‘The Purple Party’

I’ve always found the idea for third parties interesting on a poli-sci level, so when I saw that New York magazine ran a big, multi-part feature this month on “The [tag]Purple Party[/tag],” I was anxious to see what the basic pitch was. I came away a little confused.

Writer [tag]Kurt Andersen[/tag] explained that he tends to vote for [tag]Democrat[/tag]s, but does so unenthusiastically. At the local level (he’s in NYC), he’s backed moderate GOP mayors like Giuliani and Bloomberg, but said he could “never” be a [tag]Republican[/tag] unless [tag]Chafee[/tag]-like moderates managed to take over, which he conceded will not happen.

Andersen insists he’s a “moderate” without a party — Dems on the left, [tag]Republicans[/tag] on the right. He wants a new party to bridge the gap.

We are people without a party. We open-minded, openhearted moderates are alienated from the two big parties because backward-looking ideologues and p.c. hypocrites are effectively in charge of both. Both are under the sway of old-school clods who consistently default to government intrusion where it doesn’t belong….

Fine. What does Andersen want in a [tag]party[/tag]? His lengthy feature spans several thousand words, but the gist of his pitch is a party that’s fiscally responsible, supports single-payer health care, will fight a genuine war on terrorists but recognizes that the war in Iraq was a mistake, takes the separation of church and state seriously, and is pro-environment, pro-choice, pro-trade, pro-science, and pro-diversity.

When listing some of the people Andersen likes who’d be welcome in his new “purple” party, he mentions [tag]Barack Obama[/tag], [tag]Bill Clinton[/tag], [tag]Jon Stewart[/tag], [tag]Oprah[/tag], [tag]George Soros[/tag], and [tag]John McCain[/tag] (“The one who ran for president in 2000, not the one running for president in 2008,” Andersen says).

Reading over the piece more than once, I kept coming to the same conclusion: Andersen doesn’t need the “purple” party; he needs to realize he’s just a regular ol’ [tag]Clintonian[/tag] [tag]Democrat[/tag].

No, no, Andersen says. He’s “depressed” about the Dems because they don’t seem willing to “reform” entitlements; they “oppose” charter schools; they’re insufficiently pro-trade; they’re tacitly “anti-business,” and, for reasons that are unclear, he’s convinced they’re anti-military.

However, what makes so much of the great middle of the electorate most uncomfortable about signing on with the Democratic Party is the same thing that has made them uncomfortable since McGovern — the sense that the anti-military instincts of the left half of the party, no matter how sincere and well meaning, render prospective Democratic presidents untrustworthy as guardians of national security.

What on earth makes Andersen believe this? He says it’s a “sense” that he has, but includes no examples or evidence of any kind.

I don’t mean to pick on Andersen; he’s worked hard to craft a provocative thought piece. But I’m afraid his argument lacks a certain coherence.

He’s obviously disgusted by practically everything Republicans do and stand for, but he’s loath to back the Dems because he’s stuck with an image of George McGovern in his head. Did he sleep through the Clinton era? Did Al [tag]Gore[/tag] and/or John [tag]Kerry[/tag] in any way resemble the caricature of the wacky quasi-socialist, pacifist liberal that keeps Andersen from backing the Dems earnestly?

I’m not reflexively opposed to the idea of a third party; I just want a description of what this third party would believe and stand for. The difference between Andersen’s “purple” party and a Clinton/New Democratic party is, as far as I can tell, indistinguishable.

A third party is unrealistic at this stage (remember Ralph Nader in 2000 and the votes he pulled from Gore?), although I would prefer the party Anderson describes to the Democratic Party I see. CB may be correct, that Anderson’s is esstentially a “Clinton/New Democratic party,” but without Clinton around to lead it, that party seems to have faded away.

  • I think that the staunchly pro-military types tend to avoid any criticism at all of the miltary, so they tend to demonize democrats because many democrats do question the military, and some of us are truly anti-military (a fairly small minority).

    IMO, the way one views our military is more like a religion than anything else. Any criticism of it makes those who worship it cringe, it’s a visceral reaction more than a logical one. To some, a party that allows people like me to routinely criticize the military cannot be a good party.

  • Calling it the “Purple Party” might be unfortunate politcally. Look at how outraged they got about the Purple teletubbie.

  • anderson’s a twit. just another ivy-leaguer from the mid-west who feels empowered to explain things to the rest of us. time inc. used to be crawling with the likes of him. happily, the only people who pay any attention to him now are his middle-aged peers stuck in manhattan.

  • Those anti-military Demcocratic Presidential/VP candidates

    Carter — Navy officer, Active Duty (ran in 1976, 1980)
    Mondale — Army officer, Active Duty (ran in 1976, 1980, 1984)
    Dukakis — Army grunt, Active Duty (ran in 1988)
    Gore — Army officer, Active Duty (ran in 1992, 1996, 2000)
    Kerry — Army officer, Active Duty (ran in 2004)

    Hell, even Clinton used the military in Bosnia and Somalia, and bombed Iraq.

  • I think Anderson has a point.

    Too much of the Democratic party, and too much of the things written here, especially in the comments, is too far left for a significant portion of the world.

    A large portion of the party has:
    never had a defense budget that couldn’t be cut;
    can’t understand that some people have problems with allowing their daughter to get an abortion without their knowledge but can’t get an asprin in school without parental consent;
    and doesn’t understand that private industry actually can do some good.

    Don’t forget that a sizable portion of the Democratic party doesn’t believe in evolution either.

    If Carpetbagger were the left or even the center-left part of the Democratic party then we wouldn’t need a purple party.

    How can any party be taken seriously that allows Al Sharpton to speak at the convention? Sharpton should have to say “I’m sorry” before he can speak at the convention.

