Unfortunate racial talk creeps back into Democratic campaign

Hillary Clinton still clearly hopes to make a case to the Democratic Party that she’d be the strongest candidate in a general election, but I have a hunch she’d like to take this one back.

“I have a much broader base to build a winning coalition on,” she said in an interview with USA TODAY. As evidence, Clinton cited an Associated Press article “that found how Sen. Obama’s support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again, and how whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me.”

“There’s a pattern emerging here,” she said.

USA Today described these as “blunt remarks about race.” When a candidate equates “hard-working Americans” with “white Americans,” I can’t help but wonder if “blunt” is a strong enough adjective. (The Obama campaign called Clinton’s remarks “not true and frankly disappointing.”)

Larry Sabato, head of the University of Virginia Center for Politics, said Clinton’s comment was a “poorly worded” variation on the way analysts have been “slicing and dicing the vote in racial terms.”

The remark came the same day chief Clinton strategist Geoff Garin also made a similar case for her electability in rather explicit race-based terms.

Atrios noted that there’s nothing especially wrong with a campaign talking about targeting specific groups of voters, but added, “What the Clinton campaign is doing is saying that Obama has electability problems, and using their support from white voters as evidence of that. That’s a wee bit problematic, and not just because it doesn’t follow logically any more than the other electability arguments such as Obama can’t win the election because he can’t win the primary in big states.”

Quite right.

Let’s put aside the unfortunate wording of Clinton’s statement in which she equated “hard-working” with “white,” and consider the merits of her broader point.

Clinton has done well with white “hard-working” Americans, especially in states like Pennsylvania. But her argument is premised on the notion that White Joe Six Pack who votes in a Democratic primary would rather support a Republican than Obama. Where’s the proof to bolster this claim? There isn’t any.

By the logic of Clinton’s argument, we should also note that her support among African Americans is quite poor, and the “pattern” is pretty clear. Are we to assume that if she were the nominee, those same voters would back McCain over her? That Clinton couldn’t possibly win because she’d never get the support of African-American Dems? Of course not.

Why, then, characterize the race in this illogical, race-based way?

For that matter, Steve M. raises a very important point.

According to CNN’s 1996 exit poll, Bill Clinton lost the white vote (Dole 46%, Clinton 43%, Perot 9%). He lost the white male vote by an even larger margin (Dole 49%, Clinton 38%, Perot 11%). And he lost gun owners badly (Dole 51%, Clinton 38%, Perot 10%). However, Clinton won the popular vote overall 49%-41%-8%, and he won 70% of the electoral votes.

In 2000 — when Al Gore won the popular vote by half a million votes — he lost white males to Bush by a whopping 60%-36%, according to CNN’s exit poll. He lost men overall 53%-42%. He lost whites overall 54%-42%. He lost gun owners 61%-36%. He lost small-town voters 59%-38% and rural voters 59%-37%. He lost the Midwest overall 49%-48%.

I’m not saying these are goals to aspire to. I’m saying it’s a myth that Democrats had Joe Sixpack in their back pockets until that snooty arugula-eater Barack Obama came along, and it’s a myth that they suffer crushing defeats when bowlers and boilermaker-drinkers aren’t on board.

I suppose the Clinton campaign may believe that her primary success with working-class white men in states like Pennsylvania and Ohio suggests she’d outperform her husband and Al Gore, but there’s no evidence to support that, either.

It’s said that adversity brings out one’s true character. It’s sadly pathetic to see what Hillary’s amounts to. And it’s truly opathetic to watch her shills, er, I mean her staff, demonstrate that, in HillaryWorld, loyalty really is valued agbove inteligence, competence, and common decency.

  • She’s horrible. She’s like Eight Belles, ran a hard race but finished second, and is now done. Only, instead of quietly passing on, she’s flopping about on the track moaning, “I can still win! I can still win!”

  • Maybe she’s been watching too much TV analysis. After all, the daily mantra on cable news is that poor disenfranchised rural white men will and should decide the election.

  • Mrs. Clinton seems to have a hearing problem. I call it selective hearing. That’s when you only hear what you want. My kids used to have it when it came to things like doing chores and whatnot. Fortunately, they grew out of it. Unfortunately, I can’t say the same for Queen Hill-Billy.

  • I guess she’s arguing that she should have supported Edwards? After all, he would have gotten a lot of “hard working” white male voters which (as a woman) she wouldn’t have, and where would we be without them?

    Hillary needs a vacation, and we need one from her. It’s going to be hard to be nice to her after all of this, even though we all need to do that, for the good of the party.

  • This is really disappointing. Obama and the rest of the party have opened the door for her to go out gracefully and graciously as we welcome everyone who wants to support Democratic principles in the fall, but she’s going to use this last few minutes to say stuff like this? It’s like she and Bill can’t stop destroying their legacy. It’s like a compulsion.

    Yesterday the skirting around the edges of racism that’s been the practice of some Clinton supporters became more open and more bold. Our own Mary, who’s been making increasingly racist statements for a while now, is a good example of that: she’s now obsessed with the blackness of anyone remotely connected with this primary season, whether it be a superdelegate who declared for Obama or some backroom guy analyzing the election returns at CNN. Right now Greg is down in another thread making explicitly racial pleas for Clinton. And someone else is reporting on a Clinton supporter’s sneering characterization of the Democratic Party as now being the Black/Educated party.

    How are these people going to feel down the road when they look back and see they were reduced to this?

  • Read some of her supporters’ comments on tis topic and you begin to wonder if she’s not angling to become the skinhead candidate.

    http://www.hillaryis44.org/?p=609#comments

    “it must be driven home that “White Flight” as never imagined before will occur as soon as Obama is named as the nominee.”

    “With all due respect to the AA community, can they/do they have the financial means to support the Democratic Party?”

    (cause as we know, all blacks live in the ghetto)

    “How many times have we seen the Videos of Jerry spewing his evil sermons and the worshippers went wild uncontrolled cheering and war dances.”

    (“War dances”?!)

    “Well, this WHITE voter will NEVER vote in WAFFLES and will campaign to get McCain elected”

    Etc.

  • There was black racism in the North Carolina win and Obama has rode a wave of black racism in all of his victories where there were black voters. Why no trashing from the media against this blantant black racism against Sen. Clinton? Obama brought race into the campaign – why no media trashing of Obama for that?

    If there was no black racism in the picture and black voting was based on the issues and qualifications, Sen. Clinton would be far ahead in votes and delegates.

    Obama does not have the requisite number of delegates for the presidential nomination; he has no presumptive lock on the nomination. The Democratic nomination process calls for all states to vote and if candidates come up short on the delegates, then the superdelegates must select the most experienced, qualified candidate for the presidency using their independent judgment and that is Sen. Hillary Clinton.

    If the nomination is swiped from Sen. Clinton, then Obama will crash and burn in November without Sen. Clinton’s supporters and the Democratic Party will be a train wreck. It is delusional to think Obama has any messianic power of “healing.” Radical left wing liberal George McGovern lost every single state except one state in the general election. This will repeat with Obama, another radical left wing liberal. McCain will be the next president.

  • So much for the Huckabee approach.

    (And did anyone ever think we’d be comparing Clinton unfavorably to Huckabee?)

  • Wow

    By the way AA are not voting against Hillary because she is white…They been voting white for years!
    Why are the solid for Obama? Some see his vision, others identity politics (same as female gender)

    But many AA waited till Obama reached across the race border and WON WHITES!!!!!

    It only became 90% the more people made his race the issue! And felt he was being denied because of it!

    SO THE SUMMARY IS,

    THAT IN THE BEGINNING HE WAS NOT “BLACK ENOUGH” OR BILL WAS THE “FIRST AA PRESIDENT”- THE CLINTON’S TRIED TO PAINT HIM AS “THE BLACK CANDIDATE -SO HE WON’T WIN”. ***SO THE MORE AA SUPPORTED HIM!!!!

  • Other than dropping out of the race before the next primary, the best thing Clinton could do for a putting a Democratic with a progressive agenda in the White House is to continue her campaign BUT: 1) stop claiming she has superior electibility or is anyway superior to Obama as an alternative to McCain, 2) publicly treat Obama as an ally and not as a rival, and 3) start emphasizing to those voters who, it seems, are relatively more comfortable with her than with Obama (whites, women, the elderly, Appalachians, etc.) that voting for McCain over any Democrat would be so harmful to their own interests and to the country as a whole. For a good part of the yesterday, I was optimistic she would follow the latter course of action, but apparently my optimism was misplaced.

  • crat3 (8): Sometimes it’s hard to tell the Clinton supporters from the neo-con restorationists. But not always.

  • It seems to me that Obama brings in a lot of other people to the party as well — especially young people.

    I know, I know … we’ve all heard how candidate X is going to spring the youngsters to action, only have that support disappear in the general election.

    But this is truly different with Obama. Go around any college campus and you see a lot more kids a lot more politically engaged than they were in the early 90s (when I was drinking my way through a pair of degrees).

    These folks are motivated to vote to get Bush (and anyone like him) the hell out of there, and there’s a chance we develop a new generation of Democrats.

    That, IMHO, is more important than losing a block of voters we never did get anyway.

    Shouldn’t it also be noted that many of the people voting in Dem primaries — except the Limbaugh folks, however many or few — will, in all likelihood, vote for a Dem regardless? I mean, they obviously support Dem policies, so why the hell wouldn’t they vote for someone — Obama — who has almost the exact same policy goals?

    Saying they won’t just does not compute. Unless Hillary thinks they’re all racist and won’t vote for Obama simply because he’s black. Or something.

  • If the nomination is swiped from Sen. Clinton,

    Don’t go away mad, you cretin, just go away.

    Why is it all Clinton Party supporters turn out to be idiots?

