This Week in God

October 14, 2006

First up from the God machine is a story about a local government realizing the inherent problem in asking people to vote in a house of worship.

Orthodox Jews in a Cleveland suburb unhappy they had to vote in a Christian church were relieved the polling place has been moved.

The Cuyahoga County elections board approved Cleveland Heights City Hall as the new polling place on Friday.

The elections board had assigned voters in a neighborhood with a large population of Orthodox Jewish residents to a Christian church after the former spot, a school building, was closed.

Some Orthodox Jews complained, saying they wouldn’t feel comfortable going into a place of worship that wasn’t their own.

And I don’t blame them. Pick a faith tradition with which you strongly disagree, and then imagine local officials telling you that if you want to vote, you have to go this group’s house of worship.

I can fully appreciate the practical and logistical concerns in many communities — sometimes, there just isn’t room in a precinct other than the local school or house of worship. But there’s some evidence to suggest that voting in a church affects how people vote, and given the circumstances in Cleveland, it might also affect whether people vote.

Next up is a story from Montana about the ages of rocks vs. the rock of ages.

Montana Gov. Brian Schweitzer (D) was speaking last week to a group of school children, parents, and teachers about global warming. Schweitzer asked how many in the crowd thought the Earth was hundreds of millions of years old. Most of the children raised their hands.

He then asked how many believed the planet was less than a million years old. At least two people, including state Rep. Roger Koopman (R), one of Schweitzer’s biggest political opponents, raised their hands.

It prompted Schweitzer to make fun of his rival during an interview.

During an interview later with the Bozeman Daily Chronicle, Schweitzer noted Koopman’s response. He said some people believe the planet is only 4,000 to 6,000 years old, despite geological evidence to the contrary.

Schweitzer said he needs support from a state Legislature that will help move Montana’s agenda forward, “not people who think the Earth is 4,000 years old.”

Koopman, of course, took offense, saying his beliefs are based on “scientific investigations.” He didn’t point to any specifics.

Schweitzer, as far as I can tell, is perhaps the only governor in the country who will openly mock creationists in public. At an absolute minimum, it’s hard not to admire his courage.

And to wrap up this week’s edition of This Week in God, I wanted to bring some attention to a question from this week’s Washington Post/ABC News poll that seems to have been completely overlooked.

* “[D]o you think a political leader should or should not rely on his or her religious beliefs in making policy decisions?”

I had assumed the response would be overwhelmingly on the side of relying on religious beliefs. I wasn’t even close — 61% of poll respondents said political leaders should not rely on religion when making policy decisions. That’s up six points from an April 2005 poll, and seven points from 2003.

Do you suppose this is an extension of people’s disappointment with Bush? People have seen a few too many policy decisions based on faith and have decided we shouldn’t do this anymore?

Either way, it was a surprising — and encouraging – result.

Good for Schweitzer. Makes me want to move to Montana.

  • 61% of poll respondents said political leaders should not rely on religion when making policy decisions. – Mr. CB

    Whew…

    Henrietta! Run get the smelling salts, I’m feeling a little lightheaded. Mercy.

  • I love it when any event comes along to prove Mencken was wrong back in 1924 when he said “nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.” More such events, please!

  • I just happened to think that the story out of Cleveland is of a piece with the GOP effort to depress the Democratic vote in that state. You think Ken Blackwell didn’t take into consideration that Orthodox Jews still mostly vote Democratic when his gang decided they’d put the polling place in a church. And of course, when the vote was less, they’d be able to say “we just don’t understand why more people in this country don’t take more interest in their government, it’s soooooo sad.” And they’d even say it with a straight face.

    Scumballs.

  • I had to vote in a church a few times, but it was one of those unconventional churches that looked more like a warehouse than a church, so I’m not sure how much it influenced anyone. In fact, the bigger issue for people would have been finding the church in the first place, as it was hidden up on a hill in a wooded area. But you can bet I made sure to find it. That’s where I voted for the first time, when I registered solely to help re-elect Clinton.

  • It’s election time and the GOP are dusting off the old playbook, ” How to throw an election”, but methinks that folks are finally wising-up. But I betthat the state police will still be called out in black neighborhoods where GOP candidates have a chance.