    I am a yellow-dog democrat but only because Pat Buchannan and Pat Robinson convinced me I can’t be a ‘publican.

  • Sounds Like Kurt Anderson Only Satisfied with the “Kurt Anderson” Party

    Sounds like he wants not the purple party but the “Kurt Anderson” party. Is he truly surprised that given the reality that America has a political system that enforces and encourages a two party system that neither of the two major parties exactly match what his views are on every issue?

    “No, no, Andersen says. He’s “depressed” about the Dems because they don’t seem willing to “reform” entitlements; they “oppose” charter schools; they’re insufficiently pro-trade; they’re tacitly “anti-business,” and, for reasons that are unclear, he’s convinced they’re anti-military.”

    Those are some pretty squishy objections. Perhaps if he could come up with some actual concrete examples rather than conclusory statements it might make more sense. How does he come to the conclusion Democrats ar e not willing to reform? How does he distinguish between being for strong public schools versuse opposed to charter schools? Which democrats is he talking about? Are Democrats supposed to be for all charter schools no matter how they are structured or implemented? What exactly is insufficiently pro trade supposed to mean? Not exactly as pro trade as Kurt Anderson? Democrats simply are not anti business or anti military – period. Some people confuse not trumpeting every measure deemed pro business or pro military whatever there overall impact as being anti- something.

    Any party that appeals to more than half the electorate is likely pass muster with Kurt Anderson. Does he forget that any party not only has to satisfy his criteria but also those of some odd one hundred and fifty million other Americans? Does he think that secretly most Americans want exactly what he wants?

  • Sounds like Kurt just likes to bitch and moan – it must get pretty uncomfortable sitting on that fence all day. Maybe we should remind him it’s called “participatory democracy” for a reason.

  • Poor George McGovern. The elaborately orchestrated and lavishly funded smear campaign of the 1972 (Watergate) Nixon White House still sticks to him to this very day. National Security? When the country rejected McGovern, they accepted Kissinger, Nixon, Haldeman, Erlichmann, John Mitchell, Colson, and G. Gordon Liddy. McGovern was in favor of ending the war, and had he done so, it would arguably have been under more favorable circumstances than the ignominious retreat from Saigon over which the National Security Experts (GOP) presided. I wonder if someday Andersen and his ilk will look back with nostalgia on Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rove, still grateful that John Kerry didn’t hand the country over to Sadaam. Sheesh.

  • His ‘sense’ is a testament to the Republican Machine. They have constantly in campaign mode for the last twenty or so years and have done so effectively.

    They are bullshit peddlers, but they sell it well.

  • Neil, this website and its comment threads engage in facts and logic, not strawmen. I suggest you try fark, redstate, or du, where they’ll be happy to engage you, or pile on.

    I will engage you re: parental notification. You mention that the parent needs to give permission for the child to have an aspirin. Indeed, the moment that child has a baby, she would then have that same authority regarding aspirin etc. for her child. It is only natural then, that these situations be treated differently, with health professionals being able to decide with the child how to proceed. (In almost all cases, of course, the parents are informed of the situation, it’s only the most f*&*^’ed up ones in which notification might be problematic). There are better arguments/ways of articulating it, but that’s a start.

  • Does anyone have a comparison of the House Reps & Senators that have served in the military?
    When I think of military, I think of Murtha.

    Now, I have 2 brother-in-laws who served in ‘Nam.
    The one I know better was indoctrinated that Kerry (Navy, actually NAR) painted ALL Viet Nam Vets with a broad, bloody brush in the Winter Soldiers hearings. No way I could make a dent in that belief.
    The other is a FOX news channel viewer. Need I say more?

    Bottom line is (in their minds) that the Democrats got us into ‘Nam, but couln’t “win” that one.

  • Neil,

    I have a few issues with your issues.

    A large portion of the party has:
    never had a defense budget that couldn’t be cut; (True because the DOD budget is insanely huge. Nobody spends anywhere near what we spend. If all that money went to the troops and not to DOD contractors I suspect things would be different. Do not forget which party supports veterans benefits and which party thinks that is the first place to pinch pennies)

    can’t understand that some people have problems with allowing their daughter to get an abortion without their knowledge but can’t get an asprin in school without parental consent;(It is understood perfectly that not everyone supports abortion and that parents would like to be aware of huge events in their daughters and sons lives. However, for a party that supposedly LOVES BIG government it seems keeping the Congress out of the OBGYN’s office is quite a major step. Perhaps if sex and pregnancy were not shameful taboos, daughters would tell their parents voluntarily)

    and doesn’t understand that private industry actually can do some good. (I think this is the worst of your observations. Tell me who the last legitimate Democratic candidate was who suggested nationalizing industry. Regulation is not hate. If business would police themselves the government would not have to. America is and will always be a capitalist country. It is in our DNA regardless of political views.)

    Don’t forget that a sizable portion of the Democratic party doesn’t believe in evolution either. (Don’t even get me started. Democrats are not the ones who intentionally blur the line between science and religion. Evolutionists need to come to grips with the fact that the government can function on science without infringing on individuals’ rights to believe mankind is 2000 years old.)

    Please do not misunderstand my point here. I disagree with what you said but I am very happy that you posted it. A little more discussion and a little less agreement is a good thing for CB and his loyal readers.

    Overall it seems to me that you and Kurt Anderson both seem to believe the rhetoric the right throws out about the left.

  • Alan:

    Thanks for your thoughtful and kind response.

    I am pretty far out on the pro-choice limb. However, I have noticed that a significant portion of the country is significantly less pro-choice than I am.