  • Obama does not have the requisite number of delegates for the presidential nomination; he has no presumptive lock on the nomination. … If the nomination is swiped from Sen. Clinton, then Obama will crash and burn in November

    You have to love the mind of a Clinton Cultist, to be able to argue that (a) Obama doesn’t have the nomination, despite his insurmountable lead, and (b) if he does get it, it’ll be “swiping it” from Hillary, who apparently does have the nomination, despite her solid second-place standing.

  • So much for the idea of leaving with dignity and grace. She’s comitting career suicide. People are talking about the possibility of the Obama campaign paying off her campaign debts. I think he should ignore her, proceed to campaign for the general election and let her fester further in her own bile. A few more remarks like this and she’ll be lucky to get a spot at the convention…well maybe she could get prime time at the Republican convention.

  • This white guy would rather vote for David Duke than Hillary Clinton at this point.

    Thank goodness I’ll get to vote for Obama instead.

  • @ 8: If there was no black racism in the picture and black voting was based on the issues and qualifications, Sen. Clinton would be far ahead in votes and delegates.

    “Those shiftless Negroes don’t understand politics; they’re supposed to vote for Clinton!” I do so love how you paint any vote not for your favored candidate as both uninformed and invalid.

    By your logic, Jesse Jackson would have been the Democratic nominee in 1984. As far as I can tell, Obama brought race into this contest simply by being black; last I checked, that’s not a disqualification. If the contest were between Clinton and a white man, would you be excoriating Clinton for bringing gender into this?

    Actually, you probably would.

  • This is *really* bad. By touting her appeal to white voters as a strong argument to make her the Democratic nominee, she’s arguing that black votes don’t mean as much to the party. Now that she’s started making that argument, if she becomes the nominee she will have proven that the Democratic party takes the black vote completely for granted. Hell, she even said as much when she claimed that black voters will vote Democrat regardless of who the nominee is. It’s mind blowing how ignorant and ugly her new argument is.

    She needs to stop. Now.

  • @TR,
    /snark on
    Well it seems like cra3’s basing his math on the view that a black person is only worth 3/5s of a white person thus when Obama gets 1 delegate that delegate is worth 4/5’s (being half white counts for something) of what Hillary gets. Thus Hillary is actually in the lead because Obama’s “real” total is actually only 4/5 of what that Wright agreeing MSM total is.
    /snark off

  • (And did anyone ever think we’d be comparing Clinton unfavorably to Huckabee?) -JRD

    There are a lot of things I think about Clinton now I didn’t imagine I’d ever think before this primary.

  • The Clinton people seem to be convinced that their victory is nigh, indeed it has already happened, because Obama is so unelectable that the superdelegates will all jump ship any day now, once the media quits lying about Hillary.

    That river in Egypt just keeps on flowin’.

    A side thought: I wonder if the white people who control the core of the Democratic party are using this “white flight” argument against Obama because he represents a threat to their power, personally? If the white voter is no longer the battleground demographic that it once was, then the black/brown folks who are in the party leadership positions become more powerful.

    The stats on the white voter support in previous elections is extremely important to remember. And the increased turnout among blacks will be of extreme interest to the GOP, who will no doubt do whatever they can to suppress the black vote. We should be ready for that.

  • Black Racism? Get a grip! The only party train wreck will be the Republican Party, it seems so often we are losing site of that. I won’t believe that any person who voted in a Dem primary and acknowleges what eight years of Bush got us, would go out and vote for McCain. I don’t care who it is on the ticket. If they have a D next to their name they have my vote.

    That said, Clinton is only hurting herself at this point and I find it all very sad. While not perfect she and her husband have done many wonderful things for this country and to see her stoop to this level is just depressing.

  • Luckily she doesn’t plan to run in the GE in states populated by “not hard working” “not white people.”

  • And the more African Americans who are turned off by this crap the louder Camp Clintoon will scream “See?! Only black people are voting for Obama!”

    Don’t know how they’ll explain Caucasians who are similarly turned off. N-word Lovers and Traitors I guess.

    Still, it’s nice of her to create sound bites that the ReThugs can use to prove that Democrats hate black people so they should vote for the “Party of Lincoln.”

    Gag.

  • In response to crat3 (@8): To call black voters’ overwhelming support of Obama in recent primaries the product of black racism is wrong, because it implies that black voters have always been against Clinton because she is white. It’s wrong because Clinton started her campaign with considerable black support and Obama started his with much less than he has now. And over time she has steadily lost almost all of her black support in large part because if the subtle and not-so-subtle appeals to racism and xenophobia. Obama’s campaign isn’t telling black voters don’t vote for Clinton because she is white, but Clinton and her supporters (including Mr. Bill) have been appealing to whites’ fear of having someone black in charge, and having someone who is close to his or her immigrant roots. They’ve provided a preview of what the Republicans will dish out in general election campaign.
    For the record, I’m white and Obama was not my first or even second choice among the various declared Democratic candidates. But as a someone close to my immigrant roots (son of an immigrant father and a mother born in the US within a year of her parents’ and sisters’ arrival), I feel an affinity to Obama.

  • They said thet if Hillary is elected, then 85% of african amreicans will not vote for president. What will happen if 85% of all american women do not vote?

  • I think it’s truly sad that this sort of stuff in the last days are what Hillary will be remembered for. As a nation, we’re moving toward a non-racist society – it’s just us old folks that keep the black / white thing alive. I’m white, my candidate (from the beginning) isn’t. So what?

    I wish Hillary would gracefully bow out after West Virginia, and tell her followers the truth for a change – that those left to vote (like my state of Oregon) will still have a voice. We always have.

  • “This is *really* bad. By touting her appeal to white voters as a strong argument to make her the Democratic nominee, she’s arguing that black votes don’t mean as much to the party”

    I heard a clip of her being interviewed thismorning on NPR. She was aked about the posibility that she is disenfranchising the African American vote. To paraphrase, her answer was an incredibly smug “Oh they’ll vote for me anyway” remark.

  • They said thet if Hillary is elected, then 85% of african amreicans [sic] will not vote for president. What will happen if 85% of all american women do not vote? -Me

    Then they will get the President they deserve.

    They who? Who said 85% of African Americans won’t vote for Hillary? No one. Your baseless, idle threat means nothing, especially given your inability to spell the word ‘Americans.’

    To answer your question, if that happens, they’d get the government they deserve, just like always for those who choose not to exercise their right to vote.

    But we all know that’s not going to happen and you’re just concern trolling.

  • Hillary’s support among American women is at 85%? Um, I think not. And most of her supporters will vote for the Democratic nominee, period. Very few are self-destructive or unempathetic enough toward the needs of the poor, the uninsured, the military, etc., to say Hillary’s way or the highway. Those who are are personality cultists, not Democrats.

  • Oh my God – It just occurred to me……… THIS IS HER STRATEGY FOR WEST VIRGINIA! She thinks to win there, she needs to be overtly racist. Ewwww. I am so embarassed to be a white woman of her age.
    Go away, Hillary.

  • #33 Linda, I think you’re probably right on this. It’s very sad to see Hillary stoop to this tactic just to keep her faint “hopes” (yaright) alive.

    #13 My college kid (age 23) even attended his caucus! And he’s never been into politics, but is excited about Barack Obama.

    My opinion: shame on those people who continue to divide us into groups by race, class, religion, etc. This is why I support Obama – though he identifies himself as an African America, his mother and grandparents who raised him were white. He lived in Indonesia as a child. It’s given him an interesting perspective on life and on people: that we’re more similar than different.

    Those that seek to divide are preying on people’s FEAR. I thought that was the tactic of the Republicans. It’s too bad that some Dems are adopting it.

  • One more thing: I wouldn’t be surprised if these comments by Clinton result in more supers declaring for Obama. I’d be disappointed if they don’t.

  • @ 31: Then they will get the President they deserve.

    Actually, we’ll get the President they deserve. Isn’t democracy grand? I take some comfort in the knowledge that the fringies who seem so common on Internet forums actually make up a very, very small part of the population. It’s not always easy to remember that when you see them online every day.

  • Crat3 – “Radical left wing liberal George McGovern lost every single state except one state in the general election. This will repeat with Obama, another radical left wing liberal. McCain will be the next president.”

    If you call yourself a Democrat, stop. We don’t need nor want people like you in our Party. I don’t believe you’re a Dem anyway. DINO at best, Limbaugh stodge more likely.

  • Why, then, characterize the race in this illogical, race-based way?

    Why? Because she’s attempting to exploit the racist instincts of many who live in West Virginia and Kentucky (sorry friends). She’s applying Nixon’s Southern Strategy to beat a black man.

    In addition to being our newest release of Zell Lieberman, she has also become our David Duke.

    There are no words to express the depth of my disgust for Hillary’s behavior.

  • You know what? Hillary can’t win without the black vote, but is Obama saying that?

    Sorry, I just threw up in my mouth a little….

  • Okay, lady, the gloves are off. You won Indiana, barely. Why? As Bill Schneider pointed out in an unnoticed part of his analysis — wasn’t anyone watching CNN when this came on? — only because you got the Senior vote (those over 65). The rest of the state went for Obama by about three points, the only thing that swung it to you was the seniors, who voted for you by about seven points. (Sorry, I wish I had written down the exact numbers and my browser is acting up so much I can’t check the exact figures.)

    But historically, Indiana was one of the most racist Northern states — strongest support for the ‘second Klan’ etc. This is no longer true today, but it was when these seniors were growing up.

    In fact, if you look at all the primaries, this has been the one group most consistently for Hillary, the seniors.

    Okay, I’m just short of ‘senior citizen’ status — I’m 62. Which means

    I was 8 when Brown v. Board of Ed was decided. (Senior citizens were at least eleven.)

    I was still 8 when SPORTS ILLUSTRATED ran a Spring Training cover showing Larraine Day (the wife of Leo Durocher) with her arms around her husband and the returning star of the Giants, Willie Mays — and got pages of cancellations for running such a ‘disgusting, pornographic’ picture on its cover. (I mention this because it was my first real understanding of the ugliness of racism.)

