The missing element of the Jeremiah Wright flap — an actual controversy

While the political world waits for Barack Obama’s speech on race in America to get underway in Philadelphia, it’s worth taking a moment to consider what, exactly, the “controversy” about the Rev. Jeremiah Wright is all about. Because, at this point, I’m no longer sure.

For example, John McCain appeared on Fox News late last week, and Sean Hannity noted the questions about Obama’s Christian congregation and his former pastor. “Would you go to a church like that?” Hannity asked. McCain responded, “Obviously, that would not be my choice. But I do know Sen. Obama. He does not share those views.”

And that, to me, is effectively the end of the story. Obama “does not share those views.” He’s denounced Wright’s inflammatory remarks, he’s removed Wright from having any role in his presidential campaign, he offers voters a message that is at odds with Wright’s more divisive sounding comments, and no one, even the Republican presidential nominee, seriously believes that Obama embraces Wright’s more inflammatory views.

So, what are we talking about again? Ezra had an item that mirrored my thinking on the subject.

Does anyone believe that Barack Obama shares Jeremiah Wright’s political views? Do folks think Obama believes AIDS a biological weapon made by the American government to harm Africans? That Obama is a great fan of Farrakhan? That he thinks 9/11 was a merited attack that represented our “chickens coming home to roost?”

So far as I can tell, no one really thinks Obama agrees with Wright. They just know that Wright’s comments are going to be politically troublesome for Obama. And so they’re covering them as if they’re a huge problem for Obama. But there’s a disconnect there. Such views are supposed to be troublesome because they signal that Obama agrees with them. But if no one believes that Obama agrees with them, then they’re just the views of some dude who knows Obama, and talks to him about spirituality. The controversy rests on everyone’s ability to treat it as something no one seems to believe it is.

I’m certainly not blind to the political realities. Wright’s sermons included some pretty provocative charges.

But Obama’s conservative critics (and even a few of his liberal detractors) seem to be making assumptions based on almost paranoid notions of secrecy.

In other words, I get the sense that Obama’s opponents, who hope to capitalize on the Wright flap, are arguing that the senator’s denunciations aren’t convincing. Obama says he rejects Wright’s inflammatory ideas, but maybe he secretly agrees with him. Obama claims he wants to bring people together around a sense of common purpose, but maybe he secretly shares the views of his former pastor.

This sounds silly — because it is — but that seems to be the basis for most of the controversy. It’s no longer enough to judge a presidential candidate on his or her public record and stated beliefs; we must now go further and extrapolate beliefs and motives — which do not appear to exist — based on associations the candidate has with others.

But isn’t that precisely why guilt by association is considered a fallacy? Because it requires an unjustified leap of assumption?

Much of the flap seems to boil down to Wright’s “God damn America” remark. Fine. But John Cole reminded me of something very important, which helps expand the context a bit.

A few months ago, several Republican presidential candidates appeared in Florida for a “Values Voter” debate focused on the concerns of the religious right movement. Before the debate began, organizers invited a church choir to sing a rendition of “God Bless America,” but in this case, the lyrics were rewritten. Instead of a song about “the land that I love,” and “home sweet home,” this version condemned the United States. The song received an enthusiastic and positive response from the conservative Republicans on hand for the event, including the candidates (McCain wasn’t in attendance).

I wrote at the time: “I know it gets tiresome to hear ‘if this were a Democrat…’ but in this case, I think it’s particularly appropriate. I’m trying to imagine the response if a number of progressive activists groups got together to host a presidential candidate forum, and to kick things off, they sang a rewritten version of ‘God Bless America’ that disparaged the United States and reprimanded the American people.”

Not a single Republican denounced this — and not a single Republican was asked by a reporter if they would.

Do you ever get the sense there’s a double standard here?

Nice post. The double standard relative to McCain on Hagee and Republicans on white evangelical ministers more generally is quite striking. McCain gets away with saying he denounces Hagee’s comments if they were anti-Catholic, but pleads that there may be more context so maybe they weren’t really anti-Catholic. In other words, he’s doing some fancy verbal dancing. Not so with Obama who is addressing this (and the even more bogus Farrakhan issue) straight up.

  • Values Voter is another name for a “stick my nose in somebody else’s business” voter- they forgot the line “judge not, lest ye be judged” line.

    but it’s not my place to judge their motives 😉

  • Aha! “I know Senator Obama” is McCain’s way of saying “…as far as I know.” He’s deliberately stirring the pot!

    This is the most horrendous thing anyone has ever said in any campaign ever!

  • Obama has co-sponsored a bill making federal spending more transparent (www.usaspending.gov) . He’s released his tax returns, which no other candidate has. His released every earmarked he’s requested, even the controversial U of C one. He’s sat down with the Tribune editorial staff (what, 36 reporters?) and for over an hour and a half answered EVERY question they asked him until they had no more (imagine either Clinton or McCain doing that). I can’t remember any politician being more transparent than he has been. But really for those that still think he’s a “secret Muslim-manchrian candidate-terrorist plant” nothing short of a full on Vulcan mind meld will ever convince them he’s on the level.

