Sunday Night Open Thread

August 17, 2008

So, what’s on your mind? Got any links you want to share? Stories that need a plug? Requests to make?

Is Russia really prepared to withdraw from Georgia? Will Blackwater guards really face justice? Is Jon Stewart really the most trusted man in America?

The floor is yours….

ohne-rezeptkaufen.com

I love John Stewart and Steven Colbert, when I feel like screaming at all the lies and unfairness in this campaign, they are always there to bring a smile to me, but the most important thing, they are smarter than 95% of our politicians.

  • It seems that McCain’s experience with the North Vietnamese guard drawing the cross in the dirtas recounted last night and on his website as a Christmas message bears an uncanny resemblance to an experience that Alexander Solzhenitsyn had that he described in “The Gulag Archipelago,” published in 1973. Even more mysterious, when McCain wrote at length about his experiences as a POW in 1973 he mentions an episode where a guard loosened his bonds but without the cross drawn in the sand. Perhaps he had’t yet read Solzhenitsyn.

  • McCain thinks we should have a sense of humor about the book swiftboating Obama. I am sure he will keep his sense of humor, it looks like the Viet Nam veterans against McCain are getting ready for an assault.
    It’s OK John, it’s all in good fun.

  • http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2570754/Georgia-conflict-How-a-flat-tyre-took-the-Caucasus-to-war.html

    A flat tyre on a Russian diplomatic car triggered the slide to war in Georgia after it forced the cancellation of key peace talks the day before fighting erupted, The Sunday Telegraph has learned.

    Trouble had been brewing in the disputed South Ossetian region for weeks as Moscow-backed militias skirmished with Georgian troops, yet Russian-brokered negotiations between the Georgian government and the separatists had continued.

    But the first substantial face-to-face talks on August 7 fell through after a farcical chain of events in which the top Russian diplomat claimed he was unable to attend the meeting in South Ossetia because his car tyre had run flat.

    Refusing to take his excuse at face value, the Georgian delegation then assumed they were being lured into a trap, and began the shelling that invited the Russian invasion.

  • Take time and google and read the powerful energy speech given by President Carter, July 15, 1979 which fell on deaf ears.

  • A couple of interesting tidbits on Think Progress today, including one (from Pew Research) about who watches which TV. But my fav is this one:
    http://tinyurl.com/5twue8
    Of course, nobody can point to any big ideas that McCain has! His only “big idea” is: “I don’t like Obama”. Everything else — taxes, healthcare, energy, economy — is just garnish to that main dish.

  • Did everyone just see CNN, McCain was not in a cone of silence last night, he was not even there, he was on the way in his motorcade, probably getting his notes for the evening.
    The Pastor admitted he was not there.

  • JS, what a surprise. When he pounded his fist on the table (I forgot the particular exclamation) he was the exact likeness of Nikita Khrushchev. Think he was coached on that too?

    I still don’t get how this (Shoot-out @ Saddleback) all came about. I don’t recall reading a thing about it until a couple of weeks ago.

  • JS: This statement was made on another thread. Can you document it? If so, W*O*W! And what did Warren say about this? (The word is “c-h-e-a-t-i-n-g” btw)

    I hope he called McCain on it and apologized to his audience. But please give me a source — I just checked on the CNN website and didn’t find it.

  • I renew my comment from last night’s open thread: On alternative energy, the commercial I want to see, maybe from Move-On instead of the campaign, is a visual of John McCain sitting in his office while the bill only got 59 votes for cloture. Have a narrator explain what is happening and why reality conflicts with what McCain is saying now, using an explosive tag line like “John McCain says now that he is for alternative energy, but when a chance came X months ago to do the right thing, where was John McCain? Cowering in his office afraid to put his name on the record. Add that to the other 7 times he has failed to vote for this critical bill in the last year.”

  • I know it seems petty, but please spell people’s names correctly: it is Jon Stewart, not John. I ‘get’ when someone’s name is intentionally misspelled, like JSMcC*nt, for effect. Accuracy and credibility go hand in hand. I am somewhat anal on grammar, spelling and the correct use of language. It elevates the credibility of the writer when s/he uses the language well.
    Thanks for your indulgence.
    I am committed to Oneness through Justice and Transformation
    peace,
    st john

  • And, to correct myself: that should be peoples’ names, plural, possessive. Even I make mistakes…with egg on face!
    st john

  • Hi.

    Do you happen to know if there are any data on nuclear plants’ preparation against terrorist attack? I have heard nuclear plants are strong enough for small plane crash, but not heard if they are strong enough for 747 crash(es).

    McCain says he wants more nuclear plants. Besides general safety and nuclear waste issues, how can he assure to us they are safe against (possible) terrorist attacks?