    I was 11 (Seniors were at least 14) when Gov. Faubus stood in the door.

    I was 18 when Goodman, Schwerner and Chaney were murdered and when Viola Liuzzo joined them in the Hall of Martyrs to racial equality.

    I was 22 when George Wallace ran for President as an Independent — and despite the ‘student radicalism’ of the 60s got as many votes from my age group as did Eugene McCarthy.

    Yes, many of my contemporaries were fighting for racial justice and equality then — and because we won, people remember us as typical. But we weren’t — even among our peers. We wreren’t just going against our parents’ generation, we were going against the majority of our classmates and friends. (And, btw, I grew up in New Jersey suburbia. We didn’t have legal segregation, but my small town didn’t have a black resident by the time I moved from there in 1969. There was one part of the surrounding area that had a predominantly black population — and used to kill us in the local baseball league — but they were the only black faces I saw. My grammar school never had a black student, my High School had one. This was partially because I was Catholic and went to Catholic schools — before they accepted Protestants — and few blacks were Catholics.)

    I was 23 when a friend — who probably considered himself a liberal and who certainly would have supported any action towards desegregation — refused to let me bring a girlfriend when we were supposed to be sharing a room at a SF convention — once he found out she was black. (“I’m sorry Jim, but I was brought up to believe this was wrong and I can’t deal with it.” — ironically, he would have been fine with me bringing a boyfriend with me — he knew I was bisexual.)

    I was about a year younger when the famous Star Trek episode with ‘the kiss’ occurred between Kirk and Uhura — not the first interracial kiss on tv (Nancy Sinatra and Samy Davis had kissed on a variety series) but the first one between fictional characters. And we may forget that the kiss happened because Kirk was under mental control by an alien and was forced to do it — and that it was merely mimed, not an actual kiss.

    My point in retelling all these stories is to point out that while many of my generation, and those just preceding mine, today’s ‘seniors,’ did grow out of their racism, many did not. This was the last group in which racism was the norm — and protestors were the exception. This was the group that grew up — even in the North — in segregated towns, went to effectively segregated schools, who were still open to the hideous argument “would you want your sister to marry one.”

    And THIS is the group that has kept your campaign alive, Senator Clinton. This is the group that won you those ‘big states’ you talk of so freely.

    So keep playing to the racists, Senator. Keep having your surrogates argue that “America will never vote for a black President.” Keep playing the Wright card (hoping the younger part of your audience will never understand where his anger came from — that they may, intellectually, know what segregation was but can never really grasp it emotionally). No, you aren’t a racist, personally, I have no doubt about that.

    You are just a scavenger, a desperate ‘bottom-feeder.’ Go on to the convention, if you must. And when you lose, maybe there will be one positive effect. Maybe you’ll finally succeed in finishing what the Goldwater you once supported — who was no more racist than you — started, driving all the racists into the Republican Party.

    And good riddance to them

    And you.

  • What will happen if 85% of all american women do not vote? — Me, @28

    Don’t know (perhaps it’s better that I don’t) where you get your numbers from, but it can’t be from anywhere healthy or clean…

    First, you’re assuming that all women in US would vote for Clinton and that, if she’s not the nominee, only 15% (presumably black) will support Obama . That’s nonsense. Not all American women are Dems; some would not vote for either of them.

    You also assume that all white, Dem-leaning women, prefer Clinton and, if they don’t get their choice, they’d stay home and pout. That, again, is BS. Granted, I tend to hang around, mostly, with “eggheads” (most have a college degree, some at doctorate level and *all* have finished highschool) but among the 40 or so female family members and friends — all white — that I talked to, only 4 are pro-Clinton (there had been 5, but one got turned off by Clinton et al’s recent antics and switched to Obama, albeit reluctantly). Of those 4, *only one* says she won’t vote for Obama under any circumstances. The remaining 3 will vote for a Dem, even if it’s Obama.

    Math wasn’t my strong suit in highschool but I don’t think one out of forty makes 85%, so please stop your evidence-deficient fear-mongering.

  • I have mentioned this before,but little has been addressed in discussions about how interracial couples, families, and individuals perceive this racist tainted rhetoric. However,to interracial hardworking folk,Hillary is just sealing the deal to vote for Obama! THAT is why Edwards’ campaign manager endorsed Obama today.Hillary is appealing to the lowest element of irrational folk who “feel”what’s right,instead of “thinking “right……..JUST LIKE HER IRRATIONAL DISMISSAL OF ECONOMIC EXPERTS. This,too, was a ploy then to set up her appeal to the least informed,most malleable sheeple among us, enabled by the Quisling uber right wing fundamentalist screeds.

  • BTW: Just an additional thought. Encouraging,and providing de facto approval of this practice of racism does not bode well for a country who is becoming browner everyday,with the Hispanic influx becoming assimilating into our nation. Would racist rhetoric now not sow seeds of even further discord in future generations? Would not Obama set the tone for race relations in the future ,of how to get along and move forward\? You cannot look backward and forward at the same time.

  • The Clinton’s have always made appeals to hard working Americans who play by the rules. Why is it that demagogues who do not play by the rules and make fortunes with their silver tongues can have such weight with this empty appeal? I’d throw Rush Limbaugh and the Clinton’s into the same bag on this count.

  • I still have to say how saddened I am by this – I was a Clinton supporter. I supported Obama later as though I prefered some of her policies, I felt his approach to politics and leadership skills held social benefits and benefits for changing the Democratic party. I would have left Clinton anyway after seeing her current behavior.

    I think one thing we’re seeing here is just how far gone our political system is – corrupt, manipulative, simplistic, dog-whistle politics is the order of the day. Clinton really is taking notes from the Republican playbook, and I’ll honestly bet she and the people around her are oblivious to this sad fact. They’ve been in the system long enough it seems normal to them – despite the fact our political culture is killing our country and or civility.

    What I hope for is that she’ll realize at some point just what she’s doing, and do a 180, save face, back Obama, and focus her energy on the Republicans. I’m sure she’s smart enough to come to the conclusion, but the question is is she wise enough – and can she step out of the system enough.

  • Maybe the goal of the “hard working” comment was to test the Obama campaign again, much like earlier Clinton campaign close-to-the-edge statements on race. Judging by the angry and righteous rebuttals to it by Obama supporters it might work . . . again.

    Just yesterday morning there was talk of Clinton running a more positive end-game campaign that let her exit with dignity yet rallied the party around the nominee. That strategy, of course, would concede the nomination to Obama. The Clinton campaign has gambled several times with what Josh Marshall called “bitch slap” politics–i.e. attacks that are so flagrantly insulting to the rival that they turn attention to how the rival handles the attack, and away from whether the attack has merit. If Obama wanted to run his last primary campaigns focused on healing the party, characterizing McCain, and politely ignoring Clinton, the “hard working” flap is a perfect spoiler, even if it makes Clinton look bad.

    The second benefit of this strategy is to keep Clinton supporters motivated. They’ve been inured to charges of racism by now, and, in fact, get more polarized when having their candidate’s basic morality attacked. Over the top rebuttals by Obama supporters help keep wavering Clinton supporters defensive and ready to keep fighting rather than willing to give up the ghost.

  • They can’t be this dumb – can they?

    There go Team Obama again, playing the race card. Seems to me these comment boards are full of Obama shills selling the campaign line (they appear to be cut’n’paste responses – sometimes near identical).

    I’m sick and tired of this racist taunting and the character assassination. Stop it. You are alienating blue-collar voters with this sleaze. You think you’ll get their vote by implying or stating outright that they and Hillary are racists?

    I say to Obama and those who run with him, stop the bigoted trashing of people with whom you disagree. Stop trashing Hillary and the blue collar electorate by insisting they are racists and implying you can win in November without them – you can’t.

    You’re driving a major component of this party straight into the arms of John McCain. This is a painfully stupid strategy. You are on the road to guaranteeing a replay of 1972 – a sweeping loss. I was there, and that was ugly.

  • There go Team Obama again, playing the race card.

    If Mr. Winterbottom can’t see that the statement, “Sen. Obama’s support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again…” is racist, then I can’t help him.

    FYI — Making racist comments to get votes is “playing the race card”…not being disgusted by them.

  • According to CNN’s 1996 exit poll, Bill Clinton lost the white vote (Dole 46%, Clinton 43%, Perot 9%). He lost the white male vote by an even larger margin (Dole 49%, Clinton 38%, Perot 11%). And he lost gun owners badly (Dole 51%, Clinton 38%, Perot 10%). However, Clinton won the popular vote overall 49%-41%-8%, and he won 70% of the electoral votes.

    In 2000 — when Al Gore won the popular vote by half a million votes — he lost white males to Bush by a whopping 60%-36%, according to CNN’s exit poll. He lost men overall 53%-42%. He lost whites overall 54%-42%. He lost gun owners 61%-36%. He lost small-town voters 59%-38% and rural voters 59%-37%. He lost the Midwest overall 49%-48%.

    I’m not saying these are goals to aspire to. I’m saying it’s a myth that Democrats had Joe Sixpack in their back pockets until that snooty arugula-eater Barack Obama came along, and it’s a myth that they suffer crushing defeats when bowlers and boilermaker-drinkers aren’t on board.

    I suppose the Clinton campaign may believe that her primary success with working-class white men in states like Pennsylvania and Ohio suggests she’d outperform her husband and Al Gore, but there’s no evidence to support that, either.

    ENOUGH SAID. HILLARY STOP NOW!!!!

  • 48.On May 8th, 2008 at 3:24 pm, undisclosed angler said:

    “Maybe the goal of the “hard working” comment was to test the Obama campaign again, much like earlier Clinton campaign close-to-the-edge statements on race.”
    ________________________________________________________________________

    You know, this is the sort of thing many find particularly infuriating. Taking a word or phrase that is not racist or the least offensive and claim they are near racist, or racist code, or close-to-the-edge. There are many of us who are sick and tired of this. It is the currency of the deceitful.

