Sunday discussion group: What are America’s obligations with respect to Iraq?

Guest Post by Michael J.W. Stickings

I hope Steve doesn’t mind, but I thought I’d get a discussion going today.

Basically, the question is this: What to do about Iraq? I know, that’s the big question that we’ve all been thinking about, but if you’re like me you’re still wrestling with the specifics. Should the U.S. withdraw? If so, when? And should the U.S. withdraw all of its troops, or should some remain? How “phased” should a withdrawal be? If some troops remain, to what end and for how long? Is there any possibility of “success” in Iraq? Not success according to Bush and the architects of the war, which is likely impossible, but some more realistic definition of success that is still within reach?

I could go on with all sorts of related questions, but you get the point.

I was prompted to begin this discussion by an editorial in The New Republic on the question of obligation: “America’s role in creating this Mesopotamian hell does not diminish our moral obligations,” the editors claim. “It increases them.”

So, what do you all think? Feel free to take the discussion in any direction you like, but try to focus at least in part on the question of obligation. I’ve linked to the TNR editorial above, but as it’s by subscription only I’ve also posted it in its entirety below the fold. You may not care for TNR, but I recommend it. And, at the risk of facing harsh criticism, let me say that I’m generally sympathetic to the editors’ view.

I look forward to your comments.

Obligations
by the Editors [of The New Republic]

All the study groups, all the Council on Foreign Relations white papers, and all the magazine symposia in the world won’t change the equation: There is no policy for Iraq that will provide moral and strategic satisfaction and no reason to believe that we might achieve something that could be plausibly described as victory. The coming debate over timetables and troop levels will likely generate much anger, shattering postelection illusions of bipartisanship and provoking intra-party squabbles. But, in the end, this struggle will be over the difference between a largely intolerable outcome and a completely intolerable one.

This magazine has long advocated deploying U.S. power to halt the mass slaughter of innocents. Saddam Hussein distinguished himself at the mass slaughter of innocents: About this, there can be no dispute. Yet, in this case, we supported an invasion that has led to the same savage result. Without an occupying power–and, perhaps, with one–Iraq could soon witness refugee crises, the sectarian mêlée spilling into neighboring countries, Al Qaeda bases sprouting across the Sunni Triangle, and massacres still greater than those that have already transpired.

America’s role in creating this Mesopotamian hell does not diminish our moral obligations. It increases them. Even an arch-realist like Colin Powell understood that when we broke it, we owned it. And, before we throw up our hands and enjoy the catharsis of walking away, we must exhaust every attempt to minimize further nightmares.

While the Republican defeat on November 7 may have politically foreclosed the possibility of sending more troops to Iraq, it was never clear where those troops would come from anyway. And, though it closed off one option, the election has also created new, if limited, possibilities. It sent an important message to Iraq’s elite: The U.S. presence in Iraq will not last long. Perhaps this new political reality will serve as shock therapy, scaring Iraq’s warring factions into negotiations that can prevent the worst sectarian warfare. But perhaps not.

More importantly, the elections may terrify the Bush administration into a new course. While the administration’s defenders claim that it has exhausted diplomatic possibilities, this is true only in the sense that it has conducted grudging and occasional conversations with important regional players. But diplomacy is not just a cozy exercise in endless speech acts. It, too, must be brutal: It must include threats and promises, alliances and coalitions–with the threat of being left out. A new campaign should lay the groundwork for agreements prior to the calling of a peace conference that would include Iraq’s parties and its neighbors, as well as the United States, the European Union, and Russia. What kind of agreement could be worked out? Separate states, a loose federation, a unified government? That’s not clear–and won’t be until the parties involved make their wishes known and negotiations begin. After all, Iraq was artificially created by the British after World War I. Its citizens may not be able to come together except through the imposition of a dictatorship. It may be that a federation is more appropriate, as it has been in the Balkans.

Many Democrats have embraced a proposal called “phased redeployment,” a politically expedient way of saying immediate withdrawal. Their proposal, which calls for departures beginning in four to six months, doesn’t allow the time and space for the arduous work that a political settlement requires–the kind of agreement that will ultimately allow us to leave with the least damage to the Iraqi people and our own interests. Proponents of “redeployment” might argue that the president will enact any new course as ineptly as he did before–a very reasonable fear. But, having achieved new majorities, the Democrats must use their oversight capability to ensure that this does not happen. This can no longer be a one-party war.

At this point, it seems almost beside the point to say this: The New Republic deeply regrets its early support for this war. The past three years have complicated our idealism and reminded us of the limits of American power and our own wisdom. But, as we pore over the lessons of this misadventure, we do not conclude that our past misjudgments warrant a rush into the cold arms of “realism.” Realism, yes; but not “realism.” American power may not be capable of transforming ancient cultures or deep hatreds, but that fact does not absolve us of the duty to conduct a foreign policy that takes its moral obligations seriously. As we attempt to undo the damage from a war that we never should have started, our moral obligations will not vanish, and neither will our strategic needs.

The root question is whether our very presence contributes to stability, or incites further instability. I imagine a compelling case could be made for either. Until there’s a clearer picture of that, it’s almost impossible to determine how to best serve our obligation to fix what we’ve broken.

In either case though, a lower US profile on the streets would probably be a good place to begin. Troops should be pulled back to protect the borders, and provide Iraqi security whatever tactical support they need. The new Iraq government is going to face a sink or swim moment sooner or later. We can’t protect them from that forever. The longer that government exists solely by the barrel of US troops, the less chance it has to survive without them.

  • I think we have an obligation that the Iraqis are rapidly relieving us of. They support insurgent attacks on our military personnel and they refuse to make the political concessions necessary to end their civil war. As such, our obligations are shrinking.

    We owe the Kurds, who have been steadfast, our protection particularly against the Turks and Iranians.

    We owe the Shites a chance, but no more.

    We owe the Sunnis practically nothing.

  • The presence of U.S. forces in Iraq is only contributing to instability there, rather than reducing it. We ought to withdraw ASAP, instead of setting up permanent bases there.

  • The ones who were for the war in the beginning are the same ones telling us about all the moral obligations we now have because of their ill-fated war. They’ve lost all credibility. We can ignore them.

    One reason for ending the war is to bring our boys home. Well, what appreciation will we get for that. Soldiers are mostly Republican and they scorn Democrats’ anti-war efforts. For the next 30 years they will swiftboat Dem candidates accusing them of cowardice in withdrawing from Iraq. So I say, let soldiers who want to resign from the military leave and promise never to join up again. That way they’ll have the rsponsibility for personally quitting. None of this “they wouldn’t let us win” shit.

    For the rest we should stay the course. Let the Dems investigate and jail the war profiteers, jail the torture enablers, jail the tarnishers of the constitution. Then when we get a Dem president and it is our problem withdraw from Iraq. Then let it be a foreign diplomacy issue.

    The people who predict disaster in Iraq if we (our soldiers) leave are the ones that made so many previous lousy predictions. Nobody knows what will happen if we leave, but it’s pretty easy to predict what will happen if we stay. And it ain’t good.

  • This is the hardest question of all, but I think the “Vietnam analogy” makes it even harder. There we had a war between two sides, we backed one, the other won, and we were chased out. But we WON the Iraq War, and then thouroughly screwed up the PEACE and the Reconstruction of the country. (To understand my point, imagine that the US decided to, formally, surrender. Who would they surrender TO?)

    What is going on there is a multi-level anarchy, with many different factions fighting each other, the central government, and all of them hating us. But we aren’t, for the most part, staging any offensive actions (in the military sense, a lot of what we are doing is plenty offensive). We are trying to figure out a way to settle everything down so we can get out, but we can’t because we have killed our own credibility.

