There are fissures, but are they deep?

The last several days, the political environment for Democrats in Nevada has been, shall we say, a little noxious. I’m inclined to think we’re pretty far from last damage and burnt bridges, but I also understand feeling a little uncomfortable about the current trajectory.

Slate’s John Dickerson, analyzing yesterday’s results, noted:

Bill Clinton was so angry because it got ugly at the end in Nevada. Democrats may have cooled down their flash war over race and gender earlier this week, but by the time the vote took place Saturday, each of the two top campaigns was flinging some very ugly charges about the other. Bill Clinton accused the powerful Nevada culinary union of suppressing voters, claiming he’d witnessed it first hand. Obama’s campaign manager in turn threw out some very charged coded language about efforts by the Clinton campaign to suppress the vote. “It is a sad day when Democrats start trying to suppress the vote of other Democrats,” he said of push polls, robo-calls, and what he called “old-style say anything or do anything to win” Clinton politics.

Commence the hand-wringing. How do you put a party back together when Obama claims that Clinton wins only by winning ugly? Historically, political parties find ways to put themselves back together, but Clinton risks looking like a hope killer if Obama’s charges that she’s succeeded unfairly start to stick. In addition to charges by Obama aides, the candidate himself was accusing Clinton of distorting his record and saying anything to get elected in the final hours of campaigning. Clinton’s negatives are already high enough. This prospect of Clinton commanding a party stitched together like Frankenstein may at some point cause people to resist supporting her even if their doubts about Obama increase.

I see Dickerson’s point, but isn’t this a bit hyperbolic? Dems are divided over their favorite presidential candidate, but aren’t we pretty far from a party “stitched together” like Frankenstein’s monster? The core elements of the party are still very much in place; Dems aren’t even close to experiencing the kind of ideological fissures the Republicans are facing; and Dems are well aware that the political landscape in 2008 gives them an inherent advantage.

Any party in midst of a competitive primary is going to appear at least a little divided, but we’re pretty far the point at which one of the top-tier candidates can’t lead the party in November, aren’t we?

This is not to say the past couple of weeks have been pleasant; they haven’t. Two weeks ago, there was an exceedingly distasteful race-based dispute between Clinton and Obama. The candidates seemed to take control of the situation before matters spiraled completely out of control.

This past week, though, merely saw one series of ugly back-and-forth attacks replaced with another. The Clinton campaign, for example, issued a mailing to Nevada Dems hitting Obama on taxes with a message that could have been written by the Republican National Committee (it was also factually wrong). There was a lawsuit to eliminate agreed-upon Democratic precincts in Nevada. Obama comments about Reagan and the “party of ideas” were intentionally misconstrued to mislead voters. Mysterious robo-calls parroted Rush Limbaugh rhetoric about “Barack Hussein Obama.”

Yesterday afternoon was especially unpleasant, with Bill Clinton personally claiming to have seen first-hand instances of voter intimidation. The Obama campaign not only denied the charge, officials fired back with accusations of Clinton-backed voter-suppression efforts.

The Iowa caucuses were just 17 days ago, and for all the overused cliches about the candidates “taking the gloves off,” the race was actually quite positive and aboveboard until the Hawkeye State’s results came in. Ever since, it’s been considerably more painful.

But if we step back, we see that this isn’t that unusual. In 2004, at least until the Kerry snowball became unstoppable, there was a heated contest between Kerry, Dean, Edwards, Clark, and Gephardt. At the time, I think we all heard plenty of supporters of each candidate saying they couldn’t possibly tolerate rivals winning the nomination. If I had a nickel for every Dean supporter who vowed to stay home if Kerry won the nomination, I’d be quite wealthy — but eventually, they returned to the fray. People usually do.

In 1992, the race between Clinton, Brown, Kerrey, and Tsongas grew quite contentious. In 1988, the contest between Dukakis, Gore, Jackson, Simon, and Gephardt was plenty heated at times. Mondale/Hart was no walk in the park in ’84. Carter/Kennedy was really ugly in ’80. You get the point.

I know there are plenty of Dems — I suspect commenters will happily help prove this point — who currently believe they couldn’t possibly vote for (fill in the blank with current Democratic candidate’s name) in November. He/She is just too much to bear. If he/she wins the nomination, you’ll just stay home, regardless of the consequences.

Dickerson’s piece suggests the party is headed for the kind of division that makes post-primary reconciliation very difficult. I really doubt it. The top three candidates agree on almost everything, they’ve each presented a progressive platform, and they each lead Republican candidates in hypothetical general-election match-ups.

The campaign has taken a few ugly turns, but this is hardly a recipe for a splintered, unrecoverable Democratic Party.

Charge and Counter Charges of the Light Brigade. The first dustup bothered me, now I’m resigned to politics as usual. They’re still not as dirty as the Republicans by a long-shot, but the Clintons are just now getting started. They’re like kids who are abused at home and come out on the playground and just can’t play well with others.

  • This is a battle for the “heart & soul” of the Democratic Party, so it will be hot: do we redeem the Clinton Presidency I loved, or recognize Clinton was right for the time and move into the next stage?

    I salivate at the thought of seeing the scandal-mongering press of the 90s jump the shark when they try to capture lightning in a bottle again after 7 years of ignoring Bush reality. On the other hand, as much of a Clinton defender as I am, I despise all that he wrought: centrist “liberal” triangulators.

    So… it’s contentious for them, but not so much for me. I’m fine either way.

  • As an Obama supporter, I have watched this campaign try to bring civility back into our political process, only to be met with the “slash and burn” politics of old from the Clinton campaign. The distortion of Senator Obama’s words and record in mailing anfter mailing from iowa to NH and NV. Add to that the dismissive and condescending view of his candidacy by the former president of the United States and “attack dog in chief”, and I think you are extremely optimistic in suggesting that all will be forgvien in November. Be prepared to watch record “low” turnout come November from not just African Americans, but from large numbers of people who are disgusted by the Clinton’s Rovian, win at all costs approach to this campaign.

  • I don’t know if I’m proving your point or disputing it, Steve Benen, but the day Clinton becomes the nominee is the day I re-register as an Independent. I’m a Democrat insofar as I believe the Dems represent my core values. For all the talk about the similar platforms, I cannot honestly say Clinton represents my values in the least. The opposite is true.

    Much has been said of how unfairly the Clintons have been tarred as divisive, how Hillary’s high negatives are not the product of her own doing, etc etc. Well, for this Democrat at least, that is not true at all. In mid-2006, my 3 favorites for the Dem nomination were Feingold, Obama, Clinton, in that order. I still like Feingold as much as I like Obama; they’re probably my two favorite pols right now. However, I now pretty much loathe Hillary. I also used to absolutely love Bill Clinton. Now, not so much, to put it lightly.

    I think the main thing to realize is that Obama has established himself as the leader of pretty much the entire left-leaning country under the age of 45. To the extent Democrats care about their future at all, alienating that group by dragging their leader’s name through the mud so a bunch of old, gray-haired nannies can elect “their gal” probably isn’t the brightest idea, IMO.

  • As an Edwards supporter who has been subjected to nothing but the Clinton-Obama show for far too long now, I think the Obama supporters are choosing not to see that their own candidate has contributed much to the negative atmosphere; there is no candidate who has not leveled charges, made accusations, twisted words or chosen to deliberately misinterpret what the others have said or done.

    It would be great if everyone were getting along, but they’re not. What is happening now is the molding of the eventual nominee – the one who will have taken the best of what all the others had to offer and incorporated it into one strong and winning platform – and all three of them believe themselves to be the one who can best represent the party.

    There is no killing going on – no killing of hopes, no killing of dreams, no killing of desire to kick the Republicans off the field and out of the game. Even if Edwards is not the nominee, I will still be voting for the last Democrat standing, because I know that whatever I dislike about Clinton and Obama, the advantages of having one of them in the Oval Office will be exponentially better than what happens if I don’t vote at all.

  • “… aren’t we pretty far from a party “stitched together” like Frankenstein’s monster?”

    Compared with 1948 prior to the Dixiecrat walkout, definitely.

    Now the GOP — McCain and Paul, Huckabee and Giuliani, not to mention the ghost of Nelson Rockefeller, Earl Warren, Barry Goldwater or even Ronald Reagan, “party of Lincoln” with its “southern strategy” — there’s a Frankenstein’s monster for you.

  • I’m afraid the point you are underestimating is that the divisions this time are not based on personal allegiances or slightly nuanced policy disagreements. Race and gender are far more deeply held passions. I recently heard a normally tolerant female friend of mine call Obama the n-word. She then stormed out of the room, I think more out of shame than outrage. But I can assure you that the more mysogeny she hears from Chris Matthews, Joe Scarborough, and others, the more it will entrench her view. Only a month ago, she would have voted for Obama over Clinton, and led get-out-the-vote campaigns. Now I’m not sure she would even vote.

  • This analysis might be true for those who are die hard Democrats who always vote Democratic. The problem for the Democrats is that there aren’t enough of them to guarantee a victory. Democrats won in 2006 due to obtaining the votes of independents and people who gave up on the Republicans.

    In November there is no doubt that should Hillary Clinton will get the bulk of the long time Democratic voters. What is questionable is whether the other new Democratic voters will turn out for her, or if many will stay home. This might not matter considering that the Republican vote will also be depressed from previous elections.

    Many Democrats are deluding themselves to think that the new Democratic voters were voting for the Democrats because they were suddenly supporters of the Democrats on all issues. Many were primarily voting against the Republicans because of what they have become. If Hillary Clinton continues with the type of campaign she is running, many will question if she is any better than George Bush and stay home, or perhaps vote third party.

    We have seen the Republicans move from a position where they quickly went from the dominant party to a weak party. I fear we are already seeing the seeds of a similar end to a Democratic majority before it has even taken hold. Democrats like Clinton who think they can govern with a 50% plus one majority are making exactly the same mistakes the Republicans have made.

  • Fractures?

    I’ve never seen a more consistently angry and focused thread in my life:

    http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0108/Bill_Clinton_claims_he_witnessed_voter_suppression.html

    Just skim the first 40 or so of the 500 posts to get the flavor…
    And heck… I didn’t even add one to that pyre.

    The Dems are indeed split and will stay split.
    This video captures the divide in a humorous way, although, to be fair to the demography, the woman on the left should be at least 30 years older:

    http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/002717.php

    The numbers coming out of Nevada, Michigan, and S. Carolina show a gaping gash.
    Of course after Hillary wins the nomination,
    Her and Bill will, slipping into the vernacular here: Kiss every black ass they can find.
    It will work somewhat.
    But… not as well as it has done in the past.
    My guess it they will lose at least 5% of the black vote to hostile apathy.

    Lastly, the youth vote.
    That’s all for Obama. He is really driving these huge turnouts in the primaries.
    The kids won’t come out to support Hillary in the general.
    Her and Bill are as dull as yesterday’s news:
    After two decades of Clinton Bush… WGAS!

