The Mayberry Machiavellis pick up a new team member

March 9, 2006

When John DiIulio worked as a domestic policy advisor in the Bush’s White House, he was a serious scholar who expected to find policy professionals running the executive branch. He was sorely disappointed.

“There is no precedent in any modern White House for what is going on in this one: a complete lack of a policy apparatus,” DiIulio said, reflecting on his White House service. “What you’ve got is everything — and I mean everything — being run by the political arm. It’s the reign of the Mayberry Machiavellis.”

It led to a Hackocracy, in which top administration positions went to unqualified cronies. What these staffers lacked in skills, they made up for in loyalty to a right-wing cause. Some of the names are familiar (Mike Brown), others less so (Hector Barreto), but they all have one thing in common — they got key jobs in the administration based on their loyalty to Bush and GOP connections. There might as well have been a “No Policy Experts Need Apply” sign hanging in the West Wing.

Unfortunately, the embarrassments of some of these hacks hasn’t curbed the White House’s enthusiasm for the appointments. Consider the latest in a series of examples.

A recent appointment may do little to quiet those complaints: The [Homeland Security Department] announced that a 28-year-old former White House staffer is heading a policy committee that gathers expert advice — on behalf of the president and the Homeland Security secretary — on key areas of homeland security, including threats to infrastructure and preventing terrorist attacks that use weapons of mass destruction.

Douglas L. Hoelscher is the new executive director of the Homeland Security Advisory Committees and the “primary representative” of department Secretary Michael Chertoff in dealing with more than 20 advisory boards. Among them is the Homeland Security Advisory Council, which includes such high-powered figures as Gov. Mitt Romney of Massachusetts, former Lockheed Chairman Norman Augustine, and former Defense and Energy Secretary James Schlesinger.

Hoelscher has no management experience, a review of his professional credentials shows. He came to government in 2001 as a low-level White House staffer, arranging presidential travel, according to news reports.

This guy is getting a powerful post, with daunting responsibilities. Hoelscher will be “contending with formidable voices in U.S. policy-making from the private sector, state and local government, and academia,” all of whom are “titans in their fields.” One group that Hoelscher will be coordinating with is the National Security Telecommunications Advisory Committee, which includes top executives from BellSouth, Boeing, and Microsoft.

At least Hoelscher fits the ideological profile. His Friendster profile lists William Bennett’s “The Death of Outrage: Bill Clinton and the Assault on American Ideals” as one of his favorite books.

And now Hoelscher is a right-hand man to the secretary of Homeland Security. Feel safer?

Wasn’t this the same kid that was operating as NASA’s policy organ??

Or are they all just starting to look alike??

  • “He came to government in 2001 as a low-level White House staffer, arranging presidential travel, according to news reports.

    Wait … Hoelscher wasn’t Bush’s “scheduler” who nixed the trip to the Taj Mahal, was he?

  • Would a terrorist attack make Bush more popular or less so? They seem so ‘unserious’ about national security that I sometimes wonder if they think that another attack would help them politically.

  • Friendster? He has a freakin’ friendster account!?! That really about sums it up doesn’t it? Now we know what he does at work.

    Anyway, all the cool kids are on facebook.

  • Crony Watch A partial list of some favorites

    Another suspect Bushie Kevin Warsh at Federal Reserve Board:
    “Other than a Harvard Law degree and four years in the White House, the only qualification that jumps out at you is the $165,000-plus his father-in-law has donated to various Republican committees since 2002.”

    Julie Meyers Bloggers across the Blogosphere — left, right and center — are teeing off on the Bush administration’s nomination of Julie Myers to be the head of the Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). http://www.professorbainbridge.com/2006/01/bush_cronyism.html

    George C. Deutsch, the young presidential appointee at NASA who told public affairs workers to limit reporters’ access to a top climate scientist and told a Web designer to add the word “theory” at every mention of the Big Bang.

    Bush Bypasses Senate on Two Crony Appointments
    Ellen Sauerbrey, a former state lawmaker and unsuccessful right-wing Republican candidate for governor of Maryland, will now move into her new office as Assistant Secretary of State for Refugees, Population, and Migration, a job with a billion-dollar budget and major voice in directing direct emergency relief operations around the world.

    Bush also named J. Dorrance Smith, a long-time television producer and Republican loyalist who helped organize the 2004 Republican National Convention, as the Pentagon’s chief spokesman.

    Bush has stacked his foreign advisory board with his Texas business pals, who stand to profit from access to CIA and military intelligence.

    We find that political-appointee-run programs earn systematically lower grades in most management areas.

