The race and the region — or, ‘What’s the matter with Appalachia?’

A few weeks ago, before the North Carolina primary, Jonathan Martin noted the counties in Appalachia that had voted in the Democratic primaries, and Hillary Clinton’s unusually strong performance in these counties as compared to Barack Obama. Since then, we’ve seen additional evidence that this is a specific region that has overwhelmingly preferred Clinton to Obama.

By now, most have probably seen the chart DHinMI posted, showing each of the counties nationwide in which Clinton has won 65% or more of the vote. Putting aside Michigan, where Obama wasn’t even on the ballot, it’s hard not to notice that Appalachia and Clinton’s strongest counties seem to overlap very closely.

Now, it’s possible there’s something unique about Hillary Clinton that has driven lower-income, working-class (no college) whites in this specific region to her campaign in droves, but it seems more likely that there’s something unique about Barack Obama that has done the opposite. In this case, it’s the color of his skin.

I started to explain over the weekend that the distinction is more than just about race, income, rural areas, and education, but rather, is about the Appalachian region in specific. There are other areas in the country that are just as white, just as educated, just as rural, and nearly as poor, but did not give Clinton 40-point margins, suggesting regional attitudes are driving the results.

Indeed, the more Appalachian, the more obvious the trend. Parts of Ohio and Pennsylvania are Appalachian, and those are the parts where Obama struggled most. West Virginia is all Appalachian, and that’s where Obama lost by 41 points.

As Josh Marshall explained, “Obama’s problem isn’t with white working class voters or rural voters. It’s Appalachia. That explains why Obama had a difficult time in Ohio and Pennsylvania and why he’s getting crushed in West Virginia and Kentucky. If it were just a matter of rural voters or the white working class, the pattern would show up in other regions. But by and large it does not.”

So, what’s the matter with Appalachia? Josh, noting that the state is both older, whiter, and the least educated in the nation, puts on the professor’s hat to highlight the history.

During the 18th and 19th centuries, in the middle Atlantic and particularly in the Southern states, there was a long-standing cleavage between the coastal and ‘piedmont’ regions on the one hand and the upcountry areas to the west on the other. It’s really the coastal lowlands and the Appalachian districts. On the other side of the Appalachian mountain range the pattern is flipped, with the Appalachians in the east and the lowlands in the west.

These regions were settled disproportionately by Scots-Irish immigrants who pushed into the hill country to the west in part because that’s where the affordable land was but also because they wanted to get away from the more stratified and inegalitarian society of the east which was built by English settlers and their African slaves. Crucially, slavery never really took root in these areas. And this is why during the Civil War, Unionism (as in support for the federal union and opposition to the treason of secession) ran strong through the Appalachian upcountry, even into Deep South states like Alabama and Mississippi.

As I alluded to earlier, this was the origin of West Virginia, which was originally the westernmost part of Virginia. The anti-slavery, anti-slaveholding upcountry seceded from Virginia to remain in the Union after Virginia seceded from the Union. Each of these regions was fiercely anti-Slavery. And most ended up raising regiments that fought in the Union Army. But they were as anti-slave as they were anti-slavery, both of which they viewed as the linchpins of the aristocratic and inegalitarian society they loathed. It was a society that was both more violent and more self-reliant.

This is history. But it shapes the region. It’s overwhelmingly white, economically underdeveloped (another legacy of the pre-civil war pattern) and arguably because of that underdevelopment has very low education rates and disproportionately old populations.

For all these reasons, if you’re familiar with the history, it’s really no surprise that Barack Obama would have a very hard time running in this region.

Expect similar results in six days when Kentucky voters head to the polls.

I think it is more likely Clinton pulling those people than Obama driving them away.

I could be completely wrong but

If you thought things got better for you in the 90’s under Clinton then you would be more inclined to vote for his wife this time around.

If you are young, then you don’t remember the 80’s to compare them with the 90’s. If you are educated then you see things differently. If you are upper middle class then your current situation might be different.

Anyway, those are my 2cents

  • to me this correlates with the residual white racists that were the backbone of the original KKK ……… that’s where they live ……….

  • If you thought things got better for you in the 90’s under Clinton then you would be more inclined to vote for his wife this time around.

    If you are young, then you don’t remember the 80’s to compare them with the 90’s. If you are educated then you see things differently. If you are upper middle class then your current situation might be different.

    Well that may all be true, but the whole point of the discussion is that in other areas of the country, the non-youth white working class electorate doesn’t back Hilllary nearly as strongly as they do in Appalachia. Places like Washington, Wisconsin. There really does seem to be something different about Appalachia, which isn’t described by the dynamic you mention.