  • Anne:

    As much as you’d like to demagogue those kook-aid-drinking Obama supporters, I have no blinders on about my candidate. I know he’s a politician who’s going to use distortions to gain advantages, practice hard politics, etc. However, there is simply no excuse for something like Clinton smiling happily on stage while Bob Johnson compared Obama to Sydney Pottier in Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner, and then never disassociating herself from that. Then defending his bullsh*t non-apology. Then lying about him apologizing. You can write off the “Obama is a Muslim” smears coming out of the Clinton camp. You can write off the Shaheen comments. You can write off the “black hipster friends” b/c of the anonymous sourcing. But that was probably the most egregious and disgusting instance of out-and-out race-baiting in the campaign. Politics ain’t beanbag, no, but it has to be better than that. Period.

    Trying to create some sort of moral equivalence here is just bullshit. Period. There is no moral equivalence. Misrepresenting someone’s tax plan is not the same as the stink that came out of the Clinton campaign post-Iowa. And I will never get behind them for that, again.

    It’s amazing to me that some can say that’s “just politics” and move on. It’s like saying the kids who hung a noose up on a tree were “just kids being kids”

  • It’s all been said before but… I’m a democratic leaning independent. If Hillary wins the nomination I will not stay home in November, I will vote republican and I absolutely don’t care which one. My opinion of her is that low.

  • “The campaign has taken a few ugly turns, but this is hardly a recipe for a splintered, unrecoverable Democratic Party.” — CB; “This is is a battle for the “heart & soul” of the Democratic Party…” — memekiller

    What I see is petty, self-centered “gottcha” accusations among candidates and campaigns that have little to do with party leadership or the kind of transformation that Democratic voter seek. Democratic voters are rightfully pissed over what has happened these past years, and I see almost no coalescing of the candidates around those concerns. No cohesive movement with clear goals has been created. Instead we are left with trusting that the simple replacement of an R by a D will make things right. Good luck with that.

    What’s that old African saying about when elephants fight, the grass suffers? Right now, I feel that the grass is being ignored — the suffering will come later.

    As Anne suggested the other day, the battle for the “heart and soul” of the democratic party will not be engaged until we start moving more progressives up through the ranks to displace those who just don’t understand the kind of change we want.

  • Democrats may have cooled down their flash war over race and gender earlier this week…

    The Democratic party never had much to offer, besides “race and gender” baiting, rich and poor baiting, loss of individual rights and freedom, mob rule, Socialism/Communism/Fascism, etc.

    In The Fall of Democracy, Alexander Tyler basically described where America is at today, i.e. “dependency”:

    A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship.

    The average age of the world’s great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage.

    The “public treasure” has been raided so often by the voters that it may be worthless in a few decades, and a trip back to “bondage” is on the horizon, IMO.

  • So, Michael, it’s okay when your candidate does it, but there are no excuses for anyone else? That’s a good one.

    As near as I can tell, the Obama supporters have reached near-cult mentality, which has blinded them to the truth that their guy is not all by himself on the high road. That’s not being a demagogue. Heck, he doesn’t need anyone to lie about his positions and plans – he does that himself.

    You seem to be the one excusing what one candidate does because it isn’t as bad as what another candidate is doing. I never said it was right, I merely acknowledged that they’re all doing it to one degree or another – and there have been many instances on this site where I have decried the lack of attention to actual issues, so maybe you ought to stop trying to make me out to have said something that I didn’t say.

    Do I have the power to make them all play nice? No, and neither do you.

  • I’m sure that when the dust settles the losers will graciously concede and offer their full support to the winner. At the very least, they’ll make a convincing show of it. That, plus time will heal the majority of the hurts.

    At the end of the day, even Hillary will be much more preferable than anything running with an R after their name.

  • Katie @11 –

    That you would vote Republican because you don’t “like” Clinton is absurd in the extreme. Does that mean that if this were the end of Bush’s first term, and he was running against Hillary, that you would have voted for him?

    Yeah, that makes sense.

    The only reason to vote Republican is if you think Republicans best represent your interests, at all levels. If you truly believe that Mitt Romney or John McCain can do that for you, go for it.

  • I think that as Democrats we need to remember that we failed to win a majority of the popular vote in 8 of the last 10 Presidental elections (exceptions are 2000 and 1976) Bill Clinton was elected twice without a majority thanks to an assist from Ross Perot in both elections. Our goal should be to expand the party and build a permanent majority the way that Franklin Roosevelt did. This is the premise of the Obama campaign to build a working majority by bringing young voters into the system and reaching out to independents and Reagan Democrats.
    Instead of congratulating Obama for efforts that are helping to build a new majority the Clintons are attacking him and twisting the meaning of his words. In so doing they are alienating the new young voters who voted for the first time and the independents who are coming to our caucuses and voting for our primary for the first time in a long time. These new voters are not automatic Democratic votes in the fall and my concern is that the Clintons will alienate these people now and if Hillary wins the nomination many of these votes are likely to just stay home or vote for the other side in November helping the Republicans to win. Look at all the Red State Democrats who have endorsed Obama (Tim Kaine, Janet Napolitano, Tim Johnson, Ben Nelson, Claire McCaskill). As Democrats we should be trying to expand our party and not shrink it by appealing only to the base. The base is not big enought to win in November and if we don’t expand it we will lose another election and be forced to watch in frustration from the outside for another 4 to 8 years.

  • I disagree with memekiller that this is a fight for the “heart and soul” of the Democratic party. Clinton v. Kucinich might create such a circumstance, but Clinton-Obama-Edwards are all similar in platform, and similar in background. They all come from the Senate, none are truly “new” (Edwards was on the ticket in 04, Obama has come up through the ranks in state elected office, HRC has been in the news for 25 years now). At most this may be a battle about the upside of being an “insider” versus the downside of being an insider (if any of them really qualify as outsiders, which I think is more a matter of positioning than reality). Even the age difference among them spans less than a full generation.

    The Republicans really do have a heart and soul problem. Their candidates represent very distinct ideological groups – it would be like the Dems having a pro-choice but anti-environmentalist candidate versus a pro-war but massively redistributionist on economics candidate. That is not at all what we have. Part of the reason the fights have been so petty is that there isn’t much of substance to fight about.

    I also think it is hard to support ROTF @ 9’s suggestion that “youth for Obama” are responsible for the record turnouts. Were all of the additional turnout for Obama, he would have won NH and the popular vote side of NV. He didn’t. Women who are highly motivated and inspired by a real opportunity to break the most visible glass ceiling are a big part, as are “traditional” Democrats who are completely sick of Bush and want to make it known.

    Which is why I disagree to some extent with Ron Chusid and others who say HRC will have trouble in the fall because she wont pull Independents. I do not think all of the Independents are coming out just for Obama – they, too, are showing that they are sick of BushCo. There was no Obama in 2006 and they came out, and thought they’d gotten a message across. BushCo didn’t listen. In 2008, the message will be delivered even more strongly.

    Finally, I disagree with the suggestion implied in several comments that where there is a generational difference in support, we should go with the youth vote because that is the “future” of the party. That is a wildly ego-centric view one would expect ona young-skewing medium like the Internet – and would also be a good way to risk losing this fall. As NH and NV showed, the simply reality — no matter how many cycles included a candidate who claims to change the math and rewrite the rules — is that the older outvote the younger by a wide, wide margin, and have consistently and without fail for decades. Never bet the bank on young voters – it is a suckers bet.

  • People who quail at a little inevitable campaign nastiness might perhaps consider the alternative of a Joe Lieberman – Zell Miller unity ticket 🙂

    Although Obama is clearly bringing out new voters and seems to be to be the best shot for long coat-tails that can usher in a huge democratic majority, Hillary is also clearly contributing to the record turn-outs (otherwise she wouldn’t be winning). It seems unlikely that most of the pro-Hillary is only turning out because they can’t stomach the idea of Obama or Edwards winning the nomination, so I’ think she’ll be okay in the general election.

    Even if it becomes a contest between HRC & McCain where the voters insist on “authenticity”, it takes very little examination of their records to realize that Hillary looks like the Rock of Gibraltar next to the shifting sand-bank that is McCain. The Bush hug just does not look like a winning image this time around: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/mccain_bush-hug-713122-1.jpg

  • So, Michael, it’s okay when your candidate does it, but there are no excuses for anyone else? That’s a good one.

    Huh? WTF do you not understand about differentiating between, you know, distorting policy positions, and, you know, OUT-AND-OUT RACE-BAITING.

    See, they’re not actually the same. And while I’m willing to forgive Clinton for misrepresenting Obama’s Social Security policy, for example, I will never forgive her for sitting idly by, smiling, while Bob Johnson trashed Obama as, in effect, a house negro. It’s just dishonest to suggest that the two are even it the same ball park.

    Unless you can demonstrate for me an instance of Obama’s campaign coming anywhere near close to that level of inflammatory rhetoric, why don’t you go back and re-read what I said and realize you missed my entire point.

    As near as I can tell, the Obama supporters have reached near-cult mentality, which has blinded them to the truth that their guy is not all by himself on the high road. That’s not being a demagogue.

    ROFL, that actually is pretty much the definition of being a demagogue. But here, just ot make the point (again, as I have done numerous times) that you are a dishonest political hack, here’s me, in the very post you’re responding to:

    I have no blinders on about my candidate. I know he’s a politician who’s going to use distortions to gain advantages, practice hard politics, etc

    Either you’re too dishonest, or your mind is too feeble, to see that 1)I know Obama is a politican, but 2)I’m responding to events that IMO are above and beyond politics. That’s not being a demagogue, btw, that’s just me being honest enough to call an idiot an idiot, or a liar a liar, as the case may be. You, clearly, are one or the other.

    What’s so hard to understand about this?

    Trying to create some sort of moral equivalence here is just bullshit. Period. There is no moral equivalence. Misrepresenting someone’s tax plan is not the same as the stink that came out of the Clinton campaign post-Iowa

    You seem to be the one excusing what one candidate does because it isn’t as bad as what another candidate is doing.

    This is just as fucking facile logically as the stupid “we give balance by being stenographers” approach to journalism in the MSM. WHAT ONE CANDIDATE IS DOING IS WORSE THAN WHAT THE OTHER CANDIDATE IS DOING. Recognizing that isn’t “drinking the kool-aid” or being in a cult, it’s called taking your head out of your ass and realizing that, you know, talking about kyl-lieberman votes IS NOT THE SAME AS race-baiting.

  • What zeitgeist said at #19.

    Democrats across generations, gender and race are motivated to vote because they know that they cannot assume that someone else will take the responsibility for voting the Republicans out. Too many made that mistake in 2004, and I don’t know anyone who isn’t determined to keep that from happening again.

  • Finally, I disagree with the suggestion implied in several comments that where there is a generational difference in support, we should go with the youth vote because that is the “future” of the party. That is a wildly ego-centric view one would expect ona young-skewing medium like the Internet – and would also be a good way to risk losing this fall. As NH and NV showed, the simply reality — no matter how many cycles included a candidate who claims to change the math and rewrite the rules — is that the older outvote the younger by a wide, wide margin, and have consistently and without fail for decades. Never bet the bank on young voters – it is a suckers bet.

    The point isn’t to to bet on the youth vote, the point is to NOT ALIENTATE AN ENTIRE GENERATION OF POTENTIAL DEMOCRATS.

    Me= case in point. Nominate Clinton, lose me as a Dem. That’s the reality. I’m no special exception, either. I will never forgive the Clinton’s for the stream of race-baiting crap coming out of their campaign, and I will never forgive the Dems if they reward that.