    If you want to have a litmus test that you need to be 100% pro-choice to be a democrat then it will be a lot harder for democrats to win elections.

    Are people like the Senate Minority Leader bad democrats?

    ********
    But I do have to agree with you that comments here should engage in facts.

    “They are bullshit peddlers, but they sell it well.”
    “anderson’s a twit.”

    I just wish I had the same grasp of the facts as other posters here do.

  • too far left for a significant portion of the world

    Which portion of the world are we talking about? Seems to me that there are a lot more people farther left outside of the US than there are in the US. How are we defining left anyway? What are the main issues, since the left in different countries may differ on certain things?

    Not to support Neil’s notion that we are too far left over here on The Report, but…

    never had a defense budget that couldn’t be cut
    Can you actually show me a defense budget from say, the last 20 years, that couldn’t be cut? Considering our deficient spending in so many other areas, why should defense be such a big part of out budget?

    can’t understand that some people have problems with allowing their daughter to get an abortion without their knowledge but can’t get an asprin in school without parental consent;
    Who are these people you talk about? You’d at least be a little credible if you didn’t use the construction “can’t understand”. Combined with the aspirin combination, completely disingenuous.

    doesn’t understand that private industry actually can do some good.
    I don’t know why I should bother with this one. Anyone(and that means you), who thinks a majority of the party believes this has been reading nothing but nonsense portrayed as news(or political commentary). What I believe you will find is people who are trying to counter the notion that EVERYTHING private industry does is good. Corporations are not created to increase the public good or help people, those things only come about orthogonally to their stated goal — maximize profits. The belief that an unfettered free market will be self-correcting is nonsense.

    Of course, I am not a good example for the moderation of Democrats because I get a little worked up when people either explicitly or implicitly claim that corporations are so good for all. Why are corporations given the same protections as people under the law but not the same consequences? If a corporation knowingly kills some people, why does it just pay a fine, why isn’t it eliminated? (I can’t pay a fine for killing people). Why can people be allowed to do things through corporations that they aren’t allowed to do individually?

  • Neil, way to repeat those unsupported RNC talking points about the “left” of the Democratic party. I consider myself to be liberal (presumably “far left” in your parlance).

    Who’s the party that’s cutting veteran’s benefits and increasing co-pays? Give you a hint–it is not the Democratic party.

    Parental consent/notification laws are supported by a large majority of people of all political persuasions–personally I support those laws that require parental consent but provide for judicial bypass. The problem that most of us liberals have is that anti-choice advocates are really anti-women, anti-sex, anti-birth control, etc. Fundamental rights of women are being assaulted on a daily basis and are dying from a thousand cuts. With respect to minors, I would fight any effort to eliminate judicial bypass–what about incest, rape, abuse (emotional and/or physical)?

    As far as private industry is concerned, I fail to see a large portion of the party espouse the view that private industry can’t do good. I have worked for private industry my entire career (insurance, electric utility, private law firm), and there are good and bad actors there, just like there are good and bad people.

    A sizable portion of the Democratic party may not “believe” in evolution (which I hope is not true), but I suspect a far larger portion of the Republican party doesn’t. I fail to see this as an indictment against the “left” of the Democratic party. As an engineer with a heavy science background, I agree with the theory of evolution (it is not a “belief”). It is the right-wingers who reject science.

    As far as Sharpton is concerned, I disagree with him on manu issues. But, look at who the Republicans look to for support-Dobson, Falwell, Malkin, Coulter, Limbough, etc.-and tell me that we should take them seriously.

    Finally, I do not speak for CB, but he seems center left to me!

  • Here’s the irony. The Dems have an ‘extreme’ left and a centrist wing that pretty much ignores them. They get labled as out of the mainstream. OTOH, the repubs have an ‘extreme’ right that has virtually tossed all of their moderates overboard, yet they get labled as mainstream.
    A big culprit in this is MSM. Whether they are in league with the GOP, or merely played by them doesn’t matter. We’ve got to put a stop to it.

  • George McGovern served his country in the U.S. Army Air Corps during WWII where he earned the Silver Star and the Distinguished Flying Cross. If he is now known as a peacenik it is because he ran for president in 1972 when many Americans were desperate to get out of Vietnam.

    However, Anderson is right that the Democratic party is thought to be weak on national security. We attract those who think that the US is too warlike, just as Republicans attract those who think that the answer to any foreign conflict is to bomb the other country back to the stone age. On the other hand, when we are spending more on military than all other countries combined, I’m inclined to think that there is a lot that could be cut from the military budget.

    Also, Steve is correct that Anderson is describing Clinton/New Democrats.

  • “…and too much of the things written here, especially in the comments, is too far left for a significant portion of the world.”

    Strange…most comments here strike me as libertarian, if anything. If any liberals liked big government, Bush cured them.

    Back on track, Andersen’s barking up the wrong tree as far as offering generalizable reasons why people won’t support Democrats even in the face of GOP implosion. I suspect that the real reason why people won’t vote democratic is because the democrats don’t represent them. But not for the reasons Neil presents (i.e., they are too “far left”). Democrats come from the same social class as the Republicans, and they are generally supported by the same special interests. I suspect that it is no coincidence that the Democrats have shown such timid leadership as an opposition party.