    (I believe that we MIGHT have had a better time of it if we had insisted on Iraqis placing one provison in their constitution, that no party could be represented in Parliament if more than 50% of the representation was composed of one of the three main groups, Non-Kurdish Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds. This would have forced the groups to work together, it would have been a ‘hard-sell,’ but it might have actually worked. But since Bush seems to have thought that the difference between the Sunnis and Shiites was about like the difference between Methodists and Baptists, and had no idea of the history of the two groups, we missed that opportunity.)

    And one of our biggest blunders was the mess we made of reconstructing the country, of rebilding the infrastructure.

    I have a few off-the-top of my head suggestions, but given the vagaries of word press, I am going to put them in a separate post.

  • I’ve said this elsewhere. Iraq is the main symptom of a problem in America and to limit the “what are we going to do?” question to only Iraq is to insure unending failure.

    First, yes, we engage Syria, Turkey and Iran in a regional discussion, Saudi and Israel may not be a bad idea either because they were the anciliary reasons we went in. EVERYTING is on the table.

    We insist on peace in Baghdad and ask the militias to maintain order, which we can encourage by paying them off (remember we have NO good options anymore. Next we utterly foreswear any further maintenance of bases anywhere in the middle east, well maybe in whatever sheikdoms still like us, but small forces for monitoring conflicts and coordination genuine muliti-national responses.

    NEXT we promise full and public national reconciliation hearings, as in S. Africa over aparthied, over how and why the nation went to war against a country which offered no genuine threat. Those who do not co-operate with reconciliation hearings are liable to be bound for war crimes investigations, as are those actors whose main responsibility for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people is so great that reconciliation would be incomplete without a trial.

    Still with me? We tear down Gitmo, turn it into a park and present it to the Cuban people as a condolance gift following the death of Fidel Castro.

    There are anciliary details, but you get my drift. Will it stop the killing in Iraq? Maybe shorten it when people realize that the United States has, again, ushered in a new order in the world, one which renounces war and includes a political philosophy of contrition and co-operation.

    You may say I’m a dreamer…

  • I agree that we have an obligation to the people of Iraq. I have said this from day one. Unfortunately, we find ourselves in a position that no matter what we do there will be continuing suffering for those people.

    If we stay we will only see more of the same, because we do not have the manpower to squelch the insurgency. However, it is possible that absent our troops to maintain at least some order the intensity of the insurgency would increase in the short run. On the other hand, in the medium to long run it is possible that removing our troops will eliminate at least one motivating factor of the insurgency. But it would leave Iraq without any controlling authority, hence it is hard to see that the situation would stabilize spontaneously in the foreseeable future.

    It may be beyond our ability to salvage this situation. However, it shouldn’t be beyond our ability to bring those responsible for it to justice. My suggestion is: withdraw our troops to Kuwait; promise the Iraqi’s that once Democrats control the White House we will turn Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, et. al. over to the Hague to be tried as a war criminals;hold our breath; and wait to see what happens.

  • Sorry if I didn’t bother to read the TNR excerpt – those guys have as much credibility with me as, say, the Weekly Standard does.

    I think the United States needs to put it’s efforts behind bring UN peacekeepers in, in a major way – perhaps even contributing troops to the UN force – but plainly making it a UN, not a US operation. Put a serious good faith effort into bringing the UN in – and if the rest of the world won’t go along, then they’ll at least then will be as morally culpable for any disaster that befalls Iraq after we withdraw as we will be.

  • Okay, some suggestions. First, we should commit a really large amount of money to reconstruction, only with safeguards in place so that we’d actually finish what we started, without ripping off the projects — no Halliburton influence, PLEASE — and should attempt to hire as many Iraqis as possible in these efforts.

    We should announce to the government that we were going to withdraw all protection for them in a few months, that we would no longer be involved in offensive actions, peace-keeping between the factions, or police work. At the same time we should offer — at our expense, not the governments — to keep a certain number of people there to serve as trainers and instructors, only making sure we don’t permit them to do anything more.

    We should also keep a fairly substantial number of troops there with ONE function, to serve as ‘security guards’ on the reconstruction projects. They would be permitted to act defensively, to establish specific checkpoints around the projects to protect against suicide bombings and kidnappings, and would be permitted to gather intelligence, but only against the people actually making physical attacks. We would not even permit them to pursue them, merely to turn over such intelligence reports to the Iraqi police and military.

    We should remain absolutely neutral between the various factions, but should offer some protection to any legitimately established government, but again, purely defensively. (Yes, it is possible to argue that one group is worse than the others, but that isn’t our job and shouldn’t be.)

    And we should support attempts to set up production companies and other industry that would help broaden the economy and lessen the Iraqis dependence on selling oil as their only important income. (Perhaps we could give tarrif breaks on Iraqi products, even encourage American countries to establish factories there if the government can give them suitable security — and we should pressure them to do so as a major priority.)

    None of these ideas are ideal, some would violate ‘liberal purity’ but they might just work.

  • Until we have a better understanding of why we are there, it will be difficult to formulate an exit strategy. If our pupose was to eliminate Saddam Hussein then it is mission long ago accomplished and we should begin immediate troop reductions. If our purpose was to colonize Iraq and control its resources then we need to relinquish those claims and allow Iraq to negotiate its own deals with foreign powers. Either way our ultimate goal must be the removal of all our troops and contractors and to give up any claims we have made of Iraqi resources.

    To accomplish these goals we should have middle east experts involved in these discussions and remove those with strong partisan interests such as the ISG. We need to involve neighboring countries and countries with interest in Iraq’s oil reserves. If it means a new source of oil maybe countries like China would be willing to send troops to the area to help stabalize the country.

    I have never agreed with Powell’s you break it you fix it analogy. It is a way of rationalizing our continued presence in Iraq. We do not own Iraq and it is really up to the Iraqis to decide what is to become of their country.

  • Our first moral obligation is to admit we were wrong and we screwed up. It’s not going to happen, so why even discuss “moral obligations”?

    If we were in the business of meeting our moral obligations, we would then apologize and commit as much money to rebuilding Iraq as we have to destroying it for the last 15 years. Also, not going to happen.

    We would grovel to the UN, our allies and Iraq’s neighbors to pitch in to save and stabilize the country. Again, not going to happen.

    Then, maybe, some war crimes trials.

    Talk of moral obligations in a situation like we have caused in Iraq is a non-starter. We had a moral obligation not to invade their country. The only moral thing we are likely to ever do is leave.

  • If someone came into my house to eradicate cockroaches and proceeded to poison my pets in the process, I think it would behoove them to get out of my house instead of going on about any moral obligations requiring them to stay.

  • I have Frank Rich’s newest up. I don’t totally agree with everything he says. It’s undeniable that many Democrats got in because of our dissatisfaction with Bush and Iraq and whether or not he wants to admit it, many of these new Democrats are closer to the center than they are to the left.

  • As nauseous as it makes me feel to admit it, Kissinger’s most recent comments have a great deal of truth to them. The myopic lack of foresight and planning followed by the dismantling of the Iraqi armed were the precursors to this dilemma. The current challenge that Kissinger pointed out was that simply withdrawing would invite other regional players to crash the party and when you have Iran moving from one side and Syria from the other supporting their various factions, well then the atwhole region begins to shift in ways that could turn out to be far worse than internal Iraqi strife.

