The light at the end of the tunnel may be a train

Just yesterday, I defended Hillary Clinton and her rationale for prolonging the Democratic nominating fight. Given that her own campaign chairman recently said the race would wrap up in early June, and Clinton seemed to honoring a relative cease-fire, there was no real urgency about her withdrawing.

As Jay Jacobs, a New York superdelegate and top fundraiser for Clinton, told the NYT, “I think in the end, when South Dakota and Montana go last and have their final result, she will sit back and see whether a win can be achieved or not — and if not, she is a class act and will do the class thing and get on board with the Democratic ticket.”

By last night, Clinton had made my defense of her efforts look rather foolish. In fact, looking back, I’ve defended Clinton, more than once, when people said she was putting her own interests above those of the party and the nation.

But after seeing her tactics yesterday, I’m done defending Hillary Clinton.

A day after Senator Barack Obama gathered a majority of pledged delegates in the Democratic presidential nominating contest, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton defiantly sent out new signals Wednesday that she might take her fight for the nomination all the way to the party’s convention in August.

Mrs. Clinton stumped across South Florida, scene of the 2000 election debacle, pressing her case for including delegates from Florida and Michigan in the final delegate tally. On the trail and in interviews, she raised a new battle cry of determination, likening her struggle for these delegates to the nation’s historic struggles to free the slaves and grant women the right to vote.

I’m 35, and have been following politics for quite a while, and I’ve never been so disappointed with a politician I’ve admired and respected. Yesterday’s tactics weren’t just wrong, they were offensive. For that matter, they seem to be part of a deliberate strategy to tear Democrats apart and ensure a defeat in November.

For several weeks, I’ve appreciated the fact that Clinton considers herself the superior candidate, and has kept her campaign going in the hopes, from her perspective, of saving the party from itself. But after yesterday, it’s become impossible for me to consider Clinton’s intentions honorable. Her conduct is not that of a leader.

What’s so striking is the shamelessness of her reversal(s). When Florida and Michigan broke party rules and were punished by the DNC, Clinton not only supported the decision, she honored it and spoke publicly about those votes not counting. One of her own top strategists was responsible for making the decision in the first place. Now, Clinton is saying, “Never mind what I said and did before.”

Clinton and her campaign insisted that this was a race for delegates, as per party rules. Now, Clinton is saying, “Never mind what I said and did before.” Clinton and her campaign said the finish line was 2,025. Now, Clinton is saying, “Never mind what I said and did before.”

Instead of trying to help bring the party together — Election Day is 24 weeks away — Clinton went to Florida to argue that if Barack Obama is the Democratic nominee, his nomination will be illegitimate. And if the DNC plays by the rules Clinton used to support, it’s guilty of vote-suppression — comparable to slavery, Jim Crow, and Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe.

This is sheer madness:

She said “there’s a reason why so many have fought so hard and sacrificed so much. It’s because they knew that to be a citizen of this country is to have the right and responsibility to help shape its future. Not just to have your voice heard but to have it count. People have fought hard because they knew their vote was at stake and so was their children’s futures.

Those people, she said “refused to accept their assigned place as second-class citizens. Men and women who saw America not as it was, but as it could and should be, and committed themselves to extending the frontiers of our democracy. The abolitionists and all who fought to end slavery and ensure freedom came with the full right of citizenship. The tenacious women and a few brave men who gathered at the Seneca Falls convention back in 1848 to demand the right to vote.”

As is this:

Desperate to get attention for her cause to seat Florida and Michigan delegates, Hillary Clinton compared the plight of Zimbabweans in their recent fraudulent election to the uncounted votes of Michigan and Florida voters saying it is wrong when “people go through the motions of an election only to have them discarded and disregarded.”

“We’re seeing that right now in Zimbabwe,” Clinton explained. “Tragically, an election was held, the president lost, they refused to abide by the will of the people,” Clinton told the crowd of senior citizens at a retirement community in south Florida.

Keep in mind, of course, that Florida and Michigan are not about to host a primary or a caucus. She traveled to South Florida specifically to fan the flames, undermine the legitimacy of the process, and encourage Democrats in a swing state not to trust the party and its nominee. It’s almost as if Clinton was acting as an agent of the RNC.

Clinton is attacking Democrats for playing by party rules. Worse, she supported those rules until it became self-serving to do otherwise. And now she’s characterizing anyone who disagrees with her as being an opponent of democracy.

There is no excuse for these campaign tactics. There is no defense, there is no rationale, there is spin. It is a painful example of one individual putting ego and ambition above all, consequences be damned.

Jonathan Chait added:

It’s worth repeating: [The Democratic candidates] supported this “disenfranchisement.” … She decided to campaign to change the rules only after it became her interest to do so.

This gambit by Clinton is simply an attempt to steal the nomination. It’s obviously not going to work, because Democratic superdelegates don’t want to commit suicide. But this episode is very revealing about Clinton’s character. I try not to make moralistic characterological judgments about politicians, because all politicians compromise their ideals in the pursuit of power. There are no angels in this business. Clinton’s gambit, however, truly is breathtaking.

If she’s consciously lying, it’s a shockingly cynical move. I don’t think she’s lying. I think she’s so convinced of her own morality and historical importance that she can whip herself into a moralistic fervor to support nearly any position that might benefit her, however crass and sleazy. It’s not just that she’s convinced herself it’s okay to try to steal the nomination, she has also appropriated the most sacred legacies of liberalism for her effort to do so. She is proving herself temperamentally unfit for the presidency.

Many Dems have been waiting for a soft landing, a graceful exit, a classy wrap-up. Clinton, for reasons that I want desperately to understand, has chosen to abandon these norms and instead choose a destructive, divisive path.

She’s playing a dangerous game in which the only winner is the Republican Party.

The thing I hate most about the ambitious to a fault, say anything (no matter how racist or polarizing) to get elected tactics of the Clinton campaign is that they’ve forced me to admit that everything Republicans ever told be about them was right.

And that’s the unkindest cut of all for someone, 35 like yourself, who defended them through the 90s.

  • sad but true

    soldier on to november is the only solution but it still hurts like h*ll

  • We can begin to question the wisdom of Obama’s strategy of ignoring Clinton except to praise her for having run a good race. Maybe he should be doing the opposite: she’s running the worst kind of race. Shine the spotlight on her destructive rhetoric. Let people know that, when they see Clinton speak, it’s not as a woman with a shot at winning the nomination, but as a woman who missed her shot at the nomination and is now sowing salt in the fields.

  • I also would support a primary season and nomination process that focused attention on democratic, progressive, and liberal ideals. That would be a good thing.

    Instead, this is all about lies – shillary has an endless stream of bullsh$t – when it suits her purpose, she quotes kkkarl rove.

    In the primary, she accepts and tacitly condones rush limbaugh and his fraudulent operation chaos.

    Gratefully, even mary (haven’t seen in while), crissa, greg (haven’t seen in while) and mark pencil haven’t had the audacity to parrot shillary’s lies about democracy, civil rights, sexism, and the like.

    Behind her dishonest rhetoric is an elitist that feels entitled to POTUS and doesn’t actually care what the will of the people is.

    Most Americans know this country was not founded to be the personal fiefdom of 2 elite families: bush-clinton-bush-clinton.

    Accept it – get over it! If that’s what you want – watch NASCAR.

  • I swear I will pledge alligence to the independents if the Democrats give into her outrageous spin. I am sick of soft-spined Dems sitting back and letting this one person wreck this election. The Supers need to make a decision now and make a statement that they will not stand for this ridiculous postering that is sending us spiraling down a path of self-destruction.

    I know, I know – if she gets the nomination, we are supposed to vote for her, but that will be the hardest thing I will ever have to do in my lifetime, bar none.

  • That’s the mistake you made by admiring and respecting her in the first place.

  • The Carpetbagger: But after seeing her tactics yesterday, I’m done defending Hillary Clinton.

    You’ve done an extraordinary job of being fair to her.
    In fact I’ve been amazed at your ability to balance in this wind-storm of a primary.

    But I knew this day was coming…

    You are too much a progressive, and upholder of core democratic party values, to continue to defend the cancer that is Clinton.

  • In the past week we have seen Barack Obama and John McCain seriously engage each other over foreign policy. with two wars raging (one disastrously ill-conceieved and neither going well) this is a vital issue people need to consider in making their choice in November. Also this week, we have learned Syria and Israel have been in serious negotiations, apparently without the knowledged of the U.S. That sheds some important light on the vast differences between Obama and McCain in how they see our foreign policy.

    What have we heard from Hillary Clinton? A sustained tantrum. She is not addressing issues, she is not presenting herself as a viable leader, she is presenting herself as a vindictive, self-absorbed, egotistical, destructive, immature hack. Hers is no longer a political campaign. Its a toxic excersize in vengefull vanity. It speaks volumes of her character. A big part of the blame must go to the breathless and fawning media who are all to happy to inflate this circus far past the point of its real importance. She lost, she won’t be the nominee. Its time to ignore her.

    Many have speculated that the Clinton tactic is to fatally damage Obama and set Hillary clinton up for 2012. There won’t be a 2012 for her…or any other Presidential opportunity. She has comitted career suicide. She will be a pariah to the Deomcratic party.

    Its time for Pelosi, Reid, Gore, Dean and Emmanuel to publicly come out in support of Barack Obama and end this side show.

    If Hillary Clinton succeeds in causing a Democratic defeat to John McCain (and probably congressional losses as well) she will be remembered as one of the most reviled figures in American politics. Maybe she and her vindictive core of supporters will take some measure of satisfaction in that, but that will be a shamefull and repulsive legacy for all of them.

  • The worst part is, that because she’s such a demagogue with an unwavering group of resentment-filled supporters, her threat to the party won’t even be over in November. I don’t know how many times I’m going to have to say this, but here I go again: she’s our Nixon.

  • It appears some of the charges leveled against the Clintons by the Repukes are true. Who’da thunk it?

  • I think Obama is doing the right thing in ignoring her. Dean, Reid, Pelosi, Gore and everyone else who has remained on the fence out of deference to the Clintons are the ones who were thrown under the bus by this new attack on the Democratic party. They should forget waiting until May 31st or June 3rd. Clinton has declared war on them and it’s time to put her campaign out of it’s misery by coming out in support of Obama. It would also be a nice coupe de grace if a few hundred of her declared superdelegates would switch sides in disgust. This is not how Democrats campaign, and Hillary needs to be called on it.quickly.

  • Hillary has done repeated shape shifts. In a few days she’ll be back to the sweet gracious person she was a few days ago. What boggles my mind is why she has any credibility. Does the MSM really have so much power of persuasion that even the most shallow cynicism is dismissed?

    Obama draws huge crowds. Hillary says they’re cultists.
    Obama draws educated voters. Hillary says he’s elitist.
    He gives great speeches about process, which is the crux of the problem. Hillary dismisses it as “just words”.
    Hillary draws what she knows is temporary support from her political enemies (Limbaugh, Rove, Scaife, etc.), and then says that hard working white people like her (as though the only hard working people are in Appalachia.

    She lost my respect after the Nevada caucuses – particularly with the memo that said, “It’s not illegal unless they say so”. She was referring to inexperienced district precint leaders.

  • An excellent, thoughtful post, Steve, and it means a great deal because you have bent over backwards to give Clinton’s motivations the benefit of the doubt throughout this process.

