The flip-side to the Clinton-Obama race-based dispute

I’m perfectly content — delighted, in fact — to move past the recent race-based unpleasantness between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. Reasonable people can disagree about the specifics, most notably about whether the Clinton campaign intentionally coordinated a series of racially provocative comments, but I think most would agree that it’s best if the campaign(s) move on.

But before we do, there was one other point I’ve been mulling over. Is it possible the Clinton campaign is indirectly making a point about general-election toughness?

This probably seems silly at first blush. Indeed, it probably is silly upon further examination. But one of the underlying criticisms of the Obama campaign is that Obama, to borrow John Edwards’ word, is “nice.” Clinton, in contrast, is saying she knows the Republican Attack/Smear Machine all too well, and she’s willing to play rough with the GOP if she’s the nominee.

Now, consider that narrative in the context of the last week or so. As Matt Yglesias put it:

I won’t even pretend to be appalled by Clinton’s cynicism — the disenfranchisement gambit and all the rest — because, frankly, the idea that Clinton would use dishonest political tactics to beat the GOP is, in my view, probably the most appealing thing about her.

Now, Matt concludes that he thinks “Obama is clearly the better option,” and in all likelihood, he was probably kidding, at least a little, about the Clinton campaign’s “most appealing” feature.

But is this a point that might actually have merit?

Put it this way: how rough and tumble is Clinton willing to play in 2008? So much so that she supports a lawsuit in Nevada that would make it more difficult for working-class union members, many of whom are minorities, to vote in a Democratic caucus. She’s playing is so rough that her campaign can reasonably be accused of sparking an ugly and divisive dispute over race — in a Democratic primary.

In other words, the Clinton campaign might subtly argue right now, “If you think we’re taking some cheap shots with Obama, just wait until we’re taking on the Republicans in the fall.”

To be sure, I really doubt the Clinton team would ever make this argument, even privately, even in jest. But the thought has occurred to me, and apparently Ygleasias, and I doubt we’re not the only ones.

After the Robert Johnson nonsense, Ezra noted a possible Clinton strategy.

It’s hard to imagine this many sophisticated, liberal political operators making this many mistakes, of this type. Not saying it’s impossible, merely hard to imagine. And so it’s worth wondering if there’s not a coordinated strategy among the Clintons to force a conversation over race. Not a conversation that will be harmful to Obama — the Clintons have, after all, had to spend a fair amount of time apologizing, and clarifying — but a conversation that will be harmful to his message. If Obama has to spend a lot of time talking about race, it’s hard for him to be the post-racial candidate. If he has to spend a lot of time on divisive topics, it’s hard for him to make an appeal for unity. And if he gets thrown off message at this point in the campaign, it will be exceedingly hard for him to blunt Clinton’s momentum. And, whether it’s a coordinated strategy on the part of the Clintons or not, it’s definitely what’s happening.

It prompted Kevin to respond, “Yeah, it’s worth wondering, all right. And the ‘coincidence’ theory is looking pretty ragged. All I can say is: from where I sit this looks both deliberate and revolting.”

Yes, but what if the Clinton campaign is somewhere thinking, “But we want to be revolting for you!”

For what it’s worth, Isaac Chotiner notes that if this, even accidentally, is part of Clinton’s thinking, it’s probably a mistake.

If Clinton is indeed cynical, and has no qualms about depressing caucus turnout and using other unsavory means to beat Obama, the rational assumption to make is that Clinton will do almost anything to get elected. Since, I would assume, one of Matt’s main hopes for a Democratic administration is that it will be tough and ruthless with Republicans on policy, surely this sort of cravenness is exactly what he does not want. People who blow with the political wind are much more likely to compromise and find a perfect “middle-ground” on every issue. If he thinks that the Clinton campaign’s “toughness” with Obama is a sign that it will be tough on ideological or policy matters, he has things completely backward.

Food for thought.

It’s part of her appeal to me. I feel kind of like the father in “Dexter”, where he teaches his son to be a moral serial killer, then the reality of seeing Dexter’s first dismembered body makes him vomit. I like the fact that Hillary can play tough, but when I actually see her do it, I want to throw up.

  • If that is true, and Dems are attracted to that attribute, I guess Rove had a point after all…

  • “If Clinton is indeed cynical, and has no qualms about depressing caucus turnout and using other unsavory means to beat Obama, the rational assumption to make is that Clinton will do almost anything to get elected. Since, I would assume, one of Matt’s main hopes for a Democratic administration is that it will be tough and ruthless with Republicans on policy, surely this sort of cravenness is exactly what he does not want. People who blow with the political wind are much more likely to compromise and find a perfect “middle-ground” on every issue.”

    This is an incoherent thought wrapped around an incorrect word choice:

    cra·ven:
    –adjective 1. cowardly; contemptibly timid; pusillanimous.
    –noun 2. a coward.
    –verb (used with object) 3. to make cowardly.
    —Idiom4. cry craven, to yield; capitulate; give up.

    Many may find Clinton’s tactics contemptible, but I suspect very few would characterize them as contemtibly timid.

  • You know CB I wonder that you never, ever seem to quote the Clinton’s position that the Obama campaign is playing games by misconstuing whatever they can about Hillary’s statements, even when the majority of your posters think that’s exactly what Obama did his “unfortunate and ill-advised” crack against the JFK/MLK/LBJ comment.

    These guys are SO playing not nice, on both sides. And the scar tissue Obama will get from Hillary will never match the scar tissue she’s gotten from the Rethugs. Obama and Edwards may think they are ready for prime time, but if they are flinching from Hillary, rather than wading in, then they aren’t going to handle the 527’s who will back McCain (or really just attack them) much less the direct attacks from the other possible Republican’t opponents.

    I may hate the Rovian tactics I’ve seen, since they are essentially dishonest, and the Clintonian tactics, which are just exploitive, but that seems the level of political discourse in this country today, and other than an occasional article in the Post about candidate accuracy and visits to factcheck.org (haven’t been there for a year), nobody in the Media seems to be calling the campaigns on their fabrications and distortions.

    Sigh.

