This Week in God

First up from the God machine this week is one of the more painful religious stories I’ve seen in a while. I suspect very few people would ever want to interfere with parents’ rights and the religious upbringing of their children, but this does seem criminal.

Police [in Weston, Wis.] are investigating an 11-year-old girl’s death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.

An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday from diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

The girl, who was homeschooled, had not been to a physician since she was three. Family members begged her parents to take her to the hospital, but they refused.

When her health deteriorated, the girl’s aunt called authorities to seek help. “My sister-in-law, she’s very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors …,” she told a sheriff’s dispatcher in a call from California. “And she called my mother-in-law today … and she explained to us that she believes her daughter’s in a coma now and she’s relying on faith.”

When the dispatcher asked if an ambulance should be sent, the family member said the girl’s mother is “refusing” to seek medical care for her daughter. The dispatcher eventually got the family’s location, but by the time paramedics got Madeline Neumann to the hospital, she was declared dead.

Leilani Neumann, Madeline’s mother, said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because “our lives are in God’s hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do.”

I have no idea what the law is regarding these kinds of cases, but it sounds like criminal negligence to me. People can be as religious as they like, and believe whatever they choose. But when they let a little girl slip into a coma and die — from an easily treated ailment — without getting her care, it’s time for the state to intervene.

Also from the God Machine this week:

* Gallup polled Dems nationally along religious lines. Jewish Dems narrowly prefer Clinton to Obama (48% to 43%), Catholic Dems prefer Clinton to Obama by an even wider margin (56% to 37%), and Protestant Dems back Obama over Clinton (47% to 44%) though there’s a large racial gap within those numbers. Given this, how does Obama maintain an overall lead? With everyone else: “With Jewish and Protestant Democrats basically split in their preferences, and Catholics strongly in Clinton’s corner, Obama is able to make up the difference by running better than she does among Democrats with no religious preference (54% to 40%) and among those who practice non-Christian religions (61% to 32%).”

* After losing in court a few weeks ago, state lawmakers in Kansas passed another law this week to restrict some right-wing religious fanatics from protesting at funerals for U.S. troops killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.

* Starting Monday, the Christian Broadcasting Network, home to TV preacher Pat Robertson’s “700 Club,” will broadcast in high-def. I’m not sure who’d want to see Pat in that much detail, but that’s just me.

* And in Florida, the state Constitution has a specific provision to prevent government aid to religious ministries. Republicans and other conservative activists are now trying to get the provision removed from the state Constitution, in order to direct tax dollars to religious schools and faith-based social service groups. ”We can’t pay for state government, but now we’re going to pay for religion?” said Ron Meyer, a lawyer for the Florida Education Association. “That’s quite an irony.”

Candidate for the Darwin awards? But then again I doubt that pour unfortunated girl’s parents believed in evolution anyway.

  • …it’s time for the state to intervene.

    Where was God?

    In Oklahoma, (HB 2211) they’re proposing legislation that would force teachers to accept creationist answers to test questions as being “correct”. For example, How old is the Earth? 6,000 years old. (correct)

    What, in God’s name, is this country coming to? Must we wallow in ignorance? Are we just preparing for becoming a third world country?

    If the founders were brought back to life, i have to imagine that they’d be on a nationwide tour, smacking people across the back of the head with two by fours in hopes of knocking some sense into us. I do love to imagine the scathing letters to the editor that Franklin would be writing under pseudonyms.

  • It’s unfortunate, but far too often religion becomes a form of child abuse. This is an extreme case, but it’s far from unique.

    Everyone should be free to practice his own religion, but sometimes it’s horribly wrong to practice religion on one’s own children. Young children can’t be expected to distinguish their parents’ faith from utter nonsense, or to protect themselves from utter nonsense when they do recognize it.

  • Their statement that “we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do” says more about how little they know than about their doing anything positive for their daughter.

    One worries for their other three children.

  • This is a very sad unfortunate case of child abuse in the name of religion, but I think it is just the extreme case of a spectrum that begins with teaching a child that they are inherently “sinful”.

