The Starr standard

Seven years ago, Ken Starr prepared a lurid report for Congress detailing his case against Bill Clinton. At first blush, it wouldn’t appear to have any relevance to the Plame scandal affecting the Bush White House, but I was reviewing the Starr report recently and something jumped out at me.

After he laid out the “narrative” of Clinton’s alleged transgressions, Starr wrote a section he called “Grounds.” In it, Starr details what he described as “acts that may constitute grounds for an impeachment.” There were 11 in all, most of which dealt with Clinton’s grand jury testimony and remarks during a deposition in Paula Jones’ civil suit. But the last of the grounds for impeachment went a little further.

* Beginning on January 21, 1998, the President misled the American people and Congress regarding the truth of his relationship with Ms. Lewinsky. […]

The President himself spoke publicly about the matter several times in the initial days after the story broke. On January 26, the President was definitive: “I want to say one thing to the American people. I want you to listen to me. I’m going to say this again: I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky. I never told anybody to lie, not a single time. Never. These allegations are false.”

The President’s emphatic denial to the American people was false. And his statement was not an impromptu comment in the heat of a press conference. To the contrary, it was an intentional and calculated falsehood to deceive the Congress and the American people.

Remember, when Clinton made those remarks, he wasn’t under oath; he was answering a reporter’s question. For Starr, it didn’t matter. Here was a constitutional officer lying to the country, on national television, about a subject that was under a federal investigation. Starr said this was, quite literally, an impeachable offense.

With this in mind, if there was evidence that a constitutional officer in the current White House had lied to the country, on national television, about a subject that was under a federal investigation, under the Starr standard, it too would constitute an impeachable offense.

Well, it just so happens….

In particular, I’m thinking about Dick Cheney, who claimed on Meet the Press in 2003:

“I don’t know Joe Wilson. I’ve never met Joe Wilson. A question had arisen. I’d heard a report that the Iraqis had been trying to acquire uranium in Africa, Niger in particular. I get a daily brief on my own each day before I meet with the president to go through the intel. And I ask lots of question. One of the questions I asked at that particular time about this, I said, ‘What do we know about this?’ They take the question. He came back within a day or two and said, ‘This is all we know. There’s a lot we don’t know,’ end of statement. And Joe Wilson — I don’t who sent Joe Wilson. He never submitted a report that I ever saw when he came back.”

Patrick Fitzgerald’s indictment against Scooter Libby highlights just how little of what Cheney said was true. Despite his denials, Cheney requested and received a briefing on Wilson’s trip to Niger from the CIA.

Cheney also told Libby about Plame working at the CIA and may have advised Libby on how to deal with questions about Wilson during a July 12, 2003, plane trip on Air Force Two.

Am I saying that Cheney’s intentional and calculated falsehoods on Meet the Press are grounds for impeachment? No, I’m saying that they’re grounds for impeachment using Ken Starr’s standards.

Is Cheney a constitutional officer? Yes. Did he lie to the country? Yes. On national television? Yes. About a subject that was under a federal investigation at the time? Yes.

Don’t blame me; Ken Starr is the one who created the standard. I’m just wondering if it only applies to Democrats.

CB, how do you remember the wording of the Starr report seven years later?

  • how do you remember the wording of the Starr report seven years later?

    I happened to be looking through the Starr report for a non-blog project when I stumbled upon the charge. Hmm, I thought, impeachment for lying, even when not under oath. How interesting…

  • Those may have been grounds for Starr, but even the House left “lying to the media” out of the Articles. House Republicans didn’t want THAT precedent hanging over themselves, is my guess.

  • Let’s put it to the GOP now. Starr said a president can be impeached for lying, not under oath, just in talking to a reporter. Do Republicans agree or would they agree that Starr was nuts. Their choice.

  • “I don’t know Joe Wilson. I’ve never met Joe Wilson.”

    During the Gulf War, Cheney was SecDef and Wilson was Ambassador to Iraq. They never met?

  • Now I may be wrong on this, but I think that the Oath of Office is supposed to be a binding Oath 24/7/365, etc. Meaning that officials that are sworn into office are bound to tell the truth by the Oath that they take, which is considered to be constantly in effect.

    Any lawyers want to check me on this one?

  • Seems like a good day.

    Harry Reid is storming the beaches with a closed senate session and you, Mr. CB, are mining a vein of golden precedent for calling Cheney’s bluff on his B.S.

    It’s not impossible to fight these guys. But it will take wit, creativity, perseverence and knowledge of how the system works. Those qualities are available, we just have to use them. And those are fun qualities. Most of lifes issues that would require similar efforts would be seen as challenges and great satisfaction would be derived from solving or minimizing the problem.

  • Now, CB- All we need to do is preemptively collect all the Republican’s soundbites and what they had to say supporting Ken Starr back then. I bet their arguments are very full of sh*t but still worth using against them whenever they argue the exact opposite to support this criminal administration.

  • If I can get the death penalty for murder in the commission of a 711 robbery, what is an appropriate penalty for taking a country to war on doctored documents for political purposes? At least 30,000 have died in Iraq, not to mention the 2000 plus Americans. Bush should spend the rest of his life, going to every parent of every dead or injured soldier and beg for forgiveness. He now ranks in the second tier of mass murderers, just behind Saddam.

    Jim Corbett

  • Problem is, despite “lying” being something that is “wrong” and something we’d think our “leaders” should -never- do, I don’t think you have “legal” ability to “impeach” on that.. though, I’m not up on my impeachment law.. Lying isn’t a “crime” (or misdemeanor), so you can’t impeach for a “lie” unless it -is- a crime, and that’s only under oath.

    Would be nice if “lying” by an official was illegal, but hell.. holding our leaders, paid by taxpayer dollars to some kind of “standard” would be silly, right? No to mention, the courts just said it’s OK to LIE in polical ads (about your opponent) because it’s “protected under the first amendment”.. The courts just said “you have to pick a leader based on having no cerdible information, and things that would normally be classified as lible/slander don’t apply to those charged with protecting your rights and our country”..

    nice..

    While it’s offensive to be lied to by someone you have to rely on, it’s not “illegal”.. yet.. perhaps we need some “honest” politicians to make it a law? Stating that -any- elected official, or person appointed to any position by such, are -always- under oath when discussing -anything- dealing with their jobs. Riiiiiiiight, we’ll ever see THAT law..

  • Thinker, sorry to break it to you, but I believe that the “oath of office” that the constitutional officers take doesn’t include “telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.” I believe, rather, that it is the following: :-“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of (xxx) of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.” The addition of “so help me God” is BS added by nut-job religious whackos and hypocrites.

    BTW, Cheney is guilty of breaking that oath a thousand times, but that is another matter.

    Personally, the whole problem with Clinton started in the Jones deposition, when he should have simply said “I refuse to answer on the grounds of personal privacy” to any questions about his sex life and taken whatever civil penalty was awarded.

    Charlie L
    Portland, OR

  • Okay, you people have to understand that lying about an affair is FAR MORE SERIOUS than lying about national security.

    I don’t know how, it just is.

  • I am confused as to what you think is a lie. You say he lied, but you don’t actually say what Cheney said that is a lie.

    “I don’t know Joe Wilson. I’ve never met Joe Wilson.”

    Is this a lie? If so, according to what?

    “A question had arisen. I’d heard a report that the Iraqis had been trying to acquire uranium in Africa, Niger in particular. I get a daily brief on my own each day before I meet with the president to go through the intel. And I ask lots of question.”

    Is this a lie? If so, according to what?

    “One of the questions I asked at that particular time about this, I said, ‘What do we know about this?’ They take the question. He came back within a day or two and said, ‘This is all we know. There’s a lot we don’t know,’ end of statement.”

    Is this a lie? If so, according to what?

    “And Joe Wilson — I don’t [know] who sent Joe Wilson.”

    Is this a lie? If so, according to what?

    You may think the part where the indictment says Cheney told Libby that Wilson’s wife works for the CIA is evidence this is a lie, but no, it isn’t. Fitzgerald nowhere implies that Cheney thought — let alone *knew* — who sent Wilson.

    “He never submitted a report that I ever saw when he came back.”

    Wilson in fact never submitted a written report that could be seen. So literally, this is obviously true.

    However, was Cheney — to his knowledge — ever briefed on anything Wilson reported back? I’ve seen no evidence he was briefed on what Wilson reported, let alone that he *knew* that what he was being briefed on is what Wilson reported.

    Frankly, I don’t think you have anything here. But perhaps you could tell us exactly what Cheney said that is a lie, and exactly what evidence proves it was a lie, if I am wrong.

  • Two points. WJC apparently used the Newt Giingrich dodge in using the very narrow description of ‘sexual relations’. Anyone doubt me? Look up Newt’s standard for infidelity and ‘sexual relations’ and the light will turn on as to why WJC used that language. My bet is that he knew that would help put pressure on his nemesis (Newt) as the GOP put more pressure on the Lewinsky matter. I personally would love a Newt candidacy in part for this reason.

    Secondly there are a good number of GOP operatives who are dreading the thought that their quotes from the WJC impeachment will resurface. Kay Bailey Hutchinson got reamed for her blatant contortion of her original position but there are plenty more where that came from GOP impeachment manager Bob Barr’s introduction put the standard well below even the indictment level.

    They are so busted.

  • Thinker, #17..

    The problem is, his “oath” doesn’t say “anything about truth”, just to defend the Constitution.. One could probably even argue that “lying” sometimes has to be done to do that.. As in matters of National Security. Such as, if someone asks about Plame, people in the Administration would “have to lie” to protect her, and National Security, and the Constitution (prevent something from destroying our country)..

    One could aruge that “lying” is “part of the job” in some circumstances. It would seem to NOT apply in this case, but because the arguement can be made, it kind of kills the “crime to lie” bit.. that’s what “secret meetings” and the like are about.. under oath, but “hidden” so that the “truth” won’t hurt our country. It sucks, but it’s needed.

    The fact that it could be considered “conduct unbecoming” might be a leg-in, but not all that likely.. Basically, our society allows for this kind of lying.. until it’s made explicity illegal, these shit-bags get to walk. All we have is the “technicallity” of “purjury” and the like.. Cheney saying he has no “financial interest in Halliburton” is a lie, but he’s not under oath.. Saying he didn’t know Wilson is a lie (of sorts, depending on the definiton of “know”), but again, not under “oath”..

    It’s an ugly mess and a slippery-slope. That’s why people just need to plain old wake the hell up and see that these Republican leaders (all over Congress and various States) are generally BAD PEOPLE (not all, but most). They are wealthy people who ONLY want to fatten their coffers.. The lie and cheat and steal and decieve to get it. Problem is, some Dems do it too.. and now the perceptions is “politicians are scum” (and mostly correct, in my book).

    We need a full cleansing of our system before the country rips it’s self apart.

  • http://www.constitution.org/cmt/high_crimes.htm

    …or more specifically…

    “By Art. II Sec. 1 Cl. 8, the president must swear: “I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.” He is bound by this oath in all matters until he leaves office. No additional oath is needed to bind him to tell the truth in anything he says, as telling the truth is pursuant to all matters except perhaps those relating to national security. Any public statement is perjury if it is a lie, and not necessary to deceive an enemy.”

  • Cheney said he never met John Edwards and then the day after the debate the video of Cheney introducing Edwards at a dinner.

  • Again, Thinker.. From a “legal” standpoint, it matters not. None of these guys “intentionally undermined the Constitution”.. Therefore, they did not break their “oath of office”. You’ll note that nowhere in the oath is “tell the truth” mentioned.. on that -technicallity-, there’s no “crime”..

    And that’s the cruxt of the problem. If there is no “law” making it a crime, then it’s not a crime.. it’s an affront to our senses, but not a crime. It makes us mad and makes us wonder what the world has come to, but it’s not a crime.. Just like it’s not a crime for ExxonMobile to post near $40 billion in profits, keep gas prices high, AND get handouts from the Government. It’s sick and affrontive, but not “criminal” in the “legal” sense.

    While you and I agree that it “should be criminal for a public offical to lie to the public”, there is no law making it so.. and no politician (in our current system) is going to call for that law to be passed. Why? they say “it’s part of the job”, and the masses listen to that crap. That ‘crap’ is exactly why we’re in the mess we’re in now.. Lying in Washington is “business as usual” so the politicians can help corperations fleece us..