  • What McTrinkets is McSame giving away these days? Judging by the number of McSamists posting to the ‘rich’ thread, they must be lovely.
    But I’m wondering if there was a specific site directing them here. There’s just too many of them for it to be a spontaneous eruption. It’s also very interesting that they felt the need to defend the ‘joke’ in such numbers. Methinks the astroturfers doth protest too much.

  • Prup – you can read the full remarks on Daily Kos, it happened on CNN’s Rick Sanchez show, I just sent an email to complain to the church.

  • Here’s what I think. If McCain is elected, things will get much, much worse. If Obama is elected, things won’t get better, but they won’t get worse, either.

  • What are the chances that McCain’s made up story about the cross, or the fact that he had a majority of the questions before hand, actually gets covered by the MSM? Had this been Obama or Hillary this would be news. But its John McCain, so nothing. Annoying, isn’t it?

  • @ JS # 16 – I can’t find it on the KOS give us a link if you can. I watched and I have no doubt they “cheated” How else do you explain Grandpa McfumbleMouth Having his talking points ready to go and trying to answer the Supreme court question before it was asked.

  • MsJoanne@#13 Best death scene by a gigantic CGI Fake Centipede. EVAR!

    I like it ok, it’s still no Torchwood or DrWho or even RobinHood, but amusing for a summer. (And again, they are all really great eye candy.So it has that going for it.)

  • @ 19 Scott R I would venture to say it goes beyond annoying. It is like living in a police state ” All the news we determine you are allowed to hear”

  • McCain kicked the CRAP out of Obama on the forum last night…..he looked so presidential, knowledgable and substantial. Obama is not ready to lead our country just yet….but if he gets 8 more years of Senate experience, I can definetly see myself voting for him then…just not now. Jennifer, Hartford CT

  • JS #16 Never mind …here is is
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/17/183618/538/94/569444 ( Link to Kos story on cheat)
    WTF I was thinking about it. Who ever said Warren was unbiased? He comes across as one of those smarmy , can do no wrong , type of people. The thing to remember is whose team is he on! You don’t think he is going to go with the guy who supports his narrow minded world view , even if it is only pandering. I’m sorry ladies and gentleman, we were set up on this one. The fix was in weeks ago and we should have seen it coming.

  • # 25 Jennifer Thank you kindly for that Republican talking point. Your cut and paste skills are excellent. It’s easy to kick the crap out of someone when you cheat.

  • Here’s another tidbit of information for McCain to chew on, and explain about government waste of military equipment that could have been used for our soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq

    “There is a presence of our armed forces (Russian) near Gori and Senaki. We make no secret of it,” said the general staff in Moscow. “They are there to defuse an enormous arsenal of weapons and military hardware which have been discovered in the vicinity of Gori and Senaki without any guard whatsoever.”

    The “enormous arsenals” are American-made or American-supplied. American money, know-how, planning, and equipment built these bases as part of Washington’s drive to bring Nato membership to a small country that is Russia’s underbelly.

    The American “train and equip” mission for the Georgian military is six years old. It has been destroyed in as many days.

    Is that courtesy of McCain’s lobbyists, or McCain’s love affair with the Georgian President whom he calls several times a day?

    Here’s the original link: Six days that broke one country – and reshaped the world order

    It’s a little long, but certainly puts a different spin on it, from what we’ve been lead to beleive by the White House, McCain and the MSM.

  • I can’t believe the people in that audience were able to pay $500-2000 a seat yet somehow still managed to be so stupid. Listen to how loudly they applaud when McCain jumps the gun and answers the question before it is even asked, like he’s a magician who read Warren’s mind. Morons.

  • Here’s another tidbid, about a Russian company buying, what is considered, a strategic company, in the US.

    Novolipetsk Steel said Wednesday that it agreed to buy John Maneely Company, the United States’ largest independent steel pipe and tube manufacturer, for $3.5 billion in the biggest North American purchase ever by a Russian metals company.

    I wonder what McCain’s take on this is? And if he considers the cause of the US dollar being so low, that all US companies are now considered bargains, courtesy of the Bush Administration.

    Thanks to Bush, Bin Laden could have never wished for a better outcome, when he delivered his famous video before 9/11 about bringing America to its knees.

    What better way than having foreigners buying America.

    Almost forgot, here’s the original link Novolipetsk

    Let the McCain defenders explain it to us.

