The gloves come off early?

It’s inevitable that ’08 Dems are going to go after one another. It’s too big a field, too competitive a race, with too many serious challengers, to avoid some serious intra-party squabbles. No one wants to see the eventual nominee come out of the process bruised and beaten by his or her own side, but it’s largely unavoidable (and, fortunately for Dems, equally likely on the other side of the aisle).

With this in mind, it’s not entirely surprising that John Edwards, for example, would start showing his aggressive side.

In 2004, John Edwards rarely had an unkind word to say about his rivals for the presidency. But it isn’t 2004 any more.

Should Hillary Clinton apologize for backing the Iraq war? “That is a moral decision she has to make,” Edwards told me. […]

That nonbinding resolution against the Iraq troop surge favored by Barack Obama? “Useless,” said Edwards. “Exactly like a child standing in the corner and stomping his feet.”

As intra-party squabbling goes, this is not only mild, it’s substantive. Edwards avoided this kind of talk in 2004, but there’s nothing particularly offensive about him taking a few pointed shots at his top rivals. There’s nothing cheap, personal, or below the belt.

I’m afraid I can’t say the same about Sen. Joe Biden.

Senator Joseph Biden doesn’t think highly of the Iraq policies of some of the other Democrats who are running for President.

To hear him tell it, Hillary Clinton’s position is calibrated, confusing and “a very bad idea.” John Edwards doesn’t know what he’s talking about and is pushing a recipe for Armageddon in the Middle East. Barack Obama is offering charming but insubstantial fluff. And all of them are playing politics.

“Let me put it this way,” Mr. Biden said. “You didn’t hear any one of them get in this debate at all until they announced for President.”

To be sure, Biden has some ground to make up. He’s trailing in the polls, his fundraising is tepid, and no one seems to consider him a serious top-tier contender. If Biden simply went through the motions, talking about his beliefs and ideas, it’s likely he’d never close the gap. It’s inevitable that he’ll throw some elbows.

But as Greg Sargent noted, in his interview with the Observer, Biden unloaded on the top Dem candidates.

On Hillary’s Iraq plan: “From the part of Hillary’s proposal, the part that really baffles me is, ‘We’re going to teach the Iraqis a lesson.’ We’re not going to equip them? O.K. Cap our troops and withdraw support from the Iraqis? That’s a real good idea.” […] The result of Mrs. Clinton’s position on Iraq, Mr. Biden says, would be “nothing but disaster.”

On Clinton’s electability: “Everyone in the world knows her,” he said. “Her husband has used every single legitimate tool in his behalf to lock people in, shut people down. Legitimate. And she can’t break out of 30 percent for a choice for Democrats? Where do you want to be? Do you want to be in a place where 100 percent of the Democrats know you? They’ve looked at you for the last three years. And four out of 10 is the max you can get?”

On Edwards: “I don’t think John Edwards knows what the heck he is talking about,” Mr. Biden said, when asked about Mr. Edwards’ advocacy of the immediate withdrawal of about 40,000 American troops from Iraq. […] “John Edwards wants you and all the Democrats to think, ‘I want us out of there,’ but when you come back and you say, ‘O.K., John'” — here, the word “John” became an accusatory, mocking refrain — “‘what about the chaos that will ensue? Do we have any interest, John, left in the region?’ Well, John will have to answer yes or no.”

On Obama: “I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,” he said. “I mean, that’s a storybook, man.” But — and the “but” was clearly inevitable — he doubts whether American voters are going to elect “a one-term, a guy who has served for four years in the Senate,” and added: “I don’t recall hearing a word from Barack about a plan or a tactic.”

First, Biden’s comments on Obama came before the Illinois senator presented his own plan for withdrawal.

Second, did Biden just describe Obama as the first “clean” mainstream African American? “Clean“? I can only hope Biden meant that as “scandal-free.”

In the big picture, I’m very skeptical about this approach. Chances are, Biden will likely hurt himself more than his rivals with these kinds of comments.