  • I’m an Obama Democrat who was raised in Tennessee and currently lives in the mountains of western North Carolina. White working class voters in this area get their political information from Rush Limbaugh and right-wing talk radio, if they get it at all. There is no liberal media here. These voters recognize that the economy is a mess but blame it on the liberals in Congress. They know Iraq is a disaster but blame it on the Muslims (all of them, in every Muslim country because, you know, they all hate us). These are voters who completely believe the Republican gospel: that the librul, gay, gun-hating media is responsible for all their troubles and if we’d just deport all the illegal aliens, the economy would be fine. I’d bet at least half of Hillary’s votes came from Phlegmbaugh’s Operation Chaos and the rest from people who’d vote for Hitler before they’d vote for a liberal Democrat.

  • I grew up in West Virginia, in a county where Clinton took about 85% of the vote last night. Marshall’s historical explanation is certainly in line with my experience, but I don’t think it fully captures the poverty– not only material but also cultural and intellectual– that pervades there. It really is like a different world, where the concerns of the rest of the nation and world are viewed as remote, almost theoretical, not “real” in the sense of affecting anyone’s daily life. Add to that a culture of violent anti-intellectualism and a reflexive suspicion of anything viewed as foreign or exotic, and it’s easy to see why Obama fares so poorly even before taking racism into account. (Racism in most parts of WV is a mostly academic exercise, as there are hardly any minorities to be prejudiced against. I can remember three or four black students in my high school when I was there, maybe a couple of Asians, and about 99% white students of largely Scotch-Irish extraction).

    Once again I count my blessings to have escaped the place.

  • It really is like a different world, where the concerns of the rest of the nation and world are viewed as remote, almost theoretical, not “real” in the sense of affecting anyone’s daily life. Add to that a culture of violent anti-intellectualism and a reflexive suspicion of anything viewed as foreign or exotic, and it’s easy to see why Obama fares so poorly even before taking racism into account.
    —————————————————————————————————————————–
    Kind of reinforces the stereotype of the in-bred Cletus, doesn’t it…Maybe there should be a country-wide exchange program, where NY’ers w spend time down south and Southern folk from rural areas spend a day in the life in our shoes. People from San Fran live in Wyoming, etc….sort of like Wife Swap reality show, lol.

    Stepping out of one’s comfort zone/neighborhood is the first step to understanding how this melting pot all gels together.

  • Steve:

    I checked your hypothesis that these results are regional, not demographic, by looking at the primary results in Vermont by county. As you know, there is a lot of “Appalachia” in rural Vermont, particularly the Northeast Kingdom. But Obama won every county and the ratios were fairly consistent throughout. I think you’re on to something.

  • The roads suck in WVA too.
    That’s my two cents.
    No, really, here is a post I wrote yesterday on the same topic (here on CB):

    Since I was raised in the South (NC), and now live in KY, I like to think that I can speak with some experience on the matter of racism, bigotry, media misinformation, etc.

    Bottom Line: Drive through any southern state and you will see more rebel flags than Old Glory – which is technically treasonous. I know the Obabma supporters won’t like this, but there are simply WAY TOO MANY people out there that will not vote for Obama BECAUSE HE IS BLACK. The flag pins, Muslim rumors, Reverand Wright, are all simply convenient excuses for people to rationalize not supporting him. They may THINK they are not judging him by race, but they are.

    And this is across the board; we’re not just talking about ignorant rednecks here. Even my own brother, a medical school graduate doing his residency in Oregon of all places has said he will not vote for Obama because he will be beholden to black interests, i.e. Sharpton, Jackson, etc.

  • As a college professor’s kid growing up in the Appalachian mountains of Virginia — coal-mining country — I can say that this sounds like a pretty fair assessment. I knew only two black people before I turned twenty in 1983. By 1990, my hometown of Wise, Va, had 20% unemployment because coal mining had slowed or been automated. Poverty and welfare were and are rampant. While I got a splendid secondary education, that portion of the state sees precious little funding for schools and programs. In these ways my birthplace is very much like West Virginia and Kentucky.

    The people I grew up with were not stupid, as many have suggested in posts over the last 24 hours. Nor do I recall a particularly large number of racists compared to where I live now [a central Virginia city that carried Obama]. But they have been, throughout history, a neglected society.

    When they’ve been courted by outside forces, they have been easily swayed. Unionization of the coal fields brought with it more progressive attitudes, awareness and voting. Then, right-wing religious fanaticism’s press into the Appalachians rekindled a more conservative “Old Time Religion” fear of new ideas.

    Meanwhile, with the exception of young white kids listening to rap, there has not been a large infusion of African American culture over the years. Just as you won’t find a Seldom Scene album in Compton, you won’t find much Ornette Coleman in Big Stone Gap [although I do know this one guy…].

    Add to this the Clinton name and I believe we’re looking not at racism or stupidity at work here, but benign neglect, naivety and unfamiliarity as the culprits.

    There are plenty of TVs and cable modems in Appalachia. And newspapers and radios too. But TV, the Internet, etc. do little to actually educate or fuel progress. Rather it’s the face-to-face meeting of people and ideas — and investment in schools, industry and people — that do the influencing. And these meetings, to my recollection, are few and far between.

