The Bill of Rights apply to the states — even Alabama

For political discourse to function at all, competing sides have to agree on certain base facts. There has to be a reality that everyone can recognize before rivals can debate more sophisticated and complex questions.

For example, former [tag]Alabama[/tag] [tag]Supreme Court[/tag] Chief Justice [tag]Roy Moore[/tag] (R), who’s about to lose a Republican gubernatorial primary, insisted that he could defy the First Amendment whenever he wanted because the [tag]Bill of Rights[/tag] doesn’t apply to the [tag]states[/tag]. When a federal court judge told him otherwise, Moore said he could ignore him too, because federal courts didn’t have jurisdiction over his defiance of the First Amendment.

Moore, obviously, was in his own legal universe, and was ultimately thrown off the state Supreme Court in disgrace for his “unique” approach to jurisprudence. The bad news is four right-wing candidates running for Alabama’s Supreme Court are picking up where Moore left off.

In a debate with powerful echoes of the turbulent civil rights era, four Republicans running for Alabama’s Supreme Court are making an argument legal scholars thought was settled in the 1800s: that state [tag]courts[/tag] are not bound by U.S. Supreme Court [tag]precedents[/tag].

The Constitution says federal law trumps state laws, and legal experts say there is general agreement that state courts must defer to the U.S. Supreme Court on matters of federal law.

Yet Justice Tom Parker, who is running for chief justice, argues that state judges should refuse to follow U.S. Supreme Court precedents they believe to be erroneous. Three other GOP candidates in Tuesday’s primary have made nearly identical arguments.

Now, this was a popular perspective in Alabama, and in other southern states, when federal courts struck down segregation in schools and public transportation 50 years ago, but it was wildly wrong then and it’s wildly wrong now. No serious professional could argue this with a straight face.

My broader point, however, is this: how do two sides have a reasoned argument when they can’t agree on reality?

We say there’s a constitutional separation between church and state, that the Supreme Court is the final arbiter of constitutional interpretation, and that the Bill of Rights apply to the states. Roy Moore, Tom Parker, and a few other leading Alabama judicial candidates disagree with all of this.

It’s not just legal issues, either. Plenty of conservatives will tell you that Iraq was involved in 9/11, Bush inherited a recession, tax cuts pay for themselves, the list goes on and on.

There are countless legitimate controversies for which there is room for debate and discourse, but if we can’t agree on the basics, how do we debate the tough questions?

The South (and that kind of “conservative” wherever they lived) have lived in a separate reality that is indistinguishable from the interior of the last 12 inches of the human intestine for so long they really believe it is the World, and that they’re breathing fresh air.

  • There’s a problem with this line:

    … if we can’t agree on the basics, how do we debate the tough questions?

    The problem is that the right doesn’t want a debate.

    They know what’s best, and anyone who disagrees is shouted down as a traitor, mythical issues like a “War on Christmas” are created, and any possible debate is squashed before it can begin. Which is exactly what they want.

    As I’ve posted a few times before, the only choice these people want you to have is the one they choose for you.

  • That’s right, no debate is necessary when people are on the side of God and corporate America. See “Santorum’s Bubble Boy policy” post as just a recent example. And really, ignoring the law if it doesn’t fit your interpretation comes right from the top. That’s what Bush and Gonzales do at the highest levels of government.

  • I’ll weigh in (simply because I happen to LIVE in the backwards ass state in question)

    Unholy Moses says “The problem is that the right doesn’t want a debate.”

    Quite right.

    All these people are convinced that they’re right…God told them so! Seriously, there are people who will come to you at the funeral of your wife/mother/daughter who might have died in a tragic car accident and tell you it’s just “God’s will” Horseshit. They’re so absolutely convinced of their “rightness” (appropriate don’t you think?) that they tend to plug their ears and yell “LA LA LA LA LA LA” to drown out any rational commentary at all. I’m to the point I think they’re actually not worried about any consequences at all because God’s going to come in the dead of night and rescue them during the Second Coming, they TRULY believe this. Very hard to reason with people who have fingers in their ears…..it really is… I’m surprised daily they don’t burn crosses in my yard…..

  • When the President is allowed to get away with 750 “signing statements” – indicating which points of federal law he plans to ignore – it’s easy to see how others might be tempted to follow his arrogant and ignorant lead.

