The Iowa caucuses are much too silly

In “Monty Python and the Holy Grail,” King Arthur and his knights come across Camelot, and at least initially, couldn’t be more pleased. After thinking it over, and considering exactly what goes on inside Camelot, Arthur concludes, “On second thought, let’s not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.”

I’ve come to think of the Iowa caucuses in the same light. Before the nominating process begins in earnest, Iowa has a certain Midwestern charm, filled with voters who appreciate their role in picking the next president. But as we finally come upon Jan. 3, and get a look at what’s involved, it’s pretty obvious that the Iowa caucuses are much too silly.

Because the caucuses, held in the early evening, do not allow absentee voting, they tend to leave out nearly entire categories of voters: the infirm, soldiers on active duty, medical personnel who cannot leave their patients, parents who do not have baby sitters, restaurant employees on the dinner shift, and many others who work in retail, at gas stations and in other jobs that require evening duty.

As in years past, voters must present themselves in person, at a specified hour, and stay for as long as two. […] Now some are starting to ask why the first, crucial step in that process is also one that discourages so many people, especially working-class people, from participating.

“It disenfranchises certain voters or makes them make choices between putting food on the table and caucusing,” said Tom Lindsey, a high school teacher in Iowa City. Mr. Lindsey plans to attend this year, but his neighbors include a cook who cannot slip away from his restaurant job on Thursday night and a mother who must care for her autistic child.

Voting by absentee ballot is prohibited. There are no secret ballots, a bedrock democratic principle. The notion of “one-person, one-vote” does not really apply (the NYT noted that votes are weighted according to a precinct’s past level of participation).

There’s a legitimate debate to be had about whether Iowa deserves to go before the other 49 other states, in every presidential campaign, forever. But this is a different question altogether: if Iowa is going to go first, could they at least use a reasonable process that encourages Iowans to participate?

A former chairman of the Iowa Democratic Party said it is “magic” to see passionate, engaged voters take part in this civic treasure. If that excludes troops, single parents, people with health problems, and people who have to work at 7 pm on a Thursday, so be it. A leading Republican official said, “That’s just the way it works.”

I’m loath to highlight Christopher Hitchens’ work, but his critique of the Iowa caucuses is vicious and yet somehow fair. Noting that the Obama campaign has sent instructional DVDs to many Iowa Dems, Hitchens explains, “Nobody needs a DVD to understand one-person-one-vote, a level playing field, and a secret ballot.”

Worse, Jeff Greenfield adds that Dems have actually made participating more difficult than Republicans.

The Republican Party, by contrast, has recognized that the change in function, from local party business to presidential contest, requires a change in form. The GOP caucus process is straightforward and simple: You show up, perhaps listen to appeals from candidate’s supporters, and then write the name of your choice on a blank piece of paper and drop it into a box. The results are phoned into headquarters and tabulated. That’s it—one person, one vote; the candidate with the most votes wins.

But the Democrats have a totally different thing going on; one that discards at least two key elements of an open, fair system…. When you show up at a Democratic caucus, you and your fellow participants divide up into different corners of a room, based on who you are for. You don’t submit a secret ballot; you stand up to be publicly counted. What if you’re in a union and want to pick someone your union hasn’t endorsed, and your shop steward is there, watching you from across the room? Or the person who holds your mortgage? Or your spouse? Tough. “It is free, it is open, and you are there of your own volition,” says Carrie Giddins, the Iowa Democratic Party’s director of communications. But of course, you are also in a polling place on election day of your own volition — and most free societies think that it’s a good idea to let voters keep their choices to themselves.

And just to add insult to injury, no one is allowed to know exactly how many Iowans actually voted for the different candidates — the Iowa Democratic Party gets the numbers, but keeps them private. (The results that designate the “winner” only reflect the share of state delegates each candidate has won.) As Greenfield noted, it means “a candidate who turned out more total supporters than anyone else, across the state, could wind up in second or third place — and no one will know.”

A secretive, undemocratic process, that avoids democratic norms, and discourages participation?

Like I said, it’s a silly place.

I’m going to let Zeigeist handle this one. 🙂

  • Steve did this knowing I am at work and can’t fully respond just yet. 🙂
    Can everyone wait until this evening to comment? 🙂

    Yes, I will be writing a full response, but it may take a while. Let me just offer one line of it here: so the public town meetings that were commonplace for political decisionmaking at the founding of the Republic were undemocratic?

    so much more, but it will be after hours. . .

  • As I mentioned in another post last week, there was a piece on the news about how the process is so complex that voters need to go to rehersals to know what they have to do to make it work, and that the instruction manual for the process is over seventy pages long!

    That may have worked in the olden days to preserve a sense of community and local interaction (which I support in principle, just for the record), but in these times of instant news and analysis where what Iowans do matters on a global scale in a very real sense where millions of lives are literally on the line depending on how the next elections go, can we and they really afford to keep what is in all honesty a totally antiquated and unreliable mechanism for such an important task?

    Especially when the Republicans have switched to such an efficient and productive process without falling apart completely? I never thought I’d agree with the other side about *anything*, but I have to agree that they’re doing it better than the Dems in Iowa on this one single issue.

  • Oops. Sorry, Zeit, your request hadn’t shown up when I was working on my note. I look forward to your analysis, as always. 🙂

  • Iowa and New Hampshire should not get to go first forever. However, dissatisfaction with the status quo has led to everyone trying to get near the front of the process, which is worse than what we used to do.

