The ‘ingredients of a typical GOP campaign’

In an interesting piece for The American Prospect, Paul Waldman argues that Barack Obama’s presidential campaign prepared for a lot of possibilities, but “there’s one thing it doesn’t seem they prepared for: Their main opponent, Hillary Clinton, is running like a Republican. And it appears to be working.”

[H]er campaign has begun to appear more and more as though it’s being run by Karl Rove or Lee Atwater. Pick your tired metaphor — take-no-prisoners, brass knuckles, no-holds-barred, playing for keeps — however you describe it, the Clinton campaign is not only not going easy on Obama, they’re doing so in awfully familiar ways. So many of the ingredients of a typical GOP campaign are there, in addition to fear. We have the efforts to make it harder for the opponent’s voters to get to the polls (the Nevada lawsuit seeking to shut down at-large caucus sites in Las Vegas, to which the Clinton campaign gave its tacit support). We have, depending on how you interpret the events of the last couple of weeks, the exploitation of racial divisions and suspicions (including multiple Clinton surrogates criticizing Obama for his admitted teenage drug use). And most of all, we have an utterly shameless dishonesty.

On some of these points, Clinton hasn’t yet reached GOP levels of underhandedness. But on the simple question of honestly characterizing their opponent, the Clintons are giving any Republican campaign in memory a run for its money.

From there, Waldman highlights a litany of instances that will no doubt be familiar to those who’ve been watching the campaign: misquoting Obama on Reagan; misquoting Obama on the “party of ideas,” casting doubt on Obama’s opposition to a war he’s always opposed; the race-based dispute; the Norquist-esque mailer in New Hampshire and Nevada, etc.

Waldman notes that Dems have always rallied to the Clintons’ defense because “no matter how much it seemed that Newt Gingrich or Ken Starr was going to defeat them, they never gave up and never stopped fighting. They weren’t afraid to get their hands dirty, and they did what it took to win.” But Dems’ comfort level is entirely different when the target shifts from Gingrich/Starr to a leading Democratic presidential candidate.

I think there’s certainly some merit to this, but I can’t help but wonder if the Clinton campaign’s do-what-it-takes style might resonate with Dems more than Waldman expects.

Waldman’s piece concluded:

The question this raises is how we really feel about ethically questionable campaign tactics. The fact is that we’re very quick to forgive a politician we support for hitting below the belt, if the belt in question is around the waist of another politician we dislike. We might ask ourselves, however, whether our readiness to do so is different in kind from the Republican willingness to tolerate torture, so long as it’s done to “bad guys” (OK, so many of them won’t just “tolerate” it, they’ll applaud it enthusiastically). Try to imagine that it’s nine months from now, Mitt Romney is the Republican nominee, and flyers begin appearing in mailboxes charging that as an elder of the Mormon church, Romney participated in bizarre, cult-like rituals that may or may not have involved slaughtering puppies. Would you say that the attack was beyond the pale, but crack a secret smile when Romney was forced to deny that he was a puppy-killer?

Allen Raymond, the Republican operative who went to jail for his role in the New Hampshire phone-jamming scandal, writes in his new tell-all, “When it came to playing in the gutter, we were the professionals — the Dems weren’t even junior varsity.” But one can’t deny that there are quite a few Democrats who know their way around the gutter, too.

In principle, I suspect most Dems would find this persuasive. We don’t want our campaigns to succeed on cheap shots, misrepresentations, slash-and-burn tactics, and loose ethics.

At least, we say we don’t. But this brings me back to a point I raised last week. I doubt the Clinton campaign would raise the point intentionally, but isn’t it possible that Clinton aides would use their rough-and-tumble style as a selling point? In other words, might not the Clinton campaign subtly argue, “If you think we’re taking some cheap shots with Obama, just wait until we’re taking on the Republicans in the fall”?

I was doing a radio show the other day with my good friend Bill Simmon and we talked a little bit about this on the air. I can’t remember his exact words, so this is a paraphrase, but when I mentioned some of the Clintons’ no-holds-barred tactics, he said, “Isn’t that what we want now?”

Bill’s not a Clinton supporter, but I have a hunch his sentiment isn’t unusual in Democratic circles. A lot of the party has seen Rove-style swiftboating since the 2000 campaign, and they’ve seen it work. Dems have tried decency, and have insisted that we stay out of the gutter, and voters didn’t exactly reward the party’s honesty and class.

In this sense, the Clinton campaign may be sending a signal — by using ethically-dubious, morally-flexible tactics, they’re highlighting what they’re willing to do to win. For every Dem out there who finds this offensive, I can’t help but wonder if there’s another Dem who likes the idea of a candidate who plays by Republican rules.

Count me out.

  • While I deplore the tactic, I’m also extremely tired of the current Democratic syndrome “nice guys finish last” – I want someone who can win and accomplish what it takes to drag this country back on track.

  • I think this works for the less educated electorate that spends a great deal less time paying attention to the race, but I know that I myself will not vote for a “Karl Rove” even if there is a “(D)” next to his or her name. As far as I am concerned, I will be the change I want to see in the world.

    Karl Rove and Cheney’s tactics are the very thing that got me so passionate about politics to begin with. To see the same underhanded techniques now used by Democrats against a truly phenomenol Democratic politician is disappointing to say the least.

  • The Clintons are doing to Barack Obama what the Republicans did to Al Gore in 2000.

    Did Al Gore say he invented the internet, discovered Love Canal and the rest? No. It was just a pack of lies and distortions. The Republicans touted them and the lazy media repeated them. It was a lesson and a tactic the Clintons learned all too well …

    http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/10/gore200710

    http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/5920188/the_press_vs_al_gore

    In the end all those years of abuse by Republicans taught the Clintons just one thing: how to be abusers themselves.

  • Put me down as one Dem who finds this increasingly apparent moral sell-out by the Clinton campaign to be totally offensive and will be the primary reason I end up voting for Obama when the time comes. Our candidates have never had the guts to fight fire with fire against Republicans, which I support, but we’re willing to adopt the tactics of the lying scum on the other side against one of our own?

    That is unacceptable. Period. You don’t prove you’re better than the other side by acting like them in your own right. Listen up, Bill and Hillary. You may think that “doing anything it takes to win” makes you look strong. It does not. It only reveals your essential weakness. You can do better than that.

  • I can’t speak for Dems, but as an independent voter, I find Clinton’s tactics repugnant. A few months ago, I probably would have voted for her in the general election; now, there’s no way in hell that she would get my vote.

    And it’s doubly disturbing to see these tactics used against someone like Obama, who could potentially do for the Democratic party what Reagan did for the Republican party (and no, I’m not endorsing any of Reagan’s policies with that statement).

  • Let me get this arguement straight: It’s Rove’s and/or the GOP’s fault the Clinton’s are treating Obama like this???? And people in the Dem party are viewing this as an attribute???? Wow.

  • America be Aware.

    Hillary Clinton walks like a Bush republican, talks like a Bush Republican, lies like a Bush Republican, wants war like a Bush Republican; is deceitful like a Bush Republican; had advisers from the Bush Campaign (Karl Rove included ?). Shuns African -Americans like a Bush Republican. and probably eats many dinners wiith Lieberman than Democrats care to count. Why vote for a machine that is so dynastic and Bush redundant.

    We need Change now. Show the politicians who runs this country!! Do not vote for HILLARY unless you want the same as the last 8 years.

  • “The Clintons are doing to Barack Obama what the Republicans did to Al Gore in 2000.”

    It wasn’t the Republicans who did Gore in with such things. It was the “liberal media” and the MoDos/Broders/Punkinheads of the world.

  • Dems can be so gullible. We want a Republican Democrat? What makes you think that, Waldman? Come on, Obama forced everyone to talk about change. This country hates Republicans right now, so Dems are arguing about how to be more like them? Cowards!

    It’s interesting that this is a question simply because Clinton is (barely) the front-runner. Remember when it was going to be a landslide? Obama is winning this fight in a lot of ways, despite (or because) he’s new and speaking in a different tone. Regan didn’t win because his party was dirty, he won because he embraced a public persona of hope and change. At least Obama might turn out to have the substance Regan never did.

    Dems don’t just want Republicans by a different name. We know that. We all feel the hunger for change.

  • No. This is a stupid, stupid idea. If we let them drag us down to our level, they’ll beat us with experience. “Junior varsity” is the perfect description.

    And even if we could win that way, I’d want no part in it. Fuck the Clintons, seriously.

  • The important thing to note here is that there’s a difference between fighting hard and fighting dirty. Obama made a legitimately grave error — both factually and tactically — when he said that the GOP could claim to have been “the Party of Ideas”. There’s no reason not to take him to the woodshed for enhancing the conservative brand in that manner. That’s fighting hard. Distorting his quote by claiming he said he “liked” their ideas is another matter entirely. That’s a flat-out lie. That’s fighting dirty, and any Democrat who stoops to that level not only hurts their own credibility, but diminishes the claim that our party has to being morally and ethically superior to the GOP Filth Brigade we’ve been fighting all this time.