    I recently read a study–damned if I can find it, but I know some of you are less lazy than I and can track it down–but there was a survey of the extent to which money influenced the amount of attention and advocacy the Democratic majority in Congress gave during the early 1990s to particular legislation. The findings showed that the Democrats essentially only listened to the well heeled. The middle class received some attention, and the poor had no voice at all. Indeed, legislation that purportedly benefitted the poor was allowed only with the consent of the wealthy. Based on that, we cannot say that the Democrats are in fact the “progressive party” and it is silly to say they are “far left.” I would have been deeply surprised to find out that they were progressive at all, given their funding sources and the wealthy backgrounds of the individual legislators. To get an even better sense of how easily the GOP and Democrats trade messages based on majority/minority status, there is a documentary on the raid on the Branch Davidian compound. My jaw was hanging open as I listened to Democrats like Chuck Schumer spouting fascist stuff that a Republican today would be proud of, and the GOP acting like they cared about civil liberties. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

    In sum, most people do not believe that government pays the remotest attention to their interests. And most people are right. Why should people vote if they effectively have no representation in government? All they can do is passively suffer and hope that government at least won’t cause the country to crash and burn. That’s the challenge the Democrats face. Unfortunately, I’m not confident that the Democrats are up to the challenge or even really all that interested in addressing it.

    Sorry to be so glum, guys!

  • Neil, I like Harry Reid. I will support any good Democrat, even if they disagree about abortion. As far as that’s concerned, I would prefer to see someone else besides Casey get the Democratic Senate nomination in PA, but that’s because I think the other challengers have a good chance against Santorum also. If only Casey were able to do it, I would support him.

    It should also be noted, that most “pro-life” Democrats, do not actively try to make abortion a major issue. For instance, the recent push by Harry Reid and others for the “prevention first act” which focuses on contraceptive access and education. Of course if a Democrat were zealous about the issue, or said something stupid, like Joe “short ride to the nearest medical facility” Lieberman, I’d be less approving. As far as I know, Harry Reid has not done anything like that.

  • Always fun to talk about what you want, we all do it.

    But it overlooks the fact that we have a two party system with one party in charge of everything. Now you either decide you’re going to continue to let the people in charge run the country into the ground, or you’re going to vote for something different. Me, I’m going to vote for something different.

    It’s interesting to see all the talk about Bush “saving” his Presidency. We’re long past that. It’s time to start acting to save our country.

    As for some of the things Anderson wants, well, that’s some good stuff, but right now, my country’s going through an endless train wreck, and it’s more important to vote these guys out of office so that I have a country with a future.

  • I can see where he’s coming from. Just as the Republicans are burdened with the religious right which prevents it from being an effective, moderate, governing party, the Democrats are also saddled with our left-wing groups which, while relatively absent from the national political stage now, rioted during the WTO meeting in Seattle in 1999, and who for years protested sanctions on Iraq by using the wildly overblown numbers that Saddam was producing, ie 150,000 dead children per year. I consider myself a Clintonian Democrat, probably one good reason why I like this site so much, but I don’t share much common cause with the left-wing of my party either. I don’t believe we should oppose globalization, but rather we should embrace it, guide it to everyone’s competitive benefit, and we should oppose specifically the kind of globalization that corporations want, ie the Washington Consensus, which ignores the interests of non-wealthy foreign countries and even American citizens. I don’t believe we should have let Saddam off the hook, and while I disagree with Bush on just about everything, he did change the status quo which was no longer workable, which left Saddam in power under ineffective sanctions that only strengthened him. ( And just so we’re clear, I’m not a Bush apologist who thinks that somehow justifies what Bush did, I believe even Bill Clinton agreed with this point.) Any use of military power, or even police power, however justified and necessary, the left-wing loves to blow out of proportion and demonize in the worst “jack-booted thugs” symbolism possible. And they love to slap the “War Criminal” label on any president for some obscure and probably completely false allegation that not even Noam Chomsky is aware of, practically the day after he’s inaugurated. This completely dilutes the use of (rightfully) calling Bush a war criminal today, for lying about Iraq and attacking it unprovoked. While these lefties aren’t as influential as the right-wingers of the GOP, they are influential, and I think this is the left-wing that concerns Anderson just as much as the neo-cons and the evangelicals worry me.

    I look back at the 90s and see myself as someone who had a lot of ambivalence about some left-wing causes I take very seriously now, like socialized medicine or dealing with global warming. I’m willing to bet that, ten years ago when Clinton proposed it, Kurt Anderson opposed it then too. There’s something to be said about that – it isn’t even a difference between liberals and conservatives, it’s a difference between looking forward and looking backward.

    Conservatives of course are notorious for looking backward, ie trying to return us to the “wholesome days of yore” ie the 1950s, back when blacks were second-class citizens, women knew their place (in the kitchen) and going to war was noble. I think it’s sad the first Gulf War (the noble defense of Kuwait) couldn’t heal the wounds of Vietnam, but Bush has just made the situation, “the Vietnam Syndrome” much, much worse.

    But liberals also sometimes have the fault of looking backward. IE some of the reasons I remember for opposing NAFTA was the loss of our manufacturing jobs. But we are losing those anyway. We can no longer sustain those jobs as cheaply as developing countries can, and rather than raise tariffs and hurt everyone we should be preparing our workforce to move into the kind of industries we as a country are more competitive in, ie by job retraining, unemployment benefits, and most importantly by subsidizing almost-universally-required higher education the way we do K-12. That would be the forward-thinking way that would be aligned with most other forward-thinking liberal ideals.

    Man, that was long. Sorry for ranting. Anyway, I can see where Anderson is coming from. He longs for independence from the radicals on the wings of both parties. Don’t we all?

  • I’m not saying I share Andersen’s views, but:

    People who have such strong feelings like that just need to get involved in making the Democratic party more like they think it should be, even if it’s just by speaking out. If they don’t care enough to really do anything about their feelings so as to change things, then they should just be content to twiddle their thumbs.