  • The double standard is that if Hillary went to a church for 20 years whose pastor spewed this type of hate, you’d be screaming about her racism. Wait, Obama supporters ARE screaming about her racism and she didn’t support, donate to and sit through sermons by a race antagonizer. She just worked for 35 years against racism…now THAT’s a double standard.

  • “Do you ever get the sense there’s a double standard here”

    The problem is that The Base believes in all this Value Voter / Justice Sunday nonsense. So Republicans, don’t worry about this thing too much. What the footsoldiers do on their downtime is ignored to the extent possible.

    Obama has to thread the needle here. He’s gonna try to be post racial but acknowledge injustices of the past all while calming the rust-belt raygun democrat types that he is someone they can support.

  • But isn’t that precisely why guilt by association is considered a fallacy? Because it requires an unjustified leap of assumption?

    Yes.

    And a lot of people routinely make similar leaps of assumption, like the 70% who all-too-easily believed the Moron when he implied that Saddam was involved in 9/11, and another large fraction who will never vote for a black man, because they associate black people with crime and all manner of unsavory behavior.

    Unfortunately the microwave media doesn’t have time for us to think this through, they need to sell us a few more things and thereby avert the collapse of civilization.

    “We’re consumers, Jim. Yeah. Okay, okay. Buy a lot of stuff, you’re a good citizen. But if you don’t buy a lot of stuff, if you don’t, what are you then, I ask you? What? Mentally ill. Fact, Jim, fact – if you don’t buy things – toilet paper, new cars, computerized yo-yos, electrically-operated sexual devices, servo systems with brain-implanted headphones, screwdrivers with miniature built-in radar devices, voice-activated computers…”

    http://www.videosift.com/video/12-Monkeys-Scene-Introducing-Jeffrey-Brad-Pitt

    The plague of madness. It isn’t just for monkeys anymore.

  • She just worked for 35 years against racism…

    True! And she cured the blind and walked on water as well!

  • For me, I see it as a major obstacle to the nomination and a serious handicap in the general election with a general public that still believes lots of dumb things that just aren’t true. (i.e. Iraq had something to do with 9/11.)

    I don’t have to disapprove of either Obama or his pastor for that to be true.

    He’s new. He’s unknown. Now something controversial comes out regarding someone who’s not just his pastor, but his admitted mentor and role model. Of course people are worried. It’s not liberal blog readers he has to convince, it’s the casual consumer of TV news.

    The campaign trail is an obstacle course in which a candidate has to get from one end to the other without any serious (and possibly fatal) explosions. This is a big “boom,” and to pretend otherwise won’t make it go away. Maybe today’s speech will help, but I have to wonder. Most voters just aren’t that nuanced.

  • g8grl blathers:

    “…you’d be screaming about her racism. Wait, Obama supporters ARE screaming about her racism…”

    Ironic post, since the topic was fallacies of association.

    Support Obama = screaming about racism.

    Good to know there’s still some reasonable Hillary folks out there.

  • MSNBC’s coverage of the Obama speech was hosted by former Republican Congressman Joe Scarborough, with analysis by former Republican presidential candidate Pat Buchanan, and current Republican strategist Joe Watkins, all balanced by … a single Washington Post reporter, who I guess was supposed to represent the Democratic Party?

    It was funny hearing Buchanan denounce someone else as an “agent of intolerance” though.

  • The double standard is that if Hillary went to a church for 20 years whose pastor spewed this type of hate, you’d be screaming about her racism. -g8grl

    How could you possibly know that? You’re basing you accusation of a double standard on a assumption. That belies all logic.

    You do know what happens when you assume, right?

  • This isn’t about whether or not whether Obama was present at these sermons or not. Its about whether or not he had heard about them before which he had according to his own advisors when he announced his candidency. Sen Obama ran on his judgement whereas everyone knows that republicans have no judgement. Wether or not Obama gets the nomination he will lose in November. This will not go away no matter how you spin it it is bad for our party. All leading up to this has been softball up until now. THIS IS SERIOUS FOR OUR PARTY FOLKS BELIEVE IT OR NOT.

    Chuck Todd said this morning that if Obama doesn’t hit a homerun in this up coming speech he is through and unelectable.

  • It never ceases to amaze me that people will deny that the Clinton campaign engaged in race-baiting. But they did. The Clintons are very cynical. They are the types who will throw people or groups under the bus if it suits their purpose. Now that is no excuse for Rev. Wright’s comments but how does that make Obama a race-baiter when he has been trying to avoid the topic like it was the plague. His avoidance of this issue has lead to him addressing it head on when he should have done that at the beginning.