  • The answer is simple, CB.

    If the Constitution doesn’t apply, then Alabama isn’t part of the United States of America.

    Erect border controls, eliminate all federal tax monies that go to Alabama for roads, schools, etc. Close all US military bases.

    Doing so will certainly raise the average IQ in the US.

    We have a joke here in Gawga about how Alabama and Mississippi were populated. Somewhere around the Tallapoosa River, an intrepid woodsman returned from exploring the country to the west and, realizing it was a wasteland, posted a sign:

    “If you can read this, turn back.”

    As my wife and I say, Alabama is a great place to be FROM.

  • Conservatism is dead. Sadly, it’s been consumed by insanity. This country needs conservatives as much as it needs liberals. Unfortunately, they’ve given up and handed their position over to some deeply disturbed people.

    There’s no point in debating the insane. Maybe at some point in the future, conservatives will retake the republicant party. Until then, all we have are the barking moonbats who call themselves conservatives.

  • (#6 – does that make Alabamans illegal aliens?)

    this goes back to the issue of whether we should try to reach out to NASCARman, and my position from that discussion. there really are certain objective truths in the world, certain fundamental premises that are there to build reasoning on, like letters allow one to build words. trying to “reach out to” or “reason with” people who systematically reject objective truth and fundamental premises is a complete waste of time.

    i am not convinced this makes Dems a “permanent minority.” if I’m wrong about that, I need to find another country anyway.

    and not Alabama.

  • I’m to the point I think they’re actually not worried about any consequences at all because God’s going to come in the dead of night and rescue them during the Second Coming, they TRULY believe this.
    –Timmy

    We have a good family friend who believes in the Rapture. She thinks that some day, a bunch of people will just disapear.

    When she told us this, I had to steal a line from a bumper sticker I once saw:

    “When the rapture comes, can I have your car?”

    She didn’t find it nearly as funny as I did …

  • All good points above. I was going to state that there is no rational debate when religion is involved, particularly of the christian (in this country) kind. But that is covered above. The only thing I can think to add (coming from years of living in Louisiana) is that the only real avenue available to enlightened folks elsewhere is to possibly boycott companies that locate in these states if the states continue to elect numbskulls like those cited above, and to refuse to spend any money in such states (other than gas, possibly, if you are about to run out of gas in one of them and it is your only real avenue of escape).

  • Hey JC,

    You know what, the sad part about your post is that the people here
    would most likely LOVE the idea of not being a part of the USA any more….it would just make them sure that they FINALLY won the
    Civil War…..and would (in their minds….ahem) prove that they were RIGHT
    all along…..LOL. I think we have to make them stay in the union and suffer… oh and trust me here…..Timmy will be “from Alabama” one day. But then again…..if we’re booted out of the union….maybe I can be an illegal alien when I move outta here….so I’m kinda torn…..

  • JC, don’t forget to provide for refugees. Remember, even in Alabama, 37% voted for Kerry. The “red state/blue state” thinking leads people too assume more homogeneity than there is. Here in DC, which went 91% for Kerry, it might be a bit more understandable to ignore the Republicans, but then we’ve got plenty of them here who are residents of other places.

  • Timmy –

    🙂

    Actually, I think being faced with the real-world consequences of their outrageous rhetoric is just what they need.

    Intellectually, the Roy Moores of the world are children. They need to have boundaries set for them, and to be disciplined when they violate those boundaries.

    There would be a few who puff up their chests and “cut off their noses to spite their faces,” but many more would dial back the behaviour.

    And bud, if I got out (I’m a Greene County native), anyone can!

  • Well, the SC ruled that schools that ban military recruiters could be denied federal money, why not do the same for the Constitution?

    “Sure, you can ignore the document that’s kept our nation together for over 200 years, but you can kiss the federal teet goodbye.”

    Wouldn’t happen, of course, since Roy Moore and George Bush share the same half-brain

  • I think it’s important that we not make this about Alabama — or Mississippi, or “the South.” There isn’t one state in the union that hasn’t sent its share of morons to its courts — or its statehouse, or the Congress, or to the White House. Snickering at one or two states, or even a section of the country, makes it way too easy. I come from a so-called blue state, but we were the ones who legitimized the concept that we could be led by a Hollywood actor in the early stages of dementia. We have met the enemy, and he is us.