  • #28. C’mon John –when someone performs well, they perform well…period. There was no cheating involved…Obama hit a homerun in Europe, and now McCain did an awesome job last night (and won me over, I had tears in my eyes I connected so emotionally with him). Give credit where credit is due.
    I’m obviously not going to change your mind, (you are a proud liberal and good for you.) I guess I just wanted to say outloud that I changed my mind.
    Jennifer Hartford CT

  • Jennifer, did you not read the rest of the thread? McCain knew the questions in advance. Warren lied and said McCain was at the church while Obama was onstage. He wasn’t. It’s not hard to do well when you cheat..

  • Jennifer…. Anybody who claims to be a Democrat, but vote for McCain, is NOT a true democrat, just one pretending to be one to ease your own putrid mind.

    Did you cry because of the plagiarizing about the cross in the sand? Or was it the lies about his voting record? What was it that made you cry? Probably something shallow.

  • here’s something to consider; it’s losely translated from a French Canadian article:

    Four out of five Americans say that it’s more difficult now than it was five years ago to maintain a middle-class lifestyle. They tend to blame everything and nothing… Outsourcing, the rise of China and India, illegal immigrants, free trade, high gas prices,… Often, they forget some other explanations: a large number of their workers are in poor health; the education system has fallen behind Europe’s; their society, smothered by its obsession with security, is less free and less innovative than before.

    Here’s the original link: Attention Angry Voters

    I think she does make a point about most republicans, and some Democratic and Independent voters as well, blaming the wrong causes and obsessing with the wrong things.

  • John, I tried the link listed on #24 but got an “unable to access this webpage” sign. I would still like to read it.
    I did really connect with McCain last night though. I saw him as so brave and knowledgeable, and literally I did cry with his responses. I don’t think he made that info up, even if as you say , he knew the questions beforehand.
    Again I like Obama but I have’nt connected with him emotionally and I would like him to have that 8 more years in the Senate, then I really feel he would be a complete package for me (compasion, strength, knowledge and experience).
    Just my opinion. Jennifer, Hartford CT

  • Bruno,
    it’s very divisive to say someone who doe’snt share your EXACT opinion of what it means to be a Democrat can’t possibly be a Democrat.
    Being a Democrat to me is being “for the underdog”, the poor, the elderly, children…for helping others (and as McCain said last night) for being for a cause greater than yourself. I was so impressed that McCain adopted a child at deaths door, at Mother Teresa’s orphanage, in a third world country. That was so amazing to me. And that he continued to be abused by staying in that camp, and letting his friend go first (in accordance wth their “code”)…talk about strength and compassion.How many other people on the planet would be so selfless?
    I was just incredibly impressed with him.. I just wanted to “journal” my feelings for the man.
    Jennifer, Hartford CT

  • I am still wondering why this minister’s interview with the candidates was ever conceived and broadcast, unless it is another product of the media having to come up with more fluff to fill the airwaves and internet. What authority does this minister or any other member of the clergy have to question the candidates? We have had ample cases of clergy in high esteem being caught in blatant violation of issues against which the preached loudly and from which they profited nicely . What is the purpose of having the candidates answer questions about the existence of evil? I think this is a dangerous event and goes counter to the prohibition of a candidate’s having to pass any religious test. These celebrity preachers manipulate an electorate largely uninformed or misinformed about important issues. They play on the team that benefits by shifting the focus from important issues of state to false, hot-button religious issues, much like the perennial “War on Christmas.” I would rather have an honest, intelligent, atheist or agnostic who cares about the welfare of humanity and the world as a leader than the crooked, psuedo-religious politicians who worship only wealth and power that this country has elected far to often.

    What the religious right does not want anyone to know is that the founders of our nation were only too familiar with the danger of mixing government and religion, not only in the case of the Church of England, but also with the religious wars that had ravaged Europe. The established Church of England in the colonies was good at persecuting other religions–Roger Williams and the Baptists, for example, who fled to the colony of Rhode Island for sanctuary.

    The sad thing is that much of this nation wears ignorance like a crown. This is the audience CNN is hoping to attract with this program.

  • All right all right I give up – I should have known – don’t feed the trolls. I’m off to do some Republican for Obama posting over at Fox News

  • #43 MBOC
    Thank you. I can’t tell you how moved I was by Mr McCain last night…I called my parents after the forum and they were crying too.We are just so impressed with him. I told my dad last night “I am so passionate now about this man being our next president”. Really he is amazing. I hope someday I can make the type of sacrifice for another human being as he has done in his lifetime.
    Jennifer, Hartford CT

  • I sometimes attend right-wing meetings just to see what they’re up to. I’ve heard McCain tell that story about the guard making the cross in the dirt more than once. In fact, he has been criticized by some in the Religious Right for telling it over and over. Their perspective is that if McCain has lived his life as a serious Christian, he ought to be able to talk about that in a meaningful way. Instead, he breaks out a stale anecdote about a prison guard in Vietnam — a story that says more about the faith of the guard than it does about McCain’s faith.