  • The saddest part about the Wisconsin story is that the more drug companies get exposed for marketing products that cause heart attacks or suicides, the more these people reject science instead of the Bush administration.

  • Where was God? Well, you could argue that he gave them a miracle, a subtle one in the form of diagnosis and treatment.

    It is an old joke, about the man who refused help as the floods came, stating god would help him. As his soul confronted God, he complained that God didn’t try to save him. “What do you mean?” God replied. “I sent those rescuers to you that you turned away!”

    Remember that when you have to argue with faith healers again.

  • “… We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do.”

    It works the other way around also. I wouldn’t know the ratio but I do know health providers make gross mistakes as well. And you _still_ have to fall into a much smaller category that is actionable. Long story short, you are at their mercy exactly like this little girl was in relation to her own parents.

  • I happen to believe that all religion is child molestation. I see nothing wrong with letting them enjoy their pagan innocence, at least until they come “free choice” individuals through taking part in a wider society than their families. Maybe when they go to school or reach whatever we consider the age of reason. Maybe even later.

    The primary requirement of law should be the protection of innocent life. If the religious rights of breeders over their spawn doesn’t come very far down the list from that, then the country which permits such liberties is itself cruel and insane.

  • Ed, I am with you. Even a cursory viewing of Jesus Camp is enough to show the level of indoctrination – abuse – inflicted upon our children, which is appalling.

    If a fraction of the Christians in this country and others acted in the spirit of what Christ taught the world would be a better place. Bush is a prime example. Mr Born Again, no help for the poor, no decent education, no insurance, 40 million people in America have “food insecurity” which means they don’t know where their next meal comes from and could very well be starving. Fuck these psudo Christians. Lex talked about our founding fathers taking a 2×4 to the heads of Americans, well Christ would smote the majority of our so called Christian population – and with good cause!

    I am not Christian but I follow the path Jesus walked closer than the vast majority of these so called Christians.

  • MdJoanne,

    Being Christian is almost always a far cry from being Christlike.

    Love, when organization and money are mixed in, is … at best, prostitution. Add legalistic doctrines and material property and you’ve got a real nightmare.

  • Their answer…”God wanted her to die to test our faith”. The stupidity of these fanatic brainwashed horrors to God is truly amazing. What’s next after creationism…the inquisition, the crusades…oh wait?

    Democracy…theocracy…idiocracy.

  • Ed @ 14: “Being Christian is almost always a far cry from being Christlike.”

    That’s quite a broadside and equating religion for children as child molestation, as you did up the thread goes even further. I do not have strong religious convicitions, still I find your remarks offensive. My wife and I took our two-year old with us to mass on Easter. We’ll be turning ourselves in to the thought-police directly.

  • “I happen to believe that all religion is child molestation.”
    You are entitled to your views, but as much as you are allowed to say it, that is a simply revolting thing to say.

    How should anyone judge whether or not someone else’s actions are the “just” or “right” ones? When one lives in a country with a freedom of religion it is difficult for him/her to make faith based decisions without those who don’t understand those decisions jumping all over him/her because it doesn’t agree with them. I’m not placing myself on either side of this issue, I just don’t understand how anyone has the right to judge other people especially when they may not understand another’s reasoning. It just helps establish more people of a condescending nature in this country.

  • We are a homeschooling family for over 17 years now (totally NOT for religious reasons, but for educational ones) and what makes me upset is how all homeschooling famiiies get lumped in with these kinds of people. The ( often fundamentalist Christian) religious community presents itself as the starters of home education (it isn’t) and the defenders of it (it isn’t), and acts as if everyone who home educates does so for their brand of religious reasons (not even close to the majority do). Yet the public has bought this idea to a large extent.

    Home education has been a wonderful thing for our family and many other families in numerous ways and I hate to see it being lumped with child abuse, when it is more like the polar opposite.

    Thanks for listening to my rant 🙂

  • First, talking about the “Darwin Awards” in the wake of the tragic death of a little girl or calling all religion “child abuse” is madness. It’s ugly comments like those that convince conservatives that liberals are out to take their Bibles away, and make it that much harder for the country to move forward. Extreme Christianity, of the kind that lead to the death of this young girl, shouldn’t be answered by extreme secularism. That girl needed a social worker and a trip to the hospital, not a lesson in ideology.

