The inability to define ‘victory’

If the typical question for a war supporter is, “How much longer do we stick with an ineffective policy in Iraq?” the typical response is, “Until we achieve victory.”

War supporters labeled themselves the “Victory Caucus” a while back. When John McCain talks about his support for Bush’s Iraq policy, he insists we need to let U.S. troops “win.” When the president himself talked about the war this week, he emphasized the need to “achieve victory.”

Slate’s Fred Kaplan tried to get a handle on what these conservatives mean when they use the word “victory.” Given that the administration and its allies have changed the definition a few times over the last five or so years, it’s a little tricky, but Kaplan found that by Bush’s own standards, “victory” is nowhere in sight.

[B]y the Bush administration’s own standards of success, laid out in the president’s speech and the NSC’s strategy review, we are no closer to victory now than we were when those documents were drafted. Iraq is not unified, it is only superficially democratic, it cannot govern itself, its security forces cannot provide for the safety of its citizens, and it remains more of a haven for terrorists than an ally in the war against them.

Gen. Petraeus has said many times that there is no strictly military victory to be had in Iraq. The goal of the surge — and, at this point, of the U.S. military presence generally — is to provide enough security, especially in Baghdad, to let the Iraqi factions settle their sectarian disputes and form a unified government. If this political goal isn’t achieved, then the surge will have been for naught. And lately, Petraeus has expressed disappointment that the Iraqis have made so little progress on that path.

Just as importantly, the president has defined “victory” in such a way as to make it practically impossible.

Noting that the surge is ending, the militias in the Sunni Awakening are angry and threatening a strike, and Sadr-announced ceasefire is unraveling, Kaplan explained that even by measures articulated by Bush, “[V]ictory is not in sight, nor is there much evidence that the road we are treading will lead us toward that destiny.”

And yet our president still seems to have little comprehension of what the war that he has spawned is all about.

A White House “fact sheet” titled “Five Years Later: New Strategy Improving Security in Iraq,” posted on the occasion of the invasion’s fifth anniversary, states: “Defeating the enemy in Iraq will make it less likely we will face this enemy here at home. The terrorists who murder the innocent in the streets of Baghdad also want to murder the innocent in the streets of American cities.”

And so, once again, President Bush tries to link the war in Iraq to the attacks of Sept. 11. Once again, he pretends (or does he somehow believe?) that al-Qaida is “the enemy in Iraq.” Would that things there were so clear-cut. One big difficulty about fighting in Iraq is that there is no single enemy. The overarching problems are disorder, sectarian strife, a weak central authority, and the absence of legitimate politics in the provinces. AQI is a menacing force, but it is also a small one. If it were destroyed tomorrow, Iraq would be only slightly less messy. (In one way, it might be more messy, at least in the short-run, as the Sunni insurgents who are now our allies would be expected to resume their fight against us after our common enemy is vanquished.)

Just as Bush mistakenly treats Iraq’s myriad insurgencies as if they were one — thus making them appear (and perhaps making their warriors feel) mightier than they really are — so he also elevates the stakes of the war, and the requirements of victory, above and beyond any prospect that’s feasible.

Is it me, or are the arguments in support of staying the course getting weaker as time goes on? At this point, the best the president can do is argue that al Qaeda will seize Iraq’s oil supply and use the money to buy WMD — a claim so specious that the White House couldn’t defend it.

So, we’re left with vacuous palaver about “victory,” which sounds great, just so long as no one asks what that means.

Victory for Bush will be achieved by leaving office and blaming the end game on his successor(s). Democrats aren’t the only one looking at the calendar and saying “only 8 more months!”

  • what .. you don’t believe in der “final victory” .. ??

    better watch out TIA is watching …

  • Gen. Petraeus has said many times that there is no strictly military victory to be had in Iraq.

    There is no strictly military victory anywhere. A military needs a government and an ideology to be loyal to. A nation can build an army. Not vise versa.

  • Freedom is tyranny, Ignorance is strength…

    America has always been at war with MiddleEastia!
    Victory is defeat!

    This ship of state hit an iceberg in 2000, and we’ve been treading water ever since.
    The President broke it, and now we the People have to clean it up, and the next President, and the Next President…and the next….

    GWB = worst President evar

  • Don B hit it in comment #1. Soon we will need an answer for the 20%ers when they attempt to demonize the adults who will get us out of this mess.
    Here’s my first answer:
    ” If you don’t know WTF you are talking about, just STFU.”
    Of course using the words (rather than the abbreviations) will provide more effect.

