Thomas Jefferson smacks down Rick Scarborough

Guest Post by Morbo

As Carpetbagger mentioned the other day, the Rev. Rick Scarborough, a kind of poor man’s Jerry Falwell, held a two-day conference in the nation’s capital this week to lament the [tag]persecution[/tag] of [tag]Christians[/tag] he insists is rampant in American society.

Those poor fundamentalist Christians! They have the Republican leadership of the House and Senate in a headlock. The White House kowtows to them. They have the power to scuttle Supreme Court nominees. Their preachers collect millions every year tax free and have seemingly unlimited access to the airwaves — yet they are persecuted!

I was not at this meeting, but I did read that Scarborough and some of his allies attempted to draft [tag]Thomas Jefferson[/tag] on their side. To hear them tell it, the author of the Declaration of Independence was little more than an 18th Century Pat Robertson in a powdered wig.

Scarborough really should read more books — or have someone read them to him. We know exactly where Jefferson stood on the question of Christianity because he told us. Jefferson was nowhere near Scarborough’s neighborhood.

In a remarkable 1819 letter to William Short, Jefferson discoursed at length upon the dogma of conventional Christianity. In this letter, Jefferson lists specifically what he does not accept from that faith. He called these features “artificial systems, invented by ultra-Christian sects.”

These include, in Jefferson’s own words:

“The immaculate conception of Jesus, his deification, the creation of the world by him, his miraculous powers, his resurrection and visible ascension, his corporeal presence in the Eucharist, the Trinity, original sin, atonement, regeneration, election, orders or Hierarchy, etc.”

Yikes! Tom, there go the red states!

Jefferson was a fundamentalist Christian? Sure — he was just the type of fundamentalist Christian who rejects the immaculate conception, the divinity of Jesus and the Trinity.

Also, remember this: Jefferson once took a knife to the New Testament, removing all of the material he did not believe in — any passages with miraculous overtones — and titled it “The Life and Morals of Jesus Christ.” Some people call it the “Jefferson Bible.” You can still buy copies today.

Jefferson was not an atheist. He admired the moral teaching of Jesus and believes in a deistic god that set the universe in motion. But Jefferson despised the ultra-conservative Christian clergy of this day and believed they had corrupted the doctrines of Jesus for their own ends; he fervently hoped for the rise of a religion in America based on reason.

Jefferson was a sworn enemy of those who would assail freedom of conscience, as the Religious Right of his day did constantly. The Jefferson Memorial in Washington contains one of his most famous quotations: “I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny imposed upon the mind of man.”

It’s ironic that fundamentalists sometimes site this passage to “prove” Jefferson’s religiosity. The “tyranny” he pledged to oppose was fostered by ultra-conservative religious leaders!

The passage comes from an 1800 letter to Benjamin Rush, a physician in Philadelphia. Jefferson noted that some religious leaders in America were still clinging to the hope that their faith would be established by law. He called out two by name: the Episcopalians and the Congregationalists.

Dashing their hopes, Jefferson wrote, “The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes, and they [the preachers] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough too in their opinion.”

Nice try, Rick Scarborough. Now get your mitts off of Jefferson. He belongs to our side, not yours.

“The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion

As they are lifting comments out of context, maybe they can run with this;>

  • Dont you get it? When fighting to impose the morals of Christ, you’re exempt from actually having to follow them. You can lie, cheat, steal and kill. You can commit any sin imaginable, when fighting for the cause. Well all but one. No sex, except for making babies.

  • Even if Jefferson was a Bible-thumper, he and the other members of the Constitutional Convention omitted any mention of God, or Jesus for that matter, out of the document, just that little thing about not respecting an establishment of religion.
    I would think that if they intended our nation to be a Christian nation, they would have made their intentions clear in the document that created this nation, instead of leaving it for religious leaders to tell us what their intentions were. Kind of like how they claim to know exactly what God’s thinking.
    Just my opinion

  • After 32 years teaching large university classes, I believe that ignorance of what the Founding Fathers did and said is one of the signal tragedies of modern education. Every little school house in rural America (including mine) used to teach Jefferson, the Bill of Rights (including total separation of Church and State), the significance of the Fourth of July, and so on. Miss Georgia Brown (my third grade teacher) knew that Paso Robles CA was overwhelmingly Protestant and anti-Catholic in the 1940s, but she assured us that every one of us had a right to our own religious beliefs (including non-belief) in this country. She was in her fiftieth year of teaching, and she packed more authority and “moral wallop” than any preacher, priest or parent in town.