  • I am disgusted by Hillary and Bill at this point. I’m not pro-obama, and was excited for a Hillary nomination all the way back in 04, but now I see right through her. She giggles like it’s a game, she has no plans, it’s atrocious.

  • ā€œThe hardest thing about any political campaign is how to win without proving that you are unworthy of winning.ā€
    Adlai E. Stevenson quotes (American Politician. Governor of Illinois (1949-53

  • Changing or twisting words does seem to be dirty politics, and something that should not be rewarded. However, up to this point, I fail to see the equivalence of what the Clintons have done to the all out smear campaigns run by Rove and co. Will it get to that level? Maybe. But it is nowhere even close at this point in time. But I will wait to see what Clinton and Obama actually do or don’t do to support Chris Dodd and his filibuster of teleco immunity.

  • In order for these dirty tricks to work, the media has to sit by and leave them unchallenged. If any Dem thinks that will happen in a way that favors them in a general election, they have another think coming. A major part of the Conservative Movement has been to buy all the microphones, to borrow Reagan’s phrase.

  • First, Waldman’s hackery is a Rove-ish hit job in its own right – raising a value neutral question as a pretextual framework to smear Clinton. He grossly overstates the case — life is not quite as clear-cut as he makes it; plenty of perfectly tuned-in and reasonable Dems heard the Reagan and party-of-ideas comments and were rubbed the wrong way. And, like so many Obamaists, he gives Obama a total pass as if The Truth itself is defined by whether the words have passed Obama’s lips.

    Second, it is a spectrum, not the false dichotomy Waldman presents. The choice is not “be Rovian or lose.” There are endless points along a spectrum from Edwards 2004 to the Helms-Gantt pure racebaiting “pink slip” ad.

    That said, count me among those who want a fighter (it is part of why Edwards is my second choice). I wish I had the time to go match up everyone here’s comments from the 2006 cycle when the favored theme was pairing up Republicans and goats. I have a very strong suspicion that, as CB suggests, some heading for the fainting couch now about Clinton’s attacks on Obama were among those offering brilliantly dirty ideas for ads against the Republicans. You deep down know that is how politics is, but somehow you want a one-time exemption for Obama (is it true his birth was announced by the angel Gabriel?)

    Taking the high road – as has often been described here as the Dems tendency to take a knife to a gun fight – has lost us numerous elections, and even today many of you are lamenting how it will lose the FISA bill.

    Call it what perjuoratives you will, but the fact is pretty simple. I could get in the ring with Roy Jones Jr and win if he had to box by the rules and I could leg sweep him, hit him with the folding chair, etc. That is what is happening to the Democrats. We play by the rules, the Republicans hit us with the chair, and the public rewards them with the win.

    Sadly the stakes are enormous: replacing Justice Stevens means the win is locked in for 30 years – pretty well the rest of my life – and womens rights, gay rights, the rights of the accused, workers rights all disappear. How gentlemanly would you be in fighting for your daughters’ access to health care? Would you advocate civility while the police dragged your relative away to an unknown place without telling you what the charge is or allowing you to contact an attorney? Because folks, that really is where we are at. I have trouble believing you’d always be nice about it.

    I want a fighter. No qualms, no second thoughts, the fiercest fighter I can find, on my side fighting like hell to reclaim the ground we’ve lost. Any “repair” or “reconciliation” everyone keeps pining for on here inevitably and inherently begins by conceding we dont get all that ground back – otherwise it will be a non-starter.

    Sorry, that is a concession I’m not ready to make. IBP hasn’t been nice to meatpackers. Bush hasn’t been nice to New Orleans’ 9th Ward. KBR hasn’t been nice to rape victims in its employ. The Supreme Court hasn’t been nice to the shareholders defrauded with the help of accounting firms.

    “Nice” is how one — and sadly, those who Dems allegedly fight for, too — gets walked on. I’m not ready to make nice.

    And while I am firm believer you can’t make change from the outside, you have to get in first, I say this to the “Obama is more electable” crowd: nice doesn’t win elections. The “public” can claim whatever it wants about how it dislikes politics as usual — they reward it election after election after election. Obama doesn’t change the fundamental laws of nature. The Rethugs eat nice guys for dessert. And then appoint really not nice guys to the court.

    Ask Edwards why he totally changed personas between 2004 and 2008.
    He gets it now; too bad its too late.

  • I don’t think they’re playing Republican-ball because they want to seem tough, I think they’re at it because they are scared shitless of their opponent. They are looking at Obama the way Republicans would, saying to themselves “How the F*** do we counter a guy who’s got so much good energy behind him?”

    I don’t think Dems need to stoop to the Republicans’ level in the general, because no matter how far down that path we might go, they’ll be way ahead of us. And even though they (and the media) always accuse us of being just like them we shouldn’t let that be the case. We need to show the moderate voter that “ethics” and “truth” aren’t jokes for us like they are for Republicans. That said, we do need to throw hard punches, and we need to land them. And like Carville says when they’re drowning we need to throw them an anvil.

    Arguable distortions are one thing, and lies are another. I know the difference between the two can be subjective, but the Clintons obviously think they’re clever enough to exceed distortion and get away with it.

    I think they suck and they need to go to hell. Telling Democrats lies about other Democrats, so that they’ll look as “tough” as Republicans? If that’s what they’re up to it’s pretty despicable.

  • Don’t be so sure about leaving out the criminal part.

    Let’s see what happens with these Nevada allegations.

  • If she walks, talks, lies, wants war, and is deceitful like a Bush Republican; it must be a Bush Republican.

    If he preaches, talks about Christianity and the Bible it must be a Hucklebee Republican.

    Vote for either of these Dems may not be a change away from the path of the last 8 years.

  • One of my mine concerns about Obama has been: Can he take a punch? This fracas tends to suggest that he can and that’s a good thing. Let’s face it, whoever the candidate is – this is going to get nasty and this is just a feeble round 1 of a long fight to come.

  • “…when the favored theme was pairing up Republicans and goats.”

    Now it is 2008 and the theme is Bill Belichick and goats.

  • Frankly, it disgusts me that some even talk about having to be like the Republicans in order to beat them. People may be looking for payback, but I am simply looking for good governance. We won’t get back to that state of affairs as long as each side takes a “winner takes all” approach to governing. I’ve reviewed Obama’s record, I’ve listened to him speak and I believe he can deliver on what he promises. And I believe he will be able to publicly call out those who oppose sensible legislation simply because he hasn’t already informed the world he intends to ram his plans through.

    A person with Obama’s speaking abilities, given the “Bully Pulpit” of the presidency, will be able to make the Republicans appear as they truly are: obstructionist, partisan and out of touch if they truly try to impede his agenda. Hell, look at what mush mouth Bush was able to do to the Democrats when it came to the Iraq war.

    While nominating a candidate who promises to kick around the opposition may fire up the base, it looks all too familiar (and just as unappealing) to us independents.

  • zeitgeist @ 21 says “I want a fighter.”

    Me too. And I hope we have one who can beat someone who uses these tactics.

  • I strongly disagree with this idea, as deceit and trickery aren’t a pick and choose kind of thing. Once you go down the path of double-head fakes and believing your own lies, you lose track of where reality is and you find yourself exactly where the Republicans are: Buried in corruption and lies. Oh what a tangled web, and all that.

    Beyond that, I don’t think it’s necessary. The Republicans should not have won in 2000 or 2004 and things are far, far worse for them this time. And negative politics really turn people off. I’m sure it’s how Hillary will play in a general election, but I have no doubts that Obama won’t need to. He doesn’t need to tear down the other guy because he’s offering something new and fresh. And I also think that the attacks from Hillary are much more potent than anything the GOP might lay on him, simply because she’s a well-respected Democrat. But GOP lies are generally ignored by everyone but diehard Republicans who want to believe them. In 2004, the only attack that stuck was the Swiftboat thing, and that was a fumble by Kerry, not an invincible play. Had Kerry done it right, that attack would have hurt Bush more than Kerry.

    Besides, the only real function the smears serve is to make people hate politics more and not vote, which is exactly what Republicans count on, as they know they can count on their base to turn out a low level of support. Their goal is to make undecided and wavering people stay home, so their small base can win the day; a tactic that has barely worked for them in the past. Hillary’s tactics will only make that worse. Obama knows how to throw a quick jab before getting back on-topic, and I have no doubts that people will love this. Again, we won in 2000 and should have defeated a sitting president who was basking in 9/11, war, and fear-mongering in 2004. I see no reason why we need to go ugly to win and I’d strongly prefer that we didn’t.

  • What Toast said in #15.

    there’s a difference between fighting hard and fighting dirty.

    The Clintons don’t seem to know the difference.