    I would only add one thing: If Clinton gets everything she wants–if she succeeds in getting Michigan and Florida seated as is and in failing to recognize the results of Iowa, Washington, Maine and Nevada–she will still be less than 1 percent ahead in the popular vote. And that’s assuming that the superdelegates will suddenly decide en masse to disregard the stated measure of this race, delegates, to embrace this new ridiculous measure. That’s not going to happen.

    She cannot win.

    She cannot win.

    She cannot win.

    And so there is no reason to do what she’s doing other than to destroy the nominee’s legitimacy and damage the chances of the Democratic Party, from president on down to city councilman, in November.

    It’s beneath contempt.

  • I’m 62, and have been following politics for quite a while, and I’ve never been so disappointed with a politician I’ve admired and respected.

  • you all just hate her because you’re a bunch of typical men who can’t deal with a woman in charge, and self-hating women bowled over and seduced by a smooth-talking piece of forbidden fruit.

    OK, I’m just kidding, but you know that’s what Clinton supporters think.

  • Welcome to the club. We’ve been singing this tune for months. Whoever said she is our nixon is correct.

  • Yesterday, Rachel Maddow laid out a scenario where Sen. Clinton takes the fight all the way to the convention.

    The party rules committee meets on May 31 to decide what to do about the Michigan and Florida delegations. If the committee cannot come to a decision, or if one of the remaining candidates appeals the committee’s decision, then the issue will have to be decided at the Democratic convention in Denver.

    If Clinton rejects every reasonable compromise or appeals the decision, we’ll know she intends to have a floor fight at the convention. That will almost certainly result in a bitterly divided party and a McCain presiidency.

    But even if the nomination process is completely amicable, McCain will still probably win. The Democratic convention will be held the last week of August. The following week, the entire media will focus exclusively on the Republican convention. The only way Barack Obama will be mentioned by the corporate-controlled media that week is if Jeremiah Wright speaks publically again. So the Democratic nominee’s campaign won’t begin until the second week of September, leaving less than eight weeks before the election.

    It is looking more and more like Sen. Clinton has decided that if she doesn’t get to run for president, then no Democrat will have a chance. The only way to stop this train wreck is for the superdelegates to get off the fence and endorse Obama — before May 31. That way Obama will have enough delegates that the nomination will be sewn up, and he can give Clinton anything she want at the rules committee meeting.

  • Isn’t it time for the WORLD to recognize the Clintons to be lying, conniving,
    self serving and devious, power hungry evil human beings who do not have the
    slightest idea of what it means to serve the nation.I am from Venezuela and I
    see little difference between Chavez and Clintons with regard to integrity

  • One thing that keeps coming back to me when thinking about Hillary’s campaign death throws is the Kubler-Ross Model of the Five Stages of Grief.

    The stages are in this order:

    * Denial – I can’t lose! I am soooo much better than Obama.
    * Anger – Shame on you. Shame on you Barack Obama!
    * Bargaining – Who needs the black vote, anyway. I can still win every important state left big time…. also Michigan! & Florida!
    * Depression – I am dooooomed. Obama or McCain be President.
    * Acceptance – oh well, hopefully there’s still 2012, let’s see if I can make it happen.

  • Timpanist (10) It appears some of the charges leveled against the Clintons by the Repukes are true. Who’da thunk it?

    That’s a pretty broad statement. Frankly I don’t see many similarities between how the Clintons are acting now vs what they were accused of in the ’90’s. I’d say it’s more like she moved over to their side by adopting their code of ethics. What is most surprising is that she surely knows that that MSM (and right wing) support she gets is only temporary. It seems very short sighted.

  • The parties include Democratic, Republican, independent, Green, socialist and Clinton

    The Clintons continue to prove Hillery is not presidential material.
    The Clinton’s were unable to mange millions of dollars for this campaign
    The Clinton’s do not belive in Americans
    The Clinton’s contine to use Republican Rhetoric for campaign slogans and bashing.

    The Clintons refuse to realize Americans did not vote her the most popular.
    The Clintons would rather destroy the Democratic party than admit America does not want her incompetence in the White House.

  • Thanks for all your efforts to be fair and to give her the benefit of the doubt, Steve.

    I unfortunately came to the same conclusion that you have now right around South Carolina. I read your columns and hoped I was wrong, but this is really the way she’s decided to run her campaign. Sad.

  • Sadly I’m reminded of Willie Shakespeare who once (sort of) wrote:

    “Hell hath no fury like a(n ambitious) woman scorned.”

    I read somewhere that some Dem leaders told her that 2004 wasn’t her “turn” and she waited for the “good” of the party. Now in 2008, it was supposed to be her “turn” and now she’s not going to get it, ever. This campaign highlighted her character flaws and exposed the campaign as the farce it was. How the hell was she going to win with the bunch of hand picked (!) imbeciles she had working for her? Ready for Day one? Not ready, at all. Sorry Hils, in the final analysis, you were your campaign’s worst enemy.

  • If the Dems don’t jump off the fence now for Obama, we’ll all be seeing red (states) come November. AAAUUUUGGGHGGHH!!!!! (banging head on desk)

  • I’m 55, and have been following politics for quite a while, and I’ve never been so disappointed with a politician I’ve admired and respected.

    One other area where she’s wrong is comparing my state’s Democratic primary to 2000. Speaking as a person who was denied the right to vote by the Republicans actions prior to the elections (BTW, an act that makes me hope for the total destruction of the Republican party) she talks about votes not counted. In 2000 it was not votes not counted, it was people denied the right to vote. Yes, there were other crimes committed in that election, too. But the comaarison is wrong because there was a vote held for the Democratic candidate. And my prediction is that all delegates will be seated.

    I don’t know if any of Florida’s supers were part of the clusterf**k vote to defy the party rules. If there were, these are the delegates from Florida that should not be seated. They were played by the Republican legislative majority, and the Dems Florida “leadership” is in dire need of replacement.

  • Though I am now a fervent Obama supporter (Hillary’s patronising 3am ad finished her off for me) I totally agree with these comments,but I think some of this is more human,and thus more understandable than sheer naked ambition,

    Don’t forget she’s surrounded by people telling her she’s right,by women telling her this is a just cause-it is very easy to get carried along by that.
    It must be excuciating to know she threw it all away but and I think her subconscious is probably framing this into some underdog,martyr-for-women scenario because that will allow her some self-respect in defeat.

    Just supposition,but I can imagine doing that if I was in her situation
    Christina

  • She is a top class politican looking to become president, of course she has an ego…..you need an ego to get that job. Obama has one too…..so did all former presidents. Americia would do well to have someone with her conviction at the top (or Obama for that matter, I am not for or against either).

    Article author, making excuses not to support her anymore is just a way for you to start supporting Obama and make it sound legitimate – a weakness on you behalf.

    And she did run a fantastic campaign. In fact they both ran fantastic campaigns in the face of racial and gender tensions…..well done Clinton, well done Obama…..

  • Poor ol’ Trolls.

    I can’t tell if some wingnut is posting the troll material for laughs. Or maybe the poster is a delusional Clintonista dead ender.

  • It seems obvious that the neocons have 2 candidates and will use them to make sure the 1 person who may not cave to their wishes be defeated.

  • My big fear, triggered by a LTE in today’s NYTimes and ratified by raving trolls like the above is that she’s setting up for a run as a 3rd party independent, analogous the Lieberman for Lieberman party. Think she’s sleazy enough for that?

  • I see that the penny-a-word trolls have arrived and are trying to earn their keep.

  • Bravo – you can copy and past (#25-27). Here’s a thought – GET YOUR OWN IDEAS AND POST THEM IN INSTEAD OF REPEATING BLATANT, FALSE, DISPROVEN LIES. It’s the parroting affect all repugs are programmed to use because they lost the ability to think for themselves in the 90’s.

  • I spent the late 90s working for a progressive org in DC where I researched and reported on every right-wing attack on the Clintons. From Whitewater to Travelgate to Lincolnbedroomgate to Vince Foster to Troopergate and Paula Jones/Monica and many others I’m trying to forget. Day in and day out I read all of the right’s vitriol, much of it based on who they were in Arkansas, and discounted nearly ALL of it.

    In the 90s much of the right-wing put forth the idea that the Clintons were power-hungry, phony and destructive and more or less EVIL. Ultimately they held that the Clintons believe that they are above the law and are accountable to no one. From where I sat there most certainly was a Vast Right Wing Conspiracy to take them down– I knew it too well. And man, did they HATE Hillary. They were talking about her running for POTUS since 1998– it was a the BEST fund-raising tool for them.

    I had mixed feelings about the Clintons when Bill was in office. While I didn’t believe any of the right-wing hype I was still a little bitter about things like DOMA and Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. Also there was the whole “FOB” (Friends of Bill) phenomena that was pretty hard to ignore around DC.

    Impeachment were some pretty dark days as well. By the time they both left the White House– and Gore more or less campaigned away from them due to Clinton fatigue– they were somewhat damaged goods.

    But now? I started off this year as Hillary supporter, I saw Obama as impressive but a little too green and untested. For a while I thought the Clintons were blindly playing into every negative stereotype spun about them in the late 90s. Then Hillary sat down with Dick Scaife– the moneybags behind most of the VRWC– and I lost all respect for her then.

    Now I’m very saddened by the fact that the Right was actually right– not about everything but they seemed to have a pretty good sense of the essense of what the Clintons are about. Now it looks like Hillary is going to fight just for the sake of fighting because fighters NEVER stop fighting. She completely believes her own hype. It’s as sad as it is infuriating.

    She needs to stop. She needs to be stopped. This is bigger than POTUS– this is about our direction as a country and in the world at large.

  • The biggest Superdelegate that Obama needs right now is Al Gore. If Gore would speak up, get off the fence, and appear at a big Obama rally in FLORIDA, this whole Hillary problem could easily be pushed aside.

  • Steve T: Don’t let’s forget Hon. Rep. Ron Paul and the very real possibility of the GOP convention being less than the smooth coronation of years past.

    The real kicker with Hon. Sen. Clinton’s jeremiad on disenfranchisement is not only that she rejects any form of compromise that would seat these states’ delegates, and do so in a way that would attempt to provide a remedy to those who assumed that rules which she endorsed (however flawed) would be followed; she simultaneously blames Hon. Sen. Obama for wishing to come to a such a compromise, and brands him as an obstructionist for pointing out that these results were largely illegitimate in the first place. So, it’s an affront to democracy unless a process she admitted was flawed is preserved. On top of this, instead of using the opportunity to advocate for an improved primary process, she notes that if we had followed the GOP procedure, she might have done better.

    By the way, the GOP actually seem to be ahead of the Dems in proposing more sanity in this process.

  • President Obama A Victory For Islam said:
    President Obama A Victory For Islam

    This is what the national campaign is going to look like. This is why we need to wrap up the primary NOW.

    To POAVFI — you’re probably right. Keeping a senile, saber-rattling buffoon who’s a “foreign policy expert” but who somehow doesn’t know the difference between Sunni and Shi’a from having the ability to drag the United States into even more wars with Muslim countries is a victory for Islam. It’s also a victory for the U.S. and for the stability of the rest of the world.

    By the way POAVFI, can you tell us the difference between Sunni and Shi’a — without looking it up in Wikipedia? Go ahead, dazzle us with your academic brilliance.