    Speaking of double standards, the media did a piss poor job of covering the church. The media provided little context. How can a church be described as a black separatist church when it is part of denomination that is predominately white? They could have also shown sermons given by Wright where he isn’t inflammatory. They could have done so many other things.

  • IMO The Obama detractors are not so much against Obama as they are about getting even against Republicans and what better way than use Hillary. Damn what is best to solving our countrys problems it’s about sticking to the man , in this case the Republicans and all those who tried to make life miserable for the Clintons.
    It has become more about the Clintons than what is right and what is best to heal the deep divide within our country.
    Deep down I believe Clinton supporters know this.

  • Racer X doesn’t deny the hypocrisy. Nice. Do you deny that Obama supporters have been screaming about Hillary being a racist on much less than a CLOSE, 20 year association with someone of Rev. Wright’s ilk? No. Time to be honest with yourself. Maybe it’s not right or just that he’s being tainted by this association, but if you stand near a puddle, you’re likely to get splashed…especially if you stand there for 20 years.

  • It’s easy for some people to justify the spewing of hatred, just look at those same people’s comments in other threads when it comes to bashing Clinton.

    Barack Obama has admittedly known about some of his pastors videos a year ago. The only logical conclusion is that he intentionally sabotaged the democrats chances of winning in 2008.

  • oops and there goes Micheline calling the Clinton’s race-baiters. I guess my assumption was a pretty good one, right doubtful?

  • How could you possibly know that?

    Because she is a suburban, northern state Methodist. They talk about hotdish and jello salad. If it gets more exciting than that, some of the older folks get worn out.

    Look, I don’t think Obama believes what Wright does, either. But politics is not reality, politics is – right or wrong, better or worse – perception.

    This is a serious political problem for Obama.

    The potency in this isn’t that hard to understand. Guilt by association is wrong. But this is not merely a matter of showing up to a church a few times with a radical preacher. Obama went a lot farther than that when he chose – no one forced it on him – to refer to Wright as his “spiritual advisor.” Obama has gone to this church and listened to those vitriolic sermons for years.

    I think it is fair to ask “who chooses someone this ranting as a spirtual advisor?” I think it fair to ask “if the hatefulness really bothered me, would I keep attending rather than changing churches?”

    There is an interesting problem here for believing, practicing Christians: if one argues “it doesn’t mean Obama really believes it” then why go to church at all – why believe and practice? And if your faith life has meaning, if it is chosen thoughtfully, than why shouldn’t you be associated with those choices?

    This is a great object lesson of why politicians should not mix religion and politics in the first place – it opens precisely these kinds of doors. Obama has long mixed a lot of religion in his campaigning (homophobic gospel singers in S Carolina anyone?); now that it comes back to bite him it is hard to have a ton of sympathy.

  • Please, could we not re-invigorate the “Values Voter” meme. II need it. My values are the historical values of the United States and I resent the rightwing nutjobs hijacking the term.

  • I guess my assumption was a pretty good one, right doubtful? -g8grl

    You’re assumption was that if Hillary had attended a similar style of church that Obama supporters would be railing against it. So no, you were completely off.

  • Chuck Todd said this morning that if Obama doesn’t hit a homerun in this up coming speech he is through and unelectable.

    He did no such thing, he was asked a question framed in those words from Olberman last night and he responded it’s “possible”. Then again WTFK (who the F*** knows?).

    When LIBERALS start quoting talking head commentators as authoritative experts is the day I turn in my LIBERAL LICENSE.

  • There is an interesting problem here for believing, practicing Christians: if one argues “it doesn’t mean Obama really believes it” then why go to church at all – why believe and practice? -ready to duck

    I think you’re jumping to a conclusion here. Agreement with Rev. Wright is not a prerequisite for Obama’s Christianity and there could be many other things, like community that tie him to that church.

    I’d be more skeptical of someone who didn’t occasionally think their pastor was wrong because I shun that lemmingesque mentality.

  • He has no real credibility left with the majority of Americans, and now he decided that he doesn’t need to be punctual in his apology for his very close relationship with such a controversial person.

    I believe this is the end for Obama.

  • WHY ARE WE SHOUTING!? LOUD NOISES!

    Greg really is Brick Tamland. Perfect.

    I’ve been flipping between CNN and MSNBC, and both of them explained there was an audio problem with the microphone, Brick.

  • Ignoring the right-wing fundies who say God punishes America for various things and the clear double standard at play it would have been nice to see someone point out that with regards to 9/11 Rev. Wright was referring to “blowback”. It’s not exactly controversial outside of knee-jerk nationalists.

    An as far as th “God Damn America” comment goes both Lincoln and MLK said Gos would be pissed at the US for slavery (Lincoln) and imperialism and oppression (MLK) and we have national holidays to remember them.