    I don’t necessarily think that “You broke it, you fix it” should be applied as a general truth, but writing as a non-American, I do feel that your country has a certain obligation and responsibility to not abandon those poor people in this time of trouble. On the other hand, “staying the course” is sheer madness. History will judge the main players, and it is happening quickly, as we see the neo-cons jumping ship, but hopefully history will show that Iraq was saved by engaging it’s neighbours and ensuring that her borders remained secure. It’s either that or let the country divide itself into the segments that actually exist today.

    Didn’t anyone in the Bush administration say “Um, Mr. President. Have you heard of Yugoslavia? As soon as Tito was gone, the place fell apart. Are you sure we should get rid of the one guy holding it all together?”

  • “We might achieve something that could be plausibly described as victory.” – TNR

    Here is our biggest problem: our future presence in Iraq is not about us and our desire to notch one in the win column, it needs to be about what’s best for the Iraqi people. Drop the “we can still win this” crap and focus on what will bring peace to that nation and region. This won’t happen until W’s ego gets the f*%k out of the way.

    Second, we need to bring regional players into the mix. We need to have Sunni nations, most likely Saudi Arabi, and Shiite nations, obviously Iran, to get involved so the various sects can decide to quit killing each other. The U.S. will have to have some continued presence in the country to act as watchdog. Again, W’s axis of evil BS will have to take a back seat to pragmatism, since the Bush Admnistrations’s axis of ego is the biggest impediment to a lasting peace.

    The ball isn’t in the Pentagon’s court, it’s squarely in Condi’s lap at Dept. of State (God help us!) Diplomacy will stitch things back together, not more bullets. More dead people will only deepen divisions. We will need to bring in the adults who have fled the Bush Adminstration’s petty politics like Iraqi administrators have been fleeing the county. The Baker Commission will have to force W to assemble a team of real diplomats and not idealogues. Of course that happening conjures up images of snowballs in hell.

    The U.S will need to make promises to the region for any of the other states to get involved. We won’t stay forever. We admit we overstepped our bounds. We are commited to finding a peaceful solution to the Israeli-Palestine conflict and we will reconstruct Iraq to a reasonable level utlity.

  • Nobody mentions the 800 lb gorrilla, Saudi Arabia. We ain’t going anywhere until they build the

    Work on Iraq Border Fence Starts in 2007
    P.K. Abdul Ghafour, Arab News

    JEDDAH, 15 November 2006 — Saudi Arabia will begin building next year a security fence along its 900-km border with Iraq in order to prevent terrorists from sneaking into the country, Interior Minister Prince Naif announced yesterday. He said the project would cost SR45 billion ($12 billion).

    These dudes control the situation from the sidelines because of the control the Sunni Arabs in this nation have on the world’s oil supply. These guys are the “godfather!”

  • There really are no good options, but the first thing to do is to stop paying the slightest attention to the over-educated, under-intelligent,otherwise-unemployable wannabe-halfwits at The New Republican. Those failed wannabe-New York “intellectuals” would have to get a whole lot smarter to be dumb enough to qualify as NeoCons and work at the Weekly Standard. How Democrats think they are people to listen to is beyond me. Politics in America would be well-served were Martin Peretz and Peter Beinart to be found face down in an alley somewhere, having bled out from large-caliber exit wounds.

    Whatever happens, I sincerely hope that the Imperial Legionairres have had their fingers burned and their hands slapped badly enough that they keep the Powell Doctrine in mind and come to understand that when you make General, you owe a responsibility to those you command that’s more important than your next promotion, and you follow the example of General Erik Shinseki, in speaking truth to power at cost of career when necessary. Given the mindset of the majority of the lifer morons in the American officer corps, I am not holding my breath that the latter happen, but I think even they are smart enough to figure out that Colin Powell drew the right conclusions from Vietnam, and that those conclusions need to be written in stone as a result of Iraq.

    I do want the Empire to realize it was defeated, because it’s the only way we can keep them from trying again for another 30 years (I say 30 years because by then those who learned the lesson will be gone and the new idiots will have to re-learn it somewhere if the Empire still exists, since that’s the nature of Empires). The best thing of course would be to destroy the Empire from within and restore the Old Republic, but I doubt that will happen today any more than it could have happened when Claudius ruled Rome.

    Right now, there is no consensus about what to do regarding the war, and if the major action that is necessary is undertakenb before there is such a consensus, we are doomed to a future in which the Right can wave the bloody shirt of “the stab in the back” with enough of the public being unaware of the truth that they can be believed by enough of the voters to constitute a continuing threat. We need hearings on the phony evidence, the phony intelligence and the phony politics that led us to invade Poland, er, I mean Iraq, in the beginning. The credibility of Cheney and the NeoCons and their world view needs to be completely destroyed so far as American politics are concerned (or at least limited to that 20% dumb enough to be righties who never “get it”), and this can happen with hearings.

    As regards the military thinking they got no support from Democrats, these hearings should definitely involve public information on how BushCo refused to listen to the military leadership, refused to give them what they needed, refused to support the troops (not just body armor but the tear-down of postwar care, etc.), and in general overall made the job of the military not only more difficult but actually impossible. This should be coupled with actions to undo all that – actual support of the troops as regards the equipment they really need, the backing they really need, the care they really need afterwards, etc. The military can be ‘bought off” by doing the right thing here.

    Once the groundwork has been laid here in the heart of the Empire to lay the blame where it belongs, we can get out, and give the Iraqis what we would have spent continuing to blow things up and kill people, so they can finally get the lights on 24 hours a day, among other things. We don’t need to rebuild Iraq, we just need to give them the money to do so. It’s called “reparations.”

    And we need to whack the right so hard that the one wing retreats to rolling in the sawdust in their revival tents, and the other wing retreats to the Okeefenokee and gets back under their rocks

  • We owe Iraq and the region strictly nothing. Get the hell out of it and let chaos run its course.

    What we owe is to our country : complete independence for ourselves and our allies from whatever happens in this benighted place. Get rid of the oil addiction. Now.

  • The time to consider our obligation to the Iraqi people was before we invaded, and we failed miserably. Thanks to ideological arrogance and propaganda designed to appeal to nationalistic sentiments, we failed to acknowledge the implications of our actions before we took them. In other words, we failed the moment we started, by unleashing forces we had no ability to control.

    At this point, given that some factions within Iraq are determined to conduct their great national debate through violence and others seem unable or unwilling to stop it even with our help, there is little we can do beyond making sure that all Iraqis understand the grave implications of the course they are pursuing. We can also, as many have noted above, try to convince regional powers that they have a stake in the outcome in Iraq and need to step up if only for their own interests.

    It is one thing to be angry at America, or the British, or Sadaam for creating the environment in which the current violence is happening, but Iraqis must own up to the fact that the violence itself is not our doing. Aside from those external forces who are promoting anarchy to advance their own agendas, by far the largest source of violence appears to be Iraqis, unable to settle their differences through other means, fighting each other.

    That said, Lance’s far more concise assessment in #2 is worth another read.

  • As petarado says, we should stop thinking about using the military to fulfill our obligation to Iraqi people. There are other means and diplomacy certain should be tried as way of stabilizing Iraq. Our obligation to Iraq extends beyond stablization. We must make amends for the damage which has been done.

    To this end, I think it would behoove us to set up an escrow fund for Iraq reconstruction along with an independent and international Iraq reconstruction authority. The authority should, of course, have transparent bidding and auditing procedures. The authority would be charged with funding the rebuilding of Iraq’s infrastructure once a stable government is in place. While there would be no getting around using US tax dollars for this fund, some of the money could come from companies that were found to have profiteered in Iraq.

    The knowledge that once Iraq has a fully functioning government that they will be able to rebuild may be help to serve as an incentive to establish such a government.

