The show must will go on

It figures, doesn’t it? After 16 months of campaigning, primaries and caucuses in 43 states, a couple dozen debates, and ungodly sums of money spent on campaign ads, Pennsylvania was poised to make a real difference. A landslide win by Hillary Clinton (as predicted by initial polls in March) might have fundamentally reshaped the race. A narrow win by Hillary Clinton (as predicted by early exit polls released last night) would have made it difficult for Clinton to continue.

So, what happens? She wins by 9.4% — a number Clinton supporters round up to call it a double-digit win, and Obama supporters round down for the opposite reason. Clinton’s victory was decisive and impressive, but the margin fits nicely into that middle ground. It’s big enough to give Clinton a boost, but not big enough to change the overall dynamics of the race. It’s big enough to keep the campaign going for quite a while, but not big enough to compel uncommitted superdelegates to get off the fence.

In other words, after six weeks of campaigning in the Keystone State, and about $40 million of investment, the Democratic Party is largely where it was a month ago.

There have been plenty of surprises in the Democratic race over the last several months, but for a change, Pennsylvania seemed to go according to plan. The conventional wisdom, oddly enough, actually got this one right.

For all the campaigning and money spent, Hillary Rodham Clinton won Pennsylvania with the same base of white women, working-class voters and white men that revived her candidacy in Ohio last month. The demography that has defined the Democratic race went largely unchanged, according to exit polls.

In other words, the constituencies that were expected to back Clinton did so, and those who were expected to back Obama did so, too. In Pennsylvania, Clinton’s constituencies are larger, so she won.

It’s maddening, but every spin seems to have an equal and opposite re-spin.

Most notably, the knock on Obama this morning seems to be that he can’t “close the deal,” or “land the knock-out punch.” He outspent Clinton by more than a 2-to-1 margin, but when the dust settled, Obama couldn’t take advantage of the opportunity to end the Democratic race once and for all.

On the other hand, the last several weeks have been brutal for Obama. After Wright, bitter-gate, and lackluster debate performance, he didn’t make gains among Clinton’s working-class white base, but he didn’t lose ground, either.

What’s more, Clinton’s path to the Democratic nomination is no clearer now than it was 24 hours ago. It’s all-but official that she won’t catch Obama among pledged delegates, and the popular-vote contest is quite likely to break Obama’s way, too. As Noam Scheiber explained last night:

[Clinton] only marginally improved her chances of winning the nomination, and they weren’t high to begin with. She barely dented Obama’s pledged delegate lead (she probably made up about 15-20 of his 165-delegate margin), and there are few indications that the superdelegates are prepared to overturn it. (Obviously, stay tuned over the next few days to see what the supers do.) That’s particularly so if Hillary can’t pass Obama in the popular vote, and she probably didn’t make up enough ground tonight to have a shot.

The bottom line is that Hillary needs an Obama meltdown to have a real path to the nomination. After all the uproar about Jeremiah Wright and bittergate, that didn’t come close to happening tonight. What did happen was that all the people who think the extended nomination fight is killing party got a lot more depressed.

So, all the talk we heard in March will continue to May, and probably longer. We’re going to hear a lot about “the math” vs. “the momentum.” “The numbers” vs. “the narrative.”

The show must will go on.

Wake me when it’s over!

  • So for the next month and a half, we get to hear the constant babbling from constituents of both sides trying to ‘psyche’ the undecideds into believing their side is winning. Also, we’ve got repugs in there trying to shift the dynamics into a mold of who they feel will lose more handily to McCain. This is wearing me out. I really, really, really hope this is over by June 3rd. Also, I don’t understand how many feel this is ‘good’ for the dems. The longer this goes on, the more devisive it becomes. AAAAAUUUGGGHH!

  • I don’t care anymore. I still don’t think Clinton can win the general, but whatever.

  • I want to re-post what I just put at the tail of last night’s open thread. It properly belongs here (I’m not fully awake yet).

    Steve (#38) – “… while she’s been throwing the kitchen sink at Obama, he hasn’t really thrown much back at her….”

    There is another thing which hasn’t been mentioned directly, but which must be understood, however painful. If Obama were white, going tit-for-tat (i.e., throwing the kitchen sink back at her) would be expected. Imagine, say, John Edwards or Chris Dodd going against Hillary at this point. All’s fair, etc. But as the black late-night host on San Francisco’s KGO radio put it recently, in racist America it would simply be suicide, in the minds of most voters, for a black man to “sass” a white woman. “Sass” means not being properly deferential, not throwing that kitchen sink.

    Were Obama white he could bring up all that baggage that Hillary keeps saying she’s overcome. It wouldn’t be pretty. I don’t think she has overcome it in the minds of most Americans. She’s just put it behind her, and Obama can’t bring it back into the national spotlight the way the Republicans surely will if she’s our nominee this Fall.

    Given that Obama is fighting with one arm tied behind his back, it’s good he has achieved what now looks to be an unbeatable edge in delegates. But let’s not kid ourselves: as much as our mostly subterranean racism has been an obstacle within our party, it isn’t anything compared to what we’ll be up against when we take on the party of Nixon’s “southern strategy” and Grampy McCain.