  • But here is where our unease over race comes into play.

    a conversation that will be harmful to his message. If Obama has to spend a lot of time talking about race, it’s hard for him to be the post-racial candidate. If he has to spend a lot of time on divisive topics, it’s hard for him to make an appeal for unity. And if he gets thrown off message at this point in the campaign, it will be exceedingly hard for him to blunt Clinton’s momentum.

    In any other campaign, we would all have our political junkie, arm-chair campaign manager hats on and we would look at the other side’s themes and say “its important that we get them off message and get the discussion back on our terms.” If our opponent in the fall is Huckabee, running as the Christian candidate, we’ll have two choices – portray that as a bad thing, or if the public seems to want a Christian candidate anyway, show his “un-Christian” words and deeds to deny him the ability to define himself. If it is Romney, runningas the uber-manager, we’ll paint him as a flip-flopper. If it is McCain, running on experience, we’ll refer to it as “old.” And we’ll wake up every morning hoping that our side has, or can take, the momentum.

    In other words, that whole italicized paragraph above from Steve’s top post can be summed up in a single term: campaigning. It isn’t inherently dirty, it isn’t inherently unfair, it isn’t inherently “Rovian.” This is what good campaigns do: blunt the opponent’s strengths, try to win the battle of who defines each other, try to control the agenda, and to keep momentum in your court.

    The wildly myopic part is that I see people posting who have discussed 2004, or in 2006, and the lead-up to 2008 (before the field began to come into clearer focus) understood all of this. People who complained about how weak the Dems were against Republicans, how we were always out-maneuvered, and promoting better strategic thinking of exactly the kind of objectives I outline in the prior paragraph. But those same people cry foul when the opponent that is subject of the strategy is Obama.

    When John Kerry did these same calculations against Dean, or Edwards against Kerry, no one says a thing. When McCain does them against Romney, we all snicker with glee. The only difference here is that it is Obama. There are only three reasons that may be different – and none of them should matter. (1) People have gotten stoned on the ‘HOPE’ kool-aid and so the normal rules of politics offend them because Obama is not just a candidate, he is the messiah; (2) he’s black, which conveniently lets people brand run-of-the-mill (albeit hardball) politics as “racist” or “Rovian”; or (3) because the person on the other side is a woman, and we all know that when women do the same tough things, in politics or business, that men do, they are “bitchy” even though men doing the same would be “tough, effective, strong.”

  • If the republican slime machine goes into full throttle again in 2008, I don’t want a candidate that will slime BACK. That will just make us lose the moral high ground and make the slime machine even more potent.

    I want a candidate who will shrug off the slime by clearly and openly identifying and denouncing it. And the person to do that is Barack Obama.

  • “Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.” – Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

    I’m not comfortable with the argument that we should support Clinton because she’s an experienced target of the Repubs and can therefore out-asshole them. Obama seems to be finessing her very handily and if there’s one thing Republicans absolutely do not understand it’s finesse.

  • I do think that Clinton and Obama need to be ready to wage a war, and to do so with ruthless abandon (within the law, of course). If either one can’t do that, then they need to stand down. That said, playing hardball against Dems is a really bad idea because it sows disunity. We need to remember who we’re really up against, and not get complacent.

    Look at the Republicans. They are desperate, cornered, rabid animals. They blatantly lie and dare anyone to say they’re liars. Because of Bush’s horrible performance, the “conservative” brand that the corporate bastards have been hiding behind is at risk of extinction. So are they going to play fair in this election, or are they going to play hardball?

    This election is going to be the nastiest one ever, and anyone who can’t stand to Democrats play hardball better STFU, because playing softball is how we got where we are right now.

    I think both Obama and Clinton are smart enough to play hardball, or maybe that’s just me hoping. Doing it now… is not a good idea.

  • Have I mentioned in the last 90 seconds how tired I am of the Clintons? Much like Bill, HRC is one g-ddamned drama after another, and although she has some positives, she’s just not worth the maintenance. As for the use of dishonest political tactics being attractive, if that’s what got me off, I’d be a Republican. My gosh, they’ve given Dems an entire arsenal of legitimate ammunition to use against them. Why sink to their level unless…

  • I think one weakness both Dem campaigns share is hair-trigger outrage.

    Blacks are understandably angry over the bad treatment they’ve received and are ready to respond to any slight with a lot of anger. Likewise (although, of course, not equal in gravity) there are many people who are understandably angry over the bad treatment the Clinton’s have received at the hands of the Vast Rightwing Conspiracy and their minions. They, too, are ready to respond to perceived slights with a lot of anger.

    Both of these prepared-to-be-outraged groups will be a key Republican target. They will try to elicit this outrage so that it seems disproportionate to their provocation and use this to denigrate Democrats.

    So these recent dustups are good preparation for the general election, no matter how unpleasant they are right now.

    (Other candidates not mentioned in this comment are Edwards and Kucinich)

  • I don’t think the issue is really one of whether Obama is too “nice”. But rather how he will do in a really hotly contested presidential election. I must admit to having some worries about Obama in a general election. Remember, he’s really never fought a tough, contested race since he won his state senate seat (and there is some debate about that, too). In the general election for his US Senate seat, the Republican candidate who was the heavy favorite dropped out and Obama faced Alan Keyes—-a man who could be charitably described as a less than formidable opponent. So, in terms of contested elections won, he’s basically going from the Illinois State Senate to the White House in a single bound. As a sort of political horse-race question, I just wonder how he will do when/if the media and the conservatives turn on him—right now, he’s the messiah and beloved by (and claimed by) both liberals and conservatives but what happens if the spell breaks before November?

  • Yeah, I don’t think it’s a “message” from her CB, and I don’t think she sent out the statements that her underlings made that were part of the “controversy.” I attribute them to her subordinates, not to her.

  • I had the impression that Obama threw the first elbow in this dust-up. It strikes me that he had more to gain. Regardless, I have thought that the toughness factor might be a subtext on both sides. I’m only concerned to the extent that we sensitive souls get upset about our intra-party squables and fail to support the nominee.