    A third party can’t work until we have proportional representation. That’s my understanding of it. There’s not enough incentive to create a party that could really compete with the big two; it would be a monumental task, and even if it did get off the ground, it would de facto become a replacement for one of the other parties soon enough, wouldn’t it? As time went on, we’d inveitably end up with only two viable parties again, and they’d look pretty much like the two we had before. Correct me if I’m wrong, here.

  • “They are bullshit peddlers, but they sell it well.”

    I just wish I had the same grasp of the facts as other posters here do.

    Neil wilson, you want facts? Just keep reading this board. I don’t have the time to delve into the myriad lies the Republican party has spread like manure, but CB does an excellent job on a daily basis.

    I, for one, am tired of being lied to by our elected officials, especially when the results are so disasterous, like the Iraq quagmire.

    So call me out if you want, but we’re all being lied to constantly, and as much as I despise it, I think the Republican party has done a hell of a job selling it. Many Americans believed and still believe every vapid, substance-free verbal defacation spewed forth by them.

    But I do have to agree with you that comments here should engage in facts.

    There was no disinformation in my post, just an opinion. As far as I know, having an opinion is still okay.

  • Neil’s comment at #6 seems to me like it really mischaracterizes the views of the Democratic party.

    Also, it’s thrown this thread way off topic!

  • Oh, and to inoculate myself from comments made about other observations being RNC/FoxNews talking points, my observations about the antiwar protestors and sanctions protestors are firsthand, from my experience going to college at the University of Washington and Lewis & Clark College, and just from hanging around liberals and reading liberal publications in Portland and Seattle.

    This is not to say I think this reflects the Democratic leadership AT ALL. Or even leadership on the left, but is certainly reflective of conversations with and observation of some well-placed (ie Red Square at UW, corner of 45th and the Ave at UW, coffee shops on 21st Ave in Portland, places I’ve often been to) left-wing activists.

    Oh, and don’t even get me started on the LaRouchies.

  • But it seems much more likely than becoming a viable party (in which case it seems like it would, as I said, just become a replacement for one of the other parties) that a third party would just become a heap of barnucles dragging down one of the other parties, like the Greens and Ross Perot have been.

  • The same old Dems as peacenik crap. When I was a kid growing up in the Reagan years, I used to hear and believe that all the time till I read a few memoirs, books and did some research on my own.

    Pretty much most of the military build up that the Repubs pat themselves on the back for, the seed were sown by one Jimmy Carter. He and his Defense Sec Harold Brown pushed for a 400 ship Navy to combat the Soviet Threat and incorporated the Maritime Strategy (using the Navy to take the war to Soviet shores thru seapower) into his administration’s military policy.

    By the time Reagn came to power, much of the transformation was already underway. However, it was Reagan and his demented Navy Sec that went overboard with the spending and pushed for the Navy to expand from 400 to 600 ships (and added almost 1 TRILLION dolars to the debt and almost sank the US Treasury as well as the Navy.) In a sad replay of current events, the Nav Sec fired anyone who said the 600 ship navy was going to cost too much and or came up with the “wrong” intelligence which said the Soviets really didn’t have a navy worth a crap. Turns out the naysayers were right. The damn ships cost too much and the Sovs never had a real navy (a lot of ships, but most of them were little ones not the big ones like carriers and cruisers.)

    Didn’t help that the USAF and Army wanted their share of the pie too and the costs just kept climbing. Also thrown in a lot contractor greed (hence the $25 screws and $1000 toilet seats.)

  • It is becoming increasingly clear that if the Democrats could simply resign themselves to killing a few tens of thousands of brown people somewhere a year, every year, indefinitely, they’d never lose an election.

    Because that’s what ‘national security’ means to too many voters.

    Personally, if I sat down to a card game every two years where the chips were essentially dead people who had the misfortune to worship the wrong God, live in the wrong place, or make the mistake of electing a government that polls badly in NoVA, DC and Maryland, I wouldn’t be that psyched about winning…..

  • I don’t know why, but all the people I know who think like this guy seem to be half-witted space cadets when you try to get them to sit down and say why they think what they think. It’s like they spend their waking hours with their head tucked in their armpit (or somewhere worse, more likely). What’s even more amazing is all the people who think these halfwits have something to say.

  • In my view, a third party would just make the system worse, as long as we’re stuck with plurality voting. This system is the only thing that makes the “spoiler effect” possible, and it should really be something people of all political flavors should be conscious of: candidates on both the left and right have been sandbagged by spoiler candidates.

    If every person and candidate who wants a third party to be viable got behind voting-system reform, it would have a serious shot. I don’t care if you’re talking about Borda Count or Instant Runoff– just about any system would be worlds better than what we’ve got.

    My favorite article on this topic is here:
    Election Selection: Are we using the worst voting procedure?

  • What you are looking at is the possibility of a long-lasting realignment, which may leave one party of the other in the minority.

    A lot rests on the ability of one party to effectively brand the other. A political party is defined by defining its enemies, and the Republicans have done a much better job at this essential tasks. Unfortunately, the Republicans have had 5 years now to make clear that they do not actually represent the interests of a majority, and are incompetent to boot. All without any effective labeling by the Democrats.

    Right now the parties are roughly 52-48, as of 2004; Democrats need to move about 8 percent of the voting electorate, so that the percentages are 45-55.

  • Demonization and negative campaigning works–and is about the only thing that Republicans are good at.

    Republicans win elections partially by getting people who agree with Democrats on most issues to have a vague notion that something is wrong with Democrats which prevents them from really voting for Democrats. In this case it is the myth they spread that Democrats (the winners of two World Wars) are weak on security. For others it is the feeling that they are quasi-socialists who will tax them out of their standard of living.