  • Ed (3): it isn’t anything compared to what we’ll be up against when we take on the party of Nixon’s “southern strategy” and Grampy McCain.

    Good point. I’m surprised though that people saw the Tiger Woods mention last week as racist, but apparently not so much with the ad about Chicago gangs.

  • Let’s hear it for the only real winner last night! Thats right MSM. They get to talk the talk til the end and make up more ridiculous gate headlines a.k.a Bosniagate, bittergate, Wrightgate, Obamamagate.

    Personally I wish it was football season already

  • Like Rick (post #3) said, I don’t care anymore. I have succombed to primary fatigue, which is actually disappointing considering my high interest level a few months ago. I still hold out (a fading) hope that both of them will focus their campaigns on attacking McCain and Republicans – that might get me interested again.

  • I can’t figure why Obama supporters keep saying that Hillary didn’t close the popular vote enough to catch Obama. Personally I think 225,000 from his lead of 697,000 equals about 1/3rd of his lead. If Hillary keeps it close in NC and wins Ind by 10%, WV, KY and closes the gap on popular vote she may well win the popular vote. Then what we all complained when Gore won the popular vote and the election was stole from him. So if Hillary were to win the popular vote and Obama was given the nomination then we democrats would be no different than the rethugs.

  • Cue up George Will wearily telling us that this is illustrative (and I bet he uses that word) of the Democratic urge to include everyone producing no forward motion, and that if you like how the Democrats pick their nominee, you’ll love how they’ll run the country.

    Ugh.

  • Ed (#4) –
    I don’t think that Obama will have to go negative in order to win. The politics of change are slow – it will take some time for him to overcome the inherent racism that’s woven deep into the fabric of America. HOWEVER, he has overcome huge odds to become the presumptive nominee. Regardless of how he handled the run up to yesterday’s primary, he would have lost, because of the makeup of voters in Pennsylvania. I think he actually narrowed his losses by not being as negative. In my opinion, he’s really trying NOT to hit at Hilary too hard in case she’s the nominee. The party must win in November. In any case though, I think he needs to make a more aggressive case for himself and against McCain.

  • Rush Limbaugh is the big winner. He will take credit for things and his ratings will go up as people who might listen will think he is the one who gave Clinton the victory.

    Of course, Rush couldn’t even get the Republicans to vote the way he wanted. So it doesn’t change the fact that he is an entertainer with no more real power than Ed Begley

  • I’m not sure anyone thinks Obama can’t “sass” anyone–white woman or not. I don’t think Obama thinks that. This ain’t Ole Miss circa 1890 or anything.

    I think Clinton’s turning the “yes, we can” line into “yes, we will” shows she missed something important in the energy behind Obama. Clinton seems to be saying, “you ever thought we couldn’t change things? Ha! How unAmerican!” But, for many of the young, or poor, or minority, or just plain disinterested people who react so strongly to Obama, I think the “yes, we can” line really did mean “yes, we are able to now, and we weren’t confident before because we felt left behind or ignored or powerless.” Those voters are NOT going to vote for John “get a third job” McCain, nor will Clinton’s “I always felt powerful” meme sway them.

    In many ways, the disempowered are the missing segment that will carry in November.

  • Did anyone who was paying attention and is remotely honest think we wouldn’t end up today exactly where we were yesterday?

    Of course she won Pennsylvania. Of course that won’t save her candidacy. Of course she won’t admit that, and is furiously pretending that now she’s got mo. And if she’d lost by two points, she’d be spinning that as a reason to stay in. The Democrats’ own Black Knight from Monty Python’s Holy Grail isn’t going to leave under her own initiative.

    I’ve been saying that the primaries need to play out and the superdelegates need to come together after June 3 to shut this down. But if she’s only going to gleefully step up her scorched-earth, I-win-or-you-all-go-down-with-me campaign, I really don’t think we can afford to wait that long for Senator Reality is What I Say It Is to be shown the door. As Ed Stephan (4) and so many others have noted, the stuff the GOP throws at us isn’t going to be pretty. That’s why we should be out there fighting it now, not wasting any more time, energy and resources on battling the also-ran who’s stayed way past her welcome.

  • This doesn’t stop at nine innings, it stops when the vendors run out of peanuts. No, wait, when the last fan leaves the stands. No, wait, when someone knocks the cover off the ball. No, wait, when the grass in the outfield grows 2 feet high. No, wait, when the umpires retire. No, wait… we can win this thing. Forget the score, we just got a man on base — we’re winning!

  • As of now I’m tuning it all out. Wake me in November, but don’t bother if McSame wins, which I think he will given how determined the dim-Dems are to lose the presidency. What’s going on now is beyond embarassing: it’s disgraceful.

  • Matt Yglesias just posted this on superdelegates:

    “At this point, we know what we need to know. We know the policy differences between the candidates, we know the “freak show” issues surrounding the candidates, we know the basic shape of each candidate’s core electoral coalition, and we know that in the end Obama will have a modest but real lead in elected delegates. Everyone should declare.”
    http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/04/good_for_henry.php

    I agree.