    Want to fix it? get out of the “Dem/Repub” mindset.. put in some progressives or greens or libertarians.. people who aren’t rich with connections to corperations, and who show time and again that they don’t pander to the rich, but to the MASSES who voted for them.. Get the crooks OUT of washington, but not by voting for the ones who simply “say” they want it better (Bush said that, look what that psycho-crooked-moron has done), dig deep and find the politicians (well, future ones) who NEVER do anything “wrong”.. hard to find? yeah.. but you will only find them in “middle-america” and lower.. that’s certian.. Rich folks have a different “moral compass” than “most people”.. but most people are complicant by letting them behave on their broke compass..

  • Savantster, you’re right, of course. However, on the other hand, there is no real law about what one can be impeached for, either.

    On the other hand, CB is also leaving out the fact that this “grounds” for impeachment failed miserably in the House. Of the articles of impeachment, two narrowly passed, one narrowly failed, and the fourth — “abuse of power,” which included lying to the public — failed by a ratio of 2:1.

    So even if Ken Starr thought this sort of thing is grounds for impeachment, the majority of the House, including more than a third of the Republicans, did not.

    Of course, CB still has not shown actual evidence Cheney lied, anyway …

  • Haha, listen to all the wingnuts now defending Cheney’s lies by trying to clarify what the meaning of “is” is.

    That’s too rich, cb and pudge, you guys are parody trolls for sure.

  • Savanster,

    Cleansing is a good choice of words.

    This country has been moving apart for some time. And if you look back at what has been driving them apart you realize it’s the corruption of the system by the politicians. The thing that made this country the envy of all the world is slowly dissappearing like a fleeting dream. The ideals that this country was founded on and the thing that brought everyone to this country’s shores was that every man and women would be free to live their lives as they wished. Nearly two hundred and fifty years ago we had a different kind of American living here. They were people that had fled the repressive, all powerful control of a central government. Monarchies aren’t exactly voter friendly. These people realized that the single greatest threat to their lives were the people that ruled over them. But they also realized that there has to be some form of government to provide the structure on which each society is based. The founding fathers decided that our country would be founded on individual freedom and liberty. And the government that ruled over us would be a limited government. A government that was here to protect the individuals rights. And the only power our government is supposed to have are those outlined in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Being a politician wasn’t supposed to be a lucrative career choice, like it is now. But the unfortunate fact is we’ve managed to undo almost everything that Jefferson and Washington and Franklin, Adams, Hancock, and all the rest of them worked so hard to create. And it didn’t even take 250 years. Now we’re running around doing the same thing every other great empire did. We are threatening and attacking all the countries of the world and at the same time becoming more and more poltically divided at home. For those that know history, we probably ought to be getting very nervous. We’ve allowed this great experiment to derail.

    The greatest generation wasn’t the WWII crowd, it was the Revolutionary War crowd. And the simple fact that we can no longer recognize that says all you need to know about the state of this country. We have lost our way. We have forgotten what made this country shine above all the others. In America the person was king, not the King.

    So when you say that radical changes have to be made to the political landscape, I would agree wholeheartedly. Bind them to the original purpose of our government – to protect our rights. Cleanse the system thoroughly and remove all the filth that has accumulated. Cut the federal government to a fraction of it’s size and go back to the republic for which she stands. A Constitutional Republic.

    But for those that think the Democrats are going to right this ship, there’s just too many of them in glass houses to start throwing rocks. At least not big rocks. They’ll squeeze the Reps until they can extort all kind of political concessions out of them and then most of this will blow over after a year or two. These guys are in bed together and they need each other equally all the way around. Even if they do get indicted and go to jail, Bush will only pardon them anyway. Wouldn’t be the first time…..remember Iran-Contra. The CIA running drugs through Mena, Presidents getting hummers in the Oval Office, Shock and Awe in impotent third world countries. And all the while lying as they go. But I guess it makes for juicy, political suspense and intrigue. And just what would all the political blogs do without this kind of drama?

    I hear we have new legislation being introduced that will dictate drug policies in all of the major sports in this country. Nobody even bats an eye. Think about that.

    How lost have we become….

  • CHENEY — took an “Oath” to defend the Constitution ????!!!! Then promptly trashed it. If that isn’t grounds I don’t know what IS !!! Americans are such wimps !! ( Yes – I AM American — but maybe not for long) GUYS — LOOK — THERE WAS A CONCERTED — YES CONCERTED-(I.E. acting together each instrument playing it’s little part to create a whole sound effect) EFFORT TO COMPLETELY COOK THE BOOKS ON IRAQI INTELLIGENCE — and Yes we used that as a pretext to go to war !! A desperately fatalistically DOOMED war — Why? because of the three factions in Iraq (these are — until less that 100 years ago a nearly completely nomadic area — about 2/3’s of the population lived that wandering life for millenia until post – World War 1 at which time Britain – in an effort to “govern” and control the area – decided it would become Iraq !! And NOW we are astonished that we have bloomin civil war ????? !! == We know W doesn’t read — so what’s the excuse for the rest of this country of rapidly devolving marshmellow brains !!!

  • melior: what lie? I am not defending a lie. No lie was actually presented in the first place, that I can see. CB said Cheney was briefed on what Wilson reported, bu his request. Says who? I find no evidence of this in the indictment. I am not saying it didn’t happen. I am saying the evidence has not been presented.

    If you really think I’m full of it, then just simply present the evidence that shows a. Cheney requested a briefing about Wilson’s trip, b. Cheney got a briefing about Wilson’s trip (and knew the information came from Wilson), or c. that he knew who sent Wilson. Or some other evidence of some other lie. I see none in the indictment, and none has been provided here.

    I do not think so low of you to believe that it is likely that you’re simply believing Cheney lied without evidence, just because you hate him so much. Surely, you know what the evidence is, because you’re not merely a knee-jerk reactionary. So please, tell me, what the evidence is, that my questions may be answered.

  • Of course, CB still has not shown actual evidence Cheney lied, anyway …

    Sorry, pudge, but CB does have a life you know. If you notice he posts during the morning and early afternoon (do you see what time he starts??). It is not that he’s ignoring you. Geez, give the guy a break..

  • Priscilla Kenney:

    “THERE WAS A CONCERTED — YES CONCERTED EFFORT TO COMPLETELY COOK THE BOOKS ON IRAQI INTELLIGENCE”

    Where’s your proof?

    Not sure why I bother. Why would anyone need proof when they are convinced by the strength of their own opinions? 🙂

    And while I am not normally one to point out grammar and spelling and punctuation errors, which your post was rife with, I do so when the person with those errors is insulting the intelligence of others. Get thee to a grade school.

  • “not pudge”: You misinterpreted me. I was not implying he does not have the evidence, just re-asserting that it has not yet been provided, for two purposes: first, in case anyone had thought it had been, and second, to encourage that evidence’s production at some point. I have no grievance with CB for not having responded.

  • Charlie L. You are right, except the
    Constitution is more flexible than you
    suggest. One only has to be “bound
    by oath or affirmation to support this
    Constitution.” Any wording that
    accomplishes this is acceptable.
    Furthermore, one need not invoke
    a deity to comply – an oath does invoke,
    but affirmation does not. Both are
    perfectly acceptable. Our founding
    fathers were very wise.

  • I agree with those who say that Clinton wasn’t really lying in his statements; what was debated was the meaning of “sexual relations”. Ask any good Catholic girl, there’s a big difference between oral sex and intercourse 😉

    But for the sake of argument, lets say he did lie. His big mistake, as many here have indirectly alluded, was telling a lie that could actually be proven. That was the importance of the clandestine taping of conversations and the blue dress.

    The lies of Bush, Cheney, Rove, and the others; while infinitely more destructive and important, are simply harder to prove. More irony that the criminal system that so many Republicans criticize as being too lenient on criminals is precisely what allows them to get away with their crimes.

  • Except, of course, for the specific
    wording of the president – but it
    still does not require an oath, just
    affirmation.

  • Tomorrow, Reid should go into closed session again to call for the removal of Cheney as the Presiding Officer of the Senate. Now is the time to demand that Cheney start telling the truth about his involvement in the lies that his chief aide has been charged with.

  • Forget Cheney. Didn’t W go before Congress to deliver a State of the Union address where he knowingly included 16 words about Iraq trying to obtain uranium from Niger? And hadn’t the administration been warned – repeatedly – by the CIA, the State Department, and Joe Wilson that that was wrong? I believe lying to Congress is impeachable, but in this case you’d need a Congress that is willing to impeach their leader.

  • Bill: “Didn’t W go before Congress to deliver a State of the Union address where he knowingly included 16 words about Iraq trying to obtain uranium from Niger?”

    No, he didn’t. He said “Africa,” not “Niger.” The words were: “The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.”

    “And hadn’t the administration been warned – repeatedly – by the CIA, the State Department, and Joe Wilson that that was wrong?”

    No, and no.

    First, the CIA: they repeatedly said they could not confirm the claim, that they had no significant evidence supporting it. But read the words again: the claim is based on the British intelligence.

    The CIA could complain that it should be able to verify that information before it is used in the State of the Union (and the administration conceded this later, saying it should not have been included because they didn’t verify it), but the CIA could not say the information was wrong, because they did not know it was wrong (and to this day, we don’t know it was wrong).

    Wilson, however, had nothing at all. That’s the silliest thing about this whole scandal: his entire op-ed in the NY Times that started it all was utterly meaningless. He could not say one word directly against Bush’s “16 words”: he only had information about one African nation (Niger) and, like the CIA, he was not privy to the British intelligence.

    Worse, Wilson actually implied that there were two possibilities: that either his information was ignored, or considered inaccurate. That assumes two things: that Bush was talking about Niger, and that Wilson’s investigation was thorough regarding whether Iraq sought uranium.

    But Niger which wasn’t specified; Wilson takes as the evidence that Bush meant Niger that a month earlier State “published a fact sheet that mentioned the Niger case”!

    Similarly, his investigation was not about, generally, whether Iraq sought uranium from Niger. Wilson was investigation was limited, looking into only the forged documents, which Bush’s “16 words” were not even based on.

    That is, Wilson investigated whether Niger *had sold* uranium to Iraq, not whether Iraq *sought* uranium from in Africa. And he therefore did not ever, with any authority or evidence, say that those “16 words” were wrong, and neither did — as best we can tell — the CIA.

  • actually, pudge, you slightly misrepresent the situation, on several levels.

    the first and most important is that we do now know what the situation was: the duelfur report tells us. there was no seeking of uranium.

    so we don’t have to stay awake at night wondering: that is known.

    it’s also known that the brits were referring to Niger, because the butler report told us that. what’s an open question is whether they were only relying only upon the same forged documents or whether there was some other source – they’ve been rather cagey about it.

    it’s also the case that wilson tried to find out from state department contacts whether the reference to Africa was Niger or not, and while the state department contacts couldn’t tell him, the state department fact sheet could. indeed, when the matter blew up into the public eye, the administration conceded that the country was Niger.

    But Wilson also established something else important: that there was no way for Iraq to purchase uranium. so even if they were seeking uranium, which they weren’t, they couldn’t do anything with it, which is why what wilson charged the administration with, in his article, was twisting intel. you can twist intel a variety of ways, and this was one. (Wilson also noted that cheney was bombastically stating that we “knew” that saddam had reconstituted his nuclear weapons program as another example, since we knew no such thing.)

    so i’d give you a B+.

  • “The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.”

    Ahh, it all depends on what you think it means when the President says Saddam Hussein is seeking significant quantities of uranium.

    It was obvious to America that what George Bush really was saying was “THERE IS NO PROOF THAT Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium” After all,”the CIA could not say the information was wrong, because they did not know it was wrong (and to this day, we don’t know it was wrong)” AND we don’t know that it was RIGHT either, do we?

    So your argument is that the President made this claim WITHOUT PROOF and just by adding the words “The British Government has learned” to a sentence we can argue it to be a meaningless phrase which cannot be held to have any meaning of any kind…

    Well, you’re right, the President surely didn’t mean to mislead America by making a statement which nobody could possibly prove to be true or false. If George Bush said “The British Goverment learned that the moon was made of green cheese” there would be no way that anyone could find out the truth and we would just have to base our policies on that fact. We couldn’t possible help it.

  • Pudge, I was going to post a long reply, but there’s no point. From the statement you made . . .

