The law should probably be followed — on a case-by-case basis

John Yoo may no longer be in the Bush administration, but his arguments for letting administration officials break the law when they think they should have apparently lingered inside the Justice Department.

The Justice Department has told Congress that American intelligence operatives attempting to thwart terrorist attacks can legally use interrogation methods that might otherwise be prohibited under international law.

The legal interpretation, outlined in recent letters, sheds new light on the still-secret rules for interrogations by the Central Intelligence Agency. It shows that the administration is arguing that the boundaries for interrogations should be subject to some latitude, even under an executive order issued last summer that President Bush said meant that the C.I.A. would comply with international strictures against harsh treatment of detainees.

While the Geneva Conventions prohibit “outrages upon personal dignity,” a letter sent by the Justice Department to Congress on March 5 makes clear that the administration has not drawn a precise line in deciding which interrogation methods would violate that standard, and is reserving the right to make case-by-case judgments.

Case-by-case judgments, of course, opens the door pretty wide. It creates a legal dynamic in which interrogators can utilize illegal methods on detainees, and the administration prefers that they have a certain “flexibility” (my word, not theirs).

“The fact that an act is undertaken to prevent a threatened terrorist attack, rather than for the purpose of humiliation or abuse, would be relevant to a reasonable observer in measuring the outrageousness of the act,” said Brian A. Benczkowski, a deputy assistant attorney general, in the letter, which had not previously been made public.

In other words, “Torture for bad reasons isn’t the same thing as torture for good reasons. On the prior, the law matters. On the latter, not so much.”

Mr. Bush issued the executive order last summer to comply with restrictions imposed by the Supreme Court and Congress. The order spelled out new standards for interrogation techniques, requiring that they comply with international standards for humane treatment, but it did not identify any approved techniques.

It has been clear that the order preserved at least some of the latitude that Mr. Bush has permitted the C.I.A. in using harsher interrogation techniques than those permitted by the military or other agencies. But the new documents provide more details about how the administration intends to determine whether a specific technique would be legal, depending on the circumstances involved.

The letters from the Justice Department to Congress were provided by the staff of Senator Ron Wyden, an Oregon Democrat who is a member of the Intelligence Committee and had sought more information from the department.

Some legal experts critical of the Justice Department interpretation said the department seemed to be arguing that the prospect of thwarting a terror attack could be used to justify interrogation methods that would otherwise be illegal.

“What they are saying is that if my intent is to defend the United States rather than to humiliate you, than I have not committed an offense,” said Scott L. Silliman, who teaches national security law at Duke University.

Precisely. It’s not the conduct that matters to the administration, it’s the motivation of the torturer that counts.

Somehow, the Geneva Conventions seems to have left out this loophole. I can’t imagine why.

The road to hell is paved with good (and apparently bad) intentions.

TORTURE.ALWAYS.WRONG.PERIOD.

  • OK. It’s bad enough we are having this discussion. As anyone asked either of the Dem nominees what they would do about it? Or maybe if they will wear a flag pin while doing something about it.

  • But why not leave it just as it’s been for decades? (Certainly NOT Yoo’s scenario.)

    Continue to make ALL torture illegal with no exceptions, but If a government employee breaks the law with what s/he believes is urgent good reason, then s/he can throw him/herself on the mercy of the courts by showing the urgent information it produced. The “reasons” for the torture should not be a defense for torture, only the information the torture produced.

    By saying positively that torture may be legal under some circumstances to be determined by the courts on a case-by-case basis MAY seem to be the same thing as the scenario above, but it’s not.

    The stronger law already in place makes torture outright illegal with with no reference to “reasons” at all. So the violator must go into the courts with a vigorous defense and proofs showing that the torture produced information necessary to immediately save lives or prevent an imminent catastrophe.

    Otherwise, under Yoo’s principle, the torturer can argue to the court that torture seemed necessary, was done with “good reason”, even if it didn’t produce any information that was useful at all. Torture cannot be used as a fishing trip by a civilized nation.

    Exoneration from a conviction of torture must always depend on whether it produced information necessary for national defense/security. And that means that torture would be conducted only if the torturer KNEW the tortured person had the information.

  • Lots of laws are broken without prosecution simply because of assumed motive. A jaywalker escaping a fire would never be charged, for example. But this administration goes further by arguing that there should be exemptions for certain classes of people. The assumption seems to be that we cannot trust prosecutors or juries to find the rare exceptions. The result, however, is that MP’s at Abu Ghraib were torturing people for their own enjoyment, and punished for taking pictures and blaming higher-ups.

    Furthermore, the most frustrating thing about the Bush administration is that they act as though their Justice Department appointees are the final arbiter of the law, and no one else has a right to even know their interpretations.

  • The result, however, is that MP’s at Abu Ghraib were torturing people for their own enjoyment, and punished for taking pictures and blaming higher-ups.

    Can I ask on what planet do you live, sir? That someone with the intelligence to find this place would believe and pass on this Big Lie from Republican BizarroWorld iis beyond belief. Did you just click over here from Free Republic?

    Those soldiers at Abu Ghraib were at the bottom of the hill and the river of shit created by George Bush, Dick Cheney, Donal Rumsfeld, John Ashcroft, and Condoleeze Rice flowed down on them.

    By your logic, it was the guards at Auschwitz who were responsible for the Holocaust.

    What a maroon….