  • There are definite arguments to be made that Supreme Court Judges should not be elected. Seems to me the most corrupt and anti-populist states all tend to elect their judiicial officers. And it’s easy to get elected with emotional appeals which should have no place in the law.

  • So if Alabama elects an Iranian-style theocratic government ruled by clerics that refuses to cooperate with the federal government in Washington, can we nuke ’em?

    Just kidding!!! Mostly. 😉

    Seriously, though, it’s sad that the thinking processes of portions of the population over that way haven’t progressed at all since 1865.

    As a kid I remember when Kennedy had to federalize the National Guard in Alabama because George Wallace was saying the same things that these bozos are saying now.

    Are we going to have to go through all that again?? I hope not, I sincerely do.

  • Good points by all, and (as another resident of Alabama) I especially agree with yours, Andy.
    Judges (at least not Supreme Court judges), should not be bound to run for office time and time again. As you said, emotional appeals are too easy. I don’t know if you live here, but the TV ads are mind-numbingly stupid, and increasingly so with the primary approaching Tuesday.
    Judges should be appointed, but then I don’t think we should be voting for State Auditor or Agricultural Commissioner, either.

    I met Roy Moore two weeks ago, and shook his hand. I’m still washing mine.

  • Why do you want to debate with bullies anyway? You have to stand up to them, and keep standing up to them until they are worn out.

  • As someone who actually moved here 20 years ago, I can tell you Alabama is more like one of those third world countries the conservatives are always complaning about. We get more money from Washington than we send to it, though we hate DC and all of it’s politicians. Our philosophy as far as public education is “We’ll spend more money on it when it improves.” When recruiting industry, we are the cheapest whore on the block (non-union and damn proud of it). And though my annual property tax is about half of my annual cable bill, we are still “overtaxed”. And, all of our smart and cool kids head right over the border to America to make a living.

    And it is all because we have “Liberal” politicians destroying family values right here in Alabama.

    Keep in mind, of course, that the Moores and Parkers and Fob James of the world think we are the ones who can’t grasp the basic concepts.

  • What??!! (insert picture of me lookng googlie eyed)

    There’s another Tim…..from ALABAMA……who frequents THIS site????

    Are you my clone? Long lost brother from another mother?

    Wait, you said you shook Roy Moore’s hand…..I’m not sure I could
    have done that with a straight face…..lol!

    Good for Tim’s everywhere……

  • Threads like this make me a little bit angry.

    I’m an Alabamian, and coincidently, also an American.

    Raise your hand if you’ve been to Alabama. I “know” what living in New York is like, because every third television show is set in New York (I’ve also been several times). The rest of the country doesn’t know squat about living in Alabama, because most of them have never been here. The only press we get is when George Wallace stands up for segregation, or Roy Moore stands up for the 10 Commandments monument.

    I’ve travelled all over the country (literally), and listened to Alabama-bashing everywhere I went. It’s not ok to stereotype blacks or Jews, but putting the 4 million residents of this state into a single pigeon hole is ok for some reason. Why is that?

    Here’s what I know about Alabama. I went to a PUBLIC high school that has one of the best math programs in the COUNTRY (that country would be the United States of America, not the United State of Alabama). We regularly competed against Stuyvesant in NY, and Evanston in Chicago, and beat them. I have a two bachelor’s degrees, and a Master’s degree from an Ivy League school in Mathematics.

    Has one person here actually stopped to listen to Roy Moore’s side of the story? Or is he just wrong because he’s conservative? You may not like what he did, but since when is standing up for what you believe in something that is evil? Instead of being another spineless politician whose behavior follows the latest opinion polls, Roy Moore did what he thought was right and followed it through to the end. He did break the law, but in doing so he proved his integrity and honesty. That is why he has the level of support he does (small, but fierce). By the way, 77% of the USA said that it was WRONG for the federal courts to force Roy Moore to remove the monument. That’s not just the NASCAR fans.

    Honestly, it’s sad that (former governor) Don Siegelman, indicted several months ago for fraud and corruption, and running in the Democratic gubernatorial primary, is much more likely to win election than Roy Moore.