    “That is, Wilson investigated whether Niger *had sold* uranium to Iraq, not whether Iraq *sought* uranium from in Africa. And he therefore did not ever, with any authority or evidence, say that those “16 words” were wrong, and neither did — as best we can tell — the CIA”

    It’s clear to me that you’re a wing-nut who’s bent on trying to defend these guys come hell or high water. You’re bending logic and reason to such extremes as to be laughable. Look, the Administration “heard about a potential deal”.. The CIA investigated and told the Administration “no reason to believe it’s valid”.. So they KNOWINGLY misled Congress with the “British intelligence suggests”, because they KNEW it was not verifiable from OUR intelligence, and “plausably deniable” to blame Britton. That’s criminal when you know what you are telling Congress is -effectively- false.. Had our OWN intelligence NOT told them the documents were crap, they probably wouldn’t be being held to the fire. Your position requires Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld to take, at face value, statements from Britton.. and dealing with a war scenario, if they did that, they are criminally imcompetent.. and failing that, meaning they wanted to know what the intel was, they KNEW it was what was already debunked. Therefore, no matter how you slice it, this Administration acted criminally.. criminal negligence or criminaly misleading Congress.. take your pick

  • “actually, pudge, you slightly misrepresent the situation, on several levels.”

    Actually, howard, no, I don’t misrepresent anything, on any level.

    “the first and most important is that we do now know what the situation was: the duelfur report tells us. there was no seeking of uranium.”

    I didn’t read the Duelfer report. I did skim it, and listened to a lot of what Duelfer had to say about it, and I recall no such thing. Do you have a specific quote from the report claiming this? What I do recall is Duelfer saying that there was no current effort to restart their nuclear programs, but that does not imply that were not working on acquiring materials, either to keep for later, or for someone else to hold for them.

    But to the main point: even if it did state this — which I doubt — the Duelfer report came out much later, and is not useful to informing the state of intelligence at the time, so this is irrelevant to Wilson’s op-ed, or whether the “16 words” were a “lie.”

    “it’s also known that the brits were referring to Niger, because the butler report told us that.”

    Again, you are postdating your information. The Butler Report came out over a year later. There’s no indication that when Wilson wrote his op-ed, that he knew this. I didn’t say that we don’t know it *now,* only that Wilson didn’t know it *then,* which is true. He thought he did — and in retrospect, he was right — but he was jumping to conclusions when he wrote it in the Times op-ed.

    “what’s an open question is whether they were only relying only upon the same forged documents or whether there was some other source – they’ve been rather cagey about it.”

    I can’t find a specific citation at the moment, but I specifically recall Blair saying unequivocally that they had separate intelligence unrelated to the forged documents. Whether this is true or not, is, of course, unknown.

    “it’s also the case that wilson tried to find out from state department contacts whether the reference to Africa was Niger or not, and while the state department contacts couldn’t tell him, the state department fact sheet could.”

    No. The fact sheet talked about Iraq trying to procure uranium from Niger, but didn’t directly imply that Bush’s “16 words” was about Niger. Yes, he could make a good *guess* that the fact sheet was directly related to the 16 words, but — unless there’s something Wilson isn’t telling — there was no way for him to know it at the time.

    “But Wilson also established something else important: that there was no way for Iraq to purchase uranium. so even if they were seeking uranium, which they weren’t, they couldn’t do anything with it, which is why what wilson charged the administration with, in his article, was twisting intel.”

    It doesn’t follow that just because Joe Wilson says there’s no way for them to purchase uranium (and excuse me, but I am skeptical when anyone says there’s no way to do something, especially when we are constantly told that terrorists can get their hands on this stuff) that they didn’t try to do so. And all Bush said is that they *tried* to do so, as a means to express the intent of the Hussein regime to reconstitute their nuclear weapons program (which, I should add, the Duelfer report you previously cited unequivocally confirms).

    “(Wilson also noted that cheney was bombastically stating that we “knew” that saddam had reconstituted his nuclear weapons program as another example, since we knew no such thing.)”

    Heh, thanks for adding that. Out of all the accusations against Bush and Cheney, this is the most clear example of them saying something that is false, and yet the silly nonsense about how Fitzgerald proved Cheney lied is focused on instead of this.

    I’ll quickly concede to that: the statement by Cheney on Meet the Press in March 2003 was complete bullshit.

    Personally, I was and am in favor of the war, but I never believed Hussein had WMD. I have IRC logs with liberal friends of mine in February 2003 saying they were convinced by Powell’s speech to the UN that Hussein had nukes, and I was saying that I remained unconvinced. But I supported the war, for fairly neoconservative reasons, though I generally eschew the label: I think the region needs transformation to prevent a much greater coming tragedy in future years, and that the way to start is to get rid of Hussein.

    That was and is the only reason I supported the war. And as such, the thing that pissed me off the most in the buildup to the war was the lack of transparency, honesty, and believability by the administration, especially Cheney and Powell and Bush. They all had to stick to their talking points about WMD instead of coming out and stating their true neoimperalist goals of regional transformation. It was talked about, it was implied, but it was never the focus, and it should have been.

  • Big Time Patriot: “So your argument is that the President made this claim WITHOUT PROOF and just by adding the words “The British Government has learned” to a sentence we can argue it to be a meaningless phrase which cannot be held to have any meaning of any kind…”

    No, that is not my argument. I never said anything of the sort. I never stated nor implied it had no meaning, only that it obviously wasn’t supported by U.S. intelligence, and that as best we can tell, it was not a lie (nor even false).

    I knew at the time he said it that it was a weak claim, simply by how it was worded. But obviously, it was included to try to sway the American people, worded in such a way as to have deniability.

    I already said they could not verify it and that they were therefore wrong to include it, and noted that even the administration conceded this; what more do you want?

  • “That’s criminal when you know what you are telling Congress is -effectively- false.”

    It wasn’t false, as best we know today, effectively or otherwise.

    “Had our OWN intelligence NOT told them the documents were crap, they probably wouldn’t be being held to the fire.”

    Except, of course, that the British intelligence wasn’t based on those documents, according to the British at the time, and now.

    “Your position requires Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld to take, at face value, statements from Britton.. and dealing with a war scenario, if they did that, they are criminally imcompetent..”

    So are those who spell words like “Britton” and “imcompetent.” But I digress.

    Yes, they were wrong to take those statements at face value, as they later conceded. They said in summer of 2003 that it was wrong to include that statement, because it could not be verified. But that is different from saying that the words were false, which — as best we can tell — they were not.

  • “what’s an open question is whether they were only relying only upon the same forged documents or whether there was some other source – they’ve been rather cagey about it.”

    Only to you.. To those of us who actually bother to pay attention to the words spoken, their being “cagey” and avoiding questions tells a lot about intent. You being willing to give them the benifit of the doubt when they are being “cagey” is a flaw in your own head. Honest people aren’t “cagey”, that’s reserved for people trying to pull something over on you.. get it?

    “It doesn’t follow that just because Joe Wilson says there’s no way for them to purchase uranium (and excuse me, but I am skeptical when anyone says there’s no way to do something, especially when we are constantly told that terrorists can get their hands on this stuff) that they didn’t try to do so”

    Again, you CHOSE to believe the people who had holes in their statements OVER the person that went and did the investigating on the ground. You chose to do that because you “wanted to”, not because the “facts” indicated anything substantial. You are constantly told “terrorists can get their hands on it” because it serves the purpose of keeping you scared, and reacting, not thinking. You are also NOT told the truth about a lot of things (this is a fact any self-respecting American would admit.. it’s well documented how corrupt the Government has gotten in the past few decades).. for example, “dirty bombs” probably wouldn’t kill -anyone- if one was detinated in a major city. Many professionals/scientists stand behind that, yet your LEADERS keep using that term as a way to scare the shit out of you.. to keep you from being rational.

    “It doesn’t follow that just because Joe Wilson says there’s no way for them to purchase uranium (and excuse me, but I am skeptical when anyone says there’s no way to do something, especially when we are constantly told that terrorists can get their hands on this stuff) that they didn’t try to do so”

    See, again.. your position is all about illegal action and imoral precepts. Here in America, we don’t go killing people because of their beliefs or thoughts, we only hold you accountable for your actions, and only in THIS country. Saddam, as bad of a man as he might be, was not a “threat” to the United States (as facts now bear out).

    This isn’t about “making the world a better place”, because you can’t go smashing in people’s faces and expect “decent things to happen”.. if you do, you’re a moron. Notice how terrorists were NOT in Iraq before, but are there now? and getting MORE recruits? because of our ILLEGAL action and occupation? Descrimination is bad, period, and genocide (which, face it..is what you are condoning) is never an answer. Preventing “dangerous regiems” from getting WMDs, ok.. I agree.. If they want to live a life in a context we consider “backward and dangerous to the rest of the world”, they have that right. We also have the right (as a global community, not solo cowboys) to make sure they don’t get crazy with serious weapons. However, we have no right do dismantle their entire society.

    The neocon idea of “destroying anything non-christian” is going to get us all killed. There are a lot more people of “other faiths” than Christian.. and while the numbers of Islamic people might be near on-par, if you tell the rest of the world’s religions “you’re on notice”, they WILL come after you. The U.S. has NO RIGHT to invade sovereign countries, unless they are a clear threat. You even concede there was no threat from Iraq/Saddam, but you don’t care. You want to do the most un-American thing there is to do.. deny someone their right to their own beliefs/religion. As long as their ACTIONS aren’t violating YOUR rights, you have no business pushing your beliefs on them. Go read your Constitution and get a clue..

  • “Except, of course, that the British intelligence wasn’t based on those documents, according to the British at the time, and now.”

    Only in your little world where invading (wait, lemme go get the dictionary so you don’t cry about my spelling.. heaven forbid!) sovereign countries is ok to suit your bigger agenda.

    “So are those who spell words like “Britton” and “imcompetent.” But I digress.”

    What a total dip-shit you are.. criminally incompetent for making a typo? you compare that to killing 2000+ American Troops and pissing away $300 billion dollars? I guess you just made my point.

    Since you are one of those morons who insist that typos mean “it’s ok to dismiss someone’s point, they can’t type”, I’ll give you background on me.. I have Dyslexia and Dysgraphia. Spelling isn’t something my brain does well, and in fact, spelling is kind of an irrelavant thing, in the greater context of life.. don’t you think? Well, we know you dont’ think.. but.. I think you might get the idea. And pointing out “spelling mistakes” and trying to imply that those are somehow on par with -treason- is, well, laugable to anyone with an IQ over 50.. No, really.. keep up the good arguments on flawed logic.. at least your spelling is on, right?

    “Yes, they were wrong to take those statements at face value, as they later conceded.”

    and THIS is what makes you one of the reasons people around the world hate Americans. You’re an idiot. Went to war on “oh, sorry.. guess we should have checked that out better”?? Again, what part of “criminal” don’t you get? 2000 dead Americans.. if you get drunk and run someone over, do you get a pass for LATER saying “oops.. guess I shouldn’t have been drunk”? No, you go to prison for your CRIME.. And, again, YOU believe they didn’t “know” the origin of the “british intelligence”, I say bullshit… yet, they refuse to release all the documents (obstruction, anyone?) that would prove if they knew or not.. Hmm.. another “cagey” action by the criminals in charge..

    “They said in summer of 2003 that it was wrong to include that statement, because it could not be verified.”

    If it was wrong, they why did they do it? You know as well as I.. it was to get an illegal war moving. Intent is all that matters to prove ciminality.. the intent was to “get us to war regardless of facts”, as they PROVED by not VERIFYING the information first… get it?

    Well, I think you do.. I think you know all too well that this entire war was based on known lies, you just want to twist it as far as you can so your heros don’t end up in prison. Good luck with that.. If there is -any- justice in this world, your boys will swing for treason (not holding my breath, they got away with lies in ’91 too.. people just don’t seem to care, or are like you.. as un-American as they are)

  • “Only to you”

    I wasn’t the one who wrote they were being “cagey.” Oopsie.

    “Again, you CHOSE to believe the people who had holes in their statements OVER the person that went and did the investigating on the ground.”

    I did? When was that? What people did I choose to believe, over which other people?

    “You are constantly told “terrorists can get their hands on it” because it serves the purpose of keeping you scared”

    Well, and also, because it is possible, especially in regard to unsecured nuclear material in the former Soviet Union. This is a serious danger.

    “You are also NOT told the truth about a lot of things … for example, “dirty bombs” probably wouldn’t kill -anyone- if one was detinated in a major city.”

    Actually, it would possibly kill people in close proximity, as a dirty bomb requires conventional exploisives, which — as we see every week in Iraq — do kill people. Especially if one is detonated in a major city.

    Further, it’s quite possible that people would eventually die from the radiation, especially young children, the elderly, and those already suffering from illness.

