The Clinton campaign hits the worst conservative frame yet

In a contested presidential primary, candidates are going to go after one another. It’s practically unavoidable. For that matter, it’s not always a bad thing to highlight differences and deal with criticisms the nominee is likely to hear again in a general election. It’s rarely fun for partisans to hear one leader from their party attack another, but it’s the inevitable byproduct of a competitive campaign.

The trick of it, though, is judging candidates in part on how they go on the offensive against their intra-party rivals.

From my personal vantage point, when I see a Dem go negative against another Dem, I use an informal criterion to judge its merit: is the criticism accurate? Is it fair? Is it hypocritical? And does it help or hurt the party’s broader message?

Given this, I can’t help but think Hillary Clinton’s latest mailing in Nevada may be one of the single most disappointing things her campaign has done this entire cycle. It targets Barack Obama on Social Security and taxes using the most blatantly Republican worldview possible.

The mailer — which was also dropped in New Hampshire before the primary — has some anti-tax, anti-Washington language that might sound out of place in a Dem contest. Such as: “Nevada families need to keep more of their hard-earned dollars — not less…”

And: “We need a President that will help hard-working families keep more of what they earn…”
There’s also a reference to Nevada families sending more of their “hard-earned dollars to Washington.”

The direct-mail adds that Obama embraces “a plan with a trillion dollar tax increase on America’s hard-working families.”

The Clinton campaign used the exact same mailing in New Hampshire and may have come to the conclusion that it helped give Clinton an edge.

That’s a genuine shame, because this mailing is completely ridiculous.

Here’s the test, point by point:

Is the criticism accurate? No. If Obama had proposed scrapping the cap completely, it would stand to bring in $1 trillion. But Obama has said repeatedly that he’s open to raising the cap, not scrapping it.

Is it fair? No. Obama has been quite candid about his approach to Social Security, and has described his plan at debates. Clinton was standing right there; her campaign can’t pretend they don’t know what Obama has repeatedly said.

Is it hypocritical? Shamelessly. Clinton has publicly conceded that she’s open to the exact same policy proposal Obama has made. If she’s attacking his willingness to raise the payroll cap, she’s attacking her own willingness to raise the payroll cap.

And does it help or hurt the party’s broader message? It undoubtedly hurts. Clinton’s mailing could have just as easily been written by the Republican National Committee or Grover Norquist. Clinton is using anti-tax rhetoric that Democrats usually reject as nonsense, not embrace as fodder for attacks against other Democrats. Talk about Dems using conservative frames, this is Exhibit A.

Obviously, politics ain’t beanbag. Clinton, Obama, and Edwards are going to take rhetorical shots at one another, and some of them are going to be cheaper than others. I get it.

But this mailing is really offensive from a Democratic perspective. When the Clinton campaign used it in New Hampshire, I’d hoped it was borne of desperation and wouldn’t be repeated. That’s it’s now become a standard arrow in Clinton’s quiver is deeply disappointing.

Oh, but the Clintons are the embodiment of all that’s good and holy within the Democratic Party.

How dare you not give them the benefit of all doubts, after everything they’ve done for you? Ingrate. Deviationist! Crypto-Republican!! CLINTON-HATER!!! Besides, it’s all that uppity guy’s fault!

(sorry, just figured I’d try to get in before the Hillapologists)

  • What surprises me is just how many of the Clinton attacks are demonstrably false (such as the “present” votes and this one), knowingly sent out as false (lies), trying to block voter turnout because the voters may not vote for her, and somehow that’s ok because she’s a Democrat?

    I know Obama and certainly Obama’s camp have not been total saints, but this is just ridiculous. Do we really want to replace the Republican Karl Rove with a Democratic one?

  • That may all be correct, but I don’t think it’s as bad as praising Reagan by name. If we’re telling voters we want to make them wealthier, that’s accurate. If we’re making them think we agree there was something broadly right with Reagan’s route, that’s not good. Clinton’s mailer does stop short of promoting “taxes are unilaterally bad” message.