    Pocketnines just posted this on the popular vote at Daily Kos. I agree wiht this also.
    Point Number 1: If the popular vote determined the nominee, no candidate would ever go to Iowa or New Hampshire. They’d spend all their time in big urban areas all over the country from the outset of the campaign, racking up raw numbers. What would be the point of even visiting New Hampshire if you could camp out in Brooklyn? Concrete Example: Barack Obama would not have spent only a day and a half in California before the Feb 5 primary. He would have never gone to Idaho. Duh.

    Point Number 2: If the popular vote determined the nominee, no state in its right mind would ever hold a caucus, instantly disenfranchising itself. Concrete example: Minnesota-Missouri. Minnesota gets credit for 214K votes, and Missouri gets 822K votes, but they each get 72 delegates. Is Missouri’s voice 4 times more important than Minnesota’s?

    Point Number 3: The arbitrary distinction between who gets to vote in these primaries is nothing like the general election, where everyone registered gets to vote. In the primaries, sometimes it’s just Dems, sometimes Dems and Indies, sometimes anyone. Concrete example: Texas gets a million more votes than similar overall population New York (2.8M to 1.8M), even though New York is far more Democratic, simply due to this arbitrary restriction on who can vote (NY = closed, Texas = open).

    Overall point: regardless of the fact that Obama will win the popular vote, it is completely illegitimate in this race. THIS IS NOT LIKE POPULAR VOTE IN THE GENERAL ELECTION.
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/4/23/01152/2705/129/501246

  • 1) Some argue that Obama wasted all that money in PA. I disagree. He closed her margin from over 20% to under 10%. He introduced himself to the people in PA which will only help him in the general. And apparently he made some inroads with the older generation and women in new support.

    2) Clinton’s new BFF Scaife is now promoting anti-Obama ads. So much for his “redemption”. Oh, I forgot, that’s only in Clinton’s mind. Yet more proof that she would rather bring the party down than admit defeat.

    3) It’s hard for we political junkies to understand how those who don’t follow the news or only listen to Pills Limbaugh, FAUX, etc. have no clue about what’s really going on. I’m not sure how to fix that.

    4) Not to take anything away from Clinton, but I’m sure part of her votes were secured by her last name (what would’ve happened if she’d run as Hillary Rodham?) and by bigotry against “the black guy”.

    5) I can’t stand watching the idiots on tv, so can anyone tell me if Clinton’s threat of nuclear obliteration of Iran has been covered much? Or that three of her advisors have said, Oh, she didn’t really mean it, just hours later? This is seriously important for the public to hear. Would she really nuke Iran? She sounds like McSame.

  • Look at this.

    Scroll down to the “Vote for President in November.” Notice anything fishy? I do: 3% of the people who voted in the primary voted for Clinton and said that given the choice between Clinton and McCain, they’d vote for McCain in the General (30% of the 10% choosing McCain over Clinton). That’s a substantial portion of Clinton’s win margin (1/3) and makes a big difference in the petty argument about “double digit victories”…

    Neil W (12) is damn right. Rush is laughing his ass off right now.

  • Nice analysis Mr. Carpetbagger. I agree with just about all your points. Except these two:

    The show must will go on.

    The show will go on, but at some point fatigue must set in. I’ve got zero desire to hear Hillary or see her picture. And I am getting increasing closer to feeling that way about Barack. There is only so much over-exposure the public can take. These people have lost their “prettiness.” Unless a sex scandal breaks atop this train wreck… great gobs of people are going to stop clicking the links that have driven this madness into May.

    $40 million of investment, the Democratic Party is largely where it was a month ago.

    If he outspent her 2 to 1 then that’s about 26 million to 13 million.
    The bad news is that a lot of her 13 million went to tearing him down republican doggy-style.
    That’s a net loss for the Democratic Party. The good news… in the underlying game of poker he forced her to spend far more than she could afford. That 10% victory was costly. Given the fatiguing factor I mentioned up above, less money will flow for both candidates. This will become a particularly painful reality for her after North Carolina.

  • What this post, and comment thread, prove is that neither you nor the pundits KNOW the Democratic party! Clearly DEMOCRATS don’t want this to end. It’s DEMOCRATS, and mostly Democratic women who make up a large precentage of the Dem voters, are not ready for this contest to be over. And why? Because we are not convinced that Obama could win in a general election.

    He can’t close the deal, because he has not won us over.

    When the going gets tough for Obama, he folds like a cheap suit. When the going gets tough for Clinton, she digs in and works HARDER. Voters LIKE that. And many know that is exactly what we are going to need to win in Nov against John McCain.

    Clinton has CONSISTENTLY done well with the Democratic base. This is the group that can be counted on to turn out in Nov and vote. And Obama has so pissed off women it’s unclear now that he would get our support if he does end up being the nominee.

    The reality is that NEITHER candidate will get enough pledged delegates to win outright. And the reality is that the longer the contest continues, the more doubt voters have about Sen. Obama’s ability to defeat John McCain.

    When Sen. Obama makes rookie mistakes like saying McCain would be a better president than George W. Bush that counters the work of the Democratic party to tie McCain to Bush. And how does Obama KNOW McCain would be better than Bush? Hell, I never thought a president could be worse than Ronald Reagan, but George W. Bush has proven me wrong.