    Regardless … I know the facts about dirty bombs. I don’t understand why you use this as an example of something I don’t know. And the government gives pretty good information about dirty bombs, contrary to your assertion.

    “Saddam, as bad of a man as he might be, was not a “threat” to the United States”

    That’s an opinion I disagree with.

    “Notice how terrorists were NOT in Iraq before, but are there now?”

    Actually, no. We know about many examples of terrorists in Iraq before. The most famous example is Abu Nidal, a Palestinian terrorist group whose leader was living in Baghdad for years. There are other examples, as well.

    “because of our ILLEGAL action and occupation?”

    First, the invasion and subsequent occupation were not illegal. Yes, some people think it is, but they are wrong. No law that the U.S. is subject to disallowed the action. The only one people can point to is the one in the UN Charter that says member nations must not act on their own, but must go through the UN, but it is something that is interpreted in many ways, and has never been found to have the force of law.

    Second, there certainly is not now an illegal occupation, since the duly elected government of Iraq wants us there.

    “Descrimination is bad, period, and genocide (which, face it..is what you are condoning) is never an answer.”

    Um … I am advocating “genocide” and “dIscrimination”? Do you even know what those words mean? I do not advocate discrimination against anyone, unless it is to discriminate against Hussein and members of his regime who committed crimes, by prosecuting them and sentencing them accordingly. And I do not in any way advocate the destruction of any ethnic, cultural, national, ideological, political, or religious group, such as might possibly constitute “genocide.”

    “If they want to live a life in a context we consider “backward and dangerous to the rest of the world”, they have that right. … However, we have no right do dismantle their entire society.”

    And I am not in favor of doing so. I support their right to choose their own path, once we get rid of Hussein for them, which is something a great majority of them were and are in favor of.

    “The neocon idea of “destroying anything non-christian” is going to get us all killed.”

    No such idea has ever existed. You misunderstand. The intent is to keep the U.S. safe, and the action is not to destroy anythign “non-Christian,” but to destroy those things which threaten us, when necessary.

    And I don’t mean to say Iraq posed a threat because of WMD. I don’t care about WMD. I didn’t care then, and I don’t care now. The threat is that the entire Middle East has been devolving for decades into less and less economic and social liberty, which is itself the root cause of terrorism that threatens not just the U.S. and the West, but threatens to plunge the entire world into another catastrophic war.

    And the neoconservative solution is to provide more liberty, more oppportunity — economic and social, over time, perhaps a generation or more — to decrease the external factors that feed this threat. And part of that solution means getting rid of Saddam Hussein, not because he had WMD, but because he was an ever-present roadblock for the rest of the region’s advancement toward liberty and opportunity.

    He directly supported terrorism. He kept tensions high for Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan. He was a constant threat to Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and the U.S. troops stationed in Saudi Arabia (which left as soon as the invasion was complete, which decreased another constant tension in the region). With him gone, the region can advance. With him there, it cannot. That’s the real equation.

    You can disagree with the reasoning, but try not to misrepresent it in the future.

    “and while the numbers of Islamic people might be near on-par”

    Actually, they are. There’s more than a million Muslims in the world, and more than two million Christians. That’s a whole lot of both.

    “The U.S. has NO RIGHT to invade sovereign countries, unless they are a clear threat.”

    And Iraq was a clear threat under Hussein. Maybe not clear to you, but clear to me.

    “You even concede there was no threat from Iraq/Saddam, but you don’t care.”

    No, I do not. I said they were not a threat in regard to WMD.

    “You want to do the most un-American thing there is to do.. deny someone their right to their own beliefs/religion.”

    Religion has not a thing to do with this, whatsoever. In fact, Hussein’s was basically secular, and the new government is going to be far more religious, and that’s fine with me.

    “As long as their ACTIONS aren’t violating YOUR rights, you have no business pushing your beliefs on them. Go read your Constitution and get a clue..”

    Even if I were pushing my beliefs on the people of Iraq, which I am not, there’s nothing in the Constitution prohibiting such a thing. You should read the Constitution, if you think it does, because it clearly doesn’t.

    You’d be better off telling me to read the words of Washington, Adams, and Madison about staying out of foreign entanglements. Which I do read, often.

    “What a total dip-shit you are.. criminally incompetent for making a typo?”

    It wasn’t a typo. Maybe the latter was, but the former wasn’t, as you rendered it incorrectly several times. But that’s not the point.

    The point is simply that I find it insanely funny that someone of your obvious intellectual difficulties is accusing others of being incompetent. That’s the point.

    “Since you are one of those morons who insist that typos mean “it’s ok to dismiss someone’s point, they can’t type””

    I don’t insist that at all. I do insist on pointing out poor language skills to people who insist that *other* people are “morons.” If you don’t want me bashing your language skills, stop calling other people incompetent, morons, stupid, and so on. It’s simple: stop calling names, and I’ll stop pointing out your own personal flaws.

    “I’ll give you background on me.. I have Dyslexia and Dysgraphia. Spelling isn’t something my brain does well, and in fact, spelling is kind of an irrelavant thing, in the greater context of life.. don’t you think?”

    No, no, I don’t. I find verbal and written language skills to be some of the most important things in life, especially when we’re talking about such highly complex issues as these, where language makes all the difference, and a lack of command of the language is severely damaging to one’s ability to comprehend those issues.

    “And pointing out “spelling mistakes” and trying to imply that those are somehow on par with -treason-”

    But speaking of reading the Constitution: in no way has what Bush done — even if you believe he lied to get us into an illegal war simply to line his bank accounts with oil money — amounted to treason. The Constitution clearly says: “Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.” So unless Bush’s actions were acts of war against the U.S., or helping the enemies of the U.S. in war, it is not treason.

    (And no, pushing policies that are bad, that help them against us, does not count, unless it is *intentionally* helping our enemies against us, which I’d think not even you would insist.)

    “Went to war on “oh, sorry.. guess we should have checked that out better”??”

    Anyone who thinks we went to war over those “16 words” really needs to check the facts. That statement was so minor in the buildup to war, most people didn’t even remember it being said until Wilson brought it up again later. It was not even mentioned by Powell the next month in his speech to the UN (yet another tacit admission by the administration that there was scant evidence available to support the claim).

    “And, again, YOU believe they didn’t “know” the origin of the “british intelligence”, I say bullshit”

    You can say whatever you like, but we are here talking about *actual evidence.* And you have none, as you admit.

    “I think you know all too well that this entire war was based on known lies”

    No. I know far too much to believe such simplistic nonsense. I do know that the WMD evidence was never very good, but I also know — as you would too, if you really had been following along — that the only reason the WMD points were at the forefront was because everyone agreed to it. Not only all of the U.S. intelligence services, but almost all the foreign ones too. They all agreed Iraq had WMD.

    But WMD was never the real basis for the war. That’s the main lie, that the basis was WMD, when in fact the main point of the war was to reform the Middle East. That’s why Bush said to Woodward that we won’t know if his policy is successful, because by the time it is evident, “we’ll all be dead.” His policy from the beginning was the long term transformation of the region.

    The war was “sold” on WMD, though, and I agree it was wrong of them to do that, because it was never the main reason for the war. I said so before the invasion, and I say it now.

    “you just want to twist it as far as you can so your heros don’t end up in prison.”

    For what? There is no crime seriously being alleged here, at all, except in the Plame affair. And I’ve already stated that anyone who broke the law in that affair should be in prison, and anyone who otherwise leaked classified information should be fired. *shrug*

    “If there is -any- justice in this world, your boys will swing for treason”

    Again, I’ll point out that you obviously don’t know what treason is, and laugh at how you insist *other* people are stupid and incompetent and so on.

  • A bit off subject, but is pudge the best hair splitter in blogdom??

    So, Bush said Africa, not Niger, so it is null and void as evidence? A fine hair, at that.

    No, I suppose you might be correct that CB didn’t post the indictment of Libby details from Fitz. Then again, perhaps Fitz ain’t letin’ the cat out of the bag yet.

    I think benjoya nailed it, and you still defend aginst any Dick misdeeds? Sure.

    Like anyone with a clue wouldn’t figure out WILSON, Joseph was a CIA Spy posing as an Ambassador.

  • you all are doing keyboard gymnastics.
    coming from people who are suppose to be “moral” and “ethical” and plugged into the “divine hotline” with God to whom g.w.b. listened to going to war, a mistruth, a lie , a statement ment to deceive, “technically true” , is still a lie. you all are saying who found what, when it happened…… did cheney lie when he said he never met joe wilson? yes he did. did he lie when he said he never met john edwards? yes, he did. did he lie when he said that the insurgence is in it final throws? yes he did.
    there is a saying in my church” just because something is lawful, doesn’t mean it is not a sin to participate in that activity”.
    i know what treason is. it was not what clinton did. sending people off to die to defend a lie is.
    pudge, you have a short memory as to why we went to war and what was said in the lead up to the war. what was powell saying at the U.N.? what was bush saying in the state of the union address as we were heading towards war. only using the administrations words, it was all about wmd’s.
    hans blix, mohomed alberdi, scott ritter, karen kwiakowski, paul oniel, general shiseki, bob woodward, downing street memos, scooter’s indictment, among other people and events, have spoken and witnessed the truth. if you think that everyone who speaks out against the administration is lying, you are in for a rude awakening in 2006.

  • Pudge,

    I thoroughly disagree with you, but I sort of have a grudging admiriation of your ability to defend yourself (sort of reminds me of President Clinton). That said, the weakist point of your argument is the WMD part. YOU didn’t think Saddam had WMD (neither did I). But the Bushies worked very hard to convince us that Saddam did. While YOU didn’t think we were going to war to stop Saddam because he was very close to using his “reconstituted” WMD program, the MAJORITY of the country did. That majority enabled Bush to steam roll Congress. Your trick is conflating your personal beliefs on the casus belli(spelling?) with the majority of the country’s belief in the casus belli.

    The lie of the administration was in using the 16 words together with aluminium (probably mispelled that too) tubes (the experts at Livermore and Oak Ridge hotly disputed the claim. The supporters of the tube theory had no expertise in that area according to a NY TImes article at that time) along with the bogus Atta meeting with the Iraqi’s to present the case that the threat was “imminent” threat, which there was not. [Digression: YOU think Saddam was a threat, but would you have called him an imminent” threat? I bet not.] That was a lie.

    Remember the old cliche (not sure if it is Twain or Allen Sherman- I think Allen Sherman): take 99 parts lie add 1 part truth and it is a lie. Take 99 parts truth and add 1 part lie and it is still a lie. Moral: Lies are stronger than truth. My point here is twofold. First regardless of how many small “truthful” facts the Bushies added to their main lie (that Saddam was an “imminent” threat) it was STILL a lie. 2ndly, your marvelous ability to defend that lie is evidnce of the moral. Lies are stronger than truth. More’s the pity.

    Chew on this awhile: The administration didn’t like the answers it was getting from the traditional intel services, so Cheney and Libby went down to CIA to strong arm them to produce “better results”. That is to say, results more to their likiing, results to support the casus belli against Iraq they desperately wanted. They also set up the Office of Special Plans to anaylize the intel, so it could be interpretated they way they wanted it. If the facts were on the Bushies side, why did they do that?

    Got to go to work now.

  • Great column! Maybe you should turn this evidence over to the democratic leadership. It may raise some eyebrows!

  • “The lies of Bush, Cheney, Rove, and the others; while infinitely more destructive and important, are simply harder to prove.”

    Bush lies are not hard to prove.

    Line up all the times he and his minions said therew ere no plans to invade Iraq. Add dates.

    Then put those alongside the Downing Street Memos.

    QED.

  • A provocative and enlightening debate. The words of Eric Hoffer get to the essence of the current Republican form of governing in post 9/11 America.

    “The only index by which to judge a government or a way of life is by the quality of the people it acts upon. No matter how noble the objectives of a government, if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion – it is an evil government.”
    -Eric Hoffer, THE PASSIONATE STATE OF MIND (1955)

  • http://www.infoplease.com/spot/impeach.html

    The way I’m reading everything that I’ve found on the topic, it sure sounds like the Oath of Office is constantly binding. Consequently, lying, unless done for reasons of national security, is perjurious, and is grounds for impeachment under the standards of high crimes and misdemeanors.

    I realize that the votes for impeachment aren’t there in either the House of representatives, or in the Senate. However, the grounds are there, and lying by either the President or the Vice President of the United States unless done for reasons of national security is an impeachable offense as it would violate their Oath of Office.

    Check the link, or Google it, but Cheney’s problems may be bigger than we know.