    Last year, I read an intersting article on TNR’s site about the unpleasantness and dirty tricks of GOP intra-party politics. It went along way toward explaining why they’re so nasty in a general election. The article closed with the question, “who do you want to bring to a knife fight?” That’s not an unreasonable question to contemplate at the moment.

  • Beep raises a good point. That’s what bugs me about Hillary. They don’t need to be dishonest — they just need to start attacking the GOP on what they’ve actually done.

  • Tamalak, I really dont agree that turning the other cheek is the way to beat the Republican slime-hate machine. Just my opinion.

    On the topic generally, if people bothered to study history any more they would discover that Presidential campaigns have been filled with dirty pool and tactics almost from the start of the nation. A great deal is at stake. These campaigns are tame by comparison and with the thought police jumping all over anyone who opens their mouth at all they may become tamer still. For the record, I thought that the bouhaha that erupted over the JFK-King-LBJ comments was stupid. You could quibble with HRC’s point as to how things get done, but there was not the slightest shred of racism to the comment at all. So to me that one goes on Obama’s side of the ledger as trying to USE race to create an issue out of the comments. Neither of them are clean and it doesnt bother me at all. If they cant stand it, they dont deserve to win. They should fight HARD and whomever is the nominee will be stronger for it, although sometimes I imagine that if Obama is the nominee, when his supporters hear what the Repubs have to say about him their heads will all explode. Its a rough political world out their folks. Obama knows that and is fighting hard too. I am not at all sure many of his supporters know that. Turning the other cheek to the Right Wing Hate Machine wont work, however, as that is basically what Dems have done over the past 20 years with the exception of Bill Clinton, and look where it has gotten them. Very high Congressional Dem ratings, no?

  • I think Kevin should consider that the same events we saw could also be the result of the Republicans having some plants or some people they bought off who they are ordering to make some believable gaffes so they can have people go after Clinton on race.

    It’s actually more believable than Kevin’s “Clinton is a crass person who doesn’t care about race” theory. Occam’s Razor. Clinton it too smart to open up herself to criticism and her political career to chaos by purposely making these clumsy maneuvers. If Kevin is just getting scared of the Rovian smear machine and wants to be on record saying he doesn’t believe in the bogeyman, he should just keep his damned mouth shut instead of going after Clinton.

    Anybody else who is worried about Republicans, why not just not talk about it instead of helping the Republicans by letting them intimidate you into making ridiculous statements? We don’t live in the old East Germany yet.

  • What liberal politician would purposely make the extremely risky maneuver of making themselves look like a racist?

    It’s the simple question that makes Kevin look like a real idiot today.

  • Amazing…no matter what it is…Clinton is always blamed for being wrong about it.
    I’m so sick of “identity” issues and wish we could focus more on substance issues…Iraq, Global warming, health care, the economy, immigration, education…rather than race, gender, and campaign tactics.

    No matter what any of the dems candidates say or do just compare it to what the repubs have already said or done that put us in this mess.

    Obama is the least progressive candidate and actually has the least amount of plans for change, yet uses the word change the most. We are being sold the man and not his stand on the issues. His ability to get compromise will be the result of his being able to make us accept the corporate plans for us. His likability makes it easier for him to sell us the ideas of big business and get us to accept it.

  • “Just as dirty as the Republicans, but in the cause of righteousness” doesn’t do a whole lot for me. I mean, who is more convinced of his essential righteousness than George W. Bush? And just as I detest his sense of entitlement to The Throne, I detest the Clintons’.

    The real point here to me is that any campaign in which Hillary Clinton competes will be *about* Hillary Clinton. The Democratic Party, about which I don’t give much of a shit at this point, and the United States of America, about which I care desperately, needs the 2008 election to be *about* the disaster of Bushism and the home truth that Bush represents not a departure from “conservatism” as the word is now understood, but the pinnacle (nadir) of it.

    To be honest, Edwards is probably the candidate best positioned to wage a general election campaign on these grounds. But for reasons both legitimate and unfair, he’s been drummed out of the conversation. That leaves Obama, who brings tremendous talent and relatively little baggage to the table–and whom in his own right is probably a stronger candidate than Edwards anyway.

  • I think zeitgeist has it right – that this is just campaigning, and it’s no dirtier than it’s ever been. The difference is that we have a person of color and a woman in the race, and those candidacies are rhetorical and strategic minefields, both for the candidate him- or herself, and for his or her opponents.

    In 2004, we were beside ourselves that John Kerry chose to stay above the fray and not hit back hard against the swift-boaters; he allowed their message to go relatively unopposed for news cycle after news cycle, to the point where it stuck with voters. He chose to be a gracious loser after the vote was in, and did not challenge what were serious problems in Ohio, which was, in my opinion a huge mistake.

    So here we are in 2008, having had some success in 2006, and looking to make some significant changes in the political composition of the Congress and the Oval office. For a long time, we figured it would be a cakewalk – Bush was so unpopular, one Republican after another was being indicted or investigated, and the hearings before various committees shed some light on the extent of the Republicans’ thirst for power. Iraq was not going well and the economy was beginning to fray.

    We have an excellent field of Democratic candidates, but it is a mistake to assume that none of them need to be tested, pressured, or fight for the nomination of the party.

    My sense is that each of the contenders is attempting to undercut the effectiveness of the others’ messages. Clinton is determined that this battle will not be undertaken with any handicaps for race or gender, and wants to prove that she is as tough as any man – a battle many women understand all too well. Obama seems to think he need not say a whole lot on the issue of race because his color speaks for itself, but he wants to limit Clinton’s ability to say anything without it being viewed under the microscope – with the hope, I think, that she will get so tentative that she will begin to look weak. Edwards can’t get a word in edgewise between these two, at least as far as media coverage is concerned, but at least we have a debate tonight where he will get some time to deliver his own message.

    Yes, I want the nominee of this party to be able to fight for us, for our agenda, for our country’s future, and I do not believe that will be a fight that will always be able to be conducted “nicely.” If Obama thinks the GOP will give him the same kid-glove treatment he’s been getting, he is deluded. It won’t matter to them that he’s honorable or has integrity or inspires hope – in fact, that will be why they will go after him with all they have.