  • I find quite a few of the posts above troubling. I’m sorry, but in a democratically elected government, we all have an ownership stake in our pet monkey.

    If the monkey gets in a person’s house and wreaks havoc, we owe financial restitution. If the monkey rapes and kills the oldest daughter, we are responsible regardless of rather the girl believed we are Satan’s minions or not.

    The funny part is that it is now all down to idiotic posturing. We cannot military enforce basic stability. There is no option to send 50,000 or 100,000 more troops. Sooner or later, we are going to have to leave. And the results will inevitably be much worse than if we had left immediately after toppling Sadam, or had we not invaded at all.

    It is also irrelevant rather we feel responsible or not. We are going to pay, and pay, and pay, and pay rather we feel ligitamate remorse or not. All in all, it would probably be cheaper to put some neoconservatives and war profiteers on trial in Iraq, publicly hang them with Saddam, then give everyone in the country a remorseful greeting card and a $1000 check – along with best wishes in building a country.

    But we’ll almost certainly just shove another couple trillion onto our childrens’ children instead…

    -jjf

  • Dale writes:
    “The ones who were for the war in the beginning are the same ones telling us about all the moral obligations we now have because of their ill-fated war. They’ve lost all credibility. We can ignore them.”

    I agree with all but the last line. I don’t think we should ignore them. I think that we should send them over to Iraq. “Draft” them if you will so then can tell the Iraqis and the US military about their moral obligations. Make them the rear guard as the US withdraws its forces from Mess’o potamia then forget to retrieve them.

    As my mom used to tell me when I spilt milk. “You made the mess, you clean it up.”

  • Make them the rear guard as the US withdraws its forces from Mess’o potamia then forget to retrieve them.
    comment by Former Dan

    LOL on Mess o potamia.

    I like your idea but as Foley and Haggard show, the wingnuts arent’ that good at rear guarding either.

  • There is no meaningful sense in which we “owe” other countries any military support. When the Commander in Chief chooses to make a commitment and is supported by Congress (as in both Vietnam and Iraq), it is not a commitment for all time. Indeed in both the false claim of the Tonkin Gulf incident and the false claim of WMD the condition precedent to the commitment utterly nullifies any moral claim by any party in the US or abroad. We need to preserve the safety of our troops as they withdraw. We need to begin that withdrawal immediately. No military victory is possible; since we don’t “negotiate” with terrorists there is no way to negotiate any peaceful resolution; no division of the country is possible. There is no way out except the door.

  • Mmm. My post must have been tasty because WP ate it.

    First, we need to acknowledge that people, not a geo-political construct, have been harmed and killed by US actions. I’m trying to put myself in the place of a citizen of Iraq who understands 1. The invasion was caused by the US president. 2. No matter what the US soldiers do (go away or die) it won’t make my life better. 3. The US soldiers didn’t start this crap and they can’t end it. 4. Of course I’m pissed as hell and would like the power back on thank you very much. Given that I know these things, what would do I want from the US?

    1. Try the the responsible parties (ShrubCo) as war criminals.
    2. Strip the members of ShrubCo of all their assets, put the money into a fund managed by the UN that will go to aid for the citizens of Iraq (geo-political constructs do not bleed).
    3. A tax (based on income, service members exempted) that will go towards continued reconstruction efforts and humanitarian aid. Bush wanted civilians to think “sacrifice” for this war meant $1.50 for a magnetic ribbon and the effort of affixing it to their car. We need to learn war ain’t cheap and it affects everyone or we’ll be having this discussion again.
    4. Laws that make it as difficult as possible for the next chicken-hearted war mongering president to lie his way to infamy.
    5. A full apology from the president to the people of Iraq. To drift in to psychobabble: They need to hear him take responsiblity for the lies and the destruction. So do we for that matter.

    I know this is all very symbolic but that’s about all we’ve got left. As it is ShrubCo is ready to shrug, dump the blame on the Democrats and skip off laughing.

    Several people have already touched on the importance of getting the neighbors involved so: A full apology from the Chimperor and his cronies to Iran and Syria for all the sabre rattling, and keep those idiots locked up in a closet during any negotiations. They need to keep chewing on that large dish of crow and feet they’ve cooked up for themselves.

    On the theme of showing that we as citizens and a nation really are sorry for the behaviour of “our pet monkey” and don’t want this to happen again:

    Bring back the draft, include women and expand it to include people up to the age of 42 (the age requested by the Pentagon for recruitment cut off) with no deferments. Am I crazy? What took you so long to notice? But again, it sends a message: “If we embroil a group of foreign civilians in a war a lot of our civilians will be in the same boat.” More importanly it puts a lot more goolies in the vise. People are selfish beasts and the threat of being shot or even having their lives disrupted by basic training will make them less gung-ho about cheering the next idiot as he announces we’re at war.

  • While it’s nice you’re trying to have a rational discussion of this TNR piece, the real problem lies in the fact these people are as disingenuous as they are delusional. Trying to discuss it rationally is a little like arguing about which aspects of Alice in Wonderland best apply to American foreign policy.

    Sure, they now regret supporting the war, but they can’t bring themselves to admit this war was doomed to fail in the first place. They say we can’t “win,” then try to nudge in the idea that some notion of “victory” is somehow possible. Of course, they can’t even define winning or victory. Not publicly, anyway.

    So they are stuck with trying to push the position of achieving the Least Depressing Loss. What on earth are these people smoking?

    In terms of all the strategic notions pushed in the press, this war was never, EVER, going to work. They even thought they could accomplish the impossible on the cheap, which has only assured our “victory” (whatever that means) would be all the more impossible and all the more bloody.

    To this day, Americans are well behind the 8-ball on the strategic disaster that is Iraq. The police, police commandos and Iraqi “military” are all working for their respective militias. We cannot either control or protect them. Nor can we stop the death squadds which we, intentionally or no, armed, equipped and gave them facilities to operate from in the Interior Minitstry. We can’t control them either. As for the government, it either does not exist, or is merely a front for Muqtada Sadr, depending on one’s veiwpoint. To call it a fucntioning national body, in any real sense, is a bald faced lie.

    In a sense, as Steve Gilliard rightly suggests, we’ve created a new Serbian Army and they will probably have their way whether we like it or not. They will turn their current death squad activiies into a larger anti-Sunni pogrom. Then, they will take on the Kurds.

    All this, and still people try to debate about whether to partition or not. We debate timetables or sudden withdrawl. We debate about a moral obligation, which very much exists, but we can do nothing about in a constructive sense. The best we can hope for is we pay them reperations later and that won’t even happen, any more than it did in Vietnam.

    The neocons and neoliberals can entertain their stupiid fantasies all they want and it won’t have any effect in Iraq or the outcome. We can entertain their silliness all we want but it won’t change a thing. These people talk about “winning” as if that’s somehow possible, but they can’t even define the word in the first place!

    Winning is the new Peace With Honor.

    What we have to start dealing with is the fact this is a moral and political abomination. It is also the biggest strategic failure in US history. We will be paying for this, in many, many ways for a long time. Our leaders have waged and lost two wars in five years and somehow this doesn’t even register with the neocon/neolib Beltway Kool Kids Klub.

    We should be thinking about how we are going to pay the bill and stop entertaining the delusions of people who have already proven themselves quite irrelevant, if not plainly insane.

  • Well said Orange.

    I’m against the draft but if we had one, the only one I would support would be one with absolutely no deferments for anyone over the age of 12. No isms. No ageism, classism, sexism or any other kind of ism. Cut off at age 42 exempts almost all the national politicians. And no alternative service. Rotate everyone into the war zone, sonny, granny and prisoners.