  • Sounds like something Ronald Reagan might say.

    PS You must have a politically savvy spell check that knows it’s Reagan rather than Reagon. 🙂

  • “That’s a genuine shame, because this mailing is completely ridiculous.”

    Agree. In some ways I am happy that the Dem candidate will be for all intents and purposes selected by the time I get to vote in the primary.

  • Swan:

    Either you are getting bad information or you misunderstand Obama’s point about Reagan. He wasn’t praising him for his policies but for his ability to tap into the desires of the American people at the time. No comparison of Reagan and Clinton on who was a better president. Just who was a more transformative figure. It’s hard to argue with that reality (Reagan fundamentally changed the way Republicans positioned themselves and how they articulated their message), but it hasn’t stopped folks from trying. At least that’s my take on it (and I’m no fan of Reagan’s policies).

  • Swan@3 – following the links on what the Clinton campaign has released, and looking at the earlier posts on Obama-Reagan, I follow what you’re saying – yet I disagree.

    I think its worse “…than praising Reagan…”. Clinton’s mailer is deceptive. It’s going after Obama for supporting an idea that Clinton herself is supporting. Its Rovian!

    Obama did not from his left hand say one thing, while on the other hand say something else.

  • It seems that every Republican campaign is dominated by two themes: fear and greed. Although Obama still isn’t my first choice, I am attracted to his attempts to appeal to something more virtuous in us. Even if it is all hot air, it’s uplifting and hopeful. I need that badly after putting up with the Bush White House for so long.

    If Hillary is going to run this kind of a campaign, voters are likely to mistake her for one of the Republican candidates. I hope that the Democratic voters respond accordingly.

  • Steve: You’re going to thoroughly piss off all the Hillary Apparatchiki here if you keep pointing out things from the reality-based community that differ from their view of Her Wonderfulness.

    Nice to see that now matter how many “play nice” agreements the Clintons sign, their basic shitheadedness just can’t stop them from keeping on. It’s like dealing with a shark.

  • More from the Rovian playbook… I love it. The irony is unreal! And this the same day Obama praised Reagan!!!

  • Keith, a more detailed version of my response to Obama is, most people are not subtle enough to catch a nuance like what you are suggesting without having it, so to speak, marked for them with big red flashing lights, and then repeated to them three times. So in the context of running for president where everyone is paying attention– rather than in a context of writing for or being interviewed for some little-noticed, academic publication for more discerning readers– Obama should have just dropped the statement about Reagan if he didn’t want it to be taken as pro-Reagan. It was too much in one direction and not the other.

  • This smells of extreme desperation, because the cap issue is easily understood and relevant to enough people for them to pay attention to it. Their internal polls must be going south, maybe they’re seeing her NH female sympathy bump fading away as a one-off event.

    The Clinton campaign is actually reading directly from the Republican playbook, in that they are blatantly lying, in hopes of getting the support of the people who don’t pay attention real well (which is, unfortunately, a significant number of us).

  • Maybe she’s trying to convince folks that she can go toe-to-toe with the GOP candidate. After the last two presidential elections, she may feel that playing dirty is the only way to win.

    I hope her strategy gets called out and it backfires. She is acting way too deperate to trust.

  • I would like to say that no one here is stupid or deluded for supporting Obama. No one here is stupid or deluded for supporting Hillary. No one here is stupid or deluded for supporting Edwards.

  • Hill had better bring her campaign to heel soon or she will be her own Nader siphoning votes away from the party in search of a third way.

    The electorate in contested Democratic races so far have been large, excited and desirous of change. Hill is starting to look and sound more and more like the regime we’re trying to overthrow. She had better spend more time proving that she’s one of us rather than one of them.

  • I have come to the reluctant conclusion that the Clintons’ greatest political skill is that they talk like Democrats while acting like Republicans.