    Political Appointees Re-Write Commerce Department Report On Offshore Outsourcing; Original Analysis Is Missing From Final Version

    Bush appointee at the Department of Veterans Affairs, Laura J. Miller, sent out a memo to local administrators telling them to stop healthcare outreach programs to vets so that the Department could save money. http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/000229.php

  • Don’t most of these appointments require Senate approval, also? They share some of the responsibility.

    Don’t get me wrong, Bush should never put most of them before the Senate, but the Senate, by not sending them packing directly, is complicit.

  • “There is no precedent in any modern White House for what is going on in this one: a complete lack of a policy apparatus,”

    No shit.

    Well, I’m not even as old as Douglas L. Hoelscher myself, but if I was picking someone to fill that position I would have gone for an experienced cop with a proven succes record, a moderate temper, a very deliberate and thoughtful approach to solving problems, and no ideological commitments within his discipline. More of a resume than a CV, if you can dig it. The result I’d be aiming for is someone rational, who would be attracted to ideas based on his proven eye for practical utility, rather than someone who squeezes things to fit his ego or his ideological theory of the world. But, that’s just me talking.

  • Well, I can see that at the ripe old age of 28 Hoelscher will bring with him a wealth of deep policy experience. That reading list is quite impressive as well.

    I guess that I’m old enough to say something that I would never hear myself saying. That kid is still wet behind the ears.

  • I wonder if Chertoff sat down in Hoelscher’s lap and said “Please, call me Pookie,” at any point during the interview process.

  • I guess it could be the case that Chertoff doesn’t want to fill the position with someone who is more useful serving in an operational capacity, but, all else being equal, I’d prefer a person that I could trust had the background to think about and communicate about the kinds of problems we were dealing with in an effective way. To me it does sound like a nepotism / sponsorship sort of thing.

  • This is all part of the Grover Norquist’s grand plan to drown the government in the bathtub, and from all accounts, it’s working.

  • The concern over National Policy and Grand Strategy soon degenerates, among LIBERALS, into a gossip session discussing persons considered and appointed. The masterful campaign of liberation in Afgnanistan showed the World a glorious grasp of operational skill in the service of a brilliant strategy. The magnificent victory in Iraq displayed the same splendid execution of a comprehensive plan of attack. Go to the back issues of THE NEW YORK TIMES and discover those conveniently forgotten premonitions of DOOM, soon dissipated by the glorious sun of victory. Now, America is engaged in the rebuilding and pacification of those ancient lands that are alomost as lawless and dangerous as Detroit and our National Capital. Reporters, who venture outside of the Green Zone and clear their heads of the Cognac fumes, discover a people rebuilding and the desperation tactics of the Enemy who explodes the innocent in order to cow American Liberals on the sea coasts. They are easily intimidated~~ Read their usual carping comments on this Opinion Site. Americans who seek American defeat in war are unfit to govern at any level. It worked once when the Wretched Nixon exposed himself to the Liberal dagger, but the Conservative Tendency has learned since then and elected better men. The President the Democrats gained from America’s defeat is, alas, with us yet, and vocal. His mean, simplistic chatter can only encourage our enemies and discourage the United States electorate from ever trusting a Democrat President again. But his utterances comprehend the nearest the Democrats can come to High Policy or a Grand Strategy. In his case personnel WAS truly policy!

  • Reporters, who venture outside of the Green Zone and clear their heads of the Cognac fumes, discover a people rebuilding…

    and what’s especially nice is that, because of those “desperation tactics,” they get to perform those acts of rebuilding over and over and over again. It’s a right-wing wet dream–more dead dark-skinned people, and more need for big contracts to cronies.

    Get this through your befuddled head, Asscat. This is not about “being intimidated”; it’s about the horrendous human and budgetary cost of carrying on a failed policy just so your preznit gets to feel like he’s better endowed than Daddy. And nobody here is “seeking defeat”–unless it’s Citizen Dick Cheney and Rumigula, who are very effectively showing the limits of American power and emboldening our enemies by continuing in this wrong-headed strategy. We just don’t want any more American kids blown to bits to give you and other Fighting Keyboarders more material for self-abuse.

    I will give you one thing: points for audacity in suggesting that liberals, those multi-headed Goldbergs of the coastal regions, are somehow turning a “magnificent victory” into tragedy and strategic disaster because we refuse to join you in clapping for Tinkerbell–really the only “grand strategy” a well-born imbecile like Bush can come up with. If we had such power, we’d use it to limit people like you to haranguing quiet drinkers at the local bar, rather than condemning all of us to this nightmare vision of our beloved country.

  • Asscat.

    Wow, waumpum

    Great discourse! Must you show the world the depths of the decline of public education in the US?

  • Hands over ears…….

    All together now…………

    La La La La La La La La La La La La ………………….

