do so.

    And Captain Ed writes:

    Have we had enough yet? I understand the argument that if we allow the Democrats to bounce Gonzales, they’ll just aim for more, but Gonzales made himself the target here with what looks like blatant deception. I don’t think we do ourselves any good by defending the serially changing stories coming out of Gonzales’ inept administration at Justice. One cannot support an Attorney General who misleads Congress, allows his staffers to mislead Congress, and deceives the American people, regardless of whether an R or a D follows his name or the majority control of Congress.

    When the story broke about the NSA terrorist surveillance program, Bush did not hide behind a morphable definition of “is” or “involved”. He stood at the podium and told the press that he damned well did order the surveillance program and that he broke no laws in doing so. In that manner, he turned the leak into a net positive, showing that he had the courage of his convictions and that he intended nothing more than the security of the nation.

    Alberto Gonzales and his team has done the exact opposite, and have thrown gasoline on a fire — no, not a fire, but a mere spark that would have been a two-day story otherwise. Gonzales needs to go.

    All these guys are arguing is that Gonzales has to be sacrificed to save Junior and Turd Blossom. This is nothing more than facing up to the reality that the Democrats have at long last grown themselves a pair.

    Grassley and, to some extent, Specter, whose ass has to be pretty sore from siting on the fence, are different stories. Their failure to vote to quash the subpoenas suggest that they understand the full implication of the purge and want answers. It is this development, rather than the stooge’s turning on Gonzales, which augers poorly for BushCo. Keep in mind thought that these are only the opening gambits in this game. While they are encouraging, it is still too soon to see how things will play out.

  • What little oversight the Dems are managing to muster in recent weeks is already pointing out, quite starkly, that there hasn’t been any oversight for six years. Since January 2001 the Bush thugs have closed the doors, pulled down the shades, and turned off the lights in the government. Their arrogant, illega,l secretive, behavior, has made them too cocky by half, and the impunity they had from a brain dead Congress is history. We’re only getting a tiny glimpse of what has gone down, and we’ll probably never know what Cheney and his nazis have been up to all over the world. Gonzales and DOJ are mostly a sideshow to the center ring cloaked in darkness: our snarling VP.

    What will all the Repub mafiosos do when the chips are really down?

  • “Okay, he may simply have been deeply, deeply, confused, out of touch and unprepared to give a press conference which was supposed to put an end to the “scandal” and instead poured gasoline on it at a time when his boss, the President of the United States and Commander-in-Chief, had vastly more important things to deal with.”

    Jonah sounds like TCR’s Russ Lieber by making excuses for Gonzo which I thought was a “liberal” trait.

    I think the quotes around scandal are rather quaint considering the scandal is a full blown one.

  • Discuss? What is there to discuss? They’re goners. It’s only a matter of time. Their cover’s blown. They’re fully exposed. It’s all done bar the shouting. Of course, if blowjob standards had been applied to this administration earlier, the White House would now be empty.

  • Herr Bush hat sein Stalingrad getroffen—ja?

    It’s gotten rather late to throw “the carcinogen commonly known as Gonzo” under the bus now; the cancer of this most present scandal has grown beyond being merely benign, and it has spread beyond the potential for cure by surgical extraction. My prognosis for the “scud”ministration? Terminal malignancy—and heavy doses of “chemo-spin” will no longer, in my opinion, preserve the “patient” until the scheduled end-of-term in January 2009….

  • I’m surprised by posters above who say the Dems are confused, or that they are conducting little oversight. Folks, they’ve been back in power for only a couple of months and the floodgates are opening wide. These things can’t happen overnight and, frankly, they are doing just fine. They would, of course, be doing better if Lieberman weren’t Waxman’s parallel in the Senate. He won’t investigate anything.

  • In the context you’re using it, that should be, “Are we seeing the BOUGH break?”, as opposed to bow.

  • Leiberman is a disgrace as far as I’m concerned – sheep in wolf’s clothing and all that – and HE was Gore’s VP pick for cripe’s sake! And now he’s playing at blackmail? The people of CT cannot be happy about that.