    Just some thoughts.

  • So assuming this analysis is right, my next question is, can Obama win the electoral college without Appalachia? Obviously he can win the popular vote (he’s leading in the current polls, which shows it’s at least possible). But I’d like to see someone crunch the numbers to see how a full general election blowout in Appalachia would affect his electoral college performance. Obviously states which are only partially Appalachian he might win anyway (e.g. Ohio, Pennsylvania), although again, I’d like to see someone who really knows the numbers crunch ’em and see if it works.

    Any takers?

  • West Virginia has a particularly unique history. In the 1600’s the territory was deeded to Lord Fairfax, who was essentially an absentee landlord. After the Revolution, people started moving to the area, but a descendent of Fairfax, Denny Martin, took the case to the Supreme Court and in 1816 won his case. As immigrants came to the US, WV then became the worst place to go, since you couldn’t get clear title to land. However, many of the poorest did come here, and built shacks with the intention of staying until they were forced out. Eventually the real estate issues were ironed out and many went to work for railroads and mines, but the identity of distrust and isolationism remains to this day. Though I live less than a hundred miles from DC, I am amazed by how many people tell me they have never been to “a city”. You can see how vulnerable many are to fearmongering over terrorism and immigrant invasions. Even the threat of widening roads or zoning laws get people riled. I don’t, however, understand what it is that the Clintons tapped into. I think JRD’s comments (5) are pretty close, particularly the anti-intellectuallism . It would be interesting to see a poll of how many young people who graduate from WV colleges stay here. I bet the number would be really low.

    At the same time, it amazes me how many people measure their time here in generations. There are a lot of people who tell stories about the Civil War as though it was “back when I was a boy.” And I would add that the only radio people listen to more than right wing talk shows, are police scanners.

  • Thanks to dalloway and JRD for sharing their experiences with this part of our country; I have never visited Appalachia myself. It makes me wonder what can be done to improve the lives and education of these folks. It’s a shame that most of these people have no way to get out their current situation. Though perhaps they see nothing wrong since they’ve experienced nothing else. And no, I don’t think it’s judgmental of me to hope they could improve their lot.

    It’s sick to think that Rush et al. exploit these people’s ignorance and prejudice by spewing hate and lies for economic gain.

    If dalloway or JRD would like to comment further, I would love to read it.

  • OK – the people in WV have spoken and their votes were counted. They are not critical to anyones success in the fall, despite what they lying liars in the MSM will try to have you believe.

    Who they vote for and why doesn’t really matter a bit to anyone other than shillary, her campaign, and the concern trolls that are sure to weigh in here.

    They have expressed their opinions and now can go back to breeding with their brothers and sisters while playing hooky from school or droppin’ out at age 10.

    They do not represent a “critical” voting block – Obama will work for them and his interests just as hard as he will work for the rest of working America.

    If they are not smart enough to back a real working class man instead of an elitist that was actually on the board of directors at walmart, so be it. They really don’t matter – do not represent the rest of the country and don’t deserve any special recognition or pandering.

    They certainly don’t represent democratic ideals, never have, and never will until perhaps the rest of America, without their support, elects a more honest president.

  • I don’t believe that “racism in the Appalachians” [as if that’s where all the racists are hiding] could possibly cost Obama the election. However, I do believe that he could easily win over a large proportion of the region’s people who voted for Hillary by spending a day or two talking to them. Appalachians are by and large very good and receptive people, especially the Democrats.

  • to me this correlates with the residual white racists that were the backbone of the original KKK ……… that’s where they live ………. – stormskies

    You moron, who do you think fought the civil war to free the slaves in the first place? KKK is more based in the south, not the north.

    BHO’s issue is not race, it’s trustworthiness, inexperience, questionable acquaintances, abhorrent practices (claims to be new politics while attacking Clinton), Wright, Ayers, Bittergate, etc.

    These problems will doom his candidacy.. the color of his skin is NOT the problem.

  • chrenson – we’ll see – on the education front, there are many ways of documenting what the situation is – proclaim they are smart and highly educated all you want. It’s easy to check this out and most of us know what you will find.

    If they want to vote mclame – let them – Obama doesn’t need them. Even if they are too stooooooopid to vote in their best interests, the rest of America is getting ready. Dems have won 3 or 3 IMPOSSIBLE repug districts this spring.

    So make all the proclamations you want – the facts are easy to check and we will all be able to look back in the fall and say – you know what – they really didn’t matter at all.

    But we will see, won’t we.

  • Little Brain [16] “They certainly don’t represent democratic ideals, never have, and never will until perhaps the rest of America, without their support, elects a more honest president.

    You certainly don’t represent Democratic ideals either, but instead drive home a single truth in no uncertain terms — that truth being what a monumental ass you are.