That said, if this is what Biden is saying in January, I shudder to think where he’ll go in October.

Who’s Biden?

I agree with Edwards about Hillary. Hillary has a lot to answer for on Iraq.

  • I guess Biden doesn’t want to be secretary of state as badly as I thought he did.

    It’s a shame. He’s very smart, and given how much we (I) complain about totally packaged pols like Hillary never saying anything, maybe he deserves some credit for speaking his piece. But the guy just doesn’t freakin’ know when to stop.

  • The garbage that Biden spews right now harms the top Democratic candidates who I hope squish him like a little pesky bug.

  • A bull in the china shop. Biden’s ill-tempered, ranting side is fun on the Sunday talkies, but it’s not the type of demeanor people want to see in the nation’s leader. This will hurt Biden’s image more than those he criticized.

  • Why is Biden doing shooting himself in the foot? Two of the people are his current colleagues and on is a former colleague – stupid, stupid, stupid. I didn’t like him the last time he ran for president and I am not sure he has improved with age.

  • I think Biden just left the race. He could try to clarify his comments on Obama, but to what end? It was either David Duke bigoted, or George Bush stupid. I’m not seeing any middle ground for him to escape to.

    In a way, that’s always been my problem with Biden. Which Biden will show up? The guy who can shred a rival with a few sentences, or the rambling ego-maniac who basks in the sound of his own voice? Biden is not a stupid person, by any measure. I’ve never understood how he can so frequently speak like one.

    Clearly, the wrong Biden showed up on that day. Stick a fork in him.

  • Well, both Biden and Edwards are right when it comes to Triangulation Tilly, er, I mean Hillary.

    Hopefully, Edwards will also go after the rest of the Corporate Clintonista Scum supporting her, all the folks who think NAFTA and WTO and PNTR and CAFTA and any other way to turn them into Rich Democracts at the expense of the rest of us. Just reading David Sirota about how all the Clintonista “realists” are trying to convince the newly-elected Democrats that economic plans that put Americans first are “misguided.”

    We definitely don’t need more Clinton-era “screw the average American” international economic policies. And Hillary needs to find an idea she actually believes in that wasn’t approved by 50 focus groups and 40 Democratic “professional pimps” first. I mean, does she actually believe in ANYTHING?????

  • Second, did Biden just describe Obama as the first “clean” mainstream African American? “Clean“? I can only hope Biden meant that as “scandal-free.”

    “Clean” could easily be just an unfortunate, reflexive choice of words. Nice and bright and clean — short, vapid, positive adjectives. An instance of bad speaking, but neither a demonstration of ill will nor of true stupidity. And the same for “first” — Obama is obviously not the very first such person, but I think he is still pretty exceptional.

    However, that’s just playing Devil’s Advocate. “Articulate” looks to me like Biden really, really wants to shoot himself in the foot, so who am I to argue.

  • maybe he should plaigerize more often. he’d probably say fewer pointlessly offensive things. he should stay in the Senate where gadflys and attack dogs have their role. he has never been, and never will be, a presidential temperment. i think he and former interim UN ambassador Bolton are secretly twins separated at birth.

  • I normally agree with Tom, but I gotta step up for Bubba here. While undeniably there is more a President could have done or could do for the middle class, no Presidential administration since Johnson — that is, none in nearly 40 years — has been as beneficial to the middle class, workers, and working poor. There was more job creation, less budgetary attacking of social safety net programs, more success in welfare-to-work transitions, more real wage growth for wage earners, and less wealth concentration among the top 1% than before or since, and the general economy was much stronger than under Nixon or Carter, which helped lift all boats. I don’t agree with everything Clinton did, but I’m guessing a huge majority of “average Americans” would take him back this minute in a heartbeat given the option.

  • Biden was hoping to steamroller the opposition early, but only wound up throwing himself under his own bus. He’ll probably be very popular at FOX News, though, they’ll just turn him on and not even have to ask any questions.

  • If a GOP member used the word “clean” when describing an African-American, you all would be calling for his job!