  • Can someone point me to an example where obama distorted clinton’s record? i’ve followed this thing pretty closely, but i haven’t seen ANY proof of that. Clinton on the other hand, has distorted obama’s record many times

  • Democrats across generations, gender and race are motivated to vote because they know that they cannot assume that someone else will take the responsibility for voting the Republicans out. Too many made that mistake in 2004, and I don’t know anyone who isn’t determined to keep that from happening again.

    You’re really in touch with the black vote, I can see.

  • Me= case in point. Nominate Clinton, lose me as a Dem. That’s the reality.

    Any party dumb enough to run after such petulant voters can’t win anyway. So when the next person tells me if I don’t nominate Edwards they’ll take their toys and go home, and the next one says if I don’t nominate Kucinich it proves I’m not a real Democrat, and the next one says if I don’t nominate Clinton they’ll never vote Dem again. . . what, I’m just paralyzed because I’m supposed to chase after a bunch of people giving immature and unbelievably arrogant ultimatums?

    Get a life. No party can ever be truly built on the back of passing faddists like you. Democrats would be stupid to be bullied or come begging. If you prefer the policies and appointees you’ll get from Democrats, vote for the Democrats. If you prefer the policies and appointees you’ll get from Republicans, vote Republicans. If you think you’re entitled to always get your way or you’ll go calling Anne all kinds of nasty things, fuck off I dont care how you vote. And neither will anyone else. I can build a much better long term party on ten “old nannies” who will work the trenches for every D up and down the ticket year in and year out than I could on a 1000 of your kind.

  • Though I doubt it was intentional CB if you re-read your post it’s definitely stacked against the Clintons more than Obama, in a big way. At no quarter.blogspot.com there is a piece from a union member and her union steward where she definitely says she was being pressured and blackmailed and threatened to vote Obama to the point of telling her that she could not participate and her paperwork taken from her. Now I know the Clintons were also guilty of much but my point is that the Clintons are always derided and blamed but Obama seems to get a pass, as if his behavior is trivial etc.

    Always hateful on the Clintons, ROTL???? mentions that it is Obama driving the young voters out and that Independents voted Democratic in ’06 because of Republican dissatisfaction. I believe it is “Necessity” driving up the numbers of all the engaged voting populace because of what has happened to our democracy, to our nation. We are feeling the need to do something to stop what is happening . We all know that no republican will win the WH this election and so are deciding who will be the next president through our democratic primaries. After the horrors of the Bush/Cheney republican rule where everything they did or tried to do became a disaster and the failure of our democratic leaders to stop them or impeach them, the people are out in full force to make sure such people are turned out of government. We have decided this all must change and we are desperate to get it done. Enough is enough is the rallying cry. We are not electing kings or queens but representatives of we the people, who will represent their party. Bush did not do all this by himself…he had the full support of the Republican party. Well, the democratic party will definitely support their nomination but will also control the agenda for the most part. All of our candidates will have to answer to the party they represent. We will not sit at home if our candidate isn’t nominated, we will try to get whoever is nominated and elected to be more like the candidate we favored on the issues. Republicans have not changed and will continue with smearing and attacking all dems because it’s all they know to do. Their policies and plans have been tried and failed and their hypocrisy and corruption will all be outed. Our democracy is being restored.

  • CB wrote:

    This past week, though, merely saw one series of ugly back-and-forth attacks replaced with another. The Clinton campaign, for example, issued a mailing to Nevada Dems hitting Obama on taxes with a message that could have been written by the Republican National Committee (it was also factually wrong). There was a lawsuit to eliminate agreed-upon Democratic precincts in Nevada. Obama comments about Reagan and the “party of ideas” were intentionally misconstrued to mislead voters. Mysterious robo-calls parroted Rush Limbaugh rhetoric about “Barack Hussein Obama.”

    Yesterday afternoon was especially unpleasant, with Bill Clinton personally claiming to have seen first-hand instances of voter intimidation. The Obama campaign not only denied the charge, officials fired back with accusations of Clinton-backed voter-suppression efforts.

    I see the back but I don’t see the forth.
    I see Kennedy telling Big Lying Dog to back off…
    But I don’t see anyone of credibility telling Obama to back off…

    No…
    This crap is all from the Clintons.
    It is all about the Clintons.

    I am amazed that anyone can think that out of such people good leadership can grow.

  • Z: No party can ever be truly built on the back of passing faddists like you.

    True. You need dedicated faddists.

  • Zeitgeist,

    I think your response is exactly why more and more people are moving away from the two parties and either becoming independent or simply not interested in politics. You are basically guaranteeing your vote to one party, no matter who they throw up there.

    If Kucinich or Gravel is the nominee, you would whole heartedly support them. Most people vote president based on the person, not party.

    That is why the previous poster can’t vote for Hillary as the dem nominee. it’s not sour grapes or immaturity or whatever reason you want to give. They don’t agree with her and don’t think she would be a good president.

  • I think the wounds will heal. This past week and the next week and a half are crucial to getting the momentum for a winner and both sides see what’s at stake. After Super Tuesday the acrimony will be subsiding as the one with the momentum can start rising about this pettiness.

    When Republicans start lobbing their crap, it will start driving Democrats together when voters realize that Mitt, McCain or Huckabee will be worse than the worst Democrat. No movement on healthcare, no end to Iraq, no fixes for the economy other than more tax cuts, a Supreme Court stacked with more right wingnuts and a permanently malignant bureaucracy are at risk. There’s no way and Democrats or right thinking independent can support that, no matter what we thought of the nastiness experience this month.

  • I guess Ted Kennedy and Rahm Emanual are just Kool-Aid Drinking Cultistist Faddist Obamabots

    In recent weeks, Sen. Edward Kennedy and Rep. Rahm Emanuel, both currently neutral in the Democratic contest, have told their old friend heatedly on the phone that he needs to change his tone and stop attacking Sen. Barack Obama, according to two sources familiar with the conversations who asked for anonymity because of their sensitive nature. Clinton, Kennedy and Emanuel all declined to comment.

    link

    Zeitgest:

    Any party dumb enough to run after such petulant voters can’t win anyway. So when the next person tells me if I don’t nominate Edwards they’ll take their toys and go home, and the next one says if I don’t nominate Kucinich it proves I’m not a real Democrat, and the next one says if I don’t nominate Clinton they’ll never vote Dem again. . . what, I’m just paralyzed because I’m supposed to chase after a bunch of people giving immature and unbelievably arrogant ultimatums?

    Get a life. No party can ever be truly built on the back of passing faddists like you.

    ROFL. Wow. Yeah, you got me pegged! A total “faddist” who supported Bradley but happily voted for Gore, who supported Dean but happily voted for and even volunteered for Kerry…I’m such a wishy-washy, petulant wannabe.

    Yeah, you seem to really have party-building figured out. Alienate life-long, volunteering party members. That’ll really swell the ranks!

    Again, this has nothing to do with my candidate winning or losing. I would’ve volunteered for Edwards, hell Biden or Dodd or Richardson too. And like I said, I started out liking Clinton.

    But I will NEVER support her bigoted race baiting. I will never support someone who can sit on there on the stage with Bob Johnson and smile while Johnson calls on some incredibly odious racial stereotypes. I’m sorry, but that’s not “just politics”, and its not acceptable. I will never support that.

  • Allen –

    And that is precisely why the Republicans were able to overcome Goldwater’s loss and turn it, patiently over decades, into a strategy that ultimately gave us BushCo.

    The reality is we have a two-party system and, like it or not, and despite all of its faults, we will for a long time to come. And while groups like NOW and NARAL and Sierra every year (until 2004 when some of this improved) endorsed some Republicans, and swore they were “nonpartisan” groups, and would not truly coordinate with the Democratic campaign machinery, the othe rside didn’t have that problem. National Right to Life, for example, didn’t bother to stay at arms length from the Republican party.

    Similarly, progressives – by nature “good government” types – take pride in “voting for the individual,” so they would vote for the local Republican congressman who seemed like an OK guy, even though they hated how the Republican majority was running Congress, not realizing that their local moderate Republican was neutered as soon as the organizing vote was over (which is why even though I defended Jim Leach the other day and hated to see him go, I supported the Democratic candidate). Republicans have always been more cohesive, more organized – and thats why they have kicked our asses many times it has really counted.

    The problem with candidate-by-candidate free-agent voters is that there is nobody you can count on to come in every week and stuff envelopes, contribute to the party as a whole, do the leg work that makes the Democratic party stronger than the Republican party. If all of the support and efforts are individual candidate based that is more a cult of personality and not a party. But at least in the current system, party is how you win. President means little if there is no other party infrastructure.

  • Allen @ 30…

    Politicians need to “dance with the gal what brung them.” Thus, party matters.

    So, I don’t buy the idea that So-And-So is such a great guy, I’ll vote for him even though his party stinks.

    Watch the GOP candidate debates – every one of them falls all over himself praising the “Reagan Revolution” every chance they get. You all know where they are going with their federal court appointments.

    Years ago, I realized I had never voted for a Republican, and I had this thought: That is pretty cool, I will follow that up by promising myself (solemn pledge) to never vote for a Republican in this lifetime. So far, so good.

  • From noquarter.blogspot.com
    Pharmaceutical Companies: Obama’s New Hampshire campaign co-chair, Jim Demers, is a lobbyist for pharmaceutical and pro-tobacco lobbyists.
    Credit Card Companies: Obama voted to protect credit card companies’ “predatory credit card interest rates.” (Sen. Hillary Clinton voted against the amendment.)
    Nuclear Energy Companies: Exelon Corporation, “the nation’s leading nuclear-power-plant operator” is Barack Obama’s “fourth largest patron.” U.S. Sen. Obama “Obama helped to vote down an amendment that would have killed vast loan guarantees for power-plant operators” — “called ‘one of the worst provisions in this massive piece of legislation’ by Taxpayers for Common Sense and Citizens Against Government Waste; the public will not only pay millions of dollars in loan costs but will risk losing billions of dollars if the companies default.” (Harper’s) . ME- stop acting like Obama has no negatives and deal with what is real.

    All I’ve been reading lately are Hillary bashing lists. I’m just saying none of these candidates are exactly what I want but I’m here to get them to listen to us on the issues because it seems the current elected dems in congress have closed their ears to the voters. I’m particularly interested in how Obama and Clinton will handle Dodd’s filibuster on telecom amnesty for breaking the law. The rule of law in our nation will be determined by this vote as it will demonstrate that large powerful corporations can bribe the congress with campaign donations in order to get away with rabid lawbreaking. Bush bribes the telecoms, telecoms bribe congress, and the rule of law is over ridden. Here is the first real test for Clinton and Obama (ironic that it should be against Harry Reid, Jay Rockefellow , Diane Feistein who have joined with Dick Cheney to ensure all Bush’s law breaking is made legal and the telecoms granted immunity, and congress intervenes in all the federal court cases reversing the judge’s decisions in favor of the telecoms. Money rules.