    But pay no attention to the man behind the curtain telling you the Dems are confused. There was so much garbage left from the last session to be taken out it’s a wonder that the floor can even be seen in EITHER house.

  • “I’d like to defend you, but you’re making it very difficult for me.”

    Eventually this thought bubble will be evident over the Bush Supreme Court Justices when they are forced to choose between the Constitution and their benefactor.

  • “…when they are forced to choose between the Constitution and their benefactor.”

    I used to have faith in that, but I no longer do. Not only do we have Scalia, who’s already a questionable card in the somewhat stacked deck, but we have 2 UberBushie appointees, do we not? That’s too close for comfort as far as I’m concerned. The fact that the only firewall we have is the SCOTUS is damn disturbing in itself.

  • The party’s over for these guys. Everyday it becomes more apparent that this administration really is THAT stupid. I am really beginning to doubt the broader conspiracy theories as well, as they obviously aren’t smart enough to conspire their way out of a bus stop. In the broader context it seems all of these scandals and laws being broken are really rooted in maintaining the bubble around Bush that we all offhandedly joke about (kudos to CB who has actually written serious commentary on it). In the smaller context, what they are doing to maintain that bubble is seriously undermining the very foundations of our Constitution and of co-equal branches of government. Therein lies the danger these guys present. I have heard arguments that the smaller context is their plan. But really, does anyone really think they are smart enough to hatch such a plan? My doubts are growing.

  • I agree with Orange. No one on the right or in Congress seems to want to focus on the source of the Bush Administration’s cynical dismantling of American democracy — George W. Bush himself.

    Comment by Wren

    Shruby, as a metabolizing humanoid, is irrelevant. He could be drooling and tracking doodle bugs around the White House lawn and he would still be held up as a totem of rectitude, perseverance and patriotic perfection. He is the Executive Commander in Chief Leader of the party and is a symbolic rallying icon for the party. He’s an essential list of heavy and irrefutable, (so they hope), titles. RepubCo is taking hits right now but without the leader icon to focus believer’s lost and worried thoughts on, they would be in a real tailspin.

    The shining aura of Dear Nitwit will be protected at all costs, even if Shruby quits shaving and hits the streets in his pj’s swilling T-bird.

  • I think the full quote from Morrisey proves that you’re being a bit naive, CB. One robin last Wednesday doesn’t mean there won’t be a blizzard next week. These guys are not upset that these illegal unconstitutional acts were done; they’re upset they got found out and weren’t dealt with better. There in a nutshell is the truth about these one-handed brownshirt wannabees.

    They aren’t ever going to be our friends, and you’re not ever going to enjoy having dinner with them and discussing “deep” issues. Even after Dan tok Clare to the hospital when her brother Nate died, he was still a Republican schmuck. A polite one, yes, but still a schmuck. That’s the way those people are – it’s why they are who they are.

    And now, Mr. CB….

    Take your hands off the keyboard, sir, and step away from the computer. Slowly. No sudden moves, sir. Turn and face the wall, place your hands behind your back.

    You are under arrest for violation of Article 1, Section 1, Code of the English Language. To wit: making up words and pretending they exist. Specifically: “ostensive”???

    You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to have an attorney present during questioning. If you cannot afford one, one will be provided for you. Do you understand these rights, sir?

    Your sentence is 500 lashes across the nose with a wet noodle cat o’ nine tails.

    And the right word is….. (drumroll)…

    Ostensible.

  • Jeffrey Rosen has a relevent article on The New Republic’s site, http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20061120&s=rosen112006 , on how a constitutional collision between the White House and Congress could play out. Originally published last November, it supposes a confrontation over an investigation of NSA domestic spying. But, the issues are the same as presented by the prosecutor purge. TNR put the article back on the front page today.