    Anyone who would feel emotionally connected to McCain after hearing that story needs to understand that it’s just a useful prop for him. He needed a feel-good anecdote for the right-wing Christians, and this is the one he came up with. McCain and/or the people who tell him what to do and say don’t even have the sense to come up with some more stories. It’s just that one, over and over again. The incident may or may not be true. That is not the point. The point is, it’s all McCain can come up with.

    I’m one who think there’s too much talk about religion in this campaign, but even having said that, McCain’s manipulation of this story strikes me as new low in cynicism from him. “I’ll just tell the right-wing Christians this story, and they’ll like me and vote for me. Yeah, that’s it.”

  • per Jennifer, the alleged Democrat for McCain,

    Being a Democrat to me is being “for the underdog”. . . for being for a cause greater than yourself.

    If you are remotely informed, or remotely honest, you should be for anyone but McCain.

    Unless you consider the oil companies, who have made all-time record profits each of the last 3 quarters, underdogs — McCain is making dishonest statements about the benefits of expended drilling purely to advance Big Oil’s cause, and if you don’t believe me, just follow the money on his campaign finance disclosures.

    Or perhaps you consider the top 1% of richest Americans to be underdogs? After all, they are the only group that has truly benefitted from BushCo’s defecit-exploding tax cuts. McCain wants to extend those economically harmful and government decimating cuts; Obama wants to reduce taxes for the middle class (yes, this may shock you, but McCain’s ad about Obama’s tax plan has been repeatedly proven to be a lie.) Who is for the underdog?

    I should note, too, that it is pretty easy for the rich to oppose access to safe abortion — it wont be their kids suffering because they can ferry them to a more enlightened country. But those underdogs, the teen girls in poverty who make unfortunate choices from low self esteem, a lack of perceived opportunities, etc – McCain certainly isn’t supporting any rights for them.

    Women are often considered underdogs in politics, in the workplace, in economics. McCain opposed the act to correct the Supreme Court’s Ledbetter case, a bill that would help ensure equal pay for women. He laughed when a supporter referred to Hillary as a bitch. He allegedly called his wife even worse.

    And about that bigger purpose than one’s self. . . it may just be me, but I consider telling anyone whatever they want to hear to get elected pretty selfish. To see how much of that your man McCain has done, just peruse the upper left hand corner: click on the weather vane to see McCain’s extensive flip-flops. No, whether it was his corruption in the Keating Five scandal, cozying up to the Rove and Falwell types who had slimed him in 2000 just because they could help him get elected, or changing his position more than 70 times — so far — it has been a long, long time since McCain honored a principle other than self-advancement.

    So you can tell us your reasons for allegedly supporting McCain all you like, but they don’t match up well with the objective reality about McCain. Either (a) you really aren’t a Democrat and aren’t stating your real reasons for supporting McCain or (b) you aren’t really pro-McCain, just anti-Obama or (c) aren’t really aware of who John McCain is and what he stands for (or, depending on the day, doesn’t).

    If it is (a), I encourage you to either drop the pretense and give us the real reasons and we can debate them more openly or admit that you are a troll.

    If it is (b) I’d love to hear why you ared so irrationally anti-Obama.

    If it is (c), I suggest you get educated before November. Here is a good place to star.

  • I assume that Rick Warren composed these question in advance–typed or dictated them. (Were they on a teleprompter?) And it seems logical to me that one of McCain’s fans in the church gave a copy of them to someone in McCain’s camp. This would have given him time to prepare. He probably also heard or received the info about Obama’s hour. I don’t think Morse code would be necessary.

  • I thought I had heard everything, but for some one to feel emotionally connected to McCain made me laugh. I support and respect Obama, but I am not emotionally connected to him, I am emotionally connected to my family and friends. McCain has told this same on sad story before. It is just a poltiical move, nothing more. Voting for someone because of some sad old tired story, he told before just to get sympathy and votes, is pandering to the weak minded. Hell, I sure Obama can give us some stories that will make all of us cry(growing up without a father, racism), but that is not what picking a president is suppose to be about.

    Of note, I think Obama did well. McCain obviously knew some of the answers. I was shocked just as much as anybody with his quick responses, given his verbal misteps and incoherent responses throughout the campaign. Despite that, I will give the old man a little credit, he did well, but does not change my mind about his policies. I think he wil be dangerous for this country.