    Everyone is not as good as no one but it is fairer than just some.

  • Just a thought. Those who are against an abrupt withdrawal from Iraq. Didn’t seem bothered by the abruptness with which we entered Iraq.

  • Just a thought. Those who are against an abrupt withdrawal from Iraq. Didn’t seem bothered by the abruptness with which we entered Iraq.

    Tsk Dale, you are thinking like a law abiding citizen. Try thinking like a serial rapist. Of course you’d pull out abruptly to avoid leaving any evidence behind.

    I’m one of those wierdos who was beyond bothered (frothing mad?) by the invasion and now I’m beyond bothered by the idea that pulling the troops out will make it all better. I’m starting to hear this from the Bush Glee Club: “OK, we’ll just leave (and Bush is in no way responsible for this mess anyways and we’re not cutting and running, so there).” No discussion of what’s next beyond the parade for the returning soldiers.
    Not so fast. If someone says, get the soldiers out and do X, Y, Z for the Iraqi people, I’ll listen to that. Perhaps I’m just an accountablity freak. So be it, but I need a fix damn it!

    [T]he only one I would support would be one with absolutely no deferments for anyone over the age of 12.

    Headline: 90,000 American mall rats flee to Canada trying to clutch their iPods and Wiis while holding up their baggy pants.

    And unleashing grannies like my great-grandmother on the opposing force would ensure un-conditional surrender in 24 hours or less with minimal harm to civilians. Wow, the benefits are limitless…

  • When we left Vietnam abruptly we left a populace that was defenseless against an organized invading army with a country behind it. And millions died during the “re-education”.

    But in Iraq, we leave behind factions that are not helpless. They are organized and have a, er, “fighting chance” of reaching some parity and maybe even peace. Not much but that’s something.

  • As for commando grannies, we could have the first wheelchair accessible war, combat walkers, and tanks that lift their drivers out and to a standing position.

    And for the 12 year old puberty kids, I’m sure the Religious Reich would agree with me that if you’re old enough to bring someone into this world you’re old enough to take someone out.

    And, of course, the point is that the draft is discriminatory and undemocratic.

  • For all those who claim we owe nothing, perhaps a good first step would be to reshape the 200,000 to 700,000 dead as human beings in your mind.

    I have little doubt that had the democratically elected government of the United States suddenly invaded your homes, instilled a martial law of sorts, randomly started shooting your loved ones at checkpoints, allowed violent sects to roam free, and threw in some violent rapes and murder boot, you’d darn well feel ‘entitled’.

    In a nation were ‘want’ for many is a bloated stomach gurgling for another fast food burger, it can be hard to imagine just what we have unleashed in Iraq. But it is hard for me to imagine how anyone could claim to sincerely believe in traditional progressive ideals, yet feel no empathy and responsibility for the human suffering we have created.

    Then again, maybe the Bush concept of ;personal responsibilty; is more popular (and less partisan) than I would like…

    -jjf

  • I can’t stop laughing at the mental image of a tank grinding to a halt, gears whir and a fierce old lady clutching a machine gun (with FeatherLite trigger for arthritic hands) being lowered to the ground.

    And for the 12 year old puberty kids, I’m sure the Religious Reich would agree with me…

    Hah, one of the side benefits of a You’re All In Suckers draft would be watching the RRs leap into their own arseholes “Aaah! We can’t fight, we have to turn the other cheek!” Just please God don’t let me wind up in a unit with the likes of Dobson.

  • P.S. To Dale – perhaps the problem is that you are so busy arguing with Strawmen that you aren’t actually hearing us.

    I objected, strongly, to both the war in Iraq and in Afghanistan. I actually recall Vietnam first hand. But the same lessons that led me to believe that war would be a horrible mistake also tell me that there is some truth to the ‘China Shop’ analogy. All the chaos and misery is going on our national ‘credit card’, even after a speedy withdrawal.

    I’m sorry that the problem does not fit into simple answers, but pigeon holing everyone who does not 100% agree with you is just another popular GOP tactic that I would just assume die with their majority.

    -jjf

  • First we need to gain control of our government to stop further damage, then we must restore our national honor so we can
    econnect with the international community.
    Bush is proving that the greedy self interest of American corporate interests creates an unhealthy world.
    Iraq can be best approached collectively by the community of nations only after we have rid ourself of the optimistic maniac called Bush.
    We can’t sove any conflict while this opportunistic ganster is in charge.

    Pottery Barn rules: Our little kid of a president broke it, so we’re responsible for fixing it… but we’re going to need the world’s help.

  • I’m sorry that the problem does not fit into simple answers, but pigeon holing everyone who does not 100% agree with you is just another popular GOP tactic that I would just assume die with their majority.

    Dale? GOP?

    These concepts go together like BushBaby and Coherent Speech or Cheney and Honesty or Santorum and Minding one’s bloody business…

    Must go boggle.

  • P.S. To Dale – perhaps the problem is that you are so busy arguing with Strawmen that you aren’t actually hearing us.
    Comment by Fitz

    Well that’s a rude and simplistic way to characterize my statements. The fact is that it is mostly the pro-war people who are against a quick withdrawal. Being against withdrawing our troops is making the assumption that staying will accomplish anything worthwhile. And who will be in charge of this “responsible” lingering? The same incompetent people who got us into this. No one knows the effect withdrawing will have, just as they didn’t know the effect invading had. Withdrawing does not mean dropping responsibility for Iraq. It means taking responsibility in much the same way they should have taken responsible action other than war to begin with.

    The question is which is more responsible: leaving quickly or lingering. And lingering is, intentionally or not, buying into the Republican attitudes.Need another Friedman? Maybe a McCain?

  • Must go boggle.
    Comment by The Answer is Orange – Returns

    Thanks Orange, let’s go play Boggle. We’ll leave connect-the-dots and paint-by-the-numbers to the other kids.

  • Hah, one of the side benefits of a You’re All In Suckers draft would be watching the RRs leap into their own arseholes “Aaah! We can’t fight, we have to turn the other cheek!” Just please God don’t let me wind up in a unit with the likes of Dobson.
    Comment by The Answer is Orange – Returns

    🙂 there’ll be no Evangelicals in fox holes, just up their own holes. They’ll go from conscienceless enablers to conscientious objectors.

    Well sure Dobson if you think terrorists should be spanked, you go right on ahead. Just don’t leave the child rearing to Foley.

  • My statement, “Those who are against an abrupt withdrawal from Iraq. Didn’t seem bothered by the abruptness with which we entered Iraq.” was aimed at the wingnuts who don’t want to leave, not at those who were against the war and now seek responsible action by our government. It suffered from the conciseness.

    I recognize that every statement about politics has caveats and ifs ands and buts. I realize that opinion is not fact. But writing,

    “many, but not all, of those who are against abrupt withdrawal (and I realize abrupt can be interpreted many ways) didn’t seem to be against abrupt entry although many were against both and with the best intentions and of course investigation and adjudication must go on for those responsible and attempts at peace and reparations to the Iraqi people are in order etc etc”

    is just too much legalese so I apologize to Fitz, Orange and anyone else who thought I was talking about them.
    Otherwise I’m totally right!!! 🙂

  • Pardon my bluntness, please….

    “I” did not break Iraq. My wife did not break Iraq. Neither did my eight-something son, my six-something daughter, or my twenty-month-something daughter.

    We did not invade iraq; we did not support the flipped-out idiots who did support such a move; we never even voted for them.

    This is NOT about “majority rules;” it is NOT about representative government.