    And finally, Steve … people talk about momentum because that is what Clinton has. And people are saying Obama can’t close the deal, because even outspending her 3 to 1 — and having the full backing of MSM pundits like, well EVERYONE at MSNBC (except maybe Rachael Maddow who supports him, but tries to be fair in her reporting) — Obama still has not been able to close the deal! And like it or not, that says a lot.

    BAC

  • Hannah your reasoning in no.4 is so screwed up Hillary won 56% of the white vote and Barrack won 90% of the black vote so which group is racist?

  • Democracy ain’t pretty people, but it’s good for the judicious soul. I don’t really care for Clintonian campaigning, but if Obama is to move forward successfully he will have to vigilantly overcome such viciousness. We are, after all, members of a nation that went by a one-drop rule for a couple hunderd years. -Kevo

  • eadie said:
    I’m not sure anyone thinks Obama can’t “sass” anyone–white woman or not. I don’t think Obama thinks that. This ain’t Ole Miss circa 1890 or anything.

    Are you sure?

    A large portion of Clinton’s winning margin in Pennsylvania was working-class white men. These are people whose union was busted under Reagan, whose job was shipped overseas under Clinton costing them their health care and pensions, and whose son was killed in Iraq because of Bush’s war that Clinton didn’t oppose until it was safe to do so. And yet they will vote for McCain or Clinton because a black man isn’t “patriotic” enough.

  • I can’t stand watching the idiots on tv, so can anyone tell me if Clinton’s threat of nuclear obliteration of Iran has been covered much? Or that three of her advisors have said, Oh, she didn’t really mean it, just hours later? This is seriously important for the public to hear.

    Given that she said something similar, minus the “complete obliteration” part, at the debate last week, it seems this wasn’t an accident; this is Operation Sinking Ship’s idea of a great talking point. Every time you think she’s just horribly muffed it in an off-guard moment, you find out the unforgivable thing she’s just said is their idea of a fucking strategy. How did we ever think these people were politically astute?

    I’m sure that Mary, who tried so hard to convince us that the 3 a.m. ad was about motherly caring and only our male-centric love of war made us think otherwise, will be along shortly to explain why threats of extraconstitutionally blowing Iran to smithereens are a) in line with the progressive platform and values and b) indicative of Clinton’s transformative femininity.

  • So they’re off to Indiana and North Carolina, two states where basketball is more important that guns or religion.

    I can’t wait to hear the corporate-controlled media give us a week of stories about how Clinton isn’t really a regular person because she’s lousy at basketball.

  • When the going gets tough for Obama, he folds like a cheap suit.

    Yes, you guys keep saying that in the Bush administration style of “If I repeat nonsense long enough, it might become true.” And yet Obama has taken the tough going and calmly and intelligently responded to it, even turning an immensely challenging political moment into arguably the most important speech in 40 years. And the polls have borne out how effective his measured responses to every challenge have been.

    He’s won in pledged delegates, states won and popular vote and he will be the nominee. Just where has the “folding” come in?

  • BAC,

    I respect your position as a Hillary supporter — but you keep saying Obama has not been able to ‘close the deal.’ Last I checked, Hillary hasn’t either.

    Has Obama made some ‘rookie’ mistakes? Sure. But has he outright lied and manipulated the truth of his experience? Only one of them has so far.

    Has he gone negative in this campagin? Only to defend himself. Alternatively Hillary has treated Obama like he was her November opponent from day 1.

    And I’m sorry, you cannot count “First Lady” as experience in running a country.

  • “He can’t close the deal” (BAC, 23)

    Neither can she. In fact, he did close an impossible six-weeks-ago lead of 22%. In fact, he’s ahead of her nationally and will continue to be. The fact that neither of them can “close the deal” (what an awful expression) simply follows from the fact that either of them would make an outstanding nominee. It should be hard to choose (i.e., close the deal?) when your choices are both good.

    The fact that TeeVee can’t go any deeper than the ascribed characteristics of gender and race, that TeeVee needs a slapdown match to keep everyone’s attention up for their ads, that TeeVee thrives on tabloid “journalism” put up by amateurs on YouTube … all this only adds to our inability to bring it rapidly to a close. But, believe me, even if all we had were well-thought-out newspaper essays and books to read, it would still be an impossible choice: first woman president or first black president.

  • Personally I wish it was football season already -Manny from Miami

    Miami…a Dolphins fan? Hah. Yeah, maybe they’ll win two games this year. Good luck.

    Go Colts.

  • beep52 said: “This doesn’t stop at nine innings, it stops when the vendors run out of peanuts. No, wait, when the last fan leaves the stands. No, wait, when someone knocks the cover off the ball. No, wait, when the grass in the outfield grows 2 feet high. No, wait, when the umpires retire. No, wait… we can win this thing. Forget the score, we just got a man on base — we’re winning!”

    Can we stop when Americans all have had a chance to vote?

    Or, having voted yourself, do you think no one else should count?

    Having voted myself, I’m perfectly willing to let the American Citizens in Puerto Rico vote. It might remind us on the continent that we have territories that are actually part of the country.

    Democracy and the Democratic Party aren’t going to end if everybody gets a chance to participate.

  • Tom said: “And I’m sorry, you cannot count “First Lady” as experience in running a country.”

    Totally right. That’s why I only count Senatorial experience and achievements.