    On the other hand…

    “…I just don’t understand how anyone has the right to judge other people especially when they may not understand another’s reasoning. It just helps establish more people of a condescending nature in this country.”

    I’m sorry, but sometimes people do need to be judged. Negligence is a crime, even if the parents had the best intentions. No child should die of treatable disease in the United States in the 21st century because we’re afraid to “judge” the parents.

    Come on, Carpetbagger Report commenters. Show some common sense – and some empathy.

  • truly amazing the idiotic (and outright criminal) things you can get away with if you call what you’re doing a religion.

  • The law on this has been settled for some time now. An adult is permitted to refuse treatment for any reason including a religious one. But they may not prohibit a child from receiving treatment a doctor views as necessary on religious grounds — and refusing to seek treatment can be viewed as endangering the life of the child, which can lead to punishment and will — and in this case, according to a sidebar on the story, has — permit a court to remove their other children. (The cases mostly have dealt with Jehovah’s Witlesses refusing blood transfusions, but I believe similar cases have involved other beliefs.)

    There is a question — which has been decided differently by different judges — as to whether or at what age a teenager can give his own consent to refusing treatment — obviously with the consent of his parents since I don’t believe there’s ever been a case of a child refusing treatment against the wish of his parents. However, this seems to deal with ages 14-16. Certainly no judge would accept a child’s right to refuse treatment at age ten, even assuming she had been consulted. (Of course this is moot, since the refusal wasn’t discovered until the child was already dead.)

  • I am exceptionally empathetic – to a fault at times. My empathy goes to that child who is DEAD. My empathy (and sympathy) goes to the children who are forced out of a real science education, who have to try at a very young age what to believe. These things affect their whole life going forward. And they – and us as a society – lose.

    I have NO, NONE, NADA empathy for ignorance. None is earned or deserved.

  • I am a chtistian, and I believe that GOD has given us both the power of prayer and modern medicine. These people belong in jail for murder, period.

  • I am a christian, and I believe that GOD has given us both the power of prayer and modern medicine. These people belong in jail for murder, period.

  • I am a type 1 diabetic (the autoimmune kind, the kind you get when you’re young), and when I was taken to the hospital for diagnosis I was nearly dead (I had a respiratory illness, and so the diabetes wasn’t as apparent). I can honestly say that the idea of any parents watching that happen to their daughter, knowing what was happening, and choosing not to act in the physical realm to prevent her death is chilling. It’s not pretty… she probably lost 20 or more pounds, was little more than skin and bone, couldn’t drink enough fast enough to feel anything other than terribly thirsty, and by the end, was panting heavily as her body tried to dump some acid through her lungs, and slipping in and out of consciousness. And her parents watched all this unfolding over weeks, and prayed.

    I hope they’re tried for murder.

  • #19 & #22 Good comments.

    I had an interesting conversation with my pastor (a liberal Dem supporting Obama, does that make him OK?) about extreme fundies vs. extreme secularists. His point is that the extreme secularists are as much about dogma as the extreme fundies.

    I can understand where Ed is coming from (the way that the fundies kids are raised is very scary and cult-like), but you simply cannot lump all religions together. There are many religious organizations that are OK, trying to make a difference, are tolerant of other views, do believe in science (and the power of medicine), in a full education for children, care for the earth, etc. But religion as “child molestation”? All religion? Really? That is insulting to me. If you met my sons, both young men now, who are loving, open-minded, inquisitive, creative, and were both taken to church/Sunday School since they were babies, you would have to re-think. They both think for themselves, ask questions, don’t believe blindly in anything. The younger one is very much into science.

    The story of the 11-year-old girl is tragic. Why do people fail to see that God comes in many forms, ie doctors. The story at #10 is perfect.

  • Among the dumb lines in the story:

    The girl’s father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR “as soon as the breath of life left” his daughter’s body.

    Starting CPR hardly makes his actions any less objectionable. IV fluids and insulin would have easily saved her. CPR would not do a thing for her, and was as futile as praying for her. She was undoubtably severely fluid depleted at the time of death.