    I really liked a suggestion that someone made that the state(s) that had the closest popular vote last time should go first next time. That would cause a rush to the center in the early primaries, but balancing the base and the center is going to happen in the general election anyway.

    A rotating schedule of blocks of states would also be fair.

  • Hitch isn’t all that bad; kind of nuts on the war, granted, but he’s great on religious issues and his coverage of Bhutto in Slate last week was the most balanced and informed I’ve seen anywhere. He does seem to enjoy provocation for its own sake, but at least he’s entertaining even when you disagree with him.

  • …so the public town meetings that were commonplace for political decisionmaking at the founding of the Republic were undemocratic?

    Times change. The Republic wasn’t founded yesterday. I would have to hear a really convincing argument to disagree with Steve on this one.

    That’s an absolutely absurd system which is only allowed to exists because of pigheaded tradition and a Country unawares.

    This level of tomfoolery makes me want to drink myself stupid and Google for news about Lindsay Lohan all day long, hoping that somehow I will find bliss in ignorance.

  • Steve, you forgot the part where the kingmaker states threaten any politician who even thinks about changing the system to be more Democratic.

    We should all get to vote in a meaningful primary. No offense to anyone who lives there, but I say to hell with New Hampshire and Iowa deciding who the rest of us get to vote for. Let’s say Utah was the first state instead of Iowa. Would that be acceptable? Of course not.

    I do like the way that the caucusing system lets supporters of lower-rung candidates make second choices, but the secret ballot issue is legit. There is obviously a lot of opportunity for abuse. We should use IRV voting*, and then we would have the best of all worlds. Of course the electoral college also needs to go.

    And as for some people getting retail politics while the vast majority get the usual crap, they should randomly draw some names of cities and towns, and hold town hall meetings there so a fair cross section.

    * http://www.instantrunoff.com/

  • Sorry Zeit, but I don’t see how you can defend this system.

    And though CB says it’s not OT, I don’t see how one can defend having Iowa, of all places, go first.

    True, there is sometime participatory in Democracy in having all Citizens proudly stand forth and declaim their candidates and their positions. We USED to do that in America. I think there’s a reason why we adopted secret ballots.

    Then again, with Diebold…

  • so the public town meetings that were commonplace for political decisionmaking at the founding of the Republic were undemocratic?

    to the extent that they limited the franchise, just off hand, i’d say yup, they were undemocratic.

    And they did.

    So they were.

    Yup.

  • Pretty nearly every ‘voting’ citizenry in the world, where the elections hold on to the least chinchilla of legitimacy, conduct series of national run-off elections.
    Only a country that could concoct the BSC could craft, much less perpetuate and defend, the current system.
    Think “Play-offs,” people.
    Cheers

  • If the Iowa caucus is a good process, then maybe monkeys will fly out of my butt as well. The conditions set up are ones that paint voters into a corner, that make it easy for them to be controlled.

    If I wanted to rig or gerrymander an election (for a conservative or Republican to control the winner, particularly), I would want conditions in the district just like the ones Steve described in his post.

  • “Silly” isn’t the word I would use for the Iowa caucuses. It’s really not funny.

    Not only do I reject the idea of Iowa and New Hampshire getting the first (and thus most important) vote. I reject the idea of any state getting it. Even going with a rotating state voting order, you give undue importance to an arbitrary group of people, since whoever goes first will have the power to make and break candidates before anyone else has a crack at them. Ditto for regional primaries.

    Aside from the idiocy of making one state’s residents into kingmakers, there’s also the fact that the extended primary system results in an ever-lengthening (and thus, ever-more-expensive) campaign as a whole. States crowd to the earlier voting dates, in an effort to avoid irrelevance, but even so, major states like California have no effective say in the nomination outcome at all.

    Then we end with this many-month-long gap after the nominees are de facto decided but before the “official” general election begins. The overlong campaign leads to tedium, as voters tune out and political reporters scrabble for some irrelevant angle to justify writing a story every day. Plus the gratuitous length of the process necessitates candidates spending ever-larger sums to deal with each other’s attacks, meaning all candidates are slaves to fundraising and big money.

    We have the opportunity to dramatically shorten the campaigns, give a voice to everyone in the nomination process, and reduce the role of money. First, eliminate the train of state primaries/caucuses/whatever and instead do a single national primary under uniform national voting rules, with this primary to be led no earlier than September. Use instant runoff rules to choose a definitive primary winner without the time or expense of the now-meaningless national conventions. Then hold the general election two months later (and while we’re at it, get rid of the frakking electoral college).

    Iowa is a symbol of all that’s wrong with our decrepit and outdated legacy voting system. If we’re going to try to fix it, let’s actually fix it and not just tinker.

  • Having done the caucuses back in 1988, they were great fun and a real eye-opener in terms of having a real political experience. It’s not every day you can stand up and be counted and try to persuade others about the merits of your choice and, more importantly, listen to them try to persuade you about the merits of their candidate. Sure, we can do it online but it’s not even remotely the same. The Iowa Democratic Party has no reason to want to change, as the caucus system has helped the state party grow stronger over the years. A primary wouldn’t do that so I don’t expect the caucuses to be dropped anytime soon.