  • WRITE THE UNDECIDED SUPERDELEGATES!

    A list of uncommitteds can be found: http://demconwatch.blogspot.com/2008/01/superdelegates-who-havent-endorsed.html

    I spent an hour this morning writing to every uncommitted superdelegate in Congress. It is easy to find their email. Just Google “contact” and “name”. You come right to their contact page.

    I wrote:

    Please save the Democratic Party and come out immediately with an endorsement of Sen. Obama. Sen Clinton’s tactics are destroying the party and will lead to a McCain victory in November. Please. Your leadership is urgently needed NOW.

    If everyone does it, maybe it will have some effect.

  • Indeed. But they do have that Republican tone and disregard for the truth, don’t they.

  • I would blame the media as well. Just think: Instead of claiming ad nauseum that Obama has a “white working class voter problem”, they should point out Hillary’s false claims: that yes, Michigan’s voters should be honored, by NOT counting the Soviet-style primary that they had.

  • DrBB

    My big fear, triggered by a LTE in today’s NYTimes and ratified by raving trolls like the above is that she’s setting up for a run as a 3rd party independent, analogous the Lieberman for Lieberman party. Think she’s sleazy enough for that?

    Nothing she might do would surprise me. But where would she get the money to campaign under an Independent ticket? I read she’s now in debt to the tune of $30M for her democratic campaign. Who besides her rabid bitter non-independent “working class” white American women would donate any more money to her? Her big donors are maxed out — can they start from scratch if she were to change parties? And isn’t there a deadline for filing for a presidency run?

  • slideguy – I take it you haven’t visited Larry Johnson House of Krazy, lately.

    Now you got serious Clintonites willing to fight till the last dog dies over there. They are wingnut style hardcore dead enders.

  • So if things do play out as they seem to, what’s the best move? I mean, if Clinton decides that, come hell or high water, she is going to take this to the floor of the convention, a scenario which would absolutely ensure Democratic defeat in November, what can we do about it? The idea of the Supers stepping in now en masse seems both unlikely to happen or to work.

    As much as it pains me to say it, maybe the thing to do at this stage is to let her have her way. Let her have her phyrric victory . Maybe she wins in which case we are at least spared 8 years of that idiot McCain. Much more likely she loses because a very large percentage of Democratic voters will see her nomination as illegitimate. But at least then the party has some chance of remaining intact and we will finally be done with the Clintons and their bullshit forever (never thought I would be saying something like that about people I used to respect).

    My point is, I don’t think Obama can possibly win with the Clintons dragging him down by the neck. If he wants to be President someday, maybe his best move is not to go forward when his opponent has so successfully managed to poison the well. Graciously step aside for the good of the party. Keep building his rep as a Senator or somewhere else building support for progressive causes and the Party. Let the baby have her bottle so she can crash and burn out and then try to clean up the mess President McCain will have made by running again in 2012. Just a suggestion.

  • What a disgrace, Zimbabwe is more serious of a matter

    1. With mass torture and violence against its citizens and about every human rights violation going on is a serious issue

    2. So called free and fair elections controlled by his government, i.e. press, even election officials and ghost votes

    3. Trying to get an ARMS ship from china to “defend” themselves when there is no anti-government groups because of fear, freedom of speech, no gatherings of people are allowed or be considered of plotting against the government.

    4. Fleeing the country because no jobs, food, water and money absolutely worthless

    5. Just this past week SA – Anti-immigrant violence has gripped the Johannesburg area for the past 10 days, with more than 40 killed and 16,000 displaced.
    (Many Zimbabweans because the were willing to work for any amount of money- either to send home or just to plain live)

    Clinton stop now!
    There is a whole lot more to all these stories, more than I can express…. By the way my dad is Zimbabwean, He is mixed like Obama so he has Western an African influences and right now you have just offended my whole family, even my mother who by the way is white is offended but she gets it more then you do!
    (Excuse sp or grammar error typing fast and very angry)

  • Brent – I respectfully dissagree. While I think your response was thoughtful, I do not think that Hilary has a chance in hell to win the nomination in November. She has and continues to alienate both democrats and independents with her Rebugnitan talking points and her ‘unfair to me’ accusations. Time and time again I see more and more people defecting from her. Voting for her would be like voting for Karl Rove in my opinion. I simply don’t think she can win.

  • As someone above said: “Hers is no longer a political campaign. Its a toxic excersize in vengefull vanity.”

    Perfect. Early on I decided that if this nasty, shrill woman got the nomination I wouldn’t, under any circumstance, cast a vote for her. Persuasion from my mother, sister and other seemingly level-headed women who blindly overlook Hillary’s numerous glaring faults tempered this notion slightly, but given this candidate’s cluelessness and self-serving tirades leads me to conclude that she has no interest in the Democratic Party, only in securing the nomination.

    Enough. Superdelegates and the DNC need to end this. NOW.

  • A few weeks ago, I would have agreed with Brent’s position. Hillary seemed to have damaged Obama beyond repair, at least for this election cycle, and I was ready for the party to fall on its sword and nominate Hillary, with Obama saving his political capitol for 2012. The fact that Obama regained his momentum, got back on message, and turned his eye toward the general election with a fighting spirit that we haven’t seen for a long time in a Democratic presidential candidate, proved to me that he is very much still in the game and can win in November . . . and that Hillary needs to get the hell out.

    Furthermore, Hillary’s whinging self-pity act is embarrassing. It makes all of us women look bad!

  • She’s held her “nuclear option” in reserve for several weeks now, and it looks like she’s about ready to play it.

    Then, there’s also talk of “demonstrations” at the Rules Committee meeting on the 31st.

    But here’s the question that everyone should be asking themselves—and they should be asking it right now. How in Hades is this crazy person supposed to run a general-election campaign when she’s so deeply in debt? She’s left a trail of debts a mile long in some states; there are businesses—small, family-owned-and-operated businesses, no less—right here in Ohio that she still hasn’t paid, and those debts are about 2 1/2 months old. Is she going to expect people to work for her again—and not get paid again?

    How does she get out of debt? The answer is—she can’t. She’s like Hitler in the final weeks of the Third Reich—ranting madly about “miracle super-weapons” that never materialized. But her “final delusion” will be a demand that all the people she marginalized; all the voters she declared “irrelevant;” all the states she insulted because they weren’t doing things her way—pay her debts and fund her “inevitable” march to victory in November.

    There will be no miracle for Clinton. She’s already in “bunker mentality” mode, and her final humiliation must come from either Obama—or McCain.

    Personally, I’d much rather prefer the former. If she continues this course of incredible madness, however, the only alternative will—unfortunately, for all of America and the world, for that matter—be the latter….

  • “Let the baby have her bottle so she can crash and burn out and then try to clean up the mess President McCain will have made by running again in 2012. Just a suggestion.”

    The problem isn’t really McCain. I think he’s a Trojan Horse. If he won, I doubt he’d serve more than one term, and he’d probably step aside late in his first term and let his VP take over…setting up the Republicans’ real choice for eight years. The danger about John McCain is that he isn’t George Bush. He can still somehow manage his reputation as a “maveric” and people do like him. He could heal alot of the Republicans’ image problems while maintaining the Bush era disasters.

    Hillary clinton destroying the Democrats’ chances in November would have catasrophic consequences far beyond four years of John MCain. It could very well resusitate the Republican Party at the same time leaving the Democratic Party shattered for years to come.

  • Did it ever occur to you Obamabots that Hillary Clinton is desperately trying to save the Democratic Party. Older Democrats seem to recognize this and are not taken in by Obama facism.

  • zoe kentucky #38: “Now I’m very saddened by the fact that the Right was actually right– not about everything but they seemed to have a pretty good sense of the essense of what the Clintons are about.”

    Stopped clocks, and all that.

  • Clinton’s speech yesterday was destructive to the party as a whole and party leaders need to let her know that it will not be tolerated by someone who aspires to leadership herself. Hillary is becoming another Lieberman/Zell Miller and needs to be called on these self-serving, hypocritical and anti-Democratic statements.

    In fact, if he has any party loyalty, it’s time for Al Gore to step up and squash this “disenfranchising FL/MI is the same as 2000” meme before it undermines the legitimacy of the probable Democratic nominee. He has the unique ability to address this and nip it in the bud. Let’s see if he’ll be up to the challenge.

  • Tim

    Did it ever occur to you Obamabots that Hillary Clinton is desperately trying to save the Democratic Party. Older Democrats seem to recognize this and are not taken in by Obama facism.

    Well, no, that hasn’t “occurred” to Obama supporters. Nothing much “occurs” to me except to conclude that Hillary is a political bully on a destructive rampage.

  • Tim – nice try. I personally give more credit to the democratic party than you. We are independent thinkers – yes, even Hilary supporters – who are not blinded by the ridiculous, mindless, hate filled, self-centered republican creed. So, while your entilted to your opinions, please do us a favor an quit lumping everyone who is supportive of Obama as a non-thinking robots. If your candidate wins, you’ll need everyone of us idiots to support her. And, Hilary is not saving any one – especially the Dems.

  • Hillary clinton destroying the Democrats’ chances in November would have catasrophic consequences far beyond four years of John MCain. It could very well resusitate the Republican Party at the same time leaving the Democratic Party shattered for years to come.

    Maybe you are right. But again, what’s the alternative at this stage? Dragging this thing out in the ugliest possible way is essentially her prerogative. There is really nothing to stop her from doing so besides her own conscience or giving her what she wants. And if she does so, the Democratic nominee will lose. Make no mistake about it. I, for one, no longer feel comfortable counting on her conscience. So what options do we really have?

  • If she’s consciously lying, it’s a shockingly cynical move. I don’t think she’s lying. I think she’s so convinced of her own morality and historical importance that she can whip herself into a moralistic fervor to support nearly any position that might benefit her, however crass and sleazy.

    For the record, she’s consciously lying.

    Same as she did when she signed the Four State Pledge. Same as she did when she blamed Obama for whipping up the story in the media for her MLK/LBJ comment. Same as she did when she claimed that Obama said Republicans had better ideas. Same as she did when told the voters of OH and TX that Obama backtracked on NAFTA with the Canadians–even after the story had been debunked. Same as she did when she claimed to be critical to the peace effort in Ireland. Same as she did when she claimed to be a long time critic of NAFTA. Same as she did when she claimed to run across the tarmac in Bosnia to avoid sniper fire. Same as she did when she claimed to be crucial to getting S-CHIP passed. Same as she did when she claimed to be leading in the popular vote.

    Senator Clinton has no morals. She lies and lies and lies and lies and lies and lies and thinks nothing of it.

    Honesty is a progressive value. Dishonesty is a Republican value. You can’t be a Democrat and support this bullshit. She’s an embarrassment.

  • Furthermore, Hillary’s whinging self-pity act is embarrassing. It makes all of us women look bad!

    No, it doesn’t. Please don’t buy into the notion that Hillary’s failures are reflective of anyone but herself. We are more than half the population. One of us does not represent all of us any more than George Bush represents all men, Louis Farrakhan represents all black people, or Larry Craig represents all gays and lesbians.

    The party rules committee meets on May 31 to decide what to do about the Michigan and Florida delegations. If the committee cannot come to a decision, or if one of the remaining candidates appeals the committee’s decision, then the issue will have to be decided at the Democratic convention in Denver.