  • If Hillary keeps it close in NC and wins Ind by 10%, WV, KY and closes the gap on popular vote she may well win the popular vote. -Comeback Bill

    If ifs and buts were blah blah blah. There are no Pennsylvanias left. She won’t win the popular vote no matter who’s math you use.

  • Can we stop when Americans all have had a chance to vote? -Lance

    The negatives far outweigh the positives in this scenario and you’re being obtuse if you chose not to see that. We all know full well that a say in the primary is not a guaranteed right. Plus, where was this indignation in previous primaries? It’s all just bullshit because you think it helps Clinton, but really it just hurts our chances in November.

    If for no other reason, let’s end it now and stop wasting assloads of money running against Democrats. Let’s run against McSame.

    If the Clintonistas have their way, McSame will glide into the White House this year and their chosen one will have her chance again in 2012 running as the ‘I told you so’ candidate.

  • On April 23rd, 2008 at 9:18 am, BAC said: “..And Obama has so pissed off women it’s unclear now that he would get our support if he does end up being the nominee.”

    Sorry to disabuse you of this notion, but Clinton has pissed off plenty of women since the supers with her tactics and I believe is losing support.

    “When Sen. Obama makes rookie mistakes like saying McCain would be a better president than George W. Bush that counters the work of the Democratic party to tie McCain to Bush.”

    Uh, didn’t Clinton do that first (clue:CinC argument)

    “And finally, Steve … people talk about momentum because that is what Clinton has”

    Since when is momentum going from being 20-25% ahead to less than 10%? I find that curious…

  • Funny how everyone thinks their candidate is ganged up on by the MSM. I am an Obama supporter and I did not think the MSNBC crowd supported him much at all, much less all of ’em. I actually moved David Gregory from “somewhat ok” to “big corporate media whore” based on his performance last night.

    And as a Steelers fan I love seeing someone from Ohio lash out at my team–only years of domination can inspire such dedicated hatred.

  • Obama didn’t lose to McCain in Pennsylvania, he lost to a very famous woman liberal in Pennsylvania.

    I don’t think Clinton would quit even if the superdelegates declared for Obama in the majority. She’d just think she could twist their arms win them over.

    The show must go on and on and on.

    PS I just wrote that Obama was the color of an orange.

  • NickC said:
    Funny how everyone thinks their candidate is ganged up on by the MSM. I am an Obama supporter and I did not think the MSNBC crowd supported him much at all, much less all of ‘em. I actually moved David Gregory from “somewhat ok” to “big corporate media whore” based on his performance last night.

    But Rachel Madow rocks!

  • Watching Huckabee right now on MSNBC and he had it exactly right..”the real winner last night was John McCain”….not crazy about all is view, but he sure got this one nailed.

  • For those who claim that Obama “can’t close the deal”, in fact, Obama closed the deal when he won in Wisconsin. Since, then his lead in elected delegates (and yes, popular vote) is insurmountable and has been for months. Hillary’s victory last night, way shy of what she needed, won’t change a thing. He already won too many states by margins that were way too large for her to overcome.

    Obama is our nominee.

  • Obama didn’t lose to McCain in Pennsylvania, he lost to a very famous woman liberal in Pennsylvania. -Dale

    Every dollar spent by Obama or Clinton against the other Democrat is a win for McCain, especially in a race that’s realistically been over for weeks. Clinton is a cancer on the Democratic Party. Her pals in the media, Scaife and Murdoch know it. She is their ticket to profit which is why they love her so much.

  • Obama closed the deal when he won in Wisconsin. Since, then his lead in elected delegates (and yes, popular vote) is insurmountable and has been for months.

    Could someone please explain the purpose of the super delegates? If, in fact, they are supposed to simply go along with whatever the elected delegate result is, why does the Party even have them? If, on the other hand, they exist be the deciding factor in a primary race where neither candidate can achieve a victory via the elected delegates, than why, with Obama only ahead by only 151 elected delegates, should Clinton drop out of the race?

  • Congratulations to Clinton for winning Pennsylvania. We tried to beat ou, but we didn’t.

    Could someone please explain the purpose of the super delegates? If, in fact, they are supposed to simply go along with whatever the elected delegate result is, why does the Party even have them? — orogeny
    They were created after voters nominated a string of terrible candidates (McGovern, Carter, Mondale) so that the party leaders could override what the people said if they ever needed to.

    If, on the other hand, they exist be the deciding factor in a primary race where neither candidate can achieve a victory via the elected delegates
    If they did not exist, there would currently be no way for Clinton to win.

    than why, with Obama only ahead by only 151 elected delegates, should Clinton drop out of the race?
    a) for someone who painted herself as inevitable, Clinton is behind
    b) in fact, she’s been behind at every day of the primary, except for March 4 and yesterday
    c) instead of building herself up, she’s tearing Obama down
    d) if after a such a passionate primary, where we manage to take down even the Clinton machine, we won’t be very happy if all that was just overridden because the DLC insiders feel like we made the wrong choice

  • You didn’t answer my question: Why does the Democratic Party have super delegates? If they exist to act as the deciding factor in an election where neither candidate can achieve a winning margin, 2025 out of 4049 total delegates, then the race is far from decided.