  • Exactly why I do not support Hillary. I don’t trust her. She is like the Republicans who will do anything in order to get elected. She has adopted the odious Rovian tactics.

  • And does it help or hurt the party’s broader message? It undoubtedly hurts. Clinton’s mailing could have just as easily been written by the Republican National Committee or Grover Norquist. Clinton is using anti-tax rhetoric that Democrats usually reject as nonsense, not embrace as fodder for attacks against other Democrats. Talk about Dems using conservative frames, this is Exhibit A.

    It’s all about the Clintons. The party and progressive issues be damned.

    And to everyone misinterpreting Obama’s Reagan comments, he was not praising Reagan’s policies. To assert that is to lose all credibility. Look at his biography and tell me’s some sort of Reagan Democrat. I didn’t think so.

    Obama was praising Reagan’s ability to tap into the mood of the country and use people’s desire for change to rewrite the political narrative into a conservative one. That’s a narrative that we’ve been living in until today. Obama recognizes that right now progressives have the opportunity to do the same thing (the fierce urgency of now, anyone?) and knows that he is the candidate to do it. Hillary Clinton most certainly is not that candidate.

    If you read Obama’s first book you’ll see that he’s been hoping for this “change” moment his whole adult life and recognizes that it has finally come. He does not want us to miss this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, and neither do I.

  • Swan @ 15- Think about what a rational republican or conservative independent must be scared of right now- what if we get a democrat in office who’s no better than what they have now- reactionary, vindictive, vengful and childish with an irrational hatred of what they believe in? Now you get a democrat who’s willing to say, with all truthfulness, that there were things the Reagan was very good at. That’s got to be reassuring.

    I wouldn’t be reading this site if I weren’t pretty progressive myself, but I want a president who is willing to be president to all Americans, not just the ones he likes. The reason Reagan got as much accomplished as he did (even if it wasn’t good) was because he got the support of more than 50% + 1. Why can’t we harness that for the forces of good?

  • So…Democrats believe in families having less money? Is that what you’re trying to say? That the more taxes, the better? Where’s the limit? Who decides ‘how much is enough’?

  • Swan–

    I think your analysis @15 only makes sense if you ignore the fact that he then made the comparison to JFK as well. I don’t think anyone is ignorant enough to mistake Reagan and JFK for idealogical twins. What they do share, and what Obama obviously also wants to share, was, on a superficial level, the capacity to get people excited by politics; on a more substantive level, an ability to tap into the social zeitgest and use that to mainstream their political ideas.

    You can only draw the conclusions you’re drawing if you purposefully take the quotes out of context (as many on the left have done…it’s interesting to see people on OpenLeft, for example, complaining bitterly that if he wanted to talk about setting the political debate, why not JFK? when Obama did invoke JFK right after discussing Reagan).

    It’s basically trashing him for saying something he didn’t say, specifically because it can be distorted. But in the process of trashing him, you serve to distort the comments yourself, which only lowers the discourse and does us all a disservice.

  • …no one here is stupid or deluded for supporting Obama…Hillary…[or] Edwards. -Dale

    What if I’m still pulling for a Kucinich or Gravel comeback? 🙂

  • Secretly-recorded conversation between “Hillary Omniscient” (HO) and unidentified “bipedal servant'(bs):

    (background noise: someone knocking at door)

    HO: ENTER AND FEAR ME BEYOND ALL ELSE!

    (background noise: creaking door hinges, followed by lage booming sound of royal chamber door slamming shut, accompanied by giggling cackle of flying monkeys and someone’s knees knocking like a Morse Code key on anabolic steroids)

    bs: y-y-y-your royal hillaryness?

    HO: HOW DARE YOU ADDRESS ME IN LOWER CASE FORMAT, YOU FILTHY LIBERAL SCUM!?! BOW BEFORE ME AND BEG FOR YOUR LIFE!!!