  • Second, did Biden just describe Obama as the first “clean” mainstream African American? “Clean“? I can only hope Biden meant that as “scandal-free.”
    I took him to mean “clean-cut,” a reference to the Boy Scout vibe that Obama certainly does give off. Must we start scrutinizing every single word spoken about Obama looking for a whiff of racism? That’s going to get old really, really fast.

  • Joe Biden isn’t saying anything that the average person isn’t saying outside the Beltway – but that doesn’t mean he gains anything by doing so; in fact, it probably just opens the door for others to come back at him with equal punch.

    What irritates me is the I was already not happy about having 2 years of non-stop campaigning; if it’s going to be 2 years of non-stop campaigning that is at the level of “nyah-nyah-nyah” God help us all.

    They are all trying to elbow their way to the top of the field, but I’m not entirely sure that the last person standing will be the best person for the job. Hillary may have the fundraising edge, but so what? Republicans raised tons of money, and look what we ended up with.

    Look, the Dems can come up with all the plans they want, but those plans are simply going to be points of conversation during the campaign – none of them are going to be implemented before the election, none of them may even be relevant to conditions in Iraq at the time of the election, and if a Democrat wins in 2008, you can be sure that the winner’s plan is going to be subject to tinkering and tweaking and adjusting to the point where it may not resemble anything that candidate proposed.

    Reasonable plans have been out there for some time – and Dems should be reminding people about them at every opportunity. We’ve fallen into the trap of thinking that every time the GOP says we haven’t offered an alternative, we have to offer yet another, slightly different plan – and I don’t think we do. That there are so many plans now is working to the adminstration’s advantage – as they have a plan and they are already implementing it.

  • Biden…Bidet…put them both in a burlap sack, shake them up for a while, dump them out, and they’re freaking identical—–toilet-paper substitutes.

    And why is it that Dems always have such problems with guys named Joe?

  • Was just reminded – via TPM – that Senator Biden recently told an audience in South Carolina that he wishes Delaware had been part of the Confederacy. Making him just another Confederate Traitor Wannabee. And that attitude of Southern Bigot is also reinforced with his comment about Indian-Americans and 7-11s: “I mean, you can’t even go to a 7-11 or a Dunkin’ Donuts if you don’t have an Indian accent.”

    So his “mistaken comment” about Barack Obama isn’t such a mistake as it is a revelatory comment.

    This guy is the George Felix Allen of the Democratic Party. Can you say “Macaca” Senator Biden??? I knew you could.

  • Who’s Biden?

    I hear he’s from Delaware. What I can’t figure out is, What’s a Delaware??

  • Biden has an edge in foreign policy … of interest largly to those inside the Beltway and, as with Condi’s expertise, of little practical use anymore. I can’t imagine Joe Sixpack getting exited about, or even warming up to, Joe Biden’s bipartisan efforts to work with Republicans in this area (not offending Lugar shouldn’t be among our party’s major goals).

    Though his apparent frankness and ability to turn a fresh phrase are enough to catch the attention of the Sunday morning TeeVee corporate gasbag hosts, his stand on issues seems as triangulated and non-heartfelt as Hillary’s and as contrived and artificial as his hair plugs.

    Then there’s that vote October 11, 2002 vote on whether “to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq” — Biden (D-DE), Yea

    The rest of those votes are interesting with hindsight (which only Edwards has repudiated with a solid and perhaps risky U-Turn).