  • Danp you are so right. Torture is mostly about a power trip, anger, domination, humiliation, etc…and any information that is elicited is passed out to be run down by the government so that they can then go in front of the country and say…”WE ARE PROTECTING YOU FROM THE BAD MEN”…(sorry, everyone, I know you hate it when someone yells)…just the thought that people are discussing what aspects of enhanced interrogation (gotta luv euphimisms) are legal is disturbing, very disturbing…

    Aristedes, only one disagreement with your view, it shouldn’t just matter what information was obtained under torture as a defense…it should matter greatly what
    kind of sick-puppy techniques were used to gain the “useful” information.

  • Tom Cleaver (6): I agree with your analysis of Abu Ghraib. These people were told to do much of what they did. The point I was making is that it progressed beyond any pretense of ligitimate purpose, and then they weren’t punished because they were torturing. They were punished for letting it go public.

  • Danp & Tom Cleaver

    Part of the problem with the Abu Ghraib torturers is that many of them were contractors, not military. So they got away with it scott-free, since the US won’t prosecute them.

    In all cases, however, it was “permitted” because Bush had authorized it and word had traveled down the line.

    Nothing will set it right but the conviction of Bush, Cheney, Rice, & Rumsfeld as war criminals, and the prosecution of those who passed an illegal order on to their subordinates. The guards are last in the line.

    Tom Cleaver, your comment that one may as well hold the Auschwitz guards wholly responsible for the Holocaust as those who were prosecuted for obeying Bush’s orders is spot on. Nevertheless, the worst Nazi human rights offenders in those camps were also executed.

  • aristedes (9): The only part I disagree with you is the “in all cases, however, it was permitted…” I don’t necessarily think the pyramids or the picture taking were permitted. And one detainee was beaten to death. While it was “forgiven” (or would have been had the pictures not come out), I wouldn’t argue it was “permitted”.

    As for the Auschwitz arguments, I couldn’t agree more that higher ups should be punished. Again, all I was saying is that they didn’t EVEN punish these MP’s because of torture. They punished them for other reasons, and let the public believe they maintained a no-torture policy. Nor did they try to make an argument publicly at the time that any of these activities had been approved.

  • Danp

    And I say it WAS permitted with the full knowledge that implies because Bush had authorized it very early on through Rumsfeld’s Defense Department. It was at the same time Bush was saying that “enemy combatants” were not protected by the Geneva Conventions. If you have the fortitude, go to the ACLU site and see if you can find the memos referring to Bush’s “executive order” giving permission to torture prisoners captured in Afghanistan and particularly Iraq. Or there’s this report if you’d prefer a summary:

    http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/18769prs20041220.html

    In the ACLU documents I read discussions among the CIA and the FBI about what “standards” they ought to be using for interrogations, the old ones that prohibited torture or Bush’s new ones that authorized it. The FBI thought they couldn’t go as far as the CIA, though they often worked together or alternately on prisoners in interrogation rooms.

    http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Cheney_authorized_harsh_interrogations_0411.html

    And didn’t the first defense statements of the military personnel who were court-martialed for their part in those pictures claim they were following orders? THAT defense suddenly disappeared, but at the time, the administration was loudly claiming it was only a bunch of bad apples who acted entirely on their own. The cover-up was system, as the torture was.

    So of COURSE those suckers took the heat and the fall for the entire administration.

  • aristides(11): I read the two links you left. Unfortunately the link from the aclu one to the “documents mentioned” got me a “URL not found” page. But I’ve read most of this before, and I do not dispute any of ACLU’s allegations.

    However, one of those memos (I’m not sure if it was the Bybee memo) defined toruture using the term organ or system failure. Would you not agree that they crossed even the administration line with the dead detainee? I think if you read the articles about the trials, that was one of the main things they convicted the MPs of. The administration was also actively allowing, if not instructing them to use sexual humiliation. But at some point, at least some of these people were going beyond duty and acting for the purpose of entertainment. If you get a chance, watch Rory Kennedy’s “Ghosts of Abu Ghraib”. I’m certainly not condoning the instructions they were given, but I do believe they went even beyond them.

    And I believe that one of the problems with this case-by-case justification, is that it leads to even worse. They start out by defining “extreme interrogations” to justify torturing Kalid Mohammed and Abu Zubaida, then expand to Gitmo, then to Abu Ghraib and other Iraqi and Afghanistan detention centers, and it should not surprise us that individuals go even beyond what has been approved.

    In “The Interrogators” by Chris Mackey, the author was in Afghanistan from the early part of that war until, I believe, August 2002. During that time he and other interrogators went from following the old rules to sleep deprivation and implied threats of death. While they had not reached the levels of the Yoo/Bybee memos, they were certainly acting according to new orders. And these orders were only part of the path that the Administration began with.

    You point out that the MPs originally claimed they were just following orders. I would argue that those who dropped that argument benefitted from that decision. I think Granger and England were the only two who more or less stuck to that defense, and if I’m not mistaken they got the worst punishment.

  • I’m starting to think that “preventing terrorist attacks” is a sham motive, a smoke screen to hide the fact that what Bush INC. and many on the Right really want is to set the PRECEDENT for the unlawful detention and torture of “enemies of the state”.

  • “Torture for bad reasons isn’t the same thing as torture for good reasons. On the prior, the law matters. On the latter, not so much.”

    I wonder how the Bush administration and its allies in the Corrupt Corporatist News (CNN for short) friends would feel if we were to take the above quote—and exchange the word torture for the phrase brutally butchering Bushylvanians by the bushel?

  • If all this is so positively legal, why not do it on American soil ? Everything about this, from evidence being destroyed, to secret airplanes, to lying about it to the public repeatedly, to whisking them away on secret planes, to Ashcroft asking, ‘why in the White House?’ are all pretty damn clear indications of how ‘legal’ they really thought this business was.

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