  • Greg – Obama netted at least 4 more superdelegats today – how many did shillary get?

    The rest of America knows that the nation was not founded to be run by a bush-clinton-bush-clinton junta, so troll all you want and proclaim that shillary’s base support has nothing to do with racism.

    And then in the same sentence, proclaim that the uneducated white vote is somehow more important

    You can’t have it both ways – by definition your arguments are racist. You (and shillary’s campaign) believe that the votes of uneducated whites should somehow be considered more important than the votes of people of color.

    Pure racism despite what you proclaim.

  • Greg (18):BHO’s issue is not race, it’s trustworthiness, inexperience, questionable acquaintances, abhorrent practices (claims to be new politics while attacking Clinton), Wright, Ayers, Bittergate, etc.

    I think you’re holding Obama to a standard Mother Theresa couldn’t live up to. And certainly not Clinton or McCain, based on the examples you offer.

  • Stephen Frug @ 13.

    Fortunately, we don’t need to be good at crunching numbers.. you can see how much this hurts BHO by looking at the state by state numbers and Electoral College votes based on those polls here:

    http://www.electoral-vote.com

    click on “Obama vs. McCain” to see how he is doing vs. McCain (He is losing 237-290 currently)

    Click on “Clinton vs. McCain” to see how she is doing vs McCain (She is winning 280-241 currently)

    This is not new, these trends have been very close to this for weeks.

  • crapson – there aren’t really a lot of points that should matter.

    (1). If you advocate for shillary, you stand for a bush-clinton-bush-clinton dynasty. Its that simple and most of America wants change and will not support 28 years of these 2 elite families.

    (2). Walmart is an OVERWHELMINGLY repug corp, giving most all of their money to that party – certainly doesn’t reflect democratic values – shillary was on their board of director for 6 years.

    (3). Clinton’s record in the senate is one of rubber-stamping virtually EVERYTHING that dur chimpfurher has asked for – no democratic ideals there.

    (4). Proclaim it has nothing to do with race all you want – most of those same folks then state that the uneducated white vote is somehow more important, like it counts more in the fall. It doesn’t and it is inherently racist to argue that it does.

  • When I read ‘Gone with the Wind’ a couple of things struck me that the author pointed out.

    One, the poor ‘White Trash’ was often better educated then the Aristocratic Elite (certainly they had better grammer).
    Two, House Slaves actually thought themselves better than the poor ‘White Trash’.
    Three (as has been noted here), Slavery was the foundation of Southern Aristocratic Culture.

    If as Steve suggests the Scots-Irish fled Southern ‘Culture’ for the Hills, their distrust of it may still remain. Overcoming that distrust, rather than just dismissing it as racism, is the proper route to follow.

    Just don’t call them ‘bitter’ because you can’t win their votes.

  • DanP, BHO claimed to be above the politics of old, yet he attacked Clinton over and over again.

    http://attacktimeline.com

    So you see, he is the one who set the standards.. not me, and certainly not Hillary.

  • chrenson…

    81% of Hillary supporters in WVA cited race as an important factor in their vote.

  • In response to #7 Tomb who wrote:

    “As you know, there is a lot of “Appalachia” in rural Vermont, particularly the Northeast Kingdom. But Obama won every county and the ratios were fairly consistent throughout. I think you’re on to something.”

    I have to say there is not a lot “Appalachia” in rural Vermont. It is something else entirely. Having lived in the Northeast Kingdom all of my life, and having visited the rural Appalachian region, I think the only similarity is the landscape.

    One difference I see is that folks who live in rural Appalachia seem to want everybody on the same page, so to speak, in their communities. They mistrust folks who don’t conform to the cultural norms. Here in rural Vermont, it is more of a “live and live” attitude that supports non-conformity and “characters” who step out bounds. We like up-starts, fiesty spit-fires, people who march to their own beat, etc. Obama is interesting, different and doing what many thought he could not do. Vermonters LOVE that.

    I think Hillary seems safe to the people in Appalachia and Obama seems risky.

  • NARAL Pro-Choice America PAC is excited to announce that it endorses Sen. Barack Obama for president in 2008. Sen. Obama has a fully pro-choice record, and we are confident that as president he will be a champion for women’s reproductive rights. As the senator himself said, “It’s not just an issue of choice, but equality and opportunity for all women.”

    They have switched and no longer endorse shillary – but go ahead and tell me how the least educated white voters (mostly male) somehow are more important than the rest of the democrats and independents in America.

    Oh – and don’t forget all the votes shillary gets from the endorsement of rush limpballs.

    Yup, appalachian white voters and operation chaos should determine the fate of the democratic party, right?

  • Little Prick [24]

    Here’s the only point that matters in my book. You say that Appalachians “have expressed their opinions and now can go back to breeding with their brothers and sisters while playing hooky from school or droppin’ out at age 10.” And you call Hillary “elitist.”

    Do you even read your posts before you submit them?