    NAY — Bingaman (D-NM), Boxer (D-CA), Byrd (D-WV), Conrad (D-ND), Corzine (D-NJ), Dayton (D-MN), Durbin (D-IL), Feingold (D-WI), Graham (D-FL), Inouye (D-HI), Kennedy (D-MA), Leahy (D-VT), Levin (D-MI), Mikulski (D-MD), Murray (D-WA), Reed (D-RI), Sarbanes (D-MD), Stabenow (D-MI), Wellstone (D-MN), Wyden (D-OR) – Jeffords (I-VT)

    YEA — Baucus (D-MT), Bayh (D-IN), Biden (D-DE), Breaux (D-LA), Cantwell (D-WA), Carnahan (D-MO), Carper (D-DE), Cleland (D-GA), Clinton (D-NY), Daschle (D-SD), Dodd (D-CT), Dorgan (D-ND), Edwards (D-NC), Feinstein (D-CA), Harkin (D-IA), Hollings (D-SC), Johnson (D-SD), Kerry (D-MA), Kohl (D-WI), Landrieu (D-LA), Lieberman (D-CT), Lincoln (D-AR), Miller (D-GA), Nelson (D-FL), Nelson (D-NE), Reid (D-NV), Rockefeller (D-WV), Schumer (D-NY), Torricelli (D-NJ)

  • I like Joe B, but he needs to chill. That non-sense doesn’t work with D’s, we don’t like blood & guts. Plus it’s like 100 times funner to pick on the gop or what used to be the GOP.

    Come on Joe, you have way more class then that.

  • I don’t hold the 2002 Iraqi authorization vote against anybody. The post-9/11 period was a time of crisis in America – no matter how partisans felt, the right thing to do was acknowledge and rally behind a leader. Has what the GOP done to American politics since 1993 been so harsh that we’ve all forgotten that we want our representatives to be “statesmen” as much as anything else? It’s plain that the Congressional types put their faith in Bush, and that Bush absolutely lied to them, and to us. At the time, the things that have shown Bush to be an absolute liar hadn’t come out yet, and the right thing to do was give him the benefit of the doubt, for the good of the country.

    Of course, since it’s all hit the fan, no one supportative of Bush deserves any slack whatsoever, but considering the time, and the lies, I really don’t think people should be judged harshly by their “Yes” vote in Oct 2002.

  • Ed, what I find interesting about that roll call list in retrospect is how about the only that explains it is a realpolitik eye towards future ambitions.

    Other than Feingold (and perhaps Wellstone) no one in the “NEA” list had previously or has since made any noise about running for Pres or otherwise vying to be on the executive ticket.

    On the YEA side, however, are Bayh, Biden, Clinton, Daschle, Dodd, Edwards, Kerry, Lieberman, Schumer, Reid (considering Majority Leader an upward ambition) and even surprises like way-left Harkin — and what they all have in common (and the only way to really get Harkin to fit) is publicly pondered past, present or future Presidential ambitions.

  • er, NAY. apparently had the education lobby on the brain. or just not enough education on my brain.

  • ethel-to-tilly: i disagree that 9/11 required that we “rally behind a leader”. i was opposed to every one of the bullshit propositions that bush put forward. i always maintained that there was absolutely no need to give up our liberties in this situation. and i like to think that i was right.

  • Are you sure you’re not giving Edwards a free pass on this? I mean, it’s fine to say a nonbinding resolution won’t work, but to compare it to a child stomping its feet in a corner — don’t you think that’s an attempt to connect certain imagery to an opponent?

    Personally, I think it’s more insidious than anything Biden said.

  • Must we start scrutinizing every single word spoken about Obama looking for a whiff of racism? James Dillon

    No, but we must not shy away from calling it out when we see it. I don’t think anyone is being oversensitive here. Biden just insulted all past African-American Presidential candidates and used several wink wink, nudge nudge racist code words for to insult a specific candidate.

    What the hell is it with disappointing Democrats in the Northeast? First we do our damnedest to get rid of the cancer Lieberman, and now we have to listen to this guys bullshit? I won’t accept it from a Democrat just as I wouldn’t from any other party.

    Let’s find a challenger for Biden. Hell, get Lamont. I liked that guy.

    And Edwards doesn’t get a pass either. Again, I have to stress that he was part of the team that lost to Bush last time. That has to count for something. If he’s so good, why couldn’t he win when it counted so much? Once he can explain that to me, he can start insulting other candidates.