    I’m not sure what the legal response to this will be. There are situations, such as refusal of transfussions by Jehovah’s Witnesses, where religious beliefs are legally respected but in that case alternative treatments have been developed, and there have been cases where blood has been given to children despite the objections of the parents. Regardless of how the law treats this situation, it is certainly insane to allow one’s child to die out of the belief that prayer can substitute for medical treatment of DKA.

  • Hannah @ 26:

    It’s great that your kids are loving, open-minded, ecologically aware, tolerant, educated people. One question: Do they still believe in the Easter Bunny? How about Santa Claus?

    I think there are very few people out there who think all religions are equally bad no matter what. What religious people don’t get about secularists is that it is hard for us to fathom how otherwise wonderful, intelligent, educated adults can believe something so stupid. This is compounded by the fact that these supposedly educated adults take as their evidence a book that they are forced to admit is transparently false.

    That’s why non-fundie religious people can be even more dangerous in a way. At least the fundies believe everything in the Bible. Liberal religious people recognize most of the Bible for the crock of shit that it is, yet feel free to cherry-pick the parts they want to believe. It’s the inerrant word of God, don’t you know, except for the words you don’t like.

    I can’t speak for all secularists, but for me, being called names by a religious person is not very troubling. It’s like someone who spent his life chasing Bigfoot telling me I believe some weird things. Who cares what that person thinks? I can only hope his kids don’t grow up thinking Bigfoot is real, or some other equally dumb thing, like the story of Jesus.

  • On March 29th, 2008 at 1:06 pm, joey said:
    Their answer…”God wanted her to die to test our faith”. The stupidity of these fanatic brainwashed horrors to God is truly amazing.

    I agree with your comments, joey. When I hear/read explanations such as “God wanted X to happen to test my/our faith,” or “So-and-so died because God needed another angel in heaven,” I think, “What kind of warped, twisted, cruel bastard do these people worship?” And yet the Bible says that God is love? I just don’t get it. It’s one of the (many) reasons I had stop the insanity and follow a path other than Christianity (nothing against Jesus – as Ed @ 14 said: “Being Christian is almost always a far cry from being Christlike.”)

  • Muskogee Okie (#4): umm, that is actually a satire from the redDiscovery Institute. I promise not to cue in any “Okie jokes” here, since it did take me all of about 4 minutes to finally spot that very very little “re” in the ad, and for at least the first 3 minutes I was sure you were onto something..

  • #28 Ummmm… OK…

    Liberal Christians do NOT think the Bible is a “crock of shit”, thankyouverymuch. While we do not take most of it literally nor cherry-pick as the fundies do, we realize that the Bible is many things: a book of laws (of the Jews), a book of history, poetry, creation stories (metaphors to explain the world as could be understood by simpler people), etc. The Gospels of the New Testament tell of Jesus Christ (God come to earth) and this is what liberal Christians focus on: His message of love, tolerance, care for everyone. Jesus said he came to give us a new law to replace all of the old: Love God, love one another as yourself. (Really awful stuff, eh? :-P)

    FYI, I have no quarrel with secularists as I can see their point of view. So let’s not denegrate each other. As liberals, we’re supposed to be accepting, open-minded, etc, etc.

  • Tom: Yes, it’s a satire.

    But I know from reading your comments for a long time that you’re a smart guy. You wouldn’t get sucked in by satire unless it it was close enough to the truth to be very believable. This one had me suckered too, but only for a few seconds this time. It happens to me all the time when people circulate pieces from The Onion.

  • Lex (#2 above) asked…
    Must we wallow in ignorance?
    The answer is yes, if you follow the teachings of Jesus of Nazereth. He openly condemned “the wisdom of the wise”, saying you should be “like little children”. All the early church fathers agreed, to the point of actively attacking all education other than religious education. “What has Jeruselem to do with Athens?” (Tertullian)
    I’m glad many modern Christians don’t take that view, but what they’re doing is superimposing their moral code (which I agree with mostly) on their religion, which has a moral code they (or I, not that it matters) don’t agree with. That’s why the Bible gets “interpreted”. They assume the Bilble is good, and when they come to a part they disagree with, they “interpet”it. They certainly are free to do that, but it’s intellectually dishonest. The Bible should be read for what it is, literally, and then either accepted or rejected (in part or in whole).