    You seem to be saying that because Obama has maintained a minuscule (151 out of 3329 delegates chosen to date) lead in elected delegates, Clinton should simply give up. Or that since you “won’t be very happy” if your candidate loses the super delegate part of the primary, we should all just throw our hands up and give Obama the no9mination.

  • #24 I was merely wondering how many people voted for against Obama because he is black.

    Why do blacks for for Obama? Interesting question that I don’t know the answer to. But I don’t find it surprising.

    BAC: I’m a woman (white, age 55) and am po’ed at Hillary. She has sold her soul to the devil in order to win. I was favoring Obama, but thought Hillary would be fine and was happy to support her were she the nominee. Then she started with the CinC test garbage and this has gone on and on. #37 locanicole is right on the mark. I would have an extremely hard time supporting her now because she has damaged the Democratic party.

    I’m sick of this primary season (mostly because of the negativity, not the race) and our primary is upcoming so this year my vote will be worth something this time. But if the race were over and Obama the nominee (as he will be) that would be fine with me. Because this mess is benefiting McSame. (That’s for you, Lance.)

  • BTW, “They were created after voters nominated a string of terrible candidates (McGovern, Carter, Mondale) so that the party leaders could override what the people said if they ever needed to.” Doesn’t answer the question…each of those candidates had substantial support in the primary…more than Obama has at this point. Every metric that you apply to Obama–elected delegates, popular vote, enthusiastic supporters–could be applied to them as well. The Carter/Kennedy race was just as bitter as this one and went all the way to the convention.

    When the super delegate system was created, Jim Hunt, the chair of the commission stated: “We must also give our convention more flexibility to respond to changing circumstances and, in cases where the voters’ mandate is less than clear, to make a reasoned choice.”

    Seems to fit this situation perfectly.

  • Me at #47: correct to read “I would have an extremely hard time supporting her now IN PART because she has damaged the Democratic party.” I also don’t trust her new “redemptive” relationship with Scaife, her refusal to dump Penn (he isn’t completely gone from what I understand), her lying about events and positions, her close relationships to the powerful Washington in crowd.

    Anyone see Boston Legal last night? Alan Shore got to argue in front of the Supreme Court. I have no idea if one is allowed to “go off” on them like that but it sure was fun to watch.

  • Why does the Democratic Party have super delegates? -orogeny

    I think Nautilator did answer your question. They exist to give the party final say. The party is unwilling to relinquish all control to the voters. It’s arrogant and, as this primary exemplifies, counter-productive.

    A better question is what would be the consequences of going against the winner of the majority of delegates chosen by voters?

    If the system went by a majority of elected delegates, then Obama has already won. The size of the lead is irrelevant when it’s insurmountable (Although I would argue a lead of 151 is hardly “minuscule.” It is more delegates than most states have.)

    Oh, if only the tables were turned. I’d love to hear the Clintonistas arguing for Obama to drop out because of Clinton’s insurmountable lead. Funny thing, though. I’d agree with you.

  • Obama’s lead is 151 (at this point… it could be less in the future) and there are almost 400 uncommitted super delegates left. Once he locks up enough of them to win, that is the time for Clinton to drop out. Until then, it is still a horse race. That is the way the system is set up and those are the rules that we must live by. I don’t like them, I would much prefer winner-take-all primaries and the elimination of the caucus silliness that some states still use. But, until the system is changed, the rules are the rules.

  • A better question is what would be the consequences of going against the winner of the majority of delegates chosen by voters?

    Since Obama lead in the popular votes by less than 2%, and is losing if MI and FL are counted, I really doubt that that will be a big factor in the general election, it depends on whether the Obama supporters are actually Democrats or are simply Obama followers. If Obama pulls enough SDs to win, I’ll be voting for him in the general. I wonder, though, how many of Obama’s supporters would really do the same if Clinton pulls it off.

  • “Since Obama lead in the popular votes by less than 2%, and is losing if MI and FL are counted”

    My English seems to be slipping way…

    Should have been: “Since Obama is leading in the popular vote by less and 2% and is losing there is MI and FL are counted”

  • You can count me as another woman who is pissed at Hillary and turns the channel when she comes on teevee.

    Earlier on I *was* a Clinton supporter. Then she did a number of things that really turned me off and proved to me that she doesn’t fundamentally “get it.” So I took a much harder look at Obama and ended up really liking what I saw. He represents true change, Hillary represents nothing more than the Dems’ old boy’s network. I’m sick of both of the Clintons who seem willing to do anything to get back into the White House.

    The earliest Obama supporter I know is my 60-year old, 2nd wave feminist mother. There are many others like her who don’t see Clinton’s run as fulfilling a promise of women’s equality since she’s where she is mostly because of nepotism. She’d love to see a woman in the WH but won’t vote for someone just because she’s has a uterus.

    The only way I could possibly imagine supporting Hillary in the fall is *IF* she gets the nomination fair and square– because Obama truly stumbles. If she does it via superdelegate coup then I might have to show up at the polls blind drunk in November so that I won’t remember voting for her.

  • My English seems to be slipping way… -orogeny

    It’s not the only subject you seem to be having trouble with. Please, stop talking about the popular vote. You know it excludes caucuses, so it’s not a complete measure. What counts are delegates, and she cannot go into the convention with more delegates than Obama.