    We saw out-and-out bigotry from Donna as she chided Paul on CNN the other day – that was the ugly face racism. Does anyone believe she helped her cause with that outburst? The Obama folks have defamed both Clintons with charges of racism. That is something many will not forget. Obama did it to energize and expand the black vote before the NC primary – it was cynical, transparent, and ugly. I found the libel and slander of President Clinton particularly odious.

    You are not going to get away with it again.

  • The Obama folks have defamed both Clintons with charges of racism.

    Nope. The Clintons have defamed themselves with racist comments.

    They are not going to get away with it (in fact, she already lost).

  • I’m white, female over 60 and college educated and Hillary’s remarks are offensive to me and I do not support her.

  • 50. “If Mr. Winterbottom can’t see that the statement, “Sen. Obama’s support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again…” is racist, then I can’t help him.”

    _______________________________________________________________________

    Well, no, in fact you CAN help me. You can do so by clearly delineating the racist content – where is it. Explain your reasoning. How specifically, do you come to the view that the statement as racist? No hand-waving “anyone can see it is”, evasions.

    Point by point, demonstrate that the statement is racist, and that it would be read as such by any reasonable person.

    You can’t can you? You can’t because it is not racist. You may twist in the wind muttering about “code”, or “close-to–the-edge”, or cop-outs like, “near-racist”, or other weasels.

    This is a direct challenge – demonstrate that the statement is racist by deconstructing it, and explaining point-by-point your reasoning.

    You can’t?

    . . . thought not.

  • Charges of racism and other BS from Team Obama.

    It’s time for those who make these unfounded charges to be brought to account. They should be confronted and required to provide justification. If they cannot, they deserve our scorn and derision.

    They use these tactics . . . because they can. No one calls them on it. They are allowed to defame without penalty to themselves or (where they are surrogates) to their principal.

    Time to end their free ride.

  • Answering false charges of racism.

    We’re still waiting for CJ #50, or angler #48 to detail why Hillary’s statement is racist . . .

    Perhaps their silence speaks volumes.

  • #54. Katy Hill wrote
    “I’m white, female over 60 and college educated and Hillary’s remarks are offensive to me and I do not support her.”
    __________________________________________________________________________

    Specifically, Katy, in what way were her remarks offensive to you? How did you come to conclude they were offensive. Can you articulate your reasoning. Looking at the statement, detail the nature of its offense.

    That should be a no-brainer.

  • clearly delineating the racist content – where is it.

    Not to speak for anyone else, but I thought her comment:

    … hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again, and how whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me.

    could easily be construed as:

    “Only white Americans without educations are hardworking. Everyone else is a lazy black or an elitist white person.”

    I’m not saying that what she was implying, but after I read it, I knew some would find it very, very easy to get that impression.

    **shrugs shoulders**

  • “Obama’s support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again,” =

    The black guy is struggling in pulling in the white vote.

    “I have a much broader base to build a winning coalition on” =

    I’m white and, let’s face it, whites rule this country.

  • One needs only to do a brief google search for ‘J. D. Winterbottom’ to learn that this commenter is nothing but a persistent shill for the Clinton campaign. No amount of explaining would ever satisfy them. I will not waste my time attempting to convince a troll of the existence of covert racism with wink, wink code words when Google is at their fingertips.

    Feb 5 almost upon us. Numbers indicate Sen. Obama loses 18 states. Now that Edwards is out there will be no ambiguity about who won and who lost. This race may be over. Delegates or no, how does any candidate maintain viability after losing 18 primaries in one day?

    Bet’s please for the date of Obama’s concession speech.

    Posted by jd-winterbottom | January 30, 2008 10:17 AM

    How’d that prediction work out for you? I’d say about as well as your ability to identify racism. So many bitter trolls today.

  • False charges of racism .

    Of course the author of the article has to take his or her share of responsibility for promoting this divisive garbage. He uses quotes from other articles to make his case and bolster his conclusions – “see, they say so, too”. Briefly, a series of non sequiturs and ding-bat assertions lead him to ask:

    “Why, then, characterize the race in this illogical, race-based way?”

    He “has a hunch”, Hillary would like to take her statement back – no need to explain his reasoning when it’s only a hunch, right?

    He is eventually led to ask:
    “Let’s put aside the unfortunate wording of Clinton’s statement in which she equated “hard-working” with “white,” and consider the merits of her broader point.”

    Well, of course Clinton did not assert that [being] white was synonymous with [being] hard working. Indeed were is so, why would she employ the redundancy? If “hard working” means “white” why use it? “Hard working” whites, are presumably a subset of the population of all whites. The term “hard working” is used to identify that cohort.

    No, the truth is, Hillary did not say, nor did she imply that [being] “hard working” was an intrinsic attribute or quality of the white race(s). The author of the article simply made that up.

    This is a deeply dishonest article promoting profoundly dumb thesis.

  • 62.doubtful said:
    “One needs only to do a brief google search for ‘J. D. Winterbottom’ to learn that this commenter is nothing but a persistent shill for the Clinton campaign. No amount of explaining would ever satisfy them.”

    _________________________________________________________________________

    You can’t even begin to explain why her statement was racist, can you? You spend all that time digging into google rather than simply answer the question. It doesn’t matter who you think I am – the question stands on its own. Rather than run away from it, provide a rationale.

    It seems to me the case is proven, is it not? You cannot even attempt a viable defense of the racist charge. Try explaining, if not for my sake, then for the sake of others who may be persuaded.

    Stop the misdirection, provide the evidence to back the accusation or disown it.

  • 60. Mark D said: . . .

    Well, thanks for answering, Mark. You’ve shown a great deal more intestinal fortitude than most.

    You do state WHAT you think her statement could mean but you do not address the question asked, which was, WHY do you think that? That is, parsing the statement, detail your reasoning. How do you reach that conclusion from the text of her statement?

    This is how folks can decide for themselves whether they think your conclusions are reasonable or not. They can examine your argument and see if they agree that indeed things could reasonably be construed that way.

  • I just googled this J.D. Winterbottom dufus too. What a freaking loser posting on the Internet constantly about the sociopathic piece of garbage that is Hillary Clinton.You define pathetic.

  • And apparently not even a HARD WORKING AMERICAN. J.D., in the U.S we spell organisation with a Z.

    J D Winterbottom
    Many,many thanks for our recent holiday at Castell Montgri. Everything was perfect and staff were wonderful.We have visited the site many times but were impressed with your organisation. We wish to go next year for 2 weeks – same time either from 4/07/06 or 11/07/06. If possible could you advise on the same area – Yellow, Mobile Home 50 in an Amber 2. This setting was perfect. I understand that there are one or two deals available eg early booking etc and would be pleased to receive your advice. Many thanks J D Winterbottom

  • I’m going to steal a page from Sadly, No, and proudly present The Malfunctioning Winterbottom Robot:

    “WHY do you think that? the case is proven, is it not? WHY do you think that? the case is proven, is it not? WHY do you think that? the case is proven, is it not? WHY do you think that? the case is proven, is it not? WHY do you think that? the case is proven, is it not? WHY do you think that? the case is proven, is it not? WHY do you think that? the case is proven, is it not? WHY do you think that? the case is proven, is it not? WHY do you think that? the case is proven, is it not? WHY do you think that? the case is proven, is it not? WHY do you think that? the case is proven, is it not? WHY do you think that? the case is proven, is it not? WHY do you think that? the case is proven, is it not? Time to end their fr…ri…d….”

    Let’s face it, kids, you could find a picture of Clinton turning a fire hose on a crowd of equal-rights marchers from the 60s and this guy’s response would be, “That doesn’t mean anything! She was helping them! They were thirsty!

    For my part, I don’t actually believe that Clinton is a racist. That said, her statement about those hard-working white Americans could not have been any more controversial if laboratories had precision-engineered it to bait races. With contests in KY and WV coming up, it’s important to let those blue-collar white Americans think they know where you stand on racial issues. And then she can always repudiate the statement afterwards, using arguments not unlike Mr. Frostybum’s.

  • And, OK “cg17”, now you’re being creepy. Don’t be that stalker guy.

  • #61 cg17 said: . . .
    ““Obama’s support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again,” = The black guy is struggling in pulling in the white vote. ”

    “I have a much broader base to build a winning coalition on” = I’m white and, let’s face it, whites rule this country.

    _______________________________________________________________

    But WHY does it “=” that? Simply declaring it is so gets us nowhere. Detail how you arrive at that conclusion. Justify it.

    Either you can or you cannot. If you cannot, then you offer us no basis upon which we can merit your interpretation.

    1. Now Obama is indeed a “black guy”, but does that mean that every time his name is used by white people, they mean you to re-read it literally as the “black guy”? Does this mean that whenever a white person uses the person’s name to identify them (and they’re black), that they mean you to read it literally as the “black guy”?

    It’s ridiculous isn’t it? So, how do you conclude that Hillary meant us to read the “black guy” into her use of the name Obama? There’s no evidence to support that at all. Is there? If there is, where is it?

    2. How on earth do you get from this, Clinton: “I have a much broader base to build a winning coalition on”, to this, “I’m white and, let’s face it, whites rule this country.”? Where does she say that – in any language? She doesn’t, does she? It’s complete nonsense, is it not? Literally, is makes no – sense. No one, with the best will in the world, would accept your interpretation of her statement as being reasonable or in any sense justifiable, would they?

  • But WHY does it “=” that?

    Because I can interpret the OBVIOUS innuendo FREAK SHOW–which is clearly beyond your intellectual limitations. And why does someone who doesn’t even live in this country have nothing better to do than attempt to sanitize race baiting ALL DAY LONG?

  • 67.cg17 said:
    “And apparently not even a HARD WORKING AMERICAN. J.D., in the U.S we spell organisation with a Z.

    J D Winterbottom”

    Sorry sport, wrong guy. How many people have the name J.D. Winterbottom? I can’t say, but this one aint me.