  • I’m afraid that I must agree with Zeitgeist in this case. There is simply too much at stake to play nice and risk losing. Politics has always been a vicious game- once we win, the tone can change and perhaps it will . But with the Democratic congress’ rating even lower than Bush’s – it says something. I’m a little tired of being under the bus.

  • Rough and tumble is one thing, dishonesty and voter suppression are others.

    The fact is that we’re very quick to forgive a politician we support for hitting below the belt, if the belt in question is around the waist of another politician we dislike.

    Just like how it’s torture to waterboard an American, but SOP when we use it against a turrist?

    It is hypocrisy, plain and simple, and can only lead to further division.

    Zeitgeist,

    I certainly appreciate the drive for a ‘fighter,’ but I don’t see how Obama’s outreach to non-Democratic voters indicates he won’t fight for what he believes in as President. What in his record shows he will cave to the Republican politicians?

    Obama opposition consistently make this mistake. His message isn’t about the Republican politicians, it is about bringing new people to the Democratic message. If we can make their goals Democratic goals, it won’t matter what the Republican politicians think as the dwindle away in minority.

    I’m certainly not claiming this can or would work, but I’m more drawn to this approach than the cynical ‘let’s take this outside’ approach that many Clinton supporters embrace. That will just ensure more years of a divided country.

    You also mention Edwards as your second choice because he is a fighter, and I’ll grant you that, but the Edwards campaign hasn’t engaged in voter suppression or the outright distortions that we’ve witnessed from the Clinton campaign. He, more than most, has kept to the high road.

    Embracing certain tactics as ‘fighting’ to give one candidate a pass on them doesn’t work for me. If we won’t tolerate it from a Republican, we should certainly not tolerate it from a Democrat.

  • Fear – I admit I am shocked when people say that Clinton is fear-mongering. What happened to the Democratic awareness and anger that Bush’s administration has made us considerably less safe? This is not mongering, it is a relevant issue!

    Blocking voters – this is a major problem to me. I would hope that we would send a signal to Democrats that, of all the techniques to learn from Republicans, this one is absolutely unacceptable.

    Exploitation of racial divisions – political memory is indeed short. In only the second to last debate, Obama acknowledged that his campaign had pushed the race story, based on some pretty mild and obviously non-racial comments from the Clintons. (That other fellow, the founder of BET did make racial comments, but those were not focused on by the Obama campaign or the media, and they happened after the accusations started.) I think it’s wrong to say that reference to his past drug-taking is a racial tactic–even if it may have that association in the minds of some voters, they’d be using it with a white opponent too. Not that I think the Clintons are innocent of basic identity politics, but I think this charge is way over-hyped and sloppily handled in many cases. If it were as true as many people want to believe, it would be as objectionable as the vote repression.

    Dishonesty – I think this is more complicated. This is one area that I don’t like, yet it isn’t so far from what “decent, honest” Democratic politicians already do… and perhaps it does need to become part of the playbook. While Clinton is mischaracterizing Obama’s Reagan remarks, Obama’s campaign had mischaracterized Clinton’s LBJ remarks and used that. Even though Obama more or less apologized, among many voters the damage is already done. Furthermore, I think that there is objectionable content in Obama’s Reagan remarks–only Clinton isn’t focusing on the accurate specifics, she’s kinda ‘rewritten’ his remarks so that they’re easier to attack. That’s not honest, and I think it’s a mistake or at least poorly done, but it’s still a far cry from swiftboating.

    I agree with your friend that Democrats need to learn from the Rove techniques. But if we pick them up, we need to make them our own. That means not doing anything that goes against our bedrock principles, like voter suppression. And that means doing them better–if you’re going to be fierce, be accurate, choose your words more carefully.

  • I want a candidate who will fight for my ideals, but fighting is different from what the Republicans have been doing. Look at that culture of corruption!

    That said, I’m watching the slugfest with some interest because it will offer some indication of how Obama deals with this type of thing (which he will, if he eventually becomes the Dem candidate) and also give us some idea of how voters will respond. I’ll ultimately cast my vote for Obama because I feel he has a better suited message to move towards a new progressive vision rather than “fixing the Republicans’ mess”, but if the Dem candidate ends up being Clinton, I’ll still vote for her in the general election because she would be better than any of the Republican candidates, and I simply have to accept that the average voter may respond to the mud-slinging better than I do.

  • but I am simply looking for good governance

    We’d all like that. But here is the problem.

    Good Governance requires two sides, cooperation between the parties.

    Good Governance would mean a President consults with both parties and Congress and determines judicial nominees that are broadly acceptable. If the Dems control Congress, a Good Governance President would not take undue advantage of that by sending someone who is a 9 on a 10 point scale where 9 is the most liberal to Congress — that would result in a filibuster and a polarizing fight. So someone into Good Governance sends a 6.

    So far so good, right?

    Two problems.

    First, the Republicans in Congress will filibuster and demonize and fight him or her anyway, making the Dems spend lots of time and resources and political capital for the kindness of sending a moderate candidate.

    Second, and much more important, lets say that in an ideal Good Governance World, the Supreme Court would always sit at 5 on our scale of 10.

    The Republicans, who wouldn’t know Good Governance if it came up and smacked them (which it should, repeatedly) have put nothing but 1s on the Court while the Dems couldn’t figure out how to fight hard enough to stop them. So the Court as a whole sits at a 2. You can put 6s on the Court for the next 20 years and still not get to the ideal 5. The only way to restore order in any meaningful timeframe is to shove 8s down their throat. But doing that isn’t Good Governance.

    In short, unilaterally disarming by going to Good Governnance now actually locks in the Rethugs damage for decades. If we go all soft and sweet, they will laugh all the way to their overstuffed banks (and laugh while marching us off to Guantanamo, bankruptcy, unemployment, etc.)

    The only way to ever get to Good Government is to kick their asses first.

    This isn’t just revenge, it logically is just the only way to ever get the system back in balance – and hopefully a good ass kicking would make them think twice about throwing it out of balance again, because all they understand is force.

  • I think the Clintons will claim their tactics are warm-up exercises for the general elections when they get called out on it, but I think they are scared and using Repub-lite tactics as a tester. I hope Obama learns how to deflect it and use it effectively. He must not get pulled into the game, but needs to label it with a short catchy phrase (Americans need repetition) and use it every time it happens. He needs to also play a bit on the offense, but never with lies. There’s enough dirt to work without manufacturing more.

  • “there’s a difference between fighting hard and fighting dirty.”

    And there is a difference between fighting dirty and fighting the way Rove and co. fight as well. The Clintons simply are not anywhere near there yet. If their backs are against the wall will they choose to go Rovian? Maybe. But I agree with zeitgeist that Waldman’s piece is, in and of itself, a bit of Rovian hackishness and should be read as such.

  • …but I can’t help but wonder if the Clinton campaign’s do-what-it-takes style might resonate with Dems more than Waldman expects.

    See post 21 above.
    This is understandable of course.

    Gore and Kerry “erred” by either being “soft” or appearing to be “soft.”
    You can have it either way…
    But “soft” has got to be part of of it.

    The upshot is that a huge part of the Dem. Party is now willing to err in the opposite direction.
    Again that is understandable.
    They’ve had their teeth kicked in.
    I mean really… Bush beat Kerry? WTF?

    Nevertheless the bottom line is just this:

    Nothing good can come from people who are willing to win this way.
    Shit is shit. No matter what party hat it chooses to wear.
    Even worse:
    The Clintons are going to destroy and delay AGAIN the coming Democratic majority.

    They are the worse possible choices the Dems could make at the apparent moment of ascendancy.
    The following really is an inevitable analogy:

    Clintons : Democratic majority :: Foot : gun

    Funny? Tragic?
    How about surreal?

  • bubba, Zeitgeist,

    Hey, I’ve got 20 riding on the Pats, and I’m still rooting for the Giants.

    But then I was born and raised a Colts fan. For me, one Manning is as good as the next when playing Brady’s boys.

  • I have to go with Zeitgeist on this. I think the claims laid on Hillary and Bill are extreme. They have not been Rovian.

    They have been Clintonian. They’ve dug into their opponents record and when they find inconsistencies they cry foul. So they say Obama has flip-flopped on the war. Bo-ho! Either they can make the case or they can’t.

    But the Obama camp has been twisting what the Clinton’s say, then attacking the twisted message rather than the truth. That is a Rovian tactic. They did it with the “Fairy Tale” comment, claiming Bill was attacking Obama’s running as a Black American rather than his inconsistent positions on the war. And Obama’s surrogates used the same tactic on Hillary’s JFK/MLK/LBJ comment, twisting the meaning and attacking not what she said but what they claimed she said.

    It’s one thing to attack a person’s record, no matter how much they’d like it not to exist. It’s another thing to lie about what a person said and then attack the lie as if it were their position.

    So for all you here who complain that Hillary is a Bushite in Democratic clothing I say:
    Hillary is not guilty of what you claim,
    Obama is not innocent of hardball politics,
    and you all REALLY need to grow up, because I know you are just using this issue to attack Clinton and are perfectly happy that your candidate is doing the same or worse.