    And big kudos to Gov.Schweitzer, just turn on the enlightenment , and the cockroaches scamper away.

  • I don’t have a problem voting in a church. That’s what graffiti is for.

    There’s a certain frisson about voting for their “enemies”.

  • …..61% of poll respondents said political leaders should not rely on religion when making policy decisions. That’s up six points from an April 2005 poll, and seven points from 2003.

    Per my usual rant, CB, any elected official that uses religion for any reason during the execution of his/her duties as a legal member of the Government of the United States should be ridden out of town on a rail. After tarring and feathering, of course.

  • Schweitzer, as far as I can tell, is perhaps the only governor in the country who will openly mock creationists in public.

    Probably because he’s immunized himself by consistently describing himself as a regular churchgoer.

    FWIW, Alaska Gov. Frank Murkowski, a Catholic, quietly rebuffed creationist loony Carl Baugh (even other creationists think he’s off-base) when Baugh delivered the keynote address at the Governor’s Prayer Breakfast this year. Murkowski left the event just as Baugh was beginning to speak — the Catholic Church accepts an old Earth, see — because he had to be somewhere else: at a premiere party for “Ice Age 2” with John Leguizamo.

  • If you can’t get a real sense for the age of the earth in Montana I don’t know where you can. But, Schweitzer is planning on making Montana a massive producer of syn fuel from coal with potentially far reaching environmental consequences. Another instance of trying to sustain the unsustainable system built on cheap oil. I don’t think future generations of Montanans are going to be happy with the product. Beware those messiahs burning the rock of ages.

  • Re: 61%

    Once upon a time in America, most people assumed there were certain things a person with religious beliefs could not or would not do (lie, cheat, torture, start wars for no reason). Now they’re starting to realize that the religious beliefs of people like Thomas Jefferson or Ben Franklin were meshed with Reason and the Golden Rule formed the basis of their morality.

    And in the other corner we have President MonkeyShines and his merry men. Lots of “religion,” no reason, zero morality. We’ve heard a lot about religion and faith and God from this cretin and now these words mean “Watch out, shifty bastard comin’ through.” No wonder more people find the idea of a leader using their “religious beliefs” to guide them alarming. Who the hell knows what that could lead to anymore?

    Schweitzer, as far as I can tell, is perhaps the only governor in the country who will openly mock creationists in public.

    That’s just so bloody depressing.

  • I think if a political leader has trouble separating his religious beliefs from his legal responsiblilities, he should not be a political leader. If Jefferson wanted us to get anything, surely it was that. Even Lincoln with the comment widely attributed to him that he was willing to pray not that God was on our side but that we were on God’s side, shows an awareness of the problem.

    We have to realize that absent a divine figure walking in our midst(and when have we had THAT?) all religious judgements are fundamentally human judgements clothed in some nebulous “religious” authority. The more the Christian right bangs on any of their drums(be they anti-abortion, prayer in school, gay marriage, ad nauseum) , the further they stray from the region of sense. They’re like the General whose lost control of his army, no one listens to him any more but all he knows how to do is issue more orders.

  • Voting in churches has bothered me for years – and there’s no doubt in my mind that it can make a subtle but important difference in the minds of wavering, undecided voters. Quite a few elections have been decided by a number of votes in the single digits, so every vote makes a difference.

    How can it even be legal to have voting in churches? Why doesn’t Separation of Church and State prevent this?

    I’ll be working as a Polling Inspector for the November election and, wouldn’t ya know it, our precinct is voting in a church. Grrrrrr.

  • “Schweitzer asked how many in the crowd thought the Earth was hundreds of millions of years old. Most of the children raised their hands.” — CB

    Kids love big numbers. “Millions and millions, zillions, bazillions, gadzillions”… all of these resonate much beter than “4 thousand”, because they’re harder to imagine. For a kid, the world is much bigger than it is for u, so it’s only fitting that it should be as large in space as it is in time.

    Re voting in churches: If we could vote during the weekend, we could vote in schools. Much more appropriate, too. More appropriate even than my town’s firehouse polling station. Though, perhaps, not more appropriate than a city Hall.