    When you write-off an entire state based on one politician (who WON’T even be elected), and you don’t even bother to listen to his side, how are you any better than the beer-swilling chuckleheads you presume populate every square inch of the red states you despise?

  • The Moorite wing of the Republican Party is running a “ticket” in the party primary, headed by Moore (for Governor) and including at least 4 clones for Supreme Court (1 of Moore’s disciples, Parker, is already on the Court and is running for Chief Justice, Moore’s old job). Unfortunately, this year 5 of 9 Supreme Court seats are up for election. And, for all I know, there may be some stealth candidates for the other state-wide courts.

    This “supremacy” issue came up several months ago when the Alabama Supreme Court voted 8-0 or 8-1 (guess who?) to overturn a juvenile’s death sentence after the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that minors can’t be executed under the Eighth Amendment.

    The sort of campaign the Moore faction is running is highly unusual here, where Supreme Court races have traditionally (but not recently, and maybe not any more) tended to be relatively uncontested, at least within each party.

    It’s entirely possible, of course, that the Moorites will all win. Alabama voters have rarely (as in never) missed a chance to indulge their short-term whims at the expense of their long-term interests. And we do have a worthless (and, I hope, unconstitutional) anti-gay-marriage constitutional amendment on the ballot as well.

    Yet there is some ground for a little optimism here; the “worst case scenario” may not materialize (not that the “next-to-worst case” is that much better, but still). Moore’s whole campaign seems to be going badly, though there has been some jibber-jabber about Democrats “crossing over” to vote for Moore and so screw up the Republicans for November. (You can vote in whichever primary you wish; there’s no real “party registration” here.) Needless to say, any Democrat who would even dream of doing such a thing should be impaled.

    But Alabama Republicans are going to have to handle the Moore crowd all on their own. I know I’m not crossing over to try to save them from themselves.

    Still, let’s not get ahead of ourselves. The election is next Tuesday, Let’s see what happens.

  • Well, actually, we did listen to what he said, and looked at what he did, and what he continues to say and do to this day. And we just think he’s kind of retarded, is all.

    Not that everyone in Alabama is like that, certainly not. Just the ones that think and act him. But don’t worry, Howard Dean hasn’t forgotten the good people of Alabama, and everyone will be welcome when America once again becomes a land to be proud of from sea to shining sea.

  • “Has one person here actually stopped to listen to Roy Moore’s side of the story? Or is he just wrong because he’s conservative? You may not like what he did, but since when is standing up for what you believe in something that is evil?”

    Ummm, yeah – he says that states’ rights usurp Supreme Court decisions and states can do what they want if they feel a SC decision is wrong. That’s just looney. Do you know how the law works? Yes, he stood up for what he believed in, but so did Hitler (I’m not relating Moore to Hitler). Unfortunately, people who hold obviously wrong and dangerous beliefs actually do believe in them and are a liability to our nation’s stability if they’re in a position of power like a Chief Justice of a State Supreme Court.

  • As a liberal who lives in Alabama, I can’t tell you how depressing it is to read all of this slagging of the south. Although I have no interest in defending Moore in any way, shape, or form, I have to agree with AL Hick about this. A bigot is a bigot, and it doesn’t matter whether you it’s the Irish you think are drunks, the Jews you think are greedy, the Blacks you think are lazy, the gays you think are immoral, or the southerners (the ones who stay) you think are all stupid Biblical literalists. You are a bigot. That liberals can give themselves a free pass on this in the case of southerners shows the resilience of the human nature’s worst vices. If it were just a matter of a bunch of liberal bigots laughing amongst themselves and staying away from the South, it would be a bummer, but that’s it. The truth is, however, that adolescents in Alabama are becoming adults every day, and like adolescents everywhere, their identities are still somewhat flexible. There is nothing that will harden them into Republicans like the anti-Yankee resentment that will inevitably follow hearing the kinds of sentiments aired in these comments and freely in other similar venues. Let me echo our favorite comedian. You are hurting America. Stop it!