    No, they aren’t 100% fair in terms of being open to all and that’s a legitimate complaint as far as presidential preferences go. But the Iowa Democratic Party seems to think the pluses of the caucuses outweigh the minuses and it’s their call in the end. As far as Iowa going first, I’ll just repeat the main reason for it – which is to give an opportunity for true retail, face-to-face politics at the start so that even long shots can have a chance to be heard without having big money or fame coming into the race. Of course New Hampshire does that too as it’s a very small state both geographically and population wise. Is this the best way to start picking and choosing among candidates? Maybe it is. I’d be willing to hear others out about alternatives, but frankly a regional primary would just favor the big names. Rotating the chance to go first seems fair enough though, but then you have to settle who gets to. Have fun with that!

  • I was also taken aback when I attended my first caucus here, for the very same reasons as noted in the article.

    However, I believe part of the reason Iowa doesn’t allow absentee balloting is the discussion that takes place during the caucus. An absent person would simply not hear the discussion. The process tends to weed out the weaker candidates, but does put pressure on “neighbors” to conform.

    I would like to see the balloting become secret and would entertain the idea of absentee balloting. If for no other reason than to allow the military a greater role.

  • Ronin, you can’t know who to talk to to discuss anything if you don’t know where they stand to begin with.

  • RacerX

    I type slowly; I was writing my post and didn’t see yours. Looks like we agree on the instant runoff and dump-the-electoral-college stuff.

  • I live in Iowa City, and our family eagerly looks forward to participating in tomorrow night’s caucus–a solemn rite that we have celebrated ever since we moved here 21 years ago. I understand all the Iowa caucus bashing. Much of what has been said is legitimate, especially about people who cannot attend due to work, family responsibilities, and so forth.

    On the other hand, no one can understand the electricity of the Iowa Democratic caucus (the Republicans just hold a vote–yawn) until he or she has actually participated. We come together with our neighbors and talk openly, jokingly, and raucously about the candidates. We really DO seek to persuade one another. The room is full–usually overflowing–with committed Dems who want to select a nominee who will beat the Republicans. It is SO much different than the stale, isolated step of casting a secret ballot. And we DO listen to one another–especially when we try to decide what to do with the mathematical “remainders.” For example, if it takes 25 people to gain one delegate, and 35 folks want Obama to win, at ten people must head to another group (or the Obama fans must induce another 15 people to join them), or their votes are “wasted.” This leads to cheerful, exuberant “raiding” of friends and neighbors through friendly persuasion.

    It may be wrong for Iowa to be first. It may be wrong to do it by a method other than by secret ballot. But I assure you that we take our responsibility very, very seriously, and that we will be giving it our all to help select a Democratic WINNER tomorrow night.

  • jimBOB said: “Looks like we agree on …. dump-the-electoral-college stuff.”

    Oh, yes, please! Time we got this fixation with the Founding Fathers out of our system, along with two senators for every state and no representation of the District of Columbia.

    These are the guys who enshrined Slavery into our founding law…

    And James Madison said we should have a Constitutional Convention every twenty years (God, would I love to be able to find an Internet citation of that!)…

    And just as an aside, if you run into a Wingnut who thinks the Founding Fathers were anti-abortion, explain to him that the first anti-abortion laws were established in this country in the 1840’s, and that at the time of the writing of the Constitution legal opinion was that human life began only when the child’s hearbeat could be heard or the child could be felt moving, right in the middle of the second trimester.

  • “…so the public town meetings that were commonplace for political decisionmaking at the founding of the Republic were undemocratic?”

    Well, yes – in a word they were. Women didn’t have the vote, slaves didn’t have the vote, shiftwork and the notion of the “working class” as we know it was in it’s nascency. Essentially what you had were monied landholders (who could afford to be away from farmwork) and craftsmen (townies).

  • I loved being in Iowa during the caucus. It was great. You got sick of all the commericials but it was nice to be able to meet and talk to every single candidate.

    I could spend 20 minutes talking to them before the campaign really got going.

    However, it is disgusting that one state can have so much power.

    We need to change the rules and let another state go first. I think it should be announced 4 years in advance so someone like Jimmy Carter can pound the flesh and potentially rise from nowhere. A regional primary will solve the problem of taking the power away from Iowa but it wouldn’t ever let us nominate someone like Carter

  • Jim Bob very good points. Someday this nation will either change its antiquated systems and beliefs or it will desinigrate and be a history lesson to the rest of the world.

  • We should let all the small states go on the first Tuesday of May.

    The medium states on the first Tuesday of June.

    The large states on the first Tuesday of July.

    Why should there be any “small state/first state” filter of our candidates? I bet there’s a state out there Ron Paul could win today if the contest was held on the same day as the others (probably Wyoming).

  • To those who favor a national primary with instant run-off voting, good luck on coming up with a way to decide just who and who doesn’t get on the ballot.

  • actually Lance, i dont have a big problem with that approach. my only real bias is towards having smaller, lower cost states early so that people can pull the kind of surprise that Jimmy Carter did, and so that more diverse candidates have a chance to break through. as Dale and I discussed last night, i also think there are advantages to a “human scale” early that candidates have to interact on.

    a national primary (or even a large regional primary, or starting with the big states) will ensure that no one but the most entrenched, monied, celebrity candidates can win.

  • So all the non-Iowa voters are lemmings waiting to see what the lead lemming is going to do? Whatever happened to making up your own mind?

  • good luck on coming up with a way to decide just who and who doesn’t get on the ballot.

    How do they get on the state primary ballots? What’s to prevent a national version of the same process?

