Taking church-voting to court

The American Humanist Legal Center has a new court case that’s definitely worth watching.

“An Illinois member [of the American Humanist Association] voted in a church that displayed a four-foot wooden crucifix right above the election judges. Another member in California was confronted by a large marble plaque dedicated to the ‘unborn children’ who are ‘killed’ by abortion, and containing a quote from the Bible justifying the notion that the soul is alive in the womb. And a New York member voted in a room featuring large religious slogans on the wall behind the voting machines.”

Simply using church space for balloting is one thing. Frequently, it’s about logistical convenience — in many parts of the country, a local church is the only public facility big enough to accommodate the community’s voters. But when voters are confronted, while voting, with politically-charged messages, we’re confronted with a far bigger problem. As Zachary Roth put it, “[I]f you’re going to ban signs from candidates in and around polling places, it’s hard to see the logic for allowing religious statements or images with obviously political implications.”

Indeed, it is. In fact, a lawsuit like this one seemed inevitable.

As we’ve talked about before, a study from Stanford’s business school was published in July that suggested where you vote has an influence on how you vote.

It’s hard to imagine that something as innocuous as polling location (e.g., school, church, or fire station) might actually influence voting behavior, but the Stanford researchers have discovered just that. In fact, Wheeler says “the influence of polling location on voting found in our research would be more than enough to change the outcome of a close election.” And, as seen in the neck-to-neck 2000 presidential election where Al Gore ultimately lost to George W. Bush after months of vote counting in Florida, election biases such as polling location could play a significant role in the 2008 presidential election. Even at the proposition level, “Voting at a school could increase support for school spending or voting at a church could decrease support for stem cell initiatives,” says [S. Christian Wheeler, associate professor of marketing].

Why might something like polling location influence voting behavior? “Environmental cues, such as objects or places, can activate related constructs within individuals and influence the way they behave,” says Berger. “Voting in a school, for example, could activate the part of a person’s identity that cares about kids, or norms about taking care of the community. Similarly, voting in a church could activate norms of following church doctrine. Such effects may even occur outside an individual’s awareness.”

And that’s just dealing with voting in churches in general, and doesn’t address church-based communications such as those alleged in the American Humanist Legal Center lawsuit.

I can’t imagine policy makers ever having the courage to try and “correct” this problem, but that’s exactly why the court case should be interesting. Stay tuned.

I’m sure Christian fundamentalists wouldn’t mind if they had to go vote in a mosque, right?

We’ll see Congress fix this about the same time we see them take the under God crap out of the pledge of allegiance.

  • I think there’s a trend toward over-psychologicalizing in politics, and the law. If there’s anything more unreliable than political polls it’s trying to assess the psychological effects of things or the hidden motives of people. An adult with free will is influenced by many things and most influence are either unpredictable or ambiguous. It’s better than right-wing over-simplication though.

  • “in many parts of the country, a local church is the only public facility”CB

    I’ve never really thought of a church as a public facility. If you are going to put voting booths in a church you have to expect to encounter a religious message.

    How is a church any more of a “public” facility than a grocery store, barber shop, or other retail space?

    It surprises me that there aren’t enough schools, and other public buildings to use, but if that is the case, put up a tent in a public park. If there are no public parks, close down a public street, and put up a tent in the middle of the street.

    Is it really ever necessary to use a church or other private facility? If so, that seems to be a bigger problem that needs to be addressed. Who gets to choose which churches get to be polling places and which don’t? Is there some officially documented criteria that are used to determine if a particular church gets to be a polling place? Maybe all churches (and synagogues, and mosques) should be polling places and we should each vote at our own place of worship. Those of us who don’t belong to a house of worship can choose which one we want to vote at.

    Come to think of it, are there any mosques that are polling places? If not, why? If so, why aren’t there more complaints from christian extremists?

    Something just doesn’t seem right here, and “you go to vote with the election infrastructure you have” seems like the wrong answer to this problem. It seems like this (lack of local public polling places) should be a bigger issue.

