Sunday Discussion Group

This week’s Democratic presidential debate featured eight candidates, of varying degrees of “competitiveness” (likelihood of getting the nomination). This upcoming week, the Republican hopefuls will face off with ten candidates sharing a stage, only some of whom have a legitimate shot at being the GOP nominee.

I’m wondering, should the parties, in conjunction with event organizers, limit participation in these events? If so, how?

There appear to be two main approaches to the question:

* The more, the merrier — Debates offer a level playing field, giving voters a unique opportunity to hear a variety of competing voices. To deny a candidate an opportunity to participate in such an event is inherently arbitrary and undemocratic. Sure, some candidates are obviously long shots, but a) their ideas deserve to be heard; and b) voters might like what they hear, propelling a dark horse into contention.

* Serious competitors only, please — Debates are a rare opportunity for voters to hear directly from the candidates, but more candidates means fewer questions and less information from the presidential hopefuls voters need to hear from most. Quixotic candidates aren’t going to win — they know it as well as everyone else — so their role in the debates is unnecessary and distracting. Limiting the events to credible competitors will make the debates more edifying and less farcical.

Of course, there are practical concerns to consider. How would certain candidates, including sitting and former members of Congress, be excluded? By whom? What would (should) the criteria be for participation? Poll standing? Fundraising?

Would more people watch a debate limited to the top contenders, or would fewer tune in because the more “colorful” candidates (cough, Gravel, cough) won’t be there? Was the GOP wrong to exclude Alan Keyes from some events in 2000?

Discuss.

This early in the process, I’m for dragging warm bodies off the street and propping them up on a dais. Definitely the more the merrier. But once we hit the actual election year, limit the debates to people with double digit poll numbers. As the convention nears, pare it down more. By April ’08 only include candidates within 15 points of the frontrunner.

  • If a candidate has the political organization and backing to successfully meet the ballot requirements to be on ballot in whatever state’s primary that the debate is in – or at the national level, to be on the ballots in enough states to possibly get enough electoral votes to win, then that candidate should automatically be entitled to be in any debate.

  • I don’t pay much attention at this stage of the game and that wouldn’t change if the field were narrowed or widened. I think it is a distraction from more important issues. Get back to me after the first of the year.

  • I’m all for wide-open at this point. But what I’m all for doesn’t matter one whit so long as TeeVee producers and their corporate bosses call the shots. These really aren’t debates in any sense of the word. They’re Q&A beauty contests, a very brief chance to watch the candidates parade their well-researched and rehearsed stuff through that most shallow and thought-free medium, the TeeVee screen. I didn’t catch the Dem “debate”, but I don’t think I missed anything other than possibly being briefly entertained by the crank. I would gladly trade the whole charade for decisions made by political pros in smoked-filled-rooms. Some of them, after all, were big enough to be impervious to corporate control. Looking back over the last half century, I think we were better served by that “corrupt” system.

  • While we debate who should be allow up on the stage:

    Looks like CNN is trying to shut down Mike Gravel… http://www.gravel2008.us/?q=node/640

    I guess that’s what happens when you:

    Suggest nuking Iran is immoral.
    Call Biden arrogant for arrogating at Iraqis.
    Say the war was lost from Day 1 because of Bush’s lies.

    Get that passionate bug off the stage!

    We need more Hillary and Obama and Biden.
    Responsible serious voices only please…

    {
    Parenthetically…. and in a whisper:
    Did anybody notice Hillary and Obama suddenly seem to be getting a bit more shrill about Bush’s immoral war?
    Gee… you don’t suppose that passionate bug bit a nerve do you?
    }

  • I will leave the requirements discussion alone, as that is a form of geekery that doesn’t appeal to me.

    In terms of getting the long-shot candidates’ views out there, I am all for it. The early process (and danmit, it is early – there is no reason to pay attention at this point – as a primary voter, I don’t need more than a month or two to figure out what the candidates’ positions are) should be about a wide range of ideas. Then, even if a candidate (*cough*Kucinich*cough*) has no shot at getting the nomination, the other candidates have to respond to what the long-shot is saying.

    More ideas, good, fewer ideas, bad. One of the many reasons I can never support the GOP. They don’t have ideas, they have marketing.

  • Bring them all on. Limiting the candidates invited to the debate is like limiting media access to only “serious” MSM reporters and limiting commentary to only “serious” pundits like David Broder (Bwaaahahahaha.)

    The national debate on the many issues facing us should include the spectrum. It’s good to hear a guy like Kucinich tilting at windmills or a guy like Gravel, with nothing to lose, speaking his mind. Having only the top contenders means we will only the focus-grouped, thoroughly vetted doublespeak and we’ll miss the passionate off-the-cuff remarks that give us a real idea of who these people are.

    We need to broaden our minds and not limit our choices to just two camps of thought. And why cut off the dark horses at this stage anyway? Their ideas may shift this election in ways we can’t yet imagine. I say no to prognosticating to who will be the frontrunners by the time convention time comes. Besides, maybe a Republican with contrary ideas to what the party is doing now can begin to shift that party away from the looney bin. Why limit our national politics to just the usual suspects?