    It doesn’t matter if his lead is 20% or 2% or .002%. It’s a lead granted to him by the votes of the people. Overturn it at the party’s peril.

    And drop Florida and Michigan. Reality based discussion only. They will not be seated until a single candidate is left standing. Harold Ickes, one of Hillary’s staff, saw to that. So stop blaming Dean and Obama. It was the rules committee and the state legislatures that caused their problems.

    I think you vastly underestimate what the consequences would be if someone goes into the convention leading in elected delegates but is not selected by the supers. Typical Democrat: you’re addicted to losing.

    It has nothing to do with being an “Obama follower” as you suggest. It has to do with arrogance. The party should listen to the people. If they don’t, then why should they expect the people to turn out for them in November? If you can’t understand that this is bigger than your petty indifference to Obama’s lead then I don’t know what to tell you.

    Ultimately, if the supers are just going to do what they want any way with no heed to the elected delegates, then honestly, what the hell are we wasting all of this time and money for?

  • Since Obama is leading in the popular vote by less and 2% and is losing there is MI and FL are counted

    FYI — MI and FL are not counted. Hillary said so when she signed this pledge (pdf):

    “I, [Hillary Clinton], pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any state which schedules any presidential election primary or caucus before February 5, 2008, except for the state of Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina…”

    When she had the option of removing her name from the Michigan ballot, and chose not to do so (unlike every other Democratic candidate), she broke this pledge (candidates did not have the option of removing their names from the Florida ballot).

    Clinton is a liar, and anybody who falls for this Michigan/Florida stuff is a sucker.

  • Sorry, BAC, @23, but it’s Hillary who’s pissing women off, not Obama. I’m a 58yr old female who, within 4 months, went from “I’d be perfectly happy with either of them”, to “can’t stand her”. Won’t even send money to DNC or Emily’s List because, God forfend, some of it might find its way to her. And it’s happening to almost all women of my acquaintance, including one in New Jersey whose additional motivation had been sharing the “fellow college alumna” status with Clinton.

  • Obama’s lead is 151 (at this point… it could be less in the future)

    You’re right. It could be less in the future. But it probably won’t be. Obama should be able to make up his entire PA deficit in NC, and is likely to win or lose just a few in IN. From there on, the states look to be pretty much a push (OR vs. KY for instance), so it seems unlikely that his final pledged delegate margin will drop much below 150.

  • “It’s not the only subject you seem to be having trouble with. ”

    You’ve just got to get a personal attack in there, huh? It seems to be impossible to debate issues with some Obama supporters without the discussion going there.

    On the issue of the popular vote, I was making the point that in a 51/49 election the number of people who are sufficiently angered by the final result to either not vote or vote Repub is probably not that significant. Once people understand the rules, the reasonable ones will accept the nominee. If the nominee is Obama, I’m good with that. If it’s Clinton, the same is true.

    In addition, while the Florida and Michigan votes will probably not be counted in the primary, they are still votes for Clinton. They represent over a million people who felt strongly enough about making her the nominee that they came out and voted even though they knew their votes probably wouldn’t count. They voted to make a statement about who they thought should be the nominee. The true arrogance is shown by those who want to declare that statement to be irrelevant in the super delegates’ decision making process.

  • In addition, while the Florida and Michigan votes will probably not be counted in the primary, they are still votes for Clinton. They represent over a million people who felt strongly enough about making her the nominee that they came out and voted even though they knew their votes probably wouldn’t count. They voted to make a statement about who they thought should be the nominee. The true arrogance is shown by those who want to declare that statement to be irrelevant in the super delegates’ decision making process.

    True arrogance is to make a pledge, break the pledge to the disadvantage of others who honored the pledge, and hope nobody will notice that you’re a fucking cheater.

    Do the ends justify the means? The answer to that question is supposed to be no. Unfortunately, with all her education from the most elite institutions, Hillary didn’t learn that lesson. Or maybe she did, but forgot. That happens when you join forces with the likes of Richard Mellon Scaife and associates.

  • You’ve just got to get a personal attack in there, huh? It seems to be impossible to debate issues with some Obama supporters without the discussion going there. -orogeny

    Just because I’m a dick and an Obama supporter doesn’t mean the former is the result of the later. My attitude has nothing to do with who I support. You’d be more accurate to say ‘It seems to be impossible to debate issues with some people (that means me) without the discussion going there.’

    You’d be far more accurate to say ‘It seems to be impossible to debate issues with some people because I (that means you) choose to talk about nonexistent popular vote and an unrealistic expectations for Florida and Michigan which clearly aren’t issues, but are instead bullshit Clinton talking points which she uses to further advance the idea that she has a chance in hell of securing the nomination.’

    You want to talk about an issue? Fine, pick one. You want to spout Clinton’s talking points about it being close when close doesn’t matter or close when you count this and that or the other that won’t count, blah, blah, blah, then you’ll only draw my ire. I apologize, but I have no patience for having the same argument we’ve had since January or for people who think Florida’s and Michigan’s primary have any sort of legitimacy. Yawn.

  • “Just because I’m a dick and an Obama supporter doesn’t mean the former is the result of the later.” You’re right, but it seem like an awful lot of the latter are the former as well…Obama seems to attract them.