  • Get this through your heads, fellow Americans~~ Our food and fiber are grown in the Middle East. Our farmers’ tractors run on distilled ROCK OIL, and that ROCK OIL comes from the Middle East, through straits and maritime choke points historically under the control of Moslem Princes. The radical Moslems wish to supplant those Moslem Princes and discover whether they can resist the blonde bombshells of the Swedish Bikini Team when they travel on business. Meanwhile, they hate Americans and wish to make us suffer while we look foolish. It will take several decades to breed enough horses, mules, and oxen to provide the needed power down on the farm. It will take several years to redesign the farm implements (such as plows) to an animal muscle power scale. Far more land must be put to the plow, if grain and fodder are to be supplied to the agricultural draft animals needed if the ROCK OIL does not get through (and refined). The sacred environment will be disturbed if the Rock Oil is no longer available. That’s ONE BIG reason why defeat is not an option in the Middle East. AMERICA MUST HAVE ROCK OIL AT MARKET PRICES! And we will get it! We can do it civilized or we can treat the ARABS like we (Actually President Jackson) did the Civilized Tribes of Indians. But we WILL have the ROCK OIL! You can help our GOD-Granted President!

  • Just when you thought waumpuscat couldn’t get any more shrill, he tops it with a doozy of a spittle-flecked rant.

    Rock Oil!
    Moslems (not the contemporary Muslims)!
    Swedish Bikini Team!
    BREED HORSES, DAMN IT! THE END TIMES ARE NIGH!
    MORE BLOOD FOR OIL!
    JESUS LOVES BUSH!

    We really do need a better class of troll around here.

  • Waumpum, do you want to know the top five sources of US imported oil, in order of total petroleum (crude and refined) per day?

    Canada
    Mexico
    Venezuela
    Saudi Arabia
    Nigeria

    These are the only countries that imported more than a million barrels of oil a day into the United States in 2005. The sixth country, Angola, can barely manage half of that.

    Get your facts right, mate. It only took me fifteen seconds on Google to find this info.

    Here’s the relevant cite:

    http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html

    Of course, your native language might not be English, so I’m not sure how much good this will do.

  • Sorry. Saudi Arabia and Venezuela should be switched on that list. Didn’t read the table closely enough.

  • Speaking of surprising appointments, what about Wuampuscat and Bogie as in-house Whitehouse reporters, with their creative thinking and powerful communication skills, they could help Scotty spread the fog.
    God knows their talents are being wasted here.

  • Okay, so maybe it should be referred to as geological plunder?

    Neh…

    I see too many people having meetings and writing position papers, and darn few people doing any research. Then again, running a VW on 100% biodiesel just isn’t as “peppy” as having a “sport utility vehicle” so that you can visit the parkland that you think is “the countryside” on the weekend…

    Our descendants are gonna have to live with what we’re doing. Period. The Arabian peninsula will likely be pumped dry within the next century, and hopefully by then their benign dictators will have figured out a way to keep their palaces going and theri people from starving. Yeah, right…

    At the same time, isolationist Americans are going to have to realize that this is now a very small world, and most of its population does not like us – we have something they want. Our standard of living. Our freedom to say nasty things about our elected officials (some of the folks in these countries cannot envision a bloodless secession of power – they assume we’re weak, and they see weakness as a reason to exploit). Our beautiful Hollywood starlets…

    In the meantime, the benign dictators will doubtless kill of thousands, if not millions, of their own people.

    In the past few years, I’ve learned murder and genocide are okay. Just so they’re not here. Doesn’t matter. Doesn’t matter if one tribe hasn’t liked the other for the past 400 years. Doesn’t matter if the patriarch of the family wants to make sure his ol’ lady remains his property, and stays home barefoot and pregnant. Doesn’t matter that he insists that his female children are circumcised, so that when they’re given as property in a business deal, they’ll make good cooks, and won’t stray… Doesn’t matter at all. I’ve learned a LOT from the liberal side of life.

    Obviously, Hitler must have just been misunderstood.

  • Note to moron from bogieville…just because we can’t fix all the world’s problems does not somehow make it ok that we go and create others instead. Your analysis is simplistic and idiotic. Your obvious idolatry of the wampussycat writing style is pathetic. Go away and do us all a favor. If not, I put three on the ignore list, unless of course you are just #2 in disguise, in which case, excuse me for not ignoring you already. BTW, did i hapen to mention, MORON??? Have you thought for a second about why people dont like us? They seemed to like us a whole lot more before 2000. Ever wonder why? And do you know the first thing about energy economics? No, i didnt think so. So dont talk about it.

  • Right, Bogieville/Bogie/Waumpuscat, it’s the liberal’s fault that the world hates us.