    As the presumptive nominee, Obama controls the Credentials Committee, which will deliver the final smackdown to Clinton if she refuses, as she’s threatening to do, to accept any Rules & Bylaws Committee decision that doesn’t give her everything she wants. All along, I’ve been under the impression that the Credentials Committee doesn’t meet until the convention. But in the last day or so, I’ve seen a few references to it meeting in late June. Anybody know?

  • Brent – she’s already drug this thing out in the ugliest possible way. That’s my point. And, no one motivates a group of angry republicans more than the Clintons. My hunch is disenfranchised dems, independents, and repugs will give the white house to McCain if she is the nominee.

    And she can be stopped. The democratic leadership needs to step in and make sure she is side-lined. They have the means to do so.

  • Hillary is winning many of the these latter campaigns because Obama has gone into general election mode (and partly due to Rush Limbaugh). She may win popular votes (even with a legitimate counting method), but those aren’t the rules. She needs to win the most delegates, and if she can somehow convince superdelegates to change their minds, so be it. I find that incredibly unlikely, but that’s how it is.

    As for Tim – how exactly is she “saving” the Democratic party? Saying “Obama facism (sic)” doesn’t really make any sense … do you wish to explain?

  • Well said, Steve. I know how hard this must have been for you to write, given your avowed neutrality and the respect that all of us had for Clinton until recently. It’s been unsettling to get a glimpse of her true character over the past couple of months, but I’m glad you’ve given up twisting yourself into rhetorical knots trying to defend her increasingly outrageous behavior.

  • But here’s the question that everyone should be asking themselves—and they should be asking it right now. How in Hades is this crazy person supposed to run a general-election campaign when she’s so deeply in debt?

    Redirecting this to the three months before the convention, rather than the unthinkable prospect of her actually being the nominee: My husband is of the mind that lack of money, and the inability to raise more, will finally draw the Clinton runaway train of pain to a belching halt.

    I’m not so sure. Once she gets past the primaries, she can count on a willing media’s free coverage all summer as she lies her way across the TV programming spectrum, and it doesn’t cost much to stalk superdelegates (although defending herself against the probable restraining orders might require a legal retainer). My husband seems to think that she’ll need to run TV spots to stay in. I’m not sure.

  • Tim: “Did it ever occur to you Obamabots that Hillary Clinton is desperately trying to save the Democratic Party.”

    Save the Dem Party? From what? You think Hilary is the savior of the Democratic Party? Wow. What happened to the “dumb Obamabots keep treating him as the messiah” meme?

  • Husband corrects me on #65: “It’s not so much the TV spots as this: she’ll have to keep the campaign plane gassed up and travel hither and yon holding rallies to create the illusion of momentum. Plus, she has to continue to pay the campaign staff.”

    He’s got a point!

  • Could it be that Hillary is cultivating her sense of victimhood by this behaviour. She wants to be attacked; its better than being ignored. Between enduring Bill’s disgraceful actions and the vicious attacks of the right in the 90s, could it be that she developed some sort of stress disorder? It won’t be long before she has split the Democratic party or become a total pariah.

  • Somebody needs to get the Clinton people to sit down and tell us what the hell they think is about to happen.

    Not Hillary, her people.

    Their political careers are at stake. Hers is pretty much over now, but they need to think about how their careers will look after backing someone who compares the Democratic nominee to a brutal dictator.

  • And she can be stopped. The democratic leadership needs to step in and make sure she is side-lined. They have the means to do so.

    Sure they do. But will they? That is the issue. Part of what HRC is doing right now is putting political pressure on them not to force the issue. She is essentially holding the party hostage with a large block of intransigent supporters. If the leadership pushes the matter by say deciding on a compromise on FL/MI that is not to her liking, she is going to try to hold her voters against them and its an effective gambit. She still has a lot of support out there and they interpret any move against her, irrespective of what she is doing, as some sort of personal attack.

    I hope they do step in and I hope that whatever action they take does not come back to bite Obama. I hope he can win despite what she has done to make that difficult. I do. I am just not as optimistic on the possibility as I used to be and I am starting to think that I would rather she run and take her own chances drinking from the well she has poisoned. Haven’t made up my mind yet though.

  • My 62 year old mother who has never voted for a Democrat voted for Obama in the Ohio primary. It’s funny, my mother with her deep seeded and in my opinion unfounded Clinton hate, kept making these scary predictions about Hillary, even after she started playing nice, that she would take this to the convention over Florida and Michigan. She believes she has something up her sleeve- some awful revelation to unveil in the 11th hour. I thought that sounded a bit ridiculous, but now it appears like Clinton WILL do anything to steal the nomination. I stuck up for Clinton as a loyal Democrat, no she wouldn’t do that; she cares about this country. I was wrong.

  • Older Democrats seem to recognize this and are not taken in by Obama facism.
    Timmie Tantrum @ 54

    Well, now…this “older Democrat” (who will be 53 in November, by the way) is old enough to remember how “Billy-J” (J for Judas, by the way) threw the entire progressive agenda of the Democratic Party (the same Democratic Party we’re discussing in this thread, by the way) under the bus in order to “cozy up” to his “new friends” in the “Contract with America” Congress.

    And if a fascist hench-poodle (government/corporate shill lemming) is going to call someone a fascist, then he/she/it ought at least to learn how the blasted word is spelled.

  • Like Coach Hambone says, “Adversity doesn’t build character, it reveals it.”

  • Yes, the resemblance between Florida and Zimbabwe is indeed striking. I hear the Florida dollar is losing worth at the rate of 66000% inflation per year, that farms are being seized by militias, armed thugs are beating and killing political opponents, that people are fleeing across the border to survive, and, of course, that shipments of arms from China have arrived to help people vote the “proper” way. Yes, indeed, the likeness is striking, I am amazed that the media has failed totally to cover this ongoing humanitarian disaster. How wonderful it is to know that one brave soul dares to speak out. By the way, Senator Clinton, I am slightly unclear on one point – who is Florida’s Mugabe? I am assuming there must be a frightening black man you have in mind. Would you mind spelling out who this person is? Oh, and more photographs of the destruction of Florida would help….Just a request….

  • On May 22nd, 2008 at 9:34 am, Buffalonian said: WRITE THE UNDECIDED SUPERDELEGATES! A list of uncommitteds can be found: http://demconwatch.blogspot.com/2008/01/superdelegates-who-havent-endorsed.html
    This is a great idea, and I think we — and by we I mean all who support a Democratic Party in opposition to Republicans, whether we would favor Clinton, Obama or someone else as our candidate — should take it one step further: write all the delegates and superdelegates who are already decided and pledged for Clinton to tell them to switch their votes to Obama, given the self-serving destructiveness and dishonesty of her campaign’s continuation (not to mention her totally offensive comparison of the battle for FL and MI delegates with the violent electoral fraud in Zimbabwe and with anti-slavery and women’s rights struggles in this country’s history). If someone who knows how to set up an on-line petition, all the better. If Clinton wants to continue this fight — and it seems like she will even if Obama snares enough support so as to make the fate of the FL and MI delegates moot — it is best for Democrats if she continues to fight with as little support as possible, so that the destruction is more of herself and the most power-hungry of her supporters and less of ourselves.

  • I have thought for weeks now that her behavior concerning Florida and Michigan was a deliberate attempt to set up Obama for a loss in November so that she could say ‘I told you so,’ and run again in 2012. Nothing she’s done has swayed me of this opinion.

    I hope she’s expecting a well funded primary challenger in New York, and any super delegates still supporting her as she continues her maddening descent into the party of one should expect the same. It’s time we stand up and take back the Democratic party.

    Great post, Steve. I’m sorry it had to come to this.

  • I was also in the same boat as Steve. I would actually defend the Senator, because I do legimately feel she is an individual worthy of respect. But the lengths to which she seems willing to go. The illogical grasps she seems willing to make, are absolutely shocking. I understand that intellectually all (most) politicians are raving egomaniacs, but the hubris on display here is just shocking. It increasingly proves to me at least, that those who covet power the most, should be denied that at all costs.

    That being said, I am done.

    Sexism and racism both have permeated this election. To claim now that all her problems are due to that, is amazingly crass. I am sure it played a hand, but to say it is the overriding issue or that it has been more of a drag on her then Senator Obama’s race or name has been on him is laughable. The simple truth is, at that beginning it was her’s to lose and a determined opponent, simple out maneuvered, out hustled, and out organized her. There is no shame in that. The shame comes from the tantrum afterwards.

  • My prediction:

    Given that Obama has indicated that he will compromise on this issue (in fact, the only fair way to seat the delegates is to split them 50/50). I suspect that this means that he is likely to agree to either seat half the MI/FL delegates based on the “election results” or seat all of the MI/FL delegates based on the “election results”, but to give them half a vote. This compromise should give the Michigan uncommitted delegates to Obama.

    Now, remember that Obama has indicated that he would meet her “more than halfway”. That might mean that he would agree to the above distribution, yet won’t even demand the uncommitted delegates.

    Any of these compromises benefits cheaters (those who violated the Four State Pledge) and hurts those who played by the rules. Yet, Clinton is likely to reject them. If the Rules and Bylaws Committee does anything less than seating the full MI/FL delegations with full voting rights, she’s taking it to the Credentials Committee, and if she doesn’t get what she wants there, she’s taking it to the floor.

    In short…she’s going to keep campaigning for Hillary Clinton as long as the rules allow…the party, the country and the world be damned.

  • Joe Lieberman, too, thought of himself as trying to “save the Dem party from itself”. It’s a rationale that reeks of overambition and arrogance. Make your case, play by the rules, if you lose, you lose. Take your lumps this round and give it your best shot in the next one. If the “next one” isn’t realistic, welcome to life. You’re not special.

  • Joe Lieberman, too, thought of himself as trying to “save the Dem party from itself”. -DKE

    Excellent observation.

  • Let’s all calm down.

    If Clinton does the right thing and rallies behind Obama then the past will be forgotten.

    Look at all the people who thought McCain would kill the Republicans and are now huge McCain supporters.

    The only way the Democrats can lose this year is if we split apart.

    Yes, Clinton has the power to destroy Obama’s chances. But let her have a few more weeks and then look at what has happened.

    Right now, I can’t figure out what Clinton is trying to do. If she causes Obama to lose then she is a far worse Democrat than Lieberman is. If Clinton doesn’t come around early next month then I will be as mad as you are. Until then I think we should all calm down.

  • She believes she has something up her sleeve- some awful revelation to unveil in the 11th hour.

    I’m with your Mom, Erin.

    My gut tells me this posturing is a ruse designed to mask something even more sinister. I sure hope I’m wrong.

  • And, no one motivates a group of angry republicans more than the Clintons. My hunch is disenfranchised dems, independents, and repugs will give the white house to McCain if she is the nominee.

    I think you may misunderstand me. I am not arguing that she will beat McCain. In fact, quite the opposite, I think that if she wins the nomination this way, she will be very likely to lose . But if she continues to deliberately delegitimize Obama’s nomination, so will he. I think it is better for her to run and lose than it will be for him to run and lose. In the latter case, at least we will be done with this sort of crap from the Clintons forever and the party has at least some chance of reuniting. In the former, we would have to endure her crowing that she told us so and perhaps an unhealable rift in the party and another Clinton run in 2012. Either way, we will have to endure at least 4 years of McCain but hey… lemons, lemonade right?