  • Lance, the fact that some states do favor some ideological flavors of candidates more than others does point out a potential problem. If Alaska went first, no doubt Mike Gravel would do better than going nowhere. There is no ideal system for the process! Just remember that the current situation came about because of what transpired in 1968 in Chicago, when the party rank-and-file rebelled against the proverbial smoke-filled room at the national convention. In no small way it was an improvement in terms of opening up the Democratic Party.

  • dcarney

    If your preferred candidate has already withdrawn or been mathematically eliminated by the time your state’s primary vote rolls around, making up your own mind has precious little effect.

  • How do they get on the state primary ballots? What’s to prevent a national version of the same process?

    They have to turn in petitions, with each state having its own criteria. I suppose you could simply require a candidate to qualify in all 50 states, but that’s a pretty steep hurdle.

  • Pretty damning stuff.
    WHY keep the numbers secret?
    They should go to touch screen voting. If secrets are their thing and the winner getting less than a majority, Diebold could be just their thing!

    First state? It should be in order of number of delegates similar to Lance @ 25
    Rotate it through in case of ties.
    Perhaps bunching elections to make each election an opportunity for a turnaround.

    3 delegates (Wyoming, for example)
    6 delegates (DC and North Dakota)
    9 delegates (South Dakota, Montana, Vermont)
    18 (Delaware, Alaska, Rhode Island, Hawaii, New Hampshire)
    35 (Maine, Utah, Idaho, Nebraska, West Virginia, New Mexico, Kansas, Nevada)
    69 (Iowa, Arkansas, Mississippi, Connecticut, Oklahoma, Oregon, Kentucky, Colorado, Minnesota, Alabama, South Carolina, Lousiana)

    30 states could weigh in with the bulk of the delegates still to be counted.

    Early states would be influential because they steer early victors towards the final prize. Subsequent states are influential because they can reject the previous candidates and transfer momentum. Later states because they are much bigger prizes.

    New Hampshire having 4 delegates could never be first, so they’d need a constitutional amendment to go along.

  • a national primary (or even a large regional primary, or starting with the big states) will ensure that no one but the most entrenched, monied, celebrity candidates can win.

    Have we had any nominees in the past three decades who didn’t fit this description? Is there some reason to think nominating inexperienced unknowns is a good thing?

  • While I do not agree with Iowa going first, after attending my first caucus in MN in 2006 I will have to agree there is something to that process that is really fun and exciting. While it does tend to leave out some participants, I found it much more fulfilling then simply dropping a vote in a box.

    And it allows you to meet people around you who share the same basic views. This part of the process is what excites me the most as a renter who does not know many people in my district.

    Yes somethings need to be tweaked to bring it more in line with current times, but I prefer to participate in this over a boring primary.

  • Re: #27.

    Well, then Zeitgeist, we agree, assuming Iowa counts as a low delegate state, it can be amongst the first in the nation.

    For all I care, it can even keep its caucus.

    Re: #30.

    Dave, I want Gravel to get his Alaska delegates. Let’s see then where else he can compete.

    By the way, but the break up of the states I mean that no candidate can have won the nomination before the last voting states get their votes. So small + medium has to be less than 50% of the number of delegates.

  • WHY keep the numbers secret?

    Because it’s irrelevant to the matter at hand, which is to name Democractic delegates at the precinct level to go to the party’s county convention later in the year. For example, in 1988 from my precinct in Ames, IA we could send 9 delegates to the Story County convention. Out of about 120 persons who came, IIRC, we managed to get 26 to back Bruce Babbitt on the second round (after barely surviving with 18 in the first!), and we were therefore entitled to send on two delegates, of which I was one. It didn’t matter how many people initially supported Babbitt, only that we managed to get enough support to earn the delegate slots.

    Of course the first round counts are tallied up and kept by the precinct captain, and that’s shared with the public. But it’s not what actually counts in the end, which is at the state convention. (FWIW, Babbitt didn’t have enough support at the county I was in to get state delegates, so we horse-traded with the Gephardt people for some support on environmental issues. That Gephardt was a non-candidate later on didn’t matter in terms of having our environmental concerns heard.)

    Contrary to Steve Benen’s take on Iowa being somehow “un-democratic”, I feel a bit sorry for the fact that so many people don’t ever have a chance to really get politically involved as they easily can in Iowa, but are reduced to punching a ballot every few years and having no real part in the process otherwise.

  • Dave, I want Gravel to get his Alaska delegates. Let’s see then where else he can compete.

    Not fair! Gravel is a native. All non-Alaskan candidates were unfairly excluded from the process! Alaska has too much of a say! Waaaaahhhh!!!

  • jimBOB

    If your preferred candidate is so weak they can’t make it through Iowa and N.H., do you really think they would make it down from there. The winnowing out process will take place no matter what the order.

  • They have to turn in petitions, with each state having its own criteria. I suppose you could simply require a candidate to qualify in all 50 states, but that’s a pretty steep hurdle. -David W.

    Or, you know, since it’s a National office and not a State office, get rid of those silly State imposed impediments and come up with a set of requirements nationally.

    I know, it’s almost so simple it’s plausible!

    Seriously, sometimes I think we should ask a five year old child how to do this because we’ve made it all so ridiculously hard then we wonder why people don’t participate.

    I feel a bit sorry for the fact that so many people don’t ever have a chance to really get politically involved as they easily can in Iowa, but are reduced to punching a ballot every few years and having no real part in the process otherwise. -David W.