  • littlebear, you continue to confuse Clinton with Bush.. let me dumb it down for you..

    Clinton = 8 years of prosperity, peace, and growth
    Bush = 8 years of war, job loss, recession

    In case you did not notice, BUSH AND CLINTON ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

  • 81% of Hillary supporters in WVA cited race as an important factor in their vote. – Wilco

    What rock are you people climbing out from under? Did you even look at the exit polls before regurgitating this nonsense?

    20% of the people said race mattered, and of that 20%, 81% voted for HRC.

    Considering that MOST of the vote wen to HRC, you could take any statistic and say that most of those voters voted for HRC and you would be correct, because MOST of the people in West Virginia voted for HRC.. moron!

  • Wilco [27]

    “1% of Hillary supporters in WVA cited race as an important factor in their vote.” According to…?

    And I did not say that race was not a factor, only that characterizing all Appalachians as racists is a gross misconception. My contention is that race is a factor, not because Appalachians hate black people, but because Appalachians aren’t as familiar with African Americans or their culture. There is a difference. Similarly I contend that “stupidity” is not a factor while a lack of educational opportunities is.

    After all, is it necessarily racism that has driven a majority of black people to vote for Barack? Or is it cultural differences, community, etc. and not blind hatred?

  • Let’s see! The greater majority of the Black vote went for Obama. The greater majority of the White vote went for Hillary. Is there a Black KKK? This discussion is nothing but BS. Most of you are either too immature politically or have no clue.
    You wait until the GE and see how the votes come out when the curtain is drawn.
    That’s why the caucuses were so successful for Obama. Racism is NOT subtle nor is it particular to any color. It works both ways. So does gender bias and all the rest.

  • Greg(26): That site you linked is absolutely absurd. But the bigger point is this. You can decide what standard is acceptable or not, but to claim you’re going to accept a lower standard for Clinton, because she never promised to play fair, is extremely disingenous. And Obama never promised he would never criticize her policies or contradictions. But what she does that he doesn’t do is manufacture controversies like his drug or religious past, or tell people that her opponent doesn’t care about hard working people, or intentionally blur issues like his war position or his NAFTA position.

  • Greg, why are you being so sensitive and taking this personally?

    That was how MSNBC presented it this morning.
    If I misinterpreted it, I suppose I’m a moron who lives under a rock. Clearly.

    Thankfully, I’m not a jerk.

  • It’s the dueling banjos, incest vote. Not to be underestimated. Hope the drool didn’t short out the Diebolt machines.

  • Danp, once again you missed the point. The point is that BHO is no different than any other politician, despite what he claims.

    Nobody said he was playing unfair, just politics as usual.

  • In case you did not notice, BUSH AND CLINTON ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

    And in case you did not notice, Hilary Clinton and Bill Clinton are different people.

  • I think the Appalachian areas are more homogenous and isolated (therefore distrustful of outsiders). My husband’s family settled in the hills of KY in the 1600’s. I read that his ancestor came over on the boat from England with another man, whose daughter he married. When my husband’s grandmother died, we went to that little town in the hills of KY and my in-laws stayed with a family that had the same surname as the man who came over on the boat with their ancestor. The same families have been in those hills for over 300 years. His family also ran stills and later owned a bourbon company. When I asked him what his cousins did up there to make a living, he said they grow illegal crops. He also warned me not to ask any of them what they do…so the suspicion of outsiders, even those related, is still rampant.

    My husband tells another funny story. His nuclear family left the little town in the hills of KY and moved to the big city, Louisville. My father-in-law was an engineer and moved a lot for his company so my husband got caught up in the hippie culture in Princeton,NJ when he was a teenager. He went back to the hills to visit his grandmother and was hitch-hiking near her home when a truck load of his cousins from the hills picked him up with the intention of beating the hippie out of him until they found out he was related. LOL.

  • Wilco, I took it personally because you mis-represented the truth. I watched MSNBC this morning, which is how I knew you what you said was incorrect.. how could we both have watched the same channel and yet one of us be so completely wrong?

  • Deja vu – I first became aware of Appalachia when John Kennedy was elected president and started talking up a book called “The Other America,” which went on to become a huge best seller. That book was the single greatest force for getting the JFK/LBJ War on Poverty in place.

    And then a few years later a DLC DINO named Bill Clinton came along and gutted many of the provisions of that great movement in his so called “Welfare Reform.” Quite a few West Vrginians are probably worse off now than they were before that happened – but they turn around and vote for his wife…

  • Appalachia has the same ethnic makeup as the white South, Scottish-English, without the Black population to equalize the vote. Without the Black vote, Obama wouldn’t have won in the South. It truly is a new coalition that’s putting him over: progressive whites, blacks and middle-class people of all stripes who are just plain fed up with Republicans and Dems-as usual and are looking for significant change.