    Hillary is a realist – she knows exactly how ugly it’s going to be, and perhaps believes that if she can survive this preliminary trial by fire, she will go into the general election with some advantage. And if she can provoke the GOP to be uglier than it has ever been, it will showcase her as the more positive candidate.

    Edwards knows you can’t play nice with the GOP, so I would not expect him to dither around as he is attacked – not after 2004.

    In my fantasy world, the race is oh-so-genteel, it is the issues that matter and people are civil and respectful. There is so much at stake in this election, that if we aren’t willing to do whatever we have to to win,short of breaking the law – we may once again walk away with our honor and dignity intact, but we won’t be walking into the White House.

    Sorry this is so long…

  • I read after the 2004 election that in the waning days of the race, Bill Clinton advised Kerry to endorse the various Republican-sponsored anti-gay amendments on the ballot in states like Florida and Ohio.

    Kerry refused to do this–a principled decision that, unlike much else in how he conducted that campaign, made me proud to have voted for him.

    Should he have done it? Should he have taken Bill’s advice and climbed onboard the bigotry train to improve his odds of victory?

    I suggest that your answer to this question tells a great deal about how comfortable you are with ends-justify-means Clintonism. “Playing hardball” sounds great in theory–who doesn’t want to win?–but in reality it entails some very, very ugly choices and actions.

  • dajafi – can’t speak for anyone else, but I’m not talking about giving up bedrock issues like the ones you mention; I’m talking about standing ground and hitting back on matters of substance.

    Of Clinton, Obama and Edwards, I see Edwards as least likely to give ground, and Obama most likely, with Clinton closer to Obama than to Edwards.

    I think, to Edwards’ credit, he has moved Obama and Clinton closer to his positions on a number of issues, which is why I would be happy for him to stay in the race – ultimately with the hope of winning it, but if not, to keep Clinton and Obama from drifting too center-right on a lot of things.

  • The lawsuit isn’t about working class union members in Nevada, substance versus form, it is about their union bosses voting on their behalf. The union had been supposed to endorse who the members wanted, instead the leaders cut a deal with Obama. Now, these people will be in an open caucus with their shop stewards likely to be watching. It would be indeed gutsy to go against the union/stewards in Nevada.

    The caususes are held at schools, with the teachers required to work at them, putting the teachers in the same situation as the casino workers as far as being away from their home precinct goes.

  • dajafi, i think Kerry made the right call on that one – on the substance of what you want to do when governing, you can’t roll over. but it is the process that is much more fair game. i happen to think, for example, that after the Cleland=bin Laden TV spot ran, Cleland should have knocked Chambliss over with the wheelchair and rolled back and forth across his neck until he was well beyond dead, and then a few more times for good measure. Thats a candidate I would have be proud to have supported. i am troubled by the Clinton/Obama fight; i wish they would dial it way back. but come fall, there is really nothing so ugly, nothing so vile, nothing so shocking that it can come within light years of being what those goat raping Republicans deserve. they will still be getting off far too easy for the grave sins they have committed against this country and humanity as a whole.

  • Horselover Fat, do you really think, then, that the solution is to attempt to disenfranchise people? Don’t you think these are concerns that could have been brought up 10 months ago when the measure was passed by the state party?

    Could you also provide, please, some evidence that the Culinary Workers’ Union membership by and large doesn’t support Obama?

  • If it takes disfranchising voters, cavorting with known Republicans, and Rovian tactics, then there really is no such thing as winning and we’ve already lost. Not to mention it would make Nader right when he said there’s no difference between the two dominant parties.

    I’m especially incensed about the lawsuit in Nevada. An Obama supporter is encouraging people to be a ‘Democrat for a Day’ at the same time a suit plays out with the intent to deny people access to the caucus.

    This suit cannot be attributed to the Clinton campaign, but given it’s timing, it was done on her behalf by her supporters. So which do we choose? An inspired supporter encouraging people to come and vote Democratic (which isn’t even necessarily for Obama), or an inspired supporter trying to suppress the vote in the Las Vegas strip?

  • Horselover Fat,

    Explain the timing and also how this is any different from problems with caucusing in general? I’m sure a lot of people caucused in Iowa with their co-workers, spouses, union members, union bosses, regular bosses, or local bullies. Any number of people who could put pressure on them.

    I never thought I’d see the day that progressives would be arguing in favor of disfranchising voters.

  • I know this goes against everything I’m supposed to think about Hillary, but I actually like the woman. As a person. As in, if she’s ever looking to get back at Bill, I’m available. But this last week it went from “competition is healthy” to ugly for me, and it seems like the two campaigns realized it to, so seeing them call a truce restored my pride in party.

    This primary is driving me insane, though. Someone said before that a primary is where you vote your conscience, and I agree. It’s just that my conscience doesn’t know which way to go. I switch from Hillary to Obama and back again over the course of a given day, even occasionally eying Edwards.

    I keep waiting for Obama to show me more than the inspiring speech to clinch the deal.

  • There is so much at stake in this election, that if we aren’t willing to do whatever we have to to win,short of breaking the law – we may once again walk away with our honor and dignity intact, but we won’t be walking into the White House.

    Good grief, people. Have we really hit IOKIYAD??? I am really sickened by the fact that the general consensus seems to be that the answer to Rove-ian slimeball tactics is to try and out-Rove them. Yuck. There is a difference between fighting back and sliming back, and it is one we had better damned well figure out before the election. People who think Obama doesn’t offer change and then say that dirty tricks are the best ones have clearly missed his fundamental point. You don’t win over a populace by being an even bigger a$$hole than the next guy. You win it over by pointing out what an a$$hole he is.

    That is the reason people rally to Obama. They watch him calmly point out that we can get much farther by working together than by being a bunch of jerks and think about how sick they are ovf the dirty tactics that Washington insiders (including especially the Clintonistas) are willing to deploy. Even if you win an election that way, you can’t govern because the other side is full of people you tried to d!ck over.

  • What some appear to be saying here is that if you have to resort to cynicism and underhanded tactics to win, so be it. After all, that’s the way it’s been done in the past, and that’s the way the other side plays the game, and lord knows, we have to win to save democracy. Is this what we teach our kids, or are we ourselves cynically pitching fair play like some Santa Claus story that they’ll figure out on their own when they’re ready?