    It is about a collection of profiteers who saw an opportunity, and used a collection of lies and cherry-picked disconnective phraseologies to take this country into a war of aggression.

    If America wants out of this war, then it is NOT—I repeat, NOT— the responsibility of the American People to “fix” anything.

    It is the responsibility of the war criminal who currently occupies a residence on Pennsylvania Avenue, his co-conspirator who occupies another such residence, their cronies, collaborators, senior underlings, and war-profiteering friends.

    If America wants out of this war, then the above collection of conspirators should forthwith be surrendered up to the Hague…

    …and let Justice be done to them.

    But it is not my family’s job to “fix” this political clusterf***. It’s bad enough that I’m going to be paying taxes for the next twenty-some lifetimes, just to cover the cost of “mr. bush’s war….”

  • For all those who think there’s something to be done by us in Iraq, have a big bite of a Reality Sandwich. This report comes from a GI antiwar newsletter I subscribe to that is run by Vietnam Vets who created the “Vietnam GI” antiwar newspaper back in the day.

    Face it: Humpty-Dumpty was pushed off the wall, and all King George’s NeoCons and all the New Republic(an) Morons can’t put Humpty-Dumpty back together again.

    Inspiring Her Iraqi and American Charges Has Become Increasingly Difficult – Captain Bagley Barred Her Troops From Foot Patrols In The Most Violent Neighborhoods And Eliminated All Nonessential Travel
    November 19, 2006 By Kirk Semple, New York Times, [Excerpt]

    Capt. Stephanie A. Bagley and the military police company she commands arrived in Iraq in December 2005 brimming with optimism about taking on one of the most urgent tasks in Iraq: building a new police force.

    Now, as the 21st Military Police Company approaches the end of a deployment marked by small victories and enormous disappointments, Captain Bagley is focused on a more modest goal.

    “I just want to get everyone home,” she said. In the past several weeks, Captain Bagley, 30, barred her troops from foot patrols in the most violent neighborhoods and eliminated all nonessential travel. “I’m just not willing to lose another soldier,” she said.

    The local police force in her region, as in much of Iraq, remains undertrained, poorly equipped and unable to stand up to the rigors of this conflict. Casualties are high, morale is low and many police officers do not show up for work.

    Some of her soldiers had gone to the Baya Local Police Station, one of 18 local stations in the troubled southern outskirts of Baghdad where her unit has worked this year. They were picking up a contingent of Iraqi policemen for a daily patrol of Dora, an especially violent neighborhoods here in the capital.

    On these patrols, the Americans, swaddled in Kevlar from head to hips, travel in Humvees and other armored vehicles. The Iraqis, wearing only bulletproof vests, ride in soft-skinned pickup trucks and S.U.V.’s, the only vehicles they have.

    The Iraqi policemen begged the Americans not to make them go out.

    They peeled off their clothes to reveal shrapnel scars from past attacks. They tugged the armored plates from their Kevlar vests and told the Americans they were faulty. They said they had no fuel for their vehicles. They disappeared on indefinite errands elsewhere in the compound. They
    said they would not patrol if it meant passing a trash pile, a common hiding place for bombs.

    The Iraqis eventually gave up and climbed into two S.U.V.’s with shattered windshields and missing side windows, and the joint patrol moved out. One Iraqi officer draped his Kevlar vest from the window of his car door for lateral protection. During a lunch break, the officers tried to sneak away in their cars.

    Later in the day, back at her command center on a military base in southern Baghdad, Captain Bagley said the pleading and excuses were common. But she did not blame the Iraqis.

    They are soft targets for the insurgency, and scores of officers have been wounded or killed in her area during the past year. The police stations’ motor pools are so crowded with ravaged vehicles that they could be taken for salvage yards.

    “I’d never want to go out in an Iraqi police truck,” the captain said. “But we still have to convince them. We’ve been given a job to train them.”

    But she also points out that her orders were to help train and equip a local force to deal with common crime, like theft and murder, not teach infantry skills to wage a counterinsurgency campaign.

    The government’s sclerotic supply chain, clogged by bureaucracy, corruption and lack of money, has failed to provide the stations with the necessary tools of policing, from office supplies to weapons, uniforms and police cruisers.

    “Even something as simple as a pen, they have to get it for us,” said Maj. Muhammad Hassan Aboud, the commander of the Belat Al Shuwayda station in southern Baghdad, pointing to Captain Bagley. “If we lose them, we’re pretty much going nowhere.”

    The captain said, “We’re holding their hands so much now.” If the Americans were not involved, she said, some senior commanders would not have the fortitude to confront the militias. “A lot of times I’m just the motivator,” she said.

    “I’m motivated because I’m going home soon. But what motivates them?”

    Days earlier, she recalled, a death squad had killed the family of another of her station commanders. “Yet,” she continued, a tinge of exasperation in her voice, “you’re given the mission to motivate these guys to protect Iraqi citizens.”

    She decided to focus on developing the top officers, particularly the station commanders. “We realized that if we didn’t have a strong leader, the station won’t work,” she said.

    But the Interior Ministry, which oversees the police force, has frequently changed commanders, often citing reasons of incompetence or death threats, sometimes offering no explanation at all. The Al Rashid station has had eight chiefs since it opened in late April. Absentee rates there
    have soared as high as 75 percent, though the rate had dropped to 25 percent by late last month, in large part because the latest chief was docking the pay of absent officers.

    She has also had to confront the creep of militia influence, as militia loyalists within the force used their leverage to avoid punishment or intimidate senior leadership.

    The job of inspiring her Iraqi and American charges alike has become increasingly difficult as the violence has escalated in Baghdad in recent months.

    As part of the American military’s push to wrest control of the capital’s streets from insurgents and militias, she was ordered to move some of her soldiers out of the police stations and into the streets of Dora to conduct daily patrols.

    Following an effort by American and Iraqi troops to seal off and clear that neighborhood, violence there has risen sharply, and attacks on her joint patrols have become frequent.

    On Oct. 2, her soldiers were accompanying Iraqi police officers on a patrol through the Dora marketplace when a sniper shot and killed Sgt. Joseph Walter Perry, a 23-year-old turret gunner from San Diego. He was one of at least eight American soldiers killed in Iraq that day.

    Numerous soldiers from Captain Bagley’s company had been wounded over the year; in April, a bomb destroyed a Humvee and tore off the driver’s left leg. But Sergeant Perry’s death was the company’s first here and it devastated Captain Bagley.

    “People from other units will say, ‘You’’ve only lost one?’” she said, her face tensing in indignation. “Only? We haven’t had it so bad as others, but I can’t minimize Perry’s death.” She paused. “I’’m the one who sends them into the market.”

    After the death, Captain Bagley started counting the days to the end of the tour and her company’s return to Fort Bragg in North Carolina. She found herself lying awake at night, thinking about how to keep her company alive amid a worsening war. She started micromanaging her soldiers’ movements. She tried to relax in the evenings by hanging out with
    her lieutenants or reading paperbacks that she describes as “trashy.” But the relief was always fleeting. “I’’m in no-sleep mode,” she said.

    As the death toll among American troops has risen in Baghdad, and the security plan has faltered, Captain Bagley’s soldiers say they have tried to resist the urge to question the larger American enterprise here, whether it was right or wrong to come to Iraq in the first place, whether and when American troops should leave. They are here to do a job, they say, and are
    duty-bound to complete it.

    But Captain Bagley has asked herself those questions “all the time,” she said. She ponders whether it has all been worth her soldier’s leg or her soldier’s life. She wonders what the American command will do to turn things around.

    Her phone calls with her father sometimes touch on the faltering course of the war. “He asks, ‘Why the heck doesn’t it calm down?’ ” she said. She is at a loss to explain why.