  • If Jo Scar got in a one-on-one discussion with someone who can quote Jefferson and other Founding Fathers he would be dust and he knows it that is why he pulls this shit only in places he won’t get called on it. Typical of a pol/talking head and typical of one of a representative of the new GOP – cherry picking from the Founding Fathers (and other) what helps them while “conveniently” ignoring that which is contradictory from those same people.

  • Shake off all fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind faith.
    — Thomas Jefferson

    My personal favorite.

  • Given that Jefferson was the guy who did all he could to create the Separation of Church and State that Reverend Goat-Roper says doesn’t exist, it is truly mind-boggling that this moron could claim Jefferson as being on his side. I mean, who was it who wrote the Virginia law on freedom from religion??????

  • And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

    -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

    But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

    -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

    I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.

    -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote “Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?”)

  • Excellent post. I learned about Jefferson from it especially the letter rejecting immaculate conception etc. (I didn’t know he ever put such opinions in writing). There are however two odd sentences.

    “Jefferson was not an atheist. He admired the moral teaching of Jesus and believes in a deistic god that set the universe in motion.”

    Now it is clearly true that Jefferson was not an atheist because he believed in a deistic god that set the universe in motion, but what does that have to do with admiring the moral teaching of Jesus. I am an atheist and I admire the moral teaching of Jesus.

    OK not quite all of it (I don’t like saying “let the dead bury the dead” and I think it is not good to take no thought of the morrow) but I think as much as Jefferson admired (and more than Falwell admires).

    Even when defending the thought of Jefferson against Scarbourough, you allowed the innaccurate assertion that atheists oppose Christian moral teaching to slip in. How odd ?

  • “There is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die {a} Unitarian.”

    Thomas Jefferson, 1822.

    Keep swinging, Scarborough.

  • 2Manchu wrote:
    Even if Jefferson was a Bible-thumper, he and the other members of the Constitutional Convention omitted any mention of God, or Jesus for that matter, out of the document, just that little thing about not respecting an establishment of religion.

    Not to be too picky, but better forwarned if you are going to battle them on the details, Jefferson was not part of the Constitutional convention (he was in France at the time) and the thing about the Establishment of Religion is an amendment to the document the convention produced.

    Now if we can just get the other side to realize the constitution does not grant a “right to life” that it is the Declaration of Independence, we can move on to our next lesson;>

  • Thanks, Martin
    The farther away I get from school, the more the mind slips.
    Either that or the logic and reasoning I learned in public school is being corrupted by the current faith-based “if I believe it then it must be true” mentality the Three Ring Circus is forcing on the nation

  • As a religious person, I couldn’t be more opposed to the charletans who try to break down the wall between church and state. There’s no greater source of corruption in religion than when it’s co-opted by the government. And a perfect example of this is the corruption that’s required to support an obvious lie, such as the idea that Jefferson was a fundamentalist Christian.

    Yet, I can’t let this go:

    These include, in Jefferson’s own words: “The immaculate conception of Jesus …”

    Not to get technical, but there is NO SUCH DOCTRINE. The “immaculate conception” refers to Mary, who as the intended mother of Jesus was supposedly so holy that her soul never even bore the stain of Original Sin. (Thus, her soul was conceived in an “immaculate” state.) People mix this up all the time with the concept of Jesus’s supposed Virgin Birth.

    Far be it from me to correct Jefferson, but then it does add more evidence to the fact that Jefferson was not a religious man. On the other hand, if we are going to talk about religion it would be a good idea not to reveal ignorance about it, and perpetuate the myth that liberals cannot also be religious.