  • wow, both sides are at the extremes this morning, so let me switch sides for a minute and address Greg:

    punctuality is now a critical quality in a political campaign? really? everyone here who has ever known a political campaign to be punctual, raise your hand?

    see, i don’t see any raised hands. Bill Clinton, who I admire immensely, never met a function he wasn’t at least an hour late to. attacking Obama for running behind is just silly.

    questioning the nature of his relationship with a controversial pastor he chose to refer to as his spiritual advisor is not silly.

    i am an equal opportunity offender. which is to say i call em as i see em.

  • When LIBERALS start quoting talking head commentators as authoritative experts is the day I turn in my LIBERAL LICENSE. -Skewered Left

    Believe me, I know how you feel. I never imagined I’d be having some of the, um, conversations I’ve been having lately with fellow Democrats and progressives. Then Newsmax gets thrown around like a reputable source and my brain actually melted.

  • People who don’t attend church regularly don’t understand the relationship between a pastor and the congregation. At any given time about 1/3 of the congregation will dislike the minister. This can be higher if the church membership is declining. Ministers come and ministers go, but there will always be a core of the congregation who will stay for their entire lives. I’m going to a church where I have serious issues with the minister and I keep going because I LOVE the people. I even love the minister, I just don’t like him sometimes. Ministers are people too, you know.

    This is like the case where people won’t vote for Hillary because they claim she let feminists down by staying with Bill. Relationships are always complicated and those on the outside don’t have a right to judge.

  • Maybe Obama can end the conversation with you Clinton apologists by proclaiming himself to really be a Muslim and anything Wright says has no baring on his soul. God is Great, Wright is an after thought.

    Its’ times like this that REALLY make me appreciative of being an Atheist.

  • He just admitted to sitting in the audience when hate speaches were made by Reverand Jeremiah Wright, yet this man continued to be his close advisor and mentor.

    Nice speech Obama, now pack your bags and try not to leave things too fucked up for Hillary.

  • I guess then doubtful, it’s a good thing Hillary doesn’t attend and sit through such America hating speeches then, isn’t it? That way we’ll never know if my assumption is correct or incorrect. But I still contend that it is correct since, again, they’ve been call racists for much less. You can’t deny that. Or I guess you can since it seems as though Obama supporters deny almost everything negative about him.

  • The only logical conclusion is that he intentionally sabotaged the democrats chances of winning in 2008.

    Really Greg? That’s the “only logical conclusion” to all of this?
    Somehow, I don’t think logic factors into your theory in any way.

  • doubtful: I’d be more skeptical of someone who didn’t occasionally think their pastor was wrong because I shun that lemmingesque mentality.

    Agreed, but I suspect the general voting public will disagree with what they are shown of Wright more than just “occasionally,” and will think Obama should have as well.

    If anyone here thinks the MSM is using selectivity to distort the totality of Wright’s teachings has not seen anything yet – the Republicans will be a lot less fair than the MSM has been so far. You will see Wright in scores of attack ads this fall. And I think they will do some damage. Obama will have to have the upside to offset that damage (and if anyone on the left ever thought it would be easy to elect the first black or the first woman, they weren’t being realistic in the first place. This was always going to be a tough fight to make history; now we know more precisely where that tough fight lies.)

  • When you have a large congregation that’s part of your base that keeps you elected as a state Senator, you don’t leave that church lightly.

    Question is why he’d join it in the first place.
    Wright has been the pastor since 1972 and Obama joined in 1983.
    He’s had ample opportunity to hear Wright say questionable things and think better of his choice.

    This leads me to two conclusions.
    Wright rarely spews these tin foil hat sermons
    OR
    Obama supports the rhetoric at least to some degree or is Machiavellian enough to belong for political purposes even if he doesn’t agree with anything the leader (and one would suppose the congregation) believes.

    If the former, it’s understandable. You roll your eyes thinking “there he goes again.”

    if the latter, I share the concerns of his critics. (I support Obama)

    I’d be curious just how many Sundays the Rev. Wright went off the deep end and how often the sermon was more conventional.

  • That way we’ll never know if my assumption is correct or incorrect. -g8grl

    That’s all I was saying. Glad you agree with me.

  • OMG, he is still talking?!?!?.. I haven’t heard anything except “Blah blah blah blah blah since he ADMITTED TO SITTING IN THE AUDIENCE DURING HATE SPEECHES!.

    And now he is saying he can’t denounce this man any more than he could denounce his own race, his family. This is a very noble thing to do, now it’s time to say good bye and bow down gracefully.

  • Obama tried to have it both ways — to wink to the African American community while pretending to be disassociated from Afrocentrism to white voters. Now he is being put on the spot and he is still trying to placate everyone. Sometimes you have to take a stand. I’ll be interested to see whether his speech shows any guts or is just another attempt to reconcile the incompatible.