    Obama 08

  • #48–I watched the interview and the preacher stated both Obama and McCain got questions beforehand. So that’s even–they both got a leg up on what would be asked. And they both performed how they performed…Obama did well, but McCain hit me emotionally.
    #49. I am not “irrationally” anti-Obama…I did’nt say I was anti-Obama at all…I like him, he’s compassionate and charismatic. I was just SO emotionally moved by McCain….the adoption, the sacrifice, the bravery—-it made me cry. ( Please read my entries above to see my definition of “Democrat”.) McCain has done very selfless and brave things in his life…period. You can’t say he did’nt, he did.
    Both guys have flip-flopped. I’m OK with this, as Obama says, because they “evolved”. OK sounds good to me….come around to the middle/moderate stance, that’s what I want to see..
    The abortion stance McCain has is not my choice (as a woman) but I don’t really believe anyone will change those laws related to medical issues or rape….. he also said recently he would’nt actively change them (he is an Independent in Republicans clothes as far as I’m concerned). So this is not as much of a concern as I think the liberals want us to think it is.
    As far as the comments about his wife….I don’t know if they are true, but I’ve been married for a few years and I’ve had a few not-great moments myself where I said stupid things I did’nt really mean, and felt bad later for…maybe it’s just me, or maybe it’s the nature of being with someone for years…?
    I just connected with the man emotionally. It changed my opinion of who I would vote for. Jennifer Hartford CT

  • #46: “McCain’s manipulation of this story strikes me as new low in cynicism from him. “I’ll just tell the right-wing Christians this story, and they’ll like me and vote for me. Yeah, that’s it.””

    The ultimate eye roll from me (and there were many) was when McCain told the story about refusing freedom, which took a while, and after he finished, Warren started talking, and McCain interrupted with ‘can I add that I prayed a lot about it?’ or some such. Saying that he prayed was just an afterthought when he remembered, oh yeah, I’m talking in a church, better mention that. Panderer!

  • As Hannah put it in post # 54, is pretty much why people like Jennifer from Lieberman country (Democrat for McCain) fall for that drivel. Play to the emotions of emotional people and they’re hooked.

    An emotional person, like Jennifer, isn’t capable of making a rational decision. The fact that she mentioned herself that it is an emotional decision, means you’re wasting your time arguing with her about it.

    That’s simple psychology 101…. Seems like McCain has that one down pretty good. That’s the experience he keeps referring to… The experience to know what it takes to make people ‘feel’ you. Even if that means you have to fake it.

    Voila, I present you Jennifer ‘Lieberman’.

  • #53: “The abortion stance McCain has is not my choice (as a woman) but I don’t really believe anyone will change those laws related to medical issues or rape….. he also said recently he would’nt actively change them (he is an Independent in Republicans clothes as far as I’m concerned). So this is not as much of a concern as I think the liberals want us to think it is.”
    ~~~
    You may want to re-think your position. The next president will get to nominate one to three Supreme Court Justices. If you think McCain WON’T nominate someone who will overturn Roe v Wade (when he has said he thinks it should be overturned – see quotes below) you are severely mistaken.

    Re your medical issues remark, the far right doesn’t even want to allow abortion when the life of the mother is in danger. How is that “pro-life”? Ridiculous. (Setting aside that war is not a “pro-life” position.)

    Please read this article:
    http://www.doublespeakshow.com/2008/06/05/when-it-comes-to-womens-health-john-mccain-is-just-plain-out-of-touch/
    and this one:
    http://tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=3483eb20-9228-4700-9557-57a47a676e0b&p=1

    I thought Obama’s answer was right on: reduce unwanted pregnancies, which reduces abortions. More education, more contraceptives for those who want them. Plain old common sense.

    And McCain is not in any way an “independent in Republican clothes”, he is a conservative Republican. That is the “maverick” image he is promoting, though. Dig deeper and you will see the truth.

    “I do not support Roe verses Wade. It should be overturned.” (Sen. McCain, Associated Press, February 19, 2007).
    “I do believe that it’s very likely or possible that the Supreme Court should, could overturn Roe v. Wade”. (January 19, 2006).
    “If I am fortunate enough to be elected as the President of the United States, I pledge to you to be a loyal and unswerving friend of the right to life movement.” (Statement by Sen. McCain read by Sen. Brownback at the March for Life, Washington, DC, January 22, 2008).

  • Bruno: I hate emotional pandering. I’m a sucker for stories like the ones McCain tells, but feel completely betrayed when I find out I’ve been duped. Then I get mad. And you cannot win me back. Ever.

    I hope that most people that have been duped by this man will do the same.

  • #55.
    Sorry Bruno, I can’t be bullied….I agree with Obama’s mother who “would get mad at him if he ever picked on someone else”. I am all about compassion, and I have some for you. Jennifer, Hartford CT

  • Going way back to the beginning of the thread:

    Goldilocks, I just finished an overdue letter to another member of the TCBR family on the absurdity of 9/11 denialism. If you’d send me an e-mail (get my address from the profile on my blog, or, if Steve would be so kind, ask him for it) I’d like to send it to you as well. (If anyone else is falling for that particular crap, get the e-mail address from the blog — i won’t ask Steve to keep sending mine out — and I’ll copy it to you as well. I can’t argue ‘structural integrity’ but I can argue people, and the idea is, simply, nonsense.)