  • point taken about the two part system. BUT, the trend is that people are moving away from the 2 parties and just not getting involved in politics. it seems to me that the dems need to acknowledge that and start working to get those voters back, not writing them off.

    obama can reverse that trend, hillary can’t

    when only a small minority controls the dem party, they will be screwed just like the repubs are now with the evangelical voters

  • I dont think nominating HRC is “writing off” young people (indeed, I know a lot of young women who are very excited about her candidacy) any more than I think nominating Obama is “writing off” older voters. Both will be much better for young people than any Republican will be. But you also can’t offend the older voters by saying, essentially, “we don’t value the years you’ve spent in the trenches; the kids are kickin’ you to the curb and saying its their turn now.” First, not to sound like a broken record, but it is just an inescapble fact: voter performance improves with age. The young dont vote. Second, if we show that time in the trenches isn’t valued, why would anyone – old or young – spend time in the trenches? And – as Dr. Dean’s 50-state strategy recognizes – it may not get front page coverage but the trenches is where the bigger picture battles against E.Coli Conservatism, Theoconism and Neoconism are won and lost.

  • Horselover Fat,

    political parties change their positions all the time. it doesn’t make very much sense to support party over issues and party over candidate.

    did you support the democrats who were against the civil rights act of 1964? if those were your reps or senators, you still would have voted for them?

  • Allen @ 36

    Electability arguments assume you can predict the future behavior of other people. All you need to look at is the way opinion polls keep shifting to see that that is not so.

    The electability argument got the Dems the John Kerry fiasco 4 years ago.

    I would just assess who I think would be the most effective President and take it from there.

  • I think someone like me, who does not see any campaign ads (unless they create enough of a stir to be featured on CNN) and knows only what they read (often here and similar sources) could be forgiven for suggesting the Clinton campaign IS the campaign of dirty tricks and win-at-all-costs. In this circumstance, where Hillary originally ran on Washington Experience, people will find it hard not to suspect that part of that experience is in winning elections, by fair means or otherwise.

    I always respected Bill Clinton as a pretty good president, who ran a country respected throughout the world and oversaw general domestic prosperity throughout his tenure. His skirt-chasing was undignified and probably unpresidential, but I always saw it as on a non-interference basis with his ability to make the tough decisions and squeeze beneficial lawmaking out of a contentious Congress.

    Therefore, I’m a little taken aback to see him acting like a schoolyard bully in an attempt to steamroller his wife into the Oval Office. To me, it’s a thousand times more undignified than his dalliances, and does compromise his image as a fair decision maker. He’s acting like someone who wants something so badly that the goal has removed every other consideration – what he’ll have to do to achieve it, what people will think of him after the goal is achieved…none of those considerations seem to matter. I’ve seen him treat Republicans; hell, Chris MATTHEWS with more courtesy than he accords Obama.

    This, for me, contributes to an overall negative impression of the Clintons that I didn’t expect to feel. I can’t vote in American elections, but I’m extremely concerned about who will be president. Bush drove the whole country into negative territory for me, and I’m hoping to see that trend reversed. For me, a vote for Hillary would be a vote for bully tactics followed by business as usual. Of course, Americans must do as they think best.

  • i guess we just have a basic difference of opinion. i’ve run into the seniority system many times throughout my life, and it always seems to put some of the biggest fools on top.

    in my opinion, opportunity should be given to the best person. i dont care if someone has been in the trenches there whole life. if there is someone more qualified, then they need to step aside

  • Allen @ 38…

    The nature of the parties changed drastically when the Southern Democrats like Jesse Helms, Richard Shelby, Phil Gramm, many others switched to being Republicans. This is what fueled the period of Republican dominance that began in 1994.

    Right now, I am with the Dems and against the GOP on virtually every major issue, including the GOP hostility to science and intellectualism. It is really hard for me to imagine the process by which the GOP party platform might come to be acceptable to me.

  • Mark:

    I’ve seen him [Clinton] treat Republicans; hell, Chris MATTHEWS with more courtesy than he accords Obama.

    I have to say…
    You hit that one out of the park.

  • Allen @ 41 –

    I’m not sure the analogy of a seniority system in a workplace to what I said about the (hypothetical) choice between “writing off” young voters or older voters works, unless you are suggesting that as a group younger voters are somehow “more qualified” than older voters. But I do agree that we appear to see this through irreconcilable frameworks. Fortunately, it is a false dichotomy; neither candidate is, or is for, writing off either large block of voters.

  • Franken-thingie monster? Nope—just boot camp—with lots of “live-fire” exercises.

    But as for the “not-gonna-vote” issue—well, that’s up to the individual, because it is the individual, and only that individual, who has the right to determine if “candidate such-n-such’ is worth that vote. For those who want to play “SuperSith” with their “either-you’re-with-the-Party-or-you’re-meaningless” mentality, go on—keep it up—and then go a-begging to those who you’ve tossed out of your little “party” when you realize that America’s economy is shredded, it’s industrial and commercial bases are shattered, it’s families are lacking, and it needs a 2-to-3-million-body injection to rebuild it’s armed forces and deal with the Frankenstein Monster that the Bu$hies have stuck us with.

    If Clinton’s the nominee, she’s going to have to earn my vote—just like any other candidate, and just like any other issue. Simply plugging a “D” after her name on the ballot will not make the grade with me. If I have issues with her, then she’s got a problem with getting my vote—and a gaggle of high-minded thugs won’t bully me, or anyone else, into giving her that vote. The free lunch is over, people. Get a clue. This is the United States of America, and not some dimwitted third-world backwater where everyone gets marched off to the polls to vote for a one-party slate. Calling yourselves Democrats does not make you any less of a knuckledragging nitwit, if you are walking, talking, and thumping your chest like a knuckledragging nitwit. It just means that you’re living in a different cave.

    How many times have people blamed the “mindless lemmings” of the GOP for putting Bu$h in office—TWICE—and those same people now promote the mantra of “IOKIYAD?” Burning bridges just gives a lot of Indie-minded people a very good reason to re-name the Democratic Party the Hypocritic Party.

    And those Independent votes, if driven away from the “D” on a ballot, will make their mark next to the “R….”

  • I am a young voter – my wife is also. We would have both volunteered for Obama – in TX of all places. This is my first campaign to really pay attention to in my life. I agree with Hillary and Obama on almost all of the issues, but I will not stand for the tactics used by the Hillary campaign. My initial interest in politics grew out of my hatred of the Rovian tactics employed in the current administration. Regardless of what Hillary supporters say, I see nowhere near as much garbage coming from Obama’s campaign and particularly Obama. I think there is a reason that Obama is winning the educated Dem vote. He is inspiring and presidential – two intangibles that have the potential to win large majorities – a mandate – which is really the only thing that will allow progressive reforms to happen.

    Let’s pretend that Hillary can find a way to beat the Repubs among independents (which will be an uphill battle – particularly against McCain). The repubs will be falling all over themselves to stall every attempt she makes at reform – just like they do not. There are never any guarantees, but I think Obama and potentially Edwards are the only candidates with a real prayer of winning with a true mandate. Hillary very likely cannot.

    I know that I am not terribly inclined to vote for her, and my wife adamantly refuses to support her now (a previous staunch Clinton supporter).

  • Kudos to Mark for a great post at 4:07. I echo his comments and could not, in good conscience, vote for Hillary in the primary. However, if she were to be the Democratic nominee, I’d usually have no other choice. But if given the opportunity, I’d certainly give Bloomberg a listen.

    What are his policies on Iraq, Afghanistan, the national debt, our crumbling infrastruction, a progressive income tax, New Orleans, health care, appointments to the federal bench, anti-poverty measure, foreign policy, immigration,…?

    The Clintons might consider that many progressive voters are loyal to those who would be best equipped to implement progressive ideas…not just the party nominee.

  • “There are fissures, but are they deep?”

    If the comments here over the past few days/weeks are any indication, I’d have to say. yes.

  • Michael @ 4 I think the main thing to realize is that Obama has established himself as the leader of pretty much the entire left-leaning country under the age of 45. To the extent Democrats care about their future at all, alienating that group by dragging their leader’s name through the mud so a bunch of old, gray-haired nannies can elect “their gal” probably isn’t the brightest idea, IMO
    Wow. Let’s add “generation” to the list of potential divisions. Since I am over 45, I suppose that makes me one of those “gray-haired nannies” that you think you can simply dismiss.

    Zeitgeist @ 26 Get a life. No party can ever be truly built on the back of passing faddists like you.,

    Yikes, that’s me, too.

    I have had to scale back on my close reading of blogs recently, as it was consuming time and energy I did not have. The past few days I have engaged a little more and have been surprised at the “elevation of passions” that has occurred over the time I was “away.” I am not committed to any candidate. In the beginning I preferred Edwards but always felt that I would pull the lever for a D this time – regardless of who was running.

    Petorado @ 31…it will start driving Democrats together when voters realize that Mitt, McCain or Huckabee will be worse than the worst Democrat. No movement on healthcare, no end to Iraq, no fixes for the economy other than more tax cuts, a Supreme Court stacked with more right wingnuts and a permanently malignant bureaucracy are at risk. There’s no way and Democrats or right thinking independent can support that, no matter what we thought of the nastiness experience this month..

    That pretty much nails why I will vote for the Democrat this time around. As a gray-haired nanny, I do not feel like I have much luxury of time to sit this one out or cast a protest vote for a Republican. The older I get, the more significant four years (let alone eight) becomes to my life span. Although I can understand the dislike of Team Clinton – HRC would be my last choice among the Dems with a shot this time around. I think it would be great to break Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton cycle of repudiation and restoration in US presidential politics. BUT – I cannot believe that any of the candidates who Republicans will offer up are a better choice for me personally and for the policy direction of the country as a whole than HRC. It will take some nose holding on my part, but I will vote for her (and hope that she can hold her own from the twin onslaughts of the Republicans who hate her and a husband who cannot help but seek the spotlight).

    Michael @ 32
    In recent weeks, Sen. Edward Kennedy and Rep. Rahm Emanuel, both currently neutral in the Democratic contest, have told their old friend heatedly on the phone that he needs to change his tone and stop attacking Sen. Barack Obama, according to two sources familiar with the conversations who asked for anonymity because of their sensitive nature. Clinton, Kennedy and Emanuel all declined to comment.

    I think they know that Bill as attack dog reminds people like me of what they did not like about the Clinton presidency rather than what they liked, i.e., non-stop, wearying drama. Now some will (fairly) point out that Clinton’s enemy’s created much of that drama. I concede that. But, fatigue is still fatigue.

    Allen @ 30
    I think your response is exactly why more and more people are moving away from the two parties and either becoming independent or simply not interested in politics. You are basically guaranteeing your vote to one party, no matter who they throw up there.

    We have a pretty good idea – even if they have no front-runner yet – of who the Republicans COULD “throw up there” in 2008. For me, it is a no brainer that I would give my vote to HRC before any of the current Republican choices. I am very worried about the SCOTUS and the federal courts in general. So, even if its Hillary, I’m in.

    Michael @32
    But I will NEVER support her bigoted race baiting. I will never support someone who can sit on there on the stage with Bob Johnson and smile while Johnson calls on some incredibly odious racial stereotypes. I’m sorry, but that’s not “just politics”, and its not acceptable. I will never support that.

    I believe your conclusion is sincerely reached. But, what will your alternative be? Will you be happier if John McCain or Mitt Romney or Mike Huckabee is setting the policy agenda over the next 4 – 8 years? Seriously? Perhaps my age is showing again, because I suspect I will never actually “admire” a politician again in my lifetime. It will simply be a matter of moving forward the agenda with which I most agree.