    Why don’t you address the issue rather than become an internet stalker? We know the answer, don’t we?

  • No one has commented about Begala’s derogatory comments about “eggheads” supporting Obama. Can we combine anti intellectualism into the mix? Surely all those pointy headed college educated dummies could not possibly be hard working Americans too.

  • Sometimes you can’t fight the urge to feed the troll. Here goes it the hopes of reaching some people who wonder if JDW has a point.

    First, thanks for proving my point that Clinton supporters get more defensive and fired up when Obama supporters accuse them of racism. In my comment, I speculated that this morning’s press effort by the Clinton campaign to highlight Obama’s lagging support among working-class whites is a way to keep Obama fighting with her rather than moving on to a general election strategy. I think that’s working if we judge by the Obama pushback on the issue. Nothing would frustrate Clinton’s team more than for the working-class white issue to be ignored by the Obama team. Obama supporters are taking the bait, however, and this comment section is a prime example of the result–more polarization more digging in by both camps, and more time for Clinton to stay in the race, and that’s Clinton’s goal.

    “Close to the edge”? I could say ‘cmon, be honest, but you didn’t post six times to let it stand at that. So here goes. To make the case for your candidacy on the grounds that you appeal to white workers more than the other candidate comes close to the edge of saying that your campaign has a specifically racial&class appeal to it and that this racial&class appeal is the main reason your campaign should keep going. I wrote close to the edge “on race”, not racism. That is, I don’t think Clinton is saying something that elevates one race (whites) above another (blacks), and thereby advocates racial supremacy. I do think that this is close to edge of saying that race, and which race backs which candidate, should be the main concern for those trying to figure out who should be the nominee.

    The USA Today interview that Steve referenced starts out “Hillary Rodham Clinton vowed Wednesday to continue her quest for the Democratic nomination, arguing she would be the stronger nominee because she appeals to a wider coalition of voters.” I read this to say that Clinton sees her broad-based electability as the rationale for continuing, and then in the next sentence, she cites “hard working white Americans” as the most important example in this “broader base”. She did not say “vote for me because working-class whites prefer me to the black candidate, who I have been trying to associate with the views of anti-white racist statements of Reverend J. Wright, and all those watching this election should care more about what working-class whites want than other kinds of voters” but she’s close to the edge.

    As an aside, Clinton’s decision to take an aspect of her electoral support and highlight it as the reason she will win is more than just a one-off remark on the appeal to white workers by the candidate. In the past 24 hours Clinton spokespeople, Harold Wolfson and Geoff Garin have made the same point.

    I think Clinton supporters would push back against a claim for Obama as the more deserving candidate based on his greater popularity among black voters. Democrats would go after McCain if he said he should be president because conservative evangelicals prefer him. In both cases critics could charge these campaigns with elevating a particular social group as somehow more indicative of the “real” American voter than all others.

    Of course, you have found in my original comment some criticism of Obama supporters for their over-the-top attacks on Clinton. By pushing the Clinton comments as examples of her racism, Obama supporters only keep alive antagonism with Clinton supporters. I’m saying that they are playing into the hands of Clinton diehards by doing this, too.

    JDW reads more like someone trying to keep alive the hard feelings between Clinton and Obama supporters rather than like someone who is ready to support the Democratic nominee, even if that ends up being Obama. However, there are many more Clinton backers who are ready to back Obama if he wins it just as there are Obama fans ready to back Clinton should she win it. Going after Clinton as a racist is going to make it harder for Clinton voters to forgive and forget. Therefore, I advise the Obama supporters to knock it off, and, unlike me, ignore the likes JDW. We should be taking our cues from Obama’s amazing NC acceptance speech where he rightly said it was time to defeat the politics of polarization.

    Clinton’s remarks on electability highlight the problem she faces in that she’s in a position where polarization, within the party rather than between parties, appears to be the most viable option for keeping her hopes alive. If by some surprise Obama can be made to seem unelectable to enough Democrats she becomes the default nominee. Since Obama has not self-destructed, the only way Clinton can raise doubts about his electability is to attack. You then get back to where and how to attack. For the good of humanity, I’d like to see the attacks be about Obama’s policies not his constituents. Unfortunately for Clinton, she and Obama share a lot in common on policy, and attacks on healthcare mandates, Iraq War policy, and even the gas tax have not done much damage.

    Attacking on who has the most desirable voters-based on the USA Today interview, who is most acceptable to working-class whites–not only substitutes election demography for policy, it also plays into a well-worn Republican party pattern of exploiting white fears of black social and political power (unless one believes that the 1988 Willie Horton ads were simply a reasoned critique of prison furloughs).

    The Clintons have an admirable record on race, and arguably did more than anyone else to lower racial tensions in the aftermath of the early 1990s, a period marked by the LA riots and now largely forgotten calls for Afro-centricism in public education, which were subsumed under the George H. W. Bush’s 1992 campaign attacks on “political correctness.” The Clintons know this history of racialized politics as well as any prominent political family in the U.S., and I think they are genuinely hurt and angry over having been called race baiters by Obama supporters. They could do themselves and their foes a great service by battling Obama on ground other than his ties to Reverend Wright and the racial breakdown of the primary vote. Obama supporters could let the “hard working” jab bounce off, and give the Clinton supporters, if not the campaign’s leadership, a chance to back away from polarization.

  • # 68. Belligerent Academic

    Ah well, for all your vitriol, you do not even try to offer any justification for your defamation of Hillary. You simply declare her guilty of race baiting. That’s not good enough. You’ve been called out to answer the charge that you are doing nothing more than libeling the woman, and you hide behind your outrage that anyone should have the audacity to confront you. It’s not that I’m not satisfied with Team Obama’s answers to the question of why her statements are racist it is that they have offered none.

    Well, you are being confronted, and neither you nor any of the others have had the capacity to put up. There is race baiting going on here, but it is you and your fellow travelers who are doing it.

  • @ 73: Surely all those pointy headed college educated dummies could not possibly be hard working Americans too.

    Of course not. They’re elitists, just like economists. And those are always wrong, right? Just ask Bush. Or Clinton. If Clinton somehow got the nomination, that’s the only thing that could possibly keep me from voting for her. That fucking sneer at the idea of educated people knowing what they’re talking about.

    Doesn’t include her, though, does it? She only uses her degree as something to hang on the wall while she downs shots of whiskey with those hard-working salt-of-the-earth blue-collar folks in PA. She ain’t no fancy book-reader.

  • @ 75: hide behind your outrage that anyone should have the audacity to confront you

    Oh, no no no. Feel free to confront me. I reserve the right to ignore or mock you as the situation demands. I gave up a long time ago on the idea of changing anyone’s mind on an Internet thread.

    There is race baiting going on here, but it is you and your fellow travelers who are doing it.

    But WHY do you think that?

  • 71.cg17 said:
    “Because I can interpret the OBVIOUS innuendo FREAK SHOW–which is clearly beyond your intellectual limitations. And why does someone who doesn’t even live in this country have nothing better to do than attempt to sanitize race baiting ALL DAY LONG?”

    ________________________________________________________________________

    Last time I’m going to try with you. If the racism in Hillary’s statement is obvious, you should have no problem explaining how you reach that conclusion. You have not done so, you haven’t even attempted to do so.

    Consider that it might better serve your interests were you to insure you have a clue before engaging others.

    cg17 said: “And why does someone who doesn’t even live in this country . . .”

    (Wrong – you need to work on those reseach skills)

  • Oh, it’s the last time you’re going to try with me? I’m not the one who posts dumbass garbage on the internet all day.

    And insure is incorrect–DUMBASS–unless you’re buying some insurance for your freaking
    mental retardation. It’s ENSURE

    What a freaking idiot. Clearly you’re the one who’s clueless–evidenced by your inability to utilize basic cognitive function.

  • The clever angler, being rather more thoughtful than myself, posted a wonderful analysis of the situation back up at post 74. Will you deign to respond, Mr. Frostybum? Or are you going to spend your time responding to the snark (me) and the weirdo (cg17. Sorry dude, it’s true.)?

    If you’re looking for a meeting of the minds, angler’s really an excellent candidate. I can understand that confronting actual reason is more difficult than confronting my being an ass, but hey, that’s the discussion you’ve been seeking all this time!

  • 77.Belligerent Academic
    “There is race baiting going on here, but it is you and your fellow travelers who are doing it.”

    But WHY do you think that?
    ____________________________________________________________

    Funny. I answered that, but I’m happy to do so again.

    You and Team Obama, have charged Hillary with racism and/or race baiting, but have offered no evidence to back the claim. Those gratuitously bringing up the race issue and injecting it into the election discourse are, by definition, baiting those whom they unjustifiably charge. They are also inflaming the polity and exacerbating existing structural tensions within the party and within society itself.

    To brand those with whom you disagree politically, as racists or race baiters, while offering no evidence to back the charge, is to defame and libel them, To falsely accuse others of such scurrilous behavior, is to bait them.

  • @ 81: To brand those with whom you disagree politically, as racists or race baiters, while offering no evidence to back the charge, is to defame and libel them, To falsely accuse others of such scurrilous behavior, is to bait them.

    (Sigh. You had to know this was coming.)

    But WHYYYYY do you think that?

    (No, really, check out angler’s post and respond to it if you’re up for a debate. I’m just going to keep repeating the Why line to annoy you. Post 74. Right up there. Turn the scroll wheel on your mouse. You’ll find it.)

  • cg17 wrote:
    And insure is incorrect–DUMBASS–unless you’re buying some insurance for your freaking mental retardation. It’s ENSURE
    _________________________________________________________________

    It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt. TWAIN

    You obviously hunger for attention and validation, but you really are beginning to embarrass yourself. They are, as used (in context), synonymous. Either one is acceptable. Insure/ensure

    http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=263132

    Insure (definition)

    In”sure (?), v. t. [imp. & p. p. Insured (?); p. pr. & vb. n. Insuring.] [OE. ensuren, prob. for assuren, by a change of prefix. See 1st In-, and Sure, and cf. Assure, Ensure.] [Written also ensure.]