    Gosh, I miss hanging out here. Off again to protect the country (I hope).

    Bye for now

  • doubtful @ 35 –

    i completely understand your position that Obama has never suggested he would back down, and that taking the argument to the people directly is one way to fight the Rethugs in DC. but that requires a fair amount of faith – it is pretty untested, and forgive my lack of faith in “the people” after 2004.

    my real concern is that i honestly do not see how Obama’s “post-partisan” world gets off the ground unless he is willing to give a certain amount of clean slate, a certain second chance, to the opposition. and any cleaning of the slate, any more chances, is too conciliatory for me. the Republicans need some serious time in the wilderness while we restore fundamental balance. but there is no way to both woodshed the other side and yet start a new, transcendent way that is post-partisan.

    conceptually those just seem incompatible to me. if you disagree, i’d be interested in hearing your harmonization of those things.

    the post-partisan guy can come next. right after we’ve beaten the partisanship out of the SOBs.

  • “I hope Obama learns how to deflect it and use it effectively. He must not get pulled into the game, but needs to label it with a short catchy phrase (Americans need repetition) and use it every time it happens.”

    Exactly. And in some cases he has done this. Nothing the Clintons have said or done is insurmountable and none rise to the level of true Rovian tactics.

  • I don,t care if Hilary has to eat live chickens to win the nomination, whatever it takes to get a Democrat back in the W.H. Obama is a lightweight whiner who will not get us back in the W.H. because America will not put a black man there.

  • Clinton supporters: please familiarize yourselves with the phrase “Pyrrhic Victory.” Matter of fact, tattoo that sumbitch on your foreheads.

    Sadly, Joe Blow (or perhaps more accurately, JANE Blow) out in non-blogosphere-pay-attention-at-only-the-last-minute-Democratic-primary-ville doesn’t really care one whit about why Clinton can lose by winning.

    The more days pass the more I think the Democratic Party may seriously be suicidal.

  • …it is pretty untested, and forgive my lack of faith in ā€œthe peopleā€ after 2004. -zeitgeist

    Granted, I feel the same way about 2004, but (and I don’t think I’m buying into the cult of personality) Obama is just a touch more charming and persuasive than Kerry. As much as I respect Kerry, the man could bore the bark off a tree.

    …my real concern is that i honestly do not see how Obama’s ā€œpost-partisanā€ world gets off the ground unless he is willing to give a certain amount of clean slate… -zeitgeist

    I was hoping, should an Obama administration come to fruition that he take the case to the people, like Bill Clinton did, and the people respond with a healthy dose of ‘vote the bums out.’ I’m kind of hoping that no matter who goes into the White House in January, 2009, that they bring a solid Democratic Congress with them.

  • We tried to change the rules. We didn’t write them, but the high road got punished. But here’s the problem for both Hillary AND Obama, and it’s not what you think.

    1) Time and again we’ve seen that what journalists overlook when done by Republicans finally find they can talk about it when a Democrat gives up decency and tries to play catch up. To attack Republicans singly for a sin they alone commit is biased. To attack a Dem is objective because it allows you to both blast a hated Republican tactic, but by focusing on a Dem, preferably a Clinton. Plus, with Dems in power, you will suddenly see a press willing to speak truth to power and to do all the things we demanded they do. This will supposedly please both sides because we, being open-minded, will embrace a media finally willing to call lies lies, even if it’s against our side, and will please Republicans because they are holding Dems accountable. What you will never see is journalists calling a Republican lie a lie, or holding them accountable.

    You saw this with Hillary’s refusal to turn over records — records she asked to be released, but didn’t have to be released because of an Executive Order signed by Bush to keep documents of Cheney, Rumsefeld and others from his father’s administration under seal. CBS said journalists were “salivating” at what juicy bits the CLINTON files might contain. So, a law we liberals have complained about for years is finally brought out into the open because it can be pinned on a Clinton — who is being more transparent than her predecessor. Yet, no journalist is salivating at what juicy tidbits might be contained in Bush’s records.

    So there you have it: Clinton is transparent and hands over documents, as in Whitewater, which the press will howl about and turn into a scandal when one of the thousands of documents is found and turned over late, but is completely unaware that Bush has made an orde specifically to keep his dirty laundry hidden, and the press will reward him for this secrecy by never, ever mentioning documents they will never get to see.

    2) For Obama, the problem is this — The more Hillary savages him unfairly, and the more it hurts him, unfairly, the more we see how Obama’s hope message will fair in a general election against far more immoral Republicans. Yes, it’s unfair. Yes, it sits badly with us because Obama’s one of our own. But better to find out now if he can parry bullshit.

    Finally, Waldman is completely wrong. We PUNISH our candidates for a fair fight, let alone hitting below the belt. That’s the problem. It’s not our bias that undermines us — it’s our open-mindedness.

    2)

  • For anyone interested, I wrote a post on why I support Obama, and detailed the problem I find with Hillary’s fighting spirit. It’s not necessarily that I think she’ll fight dirty (though I don’t like that either), but rather that I believe that she’s lost sight of the reason for why she’s supposed to fight, and is fighting just to fight. And the problem for us is that there’s a difference between fighting to win something and just fighting to win.

    And that’s what we often saw in the nineties, where the Clintons would “beat” Republicans on issues by adopting a soft version of what the GOP demanded; thus giving America Republican-lite policies on Welfare Reform, taxcuts, and spending increases that were below inflation rates. Sure, we “won,” but we were only winning because we adopted a conservative position in order to steal part of their support. It was almost as if the GOP was just mocking us by demanding too much and then pretending to be upset when they “lost”.

    And that’s the problem with someone who just wants to win. It was like entering negotiations and when your opponent starts off by making a ridiculous demand of twenty million dollars and a pizza, you declare victory by giving them the money and denying them the pizza. Again, there’s a difference between fighting to win something and just fighting to win. I think Hillary has lost sight of that. Sure, she fights, but for what?

    Here’s my post:
    Obama for President

  • Thank you , zeitgeist – I could not have said it better myself.

    On another thread here people are tearing their hair out because they feel like Harry Reid is not fighting for us – and they’re right to feel that way, because he isn’t fighting for us. Think about all the issues where we have been let down by Democrats and maybe you will understand why some of us feel as zeitgeist articulates so well.

    Whether you believe that Clinton is being Rovian or not – and I’m not so sure that she is – ask yourself how the eventual nominee will respond to GOP attacks post-convention, and then ask yourself whether another moral victory will be enough to set the country back on the right course.

    Ask yourself why someone who can blow the roof off in his speeches has to spend so much time explaining what he means when he is commenting or debating – there’s a big gap there that grows wider by the day. In some ways, I understand now why John Kerry is drawn to Obama – he has the same cerebral demeanor and approach – and that is translating for many as ill-prepared for the fight to get to the WH and the subsequent fight to make the kinds of changes he is running on.

    With Obama, I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop – and would prefer that if it’s covered with muck, it drop before we are committed to a nominee. With Clinton and Edwards, I think whatever shoes there are or have been, they have already hit the floor.

  • TPM Muckraker is reporting that Republican hitman and frequent Tucker guest Roger Stone has set up a 527 called “Citizens United Not Timid.” Look at the initials. Does it surprise anyone that CNN focuses on the Obama/Clinton squabble. I hope everyone here goes out and tells their grandmother about it.

  • bubba and doubtful – here is how we take care of two birds with one stone. Make Belichek chair of the DNC (Dean as coach of the Pats is optional).

    i wouldn’t have to worry about the party going soft on the Republicans; i could enjoy watching him run up the score. in the meantime, it ends the Pats run. (not that I really care, as a lifelong Vikes fan, all of my rivalry is aimed at the Cheeseheads).

  • Z–and all the cheating and dirty tricks being brought into the DNC!! Get me my smelling salts!!!

  • If Obama can’t handle Bill & HIllary, do you really think he can deal with Rove & the Swiftboaters? I’m tired of candidates who bring a knife to a gun fight and then complain about the Republican meanies.

  • The only way to ever get to Good Government is to kick their asses first.

    Uhm, how can Hillary do that? Is she going to smear their record or twist their words? What’s the point? The truth is already bad enough. The entire Republican regime is based on empty lies and vicious attacks. I don’t see how giving that back to them will hurt them at all, because there’s nothing to attack. The truth is much more damaging to Republicans than any lie we can invent. We should stick with truth.

    Besides, the Village and the media hate Hillary more than they hate anyone and they will knock her for a loop, just like they did to Bill. Hell, even when he was popular, they got him impeached and almost thrown from office. We can pretend that they’ll do this to any Dem, but I disagree. I think it’s personal. They were pissed that they couldn’t rid their town of the Clinton goons and are praying for a rematch. Perhaps you have some memory of Bill steamrolling over Republicans, but my memory has us as constant underdogs who had to adopt conservative positions, and even still barely won the battles.