  • “There are fissures, but are they deep?”

    Accusations of racist behaviour, as believed, will get some people very angry.

    Accusations of racist behaviour, as considered unfair, will get a different set of people very angry.

    Answer: Yes. Same goes for accusations of dirty trickery.

  • beep52 @ 48:

    fortunately, while i see that among the handful of us here, it is the exact opposite of what i see in my community, my workplace, my face-to-face activities. the overwhelming majority of those folks are thrilled to have what they see as the best choices in ages on the D side, and they could happily support Clinton, Obama, or Edwards in the general.

  • Passions are running high, as witnessed by huge turnouts for Democratic primaries and caucuses. Anything seen as threatening Democratic success in November will really set off some people.

  • CB wrote:

    I see Dickerson’s point, but isn’t this a bit hyperbolic?

    Well- let’s look at the last sentence of the Dickerson excerpt:

    This prospect of Clinton commanding a party stitched together like Frankenstein may at some point cause people to resist supporting her even if their doubts about Obama increase.

    Doesn’t this sound like something a Republican would write if they were trying to minimize the impact of recent stories about fractures in the Republican party, caused by lack of decisive, strong, numerous support for one of their candidates over the others?

    These Democratic problems are small potatoes compared to those Republican problems, but he’s using them to try to indict our whole party as falling apart. Yeah right! That’s a fantasy. We’re energized and ready to work as we’ve ever been. Dickerson’s line sounds as dishonest as anything I’ve ever heard/read to me.

  • Sad as it may be; there are always some who want to take their ball home with them, if they don’t get their way.

  • You always see a few elbows under the basket at this stage of the race. Somehow parties do manage to hold together through the process time after time though, despite inevitable fretting (and concern trolling on many levels) over all the unpleasantness.

  • In defense of some of the posts, I don’t think it’s about “not getting their way”. The Clinton’s are truly making some of us wonder if they still share progressive values (which includes truth and fairness).

    Me? I was looking forward to looking forward to my vote in the general. If Hillary wins, then yet again, I’ll be voting for the lesser of the two evils (or three evils if Bloomberg jumps in).

  • I would say that claims of attempted voter suppression by the Culinary workers union do not seem incredible. I heard it was Chelsae Clinton who overheard the alleged exchange, BTW. Anyway, big city unions do know how to play hardball and this is Las Vegas we’re talking about, not Mayberry. The union had staked a lot of credibility on this race so the motive was definitely there. There’s also the possibility of an over-zealous shop steward acting on their own.

    What the union didn’t know apparently, was that the Clinton campaign had been quietly organizing among their rank and file for weeks, according to the Las Vegas Sun. That was how Clinton managed to win 7 out of 9 of the casino caucuses in spite of the union leadership’s best efforts to deliver them for Barack Obama.

    I never heard Clinton or anyone else no one accuse the Obama campaign of complicity in any alleged suppression tactics though. So I don’t know why they’d be the ones denying it, but I’d hardly expect the union to come out and admit to such tactics if true.

  • Getting back to the title of the article, I think the fissures are deep.

    Much of the comments here illustrate this and serve as a microcosm of what is happening in the party which is a mere minor reflecton of the fissurs that exist between the Republicans and Democrats/ conservatives and progressives.

    True leadership in these times would be trying to bridge the ever-widening chasms instead of contributing to them. I don’t see any of the so-alled viable candidates, we are presently being offered from either party, able to provide that kind of leadership.

  • This would be funny if it were Republicans having this kind of argument, but for Dems this is kind of par for the course. I have been a Democrat all my adult life and I have found that when Democrats get together, there is always some kind of an argument. I see that as good for the party. We air our greivences and compromise.

    What were are seeing here is the major candidates are jockeying for position. Clinton is doing it old school where her people are attacking the opposition. Obama’s people are fighting back. The candidates have said they have worked it out now, let us hope so, but don’t be suprised when it happens again after Super Tuesday. Clinton and Obama are arguing through proxies and hopefully they will air things out.

  • The great impending economic difficulties we face, regardless of which party/candidate wins the election, will strain the cultural, moral, and legal traditions that make our country possible. It is said that greatness is forged in the heat of adversity. If we can’t come up with a leader who inspires, we are in big trouble.

  • Responding to ej’s post, the specific fissure in question exists primarily between those of us who are disgusted with the behavior of the Clinton campaign and those who aren’t. If the implication is that Edwards and Obama are contributing to the ever-widening chasms, then I beg to differ.

    And as far as the comment about the lack of existence of a candidate(s) who is “trying to bridge” such chasms, I disagree there too. I would argue that this is precisely what the Obama campaign has been and continues to be all about.

    I’m becoming frustrated with David Broder-like comments that essentially take the position “they’re all guilty”. No they’re not. There’s no comparison with any other Democrat’s campaign to the dishonesty that’s been coming out of the Clinton campaign.

  • Chris @ 62…

    You are assuming facts not in evidence. Just because you believe Clinton and her supporters are behaving reprehensibly, but Obama is the good guy not does not mean they agree with your beliefs. These holier-than-thou accusations by opponents of the Clintons are a big contributor to the prevailing ongoing tensions, as it is natural for anyone who feels unfairly accused to get pissed.

    Besides, all this pearl clutching and hankie twisting concern trolling by the Obama people is really most unseemly.

  • Madstork wrote:

    I have been a Democrat all my adult life and I have found that when Democrats get together, there is always some kind of an argument.

    Really? I find it to be the opposite.

    It is these internet comments pages which are odd for the lack of concensus, and look a lot like “raiding.”

  • Facts not in evidence? To anyone who has been paying attention, the evidence is overwhelming and as been provided ad naseum on this and other blogs. Any bias would seem to come from those who would deny the reprehensible behavior coming out of the Clinton campaign or equate it to the behavior of other Democrats.

    You also seem to forget (or deny) that the large majority of us who are disgusted today, were strong fans/supporters of both Bill and Hillary Clinton before the Iowa caucuses (regardless of who we may have planned to vote in upcoming primaries).

    It is understandable for those who are unfairly accused to be pissed. However, the Clinton’s are not unfairly accused. Quite the opposite.

  • Although Edwards has been (and remains, though a bit less recently) my first choice, until about 4 weeks ago, I’d have voted — with almost equal enthusiasm — for any of the current top 3. Not because I believe in the “my party, right or wrong” maxim, but because I truly believed that all 3 of them were excellent choices. Good people, as well as progressively-inclined politicians.

    That’s no longer my belief; one of the 3 no longer qualifies as a good person, even if she’s still a progressively-inclined politician (though I’m beginning to wonder how much I can trust her political stance, if her moral compass seems to have been tossed overboard).

    If she’s nominated… Well, provided she (and her husband) keeps her nose absolutely clean from now on; provided she stops adding dynamite to those already existing fissures… I may still vote for her — as people have pointed out, my other options are pretty dismal. But I will always feel like I’m following one of the most misogynistic pieces of advice (as proffered by Oscar Wilde) I’ve ever heard: “If rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it”

  • Study the issues and you will find that Hillary is more progressive than Obama. What worries me about Obama is that most are pulled into identity politics. He and Hillary don’t disagree on much. Edwards is more progressive than either but the only real change is Kucinich. All the others are measured as either plus or minus Kucinich on the issues. His is the only “not for profit” health care plan. He is the only one talking accountability for the last 7yrs and the only one talking peace.

    Times have changed because of the urgency in dealing with global warming and the energy crisis. All the dems are electable…none of the repubs are electable(it would just be another vote for Bush). I will not condemn any of the dem candidates but republican rule must and will end. The polls indicate that Hillary has overwhelming support from independents so I realize a lot of mis information is thrown out there. I watched a youtube video of Obama lying saying it wasn’t true that one his campaign managers was a lobbyist for Pfzifer drug corp.. I watched him lie to Diane Sawyer too so I know he does this with ease. It surprised me because of this unreasonable image in my head and the same is true of Clinton and Edwards. Obama has some questionable ties to corrupt figures in Illinois that he is trying to distance himself from so I know none of these people are Mr. Clean Hands. But I start with the premise that the republicans have got to go and that they will no matter who the dem nominee is, and that no matter which nominee it is they will have to be challenged to be more progressive on dealing with the issues because they all are still minus Kucinich.

  • ***libra*** in you fantasy goober…rape is an act of violence so if you can relax and enjoy being beaten and stabbed you’re sick. I think Wilde is sick for such a tribute to that male myth that “they all really want it” or “no really means yes” which that statement suggests.

    I prefer “bipartisanship is just date rape”, a famous republican notion.

  • I have been a registered Democrat my whole voting life. If Hillary gets the nomination I will vote for anyone other than her (except Mitt). 50% + 1 governance simply is not good for this nation.

  • bjobotts – I’ve pretty much given up trying to talk to Obama supporters about their candidate’s clay feet; they just don’t want to hear it. The constant demonizing of Clinton works for them – or so they think – and while I don’t deny that Clinton is deserving of some of the criticism for the actions and statements of people associated with her campaign, Obama has some of that going on, as well.

    I’m old enough that I no longer look for or expect some kind of political savior to save the day – but I’m not so cynical that I’m willing to accept really egregious behavior and tactics, either.

    I’m just hoping that somehow, Edwards can begin to appear to be the credible alternative to both Clinton and Obama.

  • The core elements of the party are still very much in place; Dems aren’t even close to experiencing the kind of ideological fissures the Republicans are facing; and Dems are well aware that the political landscape in 2008 gives them an inherent advantage.

    Correct. We are not close to experiencing ideological fissures. But we are close to experiencing personal, identity fissures.

    I will never vote for a Clinton ever again, and I was one of their biggest fans until about a month ago. However, I will never, EVER, vote for a racebaiter, even if it is a Clinton. Sorry. Some of us have principles.

    Go Bloomberg!

  • …while I don’t deny that Clinton is deserving of some of the criticism for the actions and statements of people associated with her campaign, Obama has some of that going on, as well…

    Thank you, David Broder.

  • If one keeps insisting that Clinton is the evil and horrible bitch who is “proven” to have done horrible whatever, this carries an implication: That anyone who nevertheless still supports Clinton is either:

    a) too “low-information” to be aware how evil the bitch is, or

    b) too stupid to grasp why Clinton’s behaviour is unacceptable, or

    c) too malicious to appreciate why Clinton’s behaviour is unacceptable.

    Hence, the downside of negative campaigning: the supporters of the target get hostile over being impugned by the sources of the attacks. And, perhaps, not eager to smooth things over and let bygones be bygones.

    Let’s not forget, either, that the MSM loves a good brouhaha. It sure looks to me like the MSM are very much the agents provacateurs contributing to the recent kerfluffles, with for example unsourced allegations of nefarious whatever.