  • “Defeating the enemy in Iraq will make it less likely we will face this enemy here at home. The terrorists who murder the innocent in the streets of Baghdad also want to murder the innocent in the streets of American cities.”

    Clearly, the new strategy is to hope bin Laden laughs himself to death upon reading this.

  • What’s that saying… when the only tool you have is a hammer, the world looks like a nail?

    Well, when you’re ignorant, the world is incomprehensible. When you’re overcome with hate, the world is full of enemies. When you’re overcome with fear, the world is a threat. When the only tool you have is force, you attack and bully people. And when the only thing that keeps you going in this scary, scary world is belief, you apply those beliefs against all facts, evidence, and arguments to the contrary.

    Tax cuts are good when the economy is good and when it’s bad, because they believe tax cuts are good. Iraq is worthwhile and “winnable” because they believe it’s worthwhile and “winnable.”

    Such people aren’t qualified to run a bait shop.

  • Victory means ending our involvement and getting our troops safely home. Victory means halting the rape and pillaging of other countries by greedy factions of Americans under the guise of promoting democracy. Victory means allowing Iraqis to come to their own agreements out of the necessity to live. Victory means restoring freedom and civil rights in America and once again becoming an example of democracy and a country other countries want to emulate. Physician heal thyself.

  • If they’re having trouble describing defeats as victory, they should really consider hiring Mark Penn.

  • I have a post on the new “surge”, Mahdi Army violence in Iraq at http://swimmingfreestyle.typepad.com

    Excerpt:
    ” After six months of a self imposed cease fire by the Mahdi Army, all hell is breaking loose in Baghdad and Basra as the Mahdi Army is battling U.S. and Iraqi Army forces and the relative stability brought about by the “surge” of U.S. forces is now threatened.

    Today, White House Press Secretary Dana Perino delivered what may be the most stunning counter perspective in ages. This, in fact, may well rank in the Hall of Fame for counterintuitive logic. Ms. Perino asserts the new violence in Iraq is not a setback but, in fact, really a positive sign.”

  • I’m pretty sure that “victory” involves spending so much money that the US government has to destroy the safety net that conservatives know is the bedrock of the Democratic party. They have deliberately dug a hole 3 trillion dollars deep, transferring much of it to their friends, but more importantly they have tried to blow the budget so bad that social security and medicare will have to be curtailed.

    And if that sounds crazy, ask yourself why they left the ammo dumps unguarded for months. Why? Because they wanted this to become a quagmire.

    Mission Accomplished.

  • BushSpeak: “We leave Iraq when we win. It is impossible to win, therefore it is impossible to leave Iraq. Questions?”

  • Have the Iraqi’s signed over their oil yet? Mission not accomplished.

    And RacerX, you are right on the money…it’s all about money. Taking ours and any they can get from anywhere else, lining their pockets, and telling the rest of us to eat cake.

  • As much as I believe it was a mistake to invade Iraq, and as much as I want us to get out of Iraq, even I have to admit that we cannot just up and leave as rapidly as humanly possible. Unfortunately, any rational exit strategy will involve months or years to execute so as to cause the least amount of chaos possible. Even a perfectly executed two-year exit strategy probably has a high risk of escalating violence in Iraq. Liberals need to acknowledge this, probably even more so than conservatives. We need to recognize that any exit is likely to involve some measure of increased violence.

    I am deeply torn by this. We didn’t create this pile of crap, but unfortunately we will have to clean it up without gloves.

  • Actually, I-T, we can just “up and leave.” we can leave Rice and her billion-dollar-boondoggle fraud Baghdad embassy behind. we can leave Cheney and his rape-pillage-burn Halliburton/KBR buddies behind. We can even leave Bush and his rampant-theft-of-oil economic policies behind. Every last drop of blame can be placed squarely in the laps of the Bu$hylvanians and their profiteering alliances.

    The American People have every right to disown these heinous criminals and their underlings. It is the only way that the future generations of this political filth calling itself the GOP will ever understand that their actions will always bear consequences. Make these outrageous excuses for human beings responsible for their actions, and them make them financially responsible for their own protection. They will die cold, empty, and penniless deaths on account of having to self-fund the expenses of their own security and having to live 24/7/365 in hardened concrete bunkers with no windows….

  • Independent Thinker, I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, I want out of there. But there is a human cost and we broke their country in a big way.

    Too bad we can’t force all of these warmongering neocons to pony up the dough to fix it.

    I am not a very hateful person but I hate all of them with the depths of my soul. They are evil people with no compassion or conscience.