    Of course, Bush turning a largely blind eye to the genocide in Darfur, Ivory Coast, Congo, etc., is perfectly acceptable to you, isn’t it? Democracy is only for those easily manipulated black/brown people who have the natural resources we can exploit, isn’t that right? Hate to apply the “building democracy” standard on even-handed global basis.

    Nor does it matter to you that America hardly embodies the democratic ideals it preaches. You know … equal rights for women, reproductive choice, equal rights for homosexuals, voting rights, equal rights for black and brown people, religious tolerance … the list is endless. Suffice to say it’s the conservative fundamentalist Christians who are steadily chipping away at the hard-won freedoms we enjoy.

    Of course, the reason the “world” may hate us is that we meddle and undermine those fledgling democratic institutions not of our choosing. Hamas wins big in the Palestinian Territories, and Condi Rice moves immediately to sabotage the new government. See also Iraq before Saddam Hussein, Iran before the Shah, and Musharraf in Pakistan. All of which the Republicans had a rather heavy hand in.

    Of course Bogieville/Bogie/Waumpuscat, the stuggle to bring freedom to the unwashed masses and their oilfields is so important you can’t bring yourself to actively particpate … as in joining the military … as in volunteering for an infantry assignment in Iraq . Why not?

  • Last I looked, the same bunch was trying its best to blow us up while William J. Clinton was in office… So was that Bush’s fault too? This bunch was invading our embassies and kidnapping our people while Carter was in office – was that Bush’s fault too? I did notice one thing – Khaqaquhafrickithowtheheckdowespellitthisweekdaffi has been really darn quiet about the Great Satan lately… These cultures understand _force_ and they see negotiation or compromise as weakness. I’ve had people from that region as clients, and friends, and as long as you understand that, you’re good… just don’t ride in a car with one of ’em driving, because you’re gonna need a change of shorts… I don’t care who his daddy was, or how big that Mercedes was – I’m sure it was shipped from the factory with a perfectly functional German brake pedal, and there’s absolutely no excuse for ignoring it. Oh, man, I’d rather go on training missions with National Guard pilots again… “Gee, Bubba, watch me do this!”

    The conflict in the middle east is hundreds, if not thousands, of years old. As _the_ world power, in terms of technology and individual economic impact, should we wash our hands of the whole mess, and sit back and smirk, telling each other how smart we are, as the brown people kill each other, or should we attempt to bring stabilization to the area?

    Remember – the world is much smaller today than it was in 1905… Much less 1505… The caliphates do not have to muster an army with pack animals, and cross thousands of miles in a journey that will take years. We’re less than 24 hours from darn near anywhere on the globe.

    Now, I’m not a fundamonkey… I don’t particularly like ’em. And I’ve had the misfortune to meet some of the “biggies.”

    It’s a little late for the Waumpuscat to volunteer to join the Army… He has already been there, done that, got a t-shirt that sez he belongs to a club that most folks couldn’t last the first week of… He was involved in something about making sure that we didn’t grow up speaking German, and that groups of non-Aryan people actually had a _chance_ to grow up… I don’t think the Airborne forces took draftees either… Me, I did my stretch in the middle of the Reagan era… Call it a family thing.

    Heck, if they’d take me, I’d be in Iraq. It’s something that needs to be done, and quite pragmatically, I’d rather see it done _there_ than in New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Boston… Hey, wait a minute… Let’s revise that… Danville, Albequerque, Hamilton, or Wentzville. I’ve got friends over there right now, and from what they’re saying, what you see on the news isn’t quite the way things are… You don’t trust your leaders – does that mean that you _do_ trust your mass media?

    How far are you ready to go to back up your isolationism? Are you ready to stand by and watch a young woman essentially sold into slavery? Are you ready to see an entire village hit with mustard gas? Put your money where your mouth is – how far do _your_ ideals carry you? And will you be able to sleep at night?

  • And was Reagan’s retreat from Beirut Bush’s fault? Was his old man keeping Saddam in power Bush’s fault? And the “the same bunch was trying its best to blow us up while William J. Clinton was in office” is still out there.
    And that “force” that was supposedly responsible for Libya turning over its primitive WMD program is being given the bird by Iran, North Korea, and now rebel groups in Nigeria.
    And do you really think the “caliphates” main go is to conquer the world, as well as the United States? And if you were an al Queda cell-member, and see how the US is tied up fighting in Iraq, would you a) go over and fight the best troops in the world, or b) go to the US and drive a truck bomb into a nuclear power plant.
    And you criticize people for not trusting Bush, but did you trust Clinton during the 1990s? Why or why not?
    And who’s to say the Army won’t take you back? Did you even try? We had a couple of guys in our company that joined when they were past 30. So why not give it a shot?
    And what “good news” are we missing here in America? Please fill us in. And you never answered prm’s question about intervention into Africa. Surely aren’t those people worthy of salvation?