  • I think younger voters are so gung ho about Obama because (1) they weren’t paying attention when the Clintons were in office and don’t realize how competently the country was run; (2) they haven’t been around long enough to recognize the gilded promises and “hope” dished out during speeches are empty rhetoric without actions to support them; (3) the younger you are, the more passionate you are about everything, even inconsequentials such as music groups or clothes; (4) until you see the impact that policies have on your real life employment, health, etc., you don’t know what really matters, what amount of change is actually likely or possible, and how politicians must reconcile competing interests of people in the whole country, not just your own; (5) young people have an affinity for people closer to themselves in age and other demographics, so Obama’s calculated image is most appealing to them and least appealing to older people. There is nothing inherently good about being young and nothing inherently bad about being old, yet Clinton is derided because older women are coming out for her, while Obama is lauded because youth are coming out for him. There is certainly ugliness in race baiting, but there is also ugliness in this kind of equation, and the fact that no one seems to care much about it. I can sympathize with being African American and having someone write off your vote. It happens to me all the time but there is no name for it, no movement, no one to become outraged. I will vote for HRC because she is the force opposing that, by her presence and I believe by her willingness to see everyone, not just the desirable demographics. In that, she takes after Bill who clearly loves all people and delights in talking to everyone, not just the young, pretty and healthy. I believe that African American voters will remember what the Clintons have done for them and others, without any last minute pandering, once they are no longer blinded by Obama “I have a dream” imitations, insulting to Dr. King because he dreams for himself instead of the nation’s people (regardless of race).

  • bill and hillary suck.

    their arrogance and entitlement is detroying the best hope for the dems in decades. what a shame

  • There is nothing inherently good about being young and nothing inherently bad about being old, yet Clinton is derided because older women are coming out for her, while Obama is lauded because youth are coming out for him. There is certainly ugliness in race baiting, but there is also ugliness in this kind of equation

    Mary, I couldn’t agree more. There has been “age baiting,” a dismissiveness to what an HRC presidency would mean to many women, and even above in this thread a comment that clearly suggested smart people support Obama. Here I thought that the Democratic party I initially joined was all about looking out for the less educated, the less wealthy – those less able. Now somehow it is a bad thing that HRC has those as her constituency. There is an elitism, one that gives tunnel vision about the issues you raised, to the Obama supporters that seems far removed from what the Democratic party I grew up in was about.

  • I think younger voters are so gung ho about Obama because (1) they weren’t paying attention when the Clintons were in office and don’t realize how competently the country was run…

    The Clintons were not in office. Bill Clinton was. His presidency gives us little or no information about the kind of president that Hillary would be (just as Bush 41 was not a reliable predictor of Bush 43).

  • Wow, this has been a heated discussion. My take is that all sides have done things to bait the other, but clearly the tenor from the Clinton camp stinks. Sure, I will plug my nose and vote for Clinton if it comes to that, but I would rather have ANY of the other Democratic candidates. Just once in my lifetime I would love to vote for someone running for President because I LIKED them and not because they were better than the alternative.

    Heck, if there were a decent centrist Republican (which there isn’t this time around) then I would consider them over Clinton.

    Hey, maybe all the rational people in the middle should form a new party! Yeah, the “Live with fiscal discipline, while trying to do right by the people and inspire them too, Party”.

  • “The Clintons were not in office. Bill Clinton was.”

    Except that Mrs. Clinton was not exactly xanaxed up Laura Bush.

    Hillary may not have been on the payroll, but she was widely regarded as Bill’s top political and policy strategist, who had most of the important stuff run by her.

  • Hillary may not have been on the payroll, but she was widely regarded as Bill’s top political and policy strategist, who had most of the important stuff run by her.

    “A case in point is Clinton’s 1993 “health reform” plan. She didn’t do any “listening tour” for that, no televised town meetings with heart-rending grassroots testimonies. Instead, she gathered up a cadre of wonks for months of closed-door meetings, some so secretive that the participants themselves were barred from bringing in pencils or pens. According to David Corn of The Nation, when Clinton was told that 70 percent of Americans polled favored a single-payer system at the time, she responded sarcastically with, “Now tell me something interesting.”

    …But she did it her way, and ended up with a 1300 page plan that no one, on either side of the aisle, liked or could even comprehend – proving that historical change isn’t made by the smartest girl in the room, even if she shares a bed with the president. Similarly, she ignored the anti-war movement of this decade and alienated untold numbers of Democratic voters, feminists included.”

    Barbara Ehrenreich

  • We are independents, and because of the dirty campaigning we have seen coming from the Clintons, we will not vote Democratic in November if Hillary Clinton is your nominee. And we do not like seeing Senator Obama being portrayed just as guilty because he defends himself. The Clintons are swift-boating a rival in your own party and it is disgusting. Now what do I mean by dirty campaigning? My husband and I have serious doubts about the validity of Clinton’s win in NH. Obama clearly had a bounce after Iowa, and the pollsters showed an AVERAGE of a 7 point lead over Clinton on election day, yet the results came out the opposite. Diebold may be invovled in this unexplained anomaly, and Diebold will enter the picture again in other states including California. Then there are the Robo-calls in Nevada, the smears of drug dealing and being a Muslim by Clinton surrogates including the Surrogate-in-Chief, the attempt at voter suppression when the Clintons thought things were not going their way.

    Quite early on in the debates I remember Dennis Kucinich, referring to the debate format and possibly the media coverage of Clinton to the exclusion of all others, saying that these primaries were rigged. I think he is right: your Democratic establishment is rigging these elections to install Hillary Clinton. But you will not shove her down our throats, and please do not say that any Democrat will be better than a Republican because my husband and I frankly see no difference between a Clinton campaign and an Rove campaign, only that it is directed against your own rather than the perceived enemy..

  • Dickerson is as much of an Obamaist as Sullivan and Huffington. He’s just pissed that Obama lost Nevada.

    The candidates are entitled to make their cases and the voters will decide when they decide. Until then, the voters have every right to advocate for their candidates even if Dickerson doesn’t like some of our choices.

  • Let me first say that I am in no way “anti-Clinton”. I’d have given anything for the past 7 years to have been more like the 8 that preceded it.

    Having said that, I feel what I witnessed yesterday was shady and dishonest. I cannot speak for other precincts in the Nevada Caucus, but we felt that, at best, the Clinton camp were calling the shots and were far more aggressive in their tactics that the Obama supporters. At worst, they cheated.

    First, we were greeted at the door by Hillary supporters and were made to feel rather like lepers for being Edwards supporters. We were told, in fact, that we were the only Edwards supporters there. We were not. In fact, at least one other Edwards supporter was told the same thing. We have no way of knowing how many would-be Edwards and/or Kucinich supporters were simply intimidated into leaving.

    I quickly realize that my wife and I would have to participate far more actively than we had thought. We are both rather shy and don’t tend to be the “squeaky gate”. We sucked in our apprehensions and began to call for Edwards supporters. My wife improvised an Edwards sign on a yellow piece of notebook paper.

    There turned out to be 6 of us all total. Not enough for viability but more than we’d been led to believe. We manged to bring the only 2 Kucinich supporters over to our camp for an even 8. We were then told we were not viable and would need to realign or go home.

    We were also told that the results of the head count was 44 to 44 and that we would be the “swing vote”. The Clinton supporters again showed their aggressiveness (and I don’t fault them for that; they were clearly more experienced) but concentrated their efforts on me. I guess they felt I was the influential one. This worked out nicely because it left the other 7 wide open to be persuaded to join the Obama supporters.

    I held my ground and the 8 of us moved over to the Obama camp. Now it was 44 to 52, right? Apparently not, the Clinton team (who seemed to be orchestrating the whole proceedings) declared their victory of 72 to 69 after counting votes of people who had left.

    We all left feeling a bit cheated. Not to mention that we felt a little like the Clinton supporters were trying to sell us a used car. In the end, the Clinton supporters came across just as their candidate does: robotic, cold, calculating and in it to win it. There was much more warmth and diversity among the Obama, Edwards even the Kucinich supporters.

    I will vote for Clinton should she get the nod but I don’t think things will change much. I’m not given to conspiracy theories but I feel more than ever that the game is fixed.

  • i disagree with the article. If you read comments on any site about this you find people who are Edwards supporters and even undecideds who are so nauseated by the Rovian tactics by the Clintons they are starting to look at republican candidates just in case Hillary is the nominee.
    There is alot more then mere party interfighting. We have spent 7 years condemning the politics of Rove and Bush. The very type that is now being used by the Clintons. For many, to reward them by supporting them would be the height of hypocracy.
    How can we in turn hate the republicans for doing exactly what the Clintons are doing?
    On top of that, it is beginning to look like what many suspected all along. That Bill is running for a 3rd term and doing an end run around the 22nd amendment.
    There are constitutional issues involved as well as dynasty politics.
    And even if Hillary is the front for Bill’s cheating, you have to wonder about a woman who claims to be a feminist but, is allowing her husband to do the dirty work and the full campaigning for her. To essentially take over for her. He is looking more like the candidate instead of surrogate and vice versa.
    You then wonder if Hillary cannot control Bill, then how can she possibly run a white house. And at that, if Bill is so out of control that he is unable to be controled, do you want someone that off the farm to be back in the white house? You don’t know how much his personality has destablized over the years. He may be uncontrolable now.
    Kennedy and other top democrats are pissed off at the Clintons and have told them to back off from their heavy attacks on other democrats and Bill refuses to listen.
    This alone is causing major disruptions in the party and if the party itself is splintering because of Bill, of course the grassroots is in revolt.

  • petorado@31,

    I don’t think that the “wounds will heal”, because what was once spread by the Democratic Party to the ‘outside’ has now reached into the Democratic Party itself, i.e. all the various types of their baiting schemes.

    For example, the “tax cuts” that you mentioned is another form of baiting meant to cause divisions between the rich and poor. Basically, the top 50% of wage earners pay 97% of “all federal income taxes” (last I heard, that included couples earning something like $25,000 or so). The top 25% of wage earners pay 86% of “all federal income taxes”. The top 1% pay 39% of the tax burden. That means…that the bottom 50% of wage earners pay 3% of “all federal income taxes”.

    In my opinion, most of us should be thanking the top 1% and top 25%…so to speak.

  • Sure, Seaberry, we should be thanking them as they own the very streets we walk upon.

    Don’t be an idiot. R is different than D, by a wide margin. If you weren’t paying attention before, pay attention now.

    I don’t care how negative you feel about Hillary Clinton. She’s our middle candidate, and so there she will be. If you don’t like her, vote Kucinich, and come back to vote for the D candidate in the fall.

    Obama isn’t any more sparkling, he’s not had to fight as long in Washington as Clinton. But Edwards has been there longer, and has more liberal, progressive positions.

    Clinton would still be far more change than any R on the list – at least change that would help the bottom 50%. Obama? There’s nothing he’s offering which is more change than Clinton, with his positions. He is a fresh face, though. Edwards? You want the most D for your buck? That’s him.

    But stop pretending any candidate is more ‘divisive’ than the others. They’re just trying to make the differences apparent.

  • Seaberry

    The top 25% of wage earners pay 86% of “all federal income taxes”. The top 1% pay 39% of the tax burden.

    Then they clearly pay too little.

    As it turns out, in 2001, the top 1% held 40% of all financial wealth in the United States, and over 1/3 or net wealth. Per the same reference, the top 20% held 84% of the wealth.

    Since that time, the inequality of wealth distribution has gotten worse, so the top 1% likely hold an even larger percentage now.

    By this measure, the amount they pay in taxes is almost perfect: it is perfectly proportional to the wealth they hold.