    Mostly because the antiquated, tradition-bound gatekeepers of Democracy have already made the decisions for the rest of us. Let us know who is left after your three-legged sack races so we can pretend we have a say.

    I honestly can’t believe you’re making the argument that the Iowa caucuses encourage participation when it has the effect of basically shutting out so many people.

    Shouting at people until they change their mind and ‘horse-trading’ isn’t politics. There is too much at stake and too much information available to the truly engaged to think that your ancient religions and hokey weapons are a match for the Empire.

    Could you do us all a favor when you go this year, though, and tell them Obama isn’t a Muslim?

  • With the most sincere respect to the people of Iowa, the first presidential caucus or primary for better or worse can have an effect on future events sometimes far beyond the numbers of voters involved. Whoever comes out on top will shout to the rooftops, “I was the choice of the people of Iowa!”, when it’s clear now that the choice was made by only a certain percentage of Iowans who were all subject to emotional decisions made under intense peer pressure.

    If the people of Iowa want to continue the current system because it’s so much fun, then fine. But in all fairness it should be moved back to the middle or even the end of the primary period because the rest of the country should not have their choices skewed, or even potentially skewed, just because the people of Iowa want to stick to their own arcane and insular system.

    Sorry, folks, but fair is fair.

  • Or, you know, since it’s a National office and not a State office, get rid of those silly State imposed impediments and come up with a set of requirements nationally.

    Great, let me know when you get all those silly states to go along with that. Herding cats and all.

    I honestly can’t believe you’re making the argument that the Iowa caucuses encourage participation when it has the effect of basically shutting out so many people.

    It does encourage participation in the Democratic Party organization, which is what it’s *meant* to do. Think of it more as a party-building exercise that’s had a presidential contest piggy-backed on to it. At least the Democrats who come to caucus have a say in the process, unlike the Republicans who take a non-binding straw poll but later the party insiders pick their delegates the old-fashioned way, in a back room.

    Shouting at people until they change their mind and ‘horse-trading’ isn’t politics. There is too much at stake and too much information available to the truly engaged to think that your ancient religions and hokey weapons are a match for the Empire.

    First, shouting doesn’t work. What works as I know from personal experience is knowing what you and your candidate are for and communitcating those things respectfully and as simply as possible under the circumstances. Do you really think people are so weak that they can be bullied willy-nilly? Horse-trading in politics is also a fact of life. There are some things that you or I may not be willing to negotiate over of course, but there are other things we are willing to bend on.

  • If your preferred candidate is so weak they can’t make it through Iowa and N.H., do you really think they would make it down from there. The winnowing out process will take place no matter what the order.

    Now you move the goalposts. Your original point was that we later-voters could think for ourselves. I pointed out that this becomes irrelevant if the field has already been “winnowed down” before we get a crack at it. (In fact, it will often have been winnowed down to a single candidate.) Now you tell me I should just suck on it since… well, you don’t give a reason.

    Here’s a hint. People who don’t live in Iowa or New Hampshire might like to have a say in this “winnowing” process. I’m sure it all seems great to all these Iowans whose lives/jobs etc. allow them to go hang with the caucuses for hours, but for everyone else (i.e. a huge majority of U.S. citizens) it really isn’t so hot.

  • Think of it more as a party-building exercise that’s had a presidential contest piggy-backed on to it.

    Trust me, this is how we do think of it. The problem is that it has become an overwhelmingly important part of the nomination process, forcing candidates to practically live in Iowa for months and cater slavishly to its parochial concerns. If the caucuses are going to be such a huge part of the nomination decision, the very least we could ask is that they be conducted with something approaching democratic principles in mind. They aren’t.

    Another way of saying this is that a hugely important gatekeeping function in choosing our nominee ought to be something more than an afterthought grafted onto a local party meeting.

  • Great, let me know when you get all those silly states to go along with that. Herding cats and all.

    Your are probably right about this. However I had the impression we were talking about the best way to set the system up rather than just preemptively surrendering and sticking with a crappy system since changing it would be difficult.

  • People who don’t live in Iowa or New Hampshire might like to have a say in this “winnowing” process. -jimBOB

    As several commentors have shown, the people who do live in Iowa and New Hampshire clearly don’t give a fuck about the opinion of the other 96% of the country.

    Great, let me know when you get all those silly states to go along with that. Herding cats and all. -David W.

    You don’t feel the change coming? Can you honestly sit here and tell me this has been the usual build-up to the primary season? With all the date jumping and piggybacking that has been going on, can’t you smell what the Rock is cooking?

    Change is coming, but it looks like Iowans will be the last ones to know (read acknowledge reality).

    It does encourage participation in the Democratic Party organization, which is what it’s *meant* to do. -David W.

    Maybe for a handful of people in your area. The rest of America is full of people who don’t think their votes make a difference in any way because Iowa can’t grow up and let go of an aging tradition.

    So what you gain in the way of a few hundred caucus goers you loose in the way of a few hundreds of thousands of people who are systematically disengaged.

    Do you really think people are so weak that they can be bullied willy-nilly? -David W.

    In the article, Steve already laid out a few plausible scenarios in which bullying could have an impact on how one participates in the caucus.

    Think of it more as a party-building exercise that’s had a presidential contest piggy-backed on to it. -David W.

    This is why the rest of the country hates it. Your priorities are all mixed up. You want to build the party, fine. Go to the woods and fall backwards into each others arms. The grown-ups are trying to pick a world leader.