    I still believe that a majority of Americans value fair play and, if elections still matter at all, the voters can be used as referees to penalize those who play unfairly. Most often, they’re unaware of what’s really going on. So tell them. Show them. Point out what to watch for so that they start seeing for themselves who’s conning them and who’s playing it straight. And in the process, win their votes.

  • So let me get this straight:

    Clinton sticks her foot in her mouth.

    The American people take notice of that said foot implanted in her mouth.

    Clinton, speaking muffled through said foot in mouth, blames Obama for putting her foot in her mouth.

    Yup, That about sums it up.
    Everything else is just BUNK.

  • I know this goes against everything I’m supposed to think about Hillary, but I actually like the woman. As a person.

    Me, too. And in some ways it is easier because of all the vitriol. You hear this portrait of who and what she is, and then you meet her in person and of course she isn’t like that at all.

    It is no coincidence that after she started way behind in Iowa, once she actually started meeting with people in moderate sized groups, her poll numbers went way up. She is nothing like the caricature.

  • Fargus, the culinarymembers were never asked. You don’t know what they want any more than I do. All we know is what the leadership decided it wanted, subsequent to being lobbied hard by Obama.

    Aren’t you bothered a little bit by people having their votes delivered for them by their union, without them being in a position to do anything about it?

    What the timing of the suit shows is that the teacher’s union didn’t particularly mind that until their ox was one (but not the only one) getting gored.

  • zeitgest, to your post about what the Clintons are doing = campaigning, the problem is that it’s a form of campaigning likely to alienate huge portions of the Democratic base. In fact, the best word I can use to describe the tactic they are (theoretically) pursuing would be “polarizing”. It was noted on another blog that perhaps what’s going on here is that, when the campaign is based on idealogical grounds, Clinton actually loses, so she needs it be discussed on racial and gendered fault lines, in which case she wins.

    But if, in order to win, she has to polarize (i.e. divide) her own base, then she’s probably not fit to be the leader of said base. And if she’s forced to follow that strategy in order to win the general, then there is little-to-zero chance of cobbling together the working majority or electoral mandate needed to govern effectively.

    It’s got to be about more than simply winning. If winning means destroying or at least severely damaging your party, and putting yourself in a situation where you can’t actually do anything of import with the “power” you’ve gained, then what was the point, anyway?

    That’s the problem with blind party loyalty. It has to be about more than just putting a Dem in office, because not all roads to electoral victory necessarily lead to progressive policy enactment.

    In different times, maybe that’s the only option open to Dems, but right now we have a unique opportunity. Much like Reagan in the 80’s faced a decimated Dem party and united his base and divided the opposing based by offering an uplifting vision of America, so too can the Democrats peel off moderate Repubs who are dissatisfied with their political leaders, right-leaning Indies who are totally disgusted by the GOP, moderate “Values” voters who care as much about the poor and the environment as they do about abortion and gay marriage…we can boost turn-out in voters 30-and-under who’ve spent the vast majority of their of-voting-age life under corrupt GOP rule and are itching to punish Republicans as a result…

    We have a chance, in short, to unite our base, destroy the GOP with Indies, and divide their base, relegating them to the party of also-rans, and put ourselves in a position of enormous strength.

    But that’s not possible by practicing the scorched-earth politics you’re praising. That’s the politics that consolidates the other side’s base. And as we can see right now, with more and more African-Americans saying they won’t vote for Clinton no-matter-what (at least judging by blog comments), that it can also serve to divide our own base.

    This is the circular firing squad the Dems are so famous for. I see little reason to validate those self-destructive tactics.

  • What on earth is wrong with suing to block a move by the SEIU leadership to *stack* the caucuses with Obama votes?

    Running caucuses **at work**, i.e. a the job you could lose or have damaged in front of the stewards who could do that for you = intimidation to participate rather than abstain

    Running caucauses at work in front of stewards = intimidation to vote the SEIU party line rather than an individual’s conscience

    How is JOB INTIMIDATION not a form of disenfranchisement?? even if, or especially if it comes in the form of (forced) votes for a (forced) candidate?

    Sounds pretty damned clear to me. Advantage, Obama, unless the lawsuit can gain some traction. That kind of voter manipulation is Grade A Obama maneuver: he is a nasty attorney with an angelic face. Very un-Jesus, as it turns out.

  • You know CB I wonder that you never, ever seem to quote the Clinton’s position that the Obama campaign is playing games by misconstuing whatever they can about Hillary’s statements, even when the majority of your posters think that’s exactly what Obama did his “unfortunate and ill-advised” crack against the JFK/MLK/LBJ commen

    You, CalD, and Anne =/= the “majority” of CB’s posters.

    And I imagine CB doesn’t post that explanation because he finds it as laughably implausible as the rest of us do, as implausible as Johnson’s “I was talking about his community organizing!” excuse, about which, according to Bill, we have to take him at his word.

    Please.

  • doubtful,

    the difference is this involves people caucusing in the presence of their coworkers and union stewards. Normally when people caucus it is at their neighborhood precinct, the other people present are their neighbors.

    Las Vegas does not have the reputation of being a place you want to get crosswise to the unions.

  • socratic_me – we have the issues and we have the people, if polls that show the majority of the country thinks we’re heading in the wrong direction are to be believed.

    That’s the ground we stand on and for – and we have to be prepared to both counter the negative that will be coming from the other side, and go hard on offense to hammer home the message – which I think is a positive one in terms of what we hope to accomplish, but is going to have to be negative to expose what the Republican rule has done to this country. We aren’t going to win this by making it a political “Up With People” campaign. We have to be as complete a team as we have ever been – a team that can score points and keep the other side out of the end zone, and make people want to root for us. Play hard, but play fair. Expose the lies. Make them acknowledge the truth.

    I’m not talking about slimy personal attacks. I’m not talking about monkeying with elections. I’m not talking about forming Democratic versions of the Swift Boat Veterans. But if you think the GOP is not going to come at us with the worst they can come up with, you’re dreaming – maybe you could tell us how would you plan to counter that?