    And Hillary is no Bill. There’s a reason why she needs him to come out strong for her, and to be honest, I still prefer listening to him than her. He’s really a very excellent speaker. But I prefer Obama best of all. He reminds me of Bill, but afterwards I don’t get the feeling like I was just fed horseshit. It’s nice. It really is.

  • Give Hillary a break, she I our only chance at beating the rethugs at their own game. Yes Obama talks (plays with words) well the rethug machine will bring up all the talk of drugs, being a muslim and all other sorted references to him being a bad presidential choice. So lets just agree that whoever the democratic nominee is that he/she has our support because with a democratic house and a few more seats in the senate which I think we will achieve this year we can get alot done together.

  • First sighting!
    Fair Dinkum!

    Bumper sticker: Anybody but Hillary.

    On a huge Stupid Urban Vehicle…
    Wow.
    And this far from the general election?
    Remarkable.

  • Make Belichek chair of the DNC (Dean as coach of the Pats is optional). -zeitgeist

    We’d never hear the end of spygate!

  • Danp – that is disgusting.

    What’s the Dem equivalent? Patriots Rising In Constitutional Knowledge?

  • This also needs to be said — Hillary and Obama need to be optimistic and talk of hope, etc. Dems often make the mistake of having our leaders get their hands dirty. That should be left to surrogates completely unaffiliated with the campaign (paradox intentional)

  • ask yourself how the eventual nominee will respond to GOP attacks post-convention, and then ask yourself whether another moral victory will be enough to set the country back on the right course.

    Well, can you tell us which attacks on Kerry knocked him out? Except for the Swiftboat attack in August (which he totally flubbed) and the overall flip-flopper charge, nothing stuck to Kerry. And unlike Obama, he wasn’t a very good campaigner and didn’t inspire anyone. As I said before, the only reason these Clinton attacks are sticking is because Bill and Hillary are popular Democrats and Democrats are their audience. But it really isn’t very difficult to block Republican attacks, and they almost never stick except in the minds of wingnuts.

    Remember, they used the flip-flopper charge on Kerry, Gore, and Clinton; and all three of them were better targets than Obama is. We really need to dispell the myth that the Republicans are awesome at attacking. Their attacks only work if you spend all your time fighting them; which is exactly what Hillary plans to do. I don’t want a fighter; I want a president.

  • It is totally unnecessary to do this in the democratic primaries as we all want the same things basically and justifying it by saying republicans will do it in the general does not hold water. Doing it in the general against republicans isn’t even credible if it is lies and completely dishonest. Especially in this election when no republican will win the WH because it would just be more Bush corruption and disaster.

    Republicans have been so outed for their Rovian gutter tactics that honest people despise them for it rather than hail them for it. It’s like watching a professional boxing match where one fighter suddenly kicks the other in the nuts because he got thumbed in the eye. The call is to defend yourself better not cheat more. We will always have gutter politicians but the more the public sees of it the less they will vote for them except for those who are just like them. I would hope that most politicians would just learn to defend themselves better. It would certainly help if we had an uncompromised media who didn’t trip over themselves to get to the dirt first.

  • Well, Lance and Zeitgeist, this is one time I waded through 50 comments of mostly Hillary-Hate, and found thought-worthy nuggets. Thanks. Anyone who thinks that the Clinton tactics are “Rovian” “lies” and “slime” should take a breath or perhaps go back on the meds. Personally, I would prefer a campaign with a stronger focus on issues (you know, solutions to problems, not nitpicking on the miniscule differences in their poll-driven “positions”), and I did not enjoy the pettiness of the South Carolina debate. However, I have been bothered for weeks by the Obama holier-than-thou slings and digs, and if Hillary and Bill Clinton have finally taught the little hypocrite what a real campaign attack looks like, it probably is a useful lesson. The truth is that Obama has NOT distinguished himself as a more progressive leader, and his “vision” of change has yet to be fleshed out with a proven alternative to politics as usual. I am not the only Democrat who hoped that he would prove to be an effective change agent, and was very willing to be inspired by his message. I still respect people whose choice of Obama is based on a desire to be thrilled, but I just have not found the steak behind the sizzle. And, face it, Obama’s campaign has turned out to be mostly about exploiting the 20 years of Clinton hatred spewed by the right-wing media machine.

    I read very carefully the full text of Obama’s comment about Reagan and the Republican ideas (and the other stuff too, but let’s stay with that one). It is true that he did not say that he supported the ideas. It is also true that, by not saying that he disagreed with Republican ideas, and lauding the fact that they had ideas, ANYONE could get the impression that he was applauding the Reagan “revolution” – even without the specific dig at Clinton. So, to me, the Obama camp’s reaction to the Clintons’ “lies” and “misrepresentations” is niggling over crap. Or what they call “dog whistle” language – remarks made to reach the unspoken prejudices of his committed troops, and grate on the sensibilities of Clinton supporters, but without actually spelling it out for the uncommitted.

    Again, couldn’t the campaign be about something else? But if you kick dust into the Clintons’ eyes, you can expect to find your face in the mud. Learn from that.

  • Doctor Biobrain – the only attack they needed was from the Swift Boaters. That combined with voting hanky-panky that Kerry would not contest, and down the drain it went.

    I will give you this – just like a football game whose outcome is dependent on what happens in the entire 60 minutes, and not just the last 2 minutes, so both Kerry and Gore could have been president if the outcome had not rested with Ohio and Florida.

  • I should make a correction to what I wrote above. I said that nobody listens to the GOP attacks, but of course, that’s not true. The media listens, and is all too prone to repeat them endlessly. But as I’ve said before, even their influence is quite limited. As we all know, most people don’t follow the news; particularly not political news. And that includes voters. I know many people who consider themselves to be political savvy, but are completely oblvious to many of the stories that are lighting up the blogosphere (including the FISA immunity thing). And that’s the thing, most political attacks we’re defending against never filter through to the general population, and while they can’t be ignored, we don’t need to spend nearly as much time fighting them as we imagine. As I said, the main problem with Republican attacks is if we waste too much time fighting them, which is what I think we’ll get with Hillary, because she likes fighting.

    Secondly, a point I’d like to make is that Democrats cannot fight like Republicans because the media will not allow it. We’ve seen this a thousand times. Kerry tells a complex fact and Bush tells an outright lie; but the media will hound Kerry for not being “completely truthful,” while ignoring the Bush lie. That’s the real problem; not Republican attacks, but media bias. And nothing can change that dynamic.

    It’s the same as in professional wrestling: The bad guys are expected to cheat constantly and the good guys will be punished for minor infractions. It’s stupid, but it’s the way it is. In the primary, Obama is characterized as the good guy and Hillary gets to play the heavy. Thus, she’s allowed to hit harder than he is. But in the general election, Hillary will be back to playing the good guy and will be fact-checked on even the most basic facts. The problem wasn’t that Kerry or Gore don’t fight back. It’s that the media won’t allow it. I see nothing that can change that here. And so this eliminates Hillary’s advantage, while playing into Obama’s advantages. But again, we should have won in 2000 and 2004, and this election is even better for us.

  • No, this is not what we want. This is the type of behavior which I found so harmful to democracy and which presents one of my main motivations for voting Democratic. If the Clintons are going to campaign like this I can only assume they will also govern like this, and I want no part of it.

    Maybe Hillary will still be able to win with a 50% plus one strategy, but she has lost respect of too many people who she will need if she really wants to accomplish anything more than fighting Repubicans for four to eight years.

    She is also setting herself up for a tough battle should she face McCain in the general election. The media will again call McCain the straight shooter, and we can’t deny that Hillary is a liar.

  • Actually, I think that while the SwiftBoat smear was audacious and attention grabbing, three particular flip-flop charges were more damaging – and proof that the attacks do in fact stick. (1) The “I voted for it before I voted against it”; (2) the “I’d do the same thing knowing what I know today” – I assume everyone who lambasts HRC’s refusal to apologize for the AUMF vote is equally negative on Kerry?; and (3) the sailboarding ad with the visual flip-flopping.

    What was really damaging about (2) and (3) were that the footage for (2) was shot on the ski slopes and (3) was not only on a sailboard, but right in front of a giant yacht. The Republicans got a glorious two-fer: Kerry was a dissembling flip-flopper AND as a fighter for average folks he was a fraud – he was really a rich sissyboy in lycra pants (on the sailboard) who did weird sports that real men dont do. Have I mentioned his wife has an accent and occasionally speaks French? eeewww. French.

    No, those stuck. Badly.

  • Doctor Biobrain

    Kerry tells a complex fact and Bush tells an outright lie; but the media will hound Kerry for not being ā€œcompletely truthful,ā€ while ignoring the Bush lie

    But I think part of what the media really hounds him for in this scenario is that the fact is complex. They like simple, even if it is a lie – it fits their 30 second soundbites. It doesn’t require them to learn the underlying policy issues. Moreover, the lie likely has more sizzle than the complex fact; if you aren’t going to make it sizzle, why bother lying? The dynamic is a little more complex than just Dems=bad, Reps=good. Part of it is that Dems don’t communicate in a way that is campaign savvy.