    – Danny

  • Wasn’t there something from earlier this month where people’s homes are used for voting venues, and voters had to tolerate both improper political (religiously political) messages on the owner’s automobiles strategically placed by the entrance AND the obnoxious views of the homeowner?

  • I really think this is a stupid idea. But then I’m not an atheist, so I’m not really being discriminated against I suppose. But if a voter can’t walk past offensively electionaring messages and cast his vote the way he wants, maybe he shouldn’t be voting.

  • I am a voterholic and I have voted in church halls and schools for the last 40 years. Not once did issues related to church vs state, school lunch programs, or abortion ever go in the booth with me. Nor have I seen (or maybe didn’t pay attention to) any symbolic or religious slogan that would influence my vote. As Dale said, “over-psychologicalizing in politics”.

  • “I’m sure Christian fundamentalists wouldn’t mind if they had to go vote in a mosque, right?” – Racerx

    They would crank up the noise machine, but really they would love it. Tell me voting in a Mosque would not ultimately help the right in a huge way. I can promise you we would have never gotten control over Congress has everyone been made to vote in a Mosque. Talk about firing up the base.

    Second, who in fuck doesn’t know who they are voting for until they get in line. This isn’t McDonalds. Maybe it’s just me, but I have never switched my vote while waiting in line. I know it’s our right and duty to vote, but seriously, if a cross or a school is going to change your vote, please stay home, for the sake of the country.

    The last thing I want to mention is voting pro-school ever really bad. Sure your taxes might go up, but investing money in local school initiates is never a bad idea. So keep schools the standard.

  • “I think there’s a trend toward over-psychologicalizing in politics”Dale

    “if a voter can’t walk past offensively electionaring messages and cast his vote the way he wants, maybe he shouldn’t be voting”Lance

    “Nor have I seen (or maybe didn’t pay attention to) any symbolic or religious slogan that would influence my vote”Bonnie

    “I have never switched my vote while waiting in line.”ScottW

    While I agree that such things have no affect on my vote, and shouldn’t have any affect on other peoples votes, I don’t understand why private institutions should ever be public polling places.

    Additionally, the fact that something doesn’t change your vote personally, and that you feel that it shouldn’t change someone else’s vote, isn’t really a very good measuring stick for what should be allowed. I’d be willing to have my family, boss, and religious leader sign off on my vote before it is cast, and I think everyone else should be willing to do the same. This doesn’t make it a good idea.

    – Danny

  • Danny. I never argued differently. I was just stating that my vote has never been swayed. I do think schools, townhalls, and firehouses are fine, the church non-sense has got to go. Anti-abortion plaques and giant crosses are definitely politically charged, intentional or not.

    Maybe one day we can all vote on the web (and send out a paper trail via the mail) and my statute of Satan deflowering the once Virgin Mary from behind will influence my friends and I can get sued too.

  • “the fact that something doesn’t change your vote personally. . . .isn’t really a very good measuring stick”Danny

    “Danny. I never argued differently.”ScottW

    “if a cross or a school is going to change your vote, please stay home”ScottW

    I apologize. I misunderstood. I though you were implying that since it doesn’t change your vote, it shouldn’t change anyone elses, and if it does change theirs, they shouldn’t vote 😉

    Seriously though, I agree that anything might change someone’s vote. We can’t protect everyone from anything that might influence their vote. But using private institutions for public voting just doesn’t make sense to me.

    Perhaps, while we’re at it, rather than waste money building courthouses, we should just hold court cases in churches on days and at times when they aren’t being used for religious services anyhow.

    – Danny

  • “Maybe one day we can all vote on the web (and send out a paper trail via the mail)”ScottW

    One of the complications we aren’t likely to ever overcome is the fact that there really isn’t any way to have anonymous voting and at the same time make absolutely certain that nobody’s vote is lost.

    With an anonymous vote there is always potential for corruption/fraud on the part of whoever is in control of making sure all the votes are counted. Who, other than those engaged in the fraud, will ever know if some votes are replaced if they are completely anonymous?