  • AL native here. As I see it, the primary on the Dem side is not much of a race: a pol currently on trial for corruption (with seemingly a great deal of damning evidence) vs a nice lady who has taken few public stands and shows little evidence of governing ability. I think Dems would do the state a service by voting in the Repub primary, if only to vote against the Moore-ons in the supreme court races. It doesn’t matter if you vote for Roy Moore; he’ll lose anyway

  • If I still lived in Louisiana and was referred to as an inbred cracker constantly, you can bet your ass I’d never vote for a Democrat.
    I don’t blame my family at all for hating “liberals”, I would too.
    Most of them don’t really know what a liberal is. Just the cartoon stereotype.
    Like you South bashers, you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. I have found far more ignorance and bigotry in Washington State than I ever did in Louisiana. The only black people I get along with here are transplanted Southerners, and they say the exact same thing.
    I might vote Republican’t just to spite you ignorant bastards.
    And I hate Republican’ts

  • I’ve been to Alabama several times on business, and for weeks at a time. I can’t tell you how often I’ve been patronizingly told that I’m at probably not a damn Yankee. (I grin politely, and manage to refrain from commenting that at least my Daddy ain’t also my brother. I mean, only an idiot would think that clapping someone on the back while insulting them constitutes a friendly overture, and only a bigger idiot would think that this faux friendliness is fooling anyone.) For every Alabamian here who’s been whining about how unfairly they’re being stereotyped, I should point out that it goes the other way, too, dude.

    I might add that in Alabama (as in Georgia) after chit-chatting with black employees at our facilities, I’ve been pulled aside by white folks who very kindly explain to me that this sort of thing ain’t done around here.

  • This is not just being “bigoted” against the South. It isn’t stereotyping if it is true — and I’m not saying that to be facetious, hear me out. While it is NOT fair to over-generalize and suggest that everyone inside the Mason-Dixon line is the same, it is fair to say that those states have, time and time again, shown that they are in fact different from the rest of the states. They vote differently. They pass different laws. They priortize different spending. It is fair to call them on it. I would bet you real money that no Northern state has 4 major party candidates for state supreme court asserting that they can ignore US Supreme Court precedents when their beliefs say they should. Seen many racial gerrymandering voting rights act cases out of the north?

    Just like we look at other cultures and say “the moderate muslims need to take steps to take their religion back from islamists who have hijacked it” it is fair that people in this country dont give a pass to populations that vote for people who are, frankly, just off their rockers.

    If you happen to get unfairly painted with that brush, then you need to look at what you can do to “take back your state.” I refuse to give the South a pass on its overall voting and social behavior just to avoid being labelled a bigoted northerner.

    Also, no offense, the AL crowd seems a little thin skinned. I’ve seen this Board savage numerous states before, likely foremost among them Texas and Missouri — and from the latter I know we have numerous participants who have never reacted quite like the ‘Bamans.

  • While it is indeed unfair to smear all southerners as demented fools, it is not unfair to ridicule southerners who are demented fools. Not acknowledging that the Confereracy lost the American Civil War would seem to put one in that category.

    It’s also not unfair to point out that the southern “red” states suffer in comparison to both northern “blue” and “red” states in a number of important areas, most notably per capita income, crime rates, literacy and infant mortality(you know, when ACTUAL babies die).

    Alabama Hick(23) brags about his high school alama mater’s mathletic prowess, but the fact is, Alabama ranked 47th out of 50 among U.S. states in high school graduation rates in 2005, while only 36% of Alabama high schools offered AP courses in 2005, compared to the national average of 65%. Not surprisingly, The Cotton State was 43rd in educational spending per public school pupil last year.

    Perhaps if the citizens of Alabama cared more about educating their children the rest of us would make fewer jokes at their expense.

    Furthermore, while lord knows we yankees have to endure our share of bigots up here north of the Mason-Dixon line, no northern city that I know of has recently allowed a statue of KKK founder Nathan Bedford Forrest to be put up on municipal property, as Selma did in 2000(it has since been moved to private property). But, hey, I guess they were just honoring their heritage.

  • The only way to deal with these folks is to override their madness, legally and politically, so they return to the woodwork.

  • Most of them don’t really know what a liberal is. Just the cartoon stereotype.

    Merlallen, so it’s okay for your southern relatives to stereotype, but not okay for other people? How about condemning both as wrong?