    1.

    To make sure or secure; as, to insure safety to any one.

    ……………………………………………..

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ensure

    ensure

    : to make sure, certain, or safe : guarantee
    synonyms ensure, insure, assure, secure mean to make a thing or person sure.

  • “There go Team Obama again”

    Go is a SYNONYM for goes I suppose?

    ONCE RETARDED, ALWAYS RETARDED.

    AND THEN YOU WONDER WHY YOU FAIL TO UNDERSTAND….

  • Welp, 8:00 and the hockey game is on (Go Wings!). As fun as this has been, I think I’ll call it a night.

    Funny that, after all those posts asking–begging!–for someone to articulate their position on the “racism” of Hillary’s comments, the only person (angler, post 74, check the damn thing out) to really do so is the one that never gets a response. Last I checked, that makes you a fraud, old son.

    For all my myriad flaws, I didn’t hop over to a blog full of Clintonistas and start challenging people to debates to chicken out on.

    Good night, wherever you are.

  • # 74 angler said:
    “Close to the edge”?. . . To make the case for your candidacy on the grounds that you appeal to white workers more than the other candidate comes close to the edge of saying that your campaign has a specifically racial&class appeal to it and that this racial&class appeal is the main reason your campaign should keep going.”

    Obama has 90%+ of the black vote. A main pillar of his candidacy is the black electorate. Poll after poll has documented that black voters vote for Obama first and foremost, because he is black (the first truly viable black candidate for president). That is to say, that black vote is a race-based vote. Obama touts his appeal to this cohort as an asset in the general (and it is).

    Of course her campaign has a class appeal – she’s not coming close to the edge of saying that, she is stating it clearly. It is the case that since Obama has nearly the entire black vote, the only segment of the working class cohort remaining, is necessarily, white (to include Latino). It is white because Obama has taken all the black voters. This is a statement of objective fact about the demographics.

    Had she said she had the “working class” vote or the “blue collar” vote – they’d have been all over her like a cheap suit, as was Donna on CNN when she set upon Paul (I think it was him), saying that black people work too, you know, they’re part of the working class, but not a Clinton cohort. Donna was quite aggressive about this. So, given that experience and the likelihood of that reaction recurring, Clinton deliberately differentiates her cohort from that of Obama’s working class cohort. The ONLY way she can do this is to call it the white working class – what should she do, call them non-black working class, or “that portion of the working class not faithful to Senator Obama”?

    She contends that he is not doing well with a cohort that is in her camp. That’s just a statement of fact. That they are a white cohort is neither here nor there except with respect to defining the cohort. That is a description of the subset (of voters). It is the way it is, because Obama has nearly all the black vote.

    It is also true that, Team Obama have hammered home that they have a crucial constituency tied up, the black vote – yet I don’t see anyone here interpreting their characterization / observation as racist or race baiting, or near racist. This is a double standard.

    Tell me, how should Clinton characterize her cohort – what should she call it? She is identifying a vital component of the electorate – again, what should she call it?

    angler said:
    “I wrote close to the edge “on race”, not racism. That is, I don’t think Clinton is saying something that elevates one race (whites) above another (blacks), and thereby advocates racial supremacy. I do think that this is close to edge of saying that race, and which race backs which candidate, should be the main concern for those trying to figure out who should be the nominee.”

    No, she is identifying her cohort, and saying that that cohort will be pivotal in the fall. That’s true. Team Obama does this all the time. What else could she have said that would have communicated the objective facts? That’s not a rhetorical question. You seem to be nitpicking to find an excuse to brand her with the label of racist or near racist, or race baiter. You are applying to her standards that you do not apply to Team Obama. Had she simply referred to the “working class” or “blue collar workers” who voted for her, you can bet the cry of racist would have been leveled at her for the implication in her statement that black people (who did not vote for her) did not work.

    This tactic by Obama and his surrogates is despicable, and we should not sit still for it.

  • Belligerent Academic said:

    Check above. Now, rather than look to someone else ,why don’t you have a stab at justifying YOUR defamation of Clinton? Answer for yourself.

    Can’t? Thought not.

    That makes you a fraud, son.

  • McCain is going after Roe v Wade, and has said he will appoint Justices that will overturn it. Not that it matters much to me, but if Democratic women are willing to give up Choice because their panties are in a bunch due to their candidate Losing a fair election then go ahead. If they want the war and Bush policies to continue and drive up the debt for their children and grandchildren that is fine with me, my family will survive. If they are happy with $4 gas, foreclosures, food shortages, 46 thousand military men and women ordered to Iraq who were labeled by the military as medically unfit to serve, then vote for McCain. All because you couldn’t have your way, seems very childish… but tell your children and grandchildren you were on the wrong side of history and it’s your fault the country and middle class suffering got worse and they are paying for your mistakes and race baiting..

  • Belligerent Academic wrote:
    “For all my myriad flaws, I didn’t hop over to a blog full of Clintonistas and start challenging people to debates to chicken out on.”
    __________________________________________________________________________

    No you stayed here where you felt safe, and chickened out All bluster and hiding behind the skirt of another contributor (to whom I replied).

    Pathetic.

  • “There go Team Obama again”

    Go is a SYNONYM for goes I suppose?

    British usage. He’s not a Yank.

  • Winterbottom wrote, “…of course Clinton did not assert that [being] white was synonymous with [being] hard working. Indeed were is so, why would she employ the redundancy? If “hard working” means “white” why use it? “Hard working” whites, are presumably a subset of the population of all whites. The term “hard working” is used to identify that cohort.

    Sorry to leave you hangin’ buddy, but res ipsa loquitur (i.e. “the thing speaks for itself”). Despite this truth, I’ll translate for your sorry ass.

    Hillary said, “Obama’s support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening…”

    Translation: Her pause, transcribed with a comma, located between her use of the phrase “hard-working Americans” and the phrase “white Americans” clearly implied the latin phrase id est (meaning “that is” or “in other words”). Her implication was actually, “Obama’s support among working, hard-working Americans, [that is] white Americans, is weakening…” Leaving out the id est phrase does give her a pass. Her meaning was crystal clear.

    No, she didn’t assert that all whites are hard-working. No she didn’t assert being white is synonymous with being hard-working. She asserted that the only hard working Americans are white Americans.

    Are you with me so far? Can you see what follows from such an implication? If hard-working Americans are limited to white Americans, then it must follow that non-white Americans are not hard-working. That was Hillary’s deliberate and quite racist implication.

    Got it genius? I suspect not.

    You wanted parsing, so you got parsing. Anyway, consider yourself “confronted”–as per your request. Now, unless and until you develop “the capacity to put up”, fuck-off.

  • 90. On May 8th, 2008 at 10:19 pm, Ugh said:
    “There go Team Obama again”
    Go is a SYNONYM for goes I suppose?
    British usage. He’s not a Yank.

    I knew it! He/She/It denied this earlier! Talk about pathetic! Some sort of freakish Brit posts on the Internet all day/every day defending the sociopathic Clintons of all people. How freaking nuts!

  • angler said:
    The USA Today interview that Steve referenced starts out “Hillary Rodham Clinton vowed Wednesday to continue her quest for the Democratic nomination, arguing she would be the stronger nominee because she appeals to a wider coalition of voters.” I read this to say that Clinton sees her broad-based electability as the rationale for continuing, and then in the next sentence, she cites “hard working white Americans” as the most important example in this “broader base”.

    Quite so, and it is an important example of that broader base.

    angler said:
    “She did not say “vote for me because working-class whites prefer me to the black candidate, who I have been trying to associate with the views of anti-white racist statements of Reverend J. Wright, and all those watching this election should care more about what working-class whites want than other kinds of voters” but she’s close to the edge.”

    No, indeed, she did not say that or anything like it, did she? Simply asserting that she is close to the edge of saying so, is not an argument. You do not detail how you get from her actual statement to your conclusion. You can take her statement to mean anything you like, but if you want to validate it you are going to have to provide a rationale that reasonably leads from her statement to your assertion. You have not done so.

    angler said:
    “As an aside, Clinton’s decision to take an aspect of her electoral support and highlight it as the reason she will win is more than just a one-off remark on the appeal to white workers by the candidate. In the past 24 hours Clinton spokespeople, Harold Wolfson and Geoff Garin have made the same point.”

    As I noted in my last post to you, their reference is to a cohort that is white and working class. It is nearly entirely white because Obama has nearly the entire black vote. Again, when Donna Brazile heard the argument about Clintons working class cohort she exploded and interpreted that to mean the Clinton campaign was saying black people (voters) didn’t work. So, Clinton modified the description of her cohort calling them white working class or blue collar. Tell me, how many mine fields of imagined slights should she have to negotiate? Isn’t there a point where one might reasonably conclude such sensitivity borders on a clinical obsession with race?

    Angler said:
    “I think Clinton supporters would push back against a claim for Obama as the more deserving candidate based on his greater popularity among black voters. Democrats would go after McCain if he said he should be president because conservative evangelicals prefer him. In both cases critics could charge these campaigns with elevating a particular social group as somehow more indicative of the “real” American voter than all others.”

    But Team Obama does tout its grip on the black vote all the time. They are constantly telling us how dangerous it would be to alienate that cohort (i.e. nominate Clinton). Your statements above are at odds with reality, surely. Neither Clinton nor McCain for that matter, make their case for nomination on the basis of a single cohort. They do so based on the coalition of cohorts that comprise their base. They then enumerate those cohorts. Neither has said there claim to their respective nominations was based on a single cohort. What are you talking about? This is a canard.

    Angler said:
    “Of course, you have found in my original comment some criticism of Obama supporters for their over-the-top attacks on Clinton. By pushing the Clinton comments as examples of her racism, Obama supporters only keep alive antagonism with Clinton supporters. I’m saying that they are playing into the hands of Clinton diehards by doing this, too.”