    As soon as you create a way to verify that someone voted a certain way, to verify that their vote wasn’t replaced/lost, you’ve removed the anonymity from the vote.

    There are a lot of things we can do to minimize the opportunity for fraud/corruption, but I don’t think it can be eliminated.

    – Danny

  • There’s no conflict between thinking that the influence of voting in a church is iffy and not wanting churches involved in anything political. Maybe at one time churches were an honorable part of the social/political fabric and therefore mostly neutral. Evangelicals have changed all that by politicizing religion they’ve ended all that.

  • Not just Evangelicals Dale, the Roman Catholic Bishops Conference is right in there politicing hard for the Republican’ts.

    Bunch of freaking pedophile coddling pharsees.

  • “There’s no conflict between thinking that the influence of voting in a church is iffy and not wanting churches involved in anything political.”Dale

    I most heartedly agree. . . .

    “I agree that such things. . . .shouldn’t have any affect on other peoples votes, I don’t understand why private institutions should ever be public polling places.Danny

    If you are coming to ScottW’s defense, then note the following.

    What I stated was:
    “the fact that something doesn’t change your vote personally, and that you feel that it shouldn’t change someone else’s vote, isn’t really a very good measuring stick for what should be allowed”

    So there is a bit of a conflict between stating:

    1) That your vote isn’t influenced and if someone else’s is then they shouldn’t vote

    2) That you never argued differently than my statement.

    Of course, I think that all three of us are actually on the same side of this discussion in that I think we all actually agree that voting in the presence of a church shouldn’t affect anybody’s vote, and that using churches as polling places is a bad idea anyway.

    I’m just trying to get to some good reasons why we shouldn’t use churches (they influence votes isn’t necessarily one of those good reasons). Failing that, what I’d really like to understand is why it’s necessary and why it’s considered acceptable to use churhes as polling places. (see my comment about courthouses).

    – Danny

  • “So there is a bit of a conflict between stating:

    1) That your vote isn’t influenced and if someone else’s is then they shouldn’t vote” – Danny in reply to ScottW

    Hey, that’s my argument!

    And I just meant that a voter should not vote if he’s so biddible on election day. Citizenship should involve a little study before you make up your mind.

  • There was a study a little while ago which looked at how ballot initiatives fared vs. the venue for the election.

    Wards that held elections in schools had a higher portion of pro-school bond votes, wards in churches had a higher portion of pro-church votes, and so on.

    It does matter, even if the people here have steely resolve, apparently the average voter has more like aluminum foil resolve.

    Or something.

  • “Hey, that’s my argument!”Lance

    More than one person used that line of reasoning here.

    See #8 “please stay home”ScottW

    My point is that it is important to prevent voter intimidation, and that just because you don’t find something intimidating, doesn’t mean someone else won’t (see my comment on ppl signing off on my ballot). I recognize that we can’t keep everyone from being affected by their daily surroundings, and perhaps signs and religious icons shouldn’t be considered intimidation, but the argument that “it doesn’t bother me so it shouldn’t bother you” isn’t a valid measuring stick for what should be acceptable.

  • “There was a study. . . .”Mr.Snub

    Yes, as a matter of fact CB mentions and links to his previous post about it in this very post ;-o

    See the link contained in his phrase, “As we’ve talked about before. . . .”

    – Danny

  • There is no inherent danger in using a church hall as a polling location as long as you don’t bring the church into the voting booth with you!

  • “There is no inherent danger. . . .as long as you don’t bring the church. . . .”Timpanist

    It’s a nice phrase but as arguments go, it doesn’t really stand up.

    There is no inherent danger in subjecting voters to agressive intimidation, as long as the voter doesn’t let the intimidation affect his vote.

    I’m not saying that using a church hall as a polling location is “agressive intimidation”, I’m just demonstrating that the logic of the phrase is a little unreliable.

    If the voting booth is in a church hall, then you get the church out of the voting booth.