  • farang: “So, Bush said Africa, not Niger, so it is null and void as evidence? A fine hair, at that.”

    You’re confused. When I discussed that fact, I used it only to show that Wilson jumped to conclusions, as he did not know Bush was referring to Niger, and claimed he did know it.

    “No, I suppose you might be correct that CB didn’t post the indictment of Libby details from Fitz. Then again, perhaps Fitz ain’t letin’ the cat out of the bag yet.”

    No, you’re confused again. It’s about Cheney that we’re talking here. And yes, Fitz might have something on Cheney. He also might have something on Reid and Schumer! Anything’s possible! But staying in the realm of the reasonable, it’s unlikely.

    “I think benjoya nailed it, and you still defend aginst any Dick misdeeds?”

    No. I am asking for evidence of misdeeds. Anyone who would think asking for evidence of misdeeds is tatamount to defending against any misdeeds has really checked their head at the door.

    scott d: “a statement ment to deceive, “technically true” , is still a lie.”

    True. Now you just need to provide some evidence that Bush intended to use those 16 words to deceive, because none has yet been found.

    “did cheney lie when he said he never met joe wilson? yes he did.”

    Yes, this is what I am talking about. Where’s the evidence to support this claim? I am not saying the claim is false, I am saying I’ve found no evidence supporting it, and I find it odd that so many people are chastising me for “defending” Cheney on this charge, and yet no one can actually provide evidence to support it.

    “i know what treason is. it was not what clinton did. sending people off to die to defend a lie is.”

    OK, then no, you don’t know what treason is, because that doesn’t qualify. You too need to read the Constitution. Sending people off to die to defend a lie is not waging war against the U.S., or providing aid iun war to the enemies of the U.S., and is therefore not treason.

    “pudge, you have a short memory as to why we went to war and what was said in the lead up to the war.”

    No, I don’t.

    “what was powell saying at the U.N.?”

    As I noted above: he was saying things which, at the time, I did not believe.

    “what was bush saying in the state of the union address as we were heading towards war. only using the administrations words, it was all about wmd’s.”

    Well, no, you’re the one with the short memory. Bush and the administration talked about many other reasons for war. WMD took center stage, but they also talked a lot about the human rights atrocities (which were so central that they were even included in the justification for war passed by the Congress), as well as terrorism, freedom, and so on.

    “if you think that everyone who speaks out against the administration is lying”

    I never remotely implied any such thing.

    molly bloom: “YOU didn’t think Saddam had WMD (neither did I). But the Bushies worked very hard to convince us that Saddam did.”

    Yes, and I didn’t like it at the time. But also realize that there’s no evidnce the administration believed that Hussein did NOT have WMD. As best I can tell, they believed Hussein had WMD, but also realized the evidence for it was weak. So while I am disappointed in the tactic, it doesn’t amount to lying in my mind, because they believed it to be true.

    On the other hand, I do think it was dishonest, because they should have been straightforward about their own lack of confidence in the intelligence (such as when Bush said to Tenet, “this is the best we’ve got?” [paraphrased]).

    Regardless, my disappointment with the administration over all this was insufficient to turn me away from what I thought, and think, is the right and essential course of action: the removal of Hussein, by force and without significant international help, if necessary.

    You don’t have to convince me that they were wrong (although you do have some work if you want to convince me that the narrative that Hussein had WMD was a lie, first because I am still unconvinced the WMD were not shipped off to Syria, and second because I see no evidence the administration didn’t believe Hussein had WMD).

    “Your trick is conflating your personal beliefs on the casus belli(spelling?) with the majority of the country’s belief in the casus belli.”

    No, I am not conflating. On the contrary, I am distinguishing. There are several points here to make, but basically, there is my reason for supporting the war (regional transformation), which now appears to be the administration’s justification, which is very different from what most people thought at the time. And while I do support some of the arguments the administration made (for example, they were right in almost all of what they said regarding Hussein’s noncompliance with UN resolutions, the aluminum tubes being a notable exception), I don’t support their overreliance on the WMD argument, especially when it seems to me their real reasons for war — despite believing that Hussein did have WMD — were, at root, very different from the one they were selling.

    “Digression: YOU think Saddam was a threat, but would you have called him an imminent” threat? I bet not.”

    OK, not to sound like Clinton, but it depends on what you mean by imminent. 🙂 If you mean would Hussein attack us at any moment? No, of course not. But on the other hand, Hussein was for more than 10 years attacking U.S. soldiers on a weekly basis (firing at our no-fly zone patrols), was directly funding Palestinian terrorist attacks, was harboring terrorists (Abu Nidal), and was maintaining tensions that did pose an imminent threat to the U.S.

    Again I’ll mention Saudi Arabia. We had troops stationed there because Saudi Arabia asked us to keep them there to protect them from Hussein. And what was one of the main reasons why Bin Laden said he attacked the U.S. on 9/11? Because of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia. Which left as soon as the invasion of Iraq was complete, in March or April of 2003, IIRC.

    So yes, I do not think Hussein posed an imminent threat, in terms of a direct attack, except for his unsuccessful but persistent direct attacks against U.S. patrols (which, frankly, was reason enough to bomb the hell out of Baghdad). But he was beyond a mere threat to us by his presence, policies, and indirect actions.

    “First regardless of how many small “truthful” facts the Bushies added to their main lie (that Saddam was an “imminent” threat) it was STILL a lie.”

    You keep assuming they didn’t believe Hussein had an active WMD program. This is not supported by any evidence I’ve seen, and is a prerequisite for calling it a lie.

    “Chew on this awhile: The administration didn’t like the answers it was getting from the traditional intel services, so Cheney and Libby went down to CIA to strong arm them to produce “better results”. That is to say, results more to their likiing, results to support the casus belli against Iraq they desperately wanted.”

    That’s a nice story, but an examination of the actual evidence shows their actions were not abnormal or wrong. They thought there was something more than there and pushed the CIA to work harder to get better results. There is *no evidence* they encouraged the manufacture or twisting of intelligence by the CIA or any other intelligence service.

    And as we now know quite well, the CIA’s intelligence was very weak; I’m quite glad that the administration was skeptical of it and pushed harder for better results. I wish they would have been even more skeptical.

    “They also set up the Office of Special Plans to anaylize the intel, so it could be interpretated they way they wanted it. If the facts were on the Bushies side, why did they do that?”

    I already expressed, fully I think, my dissastisfaction with how they “sold” the war, but realize that spinning the war to the public — something every administration in our history, that has been at war, has done, though degrees are debatable — is different from attempting to get the intelligence services to manipulate the facts, something for which there is no evidence, except for a few people who said they “feel” that is what they were asked to do, which in my book is no evidence at all.

    Taurus: “Line up all the times he and his minions said therew ere no plans to invade Iraq. Add dates. Then put those alongside the Downing Street Memos.”

    Heh. Except that the “DSM” don’t prove that there were plans to invade Iraq. They only prove the author of the memos believed that the administration was going to go to war regardless, but they don’t say *why* the author believed that. Maybe someone told him: if so, who? Maybe he saw a document: if so, what did it say? Maybe he was just making a prediction.

    The liberal hubbub over the DSM is even worse than the hubbub over Joe Wilson’s op-ed. There’s literally nothing of substance there.

  • This “pudge” dude has obviously got access to some really strong, fine drugs.

    I guess nobody told him to just say, “NO”.

    But I do enjoy seeing his MORAL RELATAVISM stick out like an
    appendage from Gannon/Guckert!!

    Give us more, pudge! Please!

  • nikto: so what you’re saying, then, is you know of no evidence that Cheney lied in regard to Wilson. Thanks.

    Anyone else?

  • Pudge,

    You have told us several times, you didn’t think Saddam had WMD and you were disappointed in the way the war was sold. In you latest post, you tell me you think the WMD was spirited away to Syria. The WMD you didn’t believe in was smuggled into Syria.

    Me thinks you would have your cake and eat it too!

    The evidence we have, the 16 words, the aluminum tubes, the non-existent Atta meeting added together suggest they lied. Lets look at the Bush and Cheny’s track record.

    Bush: “I will fire the leakers.” We now know both Karl Rove and Scooter Libby leaked (regardless of whether or not Fitz decided to bring an indictment under IIPA or the Espionageg act) classified information, in violation of their classified information non-disclosure agreements that they signed as a condition of their employment at the WH. . We have known this since Cooper testified in the case of Rove and since Miller testified in the case of Miller. Bush lied.

    Cheney: “I first met John Edwards at the debate tonight.” We, of course, have video of Cheney meeting Edwards llong before the debate.

    In fact there are entire books documenting Cheney’s and Bush’s lack of veracity- e.g. David Corn’s book or John Dean’s.

    Conclusion: Their reputation for truth and honesty is not good. flashback to what we know about the 16 words, the aluminum tubes, the non-existent Atta meeting. incompetance or lies. I think a reasonable jury can conclude: lies.

    Regarding your assertion that the CIA intel was bad. Actually the CIA was correct ab out the Niger documents, the tubex and the Atta meeting. It was the OSP that got it wrong. I expect if we went through the CIA’s intel line by line, they were right more often than not.

    Regarding your assertion that Cheney and Libby did not demand the CIA come up with a smoking gun to be used as an excuse for war, that is contradicted by the testimony of CIA officers who have stated they feld pressured to do just that, according to articles in the WAPO and NY TImes.

    The circumstanical case that they lied is strong. Men have been sent to jail on less.

  • Pudge – Re: “I don’t know Joe Wilson. I’ve never met Joe Wilson.” Yes, maybe Cheney didn’t know him personally, but it doesn’t mean he didn’t know who he was.

    Read the indictment which says: “Wilson stated that he believed, based on his understanding of government procedures, that the Office of the Vice President was advised of the results of his trip.” Per the timeline, this was in July 2003, and the Cheney quote was in Sept 2003. Is Wilson lying to Fitzgerald about government procedure? Unlikely.

    Also, during that same summer 03 (per the indictment), Libby was working on discrediting Wilson. If Libby is taking so much time and effort on one person, don’t you think Cheney would know who that person was?

    In addition, Wilson was also having articles published about the issue that summer, as well as going on Meet the Press. So how could the VP not know who Joe Wilson was?

    Of course there is not evidence that Cheney read these articles or watched the show, but it is common sense that he would have at least been briefed on them and who this Wilson guy was who was trying to discredit the White House.

    By the way, the indictment is here and I suggest you read it as it provides a lot more information than I can here: http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/osc/documents/libby_indictment_28102005.pdf.

  • “In you latest post, you tell me you think the WMD was spirited away to Syria.”

    No, I didn’t. I said it is possible, not that it’s what I think happened.

    “The WMD you didn’t believe in was smuggled into Syria. Me thinks you would have your cake and eat it too!”

    You’re a bit confused. When I say I don’t believe something, that does not mean I disbelieve it. I did not believe there were *no* WMD, and I did not believe there *were* WMD. I didn’t take a position, as I was unconvinced by the arguments for either.

    “The evidence we have, the 16 words”

    Which were, as best we can tell, true.

    “the aluminum tubes”

    Which you have no evidence that anyone lied about. I am pretty good with the science, and it’s nonobvious to me why the tubes could not be used; and you expect Bush or Cheney to understand something so technical? The CIA tells them the tubes can be used, they believe the CIA.

    You can blame Bush for using those “16 words” against the wishes of the CIA. But it was the CIA that told him the tubes were bad. Just because Bush and Powell etc. were wrong about the tubes doesn’t mean they lied about the tubes.

    “the non-existent Atta meeting”

    Again, relying on faulty intelligence is not lying, if you don’t have reason to suspect it is false. In this case, not CIA intel, but again, considering how often the CIA was wrong, can we blame anyone for looking outside the CIA, at British and Czech intel?

    “added together suggest they lied.”

    Only to someone predisposed to believe the worst.

    “Lets look at the Bush and Cheny’s track record.”

    Let’s not. I never said neither ever lied. I never implied any such thing. I did defend against certain claims of lies regarding WMD, and I asked for actual *evidence* of lies in regard to what Cheney said about Wilson. But I never said any of them never told a lie while in office.

    In fact, one of my biggest gripes about Bush have to do with certain lies about the economy, like how he was going to cut spending and the deficit (before he ballooned it, that is). And how in his announcement of his tax cuts of 2003 — which I largely liked — he said it was a tax cut for every federal income tax payer, when in fact, many in the 10 percent bracket (those with no spouse, children, or dividend income) got no tax cut.