    First, nowhere have I said that the FL and MI delegates should be seated at the convention. The rules are the rules and those delegates are out. What I said was that the preference shown by the million plus voters who came out to vote, even though they knew that their vote was only symbolic, should be taken into consideration by the super delegates when they are deciding who to vote for.

    Second, it is not a “bullshit Clinton talking point” to cite the fact that the purpose of the super delegates, the reason for which they were established, is to make the final decision in a primary where the “the voters’ mandate is less than clear,” which I think is a pretty good description of a 51/49 primary where neither candidate has gotten sufficient delegates to lock up the nomination. My gosh, Carter/Kennedy fought it out at the convention, and that was a 65/35 race!

  • Fourth woman who now hates Hillary. Good god, I’m in her BASE (killin’ her doodz) – college-educated, white, middle-class, pro-choice, progressive – and I absolutely despise her. Samantha Power had it right on. She is a monster. She has lied about so much – experience, votes, questionable and criminal activity – that she may as well be a Rethug for all I care. Hell, she goes to their sick little Bible group meetings; she’s already part of the cabal. If she turns out to be the Dem nominee I will hold my nose, campaign for the Dems, and vote for her, but only because McCain would be another mistake on par with Bush.

  • You’re right, but it seem like an awful lot of the latter are the former as well…Obama seems to attract them. -orogeny

    Ha, again, don’t attribute my attitude to the candidate. I could just as easily say that Clinton attracts idiots. The exit polls actually support that argument, too. But I’m not going to lay my concerns with any single specific supporter at the feet of the candidate.

    First, nowhere have I said that the FL and MI delegates should be seated at the convention. -orogeny

    I merely stated a comment or two ago that they won’t be seated. I never accused you of saying it. What you did say is that you think it’s significant to include them in the popular vote total. Aside from thinking the popular vote total is bunk (since not all contests are primaries), I also think it’s absurd to include FL and MI because they were flawed. Hell, Obama wasn’t even on the ballot in MI. How in the world do you accept that as fair and democratic? How do you accept a metric including flawed contests but excluding legitimate ones? I can’t wrap my brain around that. Dissonance abounds.

    Second, it is not a “bullshit Clinton talking point” to cite the fact that the purpose of the super delegates..[blah, blah, blah] -orogeny

    I say you’re wrong and it is one of her bullshit talking points. Only Clinton and her minions are spouting this. Carter/Kennedy is irrelevant. This is a far different race in the age of the internet. Everyone will know that Obama went into the convention in the lead and the party leaders felt they knew better than the people and overturned it. You’re blind if you don’t think that would cause a devastating backlash.

    Hell, McCain will use it as a talking point. He’ll court every disgruntled Democrat with the mantra “The Democrat Party doesn’t care what you think,” and you’re a fool if you don’t think a significant percentage of the people will agree.

    …where the “the voters’ mandate is less than clear… -orogeny

    See, this is the problem. That is the very bullshit talking point that frustrates me and other Obama supporters. The mandate is not ‘less than clear.’ He has and will have at the convention more elected delegates. How can having the majority of a finite group ever be ‘less than clear?’ It’s only less than clear because the person you want to win isn’t. If the shoe were on the other foot, you’d be hollerin’ for Obama to drop out.

    Clinton is all for letting the people be heard…and then overturning what they say. I think you fail to understand the impact that would have.

    If Obama pulls enough SDs to win, I’ll be voting for him in the general. I wonder, though, how many of Obama’s supporters would really do the same if Clinton pulls it off. -orogeny

    That’s because a superdelegate coup would be seen as ignoring the will of the people. That has a tendency to be a real demotivator. Obama will have the luxury of going into the convention ahead, so no such coup is necessary.

    Actually, I’ve figured it out. It’s not supporting Obama that makes me a dick. It’s the past several months of arguing with willfully blind and woefully stupid.

  • I say you’re wrong and it is one of her bullshit talking points.

    You might try reading a little history. You could start with Harvard’s Belfer Center’s History of the Super-Delegates. Governor Jim Hunt, the chair of the commission that restructured the primary rules specifically stated that the purpose of the super-delegates was to “give our convention more flexibility to respond to changing circumstances and, in cases where the voters’ mandate is less than clear, to make a reasoned choice.” If it’s a “bullshit talking point,” it is one that has been around since about 1980 or so.

  • “willfully blind and woefully stupid”

    It must be wonderful to be so superior to all the little minds who dare to disagree with you.

  • Jo- Regarding #56– where did you find that pledge? That should be THE talking point whenever one of her people says that Michigan and Florida should count because she “won” them. Where did you first come across it? Olberman et. al. should be talking about it.

    Such rank hypocrisy.

  • Lets remember that Hillary needed a 10 percent lead to *stay* in the campaign. She got 9.4 percent.

    Her “popular” lead over Obama now only exists if you count votes from Florida (which the DNC is not accepting delegates from) and from Michigan (which Hillary herself agreed would not count in the election this year!) Obama wasn’t even on the ballot in Michigan. If he had been, chances are he would have put a sizable dent in her cache of popular votes.

    Howard Dean needs to grow a pair and put Hillary in time-out.

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