    Agreed. These attacks only serve to push Clinton’s constituents into the arms of McCain, not Clinton diehards. They can serve no useful purpose at this point. At one time they were useful in galvanizing the black vote for Obama, but I see no rationale for continued use of the tactic for the remainder of this primary season.

    Angler said:
    “Clinton’s remarks on electability highlight the problem she faces in that she’s in a position where polarization, within the party rather than between parties, appears to be the most viable option for keeping her hopes alive. If by some surprise Obama can be made to seem unelectable to enough Democrats she becomes the default nominee. Since Obama has not self-destructed, the only way Clinton can raise doubts about his electability is to attack. You then get back to where and how to attack. For the good of humanity, I’d like to see the attacks be about Obama’s policies not his constituents. Unfortunately for Clinton, she and Obama share a lot in common on policy, and attacks on healthcare mandates, Iraq War policy, and even the gas tax have not done much damage.”

    This is naught but sophistry. Team Obama constantly allude to fracture in the party if their candidate in not nominated. Clinton’s strategy is indeed to argue that Obama is unelectable in the fall. What’s wrong with that. This is an election contest. Is Team Obama’s overweening sense of entitlement so great that they truly believe they should be given a pass,“[f]or the good of humanity . . .”? Spare us the hubris. The straw man argument that Clinton is attacking Obama’s constituents is baseless. She has not attacked his constituents and you have provide zero evidence to the contrary.

    Angler wrote:
    “Attacking on who has the most desirable voters-based on the USA Today interview, who is most acceptable to working-class whites–not only substitutes election demography for policy, it also plays into a well-worn Republican party pattern of exploiting white fears of black social and political power (unless one believes that the 1988 Willie Horton ads were simply a reasoned critique of prison furloughs).”

    Ah, so now you get there – link Clinton to the republicans, Lee Atwater, and Willie Horton ads, i.e., Clinton is racist and is using racism to “steal” the nomination.

    Though stylistically you presentation is more competent and polished than that of your fellow travelers, you are nevertheless, offering the same smoke and mirrors, the same assertions, the same claims that your opponent is a bigot. Despite your acknowledgement of the accomplishments of the Clinton’s in the area race, you still, in the end, tar them as racists. You should be ashamed of yourself.

    Angler wrote:
    “They could do themselves and their foes a great service by battling Obama on ground other than his ties to Reverend Wright and the racial breakdown of the primary vote.”

    Oh, absolutely. Maybe you’d like them to roll over for you too. Yes, let’s allow Team Obama to threaten fracture of the party, or even ethnic violence if Obama is not nominated. Let’s ignore that for twenty years Obama lauded his spiritual mentor as teacher and friend, then threw him under a bus when it became politically expedient to do so. Let’s be nice to Obama at all costs. Which planet is Obama orbiting? I’ve seldom encountered such all-consuming self-regard. Too precious by half.

    “Obama supporters could let the “hard working” jab bounce off, and give the Clinton supporters, if not the campaign’s leadership, a chance to back away from polarization.”

    Spare us the parsimony. If there is one attribute that has defined Obama’s campaign it has been his cynical use of race-baiting to energize his base.

  • JDW… maybe you didn’t hear the “dog whistle” in Hillary’s statement. I take you at your word. But Joe Conason did, and if there is a man more loyal to the Clintons in the US of A, I’d be hard put to it to name him. Check it out:

    http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2008/05/09/clinton_remarks/index.html

    (Sorry… don’t know how to make that a link.)

    Joe thinks Hillary “misspoke”–and maybe she did. I’ve never been a big Hillary fan, though I voted for Bill twice and thought what the VRWC did to the two of them back in the 1990’s was a disgrace.

    But people aren’t just imagining the unfortunate racial content of the apparent equivalence in Hillary’s remarks between “hard working Americans” and “white Americans”. Possibly–probably, even–Hillary did not mean it the way it came out. Then again, Obama probably didn’t mean his remarks about people clinging to gun rights and religious issues because they had given up hope of having their economic problems addressed by politics, the way they came out. But that didn’t stop the media from having a heyday with it, or Hillary from exploiting it.

    Joe Conason is no Obamabot, yet Hillary’s statement freaked him out enough to express public dismay about it–even though he gives her the benefit of every doubt, and is sure she didn’t mean it the way it sounded. (And I think, or at least hope, that he’s right about that.)

    Clearly, your mileage varies. But please acknowledge that dismay over what Hillary said isn’t purely partisan.

  • JDW, first off I love you man, and I love Hillary. I also love Belligerent Academic and Barack Obama. Clinton and Obama and Edwards beat my candidate, Dodd. I still loved them all. Then Clinton and Obama beat my next choice, Edwards, but I still love them. Go figure. It must be that they’re all Democrats (you are one, aren’t you? If not, that love thing is on hold).

    I respect your passion for online debate, which is indicated by your many posts here. You’re smart enough to know it’s a dodge to ignore the main point of the counter-argument. No one disputes the numbers on who is voting for whom. The issue is rather why Clinton is making her lead among “hard working white Americans” the dominant reason for her candidacy in the aftermath of the May 6th primaries.

    You say that Clinton is merely stating “objective fact,” and ask “how else should she characterize her cohort?” Sorry but the question that USA Today asked was “how do you expect to win the nomination?” not “how would you characterize your cohort?” She could have answered this in many ways. As I suggested above, talking about her ideas is another option. Talking about winning Indiana and narrowing the gap in NC from where it was in April is another. Instead of these, Clinton chose instead to highlight her support among white workers. Wolfson, Garin, Clinton bloggers, the veritable “Team Clinton” if you will, have said the same thing today. Specifically, Clinton said that she had “a much broader base to build a winning coalition on” and then highlighted working-class whites as the key feaure of that base. She was talking not about the objective facts of the vote but about why she thought she would, and should, win the nomination.

    Your claim that she was just stating the facts ignores what she was asked.

    Your next point is that Obama is in fact the one has been pushing his support among blacks as an electoral tactic; “Obama touts his appeal to this cohort as an asset in the general.” You reiterate this later as a frequent talking point for “Team Obama”. It’s a variant on the “he did it first” line of jusification, except that you claimed that Clinton had not been trying to campaign on who was voting for her, just stating facts innocent of intent. So not only is Clinton guiltless of trying to push her success with white workers as a reason for getting the nomination it is Obama who is the REAL race-carder because he’s the one telling America that his support among blacks is a reason to vote for him. Since you’ve been very demanding of other thread posters to back up points and reply to you, I’d like to ask for some examples of these statements from Obama himself or his equivalents of Garin and Wolfson (say Plouffe and Axelrod), not a thread poster but the candidate who is being used in an equivalency argument here.

    The conceit of the Clinton campaign on the race issue is to take deep offense that Obama supporters took offense at something a Clinton supporter said and then act the part of the innocent and deny that it was ever said. That is, throw out a somewhat ambiguous remark on the racial dynamics of the campaign, get a swift pushback from Obama, and then call them reverse racists. You and I and the rest of those with no life can have it out all night on this thread (thanks for this forum Steve), but my hunch is that May 6 marked the day when a critical number of Democrats stopped listening to this line of attack. Even Belligerent Academic dropped this to go watch hockey.

    Again, the Clintons have done great good for America. Every Democrat appreciates that. They came out of the post-Civil Rights South and they didn’t want the campaign to go where it’s gone. Lets move the campaign to what the best policies for a Democratic administration should be and admit that each candidate has won some votes.

  • #90.Ugh said:

    “There go Team Obama again”
    Go is a SYNONYM for goes I suppose?
    British usage. He’s not a Yank.”

    ________________________________________________________________________

    No genius. “Go” is used because the subject is deemed plural. As in, there go John and Mary. Here “Team Obama” represents Obama, his campaign, his surrogates, and even functional illiterates such as you and the other inadequate (who may be you) who feels the need to post on this. That is to say, Team Obama is more than one, like, oh, “data”.

    Now, do tell me, because I really want to know this, what is the British usage of “go” in this context. You’ve got me stumped, and I’d really like to know. Come on Einstein, enlighten me. What on earth is the usage to which you refer?

  • JDW wrote: “Now, do tell me, because I really want to know this, what is the British usage of “go” in this context. You’ve got me stumped, and I’d really like to know. Come on Einstein, enlighten me. What on earth is the usage to which you refer?”

    Haven’t we wandered pretty far afield here?

  • Hey JDW, I was busy writing the last post when your add on came in. I get the feeling you are a last word kind of poster so I won’t try to have it myself. This is a kind of valedictory, as I’m a cowardly tv-watching wimp like the rest of the people who battled with you but eventually logged off. You rule! Your rightesous put down will say it better than I ever could, but I will say in advance to your reply that calling people names like ridiculous, sophist, despicable etc is not enough to win the day because we really aren’t, and neither are you.

    The issue here is what is Clinton’s rationale for her campaign. If it’s that she’s the one who white workers like most, that is an argument based on race. I think she put it out today to get a rise out the media and from Obama and she succeeded at least in the blogosphere.

    Obama (not his thread posters, they are mere mortals like you and I who get huffy) argues for a new kind of politics that transcends these categories. He seems like some kind of satanic charlatan to you, which is too bad, but that’s his line, and if the policies of O and C are similar then I’ll opt for Obama because I like that discussion of America better than the one presented by Clinton right now. Edwards had the most transformational case for what he would do as president but the voters turned it down. Obama at least offers a chance to break out of the last two generations of campaigning and possibly out of the identity politics that have made us all sick and very tired.

    I know,I know … I must explain how he will do that and I’ve only asserted it and not proven it and used analogy in a most imprecise way, made velied innuendos and generally cyber-farted all over the place. Seeing as this is a peer-reviewed comment thread I should be ashamed and probably top myself. Read the Audacity of Hope, it makes a better case for how Obama does that than I could, and please write to him about it.