  • beep52:

    I still believe that a majority of Americans value fair play and, if elections still matter at all, the voters can be used as referees to penalize those who play unfairly.

    Not to be totally cynical, but the last time I saw the slightest glimpse of evidence to support this was 1976. Mondale was crucified by the general public for telling the truth — not because “they’re unaware of what’s really going on” but because they were very aware of what Mondale said: the only way out of government deficits was to raise their taxes.

    Dukakis stayed well above the fray; he believed the American people didn’t like that stuff, and wanted to hear about issues. When Atwater’s team went negative, Duke responded with his resume of success, and a flurry of technocratic white papers.

    Neither Gore nor Kerry fought back as hard as they might have, in large part because they gave too much credit to the American people – they really didn’t believe the self-evidently spurious attacks would get traction. They were both, sadly, very wrong.

    The only Dem win since 1976 was Clinton. Unlike all the others, Carville’s strategy was “hit them back twice as hard in the same news cycle.”

    That worked.

    You can try to point out to people that the other side is being dirty, but there is no evidence that has worked. Most people don’t seem to listen or care.

  • What on earth is wrong with suing to block a move by the SEIU leadership to *stack* the caucuses with Obama votes?

    Running caucuses **at work**, i.e. a the job you could lose or have damaged in front of the stewards who could do that for you = intimidation to participate rather than abstain

    Running caucauses at work in front of stewards = intimidation to vote the SEIU party line rather than an individual’s conscience

    How is JOB INTIMIDATION not a form of disenfranchisement?? even if, or especially if it comes in the form of (forced) votes for a (forced) candidate?

    Sounds pretty damned clear to me. Advantage, Obama, unless the lawsuit can gain some traction. That kind of voter manipulation is Grade A Obama maneuver: he is a nasty attorney with an angelic face. Very un-Jesus, as it turns out.

    Ummm…huh? The SEIU endorsed Obama a few days ago. The rules were put in place over 6 months ago. Nobody complained then b/c nobody knew who the SEIU would endorse (hell, they probably didn’t know either; the outcomes of Iowa and NH obv. played a role).

    But the fact that allowing at large caucuses increases the number of people available to vote certainly cannot be construed as “disenfranchisement”, no matter how many logical pretzels you fold your into. One could argue that Nevada needed more of those, but please, you’re really upset about union tactics? You do realize that the people complaining about this are also a union, that also endorsed a candidate, and will also use union solidarity in an effort to deliver that candidate votes?

    How about a little intellectual honesty here.

  • You can try to point out to people that the other side is being dirty, but there is no evidence that has worked. Most people don’t seem to listen or care.

    You have to take each election in context. Not only are voters more likely now than ever to see dirty political attacks for what they are (one could argue we’re already seeing evidence of this in the Dem primary), but we’re also, as I noted above, at a point in time when plenty of right-leaning Indies and moderate GOPers and values voters are ready to be swayed to join the other side. And not based on policy proposals either (do you really think they vote GOP b/c they like abolishing the estate tax?).

    But that means trying to persuade them with a positive message of why you should be President. So far, Clinton has not shown much talent for offering that message. Instead, she’s tried to leverage establishment advantages (super delegates, endorsement-generated infrastructure) and name recognition, with a strategy of deliberately blurring the policy differences between herself and her rivals, and a slew of negative/polarizing insinuations to destroy anyone else’s message and win by default. That’s her campaign strategy. And it’s likely to be the one she pursues in the general, since any Dem will start out with an advantage over any GOPer.

    It’s also a strategy likely to squander away the incredible opportunity we have right now.

  • the difference is this involves people caucusing in the presence of their coworkers and union stewards. Normally when people caucus it is at their neighborhood precinct, the other people present are their neighbors. -Horselover Fat

    Do you think that in Iowa, as I already pointed out, and other caucusing states that doesn’t happen? In every caucus you run the risk of vote intimidation. It was discussed at length on several posts on this blog prior to the Iowa caucuses. Intimidation isn’t isolated to the Las Vegas strip.

    You want to solve it, an 11th hour move to disfranchise voters is not the way. Lobbying for primaries, preferably an extended mail-in primary with delayed results and a nation wide schedule of town halls, is the way.

    The lawsuit is nothing more than a blatant attempt to prevent supporters of a specific candidate from voting disguised as freedom from intimidation.

    The turnover rate for most foodservice jobs is so high, especially in competitive areas that the union leaders probably don’t even know most of their members to begin with, and a likely record breaking turnout would make it even harder to figure out who is with who ultimately.

    Again, I find it hard to stomach that any progressive would make any attempt to stop someone from voting. These rules were established months ago. You still haven’t answered the question of timing, which speaks to the heart of this lawsuit’s nefarious intentions.

    And if it’s so dangerous to “get crosswise to the unions” in Las Vegas, then what fate awaits those who brought the lawsuit? Hopefully Gil Grissom will get to the bottom of it on the next CSI, because that’s just pure fiction.

  • People who want deeper background on this Las Vegas stuff can find it discussed in depth at TalkLeft blog, also at MyDD if you dig deeply.

  • Something else to ponder…

    This from David Corn a while back:
    http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/davidcorn/2007/12/hillary-on-obama-fear-and-hatr.html

    When talking to Clintonites in recent days, I’ve noticed that they’ve come to despise Obama. I suppose that may be natural in the final weeks of a competitive campaign when much is at stake. But these people don’t need any prompting in private conversations to decry Obama as a dishonest poser. They’re not spinning for strategic purposes. They truly believe it. And other Democrats in Washington report encountering the same when speaking with Clinton campaign people. “They really, really hate Obama,” one Democratic operative unaffiliated with any campaign, tells me. “They can’t stand him. They talk about him as if he’s worse than Bush.” What do they hate about him? After all, there aren’t a lot of deep policy differences between the two, and he hasn’t gone for the jugular during the campaign. “It’s his presumptuousness,” this operative says. “That he thinks he can deny her the nomination. Who is he to try to do that?” You mean, he’s, uh, uppity? “Yes.” A senior House Democratic aide notes, “The Clinton people are going nuts in how much they hate him. But the problem is their narrative has gone beyond the plausible.”