    BS: b-b-b-but your most high empress, you commanded all your serfs, minions, underlings, and hench-type-persons to never rise to your level—and i bring very important news about your arch-nemesis, the obama….

    HO: AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRGGHH!!! YOU DARE TO MENTION THAT NAME IN MY MOST HIGH PRESENCE?!? CHOOSE YOUR METHOD OF DEATH QUICKLY!!!

    bs: i-i-i-i-i must deliver this most secret message from high lord rove, telling of the obama’s plan to build bridges between the forces of democracy and the wavering allies of the rethuglican empire.

    HO: WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?!? BRIDGES BETWEEN DEMOCRATS AND RETHUGLICANS? I DON’T NEED FILTHY LITTLE BRIDGES TO REACH RETHUGLICANS!!! I AM A RETHUGLICAN!!! NOW DIE A PITEOUS DEATH, SERVILE SCUM!!!

    (background noise of someone being thrown head-first into a giant meat-grinder)

    (end recording)

    ***

    Okay, dajafi—you think that’ll bait the Hillapologists?

  • dnA said:

    Paul Krugman says we should. Shouldn’t we all do what he says?

    Nice dig. And you are right.

    I get the feeling that Krugman evaluates candidates according to how much their “plans” are skewed to the left. He never dares mention feasibility of implementation.
    That is simply not a part of his calculus.
    Which makes his opinion basically worthless in the world of politics.

    Don’t get me wrong. Krugman is a a good egg.
    But let’s get real:
    Anybody who thinks Hillary’s or Edward’s or even Obama’s slightly less ambitious health care plan is going to get passed in the next two years is drinking kool aid.

    Ain’t gonna happen.
    Not over that supermajority veto weapon the Republicans have.
    Even if they lose seats in November… watch: They will find a way to stall it out…

    Nope it is going to take at least 4 years.
    Quite simply: The Dems are going to have to win the midterms in 2002.

    The question should be:
    Whose got the best chance of NOT motivating an angry Republican backlash in 2010?

    Obviously:
    Someone whose character, words, and politeness attempt to transcend the red blue divide.

    No where does Krugman consider these variables.
    So his analysis really isn’t worth much.

    One last thing:

    If the Dems lose the midterms in 2010 healthcare is probably out the window for at least another 4 years.

  • Regarding Clinton campaign tactics, as I have already said here before: if it looks like poo, splats like poo and smells like poo….it is probably poo.

    Something stinks in camp Hill.

    What we really need is a complete shake up of the political establishment, but since that is not likely to happen the next best thing is a leader who can inspire us without driving every last person on the other side of the aisle into guerilla war tactics. Do any of you really believe Hillary Clinton can unite this country?

  • John said: If you read Obama’s first book you’ll see that he’s been hoping for this “change” moment his whole adult life and recognizes that it has finally come. He does not want us to miss this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, and neither do I.

    Hoping for change, waiting for the right moment – and I’m to believe that Obama becomes a man of action, perhaps complete with some sort of cape and maybe some tights, if he’s elected? He sees himself as a catalyst that will enable others to make the changes – and I would submit that the conditions and policies of the Bush administration are catalyst enough, we know what needs to be done, and we need to get it done. The country is already on board – the real work, the real persuasion, the real nuts-and-bolts is going to come at the legislative level – and we’ve been hammering our members of Congress for years now to do the right things – and look where we are.

    I don’t need persuading and prodding to know that change is needed – I’m over all the talk – and the more I hear from Obama, the less convinced I am that he is the one to get things done.

  • Anne, what would you like to hear?

    Also, given that you’re an Edwards supporter, what has he said that convinces you he can “get things done”? I understand he’s the son of a millworker; is that it?

    I think Obama has a great deal more substance than Edwards, who seems to be offering mostly the emotional satisfaction of a frontal assault on entrenched economic power. That appeals to me too; I just don’t think it will work. But I don’t see a whole lot of “there” there.