  • I’ve got a GREAT idea!

    Why don’t you pot smoking freaks get some jobs and read a history book! Wouldn’t it be a wonderful world if you jack-asses actually had a clue what you were talking about?

    Wow…

  • Naw — that reading thing is so passe. To make a halfway intelligent response to a thread would require actual reading of the post and comments instead of just picking the last post of the day and dropping in to leave some unintelligible gibbersh. At least they’re consistent about their actions.

    BTW — Bogie, you never did respond about the Abu Ghraib torture video.

  • Well, the religous fanatics would like world domination. On _any_ side, they want you to believe what they believe. I think it’s a sort of wish for validation. At any rate, the Islamic fundamonkeys (as opposed to the Christian fundamonkeys…) seem to be a bit more… how should I put this… “emphatic” about how one is either part of the group, or part of the evil mass of heathen infidels standing between brave Jihadists and 72 or so virgins (you know, I don’t think I’ve seen that many virgins in one place since grade school – are these guys child molesters or something? Maybe that’s why Michael Jackson has been hanging out over there… Heck, at 2:00 ayem, my brain works in mysterious ways…). The Christian fundamonkeys will generally talk you half to death, but I find that I can generally avoid them without fear of explosive detonations…

    As for Africa – I think we need to be in there too – UN too, for all the good it’ll do, since the UN seems to be mostly a political soapbox. Let’s try to keep the different groups of people from killing each other in wholesale lots – my theory would involve offing the leadership, then explaining the facts of life to the new leadership. Repeat as necessary. This could end up saving a lot of _innocent_ lives.

    The Army doesn’t want 45 year olds with arthritic knees… Not everyone is of “grad student” age…

    As for Abu Ghraib… I don’t think I’m the Bogie you are referring to, but I’ll give it a shot. That wasn’t torture. Let’s be serious. You can’t institute a good torture regimen without pulling someone’s fingernails out, beatings, breaking bones and leaving them to heal improperly, attaching live hungry rats in cages to genitalia, etc., etc… (never actually particpated, but I did once see this weird movie while I was staying at a Holiday Inn Express…)

    Now that’s torture. That and Barry Mannilow.

  • Bogieville. Youre a fucking moron, in case you didnt hear it the first time. Abu Ghraib wasnt torture…hmmm…ok, you want some of that? Because Im sure a lot of people here would like you to try it and then say it isnt torture. You fucking dolt.

  • As an outsider looking in do’nt worry about the middle east terrorists You have a swag of them already wrecking the USA. in the whitehouse.

  • The Rebirth of Outrage: George Bush and tha Assault on American Governance, Fiscal Health, Public Ethics, Social Cohesion, Moral Standing, and Global Influence

    Any takers?

    Too much for one author (even one who doesn’t spend countless lost weekends at the casino) – maybe a multipart, multiyear effort, like The Cambridge History of the Modern World or something.

  • I think that the main problem with Bush was that he was trying to be all things to all people – assumed that the views of the population of the US as a whole was similar to that of Texas.

    So he’s got the diplomacy of a far right Texan, and he’s spending like a New York democrat.

    Tell y’all what… Put the prisoners from Abu Ghraib in a room with a few of the US vets who survived the “enlightenment” of the Hanoi Hilton, and let ’em swap stories for a while. Or maybe let’s see if we can round up a few of the _remaining_ survivors of the Bataan death march. Or maybe let’s see if there’s still anyone around from Hitler’s camps…

    If the Abu Ghraib prisoners are crying “torture,” then they’re pussies.

    Of course, that Englund chick wasn’t much to look at – but our guys in Hanoi were forced to look at Fonda…

    The horror… The horror…

  • To support an expansion of foreign intervention, especially into Africa, would require military personnel levels and a defense budget a bit more than it was at the height of the Vietnam and Korean Wars (~1.5 million active duty Army, 305,000 active duty Marines, per DOD’s Personnel and Procurement website), or roughly 2 to 3 times the current ground force level we have now.
    Not to mention the massive increase in sea and airlift capabilities that would be required to sustain overseas deployment.
    We would also have to increase defense spending from its current level (~3.9-4% of GDP, or about 1% more than under Clinton) to the level of the two wars I mentioned (~13% during Korea & ~9% during Vietnam).
    As a percentage of discretionary spending (per the Office of Management and Budget) during Vietnam, defense took in 70%. Currently, it’s percentage is about 50%, about the same level it was under Clinton.
    So we can say we need to go over here and over there, but until this administration stops pretending to be a “wartime presidency” (takes more than landing on a carrier and wearing a flight suit), we shouldn’t be thinking up grand ideas of saving the world from itself.