    Most politicians tell lies. This is not news, and I am not denying it in general, nor in the specific case of Bush or his administration officials. And I am not going to go over a whole bunch of cases where he may or may not have lied. It’s boring.

    However, I should point out a flaw with this:

    “Bush: “I will fire the leakers.””

    If you want to look at someone’s “record” you should start by not misquoting them. He didn’t actually say those words.

    “In fact there are entire books documenting Cheney’s and Bush’s lack of veracity- e.g. David Corn’s book or John Dean’s.”

    Ooooo. There’s also entire books claiming that Bush stole the 2004 election with the help of Diebold! And entire SHELVES full of books about Roswell!

    “Conclusion: Their reputation for truth and honesty is not good.”

    Neither is any Democrat’s (especially guys like Clinton, Dean, and Kerry). This is not evidence in itself.

    “flashback to what we know about the 16 words, the aluminum tubes, the non-existent Atta meeting. incompetance or lies. I think a reasonable jury can conclude: lies.”

    I think you are a poor judge of such things, as you’re pretty well biased against them to begin with. However, the record is pretty clear, that the CIA pushed hard on the aluminum tubes, and there’s no evidence the administration was lying about it. Similar for the Atta affair.

    “Regarding your assertion that the CIA intel was bad. Actually the CIA was correct ab out the Niger documents”

    Again, you’re confused here. The adminstration didn’t contradicted the CIA on the Niger documents. The “16 words” were separate and distinct from that.

    “the tube[s]”

    No. The tubes story began with a CIA brief saying that’s what the tubes existed for. Later, after it became heavily scrutinized, the CIA backed off, and said there was debate, and they couldn’t be sure. Newsweek reports, “At the CIA, Tenet seems to have latched on to the tubes as a kind of smoking gun. He brought one of the tubes to a closed Senate hearing [in September 2002].” Even in February 2003, Tenet was saying he didn’t know. This is a far cry from the CIA being “correct” about them.

    It was the State Department who expressed the strongest doubts about the tubes, not the CIA. Of course, in the end, it was the CIA that briefed Powell for his UN presentation. It was Tenet who called the case for Iraq’s WMD a “slam dunk” in the Oval Office.

    “Regarding your assertion that Cheney and Libby did not demand the CIA come up with a smoking gun to be used as an excuse for war”

    What I asserted is that they did not demand any intelligence be twisted or falsified. They did pressure hard for evidence, but there’s no evidence that this pressure amounted to a request for falsification.

    The CIA was telling the administration, “we are sure that Hussein has active WMD programs.” So the administration pressured hard, for the CIA to get better — not false — evidence for it. That is not a *bad* thing, it’s the *correct* thing! I wish they’d pressured even more, and been even more skeptical of the CIA’s claims.

    “that is contradicted by the testimony of CIA officers who have stated they feld pressured to do just that, according to articles in the WAPO and NY TImes.”

    Yes, they “felt.” Lots of people feel things, and I do not consider that, alone, evidence worth contemplating, especially since there is plenty of counterevidence from people who say that the pressure — which did exist, and rightly so — did not amount to a request for falsification of evidence, and further, there’s no evidence at all that anything *was* falsified by the CIA, or that there were any consequences for such a lack of falsification.

  • Brian: “”I don’t know Joe Wilson. I’ve never met Joe Wilson.” Yes, maybe Cheney didn’t know him personally, but it doesn’t mean he didn’t know who he was.”

    Cheney never said or implied he didn’t know who Wilson was, so what’s your point?

    “Wilson stated that he believed, based on his understanding of government procedures, that the Office of the Vice President was advised of the results of his trip.”

    Correct, Wilson believed that.

    “Per the timeline, this was in July 2003, and the Cheney quote was in Sept 2003. Is Wilson lying to Fitzgerald about government procedure? Unlikely.”

    You’re missing two points. First, just because normally things are done that way, doesn’t mean it actually happened that way. This is obvious, and it’s odd that you miss it.

    Second, even if Cheney was advised on the results of Wilson’s trip, there’s no evidence that Cheney *knew* that. For all we know, Cheney was simply told, “we found out that the documents are, indeed, forgeries.” If that is what he is told, how could he know this is based on what Wilson did? Yes, he could have asked, but administration officials are briefed on lots of information, all the time, and rarely bother to find out where the information came from, because there’s just too much of it.

    I won’t respond to the rest of your post, because it is all based on the notion that Cheney said he didn’t know, in September 2003, who Wilson was. And Cheney, as best I can tell, never said anything of the sort.

  • because it is all based on the notion that Cheney said he didn’t know, in September 2003, who Wilson was. And Cheney, as best I can tell, never said anything of the sort.

    um, I no longer what you’re trying to say or what point you’re trying to make. what’s you’re point??

    You originally asked: “I don’t know Joe Wilson. I’ve never met Joe Wilson.” Is this a lie? If so, according to what?

    And that is what I was trying to respond to. I guess we’re interpreting the same phrase in different ways? But why would Cheney say he didn’t know him personally when that wasn’t relevant to what was asked? So to me those two sentences say different things. (and sorry I have a job to do and so didn’t go into the whole things happening different than procedure)

    But then you’re parsing everyone’s words (and have enough time to do so) so why should I be surprised that you can’t be satisfied.

    I think the larger point is that words can be interpreted different ways, and until you understand that then you won’t understand why we think he’s lying. I’m sure you’ll say you do understand and come up with some kind of smart answer.

  • I’m a Democrat, but we have no real evidence here, we can’t contend Cheaney truly lied about what he said, if he says he doesn’t know Joe Wilson or who he is, he could claim he hasn’t met him before.

    There’s no grounds.

  • Whether this just applies to Dems is up to the Dems. Let’s show some spunk and nail the Neocons to the wall!

  • Pudge,

    You need to do some research on the tubes. You clearly don’t know what you are talking about. There was a 3 page report in the NY TImes on or about the Sunday following Powell’s speech to the UN. 1 CIA anaylist (we will call him the Lone Ranger) thought the tubes were suitable for nuclear weapons production. That anaylist was not an expert in nuclear weapon production. Other anaylists disagreed and consulted the experts in nuclear weapon production at the Livermore and Oak Ridge labs, who also disagreed with the Lone Ranger. Given a choice between experts and a non-expert, the Bushies went with the non-expert. Again, why? Incompetance? Personally I doubt it (though you may believe that). More likely it shows intent to deceive. You said you were dismayed by their reliance on the imminent threat of WMD. Answer honestly: isn’t because you didn’t believe them?

    The fact that there are shelves of books by people who believe in Aliens at Roswell is not relevant to whether John Dean’s or David Corn’s books are documented and accurate. Since you are not willing to address their accuracy I assume you concede the point.

    The fact the President Clinton (or any other Democratic Politician for that matter) lied or didn’t lie is not relevant to whether Bush and Cheney lied.

    Unless you were one of the CIA officers who have come forward, your assertions are not evidence (you lack 1st hand knowledge). Again, it was documented in main stream papers, including the NY Times and the Washington Post, that CIA officers felt pressured to give Cheney the answers Cheney wanted. That is the publicaly known evidence. If you want to refute it, you need to find a CIA officer who was there (1st hand knowledge), who would testify otherwise. Good Luck.

    I know it is tough for you to swallow, but the evidence strongly suggests Bush and Cheney lied. You need to ask yourself as a member of the GOP and as an American citizen, are you going to tolerate being lied to about the existence of WMD’s as a cause for war? Maybe Bush and Cheney playing you for a fool is acceptable; it isn’t to me.

    Without WMD’s there was no imminent threat, a point you have already conceded. Without the imminent threat, the public would not have accepted the Bush rationale for war. The reverse domino theory you espouse is even sillier than the original domino theory. Sorry Pudge, I am not trying to bust your chops, just laying it out for you.

  • Brian:

    You originally asked: “I don’t know Joe Wilson. I’ve never met Joe Wilson.” Is this a lie? If so, according to what?

    And that is what I was trying to respond to. I guess we’re interpreting the same phrase in different ways?

    Apparently. I interpret it to mean he does not know him and never met him. You interpret it to mean he doesn’t know who he is, which is silly, first because it’s not what he said, and second because it was big news at the time and Cheney obviously knew from the context of the discussion that Wilson had gone to Niger.

    But why would Cheney say he didn’t know him personally when that wasn’t relevant to what was asked?

    It was relevant. A big part of the discussion was whether Cheney’s office sent him, or someone else did, and further whether he reported to Cheney. And Cheney was saying he didn’t know him, and didn’t meet him.

  • molly bloom:

    You need to do some research on the tubes. You clearly don’t know what you are talking about.

    Actually, I clearly do.

    1 CIA anaylist (we will call him the Lone Ranger) thought the tubes were suitable for nuclear weapons production. That anaylist was not an expert in nuclear weapon production. Other anaylists disagreed and consulted the experts in nuclear weapon production at the Livermore and Oak Ridge labs, who also disagreed with the Lone Ranger. Given a choice between experts and a non-expert, the Bushies went with the non-expert.

    You need to do research in how Powell’s presentation was conducted, because clearly you don’t know what you are talking about. :p

    No doubt there was disagreement within the CIA; so what? At the end of the day, this was not a single analyst, this was the leadership of the CIA, including Tenet himself, signing off on Powell’s entire presentation. Period. And Tenet sat right behind Powell the whole time at the UN, just in case there needed to be clarifications.

    As was just rececntly reported by CNN: Wilkerson and Powell spent four days and nights in a CIA conference room with then-Director George Tenet and other top officials trying to ensure the accuracy of the presentation, [Powell aide Lawrence] Wilkerson says.

    Not that this is new. Woodward reported it in his book, and it’s been reported elsewhere many times: Tenet and the CIA directly signed off on everything Powell presented to the UN.

    The fact that there are shelves of books by people who believe in Aliens at Roswell is not relevant to whether John Dean’s or David Corn’s books are documented and accurate.

    Yes, it is not. But you were not appealing to their accuracy, but their existence.

    The fact the President Clinton (or any other Democratic Politician for that matter) lied or didn’t lie is not relevant to whether Bush and Cheney lied.

    Neither is the fact that Bush or Cheney lied about some things, evidence that something else they said is a lie. But that’s what you were saying.

    Unless you were one of the CIA officers who have come forward, your assertions are not evidence (you lack 1st hand knowledge). Again, it was documented in main stream papers, including the NY Times and the Washington Post, that CIA officers felt pressured to give Cheney the answers Cheney wanted.

    I think I already made this perfectly clear: there is nothing remotely wrong with pressuring people to give you answers you want, especially when — as in this case — it is to support the claim the CIA itself is making.

    The only problem is when the pressure is to *falsify* the answers. And there is *no evidence* that there was any such pressure. Saying you “felt” pressure is not evidence. You have to actually have a quote, a document, something, anything, that shows you were actually encouraged to falsify the answers. And no such thing has been provided by anyone. Not even a unsubstantiated quote. Just a “feeling.” It’s total rubbish.

    You’re the one here making unwarranted assertions without firsthand knowledge. I claim we don’t have evidence sufficient to claim there was pressure to falsify answers. You assert that this pressure did exist, but you don’t have any real evidence to prove it, just “feelings.”

    That is the publicaly known evidence. If you want to refute it, you need to find a CIA officer who was there (1st hand knowledge), who would testify otherwise. Good Luck.

    Many actually have stated publicly that there was no pressure of any kind to falsify evidence. But even if they did not, so what? Why should I need to bring up counterevidence to what is, in the first place, a meaningless claim about “feelings”?

    Without WMD’s there was no imminent threat, a point you have already conceded.

    No, I didn’t. I said there was no imminent threat of a direct assault by Hussein using WMD. But it constituted other imminent threats and existing assaults. I favored the invasion because of the imminent and existing dangers posed by the Hussein regime. I did not believe those dangers included WMD.

    Without the imminent threat, the public would not have accepted the Bush rationale for war.

    I disagree entirely. We cannot know for sure, of course, and I do agree that we should have found out.

  • You need to do some research on the tubes. You clearly don’t know what you are talking about.
    Actually, I clearly do.

    1 CIA anaylist (we will call him the Lone Ranger) thought the tubes were suitable for nuclear weapons production. That anaylist was not an expert in nuclear weapon production. Other anaylists disagreed and consulted the experts in nuclear weapon production at the Livermore and Oak Ridge labs, who also disagreed with the Lone Ranger. Given a choice between experts and a non-expert, the Bushies went with the non-expert.
    You need to do research in how Powell’s presentation was conducted, because clearly you don’t know what you are talking about. :p

    How Powell Conducted his presentation is not relevant to the material that went into the presentation.