    The problem is that the more wealth you have, the more you benefit from the costs of government. If I don’t own jack, it really doesn’t matter if the police protect it. If I can’t afford to drive, roads, traffic enforcement, etc. don’t contribute much to my standard of living. If I dont own stock, securities law and monetary policy dont mean much to me. And if I am not in management, the myriad ways the law favors corporations probably work against me, not for me.

    So in fact the top 1% or 25% should be paying slightly more in taxes than the percentage of the wealth they horde.

  • Mary says:
    I think younger voters are so gung ho about Obama because (1) they weren’t paying attention when the Clintons were in office and don’t realize how competently the country was run; (2) they haven’t been around long enough to recognize the gilded promises and “hope” dished out during speeches are empty rhetoric without actions to support them, ect.

    I am hardly a college student. I have kids who have already gone to college. I am also a well informed, educated woman who is very well read.
    I am also an Obama supporter.
    You cannot stereotype the people who support candidates into Mark Penn boxes.
    Yes, the young are intrigued with Obama but, they are also the ones who research the issues alot more than the so called informed adults do.
    All those women who are leaning to Hillary not based on anything to do with policies, as most supporter usually cannot say what they are, but, simply because she wears lipstick is me patently irresponsible and absurd.
    They do not care whether her policies are not good or that she has a long track record of failure and bad judgment. All they know is she is a woman and that is why they support her.
    I don’t see that as being the height of responsible judgment for a president or reason to support Hillary.
    Yet, you deride Obama supporters as being uninformed spaced out and immature kids.
    What I also know is that given the way the Clintons have behaved, as yes, I do remember those years well and how Bill threw the democrats under the bus more than a few times and embraced many republican policies and triangulation and lost the house and senate after 40 years of democratic rule, I will never vote for a Clinton.
    I find their Rovian tactics to be repulsive and disgusting.

  • …stop pretending any candidate is more ‘divisive’ than the others. They’re just trying to make the differences apparent.

    David Broder’s Disease…dastardly.

    That said, I agree with that “R is different than D, by a wide margin”. But if Hillary Clinton wins the nomination, that could be the opening Bloomberg seeks. Some of us, it seems, would be open to giving him a look.

    So much for expanding the base.

  • Those of you who are threatening to vote Republican if Hillary is the nominee? Be my guest. It’s still a free country, and that means you can vote for whomever you like.

    I’m not sure who, exactly, you think you would be punishing by doing that, and I don’t understand how you could vote for 4 more years of what we will have had for the last eight, but I don’t have to understand you.

    But, please – if someone like McCain or Romney takes the oath of office on 1/20/09, standing alongside VP Huckabee or VP Lieberman, when Duncan Hunter is your Secretary of Defense, when Orrin Hatch is sitting on the Supreme Court, when gas prices keep rising, when health care reform dies on the table, when more kids and more families go without, when we’re invading Iran, and opening more black site prisons, when they start reading your mail along with listening to your phone calls and monitoring your e-mail, I know you won’t dare utter a word of complaint, or regret for your decision, will you?

    I love these people who are so disgusted by what they think are Rovian tactics, who apparently will vote for the party that spawned Karl Rove. Yeah, that makes all kinds of sense.

    Yeah, don’t vote for the woman who stayed married, helped raise a well-adjusted and responsible child and has worked on children’s issues and family issues and women’s issues all of her working life. Please, vote for the “family values” party and one of the serial adulterers who represent it these days. Yeah, it makes sense to go vote for the party that wants to make abortion illegal, deny health care to children of the working poor, has fought increases in the minimum wage. Sure, that makes sense.

    Give me a fucking break.

  • “I think younger voters are so gung ho about Obama because (1) they weren’t paying attention when the Clintons were in office and don’t realize how competently the country was run;” — Mary

    Well, compared to Bush/Cheney, yes, but many of us who live inside the Beltway would beg to differ. I remember lifelong, liberal bureaucrats being incredulous at the petty bullshit coming down from the WH that kept them from doing their jobs — and actually looking back longingly at the Bush I administration, not for its policies but for its comparative competence. DADT? Hillary’s health care fiasco? NAFTA? The 94 election? And then blowing the last two years because he lied to the nation, his own staff and the court? Competent isn’t the adjective that comes to mind when I think back.

  • … but, as Anne notes above, better to take a Pepto Bismol and vote for the D you dislike than to stay home or vote R — unless you really want to commit the nation to another 4 years in the booby hatch. My concern is we might never get out.

  • This thread makes me sick to read. And mostly because I think the democratic party is in real danger.

    IMO, the Clintons are not the future of the democratic party. They are the past, for good and ill. Obama is the brightest star in our future.

    If Hillary wins, I will not vote for her. All the reasons I feel this way, are laid out clearly in the thread above, and I don’t have the heart to repeat them.

    I honestly believe that it would be better to have a republican in the white house. The economy is in the shitter, and it will stay there. Let one of them be a one term-er, and we’ll run Obama or another star in 4 years. I am confident things will get worse in America, not better, if Hillary becomes president. I cannot bear to live through 8 years of Dems getting “Rat Fucked” because of Hillary.

    Now is the time for a permanent Democratic Majority. Hillary, will move us backwards. Obama is the only one that could move Democrats away from the divisive 50+1% shit fights of the last 15 years. So for me, its Obama or a Republican.

  • Thorin:
    I have to say that I find your POV – I honestly believe that it would be better to have a republican in the white house. -puzzling in the extreme.

    You act as though the presidency of the the United States is some trophy that will sit on a shelf for four years until your guy gets another chance to win it back. One thing that GWB has demonstrated quite effectively is that the office of the President can empower a slender majority of its own party and obstruct a slender majority of the opposition. What is your vision for this country if you would prefer a Republican-to-be-named later over Hillary Clinton? What is it that you would like to see accomplished in the next four years (anything?) that you think a Republican president would work harder to deliver for you than Hillary Clinton would?

    While the election is mainly about the 2008 nominees, it also is a referendum on GWB and his enabling band of Republicans. I think of that smirking Chimperor declaring that he was subject to but one “accountability moment,” and he had passed that test. Ugh. Personally, my 2008 vote will be a repudiation (again) of this man’s time in office and place in history. His party has made a shambles of this country that I love very much. I will not reward them for that. They need rebuke at every opportunity.

    With one year to go in this nightmare of an administration (it really has it all: incompetence, greed, dishonesty, willfull ignorance, secrecy, fear mongering, etc), I pray every day for the good health of John Paul Stevens, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Stephen Breyer, and David Souter. Do I doubt that Hillary for four years would be better than any Republican? No. I just compare Ginsburg and Breyer to Sammy Alito. All the Republicans assure their audiences that they will nominate justices in the mold of Thomas and Scalia. This simply is not acceptable to me. These men are radical right wingers, and IMO, the court is crying out for some countervaling minds. This issue goes far beyond your little four year “We’ll run Obama or some other – yet to be identified – star” scenario. Perhaps you do not care. It grieves me to think I may be dead before Alito’s time on the court passes, and I find intolerable the thought of a Republican appointing 2-3 new Thomas / Scalia clones to the court in the time between now and 2013.

    I do not admire the Clintons. Hillary’s speeches do not inspire me, and some of the tactics that have been attributed to her are unsavory at best. But, I cannot see how Mitt “Double Gitmo” Romney, Mike “Lets Change the Constitution to Match (his) God’s Word” Huckabee, or John “Maverick Millitarist / Found Religion” McCain, or Rudy “9/11 Is All I’ve Got” Giuliani are more appealing choices. Again, what would you hope to achieve by giving your vote to a Republican – any Republican – over any one of the viable Dem’s in this year’s field? Do you think you must destroy the village to save it?

    Finally, if Obama does win the nomination, I have no doubt that his Republican foes will do anything and everything to discredit and defeat him. They will bury the needle on your indignation meter. They will appeal find the lowest common denominators of doubt about his fitness to govern this country and hammer away mercilessly. It will be that way now and four years from now.

  • I agree with TuiMel that voting Republican in protest against a possible Hillary nomination is going too far. In fact, if Hillary does get the nod, Democrats must throw all their weight behind her, because the Republicans are sure she’ll be easiest to beat – the wisdom of that strategy is borne out in this thread. Hillary is divisive, and inspires hatred where Hillary-lovers only seem to be peevish about Obama because he’s so popular despite having come out of nowhere.

    Republicans have lots of fear tactics to use against Hillary to split the vote, and I imagine they’ve picked up a few more here, as people articulate what worries them most about her. Still, stop and think. This looks like it’s going to be a Democratic year; a sweep. If so, a significant majority in both houses ought to be enough to restrain Hillary’s power, if she gets carried away. That’s what worries me most about her; that she won’t be able to put down the One Ring of Executive Power that Bush has consolidated, and used to enslave America.

    There are other things I don’t like about her. She’s consolidated a bloc of voters who will support her only because she’s a woman. To be fair, Obama likely has a similar bloc who will support him only because he is black. She voted for the war. The Clinton campaign machine is indisputably using dirty tricks more appropriate to the Republicans to raise and nurture doubt about Obama, and to make Hillary’s record seem rosier than history shows it to be.

    None of those matter, set against the possibility of another Republican president, even with a heavily Democratic Congress and Senate. Bush has written the playbook for using recess appointments and arm-twisting to get around even a Congress filled with opposition – if he ever had to face it, which he hasn’t thus far.

    Each of the Republican candidates has serious and disturbing flaws, and each in his own way is a barrier in the path of America returning to something like normal. A dirty and greedy corporate beast has risen in your midst, and it needs a Republican president to feed it. With the proper support, even Hillary can whip the pants off anyone the Republicans choose to shove into the ring – provided the vote isn’t split or muted by protest votes.

    The next president will be a Democrat.

  • I appreciate everything you just wrote. And they are all things I consider, when I contemplate McCain or Mitt as our next president.

    Especially regarding the Supreme Court.

    Here’s why I believe what I believe. I believe this country has been in a partisan death grip for the last 15 years. And it has not turned out well, for the issues I care about.

    I believe the two most divisive people in the United States are George W. Bush and Hillary R. Clinton.

    I believe electing her will keep America, the media, the senate and congress in the same partisan death grip. I believe Hillary will be ineffective, and will not be able to reach over party lines to pass health care, or any other initiatives you hope she can accomplish. She will probably be driven from office, by a press core that hates her, and a festering angry electorate that will be deep into recession. I think the country could easily swing further right, over the long haul, if Hillary becomes our president. So, if she becomes our nominee, I would rather that the Dems, spend one more term in the wilderness, and put a unifier on the ticket. Someone that can actually allow America to heal a bit.

    I believe this in my bones. I’m not trying to be hateful or disrespectful to Hillary supporters. I just don’t think they actually understand what they are voting for.

  • Mark Wrote: With the proper support, even Hillary can whip the pants off anyone the Republicans choose to shove into the ring – provided the vote isn’t split or muted by protest votes.

    I feel confident that you are wrong. No wedge issue could unite the Republicans this year, except HRC. And swing voters will guarantee that. And a stay home black vote, will also help defeat her. I will do everything in my power to get Obama on the ticket. Or I will work hard to get a Republican on the ticket.