    You’re system leaves the rest of a America with two choices: apathy or anger. Apathy typically won in the past, but the anger is growing as more people are becoming engaged because of the consistent and abject failures of the current primary system.

  • doubtful – just to clarify:

    1) Is your complaint about the fact that Iowa chooses delegates first, or how Iowa chooses its delegates? (two very separable issues – but i strongly sense that you would object just as strongly if Iowa voted tomorrow and used a primary)

    2) Do you then support a single national primary?

  • doubtful, given Jeff Greenfield’s (not Steve Benen’s) laundry list of possible scenarios, it’s not likely you’re going to run into your boss or union steward at a given precinct. And Greenfield’s bit about your mortgage holder knowing who you support is just silly. The bullying assertion is waay overblown.

    I can understand why other voters in other states want more of a say and why they’re tired of Iowa always going first. That doesn’t mean you won’t have the same complaints no matter who goes first though. And as I said earlier, some states are more of a problem than others if one of the things you want in the process is an opportunity for the lesser-known and well-off candidates to be heard. Whatever you may say about Iowa going first, it does give even the little guys and gals a chance to do just that. I wouldn’t toss that aside without thinking hard about the alternatives first.

    You’re right about the process being strained though, given how other states have moved up their primaries. But note that they’re also trying to leapfrog each other, not just Iowa and New Hampshire, so it’s not like they’re all unified about anything other than their own self-interest. Iowans aren’t pleased about having such an early caucus either. BTW, I live in Wisconsin now, so it’s not like I have a selfish stake in all this. I just know a bit about the history of all this and that there’s no simple other way. Cripes, it took the events of 1968 to usher in the last party reforms so you know it don’t come easy.

  • To put this in simple terms, shouldn’t the method of selecting delegates in Iowa be up to the citizens of Iowa? And applying the logic one further step, shouldn’t the time and place for such selection be up to the citizens of the given state—and not decided by a centralized authority?

    And what in blazes is wrong with requiring people to stand and be counted for their viewpoints? Rather than abolishing the long standing practice of voting by “division of the house,” reinforce the laws that are supposed to make IMPEDING Freedom of Speech, Expression, and Association a criminal offense.

    What’s that union steward going to do—risk going to prison to enforce rank-and-file solidarity? Can a spouse justify filing for divorce on political grounds? Will an employer risk losing his/her business in order to coerce an employee’s support for a given candidate?

    While there are flaws in the Iowa system, forcing the people of Iowa to adopt a more norm-referenced standard—a one-size-fits-all political demagoguery—should be nothing short of democratic abomination in a land where an individual is supposed to be allowed free choice. Telling someone “you must make your choice the way we tell you to” is no less an aberration than telling that person who they must choose….

  • doubtful, given Jeff Greenfield’s (not Steve Benen’s) laundry list of possible scenarios… -David W.

    I apologize Steve and David W. for the erroneous attribution.

    1) Is your complaint about the fact that Iowa chooses delegates first, or how Iowa chooses its delegates? -Z

    Both.

    2) Do you then support a single national primary? -Z

    I do. I have heard the arguments about ‘big money’ candidates having an easier go at it, but all in all, I believe the flaws of a single national primary are less grating on democracy than that which we currently have.

    I’ve never known a candidate to be successful in my lifetime via the current system who wasn’t big money, anyway, so it’s a moot point.

    I want national standards and a national vote.

    To put this in simple terms, shouldn’t the method of selecting delegates in Iowa be up to the citizens of Iowa? -Steve

    I don’t agree. Not for Federal offices not beholden to the State. Senators, Representatives, sure, fine; they can see who can hold a gallon of water in their outstretched hands the longest for all I care. And really, we’re not talking about Iowa choosing for Iowa. We’re talking about Iowa choosing for the whole nation, and that simply is not fair.

    I also thought States Rights was just wink, wink, nudge, nudge code for racism? I guess it’s code for elitism, too.

    What’s that union steward going to do—risk going to prison to enforce rank-and-file solidarity? Can a spouse justify filing for divorce on political grounds? Will an employer risk losing his/her business in order to coerce an employee’s support for a given candidate? -Steve

    Please. Don’t pretend you can’t imagine a scenario in which not doing what’s expected of you in those situation could have repercussions. There is a reason we vote secretly, and this is it. Wives lie to their husbands every year about how they voted out of fear of reprisal, and gee, what if you’re overlooked for the promotion after not voting the same way as your boss. C’mon.

    While there are flaws in the Iowa system, forcing the people of Iowa to adopt a more norm-referenced standard—a one-size-fits-all political demagoguery—should be nothing short of democratic abomination in a land where an individual is supposed to be allowed free choice. -Steve

    Oh please. When you’re voting for the President of Iowa, fine. But when the President is of the United States, don’t give me this bullshit. There should be a damned national standard.

    I seriously thought Democrats were fighting for some national election standards? Diebold, butterfly ballots, hanging chads, expunged voters. I guess that all goes out the window when reform affects the way you want to do things. I guess it’s okay if you’re an Iowan Democrat.

  • hey, IOKIYAID. hmm. that works for me.

    seriously, however, maybe i am naive, but in 25 years of going to caucuses, I can only think of one time I saw anything that would be bullying/coercive or of that “union steward” or boss scenario – and that was a rather unique situation: when Sen. Tom Harkin ran for President. His machine is huge in the state, and his people were at every caucus, and that was indeed a little awkward. I stood for someone else anyway.