    Her discouragement is plain, but she keeps her deepest thoughts private, in part because she wants to protect her soldiers from doubt at this most critical time in their lives. She knows that their job is difficult enough without the suggestion that their sacrifices may have been in vain.
    “You can’t pass it along to your soldiers,” she said. “You can’t question it. It would lead to the destruction of the company. You got to keep it together.”

    The company has done everything it could to help rebuild Iraq, she said, but now they want to go home. “ It’s been a very frustrating year,” she said. “We all want to get out of here.”

  • I know almost everyone here regards this as an American problem, and I can see that the concern is sincere to find a morally respectable solution, but I concur with DeepDarkDiamond that Iraq is a problem for the international community to solve rather than the US.

    Being neither a citizen nor a resident of the United States of America I know my perspective on this issue is different from that of most Americans who are seriously trying to grapple with it. I try to respect these boundaries and not intrude where I am not involved. Iraq is different, though, in that it is a situation in which the United States interfaces with the rest of the world.

    My view, as I have expressed here several times, is that, in international matters, America should have the humility and decency to respect and operate within the existing procedures for dealing with international problems. Unfortunately, because of its economic and military might, the temptation has apparently been irresistible to ride roughshod over the finer fabric of international protocol. This is not just a pity, it is also a crime.

    In the delicate state of our incipient global community, great damage has been done by this gross violation of trust and honor among those working for a better world. This is where I part company with some of the views expressed above, which seem too narrow to encompass the magnitude of the catastrophe created by the ineptitude and mendacity of this Bush administration. The insult and disservice done to the world is virtually beyond measure.

    What I would like to see, and I suspect I am not alone in this, is:

    First, an apology.
    Second, a withdrawal.
    Third, a pledge never to transgress, deceive or obstruct the wishes and functioning of the international community again.
    Fourth, a commitment to pay all necessary reparations.
    Fifth, a surrender of those responsible for this atrocity to the International Court of Justice for trial and sentence.

    Concommitant with this would be a cummutation of the death penalty on Saddam Hussein, pending review and retrial.

  • To Fitz

    For all those who claim we owe nothing, perhaps a good first step would be to reshape the 200,000 to 700,000 dead as human beings in your mind.

    So, what do you want to do ? Pile another 200,000 to 700,000 dead on top of that ? Explain me what our contribution would be ?

    The military option is a disaster for us and everyone else and all the talk of “diplomatic options”, of ”bringing the international community together” is bullshit. There is not a single actor in good faith in the region. There is a civil war in Iraq and there’s a regional war on its way. And there is nothing we can do about it. I see no reason to contribute to this mess any further.

    As you say yourself, it is also irrelevant rather we feel responsible or not. Spot on. But contrary to you, I have no intention of paying one more dime because any dollar we would throw in this sink hole would be a lost dollar. All that money would be far better invested here at home to insulate ourselves as much as feasible from the coming oil shock.

    As for “guilt” about the Middle East, sorry, but I don’t care about them. I really don’t.

  • This is an excellent question, and an excellent debate.
    The US must withdraw, sooner or later. The question is how and when.
    It is essential to involve Iran, Syria, Turkey, and Saudi Arabia in discussing Iraq’s future and our withdrawal timetable. All have crucial interests in Iraq’s success as a nation. Syria and Iran have opened diplomatic channels with the new Iraq govt and that is encouraging. I haven’t heard about Turkey or Saudi Arabia, tho.
    It will be important to clarify the US’s intentions in regard to basing US troops in the area. Will we base them in Iraq? Elsewhere? This will clarify the question of imperialism and oil hegemony.
    It is also vital to begin a discussion across the middle east about the security of Israel. Somehow this must be reconciled to Palestinian aspirations, or the hezbollah wild card emerges. Perhaps it’s linked to US guarantees for security for Syria and Iran, as well as an intact Iraq. But what of the Palestinians themselves, and the “right of return?”

    There’s not single, simple solution. Diplomacy must ramp up to begin peaceful discussions of these issues. Not just US and UN, but others are in a position to provide leadership. A steady hand at the US tiller will also be necessary over the course, but this is as unlikely as the other factors.

  • For all those who claim we owe nothing, perhaps a good first step would be to reshape the 200,000 to 700,000 dead as human beings in your mind. Fitz @ #34

    Or think of millions of dead in Vietnam, or the thousands dead in the Dresden firebombings, or (take your pick of armed conflict with civilian casualties).

    I’m certainly not making light of your concern. Because you’ve certainly thought about this more than the Bush Administration and the GOP. But this country has a lot on it’s conscience and much to make amends for before we get to Iraq.

    The country is at the point where the majority of people are saying “Enough is enough.” No amount of money, no amount of U.S. troops, no new military offensive, no amount of U.S. diplomatic pressure is going to solve this ever-worsening catastrophe.

    The problem at this point isn’t that we’ve applied too little force or thrown too many dollars willy-nilly at the problem. The problem is simply US — as in any continued American presence and involvement is the root and an exacerbation to instability in Iraq.

    The “mature” first step to do is recognize American involvement is the problem. Halt payments to Bechtel and KBR, close the permanent military bases and withdraw our troops. We can determine our future relationship with Iraq after all of that.

  • In response to Steve, I couldn’t agree more that you, your family and everyone else in the US who objected to the war are not directly responsible for it, but don’t you carry a certain measure of responsibility for your government and the outcome of it’s follies? Isn’t it up to you and your neighbours to make sure that your elected officials do everything within their power to not only come up with the best solution for all involved, but to investigate and punish the guilty? The rest of the world can only watch and hope. While I doubt impeachment can be considered a realistic possibility (the Senate is short on votes; can’t impeach Bush without Cheney; leaves Pelosi as President and the optics of that are left too open to attack) but does that still leave open the possibility of some sort of trial after 2008? Who is the pit-bull that will not only start the ball rolling, but stick with it until the end?

  • But contrary to you, I have no intention of paying one more dime because any dollar we would throw in this sink hole would be a lost dollar.

    [Fifi]

    So…you’re going to stop paying your taxes or leave the US? Those are your options if you really don’t intend to pay one more dime.

  • “The problem is simply US — as in any continued American presence and involvement is the root and an exacerbation to instability in Iraq.” — braniac #48

    I would respectfully disagree. By overthrowing Saddam’s regime, we are responsible for taking the lid off of a pressure-cooker of long-standing religious and ethnic differences, and allowing them to organize into viable forces. Too many of those among the various groups do not feel allegiance to a larger Iraq but to their particular groups. What we are seeing now is not so much Iraqis vs the US, but Iraqi vs Iraqi — if there truly is an Iraq anymore.

    The side discussion of whether and to what extent individual Americans are obligated for the actions of their leaders is an interesting one and not one I’m prepared to engage in. I would suggest one factor that in this case should be considered: Americans had a chance to reject GWB in 2004 and did not. (Or, if you believe elections were thrown, Americans did not reject Bush in such numbers as to outweigh the rigging of elections).

  • I would respectfully disagree. By overthrowing Saddam’s regime, we are responsible for taking the lid off of a pressure-cooker of long-standing religious and ethnic differences, and allowing them to organize into viable forces. Too many of those among the various groups do not feel allegiance to a larger Iraq but to their particular groups.

    You’re correct about the religious and ethic differences.

    But I was also referring to the kidnappings, assasinations, and car bombings at police stations and military recruitment centers that occur mainly because the perceived “collaboration” with U.S. forces. Our presence is also fueling ethnic/religious tensions now because groups of Sunni or Shia see the U.S. allied with one or the other.