  • I remember an election in a Catholic Church one time. I didn’t have any qualms about being there, but I don’t know about others. The worst thing was this was when the Repugs started sending out their poll watching bullies to intimidate voters and election officials. On an amusing note, the Church had taken down items off the walls in the meeting room where the election was held and stacked them along the floor. As you went to the voting machine, over in the corner was a smiling portrait of the pope on the floor gazing up at the voter.

    The Post/ABC Poll probably is a reflection of people getting tired of religious “leaders” who are hypocrites out for power, as are the “elected” officials they support.

  • You’re way off on this one.

    First of all, people voting in churches are NOT voting in the shrine — they are usually voting in out-buildings, often separate from the shrine.

    Two, churches are special in most communities as having sufficient PARKING for an election. Would it be better to vote in a commercial store or mall? No, churches are good place to hold elections because few churches are offensively branded.

    Three, churches have been used in American elections for 220 years. Most of our communities have gathered in churches for yearly events that have no particular religious purpose, such as Lincoln’s birthday (remember this holiday, from before the GOP eliminated it?), or political meetings.

    Four, if people are so fussy don’t like being NEAR churches, they can vote absentee. Voting isn’t praying.

    Five, I’m an atheist. I much prefer voting in the church down the street, with ample parking, than the car dealership they schedule for odd-year elections, which has no surplus parking since THE PLACE IS FULL OF CARS.

  • “Voting in churches has bothered me for years – and there’s no doubt in my mind that it can make a subtle but important difference in the minds of wavering, undecided voters.”

    You think they are wavering at the actual polls? Most people, and I mean 99%, are sure who they are voting for before they get to the church, and almost no candidate any more is specifically associated with a denomination. Some sensitivity would be needed by the registrar — for instance, if one candidate is a outspoken Catholic, a Catholic shrine wouldn’t be acceptable.

    “Quite a few elections have been decided by a number of votes in the single digits, so every vote makes a difference.”

    Most elections these days are STOLEN by disenfranchizing voters before the election.

    “How can it even be legal to have voting in churches? Why doesn’t Separation of Church and State prevent this?” –Randy Russell

    Churches are not paid for this service to the community. They do not pass out religious literature to voters. They are not being sponsored by the government.

    Here is the root of the separation theory:

    “”Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”.”

    Establishment is creating an official denomination. Voting in a church has nothing to do with establishment. Indeed, I’m sure you can find synagogues in use as polling places, and probably a few mosques.

  • I remember the ’88 election when I was in college at Baylor University in Waco. I was an election judge and my polling place was the cafeteria of a predominantly black and hispanic elementary school. As voters came in during the lunch hour, the kids would gather around behind the upright cafeteria tables that blocked off the polling area and yell “Bush sucks!”
    Kids, ya gotta love ’em.

  • Up in Washington State, my polling place was the library of the Junior High. Parking could be difficult during school hours. My church was also a polling place. I doubt any church would have polling in the sanctuary space itself (that I would object to), but voting in the fellowship hall, classrooms, gym, etc. I don’t see a problem. Even though I’m Christian, I would have no problem voting in a synagogue or mosque. In fact, I think it’s interesting seeing the buildings of other houses of worship.

    In Oregon we all vote by mail and I love it. We get our ballots a couple of weeks before the election, and can fill them in and turn in anytime between receipt and 8 pm on election day. It’s quite relaxing to not have to wait in line, and just sit at the kitchen table to mark the ballot. We use the opti-scan paper ballots (I assume that’s what they’re called – fill in the bubble with a pencil). I’m not aware of any problems…

  • Yeh, christians would never do anything bad. Nothing like killing innocent people in the inquisitions, or burning and hanging “witches”. Or bombing buildings in Oklahoma City killing little children. Or showing up to funerals with signs that say “God Hates Fags” Not christians!

  • “:In Oregon we all vote by mail and I love it.”

    Regrettably, voting by mail is an excellent way NOT to get your vote counted. In Los Angeles, for instance, absentee ballots are NOT counted in partial recounts. In many areas of the country, absentee ballots may easily end in the trash.