  • Others have linked to the Four State Pledge that Hillary Clinton signed. She clearly violated her pledge by leaving her name on the Michigan ballot when she could have had it removed (she agreed not to “participate” in that election). She also voilated it by speaking to the national and Florida media on Florida’s behalf during the days leading up to the Florida primary and by coming to Florida on the day of the primary to give her “victory” speech (she also agreed not to “campaign or participate” in that election).

    However, although she violated her pledge, contrary to DKE’s post above, she has not violated DNC rules (at least not to my knowledge). That’s not the argument being made here. Her current pandering to Floridians is disgraceful, dishonest, despicable…but under DNC rules…not illegal.

    So if and when she and her surrogates claim to be playing by the rules of the DNC, they’re making straw-man arguments. Our complaint is that she isn’t playing by the rules of jhonesty and decency.

  • Seriously, I cannot take another 4 years of republican rule. I’m likely to do something drastic, like move to Canada. I’m just really, really, really fed up with the bull$hit.

  • Surely the simplest theory is that in the course of chomping her way through the Midwest, Senator Clinton ate tainted beef, and that the dread symptoms of Mad Cow Disease are beginning to take their toll? I suggest that our thoughts and prayers should go to this poor sufferer.

  • It’s a short step from La partie, c’est moi to L’etat, c’est moi.

    Whoever called her ‘our Nixon’ above was righter than they knew….

  • I’m with your Mom, Erin.

    If Clinton thought she had some hideous revelation about Obama, she’d have used it long ago. Methinks the dark warnings coming from Clintonia about “October surprises” are plain old bullshitting, playing into the “The scary, vaguely sinister Black Man is hiding stuff” crap.

  • I’d guess that Clinton has decided that this is the last hurrah, and that if things don’t work out, New York will be looking for a new junior senator next time around. That’s why she’s running amok – because in her plan, there will be no consequences. She won’t be primaried out – she’ll simply say thanks for 8 years and shuffle off to Chappaqua. Of course, the Democratic party will have to suffer quite badly, but that ain’t going to be her problem. 111 million bucks does buy an awful lot of solace.

  • micilroy nails it. It’s this time or never for her; she doesn’t have anything to lose at this point, and she simply doesn’t mind who goes down with her.

  • Why yes … the Michigan primary was just like Zimbabwe … in that Clinton was the only one on the fucking ballot!

    Dear god. Is she really this stupid? Is she really so clueless as to think a one-candidate election is fair, simply because it benefits her interests? Is her ego really so big as to overshadow what’s best of the Democratic party?

    Any respect I had for Clinton is gone. Vanished. Vaporized like a fart in the wind.

    If Obama loses because of her (which he just might if she keeps this crap up until the convention) I’m gone. Seriously. The Mrs has a job offer in Denmark just sitting there until Jan. 2009. And if McCain wins, we’re leaving.

  • I said it before, I’ll say it again, this is T1, not T2. The only way the Terminator is going to stop is by a hydraulic press.

    And I have never been as disappointed in a politician either.

  • Here’s an excerpt from what Josh Marshall over at TPM had to say (emphasis is mine):

    “…[Senator Clinton] is embarking on a gambit that is uncertain in its result and simply breathtaking in its cynicism.

    I know many TPM Readers believe there is a deep moral and political issue at stake in the need to seat these delegations. I don’t see it the same way. But I’m not here to say they’re wrong and I’m right. It’s a subjective question and I respect that many people think this. What I’m quite confident about is that Sen. Clinton and her top advisors don’t see it that way.

    Why do I think that? For a number of reasons. One of her most senior advisors, Harold Ickes, was on the DNC committee that voted to sanction Florida and Michigan by not including their delegates. Her campaign completely signed off on sanctions after that. And there are actually numerous quotes from the Senator herself saying those primaries didn’t and wouldn’t count. Michigan and Florida were sanctioned because they ignored the rules the DNC had set down for running this year’s nomination process.

    The evidence is simply overwhelming that Sen. Clinton didn’t think this was a problem at all — until it became a vehicle to provide a rationale for her continued campaign.

    Now, that’s politics. One day you’re on one side of an issue, the next you’re on the other, all depending on the tactical necessities of the moment. But that’s not what Clinton is doing. She’s elevating it to a level of principle — first principles — on par with the great voting rights struggles of history. There’s no longer any question that she’s going to win the nomination. The whole point of the popular vote gambit was to make an argument to super-delegates. And that’s fine since that’s what super-delegates are there for — to make the decision by whatever measure they choose. But they’ve made their decision. The super delegates are breaking overwhelmingly for Obama. They simply don’t buy the arguments she’s making.

    As Greg Sargent makes clear here. There are very good reasons to think Sen. Clinton won’t take this to the convention, even as today she suggested she might. But that’s sort of beside the point.

    What she’s doing is not securing her the nomination. Rather, she’s gunning up a lot of her supporters to believe that the nomination was stolen from her — a belief many won’t soon abandon. And that on the basis of rationales and arguments there’s every reason to think she doesn’t even believe in.”

    I want to clarify something in case you missed it. “Gunning up her supporters to believe the nomination was stolen from her” would not be a side-effect of Clinton’s destructive behavior. IT IS HER GOAL!

  • I think that what we are seeing in this primary is the delayed working out of the poison that Clintonism brought to the Democrats and to public life. Teddy Kennedy, bless him, got it exactly right when he chose Obama after WJC had been running around like a lunatic firing off accusations of every kind. He saw that we needed the Clintons gone, and that Obama was the best chance of doing it. I am not slighting John Edwards here, but I think Obama is the clearer break with the Clintonian past, and that’s what Teddy saw.

    The Clintons are doing today what they have always done – persuade a vulnerable group that the Clintons and only the Clintons share their victimhood. To do this, they’ll tap into any well of resentment of malice, use any divisive tactic they know – and now they’ve turned those skills on our party. Damn it, when did it become remotely credible to use the sort of racist filth and victim-feminism that they are forcing down voters’ throats? We are Democrats, for heaven’s sake, not Republicans. We sit here watching a campaign that Atwater and Rove would find totally acceptable – and we let them get away with it.

    No, I would not vote for Clinton. Four years of McCain is grim, but it would let us clean house and purge the dregs of Clintonism. We need a clean, decent party, without these corrupt racist scum. No compromise and no VP slot for Clinton – if she runs as a race-baiting Republican, let her join her comrades across the aisle. I want a real Democrat for my nominee, and for the VP slot too.

  • You’re probably right, Maria. Maybe it’s simply she believes we can be beaten into submission. Fat chance. Still, what a pity.

  • You are obviously an Obama supporter. I, as a Hillary supporter, say “fight on”. It’s almost seems to be a concerted effort to just forget MI and FL. That’s about as far away as you can get from democratic principle. What makes you guys so nervous is that she has a point and it could have an impact on the results. You want to say to MI and FL “F— You”. I want to say the same to you guys for doing so.

  • fillphill: [FL and MI] could have an impact on the results

    Somebody flunked math class.

  • How can we forget Florida (sorry, Zimbabwe) and Michigan, fillphil? What democratic principle have you discovered that involves treating spurious elections as real? Since when did Americans accept elections when only one name was on the ballot, and when voters were told that the primary was not valid – and so did not vote? You are proposing to violate two of the key principles of democracy – that all parties and candidates shall be represented on the ballot, and that voters shall have access to a duly constituted election on the appointed day. Neither of those applies in the cases of Florida and Michigan – as even Clinton acknowledged before she lost the nomination. Explain just what makes either of these “elections” legitimate, or think like a Democrat, and admit that they weren’t, aren’t and won’t be valid.

  • mcilroy is right. There’s nothing left for her after this. She has poisoned the well as far as any other Presidential runs go, and I highly suspect her Senate seat will be in dire jepardy for her. She will be a pariah to the Deomcratic Party after this (even if Obama wins in November). She’s a relic from the past, as well. This is her last desperate moment on the big stage, and if she has to destroy everyone around her to create some psychotic sence of self-importance she’ll do it. I would not be shocked or even mildly surprised if she attempts an independant run once she drops out.

    No matter what happens, though, she’s finished.

  • Actually, my point is that she doesn’t care about the future of her New York seat. If she doesn’t get the nomination, she’ll leave New York to find another junior senator. You can’t primary someone who quits – and that’s why she knows there won’t be any consequences. She’ll retire at 60, and spend her last decades spending that 111 million.

  • I hear the sound bites from Senator Clinton’s FL speeches and am truly creeped-out by the level of oozing delusion. I hear her and wonder how anyone of either sound mind or conscience could be advancing the ideas that she espouses. If she is lying, I believe her capacity for dishonesty is on a par with Bill’s – as illustrated by his infamous “I did not have sex with that woman, Miss Lewinsky” whopper. She matches him both on brazenness and in the implication that somehow those to whom the lie “must” be told are responsible for the “necessity” of the lie. The liar is a a victim. If she is not lying, she is utterly deluded. Either way, I have to question the suitability of her temperament for such a high office. If she is both a skilled unapologetic liar and delusional, well, we have already had eight years of that.

    I agree that this adversity is revealing her character. In my mind, she has not yet crossed the “irredeemable” line, but she is painfully close. Also, the image of her “sowing salt in the fields” is potent and feels – sadly – appropriate. The party elders need to stop worrying about keeping their powder dry. A few more weeks of this type of rhetoric from Senator Clinton, and that loud boom they hear (when she has ignited all available Democratic powder) will be the last sound they hear before another long stint in a self-imposed political wilderness.

  • Tell you what, fillphil. You and your friends can go vote on October 1 for your General Election candidate? Why don’t you? I’m sure the authorities will count it.

  • Again, I’m with mcilroy–at least, I think that scenario holds as long as Obama wins in November. Should McCain win, Clinton will suddenly discover the will to go on in the Senate for four more years.

    It won’t matter that she’ll have destroyed her chances with the majority of the American people. She’ll be surrounded by enough “You can do it this time, Hill!” types that she’ll think she has a chance in 2012.

  • As a real “older” Democrat @ 65 yrs, I am totally dismayed with what I perceive to be Hillary’s out and out unprecedented attempt to destroy the Democratic Party.

    As a woman/grandmother I was proud of her at one point and would have supported her if she were the nominee. Although I preferred those other nominees who were not so corporately tied. Now I would never support her. Maybe that is harsh, but I am not a politician, I don’t need to compromise on my priniciples.

    FL & MI cannot be seated as they are…because too many people never voted in these primaries in the first place BECAUSE they were told they were invalid contests.

    Heard an interesting audio clip wherein Clinton (in 2007) discounts MI as of no importance… This woman is a liar and an opportunist without integrity. Knowing that I can no longer even contemplate her as president.

  • Hi Maria. I think it’s possible Clinton might go on for four more years if McCain wins, but somewhat unlikely. She won’t get the same level of funding or immediate superdelegate support next time, plus, there will be immense resistance to her among younger Democrats and the black community. I doubt that she would consider the game worth the candle – especially since at 64 she would be approaching the “too old” bracket. I can see your reasoning, but I am fairly sure this really is the last hurrah, the all or nothing gamble for the Clinton legacy. It’s also worth considering that the Republicans are unlikely to be this weak in four years time, which might also affect her thinking.

