Supreme Court rejects D.C. gun ban, finds individual right to gun ownership

It’s hard to believe that after over two centuries, the Supreme Court has never definitively ruled on whether the 2nd Amendment protects an individual’s right to “keep and bear arms.”

This morning, that changed.

The Supreme Court says Americans have a right to own guns for self-defense and hunting, the justices’ first major pronouncement on gun rights in U.S. history.

The court’s 5-4 ruling strikes down the District of Columbia’s 32-year-old ban on handguns as incompatible with gun rights under the Second Amendment. The decision goes further than even the Bush administration wanted, but probably leaves most firearms laws intact. […]

The basic issue for the justices was whether the amendment protects an individual’s right to own guns no matter what, or whether that right is somehow tied to service in a state militia.

The 5-4 split was fairly predictable. Scalia wrote the majority ruling, and was joined by Roberts, Alito, Kennedy, and Thomas. Stevens wrote the dissent, and was joined by Breyer, Souter, and Ginsburg. The full ruling is online (.pdf).

At issue, in addition to the broader 2nd Amendment question, was the District of Columbia strict gun-control law, which was also rejected by lower federal courts.

Scalia wrote the Constitution does not permit “the absolute prohibition of handguns held and used for self-defense in the home.” Stevens responded that the court’s majority “would have us believe that over 200 years ago, the Framers made a choice to limit the tools available to elected officials wishing to regulate civilian uses of weapons.” Such evidence “is nowhere to be found.”

When the AP noted that the decision “goes further than even the Bush administration wanted,” it was probably referring to the fact that the court decided that even the trigger lock requirement is unconstitutional.

The estimable Lyle Denniston’s piece helped, as always, provide some context.

Answering a 127-year old constitutional question, the Supreme Court ruled on Thursday that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to have a gun, at least in one’s home. The Court, splitting 5-4, struck down a District of Columbia ban on handgun possession.

Justice Antonin Scalia’s opinion for the majority stressed that the Court was not casting doubt on long-standing bans on carrying a concealed gun or on gun possession by felons or the mentally retarded, on laws barring guns from schools or government buildings, and laws putting conditions on gun sales.

In District of Columbia v. Heller (07-290), the Court nullified two provisions of the city of Washington’s strict 1976 gun control law: a flat ban on possessing a gun in one’s home, and a requirement that any gun — except one kept at a business — must be unloaded and disassembled or have a trigger lock in place. The Court said it was not passing on a part of the law requiring that guns be licensed. It said that issuing a license to a handgun owner, so the weapon can be used at home, would be a sufficient remedy for the Second Amendment violation of denying any access to a handgun.

Given the season, the next question, of course, is the political implications of the court’s decision.

John McCain, in an earlier version of himself, tacked towards the center on gun control, supporting an end to the gun-show loophole and announcing that he didn’t want the NRA to influence the Republican Party’s position on the issue. The current version of McCain, however, supported the case against the DC gun ban, and in a couple of minutes, will host a press conference to herald today’s decision.

As for Obama, the Democratic nominee hasn’t been especially vocal on the DC case, and at the last Democratic debate, said he hadn’t heard the arguments. A Chicago Tribune article from last November said the Obama campaign believed “the D.C. handgun law is constitutional,” but it did not quote the candidate directly. This morning, before the Supreme Court ruling was issued, Obama spokesman Bill Burton said, “That statement was obviously an inartful attempt to explain the Senator’s consistent position.”

“That statement was obviously an inartful attempt to explain the Senator’s consistent position.”

So, like FIXA, Obama has a “consistent position” to be revealed later?

Combine this Militia of One ruling with the Open Carry movement and it’s shaping up to be a wild wild west time in DC.

  • Let’s get busy prying their penis substitutes from their cold dead fingers. We’re overpopulated as it is, so reducing the number of homo saps is necessary.

  • Dale said:
    Combine this Militia of One ruling with the Open Carry movement and it’s shaping up to be a wild wild west time in DC.

    But not, of course, for the members of the Supreme Court. They’ll keep themselves safe behind metal detectors in their workplace.

  • Today, on Lessons of English Syntax:

    Scalia, Thomas, Alito and Roberts, being ideologues above all, the rights of the people shall be mischaracterized frequently.

  • Tom cleaver what logic did you use to come up with that reply. And by the way your right to post such brain dead responses is protected by the 2nd

  • Scalia says he’s a strict constitutionalist…

    if…so…

    how come he thinks people can own firearms OTHER THAN muskets?

  • DC will have a very strict gun license law up very shortly, as will New York. The real issue is the massive illegal gun trade in neighboring VA, which no amount of regulation in the District can mitigate.

    New York city therefore, may be far more drastically affected in terms of handgun deaths.

  • Well, one thing is for certain: memberships in well regulated militias will be declining.

  • when the 1st amendment was written the framers did not dream of Radio/Internet or email.

  • I have to go with the court on this one. Gun *control* (like registration, waiting periods, etc.) is one thing. An outright gun *ban* is something else, and I think it simply is not supported by the 2nd amendment.

  • This is an issue where the Left has historically kept its blinders on to its own detriment.

    In a perfect world, the police would show up very quickly after you call them, and then you would not need a gun. In the real world, the response times can be significant*. And anyone who thinks that a sane adult cannot be trusted to own a gun responsibly should also insist that we all be legally required to ride the bus, since cars kill a lot more people than guns do.

    I would hope that the reality-based community would also know that gun control only works on law-abiding people, who rarely constitute the actual problem. In England, where guns are almost completely illegal, there are still criminals with guns**, only they get to kill with the knowledge that their victims are rarely armed.

    * Average response time is about 9 minutes. And of course the maximum waiting time would be a lot longer than that.
    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C02E1DB1039F933A25757C0A960958260

    ** http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2324223.ece

  • An outright gun *ban* is something else, and I think it simply is not supported by the 2nd amendment. -Shade Tail

    What part of ‘well regulated’ is not applicable to an area restriction? The ban never prevented DC residents from owning guns…they just can’t have them inside the DC area. By the logic of this ruling, they shouldn’t be allowed to ban guns from other areas, like inside of the, oh say, Supreme Court.

    How can you rationalize registration, waiting periods, and background checks but not support an area restriction as part of regulation?

  • This ruling did nothing to strike down sensible gun laws like waiting periods and background checks. In fact, the court went out of its way to point this out. Local governments should feel free to strengthen such laws…increase waiting periods…improve the mental health portions of background checks…mandate firearm safety courses for all first time gun buyers and add licence renewals like we have for drivers licences…mandate that every four or five years all gun owners must retake the safety course.

    I personally agree with this decision. Individuals have the Constitutional right to bear arms. People should be able to make their own decisions about gun ownership. I personally choose not to own a gun, but I don’t expect others to reach the same conclusion.

  • Tom Cleaver [#2]: “Let’s get busy prying their penis substitutes from their cold dead fingers.”