  • Forget the one-handed wonders of the Fighting 69er Kooky Keyboard Kommandos. Here’s the real truth about these fuckwits:

    http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_5517136

    I admit Hatch and Cannon get a bit of a pass from having grown up drinking the kool-aid and believing theocratic nuttiness is reasonable – this is Utah we’re talking about after all, where submission to All-Knowing Dominant Authority is in their genes – but they’re merely dumb enough to stand up and say what the real halfwits believe (notice I didn’t say “are thinking” since there is no evidence of that ability among these believers).

  • All for … what? It boggles the mind.

    Comment by Wren

    It’s all for the 14 trillion dollars worth of oil underneath Iraq. How could Bushco etal. ever walk away from that?

  • Oh Doogie Gonzalez will resign soon enough. But first Bush has to get the Judiciary Committee to agree on his replacement, either Ahmad Chalabi or Curveball.

  • #23, Tom Cleaver,

    Merriam-Webster defines “ostensive” with “of, relating to, or constituting definition by exemplifying the thing or quality being defined”

    “Ostensible” is “1 : intended for display : open to view
    2 : being such in appearance : plausible rather than demonstrably true or real

    I’m not sure I see the difference. Both are derived from ostendere to show.

    – Twit with Tenure

  • And if that’s so, exactly how bad is this going to get for the Bush gang? – Mr. CB

    I agree with wgnv at 16. Congresspersons aren’t superhuman and the entire country was caught off guard by the dedicated right wing anarchy set free by the Supreme Court and then 9/11.

    Today, the rubber is hitting the road with the RepubCo meme that nothing that has transpired in the DoJ thing is wrong. It’s “politics”, it’s earned privilege by the “ruling” party, it’s the way the game is played and that’s it. Get over it. Again.

    http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/013244.php

    I don’t think it will work. So much is coming out so quickly that it’s hard for the non-obsessed to absorb what’s going on, (or to focus their wandering attention spans on). But the true imperial nature of what ShrubCo wants, and what RepubCo is willing to stand by and protect is becoming more evident.

    The majority of Americans are tired of ShrubCo but they’re also tired of war and waste and foreclosures and too much debt and immigration and loud mouth do nothings and lies, lies, lies. Dealing with the collapse of the gov’t, no matter how richly deserved, is very disheartening. The Dems must be methodically aggressive and build the case. The mandate to move the country forward while engaging in damage control and contemplating regime change at home with a prybar while wearing the rusted, heavy duty ball and chain called RepubCo is a lot to tackle.

  • Every day that passes, more and more GOP members abandon Bush on this issue. The AG will be gone soon. Bush will get rid of him much like he was pressured to dump Rummie.

  • ***In the context you’re using it, that should be, “Are we seeing the BOUGH break?”, as opposed to bow.***
    —————-Mark

    I thought it was applicable. Imagine “the Good Ship Bushie” (a cheap rowboat made from worm-riddled plywood, assembled by outsourced labor, and paid for with taxpayer funds stolen from the treasury by faith-based groups and profit-thirsty multinationals) smacking head-on into the iceberg. I’d call that a “broken bow….”

  • I’m pretty sure any naivete shown by CB is a rhetorical technique to stimulate discussion. He’s been at this a while. The Trollope of blog writing?

    If Gonzales doen’t resign, who will appoint the special prosecutor?

  • Ronald said: “Everyday it becomes more apparent that this administration really is THAT stupid. I am really beginning to doubt the broader conspiracy theories as well, as they obviously aren’t smart enough to conspire their way out of a bus stop.”

    What is so surpassingly strange about all this is that the setup for a “permanent republican majority” was planned beginning in the mid 1970s, implemented effectively and with great patience over the years by gaining control over all the levers of power. They accomplished that. This was long-term planning at its best. I also have no doubt that they were continuing their quest for permanent power by completely coopting justice for their aims. It’s truly all of a piece.

    Their problem is that all of the things that the RW think tanks (I know, an oxymoron) planned to do when they had the power in hand were venal and stupid. They truly believed that with sufficient power they could shape reality to their whims, as in that classic bit where a WH insider told a reporter that the “reality-based community” would have to just sit back and watch as they reshaped the world. Iraq is just one of many examples of their stupidity, but the example that broke their hold on power.