    I stand by my original statement regarding the NY Times Article. The article quite clearly stated the tube theory was a minority opinion and my memory my be fogged on this point, but I recall it coming down to one analyst. Regardless of the actual number, it was the minority opinion and it was an opinion of a person or people who were not experts in that field. The majority of analysts disagreed and went to experts in that field at Oak Ridge and Livermore who concurred that the tubes were not for nuclear weapons.

    No doubt there was disagreement within the CIA; so what?

    HUH?!!! Do you normally, when given a choice of opinions take the one from the person or persons who are not experts in the field over the experts in the field?

    Get real!

    The fact that there are shelves of books by people who believe in Aliens at Roswell is not relevant to whether John Dean’s or David Corn’s books are documented and accurate.
    Yes, it is not. But you were not appealing to their accuracy, but their existence.

    That’s factually incorrect, I was pointing out that Bush and Cheney’s lies were accurately documented by others, a point you have yet to refute.

    The fact the President Clinton (or any other Democratic Politician for that matter) lied or didn’t lie is not relevant to whether Bush and Cheney lied.
    Neither is the fact that Bush or Cheney lied about some things, evidence that something else they said is a lie. But that’s what you were saying.

    Actually the truthfulness of a witness is always at issue and germane and subject to attack. Thus Bush and Cheney’s reputation for truthfulness is germane.

    Unless you were one of the CIA officers who have come forward, your assertions are not evidence (you lack 1st hand knowledge). Again, it was documented in main stream papers, including the NY Times and the Washington Post, that CIA officers felt pressured to give Cheney the answers Cheney wanted.
    I think I already made this perfectly clear: there is nothing remotely wrong with pressuring people to give you answers you want, especially when — as in this case — it is to support the claim the CIA itself is making.
    The only problem is when the pressure is to *falsify* the answers. And there is *no evidence* that there was any such pressure. Saying you “felt” pressure is not evidence. You have to actually have a quote, a document, something, anything, that shows you were actually encouraged to falsify the answers. And no such thing has been provided by anyone. Not even a unsubstantiated quote. Just a “feeling.” It’s total rubbish.

    Actually no it is not. They would be allowed to testify as to the conversations and the effect on the them (the testifying CIA official). It would be up to the trier of fact to determine who to believe. Obviously, if you were a part of that jury, you would start off biased in favor of Cheney and Libby.

    Without WMD’s there was no imminent threat, a point you have already conceded.
    No, I didn’t. I said there was no imminent threat of a direct assault by Hussein using WMD. But it constituted other imminent threats and existing assaults. I favored the invasion because of the imminent and existing dangers posed by the Hussein regime. I did not believe those dangers included WMD.

    Your contradicting yourself. Either is was an imminent threat or it wasn’t.

    Without the imminent threat, the public would not have accepted the Bush rationale for war.
    I disagree entirely. We cannot know for sure, of course, and I do agree that we should have found out

    Your note being clear here. Are you disagreeing with the fact that public would not have accepted Bush’s rationale for war, or are you reasserting your position that you favored the war whether or not Saddam had WMD’s?

    If the former, your quite clearly wrong and certainly the Bushies believed the public never would accept the war without the imminent threat rationale.

    If the latter, your position would be the minority, both then and now.

  • pudge, it’s probably too late now, but just in case: no, you still only get a B+.

    let’s start with misrepresentation: wilson’s op-ed was not an attack on the 16 words, despite how you present it. It was a discussion over whether intel had been twisted by the bush administration.

    that out of the way, your initial comment on the supposed niger contact was (forgive me for my techy illiteracy – don’t kow how to use the tags::

    but the CIA could not say the information was wrong, because they did not know it was wrong (and to this day, we don’t know it was wrong).

    and i say, no, that’s a misrepresentation, because the duelfur report tells us this:

    Iraq did not possess a nuclear device, nor had it tried to reconstitute a capability to produce nuclear weapons after 1991.

    ISG has uncovered no information to support allegations of Iraqi pursuit of uranium from abroad in the post-Operation Desert Storm era.

    (snip)

    ISG has not found evidence to show that Iraq sought uranium from abroad after 1991 or renewed indigenous production of such material—activities that we believe would have constituted an Iraqi effort to reconstitute a nuclear weapons program. As part of its investigation, ISG sought information from prominent figures such as Ja’far Diya’ Ja’far—the head of the pre-1991 nuclear weapons program.

    According to Ja’far, the Iraqi government did not purchase uranium from abroad following its acquisition of yellowcake from Niger in 1981. However, Iraq also purchased uranium dioxide from Brazil in 1982. Iraq declared neither the Brazilian purchase nor one of the Niger purchases to the IAEA—demonstrating that the Iraqi Regime was willing to pursue uranium illicitly.

    Regarding specific allegations of uranium pursuits from Niger, Ja’far claims that after 1998 Iraq had only two contacts with Niamey—neither of which involved uranium. Ja’far acknowledged that Iraq’s Ambassador to the Holy See traveled to Niamey to invite the President of Niger to visit Iraq. He indicated that Baghdad hoped that the Nigerian President would agree to the visit as he had visited Libya despite sanctions being levied on Tripoli. Former Iraqi Ambassador to the Holy See Wissam Zahawie has publicly provided a similar account.

    Ja’far claims a second contact between Iraq and Niger occurred when a Nigerian minister visited Baghdad around 2001 to request assistance in obtaining petroleum products to alleviate Niger’s economic problems. During the negotiations for this contract, the Nigerians did not offer any kind of payment or other quid pro quo, including offering to provide Iraq with uranium ore, other than cash in exchange for petroleum.

    ISG recovered a copy of a crude oil contract dated 26 June 2001 that, although unsigned, appears to support this arrangement.

    So far, ISG has found only one offer of uranium to Baghdad since 1991—an approach Iraq appears to have turned down. In mid-May 2003, an ISG team found an Iraqi Embassy document in the Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) headquarters related to an offer to sell yellowcake to Iraq. The document reveals that a Ugandan businessman approached the Iraqis with an offer to sell uranium, reportedly from the Congo. The Iraqi Embassy in Nairobi—in reporting this matter back to Baghdad on 20 May 2001—indicated it told the Ugandan that Iraq does not deal with these materials, explained the circumstances of sanctions, and said that Baghdad was not concerned about these matters right now. Figure 1 is the translation of this document.

    So, it is a misrepresentation to say that to this day, we don’t know, because we do.

    Now, i agree that this isn’t relevant to the state of intel at the time, but you’re the one who brought up the issue of “to this day.”

    Now, to move on to British intel, the fact that the Butler report came out later is irrelevant – it speaks to how we know. It doesn’t speak to what the Brits knew, and what information the Brits provided to us, and the Butler Report tells us what the Brits knew and what information they provided to us, and it was about Niger.

    so, sorry about that one too.

    it does remain, at this time, unknown what the “second source” was, which is why i point out the caginess of their remarks. A “second source” that merely repeats the same false information isn’t really advancing anything, is it? But outsourcing American intel analysis to the Brits on a matter of whether America is going to war is simply not on (as you effectively concede).

    (Quick side note: it is a misrepresentation to say that Wilson said the 16 words were a “lie.” he did not say that in his op-ed; i don’t know whether he’s ever said that.)

    Now, as for the fact sheet, what we have to believe in your worldview is that the state department put out an irrelevant fact sheet. it is to laugh: of course the reference was to Niger.

    Now, as for your notion that just ’cause Joe Wilson says so: it wasn’t just Joe Wilson. It was also the ambassador to Niger and a Marine general who said so, and it was a good number of people on the ground running the mining operation who told Joe Wilson so. We’re not talking about whether Iraq could sneak into the mine in the dark of night and steal some uranium: we’re talking about whether they could buy some, complete with a signed agreement. And the answer to that, from every source that looked at it, including Wilson, is that they couldn’t.

    Now, all in all, you were doing pretty well up to here (which is why i originally gave you a B+), but sadly, in your follow-on, you then add a true howler:

    And all Bush said is that they *tried* to do so, as a means to express the intent of the Hussein regime to reconstitute their nuclear weapons program (which, I should add, the Duelfer report you previously cited unequivocally confirms).

    That, sadly, is completely wrong. Bush wasn’t just trying to express the “intent.” He was describing “an attempt to purchase,” which to have any meaning at all must incorporate such concepts as talking about uranium with someone who could sell it! In terms of the future, what the Duelfur report actually says (you might want to read it sometime):

    Nevertheless, after 1991, Saddam did express his intent to retain the intellectual capital developed during the Iraqi Nuclear Program. Senior Iraqis—several of them from the Regime’s inner circle—told ISG they assumed Saddam would restart a nuclear program once UN sanctions ended.

    So yes, he had a long-term desire to have nuclear weapons, like dozens of other dictators, but that is not what Bush was signalling with those words, and it’s not what the Bush administration (Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rice, Perle, Feith, and others included) were selling.

    Because in general you seem like a reasonable feller, and because you are being quite honest about your motivations for supporting the war, i’m not going to dock you an extra half-grade for that last error, though: you remain at a B+.

  • Your analysis of the Starr standard if applied to Cheney was discussed Wednesday morning on “The Bill Press Show” on Sirius–with full credit to CBR.

  • molly bloom: I stand by my original statement regarding the NY Times Article. The article quite clearly stated the tube theory was a minority opinion and my memory my be fogged on this point, but I recall it coming down to one analyst.

    Whatever you say about it, this fact remains: Tenet asserted its accuracy. He pushed for, and signed off on, its inclusion in Powell’s presentation. Label it however you wish, but this fact remains, and is overriding in importance.

    They would be allowed to testify as to the conversations and the effect on the them (the testifying CIA official).

    Yes, and their testimony would be: “no one actually directed me to falsify evidence or conclusions.” Down the line, everyone agrees with this. Go ahead, put them on the stand, and watch your case crumble away.

    Your contradicting yourself. Either is was an imminent threat or it wasn’t.

    No, I am not contradicting myself. Why you think I am is boggling to me. In my opinion, there was an imminent threat, but it was unrelated to WMD. I don’t know how I could say this more clearly, nor do I see how this contradicts anything else I’ve said.

    Are you disagreeing with the fact that public would not have accepted Bush’s rationale for war

    That is not a fact. That is an opinion about something that never happened, which cannot be verified.

    If the former, your quite clearly wrong and certainly the Bushies believed the public never would accept the war without the imminent threat rationale.

    You are flatly wrong on both counts. First, as noted, it never happened, and we cannot verify the claim. I think the public certainly would have accepted it, if presented well. You disagree. Fine: neither of us can know for sure. For you to assert you can know for sure is, again, boggling. What sort of inhuman powers do you have that you could possibly consider this more than mere unsubstantiatable opinion?

    “Get real,” indeed.

    Second, there’s no evidence the administration thought the public would not accept the war without the appeal to WMD. However, what *is* clear is that a. they all agreed that WMD was a reasonable rationale (unlike the other rationales, on which there was significant disagreement), and b. they all thought it was the most appealing rationale to “sell” on. That doesn’t mean they thought they could not “sell” the war without it, only that they thought it was the best way to do it.

  • howard: wilson’s op-ed was not an attack on the 16 words, despite how you present it. It was a discussion over whether intel had been twisted by the bush administration.

    Yes, whether it had been twisted *in regard to how it was used in the 16 words.*

    The lead of the article is, “Did the Bush administration manipulate intelligence about Saddam Hussein’s weapons programs to justify an invasion of Iraq?”

    And then the only example he gave of how intelligence was used was the 16 words (and the subsequent repeating by Cheney of the same information). Your distinction is laughable.

    ISG has not found evidence to show that Iraq sought uranium from abroad after 1991

    Yes, which is a damned far cry from what you claimed: that the Duelfer report said “there was no seeking of uranium.” It didn’t say that, at all. It said it could uncover no evidence of it, not that it didn’t happen. Thanks for proving me right, and you wrong, because that’s precisely what you just did.