    Believe me, if I could knock a tin can off a fence post from 30 yards away with my penis, I wouldn’t need a handgun.

  • I disagree and agree with Supreme Crackheads on this one.
    DC’s ban makes sense- remember the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan? That’s all we need is 50 mofos storming the gates if they don’t like what sen. X says one day.

    The other cities bans were probably overkill.

  • And another thing…I tend to be liberal in my views of many issues, but on this one I think liberals have it wrong. Gun advocates are correct to point out that only law abiding citizens would be without guns if we banned ownership. Anyone prone to breaking other laws would certainly have no problem purchasing an illegal gun…especially knowing that his chances of running into an armed home owner would be very low.

    Again, strengthen license and purchasing requirements and mandate regular license renewal that includes retaking gun safety courses.

  • As a DC resident I am not thrilled. But then for me it isn’t as much of a Constitutional issue as practical one. Of course I think many people are stupid and careless with all of their possessions (and sometimes most especially with weapons) – regardless of where they live or what the laws are. I have little faith that they will actually learn how to use them proficiently, store them correctly, and educate the family (especially any kids) stringently.

    It seems to me that most people who buy guns “for protection” really buy the illusion of “protection.” I have always felt that it was more a false sense of security.

  • People should be able to make their own decisions about gun ownership. -independent thinker

    Please, people, understand that an area restriction is not a prohibition. It’s not a blanket ban on gun ownership for the entire country. It’s a restriction on where you can posses a gun.

    The court has opened up a can of worms on this one.

    I await the case of a Gun Nut vs. United when he’s not allowed to take his precious Five seveN on his cross country flight.

  • racer x, maybe you should read the links you’re providing. in a typical year in england (population 1/5 of the US), it appears that south of 100 people are killed by guns; in a typical year in america, it appears that 40,000 people are killed by guns.

    ET puts it best: the idea that if someone who comes and robs your house has a gun, you are better off if you have a gun too is an illusion of protection. amateurs waving guns at professionals are not at an advantage….

  • I can see Shade Tail #10’s point, but there’s no real distinction between gun controls and bans, is there? I mean, the latter is an extreme instance of the former.

    And we certainly don’t want people lugging battle ship cannons around and shooting them off, do we? How do you distinguish between a ban on handguns and those monsters?

    Admittedly, I haven’t read the ruling, and maybe those questions are answered.

    The trigger lock thing strikes me as curious, but again, I haven’t read the ruling.

    I’m satisfied as long as we are free to formulate sensible gun controls, and this ruling does not seem to prohibit that. And I’m on the side of those who don’t care for guns.

  • Gun advocates are correct to point out that only law abiding citizens would be without guns if we banned ownership. -independent thinker

    You realize more crimes are committed with legally owned guns or guns that were once legally owned and stolen, though, right? Eliminate those, and you make it harder to get a gun. I’m not naive enough to believe it would be impossible by any means, but it would help, and ultimately I am not for an outright prohibition of gun ownership anyway. Just restriction on where you can possess them.

    Oh, and you know who else wouldn’t have a gun? That three year old who shot himself in Joliet, IL yesterday.

  • There are a number of solutions to this:

    1.) It is unconstitutional to require trigger locks—but it is not unconstitutional to make leaving an unattended firearm within a child’s ability to access that firearm a felony.

    2.) It is unconstitutional to bar ownership of a firearm—but it is not unconstitutional to make the possession and/or ownership of an unlicensed firearm a felony.

    DC can easily pass ordinances requiring certification prior to gun ownership. They can make it a crime to sell a weapon to anyone without that certification. They can require anyone entering the District to have a DC-issued permit as a prerequisite to bringing a firearm into the District, and they can institute the penalty of that weapon being confiscated and summarily destroyed if it is not registered.

    There are a lot of ways DC can effectively regulate without crossing the constructionist threshold….

  • Well when the rest of our Constitutional rights get stomped on like the FISA bill did, you’ll be glad we have our guns to fight back with.

    I’m okay with this decision, especially with the exceptions cited in the majority opinion.

  • ET (#18)

    I hear you…I really do. And to a certain point I agree with you. Many people make stupid decisions. That is why municipal governments should enact strict laws that require long waiting periods, extensive background checks and gun safety courses prior to purchase…AND regular renewals of gun licenses which require retaking the safety course every few years, say four years for instance.

    I really hate the idea of government telling me what to do and how to live my life…what I can and cannot buy…who I can marry…etc. In many ways these are all interconnected. In a democracy the individual is sacred. Rights reside with the individual. The fact that a gun can be used to kill doesn’t by itself constitute a reason to ban them. Heck, knives can kill. So can fire. So can a car.

  • Thinker,

    While the framers were very clear in saying there should be “no law” abridging freedom of speech, they did not use the “no law” phrase with regard to the people’s right to bear arms. They could have easily written Congress shall make “no law” abridging the people’s right to bear arms, but they chose the substantially more subjective “infringed.”

    I believe that people have a right to own guns. I also believe that the Constitution does not clearly state how that right can be regulated, and I would not see a law requiring a “trigger lock” to be an “infringement”. The arms are kept and ready to bear, they simply are less accessible to children.

    That said, the problem is states that don’t regulate their gun trade at all! Virginia revels in it’s complete laxity regarding gun laws, because it makes them a lot of money. The real problem isn’t the SCOTUS knocking down the gun ban, because regulatory laws can still be put in place to keep guns out of the hands of people who shouldn’t have them.

    If you need a hammer, or better yet if you want to sell them illegally in a city like DC, you can just hop in a car to Virginia.

  • What we are missing is the real intent, the WHY the Framers put this into the Constituion.

    Was it really about the the thing, the gun, or the concept of checks and balances?

    Any government, even one of the “people’ may become so corrupted that the “people” need to defend themselves against it, but only after all the other means have been exhausted.
    A declaration of the ultimate check and balance, that Government should never have more power than its people.
    But gun rights have been turned into a token, a steak thrown into the yard so the thief can walk right past the guard dog. The gun lobby knows this, and raises gun rights as the only right worth defending, while we lose free speech, habeus corpus, freedom of assembly……
    A diversion while they steal our government, and our souls away.

    But Ghandi showed us, you do not need guns to overthrow oppression.

  • The fact that a gun can be used to kill doesn’t by itself constitute a reason to ban them. Heck, knives can kill. So can fire. So can a car. -independent thinker

    Yeah, rocks can kill people, smog, even air if injected into the vein! Wow, let’s make list of things that can kill people.

    Now, let’s narrow the list down to things whose primary purpose is to kill. Much shorter list of items, and those items require extreme regulation.

    How an isolated area restriction doesn’t count as regulation is beyond me and I haven’t seen any of the disappointing supporters here even attempt to explain it beyond their statement of agreement.

    This is a very stupid and dangerous ruling, and I would suggest people really think about it’s implications.