  • Anne – But the Swiftboat thing shouldn’t have worked either. It took Kerry too long to respond properly, but I remember laughing when I first heard the attacks and thought for sure it would backfire. It should have too. Kerry just took too long to effectively handle the attacks, and by the time he did, the damage was done. But if you recall, that was just one of HUNDREDS of attacks against Kerry, and was the only to stick.

    And even then, a relatively boring career politician with little popular appeal almost beat a sitting president who still had a diehard following and one of the best marketing machines in the world. As I said, GOP attacks are vastly exagerrated and only work if they make their opponents waste time defending them. In contrast, a Hillary attack on Obama is very effective because she’s a popular Democrat speaking to Democrats. Republican attacks are rarely effective because they only work on diehard Republicans.

  • ***ROTFLM???***WTF?…What’s wrong with bumper sticker: “Osama-Obama” Always talking trash on Hillary. Name calling and smearing to excess. I don’t even support her but would vote for her is she is the nominee and try to change her on some positions she holds as anyone caring about the larger picture would do. There’s no need to continually be offensive. Bumper stickers devalue bumpers. Stick to the issues, you’re better at that.

  • Part of it is that Dems don’t communicate in a way that is campaign savvy.

    Is that a problem you think Obama suffers from? Or is that, in fact, one of his strengths? So, do we really need to hire a fighter, when a communicator might be all we need?

  • i want a Dem with brass knuckes on. none of this laughable ‘we can get along’ crap. i want a president to kick the rethuglicans in the teeth, and thus i want a nasty hard-nosed candidate. ya, we stomp on it!

  • I for one am solidly on the side of disapproval of these Rovian/Clintonian tactics, which have become indistinguishable at this point. They are completely unacceptable and have precluded me for voting for the Clintons in November. I will vote for the Republican as a protest vote and so will almost everyone I know. And if the Clintons have lost me, they can forget about any moderates. They’re going to blow our chances to take back the White House and destroy the Democratic Party in the process. Thanks but no thanks.

  • Doctor Biobrain, that is an interesting question (#74). There is no doubt that Obama is a strong orator when he can get into a cadence, like a prepared speech. He is less effective under time limits or off the cuff, and lately even on his prepared material he has ended up spending a lot of time explaining.

    In some ways, while he is “new” relative to politics of the “Reagan-to-present” era, he is also a throwback to pre-1960 when TV and its 30-second and 60-second spots were not so dominant. Obama gives good speech – the question is does anyone actually listen to full-length speeches anymore? In some ways his full-length speechifying is Kerry-Gore-esque: a symptom of Senate-itis that doesn’t translate well to modern campaigning. But if you are in the crowd, as I’ve had the good fortune to do, it is easy to get swept up. He reminds me of many bands I’ve liked who are awesome live but even a live recording can’t quite capture the experience, and whose studio albums just sound flat.

    So I guess my response to your question is a yet to be convinced one way or the other “not sure.”

  • Ziet – Who did those stick with? Republicans loved them, but I don’t remember any Dems staying home because they saw a picture of Kerry windsurfing.

    I do remember speaking with a few people who I had assumed would vote for Kerry, but said they weren’t going to vote at all. And that was because they saw the election as being messy and that they didn’t really like either of the candidates. Basically, they had somehow fallen for the siren song of the independent who was above the fray and didn’t like all the fighting. But I think the problem is that they just weren’t inspired by Kerry. Not for any of the smears against him, but because they just considered politics to be dirty and Kerry gave them no reason to think differently, because he was kind of boring.

    Hillary will not lure them to vote, but Obama might. As I’ve said before, Republicans want politics to be dirty and they have no problem with dragging us into the mud. We need a guy who can fight, but without getting too dirty. I think Obama has that ability, while Hillary prefers the mud. I would have no trouble supporting her if there wasn’t a better candidate, but would prefer Obama since we have him.

  • They’re going to blow our chances to take back the White House

    No, Louise, only people who vote Republican, as you say you will do, can do that. The Clintons only have two votes (3 if you count Chelsea.)

    That “protest vote” comes at a very steep price. I’m not sure how one can make a principled statement on the issues that makes Obama (or some other non-Clinton Democrat) your first choice and a Republican your second. There is nothing Obama stands for that would be better served by Mitt Romney than by Hillary Clinton. But if you want to replace John Paul Stevens with the second-coming of Clarence Thomas, hey, its your conscience not mine. But I hope none of your female relatives have an unwanted pregnancy. Be a shame that they had to suffer for your tantrum.

  • Zeitgeist,

    Wasn’t it you that raised the question of why many liberals seem to hate Hillary Clinton last week? It looks like we now have the answer.

    Choosing between candidates isn’t only a matter of lining up lists of issues. The choice is also one of character, and the type of people who are governing. If she campaigns like this I must assume she will govern like this.

    In my book, Hillary Clinton is no different from George Bush and Dick Cheney.

  • jackie treehorn – I think you’re mistaken about Obama being a “get along” nice guy. Most people are. And the problem is that he has to say those things in order to not set-off the media’s “partisan” detector (which only applies to Democrats), plus he wants to woo independents who dislike partisanship. But I think he’s a liberal wearing a moderate glove. And this is in contrast to centrists, who talk like liberals while pushing conservative policies, in order to trick liberals. So he’s doing the opposite of centrists, including Hillary. But I’ve seen nothing in his record which suggests he’s a roll over and play dead nice Dem.

  • Nice to see the Clintons have learned so much watching Republicans over the years. When does Clinton use this newfound knowledge to grow a spine in the Senate and lead the fight against the administration’s willful destruction of Constitutional checks and balances?

  • …I waded through 50 comments of mostly Hillary-Hate, and found thought-worthy nugget… -Brownell

    I challenge you to find even half that number of hateful comments here directed towards Hillary. Just because someone doesn’t agree with her or her campaign doesn’t mean they hate her; and for every bit of ‘Hillary-Hate’ here is here there is an equal amount of ‘Obama-Rage.’

    I read very carefully the full text of Obama’s comment about Reagan and the Republican ideas… -Brownell

    Yeah, and Hillary lists Reagan among her favorite Presidents along with George H.W. Bush, so move on. Her attacking him for his supposed ‘praise’ of one of her faves is a little disingenuous, don’t you think?

    http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=4674

    Her list of favorite presidents – Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Lincoln, both Roosevelts, Truman, George H.W. Bush and Reagan – demonstrates how she thinks.

  • Hold on a second. The premise of the question being asked, which is being stated as fact, is that the Clintons are running a campaign based on lies, smears, voter suppression, and race-baiting?

    Are you kidding? I used to wonder whether this blog had some kind of grudge against Hillary Clinton (bending over backwards to interpret perfectly innocuous remarks as intentionally race-baiting), but this takes the cake. You can’t ask something like this and hope to be taken seriously anymore.

    Don’t push the patently false idea that the Obama campaign has been any cleaner than the Clintons. Obama is the one who went negative first, standing on that stage in Philly and calling Clinton disingenuous. He’s the one who kept insinuating about doubletalk and avoiding tough answers. He’s the one who skipped the Kyl-Lieberman vote, didn’t say anything about it for a while, and then started criticizing Clinton for her vote on it. His campaign aide was the one who pushed a reporter to investigate Bill Clinton’s post-presidential sex life. His wife was the one who wondered how if Hillary Clinton couldn’t control her own house, how she could run a country. His campaign is the one that put Jesse Jackson Jr. on MSNBC to question Clinton’s non-existent tears and imply she doesn’t care about black people. His campaign is the one that kept pushing the ludicrous story that “fairy tale” is somehow a racist remark to the press. He’s the one who keeps calling his health plan “universal” when it’s not. He’s the one who denounces labor unions and 527’s in Iowa but embraces them in Nevada and California. He’s the one who refused to denounce an ad saying that Hillary doesn’t care about Latinos. His supporters are the ones who can’t believe Clinton won a fair victory in either New Hampshire or Nevada, and have resorted to inflammatory charges of Diebold machines, mass closet racism among New Hampshire voters, and deliberate voter suppression in Nevada.

    And you know what? I don’t even care so much that he did all that (except for the trumped-up charges of racism, which were scurrilous and repugnant). That’s politics. That’s the way campaigns have been run for a long time now. But don’t pretend that poor, pure Obama is somehow above it while those evil Clintons wallow in the mud. That’s complete and utter nonsense.

  • Ralph,

    Your laundry list is not entirely accurate. The Clinton campaign did engage in race-baiting, but just did so subtly enough so that peple like you could pretend it wasn’t so. There are a number of other errors in your comments but most importantly, even where there is a grain of truth to your arguments, these things are absolutely nothing like the outright lies being spread by the Clinton campaign.