    Democrats are the Kerry campaign on a larger scale. Kerry is often crticized for failing to get out his message and other vague complaints. Before knocking Kerry (or previously Gore or Dukakis) for this, keep in mind that the entire party has the same failings. This is the effect of the Republican Noise Machine.to spread misinformation and give voters a false view of any Democrat running.

  • I think the issue with the Dems lately has been the lack of a clear leadership figure. If a strong leader emerges, I think the Kurt Andersens of the world will fall in line and leave their laundry lists at home.

    Face it: no leader is going to come out of either party that’s going to match everyone’s a la carte expectations. I think if someone emerges that has a strong sense of how things should be, has a strong sense of justice and won’t fall asleep at the switch the Dems would have a real winner.

    For 2008, I think the Republicans are far worse off than the Dems. Frist is limp at best, Hagel is too much of a maverick for their tastes (think McCain in 2000) and the rest of the lot is equally suspect. If a Dem emerges with strong convictions, 2008 will be theirs.

  • Wow, I never knew that my views were just rehashing of the ‘publican propoganda.

    All I am trying to say is that Anderson wants a party that covers the mainstream section of the democratic party and might extend as far right as people like certain senators from Maine, RI, CT and Nebraska.

    Oh wow, you mean those last two senators are democrats. Who’d of thunk it?

    I don’t think any democratic senator is too far left but I do think that a portion of the house democrats are too far left for many people.

    Of course, you all raise a good point that the Taliban wing of the ‘publican party has significant influence over the remainder of the party while the looney left part of the democrats are basically ignored.

    But getting back to abortion. I can’t imagine my daughter getting an abortion without talking to me about it first. If she couldn’t talk to me about it then I think she should have to talk to a judge. Why can’t that be a solid part of the democrats platform?

    BTW, as a relgious Christian I really can’t figure out how anyone can be a Christian and a ‘publican. Love your neigbor as yourself just doesn’t seem like anything that would be included in any bill passed by this congress

  • I’m disappointed in the commentary here. As one of the disaffected Andersen speaks of, I think it is healthy that we have a growing segment that simply has”had it”. It matters less what Andersen says about the positions a third party would endorse, but it matters a great deal that we (a fairly large “we”) no longer have much confidence in either of the two establised ones I think the statistics DO matter in terms of the percentage of the American public who are fed up with BOTH of the parties to the point where they wish not to be associated with either.

    Maybe Clinton WAS the last best hope for the kind of government Andersen wants. But he didn’t make much of a lasting impact because: he was too busy triangulating and nuancing and micro-managing things, and worrying about whether people loved him, to have the kind of “full speed ahead” agenda that galvanizes and energizes people. And when he went down, with virtually no legacy, he took the party with him.

    So isn’t the issue whether it makes more sense for those who are “outside” both parties but less extreme than a big part of either to (1) work from within (presumably from within the Democratic Party for many of us), or (2) to seek a coalition of the “best” from both parties and FROM OUTSIDE the established power structure as we now know it? I am totally ready for that, whomever tries it — so long as it is not some narrowly defined “splinter group” like the Greens/Nader, Perot, Libertarians, Flat Taxers, etc.

    You may think that working outside the established parties is futile. OK, that’s an opinion. I suppose most “revolutions” look futile at the outset. I think that trying to accomplish sea change from within is futile in the extreme, also an opinion. A brand new auto company startup is a better bet right now than turning around General Motors. One is nearly impossible, the other is utterly doomed. And, in the case of the political parties, that’s because of what Mr. Flibble pointed out. “They” really don’t give a flip about good governance — not enough of them really want to represent us, they just want to BE our elected officials. They are quite literally and comfortably bought and paid for, locked in pretty much for life, unaccountable. THAT’S what we are fighting, not “positions” on policy, not Democrats vs Republicans, but entire mindsets and entrenched vested interests propped up by the entire privileged and bureaucratic infrastructure.

    The Republicans seem to be on a crash course. But if the Democrats DO win control, I have no faith that they will make very much of a difference. They will probably just earn a seat back on the bench in a few years, as the party that didn’t have their stuff together enough to satisfy those of us looking for honest, thoughtful, innovative, bold initiatives … and for less government where less is needed.

  • A third party is unrealistic at this stage (remember Ralph Nader in 2000 and the votes he pulled from Gore?)

    Jumpin’ Jesus on a pogo stick! I’m so sick of hearing how Ralph Nader cost Gore the election.

    Let’s get this straight. Al Gore lost the election because he was a weak-kneed “New Democrat” who was unwilling to strenuously contest the results in Florida. And he couldn’t win his home state of Tennessee. And he had Donna Brazille running his campaign. And he wouldn’t let Bill Clinton campaign for him. And he spent large portions of the presidential debates saying “I agree.” And he wouldn’t highlight Bush’s abysmal record as Texas governor. Get the picture? The election was Al Gore’s to lose and he managed to screw it up badly.

    To say a third party is “unrealistic” because it might hurt the Democrats’ chances is completely ludicrous. As the 2000 election shows, Democrats should never assume they have a lock on certain “votes.” Elections are all about convincing people you will best represent their interests and that you stand for something. A progressive, “liberal” or moderate with the right message should run as third (or fourth, or fifth) party candidate. The Democratic Party hardly represents the entire political spectrum of the “left,” just as the Republican Party hardly represents everyone on the “right.”

  • Kurt Andersen is clearly an idiot.

    Let’s suppose this hypothetical “purple” party did arise. Does Anderson think that the GOP would simply sit back and get steamrollered? Of course they would attack the entire purple party as being a coalition of unprincipled partisans and extreme wackos (that it was specifically created as an alternative to the “far left” would be irrelevant).