    I think this goes to the heart of Obama’s campaign. He has been running based on who he is, not what he has done (very little compared to others). That is the essence of identity politics. Now people are realizing they might not know who he is, that he appears to be a different person to different constituencies. When you run on your identity instead of your accomplishments, you have to have a solid identity. Obama must solidify his identity to white voters, while reassuring African American voters that he is not abandoning them or Wright, and his audience is no longer uncritical of his statements. That’s why this is important to those voters who are not just bigots.

  • WTF??? Now he is preaching to the audience, and getting applause. I’m going to be sick.

    This man really has no shame.

  • Wether or not Obama gets the nomination he will lose in November.

    Do you have any idea how incredibly stupid that sentence is?

    Hint: If he doesn’t get the nomination, he won’t lose in November.

    The only logical conclusion is that he intentionally sabotaged the democrats chances of winning in 2008.

    Yes, he’s a secret Republican operative. Aren’t you clever to be the first to figure that out!

  • If you think the issue is, as Ezra put it: “Does anyone believe that Barack Obama shares Jeremiah Wright’s political views?”

    Then you are competely missing the point (as is Booman and many other bloggers).

    It’s enough that Wright said “God Damn America” and Obama hangs out with the dude.

    And no, “educating” people about the history of blacks in America, or how they see things, or how they express them, is not going to work.

    People are making excuses for Wright. How about some excuses for Hagee? He’s definitely in the tradition of interpreting scripture, and isn’t that far afield from what early Protestants wrote. So, does Hagee get a pass? Or should America (and lots of liberal bloggers) become “educated” about the history of Protestant exegesis?

    Take off your ultra-rational hats. Stop reading the words of Wright in print and listen to his angry, and yes, his Black tone. You think that’s not offensive to many voters? Get real.

    I am very disappointed at the failure of liberal bloggers to see that Wright is a big political problem for Obama. Denying it will not resolve the problem. Face it, Wright is, and will remain, toxic.

  • …and yes, his Black tone. You think that’s not offensive to many voters? -Quiddity

    You are apparently an expert in what is offensive.

  • Now, to distract us from the fact that he ADMITTED TO SITTING IN THE AUDIENCE DURING HATE SPEECHES, he is talking about healing the wounds between blacks and whites.

    I like the concept, but this avoids answering the major question, HOW IS HE GOING TO WIN IN NOVEMBER?

    He doesn’t need to get his supporters fired up with another speech, he is losing support among the rest of the country fast, this is NOT going to work.

  • Must be a small crowd

    Now hes giving a campaign speech to his supporters. It won’t work hes through.

  • Magnificent speech – taking a big political risk by speaking the truth.

    Is America ready for a truth-speaking President? I hardly see any evidence.

  • Is he going to do a Q&A with reporters after the speech? I don’t know, but I highly doubt it.

    Anyone notice how he is going to his talking points and trying to distract people? Did we all sign up for another stump speech, I thought this was supposed to be an explaination for his close relationship with Jeremiah Wright.

  • greg: He just admitted to sitting in the audience when hate speaches were made by Reverand Jeremiah Wright

    I didn’t hear the speech, but knowing greg I would bet any money that Obama never said anything using the words “hate speaches” [sic] in referring to sermons he sat through. But if greg is so interested in hate speech, allow me to oblige: Greg, I hate your guts. Please go away and never darken CB’s door again. If I met you on the street and knew it was you, I’d happily punch your lights out just for being such an obnoxious prick.

    Oh, and god damn Amerika.

  • # 48 Greg:

    Click here to see how Obama will win in November.

    (Let me repeat part of that in ALL-CAPS SINCE YOU SEEM TO LIKE THAT:)

    Click HERE to see how OBAMA will win in NOVEMBER.

  • Doubtful, no denial on the fact that Hillary has been called a racist for much less? One of the worst things about this primary season has been that good Democrats (read Hillary and her supporters) have been tarred by the racist charge. Way to kill the party.

    Look Democrats are not supposed to be racists. If I were in attendence at a sermon, speech, or other some such, and the speaker began spouting such hatefulness…I would leave and never return to hear that speaker again much less come back for 20 years and donate $20K in 2006. Wright can say anything he wants, free speech is a good thing. But I would not go to listen, that’s the standard that I hold myself to. My circle of friends and a lot of other people probably think the same way. Obama has not met that easy, simple standard.

  • #39: the Republicans will be a lot less fair than the MSM has been so far. You will see Wright in scores of attack ads this fall.

    I doubt this is as big a problem as you make it out to be. If they went off the deep end like this there would be scads of video available to hit back HARD at McCain, not just with Hagee but with Falwell (may he rot in his imaginary hell) and all the other ranting phonies that McCain’s been sucking up to. I doubt McCain intends to go there, knowing the ammo that Obama would have.

  • Nice pretty picture Ohioan, it is obviously flawed and doesn’t take into effect the full scale of how this scandal will affect the general election.

    President Lindsay, you should watch the speech. He literally said that he was in the audience when controversial speeches were made, and went on to try and explain why this hate is acceptable.