    In other words, “liberal” Christians lack consistancy. They’re better than their religion, so they basically make up a modified version, but they haven’t finished the job. They should continue their efforts by looking at the rest of their beliefs to see if they actually are good. (Do heaven and hell exist? Is the idea of salvation moral? Was Jesus good?) it would be a worthwhile exercise.

  • Pro-life outside the womb?
    Why is the death of this child any more my business than one inside a womb? It just IS???? Are we really falling back on visceral feelings? A slippery slope, if ever I saw one!

    If you’re pro-choice, this should be as horrific to you as abortion, but no less legal.
    What OTHER medical care can the state force on us if this decision should not be theirs?

    Freedom has an ugly side. I accept it as a cost of its benefits.

  • somewhere ten or fifteen years ago there was a massachusetts case where parents were convicted for starving at least one (there may have been two) small children to death. the father “commanded” the mother to breastfeed one of the children and forbade said child to have other food, the mother had no breastmilk, the child starved to death, slowly. they were christianists of some sort and claimed their religion as their defense. they lost. the father at least served time.

    at least in massachusetts, parents/guardians are legally bound to provide adequate nutrition/medical care and failure to so do can lead to criminal charges.

    the commonwealth, despite its problems, has some good laws. in addition to the laws which brought the parents in the above case to trial, a person convicted of crimes of sexual deviancy (rape, child sexual abuse), after completing whatever prison term they receive, is again brought before the court for a trial to determine sexual dangerousness. a person determined to be sexually dangerous is then held in a secure facility to receive “treatment” until they are no longer sexually dangerous (person can request a new SD trial every year or two years, i can’t remember). that sure beats what i hear about from other states where people serve their sentences and then they’re on the street until they do it again. people who commit sexual crimes against minors, particularly non-relatives, have a very high rate of recidivism and are the last people you want recycled back into the population every one to ten years.

    do they have other children? i would certainly expect that child protection services should have their nose right in there with respect to other surviving kids (remembering, of course, what a shoestring budget these people work with and having pity on the dedicated among them). i will be surprised if this current hideous case does not have indictments handed down. wisconsin never struck me as having a strongly nutty flavor.

  • 17. On March 29th, 2008 at 1:38 pm, vdm said:

    “I happen to believe that all religion is child molestation.”

    You are entitled to your views, but as much as you are allowed to say it, that is a simply revolting thing to say.

    No more revolting than when the theocratics say that all homosexuals are child molesters. Or that they’re abominations and should not be allowed to live. But somehow the expressions of that sort of sentiment from religious individuals doesn’t seem to be quite as much of a problem. Go figure…

    34. On March 30th, 2008 at 2:45 pm, williamjacobs said:

    Pro-life outside the womb?

    Why is the death of this child any more my business than one inside a womb?

    Um – because in one case we’re talking about a viable, existing individual, while in another we’re talking about a potential future individual who doesn’t exist yet?

    Because what’s inside the womb is not yet a child?

    Because it’s none of your business what choices a pregnant female chooses to make herself about what to do with the pregnancy? While it is everyone’s concern how a child, who is an individual in its’ own right, is being treated by its’ parents?

    It just IS???? Are we really falling back on visceral feelings? A slippery slope, if ever I saw one!

    The only slippery slope here is the one you’re trying to build out of illogical irrationalities based on your personal brand of religious insanity.

    If you’re pro-choice, this should be as horrific to you as abortion, but no less legal. What OTHER medical care can the state force on us if this decision should not be theirs?

    As others have pointed out above, no one can force any sort of medical care on an adult who has reached the age of consent. So your question is disingenuous at best.

    The state can decided that those who are under the age of consent should be given certain levels of medical care if they experience certain health problems while undir the age of consent. I’m relatively sure you could find out all of the gory details yourself – if your comment was anything more than concern trolling in support of your anti-choice beliefs.

  • Comments are closed.