    I am a life long Democrat. I honestly believe this is a vote for the soul of the Democratic Party. And a vote for the Soul of America.

    I the next 30 years hangs in the balance. And I believe America is on the brink of going SERIOUSLY off track. I’m deeply afraid of a Hillary presidency.

  • I feel like I’m not expressing myself well, and I’m missing my main point in my posts. I think the easiest way to make my point is this.

    Put you finger on you jugular. Feel your pulse. Now, think about George Bush. Think about Iraq. Think about being lied into war. Think about the deficit. Think about our wounded soldiers. Think about being called a traitor in 2003 for your opposition to the war. Think about when Kerry gave his concession speech to George W. Bush.

    You feel that? That Thump, Thump, Thump of GWB hatred. The shivers going up your spine?

    That’s how republicans feel about Hillary.

    However smart or capable she is, there is no way she can lead America. Well, not anywhere I want to go.

  • …and that’s a good reason for a Democrat to vote Republican? That’s the part where I lose the tour every time.

    Because Republicans hate Hillary, it would be less damaging to America if that good ol’ squirrel-eater Mike “I’m fast with a cross” Huckabee ran the show? Mitt Romney with, as somebody already pointed out, his family-sized Gitmo – my, yes, that’ll improve America’s reputation!!! Rudi “my bum is full of statistics, want some?” Giuliani? Perfect!! “Today marks the beginning of a new era of prosperity for America; I personally added six bajillion new jobs just today! You can’t prove I didn’t!! 9-11!! 9-11!!!” Or how ’bout John McCain, the oldest president ever? He’s flip-flopped like a landed catfish on every issue for the last 2 years; that should be reassuring to countries that might be thinking about entering into a free trade agreement with the United States, a joint economic initiative; a military alliance.

    You’re right I hate Bush; they should plow Crawford under and sow it with salt.

    Hillary might well be divisive, but if the Democrats unite, at least the Democrats will be happy. If she can’t unite the country, that’ll just have to do. We’ve had 8 years of nobody but the Republicans being happy, and that has America circling the bowl. Happy Democrats and miserable Republicans couldn’t be worse. Republicans are nutty and destructive, and every extra term with a Republican president at the helm is like playing Russian Roulette with an extra round in the cylinder.

  • It appears CDS phenomenon is not exclusive to Republicans. I doubt the liberal cred of people who present CDS symptoms though.

  • Al Gore was seen as unacceptable eight years ago by the Ralph Nader people. How did that work out? Does anyone here recall that Karl Rove’s GOP was providing material support to the Greens? Why do you suppose that was?

    Maybe instead of just accepting MSM and GOP spin, a bit of skepticism?

  • Horselove Fat Wrote: It appears CDS phenomenon is not exclusive to Republicans. I doubt the liberal cred of people who present CDS symptoms though.

    I grew up in a commune, making tie dies, which my family sold out of a van at Grateful Dead shows and at Bread and Puppet Theatre. I was doing peaceful sit in’s at Sea Brook (Nuclear) Power Plant, before I was through puberty. I don’t need to verify how I’ve been voting since I was 18. Or which team I’ve been politically active for. Please don’t bother with this kind of dismissive tactic.

    And for the record, I don’t hate Hillary. I hate the state of our politics. I want nothing more than for Hillary to exercise her full authority as a powerful and distinguished senator from New York. A highly liberal place that will certainly re-elect her year after year, making her into a Power House like Diane Feinstein. Hillary’s skills are perfect for the senate.

    As capable and smart as I believe she is, I do not want the Clintons bringing us along for anther 8 years, like the 15 that have preceded us. Why? Because that’s how we got here. We will lose more ground to the far right. Of that I am certain. We will get “Rat Fucked” to death.

  • I agree completely with Steve. We lost in every example he cited, (’80, ’84, 88, 92, 04) with the exception of ’92, when we won with a plurality.

    Let’s not lose again.

  • I read this crap and what’s going to happen if the Democrats don’t quit fighting amonst themselves is we are going to have another 8 years of the f——g republicans

  • In the past I’ve expressed my wont to have Obama to key-in on “red meat” issues. The balance of the Supreme Court is such as issue. At this point, all of his “get along” talk doesn’t inspire (ironic, huh?) confidence that Obama knows how to run as a “full-blood” Democrat. Edwards remains my choice. And you can question Hillary’s baggage and approach, nonetheless I feel like I know what’s in Hillary’s heart (pro-healthcare and other progressive concepts). Unfortunately, Obama’s rhetoric leaves me empty; I wish he could change that. And until Obama sounds more like a Democrat, I don’t believe he can win in November.

  • I stand by my previous comment way up at #59.

    If this discussion is any indication, I see that the fissures are deep and I don’t see any Democratic candidate providing a unifying countenance.

    As a clear example, the whole MLK fuss was an opportunity to for someone to take up the reins of leadership, take the high road, and show us all the way to a healing “coming together” resolution. No one did.

    Everyone seems too invested in “winning” to be bothered with bravely leading us without first consulting a poll or making sure they push down the other guy. I know everyone promises to unite (even Bush promised that), but at some point the proof has to be in the pudding.

    Candidates telling me what they’ll do just isn’t enough – show me. This isn’t about degrees – it’s about authenticity.

    I don’t want to have to choose one candidate over another because I feel they aren’t as bad as the other choices. Picking the less troubling candidate isn’t really a good solution or a good choice, and really doesn’t offer any change from the norm.

    I tend to lean my preference toward Obama, but I continue to be disappointed by some of his actions, his obfuscation, and his empty words that sound good on the surface but too many times seem to leave a doubt as to their substance.

    All the candidates are guilty of this (and of attacking each other) to various degrees, and, in turn to contributing to the divisiveness – but this isn’t about degrees.

  • You feel that? That Thump, Thump, Thump of GWB hatred. The shivers going up your spine?

    That’s how republicans feel about Hillary.

    Thorin, the difference is that GWB has given Democrats, and all Americans really, a million reasons to hate him. Actual destructive things he has done, lies he has told, laws he has broken that were of consequence to the real lives of individuals.

    What, exactly, has HRC ever done to the Republicans to deserve the hate? Their hate is entirely manufactured because their ideology requires a “them” against which to pit “us.” Indeed, they seem to get along with her in the Senate – but then turn around on their campaign trails and savage her. Its all a front.

    Which leads me to two reactions. One, they can and will do the same to Obama when the need arises. Two, and more important to me, I can’t understand how Democrats are willing to let the Republicans manufactured hatred call the shots. The way to beat the bully is to stand up to him, not give in. If we believe it is wrong for them to demonize someone with no basis (not unlike how they demonized the word “liberal”) then we should stand up forcefully – stand up to them, stand up for her. Saying “we can’t nominate her because they hate her is to be complicit in an grave injustice the Republicans have committed.

  • Zeitgeist Wrote: Thorin, the difference is that GWB has given Democrats, and all Americans really, a million reasons to hate him. Actual destructive things he has done, lies he has told, laws he has broken that were of consequence to the real lives of individuals.

    What, exactly, has HRC ever done to the Republicans to deserve the hate?

    Obviously, they don’t agree with you. You know that right? Republicans don’t think they are evil.

    For whatever reason, the republicans see the Clintons as evil. Their hatred burns like white phosphorous. I see Bush in exactly the same way. Pure evil. The bastard sold out everything I hold dear about America.

    You don’t have to understand it, or agree with any of it to recognize how they feel: That the Clinton’s are totally immoral. They believe Bill sold out everything they love about America. Just as I do about Bush. They feel he besmirched a sacred institution, spewing sperm all over the white house. (and much, much more I don’t have the energy to lay out.)

    George W Bush exacted his revenge on the Clinton’s by destroying everything that the Clinton’s accomplished. He got his revenge. And ran what I consider a totally immoral presidency.

    I see Bush as thoroughly immoral. They see the Clinton’s as totally immoral.

    I am willing to forgive Bill his blowjob. They aren’t. They are willing to forgive George for lying us into war. I am not.

    At the end of they day, I know that nothing good can come from doubling down with another Clinton white house, and another cycle of revenge. We need a clean break. A fresh start.

    If we vote the Clinton’s back into the white house the words, toxic, partisan, rancor, and hatred will take on new meaning. The hate is already palpable.

    As attractive as revenge might seem, for the last 7 years, is not healthy or productive for our country. We need to reboot America and get some good progressive shit done. Obama & Edwards 08

  • So you’ve said they hate Bill for his immorality – what did Hillary do? We condone blaming the victim? We condone guilt by association?

    The “why” does matter. Otherwise we are shrugging our shoulders at a serious injustice and saying we’ll ratify it by letting them first define her as divisive for no reason, and then ratify it again by saying “we can’t elect her – she’s divisive!” What a great trick, if you can pull it off.

    Not to be too flippant, but if we do that, the terrorists win!

  • We are obviously talking past each other. I think I’ve made my point abundantly clear.

    Just look at the passion flying around on the democratic side, its clear people are not totally objective. We all see what we see. We all hold dear what we hold dear. And right, wrong, good and evil are not really objective realities.

    What is real, is the rancor, spite, bile, poison in our polarized and hyper partisan politics. I believe THAT is how we break out of our current problems. Someone who can take 53% of the vote. And an electoral collage landslide. That’s Obama in the general. That is not Clinton.

  • Americans tend to vote party line for lower offices, but spend a lot of energy and emotion worrying about the personality of presidential candidates (as this thread shows).

    In contrast, I think it is more important to vote for the person at lower levels, and party-line at the highest levels (President and Senator). At those levels, party affiliation determines judicial appointments, executive orders, and overall policies. A democratic president is unlikely to appoint a Scalia, Thomas, Roberts, or Alito. A democrat is likely to veto a bill that restricts access to abortions or which limits electoral access, and is more likely to cooperate with congress in writing and signing a bill that curbs unfair lending practices or Enron- or Halliburton-type corporate malfeasance. A Republican president is more likely to get you an Environmental Pollution Agency that supports “Healthy Forests and Clear Skies (Not)”, muzzles scientists, and refuses to share the reasoning behind its decisions, as opposed to an actual Environmental Protection Agency.

  • What makes anyone think they won’t do the same thing to Obama that they did to the Clintons?

    I heard supposed Democrats here talking about Bill’s impeachment as if he deserved it. According to Paul Krugman, it was payback exacted by Newt Gingrich for failing to enact tax cuts and then calling his bluff when he and the other Republicans tried to shut down the government. Remember that the Clintons were never convicted of anything, never found dirty — none of the many charges against them were ever substantiated despite their enemies best efforts. Calling the Clintons dirty, win-at-any-cost, machine politicians buys into the Republican noise machine’s smears. If we weren’t giving everyone the benefit of the doubt here, I’d suspect trolls are loose.

    Obama will be on the receiving end of all the same stuff, except we don’t know what they’ll find in his past. We don’t know his character well enough to know whether he can stand up to it. We don’t know whether he has the guts and the faith to persevere in putting forward his programs despite being inundated with crap, to go toe-to-toe with the Gingrich equivalent and not back down when they hold the government payroll forfeit (because they will), not negotiate some gutless compromise. We don’t know whether he will fight back or passively allow himself to be smeared, taking some mythical high road. We do know what the Clintons do in a similar situation.

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