  • I can only think of one time I saw anything that would be bullying/coercive or of that “union steward” or boss scenario… -Z

    I’m guessing it’s the times you don’t see it that make the most difference.

    Well, enough bitterness for me for one day. I have a parting question…why can’t they follow the town hall ‘stand for your candidate’ style meeting with a ballot box, pen to paper vote?

  • Iowa Democrats are choosing their delegates for their state and national conventions. If you don’t want to pay attention to it don’t.

  • Thank you Mike in Iowa, Mike W. and of course, Zeitgeist. I’ve been following this thread on and off all day and am disheartened by the acrimony directed at Iowans for having the first chance to express presidential preferences, yes, by selecting delegates to the conventions. We don’t take these caucuses lightly, and do a lot more work sizing up candidates than states with mere primaries (and I have lived in both) and a decision to stand for a candidate takes a good deal of reflection and discussion for most people. The commitment to go out on a cold January night for several hours requires a lot more thought and effort than 2 minutes in a voting booth marking a ballot, which most likely was influenced primarily by 30 second ads on TV. So … would you rather choose your candidate via drive through menu or a lengthy sit down dinner? We bumpkins actually opt for the conversation over dinner, so just STFU.

    As for this notion that we think we control the choice for the nation, that’s just pure, unadulterated BS. No one I know who caucuses thinks this way; we just view it as our way, indeed duty, to express our preferences. That bitter commenters in other states resent this, I can’t do much about that, but I suspect that these folks will resent whoever ends up being first next time around if we abandon the current system. (And I am, for the record, not in favor of the “front-loaded” theory that performed sooo well for us with Kerry in 2004.) This is a puerile reaction I fail to understand … it’s like getting all worked up about who gets to recess first in the playground and the resentment builds from there. I bet most Iowans wouldn’t mind losing first caucus status, so we could answer our phones and doors normally, and especially this year, when, through the shenanigans of other states trying to leapfrog, we’re stuck in the situation we are now. And as Mike in Iowa said, “If you don’t want to pay attention to it, don’t.”

    Finally, several commenters have alluded to the whole caucus system as being elitist, which is a ridiculous notion, coming from some of the same people who like to characterize Iowa as a “fly over state” and Iowans as “hicks,” ” bumpkins” and generally uneducated hayseeds in the cornfields. How that makes us “elitist” escapes my comprehension, given this dismissive attitude. So does that allow us to characterize New Yorkers and New Jersey as a bunch of mafia goons? New Englanders as effete, pedigree obsessed snobs? Californians as self-obsessed navel gazers? Southerners as a bunch of redneck yahoos? Enough already with the regional stereotypes! We’re just rank and file Democrats who want to end this illegal regime, just like the rest of you supposedly do. We’re just ordinary people who make the effort to get out and try to move forward the candidates who seem most likely to represent our ideals for what this nation should be like. Don’t tell me that a “national primary” would achieve the same goal … that is most likely to give us McCandidates the least likely to go in the direction the people actually want to go.

    As for Thursday night, if it rankles your ire so much that Iowa goes first, well, then turn to another channel, ignore the whole affair and just STFU. The rest of us bumpkins out here will be out doing what we can to choose a candidate who can beat the Rethugs come fall. It’s as simple a proposition as that. If you don’t like how it’s set up this time around, then wallow in your provincial misery and STFU.

  • We bumpkins actually opt for the conversation over dinner, so just STFU.

    Yes all 6% of you that participate do. What about the large majority who don’t? Of no account, apparently.

    As for this notion that we think we control the choice for the nation, that’s just pure, unadulterated BS.

    Funny how after you all do your caucus thing, bunches of candidates disappear. This time through, if Iowa and New Hampshire go strongly for Hillary, the rest of the race will just be a formality. If John Edwards doesn’t do well in Iowa, most of the rest of us won’t ever get a chance to vote for him at all. On the GOP side, Thompson is set to leave the race even before New Hampshire. But any perception that Iowa/New Hampshire are gatekeepers is “pure unadulterated BS.” How do we know this? Well, “no one I know who caucuses thinks this way.” Hey, there’s a compelling bit of logic.

    Finally, several commenters have alluded to the whole caucus system as being elitist, which is a ridiculous notion, coming from some of the same people who like to characterize Iowa as a “fly over state” and Iowans as “hicks,” ” bumpkins” and generally uneducated hayseeds in the cornfields.

    I challenge you to find anyone upthread who used the terms “elitist,” “fly over state,” “hicks,” “bumpkins,” or “hayseeds.”

    And as Mike in Iowa said, “If you don’t want to pay attention to it, don’t.”

    I wish we didn’t have to either, but it’s not possible.

  • Funny how after you all do your caucus thing, bunches of candidates disappear.

    That’s to be expected. It’s not like Mike Gravel or Dennis Kucinich are going to be around much longer, or if the are to be worth taking seriously. On the other hand, as I recall from 2004, Edwards managed to parlay a strong second-place finish in Iowa into a more lengthy campaign – including Wisconsin, where he came in a close second to Kerry and more or less cinched the V.P. nomination. So sometimes a candidate who does well ends up being able to stick around too.