    Just like we look at other cultures and say “the moderate muslims need to take steps to take their religion back from islamists who have hijacked it”…

    Zeitgeist, I don’t think it’s fair to blame all Muslims for the actions of some either. Just like Christianity, Islam is not a monolith. I didn’t expect Baptists, or even Catholics, to be constantly reassuring me that they didn’t support bombings by the IRA.

  • Oh, I agree you can’t blame all Muslims for the actions of some (that holds true for any defined group). What I do think is fair, however, is to suggest that inaction has consequences when your identity is being misused by fringe elements. In this example, the majority-Christian West cannot, in the long term, solve the problem of militant Taliban-style Islamism; out-groups lack credibility on the street and only provide a “them” for dogmatic leaders to use as a rallying point. Change ultimately has to come from the in-group — from moderate clerics, tribal leaders, statesmen condeming the fringe and preaching that extremism is not “true” Islam.

    Similar, to get back to the point of this thread, if Alabamans dont want the rest of the country to judge them by State Supreme Court Justice Candidates who are 200 years behind the times, they’d best make damned sure those candidates lose handily.

  • And similarly, since we didn’t make sure Bush lost handily in 2000 or 2004, it’s right for the rest of the world to assume you and I support him? It might be understandable for people to dislike all American visitors to their countries because of Bush, but it’s not right.

  • You and I individually, no. But like it or not, we can’t escape that it does tell the world something about our country. That is a little hard to ignore: we all complain in one way or another about that very fact day in and day out on this Board. This, in fact, was always one of my big arguments against Dumbya: the message it sends to the rest of the world. It is part of why I got more active in 2004, why I will be active in 2008. And whether the judicial candidates tell us anything about an individual Alabaman or not, they do tell us something about Alabama. It is not a slam, it is just a fact that Alabama is different from Wisconsin, or Massachusetts, or Hawaii. I’m sure some of those differences are positive. Some, however, are both objectively true and totally negative.

  • These fringe candidates will be defeated in the June 6 primary. While ALabama has its fair share of bafoons, the majority will show the rest of the country that we aren’t a backwards state.

    By the way…if you look at the donor lists for these fringe candidates, you’ll see that a majority of donors are from OUT OF STATE!!! That should tell you something.

  • I have been visiting Alabama since the first of the year. I see all the campaigning going on and the right-wingers go right after the fear tactics- touting “conservative values” “marriage being between a man and a woman” and so on. While scaring everyone to death and making them think they are about to be invaded by some gays, they are giving out taxpayer money to the corporations like mad; and if anyone utters “Union!”, they have a syndicate of about 80 large employers that have pooled their money and spend millions to crush any attempt by workers to address their issues. Many workers have no health or dental insurance, and any retirement they have is because they fund it with their own money. True conservatism. Mexico is Conservative, their workers have no fair rights and because of it, their economy will never advance. Conservatism doesn’t work. Conservatism means to kee the wealth in the hands of the few at the expense of the masses. Conservatism has put 90% of the wealth of the nation in the hands of 1% of the populus. It is a form of mind control to suppress the masses by the well-to-do that control the politics and media for their own gain. If our corporate government ever decided religion was bad for productivity or business, our corporate controlled government would outlaw religion; right now it serves a purpose so it is allowed. Alabamians are great, their not a bunch of hicks, and they deserve better, but they need to diverse themselves from blending religion with the economics of their livelihood because they are exploited. Karl Marx said religion was the opiate of the masses. We need to stop stereotyping and come together for the greater good of the working class. We divide ourselves over the race, creed, religion issues and our corporate controlled right-wing government is kicking our butts. The republicants will again roll out the homophobia because that is what gets them relected and corporate America is eating it up and undermining our rights with their help.

  • Based on the 39 comments I’ve read, most of you were not educated in Alabama, or anywhere else for that matter. To generalize the population of Alabama as a bunch of redneck crackers is as ignorant as you accuse Alabamians of being. Alabama is a beautiful state. Overall, the people are kind, thoughtful and generous. It is the self-righteous attitude that many of you display which causes Southerners to care less about your opinions. We should be able to disagree without all the hatred so evident in many of these comments. There is an old cliche about “cleaning up your own backyard” that I believe is appropriate here, thank-you. And MARTIN #21, unless you are being held prisoner, you should be able to leave the state if you dislike it so much.

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