  • It’s easy to be dismissive of Obama when you’ve already decided you’d choose another candidate. Twisting facts and meanings into something that supports your perspectives is a typical response to a threat to your candidate, and is the standard for most voters. By the same token, it’s easier to ignore the less than virtuous acts of your candidate that would have otherwise been jarring.

    I haven’t decided yet who I’m voting for, but in the end it will be the democratic nominee because my views are generally aligned the same. I can say this though, it’s alot easier to get to the truth about a candidate’s position when you’re open enough to remove the pre-concieved bias and genuinely listen to what he/she has to say.

  • dajafi:

    Anne, what would you like to hear?

    I’m thinking maybe John Kerry in 2003 droning on with one of those interminable lists on the things he plans on getting done. You know… where the applause decreases as a function of the number of bulleted points.

    There is a time and place for that… of course.
    And all of these candidates can produce such a list… or course.

    But in this part of the election race course…
    It’d be suicide to pull out such a shopping list of yawns.

    That’s why, you can safely bet, we going to hear much more about that old mill…

  • Hoping for change, waiting for the right moment – and I’m to believe that Obama becomes a man of action, perhaps complete with some sort of cape and maybe some tights, if he’s elected? -Anne

    I can understand the reaction to the image that his campaign and to some extent the media has created about Obama, but this isn’t the first time, even today, that you’ve said something like this that is so dismissive of Obama’s actual accomplishments.

    It’s not like the rhetoric that Edwards or Clinton or any of the candidates use is all that different. They’ve all used some variation on the theme of change and the being the agent to bring it about.

    None of them have been sitting alone in their rooms rubbing their hands together hoping and waiting as you imply. They’ve all been doing things, both in elected offices and out of elected offices, and it seems as if you are particularly dismissive of any of Obama’s accomplishments.

    Prefer him or not, it makes no difference to me, but your insistence that Obama is nothing but hot air is as disingenuous as my once held belief that Clinton’s years as First Lady did not impart experience.

  • I don’t trust Edwards – I don’t think his newfound positions on pretty much everything under the sun (the war, trade with China, bankruptcy bill etc) are sincere. He “fought” against powerful interests “all his life”, except when he was in the Senate or running for president in 2004?

    Hillary again is old news – the same Terry McAuliffe, the same Mark Penn, the same Rovian scare tactics.

    To me endorsements matter, not the John Kerry type, but my primary issue is forein policy, and I think the best minds in FP today are Brian Katulis, Larry Korb, Joe Cirncione, etc – they all endorse Obama, and Obama’s positions clearly reflect their views. So I have decided I am voting for Obama. (in the Ohio primary that doesn’t matter anyway but I still will.)

  • I’ve said on more than one occasion that while I do support Edwards, I am prepared to vote for whichever one of the contenders gets the Democratic nomination. Part of getting me to a decent level of comfort with someone other than Edwards is in the analysis – I’m happy to put my questions out there and have someone answer them for me.

    If Edwards were getting more coverage, I expect you would see and hear more of the “there” that you aren’t seeing now. Clinton can’t blink without someone being all over her – rightly or wrongly. Obama seems to be getting plenty of coverage, but I don’t think it equates to scrutiny. And maybe part of what I’m feeling is irritation at how flawed the process is – how it’s hard for people just tuning in to have a clue about these candidates and what they’re all about. When my husband and I watch the news at night, I’m like the “interpreter,” – providing my husband with the stuff the media hasn’t seen fit to tell the viewers, and filling in the details that matter.

    I am listening to Obama – as I am to Clinton. I even force myself to listen to Republicans, as hard as that is.

    It just makes me feel uncomfortable that there is such a level of adoration for Obama that I don’t think he’s earned – and I worry that people are allowing that to make them forget just how big the tasks ahead of us are.

  • Ohioan makes an important point. Obama’s foreign policy advisers generally consist of the people who got it right on Iraq (and Iran); Clinton’s, not so much.