  • I would Pay to see the Fascist bloombergs and Dailys face right now. God bless America
    God bless the great warrior of freedom Scalia. Today has Proven that evil cannot prevail

  • doubtful (22)

    Yes. And that is not relavent IMO. If someone steals my car and kills someone while driving it does that mean we should ban car ownership? Of course not. If someone breaks into my house and steals my 10 inch german cutlery and uses one of the knives to kill someone, does that mean we should ban cutlery? Of course not.

  • doubtful @ #12: “What part of ‘well regulated’ is not applicable to an area restriction?”

    What part of “the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed” **is** applicable to an area restriction? ‘Well regulated’ covers those control ideas I listed. But like it or not, the Constitution says quite bluntly that people may ‘keep and bear arms’.

    And, regarding your own example, you are making a false equivalence between the right to have a gun in your own home, or even out in public, versus the right to bring a gun into the Supreme Court. Taking a weapon into someone else’s house or business is not the same thing as having one in yours.

    hark @ #21: “there’s no real distinction between gun controls and bans, is there? I mean, the latter is an extreme instance of the former.

    …? There is a very obvious distinction. Gun control still lets you have a gun. Gun bans do not.

  • I’d like to note to Shade Tail and independent thinker that they are on the same side of this issue as the esteemed Lee at comment 31. That alone should give you sufficient pause to rethink your stance.

  • doubtful (#19) said:

    “I await the case of a Gun Nut vs. United when he’s not allowed to take his precious Five seveN on his cross country flight”

    I’m not sure what a Five seveN is, but it can be taken on a cross country flight as long as it is legally owned, in the luggage and follows certain rules. Unless that person is exempt (LEO, etc.) he or she cannot carry it on board. Nothing in the ruling negates any of this.

  • But like it or not, the Constitution says quite bluntly that people may ‘keep and bear arms’. -Shade Tail

    It doesn’t say where you can keep and bear them. That is up to legislation. If it said ‘keep and bear in your home,’ or ‘keep and bear on your person,’ you might have a point. It doesn’t say that, so you don’t.

    And, regarding your own example, you are making a false equivalence between the right to have a gun in your own home, or even out in public, versus the right to bring a gun into the Supreme Court. -Shade Tail

    Since when it the Supreme Court not a public building?

    Again, and you’re never going to get it, so really why bother, there is no gun ban. No matter how many times you frame it that way, there is no gun ban. Only a restriction on where you can have a gun you own.

    People who live in DC can own a gun as long as they store it outside of the DC area.

  • This really should never have been an issue…telling people they don’t have the right to have a gun in their home…now if the SC will just rule on the bullets I think we got something.

    I wonder if many people want to own guns to protect themselves from the government and its agents or from other gun owners? If you shoot someone breaking into your home you get arrested for using deadly force but it does seem to make one feel less paranoid.
    Tanks and Bazookas and 50cal machine guns though should be against the law in city dwellings eh….collateral damage and all. Besides isn’t it usually the home gun owner that gets shot by his own weapon?

    I just don’t get why this was ever a law in the first place but I don’t live in DC. The law never affected us in the mid west.

  • Racer X:

    Perhaps you want to include other data in your analysis, such as:

    U.S. Leads Richest Nations In Gun Deaths

    BY CHELSEA J. CARTER
    THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

    ATLANTA — The United States has by far the highest rate of gun deaths — murders, suicides and accidents — among the world’s 36 richest nations, a government study found.
    The U.S. rate for gun deaths in 1994 was 14.24 per 100,000 people. Japan had the lowest rate, at .05 per 100,000. Tokyo is the safest major city in the world. Only 59,000 licensed gun owners live in Tokyo.[25] Per one million inhabitants, Tokyo has 40 reported muggings a year; New York has 11,000.[26] The handgun murder rate is at least 200 times higher in America than Japan.[27] The official homicide rate in Japan in 1988 was 1.2 homicide cases per 100,000 population, while in America it was 8.4 homocide cases per 100,000.[28]
    The study, done by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, is the first comprehensive international look at gun-related deaths. It was published Thursday in the International Journal of Epidemiology.
    The CDC would not speculate why the death rates varied, but other researchers said easy access to guns and society’s acceptance of violence are part of the problem in the United States.
    “If you have a country saturated with guns — available to people when they are intoxicated, angry or depressed — it’s not unusual guns will be used more often,” said Rebecca Peters, a Johns Hopkins University fellow specializing in gun violence. “This has to be treated as a public health emergency.”
    *********************************
    And that was in 1998. Why no data from the preeminent Public Health Agency in the world, the CDC, after that, you may ask? Because the pro-gun lobby and their friends in Congress have silenced the CDC from publishing any of their data on gun-related deaths and violence. If there is nothing to hide, why are they hiding it? The data is what the data is. But you can’t see it because you might reach some conclusions that the NRA crowd wouldn’t like, and they have more money and power to lobby (aka ‘bribe’) than you, so they win.

    Also, consider that it is not only Japan that has very strong gun control, and a very low murder rate. Hong Kong has very strong gun control and very low murder rate. Greece has very strict gun control laws, low murder rate…

    How many children in schools are sprayed with bullets in these countries, and how often, compared to the US? Guess what? You’ll never know!

    Just who benefits from this prohibition of publication and lack of public information?… Not we the people, that’s for sure. Not the murder victims who were shot to death. But I thought an informed citizenry was the basis of a functioning democracy, and that the NRA and weapons manufacturers were ALL ABOUT upholding our Constitution and our great American values like Democracy and Freedom! But apparently that’s only when by doing so, it serves THEIR purposes and fattens their wallets. Surprise, surprise!

  • doubtful (29)

    How an isolated area restriction doesn’t count as regulation is beyond me and I haven’t seen any of the disappointing supporters here even attempt to explain it beyond their statement of agreement.

    The fact remains that in a gun free zone the only people who have guns are criminals. And don’t you think they know it?

    Look, I not some gun waiving loony. I don’t even own a gun. But have the right to make that decision for myself. And if I choose to own one I should be able to keep it in my home…no matter where that home is. If I lived in DC and abided by the law (prior to it being struck down) and an armed burgler broke into my home while I slept, I would not have a tool in my self protection kit. I don’t know about you, but if some guy with a gun walked into my bedroom with my wife sleeping next to me, I’d shoot him if I had a gun. Without hesitation.

    And trust me, if I owned a gun everyone in my household would take a gun safety course.

  • I’m not sure what a Five seveN… -mikeyes

    It’s a pretty popular gun from Fabrique Nationale with collectors that uses a more expensive round than more common 9mm or 45mm.

    But you miss my point. What’s to prevent the fictional person in question from arguing he has the right to keep and bear his arms on his person. Now that area restrictions have been determined unconstitutional, nothing.

    Nothing in the ruling negates any of this. -mikeyes

    No, that’s for the next ruling, like I implied when I said there would be a case. This ruling just did the setup work by making area restrictions unconstitutional.