  • And in some ways it is easier because of all the vitriol. You hear this portrait of who and what she is, and then you meet her in person and of course she isn’t like that at all. -z

    Wait, she didn’t spit on you and eat your soul? Well, of course the devil would be beguiling! 🙂

    Not to be totally cynical, but the last time I saw the slightest glimpse of evidence to support this was 1976. -z

    I would say we made a lot of progress in 2006 with some very positive campaigns. Even won a squeaker in Virgina by staying above the fray when a candidate said some stupid, negative things. In fact, we’d probably be worrying about that particular candidate now had he won.

    People who want deeper background on this Las Vegas stuff can find it discussed in depth at TalkLeft blog, also at MyDD if you dig deeply. -Horselover Fat

    It wouldn’t matter where it’s discussed, it’s still disgusting. I’m appalled at the disfranchisers, arguing that intimidation is limited to workplace only as if none of these people live in the same precint as co-workers or union leaders.

    Answer this honestly, if the union was really that interested in manipulating the outcome, would it matter where the caucusing was or would they have representatives everywhere no matter what?

    If you’re really opposed to voter manipulation and intimidation during the caucuses, then it strikes me that you’d have to be opposed to caucuses altogether since intimidation is not limited to unions.

    Instead of steering people to other blogs, why have you not answered the timing issue? The timing of the suit strips away any of the sheep’s clothing of good intentions.

    I read your last comment as capitulation: people who agree with disfranchisement can find supporters here and here because I can’t honestly answer the questions posed. Whatever, keep your ‘win at any costs’ attitude and I’ll keep my ideals.

  • People who are really interested can find .pdf of the actual complaint and in depth discussion of the issues at the sites I suggested. I don’t have time to reinvent the wheel.

    Also, it is not capitulation to observe or conclude that someone whose mind is made up does not care to be bothered by such inconvenient stuff as facts, I don’t have time to just yell at the wall.

  • And not based on policy proposals either (do you really think they vote GOP b/c they like abolishing the estate tax?).

    I disagree. People hate the Death Tax! Its a double-tax, you know. And it could allow The Government to take what you want to pass on to your loved ones!

    Now, you and I and everyone here know those are all total and complete lies. But the American people aren’t smart enough to figure it out. People here say “tell ’em!” But trust me, Democratic candidates have told them, repeatedly. They believe what they want, they believe a fairy tale if that fairy tale would be in their own interest — even if it enables real world policies that are against their self interest.

  • Ugh. Are we really feeling so beaten-down and helpless that we embrace dishonesty and amorality as our champions? Not this American. I look at Hillary’s campaign style and I have to wonder, if she is willing to lie to me, distort the issues, and destroy decent people in order to get herself elected, why would I expect anything different from her as a president?

    No thanks. If this is seriously going to be part of our selection process, we need to ask ourselves very frankly, what DOES our country stand for? Who are we?

  • Yeah.. not wanting to caucus in front of your shop steward, and your massed union brother/sisters, in your workplace, in Las Vegas, thats just crazy thinking. Lazy, evil, sinister plot, thats what it is.

    Vegas unions dont strongarm. Nobody in Vegas does. Whoever would think such a thing?

    Somebody hasnt worked long in corporate America, let alone in LAS VEGAS. Keerist.

    As for the timing, puhleeze. Read into that whatever you want — intent most sinister and evil.. a dropped ball.. both sides’ supporters awaiting the SEIU endorsement to see which of them would file it.

    I know which scenario one I’d choose. Intellectual honesty is as intellectual honesty does.

    What would Occam do?

  • Just because the timing was opportunistic and looks bad, doesn’t negate the argument being made. Unfair is unfair, regardless when you take action.

    I hear tell this is largely a union vs union squabble, there are other unions besides the teachers at odds with the culinary workers. But hey, what do I know, I don’t live in NV.

  • Using CB’s list from yesterday, I don’t see a lot of race in Hillary’s comments:

    1. Bill Clinton referred to Obama’s movement as a “fairy tale” — Not in the least, Bill was taking about Iraq. No racism here.

    2. Hillary downplayed the significance of Martin Luther King – Not to me. What she said sounded exactly like what Jesse Jackson Jr. said on a C-Span history panel about whether Lincoln freed the slaves or whether the credit should go to others, named and unamed, who created a movement. Jesse Jackson Jr said that the movement moved Lincoln but without the power in the White House it would not have happened, or at least not until later. That’s exactly what Hillary said about LBJ/MLK. No racism.

    3. Andrew Cuomo’s “shuck and jive” comments — hard to say whether the choice of words was intentional, and even if so, it wasn’t much of a comment. Unknown, depends on intent of the speaker, and even then, not much there.

    4. Bob Kerry’s “muslim” and “madrassa” comments – Despicable – Hillary deserves to be blamed — but Kerry’s comments are not about being black. Not racist – unless a religion can be characterized as race – not black, anyway.

    5. Billy Shaheen’s drug dealer comments – I, a white person, didn’t see anything black about it — the same could/have should have been said about George Bush. Not that it’s not despicable, it’s just not about race.

    6. Bob Johnson’s drug dealer comments — the worst of the entire list. I might question whether Mr. Johnson was off the reservation except that Bill Clinton evidently made excuses for him. Racist and really bad.

    So I see one clearly racist comment among the whole bunch.

    For whatever it’s worth

  • Just because the timing was opportunistic and looks bad, doesn’t negate the argument being made. Unfair is unfair, regardless when you take action. -Horeslover Fat

    The timing is critically important to the intentions. And I say making it harder for people to caucus is unfair. Intimidation is a concern at every caucus; why after this was settled months ago is it an issue now?

    Also, it is not capitulation to observe or conclude that someone whose mind is made up does not care to be bothered by such inconvenient stuff as facts, I don’t have time to just yell at the wall.

    I haven’t seen any facts, just contrary opinions and allusions to the mob, and your opinion is that disfranchisement in this situation is okay. It would take a very compelling argument for me to ever agree to place limitations on voters, especially at this late stage. Not once was my concern of timing addressed other than to dismiss it. If their goal was so high and mighty then it would’ve been made an issue months ago.