  • I have been amazed at the inability (failure) of the DNC leadership to tell the Clintons and others about the need for her (them) to recognize that she has no inalienable right to the nomination or the White House. The state leadership that permits the racial divide to exist in the southern, white working class states reminds all of us that former Dixiecrats during the sixties and their descendants will not realize that the world has changed and leadership must change. Rather than discourage racial and gender hatred, they permit and in some instances encourage it.The Republican party is expirencing the disconnect with its factions and heading towards a November catastrophe; the Democracts really were never unified and cannot figure out a way to please everyone. I really think that this is my last
    time as a party member and I will go independent next time.

  • I, as a Hillary supporter, say “fight on”. -fillphil

    There’s no such thing as Hillary supporters at this point. There’s McCain enablers and Democrats. I’m a Democrat so I support our nominee, Barack Obama.

  • I suspect that if Hillary doesn’t get a seating of all MI/FL delegates with full voting rights from of the Rules and Bylaws Committee, which is populated by more committed Clinton supers, then she’ll take it to the Credentials Committee (I believe they meet at the end of June). Then if the Credentials Committee, controlled primarily by Obama and Dean, affirm the Rules/Bylaws Committee’s decision, then Hillary will pull a Tom Delay and raise hell in the media about biased/activist judges on the Credentials Committee.

    I’m telling you…she’s taking it to the floor of the convention. I hope I’m wrong, but as others have said, she’s seeking to undermine the legitimacy of Obama’s nomination.

  • Er, fillphil, it was Hillary who said “F– you” to FL and MI. She’s just changed her mind now that she believes reversing the decision — which she supported — would help her chances.

    It’s shameless self-aggrandizing dishonest politics at its worst.

    Hillary had better hope that Obama wins in November, because she is setting herself up to be the scapegoat if he fails. And wow, will the anger and opprobrium be strong in that case. I’d certainly throw money at a recall election to remove her from the Senate, and I can’t be alone in that.

  • Agree totally, mcilroy, except that I think it would take her a while (part of the rest of her Senate term?) to dissociate herself from the supporter bubble, come round to this realization and give up. I don’t think she’ll leave the Senate quite immediately if McCain is elected.

    Hell, I don’t know. I’ve argued all along that Clinton is only fighting this dirty because she knows damned well this is her last chance and she and Bill don’t care how many bridges they burn (Bill ought to, but he’s too seduced by dreams of regained power). And probably that still holds, but she’s so far off the deep end now–putting all her energies into spreading the idea that she’s being robbed of her rightful nomination, which is a myth that will have useful traction for years with low-information Clinton supporters looking to be victims–that I can’t help but wonder if she’s finally crossed that line into thinking that 2012 might give her a chance.

    I just don’t know. Normally I find this kind of speculation on deluded politicians entertaining, but what this monster (turns out Samantha Power understated it, no?) is willing to do to the party is nothing but horrifying.

  • Maria, funny that we should look back now and find Samantha Power to have understated the case – but then, that’s why she’s making the big bucks at Harvard. *s*

    I think Clinton has always planned this as the final mission – and that she never imagined any need to go on with the New York gig under any circumstances. She doesn’t need to come to an acceptance – she’s already discarded NYC. What would she want four more years for? She won’t get too friendly a reception from the Senate Dems after all this. The only thing that can justify her is victory, by any and all means, and if she has that, well, some other sucker can do the dog and pony show for the Big Apple.

    I am sure that the Zimbabwe comparison is another part of the race-baiting strategy – it makes Obama the evil black tyrant stealing the votes of white folk, while reminding people that as a half-African, he ain’t really American – not like those hard-working white folk. It’s a revolting and contemptible strategy, and we ought to call it what it is. I don’t vote Democrat to elect a racist, even if a thousand victimologists rise up to scream denunciations. Clinton in power is not something my liberal conscience would allow me to contemplate. Hell, even McCain has been better about the race issue!

  • Many have admired Hilary for her competitiveness, her discipline, and her strength in the face of adversity. When her campaign went dirty, our respect declined, but it’s commonly understood this is often the best strategy when you are behind in a race. If she continues fighting after the primaries are complete and after she has clearly lost though, then I, for one, am done with her. She will have turned me from a potential supporter into her open opponent.

    It’s time for her to show that in her arsenal of political skills, she also possesses grace.

  • Maria

    I can’t help but wonder if she’s finally crossed that line into thinking that 2012 might give her a chance.

    We’ve certainly heard this speculation for some time now, and I have to admit I didn’t take it seriously, probably until yesterday. I think she’s actively campaigning to destroy Obama, make sure her supporters don’t vote for him but rather McCain, and then she’ll run against McCain in four years.

    I’ve seen post after post on other blogs as well by people who claim they’re Hillary supporters, and they say they don’t care if Obama wins the nomination fair and square — they’ll vote for McCain anyway.

    To be honest, I don’t think there are enough of them to wrest the election away from Obama though. Some analysts anticipate that 100M people will vote in the GE. But only 33M people are anticipated to vote in the primaries/caucuses that end soon. I think that’s right, and maybe that’s the Democratic primaries, though it might be both. That leaves some unexplored math about how many of those people are Hillary-bullies who’d vote for McCain rather than Obama, but American voters constitute a great many more voters than showed up for the primaries/caucuses. If Obama runs a strong campaign against McCain, associating him with Bush, he’ll trounce McCain.

    If Hillary’s counting on her supporters to bring Obama down in the GE, that’s probably a pipe dream. But it’s all in Obama’s hands, and I’m sure his campaign has all the math about possibilities.

  • Steve: Welcome to the crowd. Sen. Clinton is a destructive force now, whatever her past potential for good. Her latest tactic — likening her cause to civil rights, national elections overthrown by dictators, and the suffragettes — suggests a degree of denial and delusion, even megalomania, that is frightening. She fans rage among supporters that is neither proactive nor progressive. Historians and psychoanalysts can debate the Wild Bill Factor; suffice it to say that she is in a complicated, often mutually destructive marriage that influences everything she does, and we have enough problems already without having to deal with crazy marriage and the ways it works itself out. In short: she’s not a healthy influence. Bush and Co. have spent eight years dividing us; we must not let the vitriol of dissension and mutual contempt invade our own hearts and good will. We have to take a deep breath, look around, and remember our better selves.

  • “It’s time for her to show that in her arsenal of political skills, she also possesses grace.”

    Don’t look now, but a squadron of winged pigs is cruising past at an altitude of approximately 500 feet.

  • I can’t believe that Hillary is masquerading her obsessive need to win as some sort of idealistic “fight for the people”. Her last-ditch attempt at changing the rules proves that she’s unfit to be our president. Hillary, you need therapy…

  • I have to admit, as someone who never believed in the Clintons since seeing Billy-J for the lying con artist he is with his bimbo eruptions and his b.s. with the draft board, I was giving them credit this past week since West Virginia (some might remember in the election-night thread I was the one who pointed out her pledge to “fight for the nominee” in the general) for being political realists and being willing to finally see what was what and do the right thing. But then came yesterday, and I see that the two of them obviously are now delusional. They’re not only as bad as I have thought they were for the past 16 years, they are far, far worse. This betrayal of Democrats on her part is even worse than the betrayal of Democrats by her husband over the Lewinsky scandal, and I thought that was as bad as it gets.

    She is truly un-fucking-believable – beyond anything.

  • “If Democrats send the message that we don’t fully value your votes, we know Senator McCain and the Republicans will be more than happy to have them. The Republicans will make a simple and compelling argument: why should FL and MI voters trust the Democratic party look out for you when they won’t even listen to you?”

    Guess which well-known Democratic politician, currently in Florida, said the above? You have three guesses – and no, the answer is NOT Lieberman. And no, she ain’t black.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/24763804#24763804

    The quote is about 35 seconds in.

  • The FL and MI situation must be resolved by the end of the primaries, June 3.

    Even though FL was flawed (no campaigning, some voters didn’t vote because they didn’t think it would count) and MI was clearly invalid (the only candidates on the ballot were Clinton 55%, Kucinich 4%, Dodd 1% and Gravel 0%… no Obama, no Edwards, no Richardson, and “Other” got 40%), there is a common-sense solution that Hillary must accept… And she still won’t win. And then she’ll continue her tantrum with some new goalpost-setting. At that time I hope the supers dump her like the plague. Actually I wish they’d do that NOW. This Florida=Zimbabwe argument is sad and pathetic coming from someone with Clinton’s intelligence. She has clearly sold her soul… for what?

    CB, you’ve been more than fair. Clinton lost me back in early March and I’m pretty fair and open-minded.

  • Someone stick a fork in Clinton — literally.

    In spite of her DLC voting record, her repeated statements that McCain was more qualified than Obama, her regularly changing the goalposts and changing the rules, and her playing the victim, that was my first personal attack.

  • CB,

    You Atrios and other fine folk of the blogosphere are welcome late to the party.

    There’s a point you may have missed at which there was no obligation to fight your gut instinct.

    Remember the argument right wingers have for always hearing both sides of the global warming and creationism /evolution arguments?

    Do we have to feel guilty about not airing sunny outlooks ob Hilary Clinton’s behavior?

    Is it not possible this is one argument that has only one credible side?
    It’s you, Atrios, and almost everyone else against Terry McAuliffe, Geraldine Ferraro, Clinton herself, and possibly Ben Stein, I’m not sure.

    Isn’t there a point at which you give yourself permission to unapologetically see the Empress has no clothes?

    “Even-handedness” is a laudable goal, but there’s a point at which it just starts to look like sensationalist enabling of well-organized loons.

  • CB, you’ve been more than fair.

    I was going to mention that as well — CB has been ridonkulously even handed throughout this whole process, defending both sides with equal thoughtfulness and tact.

    The fact he’s finally snapped shows just how far Clinton has fallen in her attempt to rise to the top.

  • toowearyforoutrage said:
    Isn’t there a point at which you give yourself permission to unapologetically see the Empress has no clothes?

    Ewwwwwwwwwwwwww! I really didn’t need that mental image.

    (My second personal comment of the campaign.)

  • I have to wholeheartedly agree with you on this article.

    I likewise have come to the same conclusion only recently and now know that I can NEVER support Clinton due to her “scorched earth” manner of campaigning.

    Though I do agree that she has every right to continue campaigning, it is her TACTICS in how she goes about it that I dont agree with. Clinton is so extremely vicious and ruthless that is appears to me that all that she is doing is dividing the party and yet, she has the gall to talk about “unity”. Apparently her definition of this is not the same as what most people think.

    Clinton said: “If Democrats send the message that we don’t fully value your votes, we know Senator McCain and the Republicans will be more than happy to have them.” When I saw this comment all I could think was that Clinton intentionally wants the democrats to lose this race so that she can run again in 2112. Why on Earth would a DEMOCRAT say this?

  • Those of you who claim respect and admiration for Clinton haven’t been paying attention.

    Clinton’s latest thoughts are not shocking, merely more of the same lack of character we all saw while the Clinton’s were in the White House and probably what others saw earlier in their careers in more local politics.

    Myopic partisan vision or those mired in self-interest often miss what is square in their face.

    People, if we pay attention, will tell us who they are (and usually rather quickly).

    To many of us, what Hillary Clinton is now doing is not news.

  • I really didn’t need that mental image.

    Think of McCain naked! That’ll distract you!

    Hee, I’m so evil.