  • # 94.Jane said:

    Well Jane, I will read Conason’s article, but of more interest is how YOU come to the conclusion that Hillary’s statement was racist – you don’t say. What’s this about dog whistles? The only thing I can think of is that humans can’t hear dog whistles. Are you saying only those attuned to racist over/under tone could pick this up from Hillary’s remarks?

    Fine. Then explain how you analyzed the statement and demonstrate that it is racist for the benefit of those who can’t detect it Surely you can do that?

    I agree with you that, in the full context of his statement, Obama did not intend the “cling” remarks to be taken in the way they were. Yet, two wrongs don’t make a right, and I see no evidence that Hillary is deserving of being branded racist.

  • J.D. Winterbottom said
    “Go” is used because the subject is deemed plural.

    And…REALLY, Team is PLURAL? Still LMAO!!!!

    No wonder you fail to understand racism with such a limited intellect. In the same paragraph where you expose your ignorance you have the NERVE to call other people people functional illiterates?

    Another UNEDUCATED DUMBASS RACIST for HILLARY!
    Keep it up all day/every day! Cohort your ass off !

    I acutally have a life, so now that you’ve proven my point…I’M OUT!

  • Time after time, when the Obama faithful are pressed to justify WITH SPECIFICS their charges of racism, they crawl back into the woodwork. The few who do attempt an answer get lost, spin in circles and quickly disappear up the nearest open orifice.

    Even when asked to detail Obama’s policy of “change”, they can’t. Their explanations get very New Age and hand wavy.

    The truth is they have no earthly clue what Obama stands for in concrete terms, or how he will, or even could, bring about this change They can’t define it because Obama never does.

    They are, in all respects except name, Moonies. The are cult followers, and Obama is their guru and savior. This isn’t a political campaign, it’s the Unification Church on steroids.

    Like any good faith, Obama worship has its mantras – “racist”, “change”, “The fierce urgency of now.”, “The audacity of hope”.

    Savvy adults will immediately recognize that when used by Obama, the latter two chants are pure snake oil. They are meaningless out of any specific context. They are the currency of the con-artist. The coin of an Elmer Gantry.

    We cannot let this man con us out of the presidency.

  • Senator Obama will offer voters whatever change they want that will get him elected. The reason he declines to be specific is because change means so many different things to people. If he is specific he will lose those who do not want what he’s selling. So, he makes you think he’s selling what you want.

    Obama’s goal is to hold up a mirror to your own desires. What ever you want, he’ll give you it. He is whoever you want to believe he is.

    He’s a used BMW salesman. Smooth, polished, nice smile and disposition. His pitch is: “What am I going to have to do to get you into this car, today?” He is sincere in that he sincerely wants to be president.

    Obama is essentially apolitical. He has no deeply-held political philosophy. That’s why he laid Ronald Reagan on us. It was a mistake, an obvious one, but he could not know that. He is politically tone deaf in that sense. Obama is an apparatchik with considerable oratorical skill. He talks a great game but in the end, he’s an empty vessel into which have flooded the desires and the hopes of the gullible.

    The man is a suit.

  • Jane said:
    “Haven’t we wandered pretty far afield here?”
    _____________________________________________________________

    You’re right of course, I shouldn’t rise to the bait.

  • JDW wrote: “Well Jane, I will read Conason’s article, but of more interest is how YOU come to the conclusion that Hillary’s statement was racist – you don’t say. What’s this about dog whistles? The only thing I can think of is that humans can’t hear dog whistles. Are you saying only those attuned to racist over/under tone could pick this up from Hillary’s remarks?”

    Yes, that’s exactly right. I believe the remarks were designed so that people could hear them differently depending on their inclinations. So that Hillary supporters like you could hear them as perfectly innocuous, and racists in West Virginia and Kentucky could hear them as “Pssst… I’m like you. I know you’ll never vote for the black guy. I wouldn’t either. So vote for me!”

    At least… I think that’s one way to interpret the remarks. You say you read the Conason piece, but you seem to have dismissed it. But why have you? Surely you know that Conason is about as completely in the bag for Hillary as it’s possible to be. Yet he saw a problem with her statements, which he dismisses by attributing it to her simply misspeaking. You say you don’t. Do you think Conason is imagining things?

    I don’t think Hillary is racist. In fact, I’m sure she isn’t. But if she wasn’t saying, “You need to select me as the Democratic candidate because white racists won’t vote for Obama”–what was she saying?”

    I think I’ll just go with what Conason wrote. 🙂 Anyway, I aswered your question already. The problem is with the–probably unintentional–suggested equivalence between “hard working Americans” and “white Americans”. If “hard working Americans” = “white Americans” that leaves the 35% or so of Americans who aren’t white (I don’t know the actual percentage; it may be higher) out in the cold. As if they must be, you know, “NON hard working Americans”. Again, I don’t think she meant it that way. (Who would want to insult such a large percentage of the electorate?) But it’s what she said.

    I’ll even submit that she’s correct that white racists won’t vote for Obama. But most of them won’t vote for Hillary either. If Obama is the candidate, we’ll have to win with blacks, non-racist whites, energized youth, latte-drinking eggheads, and people who can’t stand the idea of another four years of Bush policies.

    If Hillary is the candidate–and I simply don’t see how that’s possible at this point–we’ll have to win with old people, middle-aged women, and the minority of working-class whites who don’t vote Republican. Oh, and, again, people who can’t stand another four years of Bush policies.

    I just don’t buy the argument that she’s the only one who wins against McCain. I think either of them do. And I prefer that the nomination go to the one who won the most delegates.

  • Hillary, just go away, while you still have any face to save. And Bill, you better be get gone too, while there is still a market that might be willing to pay you $50,000, for that speech that not long ago would have brought you $500,000. Hey Buddy, you have some debts to working folks that need to be paid.

  • J.D. Winterbottom said:
    Savvy adults will immediately recognize that:

    Perhaps Savvy adults will immediately recognize that:
    TEAM IS ACTUALLY SINGULAR! still LMAO!!!!

    OK, now I’m out….

  • Time after time, when the Obama faithful are pressed to justify WITH SPECIFICS their charges of racism, they crawl back into the woodwork.

    JDW got his ass kicked in comment #91 (WITH SPECIFICS). Pretending it didn’t happen doesn’t make it so.

  • Everyone who has worker with Obama, many on both sides say he is honest.

    Everyone who isn’t scared or in line to get rich from the Clintons say they are dishonest.

  • CJ specifically gave J.D. Winterbottom the parsing, specifics, explanation, “point-by-point reasoning” that Winterbottom demanded, yet curiously, Winterbottom missed that post somehow.

    In fact, JDW is too obtuse to notice that nobody’s buying the nonsense he’s selling. His exercise in pretzel logic is an exercise in fertility. If we’re extremely lucky, we’ll never hear from this clown again.

  • No genius. “Go” is used because the subject is deemed plural [snip] Now, do tell me, because I really want to know this, what is the British usage of “go” in this context. You’ve got me stumped, and I’d really like to know.”

    In the UK and certain other spots on the globe, certainly: “Your team score,” “Oxford win,” “Company X are hiring.”

    In the US, they consider these singular…they’re collective nouns, you see: “Your team scores,” “Oxford wins,” “Company X is hiring.”

    This is easily verifiable with a little basic reading and a little paying attention. Surprised you haven’t picked it up. But under no circumstances would someone actually living in the US have missed this.

  • Actually, collective nouns can work both ways, regardless of one’s country of origin:

    “People often behave in the same manner, doing one thing in unison with the other members of their group. When these people are part of a collective noun, that noun becomes singular and requires singular verbs and pronouns.”

    AND

    “Members of collective nouns can behave in a similar fashion. When the members are acting as individuals, the collective noun is plural and requires plural verbs and pronouns.”

    Courtesy of http://www.chompchomp.com/terms/collectivenoun.htm

    (cg17 is partially correct in this case, but not in assuming that collective nouns always take singular verbs and pronouns.)

    Just thought I’d clear that up. Damnation, over 100 posts? You guys should get more sleep.

  • BA, you’re missing the point, friend. The question is not whether collective nouns ever take plural verbs in the US. In the examples I quoted, Americans would uniformly use singular verbs and pronouns; these constructions, and Frostybum’s original example, aren’t referring to “members of collective nouns” acting individually, but to a single entity acting as a whole.

    No Yank would pluralize “team” in this case, and it’s quite clear that Mr. or Ms. Winterbottom is wholly unaware of this American convention and got caught on it.

  • @ 113: BA, you’re missing the point, friend.

    Quite possibly; it wouldn’t be the first time. And, I’m not especially familiar with the UK usage of such things (they…uh…add ‘u’s to words…and they pronounce “aluminum” funny?), so I probably wouldn’t have picked up on it.

    It is also possible that we’re reading too much into it, and saying “Aha! A clue,” when the more appropriate response would be to point and laugh.

  • Ugh said:
    No Yank would pluralize “team” in this case, and it’s quite clear that Mr. or Ms. Winterbottom is wholly unaware of this American convention and got caught on it.

    My sister often goes to London on business and just confirmed for me that this is ‘British English’

    Why pose as an American?

  • I checked back here to see if that crazed troll Winterbottom kept at it. If he does cruise back, I’d like him to note as others have pointed out that he got served badly by post 91 and let it slide. He also ducked my request for proof of his claims that Obama was doing the same as Clinton. He chickened out and never answered. Specifics my freind, specifics, you must provide them or consider yourself some bad name you’ve hurled around here at everyone else.

    Finally, WinterB and the rest of the Clintonites out there who are all frothy over this should check out David Kurtz’s post at TPM. Kurtz says: “Maybe it’s general campaign fatigue, or the sense that the race is all but over now, but a month ago her remarks would have been a huge story, the dominant political story of the day.” This story isn’t getting the traction that it would have pre-May 6. The window finally closed on the DLC’s own Southern strategy. Whining and and name calling aside, the window closed. In November Obama will shut it down permanently. Rejoice.

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