    What we need to control is who gets to ask the questions and what do they get to ask. Who gets to pick the partisan idiots asking the questions after all, and why do they get to ask questions like who are the US’s three best friends (as if there is an appropriate answer to that), George Bush: great president or our greatest president or what is the airspeed velocity of an African swallow (laden or unladen?) How about some real honest and probing questions for a change.

  • Having lots of long-shot candidates around early on is a feature, not a bug. It mirrors the way one might make any major decision – think loosely and freely at first, then narrow down to the realistic choices. Plus, there’s the notion of adding fresh ideas to the discourse, which won’t happen if you are only talking to the usual suspects. And forcing the supposed front-runners to distinguish themselves among a crowd of wannabes is a useful exercise.

    Ed Stephan makes an excellent point about the general uselessness of TV political debate formats, though IMHO they aren’t nearly as pernicious and destructive as the 30 second ad format. I’d much rather dump ads entirely and do nothing but debates, however lame.

  • Mike Gravel might not be *your* ideal but he (and Kuchinich) give me voice. I’m grateful to both of them.

  • If anyone CANNOT grow up and run for President of the United States, then this is a democracy in which I’m no longer interested.

  • Well, one way to focus on issues and weed out the weaker candidates would be to..
    hold a debate!

    A good old fashioned debate using rules most high schoolers can manage. The forum would be held by a nonpartisan group with their own judges, and away we’d go. No longer would there be softball questions, and debaters could actually challenge one another’s ideas and candor.

    But I won’t hold my breath.

  • This debate is merely part of a selection process for the special interest kingmakers who will decide who gets their money. The winner they select needs to play the part of a independent principled leader while actually being their dependable flunky to hidden power.
    It is the American Idol, Apprentice, Dancing with the Stars format of delicious elimination. (Think of Gravel as William Hung.) The winner is the one with the greatest commercial potential and then becomes the marketing property of the show.
    Why be concerned about the exchange of ideas when it will all come down to lavish spending on a few Madison Avenue soundbites endlessly repeated ?

  • The post-modern “debate” where the questions (and the answers) are scripted, and where the “debaters” simply regurgitate their canned arguments, which may or may not have anything to do with the questions anyway, are nearly without value as a method for discerning ability or honesty in a candidate.

    The already minuscule value of such an event is inversely related to the number of people on stage, as it limits the ability of the questioners to focus on issues and candidates.

    Far better to have a much lengthier series of two-person debates — a fantasy, of course.

  • Petorado said all that I would have said with one exception. In response to Ed Stephan’s comment about reverting back to the “smoke filled room.” It feels pretty much like we really never left the smoke filled room. The only difference is that the media is now part of the equation, and the “players” pretend to give the great unwashed access to the process. We are handed front runners two years before the election and practically defied to prove the CW wrong. I truly feel that the incessant replaying of the “Dean Scream” was an effort by the Smoke Filled Coalition to to assure it continued to hold its sway on the process. They sought to bury Dean, and they mischaracterized his “scream” and his politics to do so. The Smoke Filled Coalition has already decided upon the variations of the race they wish to back, fund, and cover. That is a lot to overcome.

  • Far better to have a much lengthier series of two-person debates — a fantasy, of course.

    “The Lincoln-Douglas debates were a series of seven, each with this format: one candidate spoke for an hour, then the other candidate spoke for an hour and a half, and then the first candidate was allowed a half hour “rejoinder.” The candidates alternated speakng first. As the incumbent Douglas spoke first four of the debates.”

    Really, the insurmountable problem with the current system is that there isn’t enough time, in particular, not enough time for the questioners to say “enough boilerplate, now answer the question I asked you”. Debaters know this and don’t even pretend to answer the question any more. What I’d really like to see is the debaters allowed to ask questions of one another, with the moderator judging as to whether the question was answered. Hah!

  • Having “second-tier” candidates participate in public forums is the only means by which they can escape the second tier. Though I don’t anticipate supporting either of them, I thought both Dodd and Biden acquitted themselves well the other night; Gravel, though he’s not my cup of tea, stood out as well and IMO contributed to the discussion, and I want to see more of him.

  • TuiMel (#15), I don’t that we’re saying anything different. In my view (and remembered experience, I hope not through overly rose-colored glasses) the old smoke-filled room contained political pros, grubby guys and gals who had been in the background of politics of their lives — ward healers, envelope stuffers, idea people, interest- and language- group representatives, labor organizers, borderline Hatch Act violators, political writers — people who cared about politics and knew their stuff and often died early due to lung cancer and cirrhotic livers. Fund-rasing was almost an afterthought for those pre-TeeVee political devotees.

    Now, no matter which party, fund-raising is so far out front that nothing else matters, and that makes huge corporations decisive in our democratic selection processes. The media people, in the world of corporate TeeVee, have no independent power and are merely panting lapdogs, the kind Frank Rich wrote about so well in today’s NY Times. Political conventions in the TeeVee era are mere shadows of what they once were. They’re scripted down to the very costly slick-advertising minute and nowhere near as much fun. And electronic campaigns — endlessly repeated soundbites, focus-group-approved ads, coiffed bubble-head “pundits”, robotically placed calls into your living room — are a real pain in the ass except for those who make big money off them.