  • I share your pain. I registered to vote the day I turned 18, and the very first President I voted for was Bill Clinton in 1996. When he was impeached, I defended him vigorously. My argument was that his personal life was irrelevant to his policy decisions. As we went through the national disaster that has been the Bush administration, I began admiring Bill Clinton more and more. And then this campaign…

    In this campaign, I saw what you saw–the Clintons were willing to do whatever it took to win. That was what they really cared about; their centrist rhetoric wasn’t worth the paper it was printed on. Racism became the overriding theme of Hillary’s campaign: Vote for me, I’m white.

    I’m Hispanic, and I can tell you this–if Hillary overturns the democratic process, as she is threatening to attempt to do–I will leave the Democratic Party. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. It will be confirmation that the Democratic Party stands with the rednecks of Appalachia, who won’t vote for a “Negro” come hell or high water. It will mean, in short, that the Democratic Party is actually the White People’s Party, and brown people such as myself are fools for supporting them.

    Obama won this fight fair and square. The Democratic Party cannot allow itself to revert to the White Primary that was overturned by the Supreme Court during World War II.

  • Doubtful in #109 said:

    “There’s no such thing as Hillary supporters at this point. There’s McCain enablers and Democrats. I’m a Democrat so I support our nominee, Barack Obama.”

    Indeed – that one is just so good that I had to repeat it.

  • The time to object was months ago when she made it clear she was going to fight to seat the delegates as is, including in a contest where she ran unopposed. It was crystal clear what she was up to then. She hasn’t changed.

  • Wow, It seems like someone struck a nerve

    When was the last time there were 131 posts?

  • It’s almost like she’s working for the neocons, and Middle East belligerents like donor Haim Saban who funds the warmongering Saban Center at Brookings, and was recently reported as having tried to bribe a group of young Democrat superdelegates to declare for Hillary in return for $1 million.

    If she can’t win, she wants to throw the election to McCain, so that Saban gets his war with Iran on. I expect she would launch that war if she were elected.

    That’s the only explanation that makes any sense at all.

  • We can rail against the Clintons and this ugly change in tactics all we want. But we really should direct our attention and anger at the superdelegates who have not committed. It’s 2 days after Oregon and Obama has clinched the majority of pledged delegates. They need to commit and take away the oxygen from Clinton’s fire. Otherwise it will consume the democratic part until there’s nothing left. I wish they would stop waiting until May 31st (Rules & ByLaws committee) or June 3rd.

  • Oh, geez, look at this:

    The next Democratic donnybrook will be in a Washington ballroom.

    Busloads of Hillary Clinton supporters will swarm a meeting next week at a D.C. Marriott, where Democratic Party elders hope to forge a compromise over Florida and Michigan’s now-voided convention delegates.

    “We really don’t know what to expect, but we do know that the Clinton people are very organized,” said a senior Democratic National Committee source.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/22/clinton-supporters-plan-t_n_103100.html

    I just hope the DNC keeps a stiff backbone. There will be hell to pay otherwise.

  • From the Hillary Rapid Responder page:

    Dear Fellow Hillary Supporters,

    If you believe that the DNC must honor our core democratic principles and enfranchise the people of MI and FL and their respective delegations,

    If you believe that Hillary Clinton is best for our party, most likely to win in November and best for our country,

    If you believe the contest for the democratic nomination must not end before all of the votes from each State and US Territory have been cast and counted and that nominating conventions, not candidates (or the media), declare the nominee,

    If you believe that the media and DNC have underestimated the passion, strength, intensity and determination of Hillary supporters and the power of the women’s vote,

    Then Join a group of Hillary supporters who are planning to visit Washington, D.C. on Saturday, May 31st to attend the meeting of the DNC Rules Committee. The Rules Committee will meet at the Marriott Wardman Park Hotel -2660 Woodley Road NW, Washington, DC

    ——–

    Time for a mock funeral.

  • MM

    Here’s the rest of it:

    ….the DNC Rules Committee is meeting that day to make a determination with respect to MI and FL and we think it is essential to convene in Washington to support our cherished democratic principles, help enfranchise MI and FL and to show that Hillary has equally high numbers of passionate, devoted supporters who believe fervently that she will be the better general candidate and best president.

    Our purpose is not to divide the party or attack the DNC or Senator Obama. At the same time, Hillary’s strong support cannot be dismissed in DNC efforts to unify the party.

    http://hillaryresponders.com/counteveryvote

  • Those folks won’t be “attending” the Rules & Bylaws meeting; they’ll be demonstrating outside. The meeting is open to the public, but that doesn’t mean they have to make room for anyone who wants to come in. It does mean that the press will be inside, which should be a relief to all of us who want this process to be fully transparent.

  • neil wilson said:
    Wow, It seems like someone struck a nerve

    Yep. It was only yesterday morning that I was feeling optimistic that the end of the long national nightmare that is the Bush regime was in sight. See comment #6.
    http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/15608.html#more-15608

    Now it’s looking like it’s even money that we’ll end up with McCain as president.

    I wonder if I’m too old to emigrate.

  • And then there’s this:

    http://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida/stories/2008/05/19/daily33.html

    Lawsuit seeks to seat Florida delegates

    Three prominent Broward County Democrats filed a federal lawsuit Thursday morning against the Democratic National Committee, seeking to force the committee to seat Florida’s delegates at the upcoming presidential nomination convention.

    The DNC could not immediately be reached for comment.

    The suit was filed by state Sen. Steven Geller, an attorney for Greenspoon Marder in Fort Lauderdale; Barbara Effman, president of the Democratic Club in Broward County; and Percy Johnson, a convention delegate.

    The suit alleges that the committee failed to “treat equally all similarly situated states and Democratic voters” when it decided not to seat Florida delegates because the state moved up its primary date against party rules. The suit also claims the committee’s actions violated “due process” because the sanctions against Florida “flow from a constitutionally inadequate process that implements DNC rules in an arbitrary manner.”

  • She is desperate and that is the truth. She can’t stand to lose a fight.
    I am disappointed, she cares about her legacy and not the democratic party.
    she wants the rules changed as long as if will favor her and that shows she is wrong.

    It’s one thing to want to win and believe in yourself but it’s another to sabotage the democratic party in Nov. She don’t care about the future of America just the legacy of her name.

    She was once a respectable fierce opponent but now a desperate irrational cry baby. Oh, how the might have fallen.

  • “Then Join a group of Hillary supporters who are planning to visit Washington, D.C. on Saturday, May 31st to attend the meeting of the DNC Rules Committee. The Rules Committee will meet at the Marriott Wardman Park Hotel -2660 Woodley Road NW, Washington, DC”

    Oh look, another ‘bourgeois riot’, just like the Republicans pulled in 2000.

  • Anyone else notice the lack of superdelegate endorsements today? It’s almost too quiet. Wouldn’t it be nice if they were going to all come out at once.

    That news about the protestors at the Rules & Bylaws committee meeting is disturbing. Way too close to Florida 2000 for my comfort.

  • SNL’s recent parody of Hillary Clinton had it right on. She is a sore loser.She knows that she has lost, so plan B is to see to it that Obama looses to put herself in a better position to get the nomination next go ’round. There is no other explanation for yesterdays outrageous comments in Florida.
    She is taking herself from the position of a strong talented leader who has the respect and gratitude of her Party, to a pathetic, strident shrew that will stop at nothing to get what she wants.It is clearly now all about her not her country. As a women, a former elected official and a lawyer who broke many glass cielings myself, I am glad that this women is not going to be president, ever.
    If Obama even thinks of a shot- gun wedding with this woman (at her insistence of course) by selecting her as his running mate, he sure isn’t the man I think he is.

  • If she is convinced that she has won the popular vote (which she claims she has and which many polls show she is at least even in that regard) then it is a small rationalization to for her to assume she is the candidate the “people” truly want and so should go forward by any means available since she believes “most” of the “people” want her to be president. Possibly she thinks too much is at stake for her to just go gently into that good night especially since “so many” want her to continue. Is it so shocking to accept that Hill supporters want for their candidate what Obama supporters want for their candidate? That each is telling the other to just get over it?

    Some on this site not only express their opinions but condemn others who don’t agree with them. This primary is the presidential election. The primary outcome is that a dem be put in the WH and threatening a McCain win as punishment to the winning primary dem really defeats both candidates and the party and the country. If Hill wants to push it to the max then Obama supporters should just resign themselves to work harder to get Obama elected. It still should be looked at as a win-win situation.

    It truly is disappointing that the process should be made harder but it is not the end of the world. We just soldier on in support of our candidates without losing hope. This is how we act if we truly are the “change we are looking for”.

  • Steve,

    You’re to be congratulated for writing this. It would have been easy to omit.

    And if you still have Peter Daou’s phone number, tell him from me that I think it’s time for him to quit. Loyalty is one thing, but enabling this kind of anti-Democratic (to say nothing of pro-Republican) behavior must be soul-killing.

    I know he had the best of intentions. The Clintons simply sold him the same lie they’ve been selling everyone else. The same one I bought into in the 90’s.

    No more.

  • “But this episode is very revealing about Clinton’s character.”

    really? finally?

    what is disappointing is that it has taken so long for dems to realize these things about her (and hubby). Apparently she has to do what she always does – lie, cheat, obfuscate, grasp at power – to a dem in order for it to be noticed.

  • To be a Democrat has, for me, always meant to be fair and to recognize the majority vote. In my 62 years I have voted for many Dems who didn’t get elected, but were defeated by other voters according to the rules. The crushing of the rules in the election of George W. Bush was a devastating blow to all Democrats, yet I expected all of us to go on following the rules, knowing that being true to our principals will eventually win out.

    Now we are confronted with Hillary Clinton and an attempt to break the rules that everyone else was following through the primaries. What is the difference between her actions now and the Bush campaign in Florida in 2000? Not much.

    The Superdelegates see what is happening… they must. We have to urge those who haven’t stated their endorsement to back our candidate, Barack Obama, now. And those who have endorsed Clinton should, at this point, be encouraged to switch. There is no other way.

    Under The LobsterScope

  • joey,

    Is it so shocking to accept that Hill supporters want for their candidate what Obama supporters want for their candidate?

    Why would it be? All of us want things that we are not going to get. Part of being an adult is learning to accept that. The problem is not what they want. It is what they and their candidate is willing to do to get it.

    The bottom line is that, especially when the stakes are this high, there is a line and Clinton has crossed it. Fighting hard is one thing. Deliberately delegitimizing your opponent’s likely win is another. You seem to think that she should be free from criticism for doing so because she is somehow able to rationalize it. That Obama supporters should simply ignore the fact that she is making our work and the work of the party harder for whatever sort of rationale that she has managed to cobble together in her mind. To say the least, I find your position entirely unpersuasive.

    Being a sore loser when one is playing a game is one thing that certainly shows a lack of character. Being a sore loser in a contest where things like Health Care, War and Peace and reproductive rights are on the table is, frankly, sociopathic. That, in a Democratic candidate is not something to be “gotten over.” It is something that requires scathing criticism if not outright derision however things eventually turn out.

  • Joey, everyone acknowledges that Hillary’s fans are devoted and many people like her. Many more liked Obama. That’s not the issue.

    The issue is that we have impartial standards designed to ensure that the decision is fair to both sides. Those are called “rules.” This is why Hillary is seen as such a traitor by many in the Democratic Party–she wants to make and remake the rules as she goes along, some of which she made herself.