    Our soldiers are being forced to submit their votes to Donald Rumsfeld by mail. Sounds like he gets to decide if he likes them.

    “I’m not aware of any problems…–Hannah

    Famous last words.

    “Though Oregonians cast votes on paper, those paper ballots are tallied by machine — the same machines getting flack nationwide for their vulnerability to fraud or malfunction. Voter-rights groups say Oregon needs a mandatory audit, requiring a hand count of some portion of ballots to compare with the machine-tallied results.”

    http://tinyurl.com/ykdo6x

    Your votes are being counted by tabulation computers loaded with SECRET software provided by rightwing companies, which has been tested and certified by other rightwing companies.

    Those testing/certification companies provide the test results ONLY to the companies themselves. They have NEVER reported a problem to the public in the 8 years these crooked voting systems have been foisted upon us.

  • ” Not christians!” –meowomon

    Many Christians would never do those things.

    The people who did were deeply-twisted.

    In the case of Tim McVey, it was the Iraq War which twisted him, not Christianity.

    In the case of Fred and his backwood’s freaks, accusing them of ‘Christianity’ is like accusing the Ku Klux Klan of ‘Christianity,’ or Hitler.

    Racists are not Christians, Jews, or Muslims, even if they think they are.

  • I was raised Presbyterian. The polling place in our neighborhood was always, and probably still is, a synagogue. In addition to our twice-yearly visits to vote, we used to stop by periodically when the local arts council held art shows there. I never felt like secret Judaic vibrations were infiltrating my brain and causing me to believe the Messiah had, in fact, not yet arrived. My only feeling about the site was that it was nice the Ohev Shalom congregation was so civic-minded. After I moved to the city, my polling place for a number of years was a Southern Baptist church. Now, there’s a bunch I really don’t agree with. So what? As was pointed out above, voting is not held in the area where services are held, but in spaces used for more secular activities.Anybody who would not vote because their polling place is a house of worship of some faith not their own is, well, a lot less civic-minded than the folks at Ohev Shalom.

  • It was going to be in the social hall, entered from the parking lot. There are no religious symbols there. But lots of non-Christians object to the threat of proselytizing and remember their ancestors being slaughtered or forcefully converted. Now do you understand?

  • The threat of proselytizing? Its freakin’ election day, both the Dem and GOP poll watchers would kick out anyone harassing voters. Neither party wants to offend voters of any creed 2 minutes before they go into the voting booth.

    If there is a sect (or denomination) of murderers at large in your town, please do call the police. Or if you mean you blame a present-day group for the evil their ancestors may have done in the past, then I’d suggest an easier way to find religious bigotry would be to look in the mirror.

  • I understand as much, and no more, as I did before your finely-nuanced and detailed explanation, Mr. Ed. At least one of my own ancestors, as it happens, was slaughtered for professing a forbidden faith. He was a Scottish Presbyter, murdered by English troops for refusing to conform to the state religion of his day. My Irish Catholic ancestors, too, suffered hundreds of years of oppression by those infidel Anglicans (and by some Presbyterians, as well.) But this is America – still, and for as long as we can keep it, America, where my sister and her family intermittently attend an Episcopalian church, with no fear or loathing of the congregants, much less of the building, because of their affiliation with that same Anglican church.

  • In Pa., elections officials have come up with a new polling place, a mosque. Some folks are reluctant to vote there and elections officials refuse to hand out absentee ballots. LINK

  • I was relieved to know I’m not alone in feeling voting in a church, any church or place that anyone practices their religion is really biased against those who do not worship there. My community in NW Florida is a very religious one which, may be why this contempt against separation of church and state exits in the first place. I noticed very disturbing elements in 2004 that raised my level of concern. I noticed the churches packed (at the Sunday am level) the night before the presidential voting. It struck me later that Bush gave the leaders of these same groups “faith based initiatives”. I think this relationship has proven to be a dangerous precident for our democratic future and I shall call my representives and mention we have a large community center that would make a much saner voting place and comply with the wisdoms we used before our government got overthrown by a network that likes to place people where they do not belong for their own agenda. (see PNAC-Rebuilding America’s Defenses).

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