    On the other hand, we have the Butler report, which came out after the Duelfer report, asserts:

    There was further and separate intelligence that in 1999 the Iraqi regime had also made inquiries about the purchase of uranium ore in the Democratic Republic of Congo. In this case, there was some evidence that by 2002 an agreement for a sale had been reached. …

    We conclude that, on the basis of the intelligence assessments at the time, covering both Niger and the Democratic Republic of Congo, the statements on Iraqi attempts to buy uranium from Africa in the Government’s dossier, and by the Prime Minister in the House of Commons, were well-founded. By extension, we conclude also that the statement in President Bush’s State of the Union Address of 28 January 2003 that: “The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa” was well-founded. …

    From our examination of the intelligence and other material on Iraqi attempts to buy uranium from Africa, we have concluded that:
    a. It is accepted by all parties that Iraqi officials visited Niger in 1999.
    b. The British Government had intelligence from several different sources indicating that this visit was for the purpose of acquiring uranium. Since uranium constitutes almost three-quarters of Niger’s exports, the intelligence was credible.
    c. The evidence was not conclusive that Iraq actually purchased, as opposed to having sought, uranium and the British Government did not claim this.
    d. The forged documents were not available to the British Government at the time its assessment was made, and so the fact of the forgery does not undermine it.

    So, it is a misrepresentation to say that to this day, we don’t know, because we do.

    No, we don’t. You’re wrong.

    the Butler Report tells us what the Brits knew and what information they provided to us, and it was about Niger.

    As shown above, no, you are wrong. It was about Niger and Congo.

    it does remain, at this time, unknown what the “second source” was, which is why i point out the caginess of their remarks. A “second source” that merely repeats the same false information isn’t really advancing anything, is it?

    You have it wrong on two points. First, the Butler report (again, as shown above) asserts several sources of information, not merely a single “second” source. Second, and more importantly, all of them preceded the known existence of the forged documents, while you seem to imply it happened the other way around.

    Now, as for the fact sheet, what we have to believe in your worldview is that the state department put out an irrelevant fact sheet. it is to laugh: of course the reference was to Niger.

    Funny you say that, since the Butler report shows that it was about the Congo, too. I don’t know why this is funny to you … maybe because you simply didn’t know that another nation was involved in the intelligence reports from the British?

    we’re talking about whether they could buy some, complete with a signed agreement

    No, we are not talking about that at all. We are talking about whether Iraq *sought* uranium, irrespective of whether it could be provided. This is a tangent.

    Bush wasn’t just trying to express the “intent.” He was describing “an attempt to purchase,” which to have any meaning at all must incorporate such concepts as talking about uranium with someone who could sell it!

    That’s false. The very fact that they are trying to obtain it — if true — regardless of their ability to get it is evidence of their intentions.

    That’s how I took it when I heard it: not that they would be able to obtain it, but that they were attempting to do so, which spoke to their intent to restart their WMD programs.

    So yes, he had a long-term desire to have nuclear weapons, like dozens of other dictators, but that is not what Bush was signalling with those words, and it’s not what the Bush administration (Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rice, Perle, Feith, and others included) were selling.

    Right. They were “selling” the notion that Hussein was actively engaged, in some way, in preparing to restart his nuclear weapons program. And the Butler report maintains this is “well-founded.”

    Because in general you seem like a reasonable feller, and because you are being quite honest about your motivations for supporting the war, i’m not going to dock you an extra half-grade for that last error, though: you remain at a B+.

    Because you didn’t know what the Butler report actually said — a significant error that permeates the rest of your analysis — I can’t be so generous for your grade, which will have to be a C+.

  • The Tubes
    Tenet may have been originally appointed by President Clinton, but he quite clearly signed on early with the Bushies. To keep inanley report that Tenet signed off on it, only proves my point that the Bushies chose the minority opinion of a non-expert. Tenet was not an expert in nuclear production either. What you are rapily reduced to- it wasn’t personally Bush’s fault. Which only goes to show, the buck never stops with Dubya in this administration. It doesn’t change the fact that they (with Tenet’s help, if you insist) chose the minority non-expert opinion over the majority expert opinion.

    Saddam was quite clearly not an imminent threat to the US.
    1st there were no WMD’s and there wasn’t much credible evidence that there was.
    As you undoubtedly know, chemical and biological degrade and his stocks were degraded.
    2ndly his payments to suicide bomobers in Isreal, at best make him a threat to Isreal, but not to the US. Yes he was a bad man. He wan’t an imminent threat to the USA. As you wish, I’ll give you your point that YOU thought he was an imminent threat despite not haveing WMD’s. However, that doesn’t say much about your ability to judge imminet threats. Keep your day job.

    Cheney’s demand to produce evidence
    I’m not so sure that the mere cross examination of “Did they or did they not demand you falsify the evidence or conculsiions” would be as compelling as you think. Many factors would be going into the jury’s decision. If the entire trial consisted of that one direct and cross and possible re-direct and re-cross, you might be right. But a trial would include more than that.

    CIA officials don’t make a practice of running to the media wiith leaks, The fact they felt compelled to do so, says a lot (and not that they were anti Bush, though I am sure you will try to spin it as such).

    Public Opinion

    The evidence shows that the Bushies (and their conservative MSM allies) presented a case for war, such that the public for years after the invasion of Iraq thought Iraq had a connection with 9-11. That, of course, was not true. The evidence is that the Bushies sold the War with innuendo of Mushroom Clouds false or incompetent aluminun tubes for nuclear weapons analysis, and 16 words about Niger,,,er,.. Africa… from the CIA …er… the Brits, (“yeah that’s it, Africa and the Brits” as the old SNL skit would say).

    Its reasonable to conclude the Bushies played up the scant evidence, because they didn’t think the public would be for an invasion of Iraq, unless there was an imminent threat of WMD.

    Conclusion
    We know Bush is quoted as saying “Fuck Saddam, were taking him out long before the Iraq war. We know that the PNAC gang was urging President Clinton to invade Iraq as early as 1998 and, of course, many of those armchair warriors ended up in the Bush administration. We know that right after 9-11, Rummy was saying there were better targets in Iraq and that Bush demanded to know if there was evidence of Iraq’s complicty in 9-11 (perfectly reasonable to find out- not reasonable, after finding our there was no connection to continuely make public inneuendos that there was). We know from the DSM, that our closests allies believed the decision was already made to invade Iraq. It is suspected, though not known, that the British Intel on yellowcake was from the same source as the CIA’s. We know the Bushies officially have backed away from either source. (BTW, you do know, Iraq had the raw material already, they didn’t need to get any from Niger or anywhere else. What they lacked was a way to refine it. Curiousor and Curiousor as Alice would say).

    As discussed above, we know that they had no qualms about playing up weak Nuclear weapon claims.

    The physical and direct and circumstanial evidence is strong: The Bushies manipulated the evidence to convice the public that Iraq was a direct imminet threat on the verge of going nuclear and somehow responsible for 9-11. They did so continously, even after the claims were shown to be dubious at best or downright fraudulent. They did so apparantly to convince the public of the need to go to war with Iraq. If I am right, I will leave it to you to decide if this is more important than a stained blue dress.

  • The oath that Cheney took is the same oath that members of Congress and military officers take. It reads like this:

    I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.

    He could be nailed on the “support and defend” section many times, as well as “faithfullu discharge”.

  • molly boloom: To keep inanley report that Tenet signed off on it, only proves my point that the Bushies chose the minority opinion of a non-expert. Tenet was not an expert in nuclear production either.

    OK, now you’re just being totally daffy. It wasn’t Tenet’s opinion, it was Tenet’s opinion of the available opinions. That is — as the Director — his job, and no one else’s. The President doesn’t — and can’t — closely analyze who in the CIA said what, and what each person’s qualifications are. That’s the Director’s job.

    What you are rapily reduced to- it wasn’t personally Bush’s fault.

    No. Bush should have been more skeptical of the evidence presented, But you’re claiming the White House fudged the evidence, and that’s just false. They took the best evidence they had from the people whose job it was to give it to them (again, except for the uranium/Africa claim, which is precisely why they later said they were wrong to include it).

    Which only goes to show, the buck never stops with Dubya in this administration.

    Yes, by putting words in my mouth and arguing a straw man, you can make that case. Good for you?

    I never intended to say Bush wasn’t responsible for anything. I was arguing against your claim that he cherry-picked evidence, when the facts clearly show that the main case for war presented to the UN was the direct result of close consultation with and approval by the Director of the CIA.

    Saddam was quite clearly not an imminent threat to the US.

    Since he was, on a weekly basis, attacking U.S. troops, the facts show you to be clearly wrong. In regard to WMD, the facts show he most likely was not an imminent threat (although despite your claim that there were no WMD, there still remains the possibility there were), but in regard to political threats, and conventional military threats, we know he did pose an existing threat.

    2ndly his payments to suicide bomobers in Isreal, at best make him a threat to Isreal, but not to the US.

    A threat to Israel is a de facto threat to the U.S., because of our alliance with and support of Israel. Do you not recall that Bin Laden said he attacked us because of our ties to Israel?

    And similarly, as long as Hussein was in power, we would have troops in Saudi Arabia. Again, Bin Laden mentioned this as a reason to attack the U.S.

    And you forgot to mention the fact that Hussein directly attacked U.S. troops on a weekly basis for years.

    I’m not so sure that the mere cross examination of “Did they or did they not demand you falsify the evidence or conculsiions” would be as compelling as you think. Many factors would be going into the jury’s decision. If the entire trial consisted of that one direct and cross and possible re-direct and re-cross, you might be right. But a trial would include more than that.

    Whatever. The fact remains there is NOT ONE BIT OF EVIDENCE OF ANY KIND that anyone asked anyone else to fabricate evidence or conclusions, except for how people “felt” when they were told things that, by their own admission, didn’t actually amount to such demands.

    The evidence shows that the Bushies (and their conservative MSM allies) presented a case for war, such that the public for years after the invasion of Iraq thought Iraq had a connection with 9-11. That, of course, was not true.

    It’s also not true that anyone stated or implied that Iraq had a direct connection to 9/11, except to quote the Czech intelligence report that claimed Atta met with Iraqis in Prague, which for all we know is actually true.

    What Bush did often was to claim that the war on terror and the war in Iraq are linked, but he never did so in a way to make it seem Iraq was directly connected to 9/11. You can’t produce a quote to the contrary. The best you can do is to show that he juxtaposed the two very often, but so what? They should be juxtaposed: they are part of the same problem, and the same larger conflict.

    and 16 words about Niger,,,er,.. Africa… from the CIA …er… the Brits, (“yeah that’s it, Africa and the Brits” as the old SNL skit would say).

    Whatever. The Butler Report states conclusively that the “16 words” were well-founded. *shrug*

    Its reasonable to conclude the Bushies played up the scant evidence, because they didn’t think the public would be for an invasion of Iraq, unless there was an imminent threat of WMD.

    No, it is not at all reasonable to conclude this, for the reasons I previously stated, which you did not address.

    We know Bush is quoted as saying “Fuck Saddam, were taking him out long before the Iraq war.

    Yes, and good for him.

    We know that the PNAC gang was urging President Clinton to invade Iraq as early as 1998

    And good for them, too.

    and, of course, many of those armchair warriors ended up in the Bush administration.

    Good for us all.

    We know that right after 9-11, Rummy was saying there were better targets in Iraq

    Smart man, that Rummy.

    and that Bush demanded to know if there was evidence of Iraq’s complicty in 9-11 (perfectly reasonable to find out- not reasonable, after finding our there was no connection to continuely make public inneuendos that there was).

    No such innuendo was ever made by Bush.

    We know from the DSM, that our closests allies believed the decision was already made to invade Iraq.

    No. We know *one person* amongst our allies believed that. However, thank you for phrasing it that way, because many people erroneously state that the DSM proves the decision was already made, when in fact it only proves someone thought that. The DSM doesn’t tell us why they thought that, so it’s not very useful or interesting.

    It is suspected, though not known, that the British Intel on yellowcake was from the same source as the CIA’s.

    No. You’re simply wrong. It is known that this is entirely false. The Butler Report shows conclusively that the British intel was reported before the CIA’s source (the forged documents) were ever in British hands, so it is not possible for the British intel to have been based on it.

    We know the Bushies officially have backed away from either source.

    That’s misleading. The White Hous never did anything to say the British intel was bad. They were simply saying that because the CIA could not confirm it, that it should not have been in the State of the Union address. That says nothing about the intelligence itself.

    The Bushies manipulated the evidence

    You’ve provided no evidence to support this claim.

  • Ken Starr should be prosecuted and investigated.
    Cheney MUST be impeached to demonstrate to world history that
    4000 Americans KIlled in Action are worse than a blow job.
    The Coast Guard and National Guard never signed up for this detail,
    they must be honored.
    These actions must come from us, the privatte sector,
    for this truly is OUR country and we must not allow these whores to profane it.
    thank you, merry kwanzmukah.

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