    In San Francisco of the late ’50s and early ’60s, it’s true the Burton machine wasn’t as democratic as it pretended to be. They weren’t as bloody as the Medicis, but they operated in the same cut-throat spirit. They weren’t “nice”. Still it’s amazing how many “little people” got listened to, responded to. It’s amazing how little influence the corporations and TeeVee had. On a personal level It’s still amazing to me that a (temporary) college drop-out and political novice like me could be paid a “living wage” to manage a state legislative campaign, with my princely stipend ($200/mo) from the Burton clan being laundered through the American Friends Service Committee. I have no idea what our campaign budget was or where it came from. It didn’t amount to much. And that’s the point: I think society was better served by those arrangements than it is by today’s enormous budgets and powerful corporations.

  • If you tell one person that they cannot participate in the process, then you become nothing more than the policy people who prevent people from attending “presidential” functions on public property.

    If you “decide” for someone that they should not participate in the process, then you become a “mini-me” to the deciderer who currently occupies the People’s House.

    One Bu$hylvania brat is enough, if you please….

  • Regarding this:

    Far better to have a much lengthier series of two-person debates — a fantasy, of course.

    Imagine Obama and Hillary facing off mano a mujer.
    Why, they’d be positively at each other throats to claim the center of the road as their own. I agree, it’d be fascinating teevee for bovines, ovines and the procine…

    Regarding this:

    “Gravel, though he’s not my cup of tea, stood out as well and IMO contributed to the discussion, and I want to see more of him.”

    To quote Gravel:

    Cloture vote… Let the American people see clearly every day whose keeping this war going and who is not…

    No I don’t think so…
    Can’t have that sort of candor in a National debate.
    Trust me… the powers that be want to silence this guy with a thud.

    I mean really:
    Do our moos and baas and oinks really need to have someone shout this sort of stuff at them:

    You know what’s worse than soldiers dying in vain? Having more soldiers die in vain.

    That sort of truth is more than ma and pa can stomach.

    I will be surpised as hell to see Gravel included in any more debates. Nope, that guy upsets the Animal Farm too much…

  • We need more discussion and less talking points. I think that a hour long discussion with 2 or 3 candidates in a web based forum would be much more useful for the majority of folks that read this site and sites like it.

    My 2 cents.

  • Well, one thing this debate did was give me a chance to see Kucinich’s (new?) wife (Elizabeth?). Now, that was a scary image (statuesque Red Head next to nerdish Hair Gel).

    I thought the format was rather good for the number of candidates. I don’t think Gravel did himself any good whining about the number of questions he got.

    I thought Hilary did well.

    Barack did not impress.

    Bill R could have talked a little slower and avoided some bobled answers.

    Dodd and Biden, eh!

    Edwards, definately could have done better.

    Since we CAN have a format that can handle the number of candidates and give the viewer at least something to take away about each one of them, I think it’s okay to have them all there.

    I’m wondering if the Republican’ts, in my (doubtlessly prejudiced) determination, will be able to match the quality the Democrats displayed on Thursday.

  • Hi Ed,
    Thanks for the additional comments. I am sorry to say I have no experience with the grass roots politics that fed the “old style” conventions. One thing seems certain, the infusions of HUGE amounts of money into the process seems to leave no one without a conflict of interest when it comes to making -not simply a living wage – but what can be a personal fortune from endless political campaigns. It makes me wish we had public financing of campaigns. I know that is a pipe dream because too many people would have to step off the gravy train. And, the cynic in me thinks that a system of public financing would be subverted, too. All in all, the process is less than satisfying.

  • How about a round robin?

    Guaranteed you’d get to see all the match-ups you’d like to see and what could be fairer to the little guys? Everybody gets their shot at the front runners, mano a mano.

  • The old-style smoke-filled room way of choosing candidates was an incredibly corrupt, ruthless, undemocratic, unfair and shameful way to find good candidates.

    I want it back!

    Regarding TV debates, get rid of them. Run a documentary on the U. S. Constitution instead. Or an Adam Sandler fart movie, for that matter.

  • Carpetbagger – I think the commenters are near unanimous in support of the ‘more the merrier’ approach. So that settles that.

  • petorado had it right.

    In a limited participation debate, you get a lot more answers; but they aren’t worth listening to and too often ignore the questions asked. Opponents don’t cal them on it for fearing teh appearance of aggression so they dodge their own question, tit-for-tat.

    The early debates are the only ones worth listening to. Those are the debates where fresh ideas are introduced and adopted by the polished snake-oil salesmen that excel at fundraising and end up winning straw polls due to name recognition paid for with advertising paid for with the money they get from lawyers and pharma companies.

    Free two hour infomercials are all the mini-debates are without Gravel, Richardson, and Dodds to offer plain talk that forces the “professional”, polished politicians to occasionally offer up a comment of substance.

    People need to have a chance to find out they had other choices beyond Obama and Clinton. When they vote for the top guns through ignorance, let it be because they didn’t take the trouble to watch the early debates, not because there were no debates where there were other choices.

  • Comments are closed.