  • #12 doubtful said

    The ban never prevented DC residents from owning guns…they just can’t have them inside the DC area.

    Ummm…there is a key here, and that is if I live in DC, and I can’t have a gun in DC, then I cannot use it to protect my home. Also, where am I supposed to store my gun if I can’t keep it at my house?

  • I know a lot of people on this site are not in favor of individual rights to firearms. But I also know that if D.C.’s 32 year ban on guns had actually resulted in reduction of crime and violence, the police wouldn’t have been discussing setting up Baghdad style checkpoints into certain high crime areas.

    That’s my 2 cents. Killing is never the answer, but disarming law abiding citizens opens up the populace to criminals who buy illicitly obtained weapons from drug dealers (or steals them) to terrorize us at will.

    Those that vigorously disagree, like doubtful who is out in full force here, should accept something though. Neither one of us has the answer because taking guns away from law abiding citizens has not reduced crime, nor has giving them access to guns reduced crime. But rather than be told how wrong i am, i accept your arguments as you can defend them with a much greater scholastic aptitude than i can present my position. But no obvious solution will spring forth.

    And before i am called “illiterate” once again, I know it is not correct to begin sentences with the word “but”. I just don’t care.

  • Well when the rest of our Constitutional rights get stomped on like the FISA bill did, you’ll be glad we have our guns to fight back with.

    This is the height of cynical. And I totally agree*.

    chrenson @ 14 – quote of the day.

    * I do not personally own weapons, and the concealed-carry law in Ohio did NOT result in “wild wild west.” The only notable change was the gun nuts finally shut the hell up.

  • “. . . the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.”

    This is most curious. It presupposes a right in the first place, doesn’t it? What is that right? Do we have a right to “keep” other forms of property that, like guns, seems to be implied, rather than stated? And if so, does that mean our rights to keep all other forms of property can be infringed, except for guns? If so, isn’t that bizarre? The only form of property we can feel really secure about is a gun? They couldn’t have meant that. But then what did they mean?

    This is really a most peculiar amendment. I wish there were some way we could find out exactly what they meant by it.

  • amateurs waving guns at professionals are not at an advantage

    1) the “professionals” of which you speak so highly are rarely very intelligent. If they were they wouldn’t be risking their lives by becoming burglars.

    2) If you think an armed person in their own home doesn’t have an advantage over an intruder who has no idea where anything is, then you’re on crack and should seek help immediately.

    BTW, most of the gun deaths are caused by people who will (and do) ignore gun laws just as they ignore the laws against killing people. Wishing that guns will disappear will not make it so, just as wishing the cops would arrive quickly will not make it so, especially in the event of any kind of wide-scale emergency.

  • Tom Cleaver you lost get over it the Constitution won. Next lost will be for osama obama.

    Tom cleaver if you liberals think you can defeat America & Israel then try but in the end America & Israel will defeat islam/socialism and the dnc.

    Why do the democrats back racist Gun control laws started by the kkk?????

  • The fact remains that in a gun free zone the only people who have guns are criminals. And don’t you think they know it? -independent thinker

    I’m not buying the boogeyman argument. How do you explain how countries with gun bans have lower per capita rates of gun violence? Those facts and your facts don’t jive.

    How do you explain that nearly all gun crimes committed in the states are done with perfectly legal weapons or weapons that were stolen?

    I don’t know about you, but if some guy with a gun walked into my bedroom with my wife sleeping next to me, I’d shoot him if I had a gun. Without hesitation. -independent thinker

    Yes, yes, we all love to be the hero, but that scenario isn’t real. It doesn’t happen. While you’re dreaming, you might as well say you’ll also beat Micheal Jordan in a one-on-one basketball game. You say ‘without hesitation,’ but really? Have you ever pointed a gun at a human being before? Do you really think you have what it takes?

    Because a lot of people don’t, and they end up dead, and guess what, that perfectly legal gun you bought for protection now belongs to the guy who killed you. He’ll sell it for a couple hundred (unless it’s a Five SeveN, he could get a grand for easy, haha) and the next thing you know (well, you don’t because you’re dead) is someone else dies after being shot with your gun.

    Ask yourself, who’s scenario is more realistic?

    I would not have a tool in my self protection kit. -independent thinker

    The police are that tool.

    And trust me, if I owned a gun everyone in my household would take a gun safety course. -independent thinker

    Yeah, too bad that three year old who shot themselves in Joliet, IL yesterday hadn’t finished his gun safety course yet.

  • To mikeyes

    A Five seveN is a pistol which shoots 5.7x28mm rifle round that was developed in conjuction with the P90(rifle) to replace the NATO 9mm PDW(personal defense weapon) systems used currently(actually back in the 90s).

    The 5.7 round is expensive but is very low recoil and shoot about the same projectile that the AR15/M16 does (5.56x45mm). I’m very much interested in getting the civilian version of the rifle, the PS90 because it looks pretty cool and futuristic, but I am definitely going to pick up a Five seveN pistol because not only does is fire rifle rounds, you can buy a 20round magazine for it. That’s just awesome for a pistol.

  • Ugh. I hate reading about guns on liberal sites. It’s like reading about abortion on conservative sites: too many people have such a strong, absolute opinion that any facts that don’t support that opinion are either ignored or distorted beyond all recognition.

    Steve@24 nailed it: the majority went out of their way to clarify that they are not striking down regulations on the purchase, possession, or licensing of guns. Those things are fine. It’s the blanket prohibition that is not fine.

    Now, I have mixed feelings about gun ownership, especially in urban areas. I tend to think that the bar for ownership should be very high, in the form of background checks and massive, massive liability requiring the posting of a significant bond. But I’ll acknowledge that it’s a tough question, and I think it requires more serious discussion than people are probably capable of.

    I mean, this opens the door to guns on airplanes? A “desirable” result is all that matters, no matter what the Constitution says?

    I did read the decision, and let me tell you, the majority opinion was well written and cogent. The minority opinion, indeed, boils down to “guns are a serious problem in society, so the Constitution can’t possibly say what the majority thinks it does.” No matter what you think about the issue, you have to see just how weak and ends-justify-the-means that is.

    I would seriously consider supporting a an amendment that either outlawed guns or paved the way for very, very restrictive rules about ownership. I’m not so wild about encouraging the courts to use the Constitution as a Rorschach test, seeing whatever they need to see in it to support my (or anyone else’s) positions.

  • “I’d like to note to Shade Tail and independent thinker that they are on the same side of this issue as the esteemed Lee at comment 31. That alone should give you sufficient pause to rethink your stance.”

    It would, if I considered the “guilt by association” version of the ad hominem fallacy to be valid. Please resort to logic and reason when arguing against my points, if you are capable of it.

    “It doesn’t say where you can keep and bear them. That is up to legislation.”

    This betrays a very basic misunderstanding on your part about the Constitution. It is a limit on governmental power, not on the rights of the people, and legislation may not violate those rights.

    “Since when it the Supreme Court not a public building?”