  • In my book, Hillary Clinton is no different from George Bush and Dick Cheney.

    Hey now, don’t say anything you might regret. Hell, I don’t even put Bush and Cheney in the same category. Bush is a spoiled idiot who was born with an empathy deficiency, while Cheney wasn’t spoiled and constantly seeks vengence to make up for this. Hillary, on the other hand, is a relatively ambitious person who had the tar beat out of her for several years and wants a little payback, which would be achieved by winning the Whitehouse. And she wants it so bad, she’s willing to play a little dirty to do it.

    And while I don’t approve of that, I’d still have supported her if I didn’t feel we had better options. And that’s what she’s counting on, just as Republicans count on their base looking the other way. Republicans rationalize it by insisting that Democrats cheat and that the ends justify the means. It looks like Hillary’s supporters are willing to do the same for her. All the same, I believe that we can win clean and that the dirty tactics will only make things harder.

  • One thing that is being overlooked in this discussion is that the internet is playing a much lager part in this election than ever before. It is much more difficult to lie and smear and get away with it on the net because we can all fact check and comment. Another overlooked issue is the importance of the Bush administration’s influence on this election. With all the lies and corruption and secrecy and the inability of the GOP to distance themselves from it because they supported Bush on everything. Too much is known about what this administration and the senate obstructionism has done to the nation. The terms of campaigning are not even close in this presidential election compared to ’04 no matter what the repukes try to do to make themselves credible they cannot eliminate their recent past. No republican will win the WH this election so it makes the question of electability mute.

    All this talk about Kerry and swiftboating etc shouldn’t even be of any concern. As mentioned above the truth about what has happened is all that is needed to put a dem in the WH. We should be the party we are, above gutter politics but with the ability to defend ourselves against smears and liars, dedicated to the people and not the corporations. The party that can make government smaller by making it more efficient. The party that is not exclusionary to minorities. We need not fear republican obstructionism and dirty tricks politics because the people are no longer asleep( like they have a tendency to be when things are going well in this nation). The necessity to halt this continuing disaster and avoid destroying our democracy sounded the alarm bell and we will come out in droves to take our country back from those leading it off a cliff. Dems can have faith that they will be supported in their efforts to accomplish their agenda. We are voting the bums out because we are mad as hell and we are not going to take this anymore. Enough is enough no matter how the gutter politicians try to spin it, we know better. The republicans are self destructive and have now imploded.

    In the words of Rush Limbaugh, “Reagan is DEAD. His policies may live on but we are in the process of doing something about that now.” Finally Rush said something right.

  • “One thing that is being overlooked in this discussion is that the internet is playing a much lager part in this election than ever before. It is much more difficult to lie and smear and get away with it on the net because we can all fact check and comment.”

    bjobotts #87- trust me, as someone who works tech support, you and we types who read political blogs are still unfortunately the “elite” even in 2008. Appealing to ignorance in politics works and the Clintons/GOP will prove it again.

  • ā€˜Race-Baiting’ has been the M.O. (modus operandi) of the Democratic Party for decades, though as the article states – ā€œRepublicans were the targetā€. What we now see going on in the Democratic Party, IMHO, is known as Karma, and I suspect that that Karma is only beginning to turn ā€˜Bad’…so to speak of such.

    Here’s another example of such divisiveness (i.e. focusing on ā€œraceā€ as a means to gain support and to divide Americans) coming back to haunt the Democrats: The Rainbow Coalition Evaporates

  • I can’t help but wonder if there’s another Dem who likes the idea of a candidate who plays by Republican rules.

    What Republican rules?

    I understand and condone defending oneself by:

    a) articulately setting the record straight (e.g. ideas challenging conventional wisdom isn’t the same as “better” ideas)

    b) putting the hypocrisy of the attacker on display for all to see (e.g. HillaryClinton.com lists GHW Bush and Reagan as two of her favorite presidents).

    c) exposing dishonest tactics for what they are

    With regard to exposing dishonest tactics, if Obama actually educates voters about tactics used to confuse them, then he’s immunizing them against such tactics. Sort of like telling your spouse what to expect when he or she walks into a car dealership (he’s gonna try and sell you the undercoating).

    If we’re adept, we can beat back the bullys with integrity.

  • Josef Goebbels had this doped out a long time ago:

    “A lie, often repeated, becomes reality.”

    Saddam Hussein/WMD/Saddam Hussein/WMD/Saddam Hussein/WMD…

    Newest version: HRC/Karl Rove/HRC/Karl Rove/HRC/Karl Rove…

    BS is BS, no matter how often how loudly you keep saying it. I’m just saying…

  • Oh, give me half a fucking break. Barack Obama has run a much more negative campaign than Hillary Clinton. He went negative on Clinton way back when she was still doing the above the fray thing and doing all her attacking on Republicans. He went negative early, he has stayed negative on Clinton throughout the campaign and has certainly thrown worse stuff at her than she’s thrown at him even on pushback. Up until the last month, Barack Obama had also pretty much gotten away with playing the victim when Clinton answered his attacks or even kicked his ass in a debate — by virtue of being the MSM’s favorite new shiny toy for most of 2007 — all the while accusing Clinton of doing just that any time she called foul on him.

    I don’t necessary blame Barack Obama for his tactics, really. He’s been impressively deft in his attacks. This is after all the high stakes game of presidential politics and Barack Obama is a politician who badly wants to be president. He kind of had to do something to try and overcome Clinton’s advantage in relevant experience and her other institutional advantages and had a limited menu of options, even given his impressive war chest. But if you want to point the finger at anyone for “cheap shots, misrepresentations, slash-and-burn tactics, and loose ethics,” to the extent that any Democrat is guilty of any of the above, certainly none are more guilty of any of those things than Barack Obama — although I will say Clinton is probably not that far back at this point and looks to be closing rapidly.

  • “I for one am solidly on the side of disapproval of these Rovian/Clintonian tactics, which have become indistinguishable at this point.”

    Moron.

  • Ron Chusid @ 80 –

    yep, that was me, and I still don’t see where the level of animosity comes from.

    there is nothing that has gone on in this campaign that was any worse than lies Mondale told about Hart (which we’re brutally effective and totally unsupportable), or than Kerry and Gephardt did to Dean pre-Iowa in 2004 (behind very Rovian anonymous 527s). No one had anything close to this level of scorn for any of them. The only difference I can see is that Hill doesn’t have a penis and she is running against the Messiah.

  • “Rove pays visit to Chicago campaign headquarters of Alan Dixon, a Democrat running for state treasurer. Disguised as a volunteer, Rove steals official campaign letterhead and sends out 1,000 invitations to people in the city’s red-light district and soup kitchens, offering “free beer, free food, girls, and a good time for nothing” at Dixon headquarters.”

    “Rove dreams up idea of staging calls to voters from supposed pollsters who ask such things as whether people would be “more or less likely to vote for Governor Richards if [they] knew her staff is dominated by lesbians.” ”

    “Rove is at heart of Bush’s vicious smear job on John McCain in South Carolina primary: Thinly disguised Bush surrogates claim McCain was a stoolie while a P.O.W. Rove also credited with spreading rumor that McCain’s adopted Bangladeshi daughter is black and illegitimate and his wife a drug addict. ”

    “Another candidate, Harold See, ran against Mark Kennedy, an incumbent Democratic justice and the son-in-law of George Wallace. The race included charges that Kennedy was mingling campaign funds with those of a non-profit children’s foundation he was involved with. A former Rove staffer reported that some within the See camp initiated a whisper campaign that Kennedy was a pedophile.”

    I really do not see how, at this time, anything the Clintons have done comes close to these typical Rovian tactics. Will they? Who knows. Maybe if their backs are up against the wall. But no where near yet. And Obama’s hands are not clean either, as noted above. As noted previously by a few commentors, Waldman’s piece is Rovian in itself and somewhat unfair, intentionally so. Why? See 91 above.

  • zeitgeist,

    It appears to me that no matter what Hillary Clinton does you will both find ways to both rationalize what she does and claim that any criticism of Clinton stems from sexism.

    The feelings about about both Bill and Hillary Clinton are based upon their own lack of ethics, and has nothing to do with the sex of either. The only sexism here is to rationalize anything she does, and dismiss any criticism, because she is a woman.

  • I love your work Steve; but I tire of your anti-Clinton tirades. Yes, she’s tough, as is her husband. But they’re orders of magnitude from the destructive, mendacious, slanderous, poisonous, Republican brand of electioneering.

    On our side, I think the only ones fighting unfairly are you are your “beat Hilary at any cost” brethren. I wish you’d stop it. It’s bad for our Party, and it’s bad for U.S. elections, and it’s just not polite. We are the good guys…

  • Ron @ 96

    Four words: Alice Palmer Tony Rezko.

    No matter how much you Obama fans pretend otherwise, the sun does not shine through Barack Obama’s halo – he is no less a politician than any other. He played rough with Alice Palmer, took favors from Tony Rezko. This is what politicians do. Grow up.