    Tell me how, if this lawsuit succeeds it won’t create massive amounts of confusion when caucus day arrives?

    I hear tell this is largely a union vs union squabble… -Horeslover Fat

    And the truth will out. It’s a power struggle between two unions who have endorsed different candidates and this should result in a last minute change in voting procedure and voter suppression, why?

    As I’ve stated before, I’m not a fan of caucusing in general; I think intimidation is a factor, but not any more in Nevada then it is anywhere else. Personally I think spousal intimidation is a far greater factor then union intimidation.

    What would Occam do? -Zach

    To begin with, your comment is simply fear mongering that equates unions with organized crime. Occam’s razor doesn’t always apply to politics, but frankly if you want to apply it in this case, the simple solution is that someone is doing this for political gain.

    The candy coating that is voter intimidation is little more than a thin shell around voter suppression.

    Somebody hasnt worked long in corporate America, let alone in LAS VEGAS. Keerist.

    As for the timing, puhleeze. -Zach

    Yes, obviously everyone against this suit and for maximizing voter turnout is less experienced and worldly than you.

    Somebody hasn’t followed politics very long in America.

    Timing is everything.

    Honestly ask yourself if it weren’t like minded supporters, or, even better, if it were a Republican bringing this suit, would your reaction still be the same? This is one of those situations where it’s okay if your a my Democrat and you can rationalize it to yourself all you want, but in the end it is bunk. What next? A good reason to only have one polling booth in each inner city precinct if it benefits your candidate?

    I really wanted to turn over a nicer, less cynical leaf today, but it makes me fume when people are so obsessed with a candidate that they would rationalize away an attempt at voter suppression. That’s what this all comes down to. It’s partisan hackery that just happens to be contained within the party. The people who brought this lawsuit make me sick to my stomach to call myself a Democrat.

  • Actually, I don’t think reasonable people can disagree on whether the Clinton campaign engaged in any race baiting. They most clearly did not. This whole issue was a scurrilous attempt by the press and rival campaigns to take innocuous remarks and blow them completely out of proportion. Towards the end, people were somehow arguing that “fairy tale” and “spade work” are somehow racist code words.

    Don’t think for a moment that the Obama campaign had nothing to do with pushing this. Politico reported that a senior Obama aide was trying to drum up the MLK quote the day of the New Hampshire primary. Jesse Jackson Jr all but accused Clinton of not caring about the Katrina victimes while talking about demographics in South Carolina. Campaign spokesperson Candice Tolliver wondered if there was a “pattern” in public remarks. The campaign’s South Carolina press secretary assembled and distributed a long memo with many of the alleged incidents. All of this happened well before Obama himself called Clinton’s remarks “unfortunate” and said they “offended” some people, and then said the idea that his campaign was pushing this is “ludicrous”.

    Yes, we had a truce yesterday. But the truce didn’t say that “reasonable people disagree” on what was meant. Obama said that Clinton didn’t mean the MLK remarks in a racial way. Saying that someone is race-baiting is an extremely serious charge that if true, should disqualify that person from elective politics. Saying that reasonable people disagree works for other things, but not for something as serious as this.

  • “I think intimidation is a factor, but not any more in Nevada then it is anywhere else.”

    Do you have actual experience with Nevada to back that up? Because my experiences suggest otherwise. This town was run by the mob for a long time, and it still isn’t exactly pure as the driven snow.

  • This town was run by the mob for a long time, and it still isn’t exactly pure as the driven snow. -Horeslover Fat

    Most major cities can make the same claim to storied histories, and the mob no longer runs Las Vegas thanks to Anthony Spilotro. Plus, the mob has never had as much power as the corporations that rule Las Vegas now.

    http://www.onlinenevada.org/las_vegas_mob

    And why in the world would we allow the mob to dictate to us where and we we could vote, anyway?

    My major problems with caucusing include intimidation and accessibility. I don’t think you can reduce intimidation by changing locations in the instance. If an entity that is powerful enough wants to manipulate the outcome, they will find a way where ever the event is held.

    In this case, accessibility is addressed and improved. I think if this lawsuit goes through accessibility will suffer but intimidation will still be a factor. I’d rather take one step in the right direction than two steps back.

    Saturday is a great day to caucus if you’re a teacher. Not so much if you’re a service worker. It’s a union power struggle and the voters are just a pawn.

  • doubtful:
    I really wanted to turn over a nicer, less cynical leaf today, but it makes me fume when people are so obsessed with a candidate that they would rationalize away an attempt at voter suppression. That’s what this all comes down to. It’s partisan hackery that just happens to be contained within the party. The people who brought this lawsuit make me sick to my stomach to call myself a Democrat.

    I left the Dims when they voted to censure Moveone.org for their clever play on words ad in the NYT. Imagine that! An org that was totally founded on giving Bill the benefit of the doubt and moving on. And THAT’S the way you replay a kindness? You might think of leaving too. It really is a great feeling waking up unyoked to a political machine. Clear conscience. You will sleep better.

    Of course you are spot on right here too:

    Honestly ask yourself if it weren’t like minded supporters, or, even better, if it were a Republican bringing this suit, would your reaction still be the same?

    That really nails it.
    If you have time read one of my earlier comments today:
    http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/14238.html#comment-367595

  • ROTFetc, @60;

    Thankfully, VA doesn’t request you to register as anything in particular, just for the voting purposes (to work as an officer of election however, I had to state my preferences/leanings). It would have been extremely difficult for me, had I had to make a choice; I consider myself a “moderate independent” but most of my friends, family and acquaintances disagree — they say I’m a flaming liberal (what’s wrong with “liberal”, BTW? Doesn’t every US PO, bank and courthouse — not to mention the Congress — have “give me liberty or give me death” carved on its lintel?)

  • Stephanie Miller of Air America had this to say about the “coincidence” theory:

    I paraphrase:

    “We’re expected to believe that she’s unable to control her operatives, but she’s capable of running our country?”

    Ouch.

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