    Any organization that fails to abide by its own rules is doomed to fail. Perhaps, as others have pointed out, that is the intent. Destroy the Democratic Party as punishment for spurning Hillary.

  • Unfortunately, Hillary Clinton seems to be channeling two very common American afflictions: victimhood and entitlement. Call me an elitist, but maybe this explains her appeal with certain segments of the population. If you feel that somehow you have been cheated in life or that powerful external forces are allied against you then you’re probably a Hillary supporter.

  • Brent…There are many who keep voting for her…I don’t know why but no matter what criticism she deserves… she has a lot of support and uses it to justify staying in the race. Apparently the party is already split because these supporters aren’t going away and the only alternative is to keep supporting Obama. But she will continue on because she has the support to do so…and in her mind she’s following the “will” of the voters. It won’t be much longer and the “willingness” to continue will subside but it won’t be from any of the reasons one would expect. The other candidates dropped out due to lack of support but Clinton still has an amazing amount of support so she will try anything to stay in the race because so many want her too. Something unseen and unprepared for is about to enter the picture that will change everything. When determination turns to stubbornness then things have become unbalanced. Obama remains balanced and it will make all the difference.

  • I’ve never liked Hillary Clinton, but a few months ago, I thought I could hold my nose and vote for her. Despite my instinctive dislike, I thought she would run a decent campaign and would make a good President. Now I have grown to detest her. I am mystified by her supporters. Is this what they want for a President–someone who lies, cheats, and has no integrity?

  • OOPs, looks like I accidentally wandered into another meeting of the HillaryHaters club.

    It’s ironic that Sen. Obama is one of the most disciplined, well mannered, gracious politicians to come along in a generation and his supporters on these kind of message boards are loose cannons spewing endless bile and venom.

    I guess it’s not really designed to convince anyone your position is right, but just to vent. Good luck with that.

    By the way, the Michigan and (expecially) Florida voters are going to remember how the Democratic party disenfranchised them in the primaries, and how Sen. Obama’s campaign fought against seating the delegates they voted for (they won’t be fooled by the scheme to simply split delegates and ignore the vote). Good luck with the November election getting out from under that.

  • But she will continue on because she has the support to do so…and in her mind she’s following the “will” of the voters

    You are being more than a little obtuse here. The issue is not whether or not she chooses to continue. Once again, it is her approach that is the problem. If she wants to continue making the argument that she is the best candidate and should get the support of the remaining delegates, I, for one, could not care less. By all effective measures she has lost that argument but if she wants to keep on making it, by all means, she can knock herself out.

    The problem comes from her explicitly making the argument that her opponent’s eventual victory is not a legitimate one. That it fundamentally violates the basic principles of fairness in the manner of Jim Crow or of the Zimbabwe political situation. That is a distinct issue and the one that is bothering people here. Do you really not see the difference or understand why this sort of thing is particularly offensive?

    Nobody cares if she wants to continue throw her money and waste her effort on a losing cause. What we care about is that she seems determined to drag us all down with her. She is perfectly capable of continuing her effort without doing so.

  • I happen to be a Florida voter pfgr. You don’t speak for me and neither does Hillary Clinton. But let me assure you that all of your righteous condescension and scattershot insulting generalizations are greatly appreciated.

  • Hannah said:

    “She has clearly sold her soul… for what?”

    This is my question. There’s something beyond egotistical going on here. Pathological. Desperate. I get the sense that the White House was shimmering off in the distance like a fix to a doper after a very long dry spell. I can hear the sigh and see the eyes closing and the relaxed and blissful slump back into power. If they could just score. If they could just get the nomination and even if they can’t. Somehow, they’ve got to get back in there.

    Once again, it’s Invasion of the Body Snatchers. They look like we do but something ain’t right. And they really wig out when you say no to something they’d reallyreallyreally like you to go along with. If Obama pulls this thing off and becomes president, the book that will be written about the strategizing that went on in Camp Obama as he wended his way through Clinton power zombies and RepubCo destructobots will be a most amazing tale.

    I hope I get to read it.

  • Steve, I’ve been following politics for 20 years longer than you have and I can say without hesitation you are simply wrong.

    Dean and the DNC should never have made the idiotic mistake of taking away 100% of the delegates from TWO VERY IMPORTANT GENERAL ELECTION STATES. What is so amazing is that Hillary Clinton is the only candidate who seems to be able to see this.

    You are from Florida, which should give you insight into how terrible the 2000 fiasco was to people in the state. Why would Democrats want to be a party to that in 2008??

    Florida could be in play for the Democrats unless the party writes them off, and/or McCain decides to select Charlie Crist as his running mate. Even with Crist, it could still be in play if Clinton were the candidate instead of Obama.

    So stand on your soap box and feign disgust, but it won’t help Democrats win in 2008. The Democrats would do well to listen to Clinton and seat the FL and MI delegations now.

    BAC

  • Faint much?

    It is absolutely astounding to me that people who claim to be educated can be so naive, so ignorant, and so morally superior about politics – at the very same time that another Democratic candidate has been playing, well, politics – albeit his brand is more dangerous, even, than what you think Clinton’s is. Turning the Democratic Party into a) Republican-lite; and b) a personality cult is dangerous, completely blurring distinctions – and policies – that Democrats have fought for, for years! Yet, you’re perfectly willing to let Obama turn the Democratic Party into this, than give any support to Hillary Clinton. Why is it, do you think, that Hillary Clinton has the support of an overwhelming number of Democrats, compared to Barack Obama? Barack Obama is no more a “Democrat” than is my cat. He does a great job of selling, though – to a generation that can’t be bothered to seriously think through and question what they hear or see. And what they see is a charming, good-looking, articulate young man – who happens to be AA – and all the old knee-jerk reactions go rushing to the brain.

    We don’t need you to defend Hillary Clinton. We will be asking you, though, to defend your support of this inexperienced Republican-lite candidate that was so arrogant he thought he could get away with selling Democrats a bill of goods, and be elected POTUS.

    Here’s another news flash: the GE is breaking down, now, to the traditional battleground states: PA, OH, FL, MO. Obama can’t carry them. Clinton can – and she’ll be a hell of a lot more progressive on the issues real Democrats care about.

  • Unfortunately, Hillary Clinton seems to be channeling two very common American afflictions: victimhood and entitlement.

    You must really hate yourself, or you hate those who seem to be weaker than you, on the surface. The minute somebody like you posts, I can spot the victim: always projecting onto somebody else, usually somebody who ‘appears’ or is culturally seen as inferior, because it makes them feel powerful, when once they were powerless and could do nothing about it.

    Call me an elitist, but maybe this explains her appeal with certain segments of the population. If you feel that somehow you have been cheated in life or that powerful external forces are allied against you then you’re probably a Hillary supporter.

    Yep. You’re absolutely an adult victim of something. No question in my mind. It’s classic ACOA behavior, or behavior of somebody who has been raped, sexually molested, or abused in other ways. Doesn’t really matter to me if you’re male or female, because abuse-victimhood/perpetration-powerlessness go hand-in-hand.

  • Why is it, do you think, that Hillary Clinton has the support of an overwhelming number of Democrats, compared to Barack Obama?

    In the midst of all of your other astoundingly incorrect and unsupported statements, this may certainly have been the most ridiculous of all, although its a tough contest. The proposition that the majority of Democrats support Hillary Clinton is, at best, incredibly shaky. The notion that her Democratic constituency overwhelms Obama’s is nothing short of delusional. The simple proof is that if it were true, we wouldn’t be having this discussion and HRC would be the nominee.

    The fact is that I don’t think you managed to write one true, or even one defensible, sentence in your entire comment, but this one still manages to stand out as a massive whopper.

  • LauraW – it must feel wonderful to endorse a racist, vote-suppressing, financially corrupt couple who can’t even handle the word “be” honestly. Or did your Republican heart beat faster in its shrivelled black way as you contemplated Billy Jeff forcing himself on more women? What a wonderful advertisement those two vultures are for democracy. Luckily, we Americans don’t have to believe that they are Democrats any longer.

  • brent: The problem comes from her explicitly making the argument that her opponent’s eventual victory is not a legitimate one.

    Exactly, and the post above yours demonstrates just how effective that argument is with some low-information voters, and how much factual information a few are willing to overlook and/or deny in order to continue to support Clinton.

    An 80-year-old white female Obama supporter told me last night, “Clinton knows there’s no mathematical way for her to win even if Florida and Michigan were seated as is. She’s trying to change her legacy from ‘the candidate who started with every advantage and managed to lose’ to ‘the courageous candidate who had the nomination she was entitled to stolen from her.'” Interesting.

  • I think this conversation illustrates how our political system is designed to give us less than the best candidates and just how desperate and hungry the electorate is for someone of substance.

    Obama, in large measure, is an unknown quantity, while Clinton keeps demonstrating an ugly side. Even with this, both camps attribute, to my eye, undeserving qualities to their chosen candidates and insist on their correctness.

    Both camps seem myopic.

    Little seems to distinguish the candidate’s views from each other, both seem to often talk in platitudes, both have been inconsistent in their views, and both have resorted to mud-slinging at times.

    They are both flawed candidates with neither having a clear distinctive lead in capturing the hearts, minds, and votes of the electorate.

    And with that each camp continues to club at the other hoping for some kind of “hay-maker” punch to finally rid themselves of the other.

    The carnage is becoming palpable and the potential true victim to all this mayhem could very well be our nation.

  • LauraW:
    “Yep. You’re absolutely an adult victim of something. No question in my mind. It’s classic ACOA behavior, or behavior of somebody who has been raped, sexually molested, or abused in other ways. Doesn’t really matter to me if you’re male or female, because abuse-victimhood/perpetration-powerlessness go hand-in-hand.”

    A while back I posted a message on Salon critcal of Hillary clinton and one of her supporters responded by saying that I was obviously terrified of vaginas (it wasn’t a joke, she expounded on the comment). Talk about a personality cult! That’s exactly what Hillary Clinton is, and her supporters often seem to function in a strange alternate reality often injecting inappropriate psycho-sexual and misplaced gender issues. It has been afterall, the clinton campaign (and clinton herself) who have used race in the basest fashion. Race more than gender or sexual politics has been used as a weapon in this campaign thanks to Hillary Clinton.

    The fact is that Hillary Clinton began this primary campaign with the overwhelming advantage of an ex-President husband, a superstar political celebrity name, lots and lots of money and very well connected powerful doners. On the issues and policy she dodged and weaved and avoided clear and direct answers, her vote on Kyle-Lieberman was as craven and calculated as her vote on Iraq, she completely misunderstood the reality of the Democratic primary process and vainly thought she could walz her way through, she surrounded herself with the same shadey usual suspects like those of her husband’s adminstration, she reacted to set-backs by resorting to the most ugly racially charged tactics, she has repeatedly lied. The failure of her bid for the nomination should be dropped squarely at her feet. She is a product of yesterday not today, and she fell short to a candidate who is more modern, fresher and more inspiring and foreward thinking. That her ego, vanity, sence of entitlement and compulsion is so great that she can’t can’t honor that age-old political tradition of losing graciously but, instead, has embarked on a hideous campaign of destruction will be her legacy….and the legacy of her vindictive core of supporters.

  • We are witnessing a truly historical flameout.

    Why would anyone expect that to be pretty?

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