  • ethel-to-tilly: i disagree that 9/11 required that we “rally behind a leader”. i was opposed to every one of the bullshit propositions that bush put forward. i always maintained that there was absolutely no need to give up our liberties in this situation. and i like to think that i was right.

    If you’re talking in terms of things like the Patriot Act, where they pulled down off the shelf 1000 pages of legislation that re-wrote the Constitution and told them they needed to vote on it sight-unseen in 10 minutes, then I totally agree. And I would apply it on a case-by-case situation depending on the subject and circumstances. But in foreign policy, in such a situation, unless one has actual direct evidence that clearly gave the lie to what Bush was saying, I don’t see the reason for being partisan just for the sake of being partisan. Nowadays, I would, but back then, the evidence of Bush’s lack of veracity still wasn’t evident. These people all represent many many other people who trusted and believed the President. SHort of actually proving him wrong, to me the honorable thing to do was let him lead. Regardless, because the times were so *weird*, and Bush certainly did lie, and then abused what authority they gave him, I just wouldn’t make it a litmus test.

  • No, but we must not shy away from calling it out when we see it. I don’t think anyone is being oversensitive here. Biden just insulted all past African-American Presidential candidates and used several wink wink, nudge nudge racist code words for to insult a specific candidate.
    “Oversensitive” is far too kind a term for what you and some other commenters are being. “‘Articulate’ is a rascist [sic] code word too”? How the hell do you know, Dale? This is utter nonsense– Biden made a relatively temperate criticism of a potential rival that had nothing whatsoever to do with Obama’s race, yet sure enough, someone quickly comes up with a completely baseless interpretation of those words so as to charge him with the cardinal sin of racism. If there’s any racism to be found in this incident, it’s the unfortunate propensity of certain commenters (and, sorry to say, bloggers) who are absolutely determined to find racist undertones in any innocuous statement about a black candidate and are willing to contort both language and logic to create a basis for feigned moral indignation. One wonders what isn’t a “racist code word” in some eyes.

    Personally, I think Obama is a charming, intelligent guy who will be a strong contender for my vote in ’08. I guess that makes me a closet Klansman.

  • I’m sorry, James but I still disagree and being verbally hostile to me and Dale isn’t going to change my mind. Biden is a racist, and his past comment on wanting Delaware to be included in the Confederacy.

    http://parablemania.ektopos.com/archives/2006/05/articulate.html

    Something most white people would never pick up on without help is that it’s sometimes insulting to compliment black people. In particular, it’s insulting to say something nice about someone who is black that you wouldn’t say about someone who is white.

    But, to help you’re argument out, here’s someone who agrees with your point of view:

    http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/005497.php

  • doubtful,

    Joe Biden may be the most racist man who’s ever lived. I very much doubt it, but it’s really irrelevant to the issue here. The point is, that CB and others felt justified in implying, on the basis of his quotation about Obama alone, that he had made some improper racist remark. I stand by my position that that inference is entirely unwarranted. Had CB, or anyone else, written a post arguing along the lines, “Joe Biden has made a lot of racially suspect remarks in the past, here are some of them… and for that reason, I think he shouldn’t be given the benefit of the doubt as to his comment about Obama today,” that would have been altogether different. But to suggest that his use of the word “clean” (or, apparently, “articulate”) to descibe Obama is itself sufficient to warrant an inference of racism is simply absurd.

  • I’m having really bad luck with HTML tags today. Sorry for failing to close the italics.

  • I don’t hold the 2002 Iraqi authorization vote against anybody. The post-9/11 period was a time of crisis in America – no matter how partisans felt, the right thing to do was acknowledge and rally behind a leader.

    Oh, please! The October 2002 vote was a blatant pressure tactic to force Dems to vote their power away to Bush or risk being tarred as pro-terrorist less than a month before the election. Those who voted nay had the guts to stand up to that bully tactic, a classic Rovian maneuver, though few (or none) had the sense to expose the tactic for what it was. But there was plenty of information out there by then to know better, to know that Bush was lying, and that he wasn’t to be trusted.

    Leader my ass. Non-expletives fail me…

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