    Since when do irrelevant points manage to disprove things that they have nothing to do with?

    “…there is no gun ban…

    “People who live in DC can own a gun as long as they store it outside of the DC area.”

    So, there isn’t a gun ban, just a gun ban in DC.

  • Shade Tree #33, I’m sorry, but a ban is an instance of control, by any stretch of the language. Banning handguns, but not shot guns or rifles is not gun control? Please.

  • The only problem with guns, when you look at it from the viewpoint that guns are a “tool”, it is unlike other tools.

    While many tools may have more than one function or use, firearms can only fulfill their purpose through destruction. If life is sacred to you, it makes you consider long and hard the implications of pointing one at another human being, or any living creature for that matter.

    That said, i love my guns.

  • Any bans or laws which make it hard on law abiding citizens and easy on criminals is Unconstitutional

  • 1) the “professionals” of which you speak so highly are rarely very intelligent. If they were they wouldn’t be risking their lives by becoming burglars. -Racer X

    Haha, most burglaries take place when the people aren’t at home, and most during the day. And you know what one of the things most burglars look for first is? Guns. And guess what happens when you come home and interrupt them. You get shot with your own gun.

    2) If you think an armed person in their own home doesn’t have an advantage over an intruder who has no idea where anything is, then you’re on crack and should seek help immediately. -Racer X

    I don’t think an armed person has an advantage, even in their own home, over a career criminal. Maybe a teenager on their first B&E, but someone who has been doing it a while, nah. Who do you think will hesitate to shoot?

    That’s just awesome for a pistol. -DB

    Just make sure you NEVER shoot reloads through it, or you’ll blow your hand off. I know it’s tempting because those rounds are pricey, but there is a lot of force behind those rounds, way more than 9mm, and the gun is, well, it’s made of plastic. If there is even a slight defect in the casing, it’ll fire out of battery and boom!

  • DC is the District of Capitulation. Either capitulating to a thug with a gun or a Rethuglican with his finger in his pocket pretending it’s a gun.

  • doubtful

    I do shoot reloads. I make them with my friends dad who used to do the reloading for our police department. You are correct, in the danger, we double check our powder loads before inserting the projectiles.

    You are also correct that the gun is made of plastic, just like my glock 23. Also like my glock 23, the barrel is made of steel.

    But on your point of reloaded reliability, i wholeheartedly agree. I only shoot them at the range. I buy top quality new manufactured ammo for when I carry, for those same reliability issues. I am glad to see you are knowledgeable in the art of the ‘opposition’, it does you much credit.

  • Brooks – guns like abortion is an issue that everyone has an opinion on and the nutters on both sides frequently don’t think said opinions out and they even less rarely think the issues though.

    For example, I hear a lot of people in states like Montana and Wyoming where there are a lot of people with guns go well our crime/murder rate is low because we have guns. Meaning that places like DC have high rates of both because there are gun ownership restrictions. I’m sorry but I just don’t buy the thought that criminals that want to rape, murder, kill, etc. are going to somehow be deterred from you and your home because you may have a gun in the house. I just don’t. I would think that poverty and population density and similar issues has more to do with crime statistics than does legal ownership of guns.

    Doubtful – good answers to RacerX

  • And hunting? What defense do animals have? Who’s taking their side of this barbarous, demeaning activity?
    OK, a namby-pamby hyper-liberal question, but why should they not enjoy some status and protection in the law as well? Countries and locations where hunting is banned enjoy a fabulously rich wildlife tantamount to a paradise. Why deny ourselves such pleasure and wealth for the sake of a few sick so-called ‘sports’ fanatics? These people don’t hunt out of necessity for food, they merely indulge a perverted addiction to killing.

  • GuyFromOhio said:
    * I do not personally own weapons, and the concealed-carry law in Ohio did NOT result in “wild wild west.” The only notable change was the gun nuts finally shut the hell up.

    DC has millions of poor people crammed into a few square miles. So that’s a little different from Ohio. But I suspect that everyone in DC who wants a gun, has a gun already.

  • It would, if I considered the “guilt by association” version of the ad hominem fallacy to be valid. Please resort to logic and reason when arguing against my points, if you are capable of it. -Shade Tail

    I’ve given you logic. The comment you’ve taken such offense to was made in jest.

    This betrays a very basic misunderstanding on your part about the Constitution. It is a limit on governmental power, not on the rights of the people, and legislation may not violate those rights. -Shade Tail

    So the legislation can’t restrict our right to keep an bear arms in any way? But earlier you argued that regulations like background checks were okay. That’s not consistent with this argument. Either the legislature can restrict gun ownership or they cannot. You can’t have it both ways.

    And no, I’m not misunderstanding the Constitution. There is a clause saying gun ownership will be well regulated. We’re simply having a disagreement on the scope of that regulation.

    Since when do irrelevant points manage to disprove things that they have nothing to do with? -Shade Tail

    I was responding to what you said directly, so I’m not sure how it’s irrelevant?

    And, regarding your own example, you are making a false equivalence between the right to have a gun in your own home, or even out in public, versus the right to bring a gun into the Supreme Court. -Shade Tail

    You said it was false to equate ‘public’ with ‘Supreme Court’ to which I replied that the Supreme Court was a public building. Why is that irrelevant?

    So, there isn’t a gun ban, just a gun ban in DC. -Shade Tail

    The argument is the right to own guns is not outright prohibited, just regulated or restricted.

    I am glad to see you are knowledgeable in the art of the ‘opposition’, it does you much credit. -DB

    Thanks, I appreciate that. I’ve read so much about reloads causing problems with the Five SeveNs, so be careful if you get one. And I agree with you, the PS90 is cool looking.

    I do, however, prefer not to think of gun owners as the opposition. I don’t want to prohibit guns. I just think we’ve got a long way to go to satisfy the ‘well regulated’ part of the 2nd, and this decision is a regression, in my opinion, and not supported by the Constitution or consistently applicable.

  • Goldilocks

    Who calls hunting a “barbarous, demeaning activity”, just pray tell do think of stockyards and slaughterhouses? In my opinion the above label applies if not more because of the scale of death that ensues under the auspices of providing America with big macs.

    I do not hunt, nor like killing. I just like shooting because it is somewhat satisfying to reach out and touch something. And guns are fascinating to my mechanically inclined mind, to the degree that technology is concerned.

  • Having long been a proponant of gun control, the last eight years has proven to me that we do, indeed, need the right to own guns and to become our own militia.

    I have feared for the last couple of years that We The People are going to have to rely on those we once labeled nuts; the militias out in Montana and other places who fear and loathe the government.

    I fear and loathe this government now. Don’t you?

    I no longer want gun control. And I am about as left leaning as it gets…if I leaned any further left I would fall over. But I am also a very pragmatic person.

  • doubtful

    I think that you and I have found our common ground. I totally agree that gun owners should be held to a higher standard than others. And to meet those higher standards requires a good degree of education on the subject. And some of us are lacking in that area, but a large, not quite vast(though i am generalizing here) do understand all these implications and practice safety first.