    Any suggestion that this might have to do with the Clintons’ bias toward use of force as Good Politics is purely intentional.

  • Clinton is a liar. If it takes lying to win the nomination then she will lie. Bill will lie. They cant be trusted. They recognize they dont have to convince everyone. They just need to sway a few thousand votes away from Obama. Grrr.. I hate them. If she wins the nomination..Im going to either obstain or vote Republican.

  • Anne, with respect, I’ve seen a lot of Edwards–not so much through the MSM, but C-SPAN, the debates, and other formats in which he gets some chance to expound. I just don’t see it.

    I’d support him (as I probably wouldn’t Clinton), and I’m sympathetic to the argument that he has so few chances to break through the filter that he has to keep going back to The Mill, and the guy with the cleft palate, and the other mainstays of his stump speech. But I haven’t heard the substance. I’m a policy analyst; the substance matters to me. (This is also why I wish Clinton would stick to it–she’s a pretty appealing candidate on those grounds, but whatever goodwill I start feeling toward her when she stays topical on domestic policy evaporates when she lurches back into Smear-land.)

    I think it’s there with Obama, even when I don’t fully agree (e.g. healthcare). I’m still waiting for it from Edwards. I have enough faith in his intellect that I’d happily enough vote for him, but he’s my second choice in large part because I feel he hasn’t delivered the goods.

  • dajafi – your criticism of Edwards is fair. It may be that since both Edwards and Obama are more about the message than the substance, I prefer the action message than the hope for change message.

    And I see more triangulation in Obama, too, which bothers me – as it does with Clinton.

    Argh. Going to slog home in the snow and go sit in front of a nice fire with a glass of merlot and just mellow…

  • This mailer is exactly the reason Hillary was last on my list of favorite Dems, when we had 9 candidates.So she’s still last with only 3, plus 2. Yes, I trust that her record is pretty progressive. I hate the dirty politics and I hate the right-wing talking points. 15 effing years we’ve lived like this. And I for one am sick of it. Edwards is my first choice Feb 5, because his positioning is most like my own. And I’ll vote for Hillary in the general if I absolutely must. But I am sick of this type of politics. And I don’t mind fighting over policy differences, I fully expect the Dem candidate to go full throated and wrap George W around the throat of the eventual Rep candidate and drown them all in his rancidity. But no, the dirty lies just to win is what I am sick of. No thanks Hil.

  • Anne, good point. Also probably relevant is the post ROFL made @34–all these candidates do have substantive policies. It’s just not accepted strategy, for whatever reason, to go on about them.

    Arguing against myself (like any good liberal…), I remember all the commentary that Edwards, far from not having much substance, has actually set the agenda on poverty, health care, and other domestic issues in this campaign. I can credit that. And last summer I remember reading all these criticisms of Obama’s “professorial” style on the stump–that he was too far in the weeds of policy and not offering enough “inspiration” of the type that had so thrilled people at the ’04 convention.

    Given the final point that nobody thinks there’s all that much daylight between the three on policy substance, maybe we shouldn’t gnash our teeth over the notion that this is (to use Mark Schmitt’s phrase) a “theory of change” election. The problem with that, though, is that it’s such a crap shoot–nobody knows what really will work.

  • Since Iowa, my wife (a Democrat) decided that if Senator Clinton becomes the Democratic nominee, then she won’t vote for anybody in the general (if necessary, I’ll work to persuade her otherwise). I mention this because Clinton already has a difficult time with independents. So why does she seem to be bending over backwards to insult Democrats as well?

  • Also probably relevant is the post ROFL made @34–all these candidates do have substantive policies. It’s just not accepted strategy, for whatever reason, to go on about them.

    I suspect that is because the differences between them on policy are subtle enough that they don’t fit in a 30-second spot or a 30-second debate answer, and because the differences really are pretty small compared to the difference any of them would have, policy wise, with any leading Republican candidate.