    And, as noted in some preceding posts, Hillary does not have horns and hoofs any more many other prominent and well respected politicians.

  • Horselover Fat,

    Alice Palmer?

    She was the one in the wrong in that situation. She ran for another office and hand picked Obama to run for her former seat. She lost and expected him to step aside and he didn’t.

    She tried to force her way on to the ballot with some petitions that the court found lacking.

    Holding that against Obama is just plain silly.

    What favors did he accept from Rezko? As far as I can tell, he’s returned any money associated with him.

  • What favors did he accept from Rezko? As far as I can tell, he’s returned any money associated with him.

    He “returned” the money?! Er, OK. If it had been a Republican, the story would never end until he was ran out of office. BTW, were they keeping taps on the money and favors he was receiving? If not, then how do we know how much he actually took? Has anyone checked Obama’s freezer?

  • There is a piece on TalkLeft on Alice Palmer, read it and reach your own conclusions. (Palmer is not the only candidate whose petitions Obama was challenging).

    There is a diary at MyDD that links to Chicago Sun-Times reporting on Rezko. Lots of smoke, hard to tell how much fire. Maybe we learn more in a month when Rezko goes to trial, Patrick Fitzgerald is on the case.

    The house purchase looks really fishy though, considering Rezko’s lot is being used by Obama.

    At the minimum, there will be lots of fodder for the Wurlitzer, look what it has done with other things that wound up as nothingburgers.

  • There is a piece on TalkLeft on Alice Palmer, read it and reach your own conclusions. (Palmer is not the only candidate whose petitions Obama was challenging). -Horselover Fat

    I know all about that situation having learned about it years ago, and I reached my own conclusions then. If Palmer had followed the rules for her petitions, the court wouldn’t have thrown them out. What you have is a typical Chicago Machine Democrat trying to muscle out a new guy she herself brought in.

    If it had been a Republican, the story would never end until he was ran out of office. -Seaberry

    I wouldn’t hold it against anyone if they found out a supporter was corrupt and returned the money. I expect honesty and integrity, not clairvoyance.

    Again, neither Horselover Fat or Seaberry provide any support for any untoward relationship between Rezko and Obama. Horselover, nice to see the guy who is against a progressive income tax in your corner.

    Patrick Fitzgerald is on the case. -Horselover Fat

    Oh, good. Someone will be indicted for obstruction of justice and then the whole thing will disappear like 5 million emails.

    Lots of smoke, hard to tell how much fire. -Horselover Fat

    Let me know when you have, you know, evidence.

  • Doesn’t this just prove that Hillary’s not a Democrat but, like her husband who enacted NAFTA, GATT, and the telecommunications debacle, a Republican?

    Don’t vote for Hillary. She’ll bring us more of the same.

  • I will support whoever the Democratic nominee is because I am not trying to prove my purity, I am trying to save my country from the Bush disasters.
    But I would like to point out that some here create a false dichotomy between Clinton and Obama tactics. For months, when Clinton was the frontrunner, Obama made innuendos, borrowed from Republican talking points, about her character and trustworthiness. More recently, there was the spectacle of his campaign implying that Clinton disrespected Martin Luther King, and even was racist, because of a truncated and distorted quote about MLK, JFK, and LBJ. This is just as bad if not worse than anything Clinton has done in this campaign. I don’t like that kind of distortion but I still respect Obama and he will have my full support should he win the nomination. Likewise Clinton.

  • Ron, if gender plays no role than where was all of this animosity toward Mondale, Gephardt, and Kerry who were every bit as nasty to their fellow Democrats? Why can the good ol boys play hardball but not the lady?

    Personally, I’d rather she didn’t – nor Obama nor Edwards. I’m not a big fan of intraparty violence. I’d rather keep them all relatively unbruised for the general. But the level of distaste for her seems unique, and the basis for that really does escape me.

  • I’m not a big fan of intraparty violence. I’d rather keep them all relatively unbruised for the general. But the level of distaste for her seems unique, and the basis for that really does escape me. -Zeitgeist

    I agree, and I hated it when Dean took the brunt of it in 2004.

    I’m not sure I would say the level of distaste for Clinton is unique; I think Obama is getting his share from several of the Clinton supporters.

    I am just chalking it up to the realization that this election is very important and they are both so close on paper that it’s style, strategy, and semantics that separate them.

    For me, though, it is the AUMF. I vowed long ago to never support someone who did that to us and Iraq. Fool me once, and all.

  • Hillary a fighter? I doubt it. Sure, she has the guts to use race-baiting against a black politician. But does she have the guts to stand up to Republicans? I doubt it. Why is she silent on FISA and telecom immunity? Like Harry Reid, she’s terrified of being called liberal. The main thing the Clintons seem to have learned from Republicans is that you can get away with abusing outsiders (e.g., black politicians). I’ll be impressed with Clinton’s fighting spirit when I see her get in Wall Street’s face. And I don’t expect to be impressed any time soon.

  • If you’re an Obama supporter, as you seem to be, this may not be your best horse to ride:

    Why is she silent on FISA and telecom immunity?

    Obama didn’t vote on the July FISA bill, and to my knowledge he has said no more about Telecom Immunity than HRC has.

  • The Clintons have shown a lot of fight in this race, to be sure.

    Too bad they didn’t show more of it over the last seven years, when Bill was making millions writing vapid books and giving speeches and Hillary was purchasing her “hawk cred” with other people’s blood and treasure.

    And any of us who fail to defer to their unquestionable good intentions and always-justified tactics are just sexists, or crypto-Rovians, or whatever the Restorationist line is this week.

    It’ll be sad for the country when Her Majesty loses in November. But at this point I have to admit there will be an element of schadenfreude as well. And at least presumably we’ll be rid of the Clintons.

  • 106

    “For me, though, it is the AUMF. I vowed long ago to never support someone who did that to us and Iraq. Fool me once, and all.”

    Are you familiar with the concept of “sunk cost?”

    Revenge is sweet, etc. – but what does it really buy you?

    I was dismayed by that vote at the time – not just for the immorality of the war, but because it was so obviously certain to become a giant cockup. Even so, the toothpaste is not going back into the tube.

  • Say what you like, but a political figure who will draw the line at nothing in order to gain power will always want more power, and will draw the line at nothing in order to keep it. Don’t hope for a repeal of all those invasive laws that allow the government to spy on its own citizens if Hillary Clinton is the president. Recall, if you will, how Hillary tried to out-hawk the Republicans when she wanted to look tough on Iran. She likely would hold to her word on not talking to Iran, and keeping preemptive war on the table, because she’d be afraid of looking weak on terror – as soon as she’s elected (if she is) she’ll be laying the groundwork for her re-election. No politician plans to serve a single term, and the only thing as important as getting elected is getting elected again.

    It’d be pretty sad if Americans wanted a Democrat who acted more like a Republican; there’s already little enough difference.

  • Steve Benen Wrote: In principle, I suspect most Dems would find this persuasive. We don’t want our campaigns to succeed on cheap shots, misrepresentations, slash-and-burn tactics, and loose ethics.

    At least, we say we don’t.

    —–

    Oh god. Please don’t post this kind of stuff any more. Or I will never vote again.

    The digree to which this is repugnant is inexpressable.

  • “a political figure who will draw the line at nothing in order to gain power”

    Wow, that’s quite a statement. So far, I haven’t seen any evidence to support that accusation other than a lawsuit filed in open court that rightly got thrown out.

    Race-baiting is incredibly ugly, but I have not seen it used by the Clinton camp. On the other hand, the Jesse Jackson Jr remarks are a good example from the Obama side. If that’s the way he wants to play this and his supporters approve, so be it, but that makes the statement I quoted up top rather ironic.

  • The problem of course, despite what white voters have or have not (more accurately in many instances) been able to perceive, African-American voters seem to be washing their hands of HRC because of the racist dog-whistles. If what I’ve seen in news reports and on the AA blogs is indicative of anything that group might just sit it out if she gets the nomination. Additionally, her tactics will depress the vote in other areas (youth for example) and she won’t get independents in the general so a slash and burn campaign might win her the primary with rabid hardcore Democrats (when did they start loving the DLC?) but it’s going to hurt her in the general and she’s risking a loss. Especially if the GOP candidate is John McCain.

    I almost look forward to the GOP calling her a racist for her campaign. Limbaugh already riffed on some of her language and implied as much. They’ll have a good old time pretending she’s the corrupt racist politician while St. John is the good guy.

    Nominating her = Dems shooting themselves in the foot again.

  • I think you might well be right – there are likely a great many democrats who acquiesce to the notion that this is what it takes to win. The implications are disturbing if they are wrong, and utterly depressing if they are right. If they are right, what kind of country is this? If decency falls in an election campaign, certainly it will fall in government – and the last decade presents an abundance of evidence that that is precisely what has happened.

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