  • C’mon, doubtful—do you actually believe that the people of Iowa are going to just let you and your silly “national-standard” garbage waltz right in and supersede the Constitution? Go back and read your 10th Amendment, kiddo. There will never be a national standard for the primaries; that’s a slippery slope that, given enough thought, even you might want to reconsider. It’s just too “Big-Brother-ish” to even contemplate in reality-based terms—and yes, I’ve seen the “union-steward” issue. I’ve experienced it, as well, and I can absolutely- positively, without-a-shred-of-doubt say that there’s nothing quite so satisfying as taking a tire-factory union steward who gets his jollies by bullying people to vote a certain way—dumping a bucket of benzene over his head—and then threating to “flick your Bic” if he doesn’t knock if off.

    Sincerely,
    URW Local 6
    Mohawk Tire
    Akron, OH
    Charter “Retired” 1/10/78

  • We bumpkins actually opt for the conversation over dinner, so just STFU. -Iowa Victory Gardener

    The irony of saying you prefer talking things out just prior to telling those who disagree with you to “shut the fuck up,” is so delicious I think I’ll have another slice.

    Mmmm.

    I’ve been following this thread on and off all day and am disheartened by the acrimony directed at Iowans for having the first chance to express presidential preferences, yes, by selecting delegates to the conventions. -Iowa Victory Gardener

    Nothing like posting at 3:01 AM after following a conversation all day to encourage some responses.

    You’re just being obtuse if you think your outdated methods don’t have a significant impact on the rest of the country’s choice. We can’t just turn off the TV and pretend it doesn’t exist. Sheesh.

    If you honestly think that you have no impact on the rest of the country, and as you indicate, Iowan’s don’t, they’re simply just doing their civic duty, then do me a favor:

    GO LAST!

    Oh, not willing to do that, huh? That’s what I though. Nothing but hot, late to the party air.

    I challenge you to find anyone upthread who used the terms “elitist,” “fly over state,” “hicks,” “bumpkins,” or “hayseeds.”

    Actually, I used the term ‘elitist’ in reference to the States Rights arguments. I stand by that.

    Go back and read your 10th Amendment, kiddo. -Steve

    Nice ad hominem with the ‘kiddo.’ You only make your own argument look weak that way.

    I understand why Iowans would disregard the national push for standards, but look at this primary cycle and tell me honestly what the people outside of Iowa want? It is coming and there isn’t anything that can be done to stop it.

    Again with the irony: pointing out an amendment to a document to tell me that things can’t be changed. It’s so rich and filling.

    Big brotherish? To have some national election standards? You’re paranoid.

    …nothing quite so satisfying as taking a tire-factory union steward who gets his jollies by bullying people to vote a certain way—dumping a bucket of benzene over his head—and then threating to “flick your Bic” if he doesn’t knock if off. -Steve

    Wow. Just wow. Maybe this is why your paranoid given your violent past.

  • The problem with the one-man one-vote secret ballot critique is that these are not actually elections. They are the procedures by which two private entities, the Democratic and Republican Parties, choose delegates from the individual states to attend a restricted convention that will choose a candidate for the party to back in a general election. Last I checked the Constitution there’s no mention of parties or the function of parties in the system. Has anybody looked to see how the Socialist caucus is shaping up? I didn’t think so.

    A parting question: What would the nominating process look like if participants in the caucuses and primaries had to be real dues paying members of the various Parties?

  • 26.
    On January 2nd, 2008 at 3:19 pm, David W. said:

    To those who favor a national primary with instant run-off voting, good luck on coming up with a way to decide just who and who doesn’t get on the ballot.
    —————————
    That’s for the party to decide. It’s their election, and it is not supposed to be open to the general public. If a party wants to discriminate against women/minorities, impose a ridiculously convoluted system, vote on the Internet, open the process to independents and members of the opposition, or defer the entire selection process to smoke-filled room of top-level party members at the national convention, it should be entirely up to that party, and the consequences are theirs to suffer for their bad decision-making. Neither the states, nor the FEC ought to have any role in primary elections.

    Is it fair? Hell no. Is it efficient? Not particularly. Is it effective? Probably not. But it’s an internal party problem.

  • The problem with the one-man one-vote secret ballot critique is that these are not actually elections. They are the procedures by which two private entities, the Democratic and Republican Parties, choose delegates… -AOGutierrez

    I don’t see why this precludes them being ran differently than they are now.

    Last I checked the Constitution there’s no mention of parties or the function of parties in the system. -AOGutierrez

    The Parties are still subject to several state and federal laws, despite your correct assertion that they are not mentioned in the Constitution. A lot of those state laws restrict ballot access making it nearly impossible for a party other than Democratic or Republican to be on the ballot in every state.

    So is it a defacto election? No, but you might as well consider it the playoffs.

  • Are you people listening to each other? What I hear is more us against them, red versus blue, democrat versus republican. The parties have us so at odds against each other that we miss the point. It’s like a magician’s misdirection and sleight of hand…quick, look over here! While we argue about which political party is best, or more right, or whatever, we, the people, are getting taken to the cleaners. Our government is no longer of the people, by the people, for the people. It is of the wealthy, by the special interests, for the multinational corporations and their quarterly statements We, the people, no longer matter. Go ahead, prove me wrong. I only wish you could.

  • I am watching the democratic Iowa caucus right now. This is the stupidest thing I have ever seen. Leave it to the democrats to not even be able to stand in a line to count votes.

  • By same account the american election of a president is full of fallacies. Why not vhange the whole system to one vote per person.

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