  • From the NY Times story:
    “The insinuation from the Obama campaign that John McCain, a former prisoner of war, cheated is outrageous,” Ms. Wallace said.

    WTF? That’s their official statement? Why don’t they just change their campaign slogan to “You have to vote McCain, he’s a former prisoner of war” and be done with it?

  • #63: That’s pretty much what he’s running on, yeah. Hasn’t got much else. Except that he’s a “maverick”.

  • MsMuddled, @61, beat me to it. I tend to take the Daily Kos stuff with a large grain of salt but, when NYTimes confirms it… Ms Seelye got one thing wrong:

    “Mr. McCain’s performance was well received, raising speculation among some viewers, especially supporters of Mr. Obama, that he was not as isolated during the Obama interview as Mr. Warren implied.”

    It’s not McCain’s *reception* that was suspicious — his positive reception had been assured, given the audience — it was his *delivery*, which was better than expected (as based on past events)
    And this quote had me in stitches:

    “Nicolle Wallace, a spokeswoman for Mr. McCain, said on Sunday night that Mr. McCain had not heard the broadcast of the event while in his motorcade and heard none of the questions.

    “The insinuation from the Obama campaign that John McCain, a former prisoner of war, cheated is outrageous,” Ms. Wallace said. ”

    POW!

    BTW. I don’t think think the wet chick (all drenched in tears and choked up by all the POW!POW!), is, necessarily, a LIEbermaniac, for all she’s from Connecticut. I think she’s one of the feral cats, aka PUMAs.

  • Sorry, the better response is:

    Former Representative Duke Cunningham is a true hero of the Vietnam War, a Top Gun pilot. He wouldn’t cheat!

    Oh, except that he’s in prison for accepting bribes.

  • A quote from the TIMES piece:
    ““The insinuation from the Obama campaign that John McCain, a former prisoner of war, cheated is outrageous,” Ms. Wallace said.
    (emphasis mine).

    Oh fergawdsakes, enough IS enough! Will someone out there who has access to better databases than i have please compile even a partial list of people who were both POWs and convicted of felonies. I know that, in Catholicism, martyrdom is considered to convey sainthood on a martyr, that dying for the faith wipes out your past sins — but you have to be dead for that to be true. Being tortured, or imprisoned doesn’t do it, religiously or secularly, and certainly not for sins committed after the person is released.

    Up until now I have accepted Obama’s continual honoring of McCain’s ‘heroism,’ despite the fact — to quote Rex Nutting (Washington editor of MARKET WATCH — not exactly MOTHER JONES or THE NATION) “[McCain’s] major accomplishment, in Vietnam and in the Senate, has been merely to survive.

    Just surviving doesn’t make you a hero, or a decent president.”
    (The whole piece is the most devastating destruction of the McCain myth. It’s at http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/why-mccain-would-mediocre-president/story.aspx?guid=%7B4914192B%2D12AF%2D4623%2DAB18%2D5EFE91204B04%7D&dist=msr_3 )

    But it’s time to stop treating having been a POW, even a heroic one, as a ‘free pass’ for EVERYTHING.

  • “Mr. McCain’s performance was well received, raising speculation among some viewers, especially supporters of Mr. Obama, that he was not as isolated during the Obama interview as Mr. Warren implied.”

    “Nicolle Wallace, a spokeswoman for Mr. McCain, said on Sunday night that Mr. McCain had not heard the broadcast of the event while in his motorcade and heard none of the questions.”

    “’The insinuation from the Obama campaign that John McCain, a former prisoner of war, cheated is outrageous,’ Ms. Wallace said. ”

    Maybe I’m nitpicking here, but isn’t there a difference between “supporters of Mr. Obama” and the “Obama campaign”?

  • Prup Murtha (a Democrat) is also a ‘war hero’ , more so than McCain ever could be, but he has been involved in some shady dealings as well. Just because he has not been indicted or convicted, doesn’t make him innocent (as republicans tend to claim when their own are in trouble)

  • I just telephoned Saddleback Church asking if they intend to condemn McCain’s cheating. They were closed, but if they return my call tomorrow, I will report to you. If they do, I’ll also bring up his ‘suspicious’ change of denominations.