  • cherenson,

    I think you’re letting the Appalacian denizens off the hook a little too easily. When we’re talking about adult human beings in the United States of America in the twenty-first century, I don’t really see a lot of difference between “stupidity” and “benign neglect, naivety and unfamiliarity,” except that your phrasing puts a better spin on the fact that an unfortunately large segment of this population is not only uneducated but actively anti-intellectual, with little knowledge of or interest in the affairs of the broader nation or world. While it’s indisputably true that much of this is the result of an isolationist culture that has built up over centuries and derives in large part from the fact that until very recently, there was relatively little access to and from these areas from the rest of the country (there’s still only one “major” airport in the state of West Virginia, and I use that term loosely), and so the people became largely self-sufficient but also insulated from the outside world. But surely it’s fair to criticize Appalachians for the flaws in their culture, notwithstanding the fact that it’s one they were born into. This is a conservative culture in the classic sense of the term, actively resistant to change and obstinantly proud of its own traditions, which generally involve some combination of overuse of alcohol, hunting, and professional sports to the exclusion of most anything else. Indeed, pretty much the most divisive social issue in West Virginia is whether one is a Marshall fan or a WVU fan. I do think you’re right that the race-sensitivity we see there is due more to unfamiliarity than to active hostility, but again, there are so few actual black people in most of this region that the hostility which I suspect would otherwise manifest itself simply has little opportunity to do so (though there certainly was some overt racism in my hometown when I was living there).

    Hannah,
    I do think there may be some grounds for hope. The state has opened up a lot just within my lifetime; new highways are being built that make access to and from the state much easier, and I think the Internet has made some difference in providing access to those who want it. The problem remains, though, and I’ve certainly seen it with my own acquaintances from my hometown and the surrounding areas, that those who obtain any post-secondary education tend to leave the state or to cluster in the relatively larger towns like Huntington, Morgantown, Charleston, and the eastern panhandle (the area where Danp lives which is quite close to D.C.), so I’m not sure how much change will occur in the rural areas, or how quickly it might take place.

  • Although nobody can argue that Hillary had a big win last night, everyone is inflating her margins by comparing them to Obama and not to the field (Obama plus Edwards).

    Notice that lots of people say that Edwards has no problem with the white working class voters, yet he came in way behind Obama, a 3-1 margin.

    My point is that the vote was FOR Hillary, not AGAINST Obama.

    Her margin of victory was 34% over the field.

    Another thing to look at is that Obama seems to have more of a problem with West Virginia. Look at the categories where he usually gets more support:

    Postgraduate: 55/40/5 Clinton/Obama/Edwards
    White Dems: 74/21/5
    White Indis: 55/30/15
    Conservative: 60/25/15
    Can bring Change: 50/44/6
    White Catholic: 57/40/3
    White Men: 63/27/10
    *White Women: 75/19/6
    Small Towns: 60/33/7
    Age 17-29: 59/35/6

    What stands out is that the results look more like what you would expect if Obama didn’t campaign in the state.

    Also, Obama lost a lot of votes to Edwards in the Independent/Conservative category. Maybe that means more about McCain than anything else. These folks could have voted for McCain, but instead voted for Edwards.

    Obama’s best showing is among voters who think the top quality is ability to bring change 50/44/6, and that is 46% of the voters in WV. Nine percent thought electability was the top quality, and Hillary got 75% of the vote. Clearly this will not be a concern in November.

  • Greg – some simple algebraic proofs:

    mclame = bush
    clinton = mclame
    clinton’s voting record = EVERYTHING dur chimpfurher has asked for

    therefore: clinton=bush

    Why don’t shillary and folks like you publically denounce rush limpballs’ operation chaos.

    Here’s a little more algebra:

    limpballs = bush
    limpballs = clinton

    therefore, clinton = bush

    greg – are ya learnin’ anything?

    Or how about this one:

    walmart = repug/neocons – that’s where their money goes
    clinton (on board of directors 6 years) = walmart
    repug/neocons = bush

    Therefore, clinton = bush

  • JRD,

    I think you’re selling your home state short. “Stupid” means: “lacking ordinary quickness and keenness of mind; dull.” There is a big difference between lacking keenness of mind and lacking educational opportunities. Inner city children lack educational opportunities, but it is absolute heresy for a liberal to say that they are stupid or anti-intellectual.

    Every spot on the map has it’s anti-intellectuals, for God’s sake. And isn’t it true that the real “anti-intellectuals” are proudly Republican? Isn’t it also true that the polling between Obama and Clinton universally breaks along educational levels predominately, not pro- or anti-intellectual lines?

    Saying WV went for Clinton because they’re stupid rednecks is the same thing as saying Chicago went for Obama because they’re stupid blacks. It’s gross generalization, the flagship of conservativism. And it’s just not the kind of language real liberals and progressives use.

    How many major airports are there in Rhode Island?