  • “Heck, if they’d take me, I’d be in Iraq. It’s something that needs to be done, and quite pragmatically, I’d rather see it done _there_ than in New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Boston… Hey, wait a minute… Let’s revise that… Danville, Albequerque, Hamilton, or Wentzville. I’ve got friends over there right now, and from what they’re saying, what you see on the news isn’t quite the way things are… You don’t trust your leaders – does that mean that you _do_ trust your mass media?

    Bogieville/Bogie/Waumpuscat,

    The military is really having a hard time finding new people to put in the ground. And given who’s being sent over there, you should have no problem enlisting. Do you need a ride to the recruitment office?

  • prm,
    OR, we could send press gangs onto our country’s universities and put all those uber-patriotic College Republicans. How can these nabobs go to school while their nation’s military is desperate for warm bodies to send overseas? Have they no shame or sense of duty for our country?
    Also, I want to see Kris Benson’s Bush-worshipping crazy bitch wife get sent overthere.

  • prm, you obviously have no clue as to military recruiting requirements. As one who has been there, done that, I doubt if a ride to to the local recruiting office (which happens to be within a mile of my house…) would suffice. Last I saw, they don’t take 80 year old WWII veterans or 45 year olds with bad knees…

    So many of you folks really have no clue. And what is this tendency that I see in a lot of you guys’ posts toward cussing? Campers, that is a sure sign of an inadequate vocabulary. Y’all really _should_ cut that shit out (grin). You’ll appear _far_ more mature.

    As far as Africa, it shouldn’t require full-blown us/vs/them warfare – that’d be counterproductive. Win their hearts and minds, and their asses will follow. I’m not really sure how the isolationists can reconcile their world views… We can sit back, and watch the world turn to crap, and do nothing (and get blamed for that), or we can try to do something (and get blamed for that).

    How many of you folks think that the Iraqi people would be better off if things had stayed the same?

  • No, we don’t need 45 -80 year olds joining up, but the Army sure is having a hard time getting anyone younger to sign up. Any suggestions?
    What’s wrong with swearing? Thanks to my drill sergeants at Benning, and my first PSG at Ord, I now have so many ways to express my feelings using “fuck”.
    Wasn’t the invasion of Irag “full blown us/vs/them warfare?” Remember Shock and Awe? And if Iraq is your example of “winning hearts and minds”, we shouldn’t be talking about intervening anywhere.
    And finally, without digressingi into “grizzled old man” mode, what clue is being missed?

  • The Clue Bus? Well, let’s see – I mention that His Waumposity is a WWII vet, and I comment that Unca Suga ain’t after 45 year olds with arthritis, and y’all still insist on offering me a ride to the recruiter’s? Now, maybe dope’s a lot better than it was on April 20, 1984 (hey, I was determined to be All I Could Be, and lemme tell you, the day before I reported was “interesting”).

    We went through the biggest baddest army in the middle east faster than Sherman went through Georgia… That sent a message. Now, that message is being reversed every time CNN finds something else that they can gloat over. Too bad Sherman’s no longer with us…

    You don’t have to fight ’em all. You just have to fight the ones who want to fight. The population will take care of things eventually. Look at how many turned out to vote. Look at them going back to non-fundamonkey schools… Hey, wait a minute – do you support Iraq fundamonkeys, but dislike US fundamonkeys. I wanna get that straight…

    For a true rhapsody of “fuck,” you really need to check out the 90 second Scarface viral flick that someone just cut together.

    And do you think that the Iraqis would be better off if the status quo had remained?

  • And do you think that the Iraqis would be better off if the status quo had remained? Sadly, yes.

    “Iraq: Better off under Saddam”

    Poll: Iraqis out of patience

    Secret MoD poll: Iraqis support attacks on British troops

    Post-Saddam gain worth the pain: Iraqis
    Baghdad residents say: “But they are not convinced that Iraq is better off now – 47 per cent said the country was worse off than before the invasion and 33 per cent said it was better off.”

    There’s a lot of polling data our there, but, it looks as though the farther away from the initial invasion that you get, the more the Iraqi people themselves are deciding the toll on their daily lives makes our little adventure not worth the cost to them. It might just be a minor reaction to bombing their infrastructure into the stoneage and killing a 100,000 + of their people. But hey, sometimes people overreact.

    In answer to your query about liking their fundamonkeys — a lot of Middle Eastern policy experts are saying that we gave them a big helping hand — I concur.

    In the end, I think that you are looking at the situation through a false prism of American hegemeny, while in reality it’s become apparent to our allies and enemies alike that we’re more of a paper tiger.

  • I just wanted to say that we should support the Bush Administration’s version of affirmative action.