    I think you would agree that there is no such thing as a gun ‘accident’, there is only gun ‘negligence’ when firearms are involved. When you have a weapon, you have not only the responsibility to handle it safely, but a responsibility to others in the vicinity you are in, whether that is at the range or in a populated neighborhood you reside in. Some people just cannot meet this higher standard of responsibility(e.g. leaving weapons accessible to children which results in preventable tragedy).

    If the 2nd amendment gives us the right to own guns, then legislation may explain to us the higher standard required for ownership. That said, there must be a balance, as in everything else(like our quickly eroding right to privacy). It is in finding this balance that we are currently stuck, with both sides drawing the battle lines. Unfortunately it is ideology that most often is cited for both sides reasoning, when the definition of ideology does not hold the capacity for reason.

  • DB
    I too enjoyed shooting as a youth. I was a damn good shot and got a lot of satisfaction from it.
    Once, as a postgrad biology assistant, I had to collect blood from a slaughter house. What I saw was so horrific I became a vegetarian soon afterwards, and remained so for twelve years. In the end I found reconciliation and returned to meat eating, on the basis that the animals were bred for food, killed more or less humanly, and that I was able to offer a prayer for their better rebirth before I partook of their flesh.
    Hunting is barbarous and demeaning, in my opinion, because it serves no purpose other than the dubious pleasure of inflicting injury and death. In addition to that it creates a very unkind, unloving, unwholesome and unappreciative attitude to other sentient beings. I know some religions regard animals as soulless entities that exist only to serve man and his whims. I don’t subscribe to that view. I see animals as having mind, feelings, emotions and suffering pain and enjoying comfort, security and happiness in the same way that we do. To ignore that and feel no empathy in regard to them, to my mind, can only be demeaning.

  • Goldilocks

    pretty good answer. I will say the first time i shot an animal while trying to hunt was some birds out of a tree about a year ago. I felt empty. I have since realized that all life is sacred and none is replaceable.

  • doubtful (#48) said:
    Do you really think you have what it takes?

    Yes. Yes I do. I would pull the trigger if some jerk-off broke into my home while my loved ones and I were there. Absolutely.

    And regarding FISA, which someone above mentioned: this latest FISA bill with immunity for the telcos is not the real problem. Sure, in an ideal situation I’d want to be able to sue them, but that is really a red herring. The real problem is the Patriot Act, which broke down the wall between intelligence and civil courts. Daily KOS has a great piece on this.

  • I’ve long been an advocate for gun control. My motto has always been “Guns don’t kill people. People with guns do.” But, the problems we anti-gun folk face are pretty simple:

    1] Two centuries ago our fore-fathers included an amendment to the Constitution that, as it is written, has a drastically different meaning today.

    2] The gun lobby is well-funded, well-managed and able to disseminate talking points to Joe Shotgun faster than a speeding bullet.

    3] Gun advocates are armed and easy to anger, so what’s the point of arguing?

    The way I see it this horse left the barn a century ago and we’ll never get the reigns on him again.

  • Goldilocks said:

    Hunting is barbarous and demeaning, in my opinion, because it serves no purpose other than the dubious pleasure of inflicting injury and death.

    I respectfully disagree, Goldilocks. Many people who hunt, eat what they kill. Are there people who hunt just for the thrill of the kill? Of course. But that doesn’t make ALL hunting barbarous. I have known many hunters and every one of them had a great respect for nature.

    There is something else to consider. Because of human encoachment, many herd animals no longer face enough predators to keep their numbers down naturally. Left unchecked, those herds would swell and there would not be enough resources to feel them all. Starvation and desease would be the result along with greater intrusions into urban zones and farms etc. as the animals searched for food.

  • everyone here is missing the far huger implication of this ruling, that black people may own guns. forget a black man running for president. a black man able to defend himself in his home legally? now that’s a big leap forward.

  • Because I am just back from a physical therapy session I haven’t read all the comments here closely, so apologies to anyone who I am echoing. (Brooks, yours was one I read and so far is the closest to my own opinion.)

    I think the most important thing to realize is that there really are two valid perspectives on this, and that both make sense — depending on where you live. And we’ll never get a sensible solution passed unless we can somehow realize both perspectives and work with both of them. (I will not discuss the ‘everybody should have a right to own a bazooka’ or ‘if everybody went around armed, there would be less gun violence’ perspectives, which are not valid and are simply nutty.)

    But, well, I’m an Easterner, someone whose lived in a city my entire adult life. For me, and for most city people in almost any city, guns are only seen as ‘what are used in drive-by shootings, or in robberies, or that a kid brings to school, or that one kid shoots another ‘playing around,’ or that somebody goes nuts and shoots up a post office or a school with.’ We never have hunted — except, for a minority — strictly for ‘sport,’ we wouldn’t if we were given the chance, and probably couldn’t pull the trigger if we did. We might be curious about trying a shooting club, for sport, but we — and those of us who are hunters — see no reason NOT to keep the guns at the club, locked up.

    Even those of us, I’d guess, who think they have to own a gun for their own protection would probably rather see all guns banned — if we believed it would be possible. (And, no, I’m not among that ‘we.’)

    And none of us probably have a property even a tenth large enough for us to set up a shooting range on it without being a serious danger.

    But someone from a rural area may very well hunt for food — as well, perhaps, as for sport. They do have fewer gun crimes — though more than you’d think — because they don’t have to deal with the pressure of a large, compressed population, a vast disparity of incomes — or with a society that DOESN’T stress neighborly cooperation — or concentrated gangs with deadly rivalries. (And I would expect that gun accidents don’t get nearly the publicity in these areas compared to the cities, but that’s just speculation.)

    They may very well have enough land to set up a target shooting range on their own property safely. They have grown up with guns and see them as positives as certainly and with as much reason as the urbanites see them as negatives.

    And, finally, they frequently live at considerable distance from a town, or with a town with a poorly manned police department, so they are not even theoretically in a position to alert the police so they could arrive during a crime — even if they have an electronic warning system.

    Somehow, there has to be a reasonable system that can make sense to both sides, and which can alleviate the problems and fears on both sides.

    Next post — which may be late — and I’ll propose one.

    (Oh, one minor thing — did this decision mean that the Second Amendment is now ‘incorporated’ into the fundamental rights that apply to states as well as to Congress? Did Scalia specifically discuss this?)

  • independent hunter said

    “Because of human encroachment, many herd animals no longer face enough predators to keep their numbers down naturally.”

    And so a problem we caused is justification for our solution to said problem.

    I’m not against hunting. Its just not for me personally. Hunting even for sport(vs subsistence), where you take your game and process it and what not, is it self not barbarous, it is a fact of nature and the food chain. But hunting for the point of killing things for fun like some of my friends have done, i cannot condone that.