  • CB:

    I’m glad to see someone else has noticed this pattern. As someone who lives in state (Minnesota) with a mostly white population that when for Obama, I always thought that the MSM narrative about how Obama has a problem with working class whites was too simplistic.

    Then again maybe all the white people in Minnesota are all just a bunch of liberal eggheads with too much college book learnin’. Same for Iowa, and Wisconsin, and . . .

  • Here’s a pretty good visual representation of why Obama is the stronger candidate. It really blows the racist “uneducated white voters are more important” lie out of the water.

    Obama has won 15 landslides to Clinton’s 3

    Obama has won 12 big double-digit victories to Clinton’s 7

    Total contests: Obama 32, Clinton 16

    Those that spew the “but white people are more important” crap are clearly lying liars.

  • West Virginia is a lot bigger than Rhode Island, chrenson. But I’m sure you know that.

    “Every spot on the map has it’s anti-intellectuals, for God’s sake.”
    That may be true, but my comments were directed at the prevailing culture of the state, not at some handful of insular outliers. Obviously everything I said was a generalization to which individual exceptions exist, and even the generalization is less true in the

    “And isn’t it true that the real “anti-intellectuals” are proudly Republican?”
    No, for two reasons. There are plenty of intellectual Republicans; go read the Volokh Conspiracy, for example. To the extent you’re talking specifically about the social/religious conservative wing of the Republican Party, in my experience a large segment of the West Virginian Democratic population isn’t very different; they’re just fiercely pro-union and therefore are registered Democrats.

    As to the lack of educational opportunities, to some degree I suppose that’s true, though I would say it isn’t so much the lack of opportunities (one can get a decent education at WVU– I did) but a lack of financial resources to pursue them that is much of the problem. I don’t mean to completely disregard that point, but lack of financial resources itself is not a terribly compelling reason for foregoing post-secondary education, though; WVU is remarkably cheap in comparison to most state universities (and the other public schools in the state are even cheaper), and sufficient loans, grants, and scholarships exist for nearly anyone who desires to continue their education to do so. The real problem, I think, is simply a lack of appreciation for such things, and in that I think it’s perfectly fair to criticize Appalachians despite the fact that they are to some extent products of the culture into which they are born. Perhaps I’m a liberal heretic, but I also think it’s perfectly fair to say that inner-city blacks bear some of the responsibility for the outcomes of their own lives as well, regardless of the fact that they start with substantial disadvantages.

    Of course, I never said that West Virginians voted for Clinton solely for that reason, and moreover, you and I seem to be in agreement that support for Clinton over Obama was due in part to West Virginians’ cultural insularity. You’re just more forgiving about that fact than I am.

  • Sorry, to complete that unfinished thought:

    Obviously everything I said was a generalization to which individual exceptions exist, and even the generalization is less true in the larger towns that I mentioned above than it is in the rural areas. But for the state population taken as a whole, I think it’s fair; it’s certainly accurate as to my home county.

  • Apologies for repeating myself, but I may copy this frequently — as necessary. (From last night’s open thread)

    Some time ago I came up with Prup’s Law (actually, Prup’s first law, but no need to mention the other ones now). It goes
    “Whatever position you take on any political, religious, sexual, or social dispute, you will have some idiots agreeing with you.”
    Thank you, little bear, for giving yet another demonstration of this.

    —-
    And before you drag out your “Wondrous Word of the Week” (okay, phrase), I’ll remind you
    a) this will be my 11th Presidential vote and I have always voted for the Democrat, even the egregious Dukakis and for Gore-Lieberman despite the fact that I hated Joe for his pro-censorship stand. (In fact, the last time I remember voting for a Republican was in the Philly Mayoral election, when the Democrats ran the corrupt, homophobic, pro-War racist, Frank Rizzo and the Republicans ran the truly progressive “limousine liberal” Thatcher Longstreth.)
    b) I have been commenting here — off and on — for over two years and you might look at the consistency of my positions over that time
    c) I have been an Obama supporter for months, and warned against Hillary as early as last year.

  • prup – don’t really agree with you on anything at all – but if it makes you feel more important to believe that everyone worships your every post – go ahead.

    I might suggest that you key a little slower and let your brain catch up with your little tiny thoughts – but go ahead – announce to the world how important you are if you prefer.

  • I’m glad to know, LittleBear that you “don’t really agree with [me] on anything at all.” In other words:
    You are not a Democrat.
    You don’t support Obama. and
    You don’t oppose Hillary.

    Because that’s what I actually said in my post.

    None of which — if true — would surprise me.

    I know, I shouldn’t indulge in troll-feeding. But I was just glad to see you demonstrate your ‘tiny, little’ reading comprehension — or your true colors.

  • If you go to pollster.com, or fivethirtyeight.com or even electoral-vote.com, you’ll see that the Appalachia states that matter (PA, OH) are already showing Obama with a nice lead over McCain in PA and he’s only 2% behind in OH.