    They should hang from the rafters after they are found guilty in a world court – with reparations coming out of their own pockets. I don’t know if it is ever going to happen but one can hope and dream.

  • Independent Thinker seems to be advocating a “No Exit” strategy. Or am I missing something? I mean, since IT suggests that even a “perfectly executed” two year exit strategy is problematical in terms of potential violence, what time frame does IT recommend. And, what degree of perfection are we looking at? To quote a former candidate: “Otherwise, this whole business is just academic, right?”

  • A White House “fact sheet” titled “Five Years Later: New Strategy Improving Security in Iraq,” posted on the occasion of the invasion’s fifth anniversary, states: “Defeating the enemy in Iraq will make it less likely we will face this enemy here at home.” (Slate’s Fred Kaplan)

    I am really getting tired of this bullshit line. And for the life of me I can’t understand why some Democrat can’t counter it.

    As long as we’re over there, they don’t have to come here. All we’re doing is saving them the fucking plane fare!

    “We have incurred a moral responsibility in Iraq. It would be an unconscionable act of betrayal, a stain on our character as a great nation, if we were to walk away from the Iraqi people,” (McCain) said (today).

    I live less than 80 miles from Gettysburg. So whenever I hear this canard, I can’t help but think of Pickett’s Charge.

    For those who aren’t history buffs, Pickett’s Charge happened on the third day of the Battle of Gettysburg. On the first day, the Union’s right flank turned back a Confederate attack. On the second day, the Union’s left flank held against repeated attacks — even though the Union troops ran out of ammunition at the end. Confederate army commander Gen. Robert E. Lee was determined to achieve a victory, so that the thousands of soldiers who had died in previous two days would not have died in vain. Lee ordered Gen. James Longstreet to attack the middle of the Union line (Gen. George Pickett’s division lead the charge, but Longstreet was in command). Lee’s generals advised him that this was a bad idea because Pickett would have to charge across three-quarters of a mile of open ground, up hill, and against a fortified Union position that was backed up by artillery. Lee, however, believed that the Confederate attack would succeed provided the soldiers were courageous enough and they believed in The Cause enough.

    Does this sound familiar?

    The attack lasted about an hour and was completely repulsed by the Union. Of the 12,500 Confederate soldiers involved, more than half were killed or wounded. Fortunately for the Confederate army, Lee didn’t order a second charge. (It was of course, unfortunate for the Union, which might have ended the war much sooner if he had.)

    But apparently, by the logic of Bush-Cheney-McCain, Lee betrayed the Confederate casualties by not ordering a second charge.

  • “Victory” or “winning” are very useful to Bush, Cheney, McCain, and anyone else who supports the war because without specific parameters to accompany them they are vacuous, one-size-fits-all terms that mean anything and nothing at the same time.

    But people like the sound of the word, so they use it.

  • I’m not sure if anyone is looking at this thread any more, but I just got home and wanted to respond to a few comments to my earlier post.

    Steve (#16), while I understand your point about sticking it to the people who caused this mess in Iraq, but the truth is that if we were to do a rapid withdrawl in, say, 4 to 6 monsths, the all hell would break loose over there. The people who would suffer the most are the Iraqis, not the Haliburtons.

    Cogitaters (#18), I DO advocate a drawdown of troops. I just believe that any plan that does so too quickly will leave a power vacuum that very likely would plunge the country into years of chaotic infighting. Heck, even a longer 2 year plan might end up with that result. But at least a longer drawdown giveS the Iraqi government some chance to bring their own forces up to speed and perhaps limit the scope of the violence.

    Let me be absolutely positively clear, I do not advocate a long term occupation. I am simply trying to open a dialogue about the realities in Iraq. Anyone who thinks we can just up and leave and not expect to leave behind utter chaos, is deluded or ignorant…and I do not believe that to be the case with anyone here.

    I feel terrible about this whole mess. Our government is responsible for the injury, death or displacement of MILLIONS of Iraqis. The ONLY reason I do not advocate immediate and highly rapid withdrawl is out of pity for the Iraqis.

    I hope this clarifies my position. I am ROYALLY PISSED OFF at the Bush administration for initiating the horribly, pointless fiasco, but I also feel a deep sense of responsibility tot he Iraqi people to at least try to minimize the inevitible chaos that will come with our departure.

  • The man’s right.

    After we cut n’ run from “Nam, are you forgetting the blood that ran in our streets from the seemingly endless ‘Cong attacks that followed our boys home?

    If the dang Democrats had just let us win… who knows how many lives would have been saved!

    Conservative lurkers, please spread this argument far and wide, I’ll start the popcorn.

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