    But you are right in your argument about population control and whatnot and sound like a responsible hunter. Just like being able to conceal carry and being certified, hunters have to receive a license and a same manner and hunt in regulated conditions. Barbary doesn’t seem like a label that would be a good fit in this context. I just hate the argument about population control(when we are a factor of the problem) generally because it comes off as a simplified answer to a complex question, otherwise it is technically correct.

  • I wonder what this decision will do to the anti- and pro- gun lobbies fund raising. Fund raising is dependent on evincing a gut reaction from true believers. The issue of the Second Amendment has moved from being a catastrophe (for either side) to being another civil rights problem.

    We now have a right to bear arms, especially for self defense, with restrictions to be named later. Unlike holding a gun in your cold dead hand (or whatever image the anti-gun groups have), the issue of civil rights becomes down right wonkish for most Americans. I think that the NRA is realizing this now that their fondest hope has been realized. The other day I got a communication offering “legacy” life memberships to the group for a third of what it costs to have a full life membership. Restricted to only one per life member, but there will be a secondary market later on as life members refuse the offer.

    Something similar will have to be offered by the antis if the issues of abortion, voting rights or polio are any guide. Each group will have to start looking at less universal issues and I suspect that their respective polling groups will diminish over time. At least the NRA has other issues to hold the faithful.

  • Sorry I agree with the Courts on this one. I believe in gun control and education. I don’t think it goes anywhere near the bans on guns in places that are not your home. But if I want to own a gun and keep it in my house that should be my right according to the constitution.

  • DB (#73),

    LOL! You called me independent hunter, but my screen name is independent thinker.

    I do appreciate your polite reply though. Sometimes people really get bent about a topic like this. And for the record, I am not a hunter or a gun owner, but I have friends who are.

    Let me be clear. I DO support rational, strict gun laws. We absolutely SHOULD have long waiting periods and extensive background checks. We SHOULD require gun safety courses for any first time gun purchaser along with regular mandated follow up courses (I have suggested every four years). In fact, I would even support mandating classes for ALL people in the house over the age of four (age appropriate content, obviously).

    I DO NOT support city wide bans. Such bans violate the constitutional rights of all of us. Besides, what is the point of owning a gun for personal protection if you have to store it in a locker outside of the city you live in? Sure, you can take it to a firing range whenever you want, but it would be completely useless for personal protection.

    And somewhere above someone pointed out that armed home invasions are rare. That may be true (I don’t have any statistics one way or the other), in that event (however unlikely), a person has the right to defend himself and his family with a legally purchased hand gun.

    To me, the phrase well regulated means just that…well regulated. But any regulation that makes it illegal to purchase and keep a gun in one’s own home has crossed a constitutional line. So, in my mind, the Supreme Court ruled correctly on this issue. The scope of the ruling was clear. Regulate, don’t ban. And I am fine with that.

  • independent thinker,

    Follow up questions to your summary:

    Can I carry a gun into the White House or other Government building? A public school? A private school? Where am I allowed to ensure my personal protection with a firearm? Everywhere? I’m certainly in as much danger in most of those places as I am in my home.

    If not, what’s the Constitutional backing for that now that this case has area restrictions unconstitutional?

    Do we even have the right of personal protection, or are you committing a crime if you shoot an intruder? Is my personal safety required for the security of a free State?

    How is a limited, non-pervasive area restriction for possession of a firearm a violation of the Constitution?

    This law didn’t prevent anyone from legally owning a firearm and, should the need arise, acting in defense of or from the State. It prevented them from possessing a firearm in a limited area for personal use. The way I see it, those limitations will still exist, but only where the Supreme Court decides. That’s an unfair and inconsistent application that I don’t believe they have any legal backing for.

  • To all of you constitutional scholars, “bear arms”, does not specify firearms, you are making a huge assumption about the term “bear arms”.

    We have a right of violent overthrow of a non-responsive and abusive government.
    We have the right to forcibly defend our persons and property, from those who mean us harm,but you all are taking the right to bear arms very narrowly, if the only arms to bear are in the form of a gun, and then only against an intruder.

    Its about the peoples right of power over their government, not the form.

    Lets expand on that idea for a moment, eh??

    .

  • The opinion by Scalia is shamefully similar to the twisted, biased logic expressed in various forms by one Eugene Volokh. Especially the semantic and grammatical deconstruction of the text itself — which was afforded more weight than several experts in English, Literature, and History.

  • If we as citizens have a right to bear arms, does it follow that we have a right to bare feet? I’m sorry, I couldn’t resist. I’ll reboot now.

  • doubtful…you pose some good questions:

    Can I carry a gun into the White House or other Government building? A public school? A private school? Where am I allowed to ensure my personal protection with a firearm? Everywhere? I’m certainly in as much danger in most of those places as I am in my home. My answer? Of course not. Obviously local, state and federal government can place restrictions on firearms in public venues like schools and courtrooms. And frankly, if one feels so inclined, he or she can jump through the hoops of getting a concealed weapon permit and carry a gun down the street. But on one’s own private property (house, farm, etc) the government’s authority is much more limited, IMO.

    If not, what’s the Constitutional backing for that now that this case has area restrictions unconstitutional? The problem with the DC restriction was that it was a TOTAL ban…even in one’s own home for personal defense. THAT crossed the line. Clearly local governments can and should place restrictions in public locations. Clearly a municipal government can institute a restriction that says you can’t walk down the street with a gun or enter a school etc.

    Do we even have the right of personal protection, or are you committing a crime if you shoot an intruder? Is my personal safety required for the security of a free State? I think the premise of your questions are slightly off. It isn’t your personal security that is protected, it is your constitutional rights. The 2nd ammendment says “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

    How is a limited, non-pervasive area restriction for possession of a firearm a violation of the Constitution? When it goes beyond public places and intrudes into your own private property or living space, the restriction has gone too far. So, just as the government is not supposed to be able to tap your phone without a warrent, because doing so violates your rights outlined in the 4th Ammendement, so too, cannot so restrict you right to keep and bear arms that it in affect restricts that right completely.

    This law didn’t prevent anyone from legally owning a firearm and, should the need arise, acting in defense of or from the State. It prevented them from possessing a firearm in a limited area for personal use. The way I see it, those limitations will still exist, but only where the Supreme Court decides. That’s an unfair and inconsistent application that I don’t believe they have any legal backing for. Sorry, I don’t see it that way. by enacting a law that says I cannot keep and bear arms in my own home if I live in area X violates my 2nd Ammendment right. And it certainly would prevent me from defending myself against the State. Let’s take a hypothetical (and admittedly unlikely) scenario: It is the day before innauguation day when Barack Obama will be sworn into office. President George Bush decides he likes it in the White House and convinces top military brass that he is right. Do you really think I could get across town and get my gun? Maybe. Maybe not. Now, I fully admit that this story isn’t at all likely to happen, but that is precisely the kind of think the founding fathers had in mind when they wrote the Constitution. They understood that government should fear the people, not the other way around.