    WV? Not a chance. But around the country, he’s even looking competitive in AK, MT, NE, CO, NV, VA, ND, NC and SC, all states that are typically GOP.

    Obama polls above 50% in VT, RI, MA, CT, NY, NJ, DE, MD, DC, IL, MN, CA, OR, WA, and HI (196 electoral votes), He’s ahead a few points in ME, PA, IA, CO (41 electoral votes). He’s 1 pt behind in NM, MI, OH, FL (69 electoral votes). So that’s 316 electoral votes where he’s leading or behind by 1 point !

    Add AK, NV, MT, NE, ND, MO, VA, NC and SC, where he’s currently 2-6 pts behind McCain, and that’s another 66 electoral votes where he’s competitive, for 382 electoral votes if he won them all.

    So can he win? It depends.

    If only he knew how to campaign well, how to raise lots of money, and how to conduct a good GOTV ground operation, he could win.

  • Kevin:
    I insist you are far too pessimistic. McCain — or his replacement if my other prediction comes true — won’t win 100 electoral votes.

    What people keep forgetting is that there is no ‘up-side’ to McCain. He’s currently at the peak of his ‘appeal.’ From here on, any scrutiny he gets — even if it is not as piercing as I expect it will be — only costs him votes and popularity. (Much the same might have been true about Hillary. Her real peak was before Super Tuesday.)

    Then add in your three factors. He isn’t a good campaigner. (Realize that he managed not to win the nomination, but to be the only one who didn’t lose it. Through the entire Primary season, incredibly, he was never THE story on the Republican side. Giuliani was, then Romney, then Huckabee — with the Paulistas being the most interesting ‘sidebar.’ McCain never grabbed center stage even against the crowd of second-raters he was competing against.)

    Money? The big givers can smell defeat, and many of them are ideologically dubious about McCain.

    More importantly, what ‘little givers’ the Republicans have traditionally attracted have been the Limbaugh-lovers (who are still confused whether they have been commanded to hate or support McCain) and the church people — who may still ‘hold their noses’ (or, in their cases. cross themselves) and VOTE for McCain, but I don’t see them sending much money to him.

    This is much more important for the GOTV effort, which has always been — at least unofficially — church centered. Again, this requires enthusiasm, and McCain just doesn’t inspire it.

    No, he might win one big state, plus Utah and Idaho, but everyplace else is up for grabs, including West Virginia.

  • One other factor. We’re used to ‘coattails’ but we rarely look at ‘top hats’ (to — I think — coin a phrase). I mean ‘downticket’ candidates whose popularity brings people out to vote so they vote for the President. (I’d argue that both Gore and Kerry benefitted from this.)

    But this year there won’t be many top hats on the Republican side. Not only are Republicans not that popular this year, but if Obama begins to make the case that “McCain is a third-term for Bush,” or if McCain has more ‘senior moments’ or his lobbying ties get a big play, or anything else makes him appear even shakier, Republicans are going to start running away from McCain. (Tip-off that this is happening? When you see Republican candidates not using the word “Republican” in their advertising.)

  • As I have read through all of the comments and thought about my own personal experiences with Appalachians as well as various writings about the region and people, it strikes me that Obama was (and is) up against an institutional/cultural discrimination that pervades even the most well-meaning situations and people. But this is more difficult to address than other types of institutional discrimination because it is less concrete and more esoteric than other types. One can address institutional discrimination in education, religion, the military, government, and business or corporations by making changes to organizational structures, processes, and procedures. That was the intention behind Affirmative Action. But you can’t easily address institutional discrimination based on the family and an ethnicity heavily defined by family origin. Even more so in an ethnicity (there has been serious discussion of Appalachians as a distinct ethnicity) that historically has known no other safety net than the family.

    If Barack’s mother was an eccentric but accepted member of an extended Appalachian family, I bet you anything that they would be out in full force campaigning for him with an unofficial but well-intentioned campaign slogan, “Maybe he is black, but he’s one of ours!” And they would be unable to see anything wrong with that.

    And I bet that Barack gets this better than most. Take his San Francisco comment about guns and religion and substitute family and ethnicity. Ironically, the man who loses out the most because of it also understands it best.

  • In response to Clar-z: I think we agree.

    When I said that there is a lot of “Appalachia” in Vermont, I was referring to the demographic profile – rural, isolated, ethnically homogenous (same basic stock), lots of poverty, blue collar (not many white collar professionals in the rural areas), distrust of outsiders (flatlanders), and probably an older population as well, etc. I’ve lived in Vermont all my life and that’s the rural Vermont I know.

    So if much of Vermont has a similar demographic profile with West Virginia, then why didn’t it vote the same? Obviously there’s more to it than demographics as there seems to be a regional distinction. Your description of Vermont’s culture is pretty accurate.

    In conclusion, claiming that West Virginia’s apparent rejection of Obama means that he can’t appeal to working class whites is false.

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