    As for the SS payroll tax mailer, I don’t know that she says anything that is a lie in it; it says Obama will raise the cap, which is true. The rest comes down to how one defines middle class. So on the style I’m not terribly troubled (as I’ve said before, I get the impression that the folks here – especially the Obama supporters – really just don’t want her to campaign at all, or at least not against him. I’m not sure how that is supposed to work.)

    On substance, however, if this paints her into changing her prior position that she could support raising the cap, I would be disappointed. I’ve always felt that attacking the cap (if positioned correctly) is a great issue for Democrats and and easy, fair and logical way to defuse any Social Security “crisis.”

  • For the person who said Obama’s Clintonites are the ones who got Iraq right, Obama’s Clintonite foreign policy advisors are also the ones who advised Clinton not to do anything in Rawanda, while Hillary was begging him to intervene there to stop genocide.

    As to the SS, I dont understand why the cap isnt lifted completely. But why people get into such a snit when she does or says anything and so protective and explaining of anything Barrack says thats wrongheaded or empty of specifics is way beyond my poor ability to cipher. Sometimes I think we should return to the time of Lincoln when the nominee did not even campaign at all, only his surrogates did. Of course, they could say anything they wanted to and the candidate was not bound by any of it, but it kept the candidate out of the ugly side of campaigning.

    I will say again as I have been saying to everyone who listens, if you decide to sit the election out if HRC is the nominee, or vote Republican, you are no progressive nor are you a friend of progressives, but you are deciding an issue of enormous national importance on a snit. In fact, that attitude means you really shouldnt be voting Democratic in the first place. Calm the heck down and quit reading the news if you have to, but for the sake of the Supreme Court if nothing else it is CRITICALLY important that a Democrat make the next appointment. Right now there are 4 guaranteed ultra-conservative votes on the Court: Roberts, Alito, Sclia and Thomas. One more of such ilk and the Court is lost to progressives for 20 years and a great deal of damage will be done undoing the good work of the past. So please quit the “I wont vote for her if she is the nominee” crap, which is little more than childlike impotent rage. Its not going to change anyone’s mind nor is it helpful to the future of our nation which, after all is what this whole thing is supposed to be about. Keep the goal in mind if you are a true Democrat and/or progressive. And if you would vote for Romney or McCain over Clinton, and see another Scalia appointed to the Court, please just change parties now and get it over with. For the record, I have serious doubts about Obama on a multitude of issues including his experience and readiness, and his (what I believe to be a fantasy) that you can somehow bring around the Republican opposition by being really nice and reaching out to them. The Dems in Congress have practically french kissed the Republicans and I see no sign whatsoever that they will yield or compromise their NO NO NO viewpoints. I am also highly suspect of the way he tried to make innocuous comments on Martin Luther King into a race fight. But I will happily and enthusiastically support him as the nominee as I will ANY Democratic nominee.

  • Jammer, for myself, I won’t vote for Hillary in part because I live in New York–a state she or any Democrat will win anyway.

    If I lived in anyplace remotely competitive–or if the stupid Electoral College was abolished or rendered irrelevant–I’d like to think I would defer to practicality as you suggest. As things stand, though, I and anyone else in a non-competitive state can do with our totally irrelevant votes whatever we choose, without any consequence.

  • …you are no progressive nor are you a friend of progressives, but you are deciding an issue of enormous national importance on a snit. -Jammer

    Actually, I decided long ago I’d never vote for anyone who authorized the war in Iraq because I couldn’t live with knowing that in some way I supported the careers of people who caused thousands of unnecessary deaths.

    You call it a snit. I call it principle.

  • doubtful said:

    …no one here is stupid or deluded for supporting Obama…Hillary…[or] Edwards. -Dale

    What if I’m still pulling for a Kucinich or Gravel comeback? 🙂

    🙂 Nope, still not stupid or deluded. I heard that there’s no such thing as false hope.

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