  • 1. Pull out everybody and send them home.

    2. Hire large and small contractors from within the region (Iran, Syria, Saudi etc) to rebuild the infrastructure. Pay them for the materials. Pay them again when a job is finished.

    3. Airlift supplies to wherever they’re needed: water, food, fuel.

    4. Turn everything else over to the Iraqi people. Let them do as they will.

  • In the end my biggest concern about leaving Iraq is the ethnic cleansing and genocide that will accellerate in our absence.

    And then the world will scream that we are not in there stopping it, like we are not in Darfur and were not in Rwanda.

    Do the Iraqis want us out. Well they regard insurgents who kill our troops as heros. That I think is all the grounds we need to leave.

    I refer you back to comment #2 as for our obligations.

  • Wow. Really LATE to the “party,” and this is one I had been hoping CB would throw for some time. So, thanks, Michael, for posing the question. I have been troubled by the notion of “what we owe Iraq” for a LONG time. Then I heard a radio interview of Noah Feldman who made the analogy of the US invasion and and the ensuing train wreck of an occupation to deliberately running down a pedestrian and trying to figure out one’s responsibility upon noting the pedestrian’s obvious distress. Leave him to live or die by whatever he can do for himself? Summon help? Try to heal him with whatever means you personnally have at your disposal? Of course the analogy breaks down because the pedestrian isn’t noted to be bashing his own head into the pavement as he suffers on the side of the road…

    As I drove home from work this evening, I heard yet another report of 100’s of Iraqi deaths today. When I hear these reports, I cannot escape the feeling that the US (and therefore, me in some sense) has to own up to its accountability for its utter hubris in the planning and conduct of the invasion and occupation of Iraq. I wish I could accept that Iraqi’s now have the power to make this right by rejecting violence and demanding tolerance and fairness from their neighbors and their government. But, I honestly cannot say that I would feel able to stand up to armed and brutal militia men if suddenly my neighborhood were over-run by such a horror.

    The actions of our government gave Iraq a mighty shove down the slope to chaos. So, in my mind, we owe Iraq as much help as we can give them to establish a society that is stable, productive, and relatively safe. I just do not know what form that “help” should take. I know things are FUBAR, and there do not appear to be any excellent options. Much has been said in the comments above that resonate, and some things have not resonated at all. Getting back to the pedestrian analogy, I guess I think we should do all we can to summon help to (a) convince the pedestrian that he must first stop bashing his own head into he pavement and then (b) try to heal the wounds sustained when we ran him down. But, I think that any overture to regional players to engage in helping solve Iraq will have to be accompanied by a GIANT and unmistakable act of humility and contrition on the part of BushCo, and I don’t see that happening. They think invading Iran is a good idea.

  • BushCo screwed this up from the outset. OK Now for some time the Iraqis have had a “representative” govt. They voted it in. They don’t like it. They really don’t like us. We have absolutely nothing to gain. Goodbye, tomorrow. Chaos? What, something new?

  • Get out. If nothing else, it’ll remove the excuse that some of them are now using: that they’re fighting the invader and killing collaborators.

    Iraq has become a bottomless pit; an ever-widening spiral of death that our presence there only exacerbates. Apologize and admit you were totally wrong. Give them the architects of this disaster to shred. Stand by with ready cash to rebuild as soon as they sort some things out for themselves (how much they’re willing to put up with *in the absence* of the foreign invader). Strip DoD of *all funds other than* those necessary to support the debts already incurred, like the “human services” (health care and salaries for the soldiers and their families) and re-direct those funds towards the rebuilding of the infrastructure of Iraq.

    All the same… TAIO’s idea (@27) of bringing in a draft for everyone over 12 (I’d extend it at the other end to at least 60) has some merit… The training camps ought to be an excellent cure for our obesity problem.

  • I hope Steve doesn’t mind, but I thought I’d get a discussion going today. — Guest Post by Michael J.W. Stickings”

    Thanks, Michael, for an excellent topic and for helping to mind the kids while CB was away. After thinking about your question, it occurred to me that having this discussion on the national level would be infinitely more useful at this stage than talking about winning and losing. Now, having refined our own thoughts and considered the comments of others, I think we’ll all be in a better position to evaluate the upcoming reports of the Iraq study groups (the first of which is outlined in todays Washington Post). Peace.

  • At this point, it seems almost beside the point to say this: The New Republic deeply regrets its early support for this war.

    So TNR is sorry. Whoop-de-doo. Are they sorry enough to admit that all the progressives who TNR’s firebreathing jackasses heaped abuse upon were right? Apparently that was so “besides the point” that they didn’t even have to say it. Which indicates to me that they are just looking for a way out of the jam they’re in, and not true contrition.

    Digging for one minute reveals I was right: Kaplan says here
    http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=w061023&s=kaplan102506

    …What is being debated after Iraq, however, is not the mechanics of democracy promotion but its very desirability… critics on the campaign trail have offered a formula for virtual disarmament.

    Strawmen, bullshit attacks, and more strawmen. “The surrender monkeys don’t want to promote democracy”. Not exactly contrition. STFU and go to the back of the class, Mr Kaplan. Just STFU. Now.

    Back to the present BS from TNR:
    …There is no policy for Iraq that will provide moral and strategic satisfaction…

    Yes, there is no way to make the shards of Humpty Dumpty into a Faberge egg. D.U.H. But there actually are ways to get a LOT of “moral and strategic satisfaction” out of this situation, and even make progress that would benefit the entire planet, and save far more lives than the Iraq war will EVER cost. If the Iraq war can finally provide the impetus to break our dependence on fossil fuel, it could end up being a net plus. And if warmongers from the most powerful country on earth can be brought to justice, that would set a powerful precedent which would benefit future generations greatly. But TNR will always be opposed to allowing foreigners to judge Americans, and they will always be opposed to implementing the sensible energy policies their beloved Republican whores are paid to oppose.

    …This magazine has long advocated deploying U.S. power to halt the mass slaughter of innocents…

    Oh really? Did they advocate sending troops to Darfur? Somalia? Congo? Did they oppose the idea of nuking Iran? Color me skeptical. I don’t read their crappy rag, so maybe they did, if so someone please correct me.

    …Saddam Hussein distinguished himself at the mass slaughter of innocents: About this, there can be no dispute…

    Yes, and Bush’s helpers gave him chemical weapons technology when we knew he was using them against the Iranians. We gave him intelligence data to make his attacks more effective. We sent Donald Rumsfeld to shake Saddams bloody hand when we knew what he had done. And yet Rumsfeld and the other war mongers are not behind bars, in part because of conservative media like TNR.

    …Many Democrats have embraced a proposal called “phased redeployment,” a politically expedient way of saying immediate withdrawal…

    See how they put the word “Democrats” when they should say “Americans”? This is not true contrition, this is political hackery.

    …American power may not be capable of transforming ancient cultures or deep hatreds, but that fact does not absolve us of the duty to conduct a foreign policy that takes its moral obligations seriously. As we attempt to undo the damage from a war that we never should have started, our moral obligations will not vanish, and neither will our strategic needs…

    Yes, let’s look at our moral obligations, and consult with the rest of the world and get their opinions as well. Or don’t their opinions count? Let’s see how they feel about global warming, which will potentially kill more people than all the wars TNR ever had a wet dream about.

    I wonder if our “moral obligations” are to be judged solely by Americans, or by the majority of people on the planet. Suddenly TNR will complain that democracy will not be such a good idea.

    The article raises good questions, none of which it answers. But one question is answered: Is TNR still full of shit?

    Definitely.

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