    I’m sure you would eat it up, yum!

  • Keep stamping your little feet, Greg. It’s ADORABLE.

    Don’t feed the trolls, people. Greg is clearly certifiably insane, and Mary isn’t far behind.

  • Timeout .. take a deep breath, now think… do we really want to go into November against McCain into what will certainly be a race contest? This is really BAD for America!!

  • #56 – Greg, As Steve Benen’s post explains in detail, there is no scandal, unless you want to make it into one.

    What Obama said today was: “Did I know him to be an occasionally fierce critic of American domestic and foreign policy? Of course. Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes. Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views? Absolutely – just as I’m sure many of you have heard remarks from your pastors, priests, or rabbis with which you strongly disagreed. “

    He did not walk out of that church, because the good that Trinity did outweighed the occasional rhetoric:

    “by housing the homeless, ministering to the needy, providing day care services and scholarships and prison ministries, and reaching out to those suffering from HIV/AIDS.”

  • So let me get this straight …

    Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell consulted Regean, Bush Sr. and Bush Jr.

    Francis Schaeffer — who didn’t just say “damn America!” but actually called for the overthrow of the American government — was invited to dine at the White House and discuss policy with Ford, Reagan and Bush Sr.

    McCain actively sought the support of an anti-Catholic nut job who think the Holocaust was good for the Jewish people.

    And for the most part, the corporate media paid no attention whatsoever.

    But Obama’s pastor rails against America and it’s all “OH NOES!!! HE IZ DA TRAYTORZ!!!!eleven!!!!!!”

    Dear lord … no wonder this country is so fucked up.

    **shakes head, looks for jobs in Vancouver**

  • President Lindsay #55

    See CB’s post upthread re Republican attacks on the new NY gov for his marital problems. You shuld never underestimate the Right’s willingness to ignore the level of hypocrisy they are engaging in.

  • Timeout .. take a deep breath, now think… do we really want to go into November against McCain into what will certainly be a race contest? -Greg

    I’m quite certain Obama could beat McCain in a race. McCain in his seventies. It wouldn’t even be close.

  • the full transcript of the as-prepared comments is up on MSNBC, by the way.

    i am not certain whether it solves the political problems or not, but it really is a very good speech on paper (I did not see or hear it delivered). pretty gutsy. a lot of its positive or negative impact will depend on how the MSM chooses to sell it, package it, and react to it.

  • Remember the black church is at odds with evangelicals so it make sense that they have no problem with any of their own pastors extremist comments. I would go as far to say the two churches are so diametrically opposed that if you replaced the Sunni’s, Shiites, and Kurds with the black church, evangelicals, and (insert other religion here) the two before mentioned churches would be killing each other.

  • I read the speech and I was underwhelmed. My take on the situation – people are wondering what does Obama mean by “we need to move past race”? Is he for eliminating all raced-based affirmative action? As far as I can tell, his website’s only discussion of affirmative action is to say, “Obama will reverse the politicization that has occurred in the Bush Administration’s Department of Justice. He will put an end to the ideological litmus tests used to fill positions within the Civil Rights Division.” and “Obama will work to overturn the Supreme Court’s recent ruling that curtails racial minorities’ and women’s ability to challenge pay discrimination. Obama will also pass the Fair Pay Act to ensure that women receive equal pay for equal work.“.

    Now, my feeling is that the Wright view of the world calls for much more raced-based affirmative action to address past discrimination. That America has been constructed by Whites for the benefits of Whites and it needs to be radically reconstructed to serve all Americans. Does Obama agree with this or not? Obama’s speech to me tries to fudge whether he does or not. Here is the pertinent part of his speech:

    In fact, a similar anger exists within segments of the white community. Most working- and middle-class white Americans don’t feel that they have been particularly privileged by their race. Their experience is the immigrant experience – as far as they’re concerned, no one’s handed them anything, they’ve built it from scratch. They’ve worked hard all their lives, many times only to see their jobs shipped overseas or their pension dumped after a lifetime of labor. They are anxious about their futures, and feel their dreams slipping away; in an era of stagnant wages and global competition, opportunity comes to be seen as a zero sum game, in which your dreams come at my expense. So when they are told to bus their children to a school across town; when they hear that an African American is getting an advantage in landing a good job or a spot in a good college because of an injustice that they themselves never committed; when they’re told that their fears about crime in urban neighborhoods are somehow prejudiced, resentment builds over time.

    Like the anger within the black community, these resentments aren’t always expressed in polite company. But they have helped shape the political landscape for at least a generation. Anger over welfare and affirmative action helped forge the Reagan Coalition. Politicians routinely exploited fears of crime for their own electoral ends. Talk show hosts and conservative commentators built entire careers unmasking bogus claims of racism while dismissing legitimate discussions of racial injustice and inequality as mere political correctness or reverse racism.