  • marcus,
    didn’t you know? You have to destroy a country in order to save it.

    As far as Iraq being the biggest, baddest army in the Middle East,……maybe during the 80s, and up to the start of Desert Storm. After that, it’s really questionable how much of a threat Iraq was to its neighbors.

    And what “message” did the invasion send? Don’t get into a standup fight with the US, but instead use unconventional tactics? And how is CNN reversing said “message”? Like I said before, the rest of the Axis of Evil isn’t buying into this “message”.

    And I know I was just an 11Charlie corporal, but doesn’t the military normally “fight the ones who want to fight”? And if your definition of the population taking care of things means that the nations tears itself apart, then you are spot on, sir.

    When you explain what a “fundamonkey” is, I’ll let you know what I think.

    If the reason for going to war is just, then it should stand up to any scrutiny or criticism, should it not?

  • P.S.,
    After you posted that you were 45 with arthritis, and waumpuscat was 80, did anyone post afterthat wanting to take you the the recruiting center? I said that we should get College Republicans (and crazy-ass bitch Anna Benson) to get a good taste of what true patriotism means. You wished Sherman was still around. Well, he had a rather good quote on the matter of chickenhawks:

    “It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”

  • 2Manchu — After completing 4 biographies written by war vets, and having heard lectures by an additional 6 vets, (this is all for a college course that I am taking) they all hate war and the devastation that it wreaks. The ones that spoke to us don’t just hate what happens to the guys on our side, they hate what happens to the civilians. Most of them seem to have come to the conclusion that the enemy soldiers are not unlike themselves, sent to do inhuman acts by politicians who use blood and violence to achieve their political aims.

    We have a true Baron von Bushmark leading our country.

  • marcus,
    I couldn’t agree with you more. It was my experience that the only people who enjoy war had not seen war, or if they had, were psychotic sociopaths.
    To lay another famous quote:
    “The soldier above all others prays for peace, for it is the soldier who must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war.”
    -Douglas MacArthur

  • Come to think of it, I just remembered that I have a friend with bad knees and a bad back who went off to serve in Afghanistan at age 45. Of course him being an Army Ranger may have made him someone with special skills that were highly needed. Just sayin’.

  • Well, prm is the fellow who offered us a ride… After that bit had been mentioned…

    I’m wondering… Are there any women here? Would _you_ want to live in a society that essentially insisted upon slavery of women?

    It seems there are plenty of theorists here, but few people realists…

    If I have a choice between fighting a war here, or fighting a war there, I’ll pick there any day.

  • If you are comparing pre-Saddam Iraq to post-Saddam Iraq, then from what I’ve gathered on the news, women’s rights is either the same or in some cases worse. I’m not saying that Iraqi women had it better under Saddam, but maybe you should wait until the situation there shows actual improvement, one would hope. Maybe once Jo-Jo the Idiot Circus Boy and his Band of Fools leave the White House.

    It’s funny you call us theorists, when it was this administration who ignored all of the realistic assessments that correctly predicted how an invasion of Iraq would have a negative impact on both the war on terror and US foreign relations. Prayer and wishful thinkful seem to be the norm for the neo-cons and their associates.

    And one thing I learned in the Army: choices are non-existent. This isn’t the English Civil War, where we meet with the enemy and agree on a time and place to fight. Terrorists aren’t going to say “you know, let’s go to where the Americans have a large chunk of their Army backed by air support.” They will hit us where we are the most vulnerable, just like we would. That’s what terrorists do. And right now, even after billions of dollars and thousands of rolls of duct tape and plastic sheets, this country is just as vulnerable as it was on 9/11.

  • Okay…

    Inside Box A
    No voting
    No education
    No driving
    Dictatorial leadership that enforces manadate through terror, rape, and mass murder.

    Inside Box B
    Voting
    Education
    Driving
    Elected leadership that is starting to actually get it together.

    Maybe I just don’t get it…

  • Ya know, we could go back and forth about this point or that. But I would just like to make a comment:
    I did not support the invasion of Iraq. Not because I felt it was morally wrong or an attempt to control Iraq’s oil. My main concern was that it was going to eat up our military and national resources in fighting the REAL war, against bin Laden in Afghanistan. I thought that if we wanted to stabilize the Middle East, that nation, which had not known peace since the 1970s, was the best place to start. Our support from the rest of the world was at an all-time high after 9/11, and we should have put that support to good use in producing a country that could become a model for the rest of the region. Instead, we have a reduced commitment by the US, with an Afghan government that’s more a city council of Kabul than a legitimate national government.
    Then there’s Iraq. Even though the two main reasons for invading (WMDs, connections with bin Laden) were incorrect, we ARE there, we have troops in country, and even though leaving is something more and more people in this country support, we are going to leave a bigger mess than was there before.
    So that’s the conundrum, either leave and face a civil war, or stay and have more brave American men and women get killed or ripped to pieces, and hope that eventually someone in Washington comes up with a plan to succeed.