  • Come on, folks………..Jefferson’s version of the Bible was not based on the Greek Textus Receptus. Based on Westcott and Hort’s “translation”. Westcott and Hort were mystics and fraternized with other mystic’s and occult figures. It is no wonder he wanted to keep Church and State separate. Jefferson was also an arrogant chap and a Freemason,er, uh, Illuminati……no, wait……Ordi Templis Orientis…..aw, shucks…he was a tarry in the field (another story). I wouldn’t trust him for a minute. It is no wonder his memorial in DC is away from all the others…..As for where our country is today morally?……..stinks……..we’re ate up with it. TV is better left turned off. Schools teaching my kids junk. For crying out loud……..current curriculum/learning systems are antiquated. The world is surpassing us by leaps and bounds and all we want to do is cry about it. Parents want someone else to handle their problems. The government/social services didn’t bring your kids into the world………YOU DID. Where are the grown-ups? Oh, wait!……..Starbucks…..duh, of course, what was I thinking?! Ok…..you don’t want Faith slammed down your throat……….that is the only version of “choice” I will acknowledge…sssoooooo…………let me see……….if that is where you stand……….that gives me the right to come to your house, kick in the door, slap your family (significant other….sorry, my bad) around, take all your stuff, shoot the dog………….but, then……you say……WHAT GIVES YOU THE RIGHT?!………..my will…….you know, “Do What Thy Wilt”?……then you say, NO, THE LAW SAYS YOU CAN’T DO THAT…..I say…….you know, you are right……did we just sit around a cold one and dream this “law” up?…………hey……….over here……….I’m still talking….my will was stopped based on GOD’S LAW…..dare I say it again?…….ok, GOD’S LAW…………you cannot separate Church and State…..you can stop a theocracy like the Inquisition (And, yes, we Bible Thumpers really appreciate that lot…….again, another debate). So, if you don’t want someone coming into your party lair and snaking your stuff in which you worked so hard for, you have to acknowledge where that “imposed will” was stopped………by GOD. Sorry, anyway you paint it, you can’t forget that aspect of our history. I do submit a caveat. Do I trust the government, Heaven’s no. Some elements of the intelligence community cannot be trusted, black budget stuff, you know. Our country needs a moral compass and moral character…….and, we (man) cannot rely on our own wits and devices…..that idea is more screwed up than a pile of coat hangers. I have to take a stand against Hollywood (they profit in our pain on many fronts and could care less about any of us on this blog and you know it…….all they see is the bling and see how many other “stars” they can out-do or, just plain do). Is there some movies that are “friendly’s”?Yep. Do I care what Jessica does, or how many braided nose-hairs Paris is wearing this week?! Geez!!! Honestly, we as Americans have to become sober…..and we cannot do it on our own…..God’s wisdom is the only way…….don’t believe me?…..I’m cool with that…….check your sources and where they get information. Seek and you shall find……

    Am I holy and without sin ( uh, mistakes for any human secularists in the group), …..NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!………do I admit I made a mistake and try to correct it?!!! Yes!!!!!!!! As a Christian, I can admit my mistakes, I can look at my flaws and share them……….it’s called humility…..and we as American’s don’t have this……….I am the first one in line to laugh at me……….are you? I always try to do what is right, but, I am flawed…..sorry…..wait, no I’m not……come on……..

    Praise God through Jesus Christ
    Enoch

  • Please don’t call quacko Rick Scarborough “poor” His IRS 990 for 2004 shows his salary was over $130,000 for the year…and he spent $ 195,000 on travel (does the guy now own his own gdam plane?) — [google vision america rick scarborough form 990]

    Where can one find all of the past IRS filing for Rick Scarborough’s “Vision America” — I am not sure…..but the one I saw made me sick at my stomach thinking of all the old ladies he stole from to promote a hate agenda…..all the while promoting himself mostly, promoting hatred for gay folks, and other nonsense.

    Jasper texas didnt fare well in regards to “hate” did they, so watch out Liberty Texas citizens, government, and the local CVB group — your city now has a new hatemonger group claiming headquarters in your nice city, a HATE GROUP known as “Vision America (along with a million other websites devoted to hate and intolerance, – he has lots of cash and is a potential PR nightmare. These people arent Christian and do not promote family anything.

    They are a bunch of redneck homophobic uneducated whackos who have hijacked the Texas Republican Party and failed in their hijack attempt of the SBC. (thank you god!) They are not conservative, they are Ultra Radical Hate Mongerers

    What RS should do in my opinion:
    Get a big piece of land Dr. Rev. Rick Scarborough and move all your best friends onto it – take Mr. Delay the crook and his crook wife with you pleasef —then fence it off real good – hang out all day on your knees praising the Lord , have fun…. and leave the rest of us out of your game plan. I think the old David Koresh farm may be available out near Wacko, Texas

  • Comments are closed.