    Just as black anger often proved counterproductive, so have these white resentments distracted attention from the real culprits of the middle class squeeze – a corporate culture rife with inside dealing, questionable accounting practices, and short-term greed; a Washington dominated by lobbyists and special interests; economic policies that favor the few over the many. And yet, to wish away the resentments of white Americans, to label them as misguided or even racist, without recognizing they are grounded in legitimate concerns – this too widens the racial divide, and blocks the path to understanding.

    What does that mean in terms of economic policy and race? How does clamping down on corporate corruption help black kids in poor neighborhoods? After his “major speech on race”, we still don’t know what he thinks should be the government’s policies in terms of race.

  • Don’t you liberals get it? Obama is proving again and again he is just another politician subject to the same hypocritical double standards as any democrat, republican or independent. Politics is a scummy business. Obama’s cover is blown as the “different breed of politican”. Nobody can really believes he endorses his wackjob pastor’s statements. However, it does prove he is just another typical politican.

    Clinton and Obama have nearly the same positions on the vast majority of issues, some of which I agree with, others I don’t. McCain has positions I agree with on and others I don’t. Since there is such a wide difference of opinion between the democrats and republicans on the issues why can’t the damned campaigns focus on how we fix the problems in this country.

  • This is not good for Democrats, I’m really sad to see that people who believe in this man so much are willing to lose to McCain in order to see him as the nominee.

    This controversy is not going away, (scandal may have been a bit harsh), but still this is not going away.

  • –Doubtful, no denial on the fact that Hillary has been called a racist for much less? One of the worst things about this primary season has been that good Democrats (read Hillary and her supporters) have been tarred by the racist charge. Way to kill the party.–

    I honestly haven’t heard Hillary called a racist, I have heard it put that she has “injected race” into this campaign repeatedly. That’s a little hard to deny. The drug dealer comments, the MLK not getting anywhere without LBJ comments, the Bill in SC comments, the Ferraro comments — I’m not including any that might be considered iffy, just the basic ones.

    And she’s doing this against another Democrat. So, who’s hurting the party? Who’s in it for their own benefit?

  • … why can’t the damned campaigns focus on how we fix the problems in this country.
    –Bruce

    Because the media is more interested in fake scandals than actual issues.

    This has been another edition of simple answers to simple questions.

  • Greg — he said he heard “controversial speeches” — not hate speeches. Unless you think you can’t be controversial without being hateful. Oh. Well, then. I can see how the error was made.

    I’ve listened to the GD America speech and I’m struck by the fact that he’s condemning…violence. Not advocating it, not calling for hatred, but condemning violence and immoral behavior. Why, I bet he’s even against torture. That used to be an American value too.

    Does he say it in a way that’s unappealing to many white folks? Apparently so. But as a white folk myself, I gotta admit, I get it. And there’s a huge difference between a white man preaching about hardships caused by a historically-oppressed minority and a member of a historically-oppressed minority talking about how angry he is that there is still oppression.

    Sort of like the difference between a man giving a lecture about how lucky women are, how privileged they have become in society vs. a woman giving a lecture about how underrepresented women still are, how much of the power structure is still designed in a way to favor men. If you can’t see the difference, well, I guess I’m not going to be able to explain it.

  • All that needs to be done is look at the new PA polls to see how unelectable that Obama has become.

  • #72

    He wasn’t comdemning violence in that speech he was blaming white america for introducing drugs in america to kill of minorities, build more prisons to house black america. If thats not hate you’ve apparently never seen hate speech.

    Get over it hes now toast unelectable.

  • I’m not impressed that Obama got some good remarks on his performance from people in this blog. this is certainly an Obama friendly cyber hangout.

    Isn’t it interesting how according to Obama words should mean a lot when it comes to himself, but not so much when it comes to Jeremiah Wright!

    I beg of you to stop making excuses for this man, he is obviously too closely related to Jeremiah Wright to distance himself.

  • I can see it now, commercials that show the Jeremiah Wright hate speeches, follewd by an unapologetic Obama saying how he would not reject this man anymore than he could reject his own race.

    Do you not see how bad this looks?

  • Oh, and include a sound byte to that commercial of him saying how he admits to being in the audience during controversial sermons which he strongly disagreed with..

  • #74

    You do know we have more people in prison than China, right? And their population is how many times ours? 3-4 times bigger?

    Actually he blamed the government for the drugs (and I agree that’s a little loony) — so to make your point that he blamed “white america” you’d have to argue that the government IS white america. Not necessarily a hard argument to make, but you’d sort of be screwing up your whole point if you made it.

    “God damn America, that’s in the Bible for killing innocent people,” he said
    in a 2003 sermon. “God damn America for treating our citizens as less than
    human.
    God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is
    supreme.

    Ummm, all of those seem to be more biblically/universally based than race, eh? Killing innocents, treating people as less than human, acting as God (that’s the bible one, obviously) — again, form and delivery, not so much my style, but otherwise, I’ve gotta agree, where’s the controversy?