  • You could see this was a set up a mile away. Just like you could see the 12 billion dollars sent shrink wrapped into a war zone from the moon if it were stacked on top of itself…meanwhile McCain is busy referencing 3million on some obscure DNA ape exploration. Notice none of the huge pork spending from the DOD was mentioned. Right wing set up made sure there was no mention of lobbyists or lying us into a war or politicalization of the DoJ. Nothing of the overwhelming power breaches of the executive branch under republican control. Driftglass say it best:

    “…After all, if the last 30 years of GOP politics has proven anything, it’s that Conservative horse-shit has a “strong influence on the weak-minded”.

    …1. Never trust these motherfuckers. Ever. They will never leave the business of winning and losing to anything that smells of “free and fair”, because they know if they do they’ll lose every time. Every game they run is crooked, every piety they utter is a lie, and every deck they deal from is stacked, marked and frozen.

    So…

    2. Never, ever fight them on ground of their choosing.

    PLEASE PLANT 1 & 2 FIRMLY IN YOU MEMORY so you will never forget.

    Feel like Charlie Brown running to kick that football Lucy is holding yet. How many ways do they have to cheat before you realize they can’t be trusted…ever…they think it’s okay to steal elections, to disenfranchise voters, to eve allow the SC to install them to power over the votes of the American people….you really think that a little thing like hearing the questions and Obama’s answers before hand (with so much riding on it) would be any kind of big deal to them…how fucking naive can you get.

    It accomplished 2 things 1) buffed that little turd of phony hypocrisy to an acceptable gloss, and 2)got a Christian church environment moderator’s nasty little foot in the door of our campaign process permanently. These mass murdering Jesus worshippers torture people and lie about it so cheating accounts for little to nothing in their moral scale.

    Now they can get busy with the viral emails threatening a “nation under Allah” if Obama is elected, now that the Christian base can say “I’ve got nothing against McCain…he gave good answers and seemed nice”. It won’t matter in the long run because too many people see through McCain and anyone basing their vote on that Saddleback jibberish hasn’t got the brains god gave a goose. Condone this war seeker at your own (and everybody else’s ) peril

  • And will somebody mention the story that he stole from Solzenytsin (sp)?

    I have contacted the NY Daily News as well. And I expect that Warren will jump on this, simply because no one likes to be made a fool of in public.

  • Oh please ###Democrat for McCain*** please google McCain and the USS Forrestal to see how dangerous this hot dogging “tough guy” actually is. McCain voted against raising the Min Wage, against SCHIP, and did nothing for the vets at Walter
    Reed even when they complained to him, voted against Martin Luther King holiday . His phony emotional appeal is filled with demonstrable hypocrisy. Unless you just don’t want to know. The man says exactly what he knows you want to hear and is filled with as many hateful, spiteful sadistic stories as he is ones to get you to cry. Buying into McCain based on that “performance” is extremely shallow given there is so much evidence to the contrary if you will but explore.

    Without good judgment ‘experience’ is just a reputation. McCain had 1 bad year he’s repeated 39 times as one commenter here expressed it. He’s had many years to do good but spent them trying to make himself look good. He’s never done community service like Obama, was never a community activist like Obama. He’s just grown fat cnd rich off the government tit getting $58k/yr in disability payments in spit of the fact he’s a millionaire with ten houses. Don’t be swayed by his phony emotional appeal…he would say and do anything to be president and if bullets started flying at him would grab your baby to shield himself from harm.

    As he demonstrates with this Georgian affair…McCain would rather start a war than lose an election…his top foreign policy adviser is and was an agent for a foreign government paid to lobby McCain and the US…he was the chairman for the PNAC group and the key promoter for the Iraq war/invasion. . McCain does not support any social program at all, not for the sick, the elderly or for children. He is an even worse disaster than Bush turned out to be and would get us all killed just to demonstrate how tough he thinks he is. Google USS Forrestal…take a good look at ths neocon radical.i

  • “Goldilocks, I just finished an overdue letter to another member of the TCBR family on the absurdity of 9/11 denialism.” — Prup @ 62

    I’d be very careful about using the phrase “absurdity of 9/11 denialism.” While many of the “alternative explanations” are indeed absurd and can be debunked, the official “explanations” leave much to be desired and, to this mind, require that I resign myself to leaving the matter open.

    I was in the sixth grade when Kennedy was assassinated, and to this day I cannot say with any confidence whatsoever that i believe the Warren Commission Report. Like a good scientist without access to the full, unadulterated data, i can only say that, based upon the available evidence, it is impossible to reach a conclusion.

    At one time, I happened to run across someone personally involved in the aftermath of the assassination, and even in advanced age would not reveal what he/she had witnessed. Why? She/he seemed to believe that carrying what he/she knew to her/his grave was his/her patriotic and honorable duty. If what she/he knew would have confirmed the conclustions of the Warren Commission, why would he/she not say so? I can speculate, but I don’t know.