  • well… looks like the supreme court made a decision thats not too popular with the lefites here.. Obamma cant make up his mind which side of the fence he is on with this one.. so he will stick his finger up in the political wind before he makes any rash statements.. of course he has been a 100% antigun legislation voter since day one…… and you to the other side of the isle it seems like you define the constitution to suit your needs.. oh you hollar that the righties bust the constitution because some soldier tosses a kuran in the craper or teh govt monitors a phone call..but when it comes to the good ole USA right here in Gods country … you all want to toss the second ammendment in the crapper… make up your minds ..if you are going to insist that we need to enforce the constitution to the letter of the law.. well damnit do it…. of course that goes back to how you want to interpet the thing…. I think I will have another beer and go waste some ammo out in the back 40 and celebrate ….yahooo….
    Bubba said that.. the troll you all love to hate…

  • I promised my own gun control plan. It won’t satisfy those who think ‘they’re coming to take our guns away’ or those who think the second amendment should permit them to own surface-to-air missles or bazookas. (I have no desire to placate nuts like these.) It also will not satisfy those who will settle for nothing less than a system like the English or Australian systems. (I would prefer something like those, but know there just aren’t the votes to accomplish this, in Congress or in SCOTUS, and I do understand the problems a rural Westerner would have with them.)

    I am running late on short sleep, so I won’t handle how this system would deal with the guns currently in the country. Maybe tomorrow, if this drags over. I assume there would be ways of handling them — except perhaps for the unique I.D. code.

    My proposal, as far as all guns manufactured in or brought into the US is as follows — and is, AFAIK, similar to the system as far as autos goes — remember I don’t drive.

    A:) All guns must include a unique ID number, if possible — I don’t know guns either — included in such a way that defacing it would in some way hamper the functioning of the guns. They must also, before being sold, be brought to a Police Station (or liscensed subsidiary service place) and have a ‘ballistic fingerprint’ produced and placed in a Nationwide data base — only available to the Police. (I’m not sure of the last clause.)

    B:) All transfers of ownership must be registered with the Police or other Department assigned to follow this. (Such filing should be done at a nominal cost.)

    C:) Transfers are not permitted unless the recipient can show a valid permit to own a gun in his home jurisduiction.

    D:) (This is the key provision) The last registered owner — or the manufacturer if the company can not show valid transfer of title — is held liable for any crimes or accidents done with that gun — such presumption would be rebuttable only if the person or company can show the gun was maintained safely and that it was stolen despite precautions, and that he reported the theft to the police. (Exactly how such liability is to be determined needs careful working out, but given the principle, the details shoukd be easy.

    E:) Possession of a gun for which the holder cannot show ownership — or permission from the owner to borrow it, along with a valid license — shall result in a fine or jail sentence and confiscation — and destruction — of the weapon.

    F:) The owner must, at least once a year, bring the gun to a licensed facility to give a new ‘ballistic fingerprint.’ Whether this should be required at any change of ownership is open.

    G:) Guns may only be sold as a business at permanent facilities. In short, traveling gun shows would not be permitted.

    (There are a lot of details remaining, including the question of semi-automatic weapons, how rifles would be handled, etc.)

    I would hope that this is not so late that it would not receive comments, and suggestions on how the overlooked details are to be handled.

  • I would hope that this is not so late that it would not receive comments, and suggestions on how the overlooked details are to be handled. -Prup

    And here I was ready to chastise you for keeping me in unfulfilled suspense again!

    Point by point:

    A. Guns already include unique serial numbers, and I can’t fathom a way to render the gun inoperable if they are tampered with. I would actually like to see it go further and included an embedded GPS device in the frame of the gun. Tampering with that, since it would involve destruction of the frame, would render the gun inoperable.

    That would give law enforcement a way, in conjunction with you ‘ballistic fingerprint’ to track a stolen gun or a gun used in a crime. If they can’t track it, then it is a safe assumption that the gun was destroyed.

    (Of course, the people who naively hold on to the notion of bloody revolution would be firmly against this, since it would give the government an unfair advantage. Frankly, I think the tanks and bombs already give them an unfair advantage.)

    B and C. In addition to the transfer of ownership rules you outline, I’d like to add that the recipient must also wait the same amount of time before taking possession of the gun as they would for a new gun purchase.

    In other words, if you sell someone a hand gun and the waiting period is two weeks, they are not allowed to take possession of that firearm until two weeks after the transfer paperwork is filed. Law enforcement or a licensed gun dealer could store the gun during this waiting period or, if possession is taken early, both parties are charged with misdemeanors.

    D. This one would be tricky, both with application and civil liberties, I think. I agree with the principle, though, and would like to see punishment for failure to report a stolen weapon or illegal transfer of a weapon increased when the negligence results in violent crime.

    E. Along with that, illegal possession of a firearm should render you permenantly ineligible to legally obtain a firearm in the future. Along with rights comes responsibility. Shirk the responsibility, lose the right.

    F. A recurring inspection of the firearm is a great idea, but this would be a good place to bring up the burden of paying for all of this. Would it be rolled into the gun cost? Would gun owners be required to pay a yearly tax per gun?

    G. I couldn’t agree more. Gun shows and internet sales should be forbidden.

    (There are a lot of details remaining, including the question of semi-automatic weapons, how rifles would be handled, etc.) -Prup

    I would assume you meant fully-automatic weapons since most hand guns and rifles are already semi-automatic.

    Frankly, I don’t want people to have fully-automatic weapons, but I really see nothing in the 2nd, especially with Scalia’s reading of it, that supports banning them. If you read ‘arms’ to include firearms, I don’t see where you can, legally, make the distinction between their style and rate of fire (and I’m not familiar with the case law, so maybe, hopefully, there is something there). Honestly, I expect this to be the next hurdle the NRA tries to jump.

  • I own guns, hunt ethically for food, and agree with the poster who said there are no gun accidents–only negligence. I have never shot where not intended. I am a crack shot and would not hesitate in defense of self/family/property.
    That being said, I am more worried these days about other rights such as privacy being violated.

  • Something doesn’t make sense to me…
    The Bill of Rights assigns rights to individuals to meet with who they choose, practice the religion they want, publish and say anything they wish, get a speedy trial, know what they are charged with, refuse to give room and board to soldiers….

    Only 9 out of 10 refer to individual rights?
    The 2nd… nestled in the middle is a military regulation referring to the rights of groups of people? The members of which are not spelled out in any way? It says that the purpose of the amendment is to maintain freedom. Okay, from WHO? The government? Are we to assume the government doesn’t control these militias that gun control folks harp on? If not the government, who defines the members of the militia? What right do the people have to bear arms if the states decide only Blackwater employees qualify?

    I’ve never been able to reconcile this puzzle in a way that sided with gun control advocates. Eight years of Republican efforts to undermine the other 9 constitutional rights makes me far more certain than before that the SC is absolutely right about the original intent of the 2nd.

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