  • Greg and Comeback, when you’re done with your circle jerk in fantasyland, be sure to shut out the lights in here.

  • Excellent post CB, and not surprisingly most of the Clinton supporters posting in the thread don’t address it or even seem to have read it.

    Obama is unelectable because he showed poor judgment picking one mentor and one associate? Really? That’s the best you’ve got? Do you really need a list of all the Clinton friends and associates who went to prison, or all the mistresses Bill slept with? I’m stunned that you think this primary fight should be based on character, and even moreso that you think character is a winning issue for Hillary Clinton. It sounds more like Rovian strategy, attack your opponent’s biggest strength to hide your own biggest weakness.

    Clinton supporters frighten me with their capacity for hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance, you would almost think most of them are really Republicans whoring themselves out online for the candidate they hope to face in November.

  • Jen, so literal? Seems as though you’re being willfully blind. If you just read this thread the Clintons have been called race-baiters.

    BTW, your basic examples aren’t basic. Maybe you should have thrown in the Clinton put out the Somali dress photo then you would have hit lottery. I completely reject and deny your examples. Specifically the drug dealer comment – Obama brought up his drug use, speculation that someone who has done drugs might have dealt is not necessarily injecting race. MLK comment, completely debunked. If you saw race in that comment you were looking for it. Bill in SC: 1) fairy tale- completely debunked; 2) Jesse Jackson -he was being asked about JJ so he responded with JJ. Ferraro comment – it was the truth. Women had been saying for months that if he was a woman, he wouldn’t have gotten as far as he did. In context she said he ran a great campaign, had some major positives going for him but if he was a white man or a woman of any color… That was the truth, was the truth racist?

  • I think we should take the chance to learn something from this whole fiasco.

    Namely, that if you’re a religious leader, you can bash gays, blacks, immigrants, victims of natural disasters, environmentalists, teachers, doctors, lawyers, actors, musicians, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Arabs, Persians, Africans, liberals, and a host of others, just so long as you’re pals with Republicans.

    Do NOT, however, at any point and time, for any reason, even think about blaming white America, ever, for anything. Especially if you personally know a Democrat.

    That’s just something our nation won’t tolerate.

  • : 76. Greg said: Do you not see how bad this looks?

    No, other than the poorly chosen (but justifiable in context) phrase “God Damn America” and the belief that the US government intentionally introduced drugs into the inner cities (shared by many upstanding Democratic Congresspersons including Maxine Waters), I don’t see why any of what Wright says should be remotely controversial. And I don’t see how any of it should reflect poorly on Obama, who obviously doesn’t believe any of it and has repudiated it all. If it ends up damaging Obama’s campaign to the point where he is unelectable it will be because of lying morons like you pretending to be outraged and spreading this narrative because it helps your candidate.

  • Some folks upthread need to shut up and listen and maybe learn something. You’re missing what just happened. Race has been the issue that people have danced around since Iowa. This guy just took on the issue directly, discussing it on personal and societal levels, across generations and across racial lines. He just laid out the big picture and you’re spouting the same little crap you did yesterday.

  • The outrage over this controversy is very real, and will become more apparent very soon.

    “Jesse Jackson -he was being asked about JJ so he responded with JJ” -g8grl

    Wow! The Clintons were being damned for Bill Clinton responding to a question about Jesse Jackson and including Jesse Jackson in his answer, where is the outrage? This is what started the animosity toward Clinton over this, I can’t believe you people continue to support Obama in light of this.

    Where is the race baiting coming from, I’d say from those who would profit from introducing race into this race. That short list would include Republicans or Trinity church members.

  • #81

    I guess you’re right, I’m too literal. I can see you spinning away, but I’m stuck in my reality based world.

  • What a wonderful speech. It is unfortunate that many Americans won’t hear it, but I expect lots of superdelegates will (the Obama campaign ought to send every one of them a video!), and for now that will be all that’s needed to win the nomination. After that, Obama can repeat it on prime time, at the convention.

    It is interesting to note how, a few mere weeks ago, the mainstream media and many Republicans considered it inappropriate to discuss what Huckabee said in his own sermons. Now, because it gives white folk traction against Obama, it’s appears to be okay not only to discuss every last thing Obama’s minister ever said, but also to assume that Obama agrees with every controversial idea in those sermons, all his speeches and actions notwithstanding.

  • hmmm. . . greg made 3 posts in a row and more than 10% in the thread.

    and his handle has the same number of characters as “swan.”

    just sayin.

  • Really, you think greg and swan are one and the same? Funny how a month or so after swan finally flew the coop he’s already receded enough into my memory that it seems like I’d welcome him back if I could trade greg for him. But the mind does play tricks on one…

  • Obama innocent?
    Attending that church for years and listening to such garbage. Apparently approving, since otherwise he could have changed the church. Easy in America.

  • Comments are closed.