    I feel similarly about the events of 9/11. We can speculate, but like any sufficiently complex sequence of events that shake the psyche, the full story is likely to remain unknown.

  • beep52: please write me. It is as absurd as creationism, Holocaust denial, or astrology, and I will defend this, only not here because we have more important things to do than exploding crank paranoias.

  • “beep52: please write me. It is as absurd as creationism, Holocaust denial, or astrology, and I will defend this, only not here because we have more important things to do than exploding crank paranoias.” — Prup @ 79

    If it’s all the same, and with due respect, I would rather keep the discussion open to the broader TCB audience. I personally reject any comparison of questioning the terrorist attacks of 9/11/01 to to creationism, Holocaust denial or astrology, but would love to hear the opinions of others as well.

    On one hand, what may or may not have transpired on that day may seem to have nothing to do with the most critical matter at hand — the election of a U.S. president. On the other, it has everything to do with the neo-conservative wet dream of a New American Century, which the presumptive Republican nominee has affirmed with regard to the Georgia/Russina situation, Syria, Iran and North Korea.

    My position is that we do not have enough information to reach a firm conclusion. If, however, i were to render an opinion based upon the actions and intent of Bush-Cheney-Rove-McCain-Gingrich-Addiington-Kaplan et al., the unthinkable becomes possible. Not probable, but possible.

  • Cheating and plagarism by John McCain aside, Obama did well to jump into this forum. While most seem to be saying ‘This is vintage John McCain’ or ‘This was John McCains forum’. This forum wasnt for everyone and both candidates did fine. While there was an element of risk for both McCain and Obama, they both came out unfazed and, in the long run, Obama better.

    Any real follower of Christian religion would look at Obama’s answers and see a clear preferable choice over McCain. The only Christian people who would choose McCain are the modern day faux Christians of the religious right which is essentially an ‘american exceptionlism, sacrifice free, capitalist friendly’ bastardized version of the core concepts. Christianity practiced by the right is nowhere near Jesus’ teachings and Obama did well among anyone who knows this. Unfortunately, the religious right wing of Christiany far outweighs (because its pandering, easy Christiany with no consequences for illegal, immoral and unethical behavior) true Christians who follow the real teachings of Christ.

    So McCain may have technically ‘won’, but he only won where he was expected to. Obama competed hard and came off much better.

    But, oh well, neither was beat up and so it goes.

  • The problem with contacting the church is that there is no proof that McCain cheated. It’s a pretty strong circumstantial case, but that’s it until more info comes out. On the other hand, it is irrefutable that Warren lied to his congregation every time he mentioned McCain being in a cone of silence. I’m going to write Larry King with my question for Warren: “How much of a sin is it for a pastor to repeatedly lie to his congregation on national TV?”

    The other thing that bothers me is whether this whole thing was an in-joke to begin with. I can’t help remembering that the “cone of silence” on Get Smart never actually worked.

  • An eye-watering quote from a McCain spokeswoman about the ‘cone of silence’ or lack thereof:

    “Nicolle Wallace, a spokeswoman for Mr. McCain, said on Sunday night that Mr. McCain had not heard the broadcast of the event while in his motorcade and heard none of the questions.

    “The insinuation from the Obama campaign that John McCain, a former prisoner of war, cheated is outrageous,” Ms. Wallace said.”

    What. The. Hell. Does. Being. A. POW. Have. To. Do. With. It?

  • “The insinuation from the Obama campaign that John McCain, a former prisoner of war, cheated is outrageous,” Ms. Wallace said.”

    What. The. Hell. Does. Being. A. POW. Have. To. Do. With. It?
    *********************************
    Well, if you are a military man or POW, then you can not be accused of anything wrong, UNLESS you’re name is John Kerry, or Max Cleland, or anyone else with a military service record and a “D” after your name.

    GOP = Total Rank Hypocrites

  • Walter Cronkite was once the most trusted man in America. What a sad commentary on the news media that they can’t produce anyone else worthy of the title.

  • In re Hanoi Hilton XMas story: I haven’t paid close attention to this story, but it never seemed to me clear that the guard was in fact a christian, or claimed to be, just cognizant that Hon. Sen. McCain was (dog tags list this, no?) and that it was Christmas. In any event, why would Senator McCain be singled out for this acknowledgement? and for just on year out of the many spent there.

    Like I said, I haven’t been paying close attention to this, and I’m not sure why it matters anyway, but the story raises these questions whenever I hear about the story.

    Given the he-said nature of this anecdote, I would say that it hasn’t been challenged simply because one looks callous doing so, ergo there’s too much downside risk.

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