    Perhaps there is no inherent danger in passing laws to establish an official American religion, as long as you don’t succumb to the pressure to follow the national religion.

    Can I assume that you believe that church halls should be used as courtrooms as well?

  • Typo alert!

    Correction:

    If the voting booth is in a church hall, then you get the church out of the voting booth.

    should have said

    If the voting booth is in a church hall, then you can’t get the church out of the voting booth.

  • Hey, the Saloon was good enough for courtroom, voting and deputizing for our ancestors , it should be good enough for us. Caesar’s Palace would be a good venue.

  • “Hey, the Saloon was good enough. . . .”Dale

    Now this is an idea I can get behind. 😉

    When did courtrooms and voting booths move out of saloons?
    Was it about the same time they moved into churches?
    Perhaps an effect of prohibition?

    Sometimes I wish I knew a whole lot more about history

  • ““[I]f you’re going to ban signs from candidates in and around polling places, it’s hard to see the logic for allowing religious statements or images with obviously political implications.”

    Not at all pertinent.

    ELECTIONEERING involves the current race. You were free to wear an anti-Bush button to the polling place to vote in the midterms. I did — it’s not electioneering, IT’S FREE SPEECH.

    As for churches with big messages, that’s not acceptable on church-state grounds, since indeed, electiions are public, and funded. But that’s a decision for the local Registrar of Voters to decide — so if you don’t like your ROV, figure out how to remove them from power, because if they are putting voters in a room that displays messages offensive to voters, they shouldn’t do that.

    People have been voting in church rooms (not chapels) in North America for something like 300 years. It’s not a problem. Bad ROVs trying to make political hay out of voting places IS.

  • “One of the complications we aren’t likely to ever overcome is the fact that there really isn’t any way to have anonymous voting and at the same time make absolutely certain that nobody’s vote is lost.” — Danny

    NONSENSE. Anonymous paper ballots with simple optical counters can produce error rates of less than one percent, and are recountable.

    It takes QUITE a bit of work to make a voting system as shot-through with fraud as the one the Rapepublicans started installing in 1999. As with Iraq, there is little they didn’t intentionally fk up.

  • ELECTIONEERING involves the current race. You were free to wear an anti-Bush button to the polling place to vote in the midterms. I did — it’s not electioneering, IT’S FREE SPEECH. — Paul in LA, @26

    a) you’re assuming that that the poll workers are aware of all the ins and outs, but that’s not always true. At my precinct (a small building near the hospital, where all the ambulances are parked till they’re needed. Can’t remember the English term for it), if you wear anything even remotely political (“had enough?” sticker, for exmple), you’re told to go home and change.

    b) this election cycle, Virginia was voting on the “marriage amendment”. We (Dems) had to keep our “vote no on #1” signs the same 40ft away from the precinct as the Webb ones (and as the ‘pubs had to keep their “vote yes” and Allen signs). But. One of the county precincts was in a church hall. From what people who voted there told me, they didn’t have the standard “vote no on #1” sign inside the hall. But they decorated the entire hall with quotes from the Bible, sermons, etc, all of which promised eternal hell to those who didn’t stick by the “one man, one woman” rule.

    Wouldn’t have changed my vote anyway, but, yes, I’d have felt uncomfortable voting there.

  • I’ve wondered since the time I first started voting why, oh why, we use churches as voting places. Our constitution guarantees separation of Church and State – yet we vote in a church? Illogical.
    The subconscious effects should be obvious and I can only surmise that more investigation has not been done because the churches are so influential (proving the point).
    On November 7, I worked an 18+ hour day as a precinct judge (first time I’ve ever worked at the polls) and, sure enough, the voting was located in a church. This one was as sanitary as possible in the way of blatant politically charged symbols but had *two* precincts voting there. No one seemed to know why, but I was told they’d had *three* precincts voting there sometimes.
    Still, whatever happened to voting in fire stations? That had always seemed to me to be almost patriotic (a symbol of community government and why we have government).

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