    Reality is catching up, as one would hope. As members of the reality-based community, we will perhaps have the pleasure of watching reality pound them into dust. And blow them away.

    I’m making the popcorn now.

  • What I wouldn’t give to be a fly on the wall at the WH right now!

    Do you force Fredo, who’s broken laws for you, who’s come up with a legal justification for torture, and knows where the bodies are buried, to walk the plank? Gonzales, like Rove is one of the “family”, to build on Frank Rich’s metaphor. And since Bush hates to be pressured, his first instinct will be to tough it out.

    On the other hand, Bush is looking more Nixonian every day, increasingly weakened and isolated. The rats are deserting the ship and it’s only a matter of time before it’s a full rout. It might be tempting to get rid of some dead weight, though Bush surely knows, that once Rove and Meirs testify, he’s sunk.

  • #28: Ed

    I have never seen that word used before, and I actually did go looking to make sure I wasn’t imagining things before saying that.

    And there are some with tenure who weren’t twits in my experience. Not many, but they were memorable. I’m sure you know the malign influence of the TWT’s better than anyone else. 🙂

  • Actually, another example that you can’t trust everything you read if the dictionary I found didn’t have “ostensive” in it. Must have been compiled by a TWT.

  • wvng,

    Nice post. Perhaps one of the reasons the BushCo is floundering is their basic premiss that good governance is an oxymoron.

  • Nice post. Perhaps one of the reasons the BushCo is floundering is their basic premiss that good governance is an oxymoron.
    Comment by Amy

    True. Their belief that government doesn’t work is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

  • Bush’s contempt for good governance is similar to his disdain for the English language. While many of us find ourselves at sea in syntax and grammar dept. we care, and try to improve.

    Bush, on the other hand, seems to delight in mangling every other sentence and behaving like a frat boy whose personal safety net is a sizable trust fund.

    Even though so much of the Bush Administration’s failures were predictable, it’s worrisome that much of the MSM, is still, behind the curve on the US Attorneys scandal.

  • What will all the Repub mafiosos do when the chips are really down?

    [Rich]

    “Say hello to my little friend!” – Dick “Scar Veins” Cheney.

    I’m still keeping an eye peeled for tanks rolling towards the Capitol. However, I’m not sure who would drive them. Maybe I should keep an ear peeled for fighter jets. [/tinfoil hat]

    tAiO

    p.s. Viva les word nerds!

  • We the people demand that congress impeach the entire Bush administration, try them for treason and war crimes and exicute them all so they cannot re-produce

  • We the people need to blow up the SKULL AND BONES frat house, it seems that all theseBush administration scum sucking ideas originated from there.

  • It’s that time of the week again, time for “Twenty Bucks, Same as in Town“. Up for infamy:

    Pandagon
    The Poor Man takes on Jonah in another edition of Keyboard Kommando Komix
    Lydia Cornell and Doug Basham
    Lew Rockwell and
    Obsidian Wings who weighs in on why Karl Rove had his boy installed as a prosecutor in Arkansas.
    All this and pizza by the slice.

  • Yes, the skull & bones. But first the Federalist Society. It’s on every replacement USA’s resume, suggested and recent, not to mention a plethora of involved staffers. Then there’s those Supreme Court resumes.

  • We need to remind our Democratic leaders that this scandal is Gonzales’ fault the way Iraq was Rumsfeld’s.

    In other words, it ain’t. The blame rests a little higher up the chain of command.

    I will enjoy the spectacle of all the right wing morons snapping their own backs as they bend over backwards trying to give Bush a pass. The American people have finally seen the pattern, and it says: Wingnuts Are Dangerously Stupid People; Listen at Own Risk.

    Die, you bastards (politically, not literally). Please go back down in your mom’s basement and play Risk with your other wingnut friends, and leave the real world to people who admit that it exists.

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