    Since Andersen has proven incapable of seeing through the GOP spin about the Dems, why should I assume that he would be able to see through the mud that the GOP would sling at the Purple Party. Within a few years Anderson would, no doubt, be repeating GOP smears against his beloved Purple Party (“It was created with good intentions but it lost its way…”) Then he would call for a magenta party. Then a burgundy party. Then a fire engine red party.

    People who are suckers will always be suckers. Ignore them. Ignore Kurt Andersen.


  • Jumpin’ Jesus on a pogo stick! I’m so sick of hearing how Ralph Nader cost Gore the election.

    Let’s get this straight. Al Gore lost the election because he was a weak-kneed “New Democrat” who was unwilling to strenuously contest the results in Florida.
    Goddammit.

    Al Gore WON the popular vote. In case you forgot.
    Nader CONCENTRATED his efforts on Florida. Because it was a swing state, and he wanted to make a difference. Well, he did. Bush got elected.
    The Supreme Court STOPPED the recounts. Even if Gore pushed for statewide recounts, guess what – they wouldn’t have happened. And iif they did happen, there still is no firm information that he would have won the election in such a case. A case for a win would require tossing Harris’ racist crap – which was, as far as i can tell, legal and thus unlikely to be tossed.

    All matters of the public record. Do you suggest Gore bust in and wave his revolver at the supremes until they change their mind?

    Nader threw the election. And he lost ANY sympathy when he ran Again in 2004 on the same goddamn platform. Fuck Nader. My whole family voted Nader in 2000. We all regret it.

    Was Gore’s campaign perfect? No. Was it even close? No. Was Bushes? Not hardly. Were us Naderites doing anything to stem the flood of outright fucking lies and propoganda in the cable networks and newspaper? Not a goddamn thing. We were repeating the GOP propoganda. Repeating it! And despite all that he won the popular vote anyway!

    So stop with the Nader crap!

    Moving back on topic:
    Neil, it’s that a lot of what you said is straight out of GOP talking points, and that Democrats repeating GOP talking points is a big part of the problem these days, especially when there’s no basis for them in reality.

  • And, Terry, the Democrats may well go on a binge of their own if the GOP implodes and they win a “permanent” majority. One-party states are not good for anybody. As I said before, I’m not sure where people get the impression that the Democrats–at least those today–are progressives who care about anyone but the extremely wealthy. I suspect that the Dem leadership panders to the progressives much like the GOP does to the evangelicals and bigots. In fact, I suspect that if we can figure out why progressives are so loyal to the Democrats, we can understand the general principles behind why evangelicals are so loyal to Republicans.

  • Kudos to you Neil for touching off one of the longest and best debates I have seen here on TCBR in my 2 or so years of being a daily reader!

    The Purple Party is a figment of the common imagination. The problem is not a fixed party of moderates. In fact creating a fixed party of moderates would do little good IMO. The problem is one of rigidity in policy and position. I read everyone’s posts this morning and it seems to me that the problem is that Democrats must “stand for: abortion rights. Republikans must “stand for” the free market and national security etc. There is little room for pragmatism.

    I think one of Clinton’s greatest strengths was that he looked at every situation in context and determined what each decision would do to the country. Al Gore and John Kerry appeared to take this same track though we have not had a chance to see their Executive Branch management styles in action (yet). There is never ever always one correct answer that is always true. Some laws regulating abortion are good. Some laws regulating business are good. That is not to say that in every case you should pass laws that regulate abortion and business. They need to be reviewed on a case by case basis.

    We all know what becomes of politicians who treat each problem as separate and individual. They are branded flip-floppers. As an observer of the political world it seems clear to me that it was the Republikan party that created this rigid platform, zero sum, environment. I have mentioned before that it saddens me a little that Dems are embracing these Rovian tactics to regain the government. It seem very un-Democratic.

  • Neil:

    Hope that I wasn’t too harsh comparing your comments to Republican talking points. Frankly, I am getting a little defensive given the constant assault on everything I hold dear. I am also tired of having a political conversation with anyone “on the other side” that starts reasonably about a current issue and always works its way around to criticisms of Democrats and what they would do (opinion unsupported by facts), instead of the people in charge and what they are doing. Everything you initially wrote was what I usually hear from them, hence the comparison. I hate hearing it from Democrats-even “yellow dog” Democrats–it just reinforces the stereotypes. According to my observations, the Democratic Party runs from its fringe elements (and even its center left elements) while the Republican Party embraces theirs.

    About abortion: I also have a daughter, and I also can’t imagine her getting an abortion without talking to me about it first. But then, it sounds like you and I are supportive and trust our kids to do the right thing. As I said before, if she couldn’t talk to me about it then I think she should have to talk to a judge. I also agree that it should be a solid part of the Democratic platform. But, I don’t see that it is not being a problem because I don’t hear anyone in the Democratic party advocating against parental notification laws with judicial bypass. What I do see is smart legislation from Harry Reid and the Democrats like Prevention First–a very common sense and dare I say centrist approach that only right-wingers (and/or Republicans) won’t support.

    Now, back to the topic. I don’t agree that a third way is the way to go, but I am open to persuasion. Anderson doesn’t persuade me. His entire piece is filled with perceptions about the Democratic Party that don’t fit with the reality of the party or the opposition.

  • His comments regarding Democrats and national security was certainly true up until Clinton got nominated. As someone noted, the Democrats were right about Vietnam and voters have distrusted them for it since then.

    The question, ex post Clinton, is what the Democratic party’s vision of foreign policy and national security is. One could call it a pragmatic approach, but that too often it’s treated in a reactive manner. One hears plenty of criticism over Bush’s handling of privacy issues and Iran, for instance. But, what is the Democratic proposal?

    A certain amount of that, of course, comes with being the party out of power. For instance, the Republicans had no vision other than to criticize Clinton for his handling of Bosnia and Haiti.