  • I think it’s something more than a black/white (or pos/neg or 1/0 or however it is politically correct to phrase it…) situation… It’s shades of grey (oops – there go the other options…).

    I think we’re right to be there – it was something that needed doing. Even if you completely discount the evidence that Hussein gassed his own citizenry… I think there will be civil war for a time, but I also think that it will die down a lot more rapidly than a lot of folks think. The Islamic fundamentalists think that they can drive us out, and re-own the country. Thing is, most of the folks have tasted freedom (how ’bout that voter turnout!), and they like it. There’s a small group of people who are killing their own people (well, probably other tribes/religious sects… is that okay?), and they’re going to end up running out of support. We’re already phasing out, but if we just pull up stakes, it’s going to degenerate horridly. What would your solution be?

  • If you’re referring to the gassing of Kurds in Halabja in 1988, which killed 5,000 civilians, then I would have to ask why the Reagan administration refused to take action then? Reagan then vetoed the Senate’s Prevention of Genocide Act later that year (a direct response to Halabja), which would have placed extremely tough economci sanctions on Iraq.
    In 1989, Saddam had destroyed over 4,000 Kurdish villages, and what was the newly elected Bush administration’s reaction? To issue a national security directive that stated “normal relations between the United States and Iraq would serve our longer-term interests and promote stability in both the Gulf and the Middle East.”
    So how come we are “right to be there” now, and not back in 1989?

    Islamic fundamentalists never owned Iraq, Saddam did, but that’s water under the bridge.

    So does your support for Middle East democracy also extend to Hamas? They were duly elected by the Palestinians, and so shouldn’t the Bush administration deal with them as they would any other democracy? I’m not objecting to elections in the Middle East, I wholly support it, but when it comes to this administration’s attitude of only supporting democracy when it suits our needs, I have a problem with that. No, I do not support Hamas’ stand on Israel, but I’m sure they’ll soften up when realpoliticks take over, just as Sharon did a year ago.

    Tribal/sect killing is just as bad as insurgency killing, so don’t reduce yourself to patronizing.

    My solution? Unfortunately, it means keeping troops there for a little while longer, but we definitely need to: implement a Vietnam like-CAPS program to better relations between US forces and Iraqis; increase our training of Iraqi forces (it amazes me how our country can train thousands of US citizens to be the best troops in the world each year, yet we can’t do it in Iraq); increase aid to Marshall Program-level, one that is solely geared towards helping the Iraqis and not contractors, to boost employment.

    Those are my cracy ideas to reducing the insurgency, but as for the future of the country, I really can’t say. You simply cannot waltz into a country and expect Jeffersonian democracy with a free market economy to take shape just because we the United States think it’s the best idea. You are talking about a civilization that has a history a hell of a lot longer than ours, and to simply ignore it, even with the perception of good intentions, can only lead to failure.

  • It’s the culture…

    Iraqi (and middle eastern troops in general) tend to be a little tough to train. You get a LOT of “Allah will guide my hand,” which sounds okay in theory, but Allah can’t shoot worth a damn. Ran into one of same breed in basic training – only he was hopin’ that Jesus was an NRA member… Not. There are also tendencies to hoard data/knowledge. This can be serious. If Muhammad knows how to maintain a vehicle, that makes him valuable. He’s not going to want to cross-train Abdul, because that would decrease his value. That is a _very_ real problem. There is not a lot of team play going on. This gets bad when you have a group of soldiers, and the radio operator, or the guy who knows how to aim the mortar, or the guy who knows how to field-strip the SAW, or whatever, is suddenly out of commission… Nobody else knows how to do that… Oops. There’s also an officer corps who thinks that all they have to do is “lead.” It’s hard to explain to them that they need to know their mens’ jobs – maybe not to do ’em as well, but to at least know what they are…

    They also aren’t too big on weapons maintenance – that’s why we’ve gone out and bought a whole buncha AKs… You can drag those suckers through the desert, and they’ll function just fine. With an M16 variant, you’re gonna be alternately yanking and banging that forward assist, using words that Allah wouldn’t approve of.

  • Allah shot pretty well against the Soviets. And the a-holes shooting at our guys have pretty good aim. Maybe we’re just training the wrong guys. Kind of like a war we fought a while back.

  • The Afghani troops are superior, training wise, to the Iraqis… In part because the recruiting base for the Iraqis seems to be cities… From what I’ve heard, our training people are generally leaning toward “police” skills over “military” skills.

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