  • Nader CONCENTRATED his efforts on Florida. Because it was a swing state, and he wanted to make a difference.

    Bullshit. He set up a contest in Florida and every other state because that’s what a political party should do: Run a candidate and make every single race a contest. What type of political party bargains and begs their opponents to stay out a race?

  • The “Democrats-are-weak-on-defense-of-the-nation” meme is tiresome, enervated, and flat-out wrong! The nation’s greatest crisis of the 20th century, the Second World War, was successfully managed by a Democratic administration: FDR’s. The President that order the detonation of two atomic weapons in the atmosphere over Japan thus ending WWII was another Democrat, Truman. The crisis in October of 1962 was successfully resolved by another Democrat, Kennedy. And no, Kennedy did not “blink”. He resolved this country’s only nuclear war crisis DIPLOMATICALLY by facing down the Soviets at the U.N.

    How have the great Republicans managed this country’s defense? In the manner that a bunch of bellicose, right-wing jackasses would: badly. The Republicans’ defense policy is ideological smoke and mirrors. It consists of lining the pockets of defense contractors like Halliburton and attacking citizens that disagree with their ridiculous approach to defense.

    I’m not sure a “purple party” is the answer to the problem of American Republicans.

  • To Space:

    OK, in your opinion Andersen is an idiot and therefore should be ignored. I note that 22 of his 28 paragraphs (forgive me a margin of error) say virtually or actually NOTHING about “positions” or “issues”. Most of his commentary is reporting data (the very large % that have now written off both parties), recounting history (his, and 3rd parties’), speculating on what would turn “us” back on to politics (essentially that is “principles of governance” and style), and so forth. And a bit of NYCity ethnocentrism and bragging.

    I don’t think he is an idiot; he may not be the best informed on policy matters, and he obviously doesn’t agree with yours. But I think he speaks to the feelings a lot of us have, and voters are motivated by their gut feelings much of the time. Ignore the data at your peril. He is saying that the opening is there, moreso than at other times, as Greenspan also observed.

    As for the presumption that the right would label the party as a “coalition of unprincipled partisans and extreme wackos”, maybe; maybe the left would do the same. I hope you don’t believe the left is above all that kind of stuff — even if they are not as smart about how to do it. The defense against that is to populate the Performance Party or the Accountable Party (Purple implies a blend in the middle, little more) with some of the best and brightest and respected figures in society, PLUS gadflies, subject matter experts and opinion leaders from many corners. They need not be all “birds of feather” except as it pertains to their philosophy about how to govern (open, honest, flexible, focused on workable solutions for the general good).

    The “opening”, or opportunity I refer to is not fundamentally on policy issues. It is not about whose agenda is going to be followed dogmatically. It is fundamentally about offering a fresh start in terms of public service.

    I KNOW I am not an idiot, even if you label me one. I am, perhaps, an idealist. But we don’t know how many others might be in that same boat until we give them a way to express that.

  • Mark,

    I totally agree with your assessment of the Democrats’ military prowess, and you highlighted all their strengths…which apparently dissolved in 1963, with the death of JFK (or, more accurately, with the quitting of LBJ).

    Can you name a democratic military victory since ’63? I don’t allow for Kosovo, because we didn’t win the peace. Like it or not, we have been, indeed, the party most associated with the image of the “last helicopter out” – in Saigon (Republican involvement not withstanding), Iran, Somalia, etc.

    The GOP has Gulf War I and II, Afghanistan, the Cold War under Reagan. Panama, Grenada, etc.

    Let’s not debate the truth or fiction of these images right away. I want to talk about the perceptions. Our last great military leaders (of the Democrat persuasion) are more than a generation removed from the party as we know it. Kerry made his entire campaign about his military service, which was a big mistake for those who remember the winter soldier campaign.
    We can’t just be pro-military. We need to be pro-war. Patton had it right. Americans are moral, but they also love a good fight. We vote for those who know how to fight and like to do it when they have too. What JFK started at the Bay of Pigs (outsourcing our invasions) hasn’t had stellar results. Everyone, however, remembers the images of “our boys” rolling down the highway of death, or pummelling Bagdhad, or the explosions in the mountains of Afghanistan. They recall the breezy victory at Grenada. They’ve seen Noriega in chains. Uday and Qusai with brains stretched across concrete. These are all Republican gifts. Of course Democrats in congress can take some credit for these.

    But we don’t, and even if we did, we’d have to secede at least a small majority of credit to the GOPpers in power.

    Where’s our dead guy? Did Clinton bring down Aristide, or return the scalps of Somalian warlords? Did Carter bag Khomeni? Did Johnson spike Ho Chi Minh? Did Kennedy take out Castro? Where’s our guy behind bars? Timothy McVeigh? The Unabomber? Nope, these were domestics, so the credit (rightly or wrongly) goes to the eff bee eye.

    For all our warmaking prowess that you correctly attest to, it has been a long time since Nagasaki and the bowing of the Emperor to a Democrat’s military finesse.

    We’ve got to prove that our way of doing things doesn’t just sanction the bad guys, but that it also tends to put them behind bars for war crimes or just cuts to the chase and guns them down.

    We don’t need a purple party, we just needs one that remembers how to remain moral while killing the posterboys for evil.

  • A third political party can never realise its aims in first past the post voting systems unless the two major parties simultaneously disgrace themselves irredeemably. Unlikely. However, a Purple Party could be a constructive social movement with a political agenda. The opportunity to be part of this movement is yours at purpleparty.com . See you there

  • I was going to start a Purple Party. I would like to go ahed. I would like to run . Please let any supportrs contact me.
    